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The Untold ref review : Arsenal – Liverpool

By Walter Broeckx, the Untold ref with a watch.

We had ref Marriner yesterday and well he had a rather good game. That is IF we forget the last 5 minutes of Fergie time and if we forget some decisions earlier in the game.  Just take a look if you still can stand it.

Min Type Text C/NC Pts weight on
4 OTHER Foul on RVP C 1 1 1
4 PENALTY As the free kick floats in and Diaby heads just wide,  Djourou is being held by Skretel with both his hands on his shirt so he cannot get to the ball. A clear penalty NC 0 0 3
5 PENALTY Penalty shout from Liverpool as a Liverpool player clatters against Djourou. But the Liverpool player throw himself against Djourou to make contact and besides that the Liverpool player took the ball away from Djourou with his arm and it should have been a handball against Liverpool which was the first foul in this incident C 1 3 3
6 OTHER Foul from Arsenal C 1 1 1
6 OTHER Foul from Arsenal C 1 1 1
8 OTHER Foul on Clichy advantage given C 1 1 1
12 OTHER Foul on Walcott given C 1 1 1
14 OTHER Foul on Koscielny given C 1 1 1
16 PENALTY After Koscielny hit the cross bar the ball comes to Walcott who shoots. The ball hits the arm of Kuyt. Kuyt spreads himself to make him as wide as possible. This is a deliberate move with the arms and should have been a penalty for Arsenal. NC 0 0 3
17 OTHER Foul on Eboue given C 1 1 1
19 OTHER Foul from RVP C 1 1 1
25 OTHER Foul on Koscielny given by assistant C 1 1 1
25 GOAL Van Persie scores but he is offside. The goal is disallowed and this is correct C 1 3 3
27 OTHER Foul from Djourou C 1 1 1
28 OFFSIDE Offside against Caroll C 1 1 1
30 OTHER Stong tackle on Nasri going through the man C 1 1 1
30 CARD The ref gives a card against Flanagan for this C 1 2 2
32 OTHER Foul from Wilshere C 1 1 1
33 OTHER Foul on Eboue given C 1 1 1
33 CARD Skretel gets booked for his late tackle C 1 2 2
35 OTHER Cesc is being tripped without the ball in sight just outside the penalty area. Should have been a foul and a yellow card against Mereiles. NC 0 0 0
35 CARD Mereiles should have been booked NC 0 0 2
41 OTHER foul on Diaby advantage given. A bit risky but correct C 1 1 1
44 OTHER Foul from Koscielny given C 1 1 1
45 OTHER 2 MINUTES EXTRA TIME. The ref stops after 2:05 seconds when the ball is halfway the Liverpool half C 1 1 1
46 OTHER Foul from Diaby C 1 1 1
53 OTHER Foul against Arsenal C 1 1 1
55 OTHER clash of heads betwen Carragher and Flanagan. The ref stops play immediatly C 1 1 1
67 OTHER Foul from Liverpool C 1 1 1
76 OTHER Tackle from behind on Koscielny C 1 1 1
76 CARD Shelvey gets a well deserved card for a needless challenge when the ball was already going out C 1 2 2
84 OTHER Foul from Arshavin not given NC 0 0 1
84 OTHER Foul from Song given C 1 1 1
86 OTHER Foul from Clichy C 1 1 1
89 OTHER Foul on Nasri not given NC 0 0 1
93 PENALTY Push in the back of Van Persie in the penalty area. Sounds familiar or not yet? NC 0 0 3
94 OTHER Foul on Song C 1 1 1
97 PENALTY Spearing clips the right leg of Cesc and the ref finaly gives Arsenal a penalty C 1 3 3
97 GOAL Van Persie scores and nothing wrong with the goal C 1 3 3
99 OTHER Liverpool kick off and try to shoot from distance. Szczesny has the ball in his hands and kicks it out at 98:10 on the game clock. The 8 minutes injury time are over. The ref can blow the end of the game as it was only Liverpool who had been wasting time during the game. When the extra time is up, you don’t give the time wasting team another chance to get something from the game. NC 0 0 1
99 OTHER The ball is around the same area as where it was when the ref made an end to the first half but still he lets the game continue. Game clock 98:30. There is no real threat to the goal. Why doesn’t he blow the end of the game? Only he knows. NC 0 0 1
99 OTHER Foul just outside the penalty area game clock 98:40. It is a foul and it is outside so the call itself is correct but why are we still playing? C 1 1 1
100 CARD Eboue gets a yellow card for an argument with Lucas C 1 2 2
100 CARD Lucas gets the same card C 1 2 2
101 PENALTY The ball comes off the wall and Eboue clatters in the back of Lucas who goes down. The ref gives a penalty. The ball was not in reach or in control for Lucas and when he stops his run he commits an obstruction on Eboue. So it should have been the other way round. And if the ref considers this a push in the back then why hasn’t he given it in the 93the minute when Van Persie was pushed in the back at the other end? NC 0 0 3
103 GOAL Kuyt scores and with the kick itself was nothing wrong. The ref could not cancel this C 1 3 3
103 OTHER The ref blows the end of the game after the penalty. He should have stopped the game 5 minutes earlier NC 0 0 1
             
    TOTAL   36 51 69
    %   76,60% 73,91%  
             
  CARDS   5 6 83,33%  
  PENALTY   2 6 33,33%  
  GOAL   2 2 100,00%  
  OTHER   4 8 50,00%  
             
  TOTAL   13 22 59,09%  

 

So it is interesting to see that on the overall score he had a rather good score. This comes from him calling a lot of fouls correct.

But when we look at the important decisions his score goes down a lot. It all had to do with the penalties. Arsenal should have had 3 penalties.

The blatant holding and grabbing foul on Djourou in the 4th minute should have been a penalty. It was clear to see how Skretel almost pulled Djourou his shirt up to his shoulders.

LOOK HERE FOR THE IMAGES Djourou being held

At first sight I thought the penalty call for handball against Kuyt was not a penalty. But in the replays it is clear to see that Kuyt is spreading his arms to block an attempt on goal. So it is him moving his arms away from his body. I know the ball came from close range but if Kuyt would have held his hands close to his body the ball would have gone on goal. Not saying it would be a goal for sure but it was a penalty. If you jump in front of the ball with your arms spread you are doing a foul. This was the way a (handball) keeper spreads himself and as Kuys is no keeper he cannot do it like that.

Let us come to Fergie-time or extra extra time. It was clear to see for everyone that there was only one team trying to waste time: Liverpool. Now if Liverpool would have scored before the 98th minute we would have no argument. Then it would be bad luck. But when a team that has done the time wasting is behind at the end of the extra time then as a ref you should stop the game when the time is up.

Time wasting is against the rules. Refs should give yellow cards for time wasting. Refs should give extra time for time wasting. This extra time is in fact given to make the time up that the goodwill team has lost during the game. At no point in the game has Arsenal tried to waste time. So why on earth did the ref let the game carry on after the end of the extra time?

By doing this he has given a very wrong signal because he has rewarded a team that has done all it could to waste time. And for me as a ref this is the most disgusting part in fact. That he gives a penalty for the collision between Eboue and Lucas, if he thought it was a foul then he can give it. This is a split second decision you have to make as a ref. And you can make mistakes.

But to let the game continue after the 8 minutes extra time, THAT is a real bad and well over thought decision. He knew the time was up and still did not blow his whistle. Why? Only he knows. And as we are in England: the truth will never be heard. In Holland they would have put him in front of the camera and asked him why he did this and then he had to answer this in public.

The happiest man in the crowd will have been the person who has given his name to this extra time.

162 comments to The Untold ref review : Arsenal – Liverpool

  • Dark Prince

    the ref was an idiot to add another 5 min. But we too should have kept our composure. Lets not forget that Chelsea is only 2 points behind us. Title is still within our range… Teams will play a defensive game at Emirates and the ref’s too will not be half as good as we had ystrday. Lets get together and finish this off in style startin at White Hart Lane. Its time we convert it into Red n White Hart Lane!! 🙂

  • Mandy Dodd

    Interesting review, a common thread to what seems to happen to us these days. I have been critical of Eboue – think he fell for it too easily but this puts it into a different perspective. But we should have cleared our lines before that incident.
    The amount of time added on seemed bizarre. Some sites claim it was due to us taking too long over our goal celebration…right!..
    I just want to get this season over and done with – seems like nothing has gone for us and we get kicked where it hurts whenever possible. But at times, we seem to have been only too keen to assist those who revel in our misfortunes. Our defending is naive, some players at times lack discipline and responsibility- and this needs sorting on the training ground.
    This team look so nervous, you just knew we would blow that lead!

    On the subject of refs, see the Mancs have Lee Probert on tues against Newcastle – can only see one outcome there…

  • Justin

    Good one Walter!!
    I can understand clash in the box going either way, but why were we playing after 8 (max 9) minutes?

  • Arick

    Exactly Walter, how on earth can it be a penalty if the guy doesn’t even have the ball is beyond me and worst is it was going towards the corner flag, so in no way a goal/shooting opportunity.
    Bullocks! again robbed by the ref, getting tiresome 🙁

  • WalterBroeckx

    A possible conversation over the head sets between two persons in minute 97.
    R.W.: A, what are you doing?
    R.A.: P, it was a penalty what could I do but give it?
    R.W.: do you know who is in the stands? Our boss! For Gods sake do something.
    R.A.: I must finish the game, time is up.
    R.W.: NOOOO!, wait let them have another go and if needed another go.
    R.A.: are you sure?
    R.W.: YESS, you will lose the faith of the rest you know!
    R.A.: Okay, I will let them have a few attacks then.
    R.W.: Good Andre. Nice boy
    seconds later:
    R.W.: Why don’t you give a penalty for Liverpool?
    R.A.: the foul was outside, what could I do?
    R.W.: Just make sure they score, just do something! Or you will regret this!
    R.A.: Oh, well…er… okay… I’m trying my best. if only one would go down and fall to the ground
    R.W.: there there there .. blow BLOW BLOWWWW!!!!
    R.A.: Okay, I think I will get away with that. The pundits will love this, Fergie will love it. Mmm, this should be helpful in the future I think.
    R.W.: A, you have saved our day. Just make sure you blow for the end if Liverpool scores.
    R.A.: I will, I will don’t worry.

  • A Casual Observer

    Can’t we focus on the REAL issues like Wenger, naievaty, the ‘end of the day’, the word ‘pathetic’, spending money, and Eboué costing us the title rathar than being sore losers banging on about the ref??

    We should be betterer than that and Wenger should BUY world class players who would just be gooder enough to win me cups…

    …oh wait – what am I saying?

    Nice review Walter – I agree with pretty much everything.

  • Justin

    One suggestion Walter- Can you review those Mancs games also? I think we can see nice big difference there. I guess, it is not too much to ask you watch them for 90 min (+10 if they are trailing)

  • Mick

    Just as a matter of interest as I did not see the game, did the ref add on any more time after the Liverpool goal or blow up for full time immediately. If not why not, I imagine they celebrated just as Arsenal did and refs normally add on a bit of time for the celebration just as he did for the Arsenal goal.

  • bob

    As I see it, there are two massive failures at work here – that is, in the specific game as it was actually played on the pitch. One is Arsene/Arsenal’s now manifest inability and/or unwillingness to redeploy to a strategic attack on bus-parking on the pitch. (This dovetails into the chronic not-clinical-enough nature of at least some of our attackers, game after game.) The other is the blatant horror of a Marriner’s ADDING three EXTRA minutes to the EXTRA TIME. (This dovetails into perceptions, like Walter’s transcript above, that the GREAT HELMSMAN – SAF not MAO – was there, on high, radiating his baleful malevolence, like Sauron’s Eye, over the troubled Shire.) There must be serious changes, methinks, at both levels. Down with Fergie; Up with clinical players. Go Gunners! Nihil Carborundum (Don’t Let the Bastards Wear You Down!)

  • Shard

    I’ve been blaming Eboue for the penalty. I realised Lucas created the contact, and thought Eboue should have been more careful and alive to the situation. But having mustered the courage to watch the incident again, it is completely clear that Lucas left the ball and ran into Eboue. I formed this opinion before reading Walter’s review since I didn’t want my perception to be coloured by his, albeit more educated, view. It was a foul on Eboue. We’ve been conned yet again.

    I hadn’t noticed the push on Van Persie. Not sure I want to go back and look at that to be honest. I had noticed the first penalty incident, and of course Kuyt’s handball. But how we can expect either to be given in our favour is beyond me. Those sort of things are only given against us, so the media and our fans can say how silly, stupid, idiotic that player is, and how Arsenal lack mental strength.

    There really is nothing to be done though. They won’t let us win. But realising that the penalty wasn’t really a penalty might actually help me move on from this. WE didn’t blow the lead. We were robbed of it. (We still have to improve our defending in such situations though) But ultimately, yesterday we lost points due to a piece of cheating, not due to Eboue’s stupidity. I think I can deal with that a bit better now. But I hope all these corrupt administrators, officials, managers etc. end up in jail one day.

  • Marcus

    Hi Walter,

    Of all your articles, whilst this is by no means the most incisive, passionate or devastating critique that you have delivered, it is to me the most telling.

    Listening to the game I found myself groaning – as if we were architects of our demise.
    (I found myself starting to nod my head to that verbal butcher, Alan Green….the apparatchik of the Football-Media Conglomerate)

    Reading your piece I see a different story….

    Yet again we have been mugged in broad daylight, and yet again the men in balaclavas hit run and hide, and we get lambasted for making ourselves an easy target by walking down the street…

    3 penalties not given to us in this game…..that is not a stat we are unfamiliar with…

    The denouement…..ah well….nothing we can really say is there…just another day at the office…..shame that the office is run by a mutant Brittas / David Brent hybrid…. aka Sir AF

  • WalterBroeckx

    Mick,
    no he immediatly blew the end of the game and Arsenal even didn’t kick off after the goal. And yes the celebrations of Liverpool players was as wild as the Arsenal ones.
    so if he thought they were outrageous and therefore had to add more time to the game then why didn’t he do the same after the Liverpool goal?

    Already too much time added on??? Then why didn’t he stop after the 98 minutes. or 98:15 or 98:30?

  • bob

    What will help, going forward, is a well put together and well publicized VISUAL indictment of the blatant calls AND non-calls that will have cost us the title. We’re already called whiners, wankers and whingers, so it doesn’t matter on that score. My plea is for UA and/or unbent fans to create this visual on CD and on You Tube and put it out there, with copies to every sports writer with requests for their commentary, or non-commentary, which is duly noted and published here. The larger battle needs winning in the court of public opinion and a devastating visual documentary could advance the larger cause by great leaps forward. Will anyone(s) technical step forward on this? UA?

  • stu

    We can blame the ref all we like but simple fact is that we were not good enough yet again….. how many great saves did Reina have to make…. none! I rest my case.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Bob, I will be making a summary of the most important wrong calls (both against us and in favour of Arsenal) at the end of the season. I will try to add the games, even the minutes of the games (a bit more difficult for the earlier games when I didn’t noted the time in the reports I think). So if any clever guy who has Arsenal TV online should put them together in a clip that would be a nice job done. Come to think of it. Maybe I could try to make the clips myself and put them together. A bit of work for the after season.

  • Shard

    @stu

    We weren’t good.. But we were good ENOUGH..

  • WalterBroeckx

    Stu,
    I have said it already that some of our players didn’t have their best game. So yes we werent great at all. But still this doesn’t take anything away from the fact that the ref on 3 occasions should have given us a penalty and he didn’t.

  • Marcus

    Stu…your case is hollow…if our games are defined by wonder opposition goalies, then we are the best in the UK, if not Europe…

  • Marcus

    The trouble is Walter…its a bit like trying to prove slander in a nudge and a wink environment….

    Especially when our player nudges the opposition, somebody somewhere (with a bright red hooter?) winks, and the ref yellow cards our player….

    We are victims 90% of the time of “ref-creep”…where we get penalized for peccadilos, or even just plain non-offences, and the opposition gets carte blanche…

    now their is an image…Lee Mason is going for his pocket…what will Bowyer get…its a

    white card!

    And that is a green light to Bowyer to carry on as before

    oh man…It would get surreal

    You would need Dom Joly reffing Man U with a white card the size of a tea-tray

  • GoonerVance

    Of FFS they had 4 teenagers on the pitch and it took a 96th minute penalty for us to score. That is OUR fault, no one else. Football is not a game of one moment it is a game of 90 minutes. You have 90 minutes to score, not just 1 second, 90 whole minutes to prove you are the superior team. We didn’t do that, not against a teenage Liverpool team at home. Was the penalty ridiculous, sure, was the time added ridiculous, maybe-considering Van Persie took off his shirt and ran around the pitch for 2 minutes celebrating, I think the time added was fine.

    Truth is everyone in the team and Wenger thought the job was done. It was why Wenger was so bitter afterwards because the thought hadn’t even crossed his mind that, “Hey, this is the Premier League, anything can happen. We can get screwed. Let’s make sure we do everything in our power to hold onto this lead if it’s for 15 seconds or another additional 5 minutes.”

    He is no manager, he is a desperate man looking for vindication in everything his team does and looking to blame anyone but himself for when the team fails. I don’t want him out. I think he’s a great eye for talent and the business of the game, but can’t he just accept that his vision-that is 6 years old now and hasn’t changed-that just maybe his vision needs a little tweaking. I know he is old and wise, but surely no one is infallible at any age and that trying to fight against the evolution of an idea or yourself is a sure path to self destruction.

  • bob

    Cheers, Walter,
    I’m thrilled by your news. I think that if you put together that “rough cut” on the basis of your research notes and analysis, then we/I/all would chip in to finance getting it polished to make for a smooth, glossy presentation. (This approach removes the “amateurish” criticism of the final look, which the media and other SAFFISH-miscreants will inevitably use to sidestep the content and critique.) It should also include your voice-over to narrate each of the clips. I would gladly lend support, heart, soul and dosh as I could muster. Walter, you and UA make a difference that matters. Kudos!

  • Marcus

    Maybe Paul Scholes could have a card emblazoned with his own image…

    as Alan Green and cronies degenerate into chortles of self-referential mirth at the comic ineptitude of the greatest English player ever – and giggle uncontrollably at the paradox – Dom Joly could wave a huge card with an image of Scholes on….

  • Shard

    @GoonerVance

    Oh so Wenger is a desperate man, rather than someone showing how much he wants to win? Who decides what the reaction signifies? No denying all you say in the first two paragraphs though.. But on moments like those are titles won or lost. If it were just one or two moments(or 5-10 even) in the course of a season then I’d probably be jumping on the backs of the team and say that they have to do better to overcome such things. But the sheer amount and the blatant manner in which it has happened, is bound to have had an effect on them. I think somewhere inside they believed they would not win the title. Not because they aren’t good enough, but because no matter what they do, it won’t be allowed to happen. It probably won’t be a conscious thought, but there is no way they do not know what has been happening this season.

  • jayj

    Liverpool FC are scum plain and simple, they’ve always played anti football never once in my life time have LFC ever played football the way it should be played. They look upto players like K.Danglish and all he did is what Carrick does now depressing just like his interviews.

  • GoonerVance

    I only call Wenger desperate because it’s an explanation for some of his childish behavior. He is better than what he showed yesterday. In his desperation to see the team win, he does things that are not fitting to his character. The way he approached Kenny Dalglish after the game, it was embarassing to watch. Dalglish had to overcome problems in that game as well. Andy Carroll went off injured, Carragher, Fabio Aurelio and Liverpool were already playing with 2 teenagers starting in the squad. Did Wenger expect Kenny to show him sympathy?

  • Mr Venger

    Trouble is the media cronies just cast aside any shouts of injustice we have. Penalty claims are just dismissed or not even replayed/spoken of. Its just easier for them to jump on the bandwagon and say ‘they need more shouters’ and the usual weak minded pro national toss. The compilation is worth doing tho, even if only for our own katharsis here on untold.

  • Shard

    @GoonerVance

    It was out of character, but it wasn’t embarrassing at all.. I don’t think Wenger refused to shake hands. Here’s a manager going for the title, with his team conceding from a 102nd minute penalty, that he believes shouldn’t have been and came about only as a result of the dive of a Liverpool player, and he says something to the opposing manager. It’s not like Dalglish was all sportsmanship himself. Basically, wenger behaves too well for his own good, so that on the rare occasions when he lets out his emotions he is criticised. All in all, it’s a non issue for me. Who cares about handshakes or abuses being thrown around even? Big deal.

  • Mr Venger

    Im starting to think maybe we have become the symbol that all the media and pro british brigade take pleasure in seeing fall, just to re-enforce in their own minds that we brits and our football philosiphy is right after all. No shouters, no agresive meathead leader with a broken nose barking and spitting, no long ball, too much tippy tap. Whinging foreigners. We suffer for all englands failings by being made an example of and taking some kind of sick retribution for the 45 yrs of hurt at the hands of johnny foreigner. Didnt wenger watch the world cup in 1966?

  • Shard

    You’re starting to think?? That’s very well put, but there is no starting to for me..

  • Marcus

    “Tippy-Tappy” …..lol…that takes the biscuit

    You mean passing the ball?

    I guess when Barcelona contrive to pass the ball, it is called something like:

    “Feelly-thrusty”

    Or when Man U pass the ball it is :

    “Footballus Maximus”

    ——–

    We’ll have none of that fancy “tappy-tappy” down ‘ere our son…we play football down coalmine with ball made of iron, no shoes, and 1 parrafin lamp for light….

  • Marcus

    Remember “power means nothing without control” well that was what the Audi advert told me…

    or I guess in the case of S-cross

    “power means everything without control”

  • Mr Venger

    I know your on the ball shard. Just had to put that one out there!

  • Marcus

    I would like to see refs work as Tag teams….imagine how exciting it would be to watch Lee Mason give one of our goals offside for absolutely no apparent reason, and then rush off and tag Probert,
    and let him deal with the flak

  • Mandy Dodd

    Agree Shard, the reaction of the managers was a complete non event, but it was a stick for the media/pundits to beat the manager with.
    Believe me, the players do know whats going on with the refs and Utd, several tweets have been revealing. And maybe it is getting to them. The more I see that incident, the less I blame Eboue. But, this sort of thing with stop watches happens time and time again. We need to stop giving away stupid last minute goals – we make it far too easy for these refs. They know if they add on a couple minutes, we are likely to panic and concede. This is nothing new, remember the 2 goals in injury time we conceded at home to Spurs 2 or 3 years ago. We need to be in the mentality whereby we say to the ref – carry on this game until tomorrow if you want but they will not pass. The refs may then have to find other ways to get at us but if I could just drum one thing into this team, stop making it so easy for the bent refs and biased media to do us. Build a seige mentality, stop imploding and feeling sorry for yourself.
    The team need to get over this and quickly. A loss mid week and we risk giving the English media a collective orgasm of gargantuan proportions – us dropping out of the top 4 and Wenger under real threat.
    Come on Arsenal – you can get over this. The refs and their master will win this year, but go into next season knowing what is going on, and play accordingly.

  • Shard

    @Mr Venger

    As I said, very well put it was too..

    @Marcus
    Another of your WWF analogies I see 🙂

  • Shard

    @Mandy Dodd

    Agreed. We need to improve.. Even though I think a lot of our ‘weak mentality’ and lack of confidence is borne out of the refereeing that has gone against us so often. I don’t think the players feel relaxed knowing that the referee at any time might just seek to screw them over. But yes, worrying about it only makes it worse and we do have to look at ourselves for that.

  • GoonerVance

    Of course the media takes out their anti-foreigner frustration on Arsenal, but it wasn’t the media that gave up the late goal in the Carling Cup Final, it wasn’t an English ref that sent of Van Persie against Barcelona, it wasn’t an opposing fan that grabbed Barton by the neck and flung him to the ground.

    Jackie Robinson broke into Baseball as the first black player and he had to be perfect and it wasn’t fair, but when everyone is rooting against you or waiting for you to fail, so they can pounce on you, you must be strong enough to be perfect or at least pretend to be perfect.

    Wenger speaks of bad luck and poor decisions too often, he pouts too often. You can’t get away with that when everyone is waiting to see you fail. He should shake Kenny’s hand and go in the locker room. The mentality that everything is going to go wrong comes from the reaction to when things go wrong. If you just accept that things will even out in the end you can overcome the adversity and learn to deal with it, but if you keep thinking about what might go wrong it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

  • Mr Venger

    One worrying thing is why it has to be down to cesc again to do something in a moment like that. He was terrible in the game but did well for the pen, but our other players didn’t do enough for me. Midfield or defense didnt commit fwd enough and take a chance to change the game. I know we play patiently but against a team who defends that deep we need to take more risks, and could have been a couple of goals up before the obligitory last minute dive in the box followed by the whistle and jubilation.
    With our predicament , looking at the wayb things always go we need 2 goals as a cushion , even tho sometimes 4 isn’t enough.

  • A Casual Observer

    Wenger didn’t refuse to shake hands – in fact he tried too… he was in shock from his latest mugging and said to ‘King Ken’ “that was never a penalty” as he walked over to which Kenny told Wenger to “Piss off”.

    And yet this somehow shows Wenger’s “lack of class”… the self harmers seem to think that Wenger should lie prostrate and Dalgiesh’s feet, licking his boots while wanking him off in celebration of a ‘plucky display’ and a lesson learned.

    I’ve heard so many gooners claim that we deserved it and we were crap – ignoring the elephant in the room and concentrating on absolutely anything except what matters, even if that be the lack of a handshake, and STILL – they manage to go through the mental gymnastics required to turn that one into a stick to beat themselves with.

    I do agree we lacked our usual game – I’m not saying we didn’t and I also felt that (in terms of being off their form) Fabregas was our biggest underachiever by a country mile. BUT this is not the reason we drew – if we had scored in the first 5 minutes or 4 goals in the first half, what is not to say that Marriner would have been so ‘on the draw’ that he would have done a Dowd on us?

    We won, the game was over and Marriner kept going and invented a penalty… the fans just blamed their team and clung to the brand they love, somehow believing it epitomised a sport they called ‘football’.

  • Shard

    Wenger speaks of bad luck and poor decisions too often??? Really? Or do the decisions happen so often that even though he’s restrained, at times he has to say it? ManU manager, fans, players, all cry bloody murder over a second yellow not shown to a Chelsea player (when they themselves got away wit a few bookable offences in the match) and that is considered as being the spirit of winners? It does not even out in the end..Unless you’re talking of the end being something like a generation or a lifetime, and even then I’m sure it won’t. Nobody’s saying we don’t have to improve. But if ManU had this kind of refereeing in their games, we would be 1st, and Chelsea would be second, and ManU would barely be in the top 4.

  • Mr Venger

    We definitely lack the spark in attack sometimes esp at home. Someone like freddie who makes the run in behind at the right time

  • GoonerVance

    Whining about spilled milk to your opponent is a momentary lack of class. That is your opponent, he does not give a crap about your ills. Have some respect for yourself and shut your mouth, shake his hand, and get on with it.

  • GoonerVance

    Yes, but Arsenal are clearly being portrayed as a weak team. you will not find that same sentiment when the media speaks about United. If you have the reputation as being weak minded than ANY whining is perceived as weakness. So don’t whine. Like I said, Jackie Robinson, didn’t smoke, didn’t drink, didn’t swear, didn’t pout, always had a smile on his face because he understood that people wanted to see him fail. So he didn’t give them an opportunity.

    For Arsenal, even one instance of whining is too much

  • Mr Venger

    Good point shard & casual. I second them both!
    too many fans seem to have become addicted to fully blaming wenger, the players and the club without thinking, like a wife whos taken too many beatings and blames herself for the black eyes. We really have been softened up. What happened to the days when we would all pull together and say fuck the rest of the world??

  • Mandy Dodd

    Nothing evens out in the end – the refs make sure these things happen at key moments we cannot come back from.
    The fact is , we have to beat the opposition, the time wasters, rotational fouls, the bus parkers and we have to beat the refs.
    Wenger has the money, he needs to put in place the players and coaches to do just that.
    I fear some of the current squad are lost to the cause, some want out – others seem to have the air that it will not happen for them at this club.
    As for accepting wrongs, I agree, Wenger is restrained. But it must be hard for him – I think like some of his countrymen, he does not naturally accept injustice so easily as some may. Maybe he should go on strike, or organise a resistance or even a revoltion.

  • Mr Venger

    Theres only so many times you can say’ just get on with it lad’ ‘dont whinge’ etc. Football has emotion and I see plenty of it every week, but Wenger has to constantly turn the other cheek? fuck that

  • Mr Venger

    And leave it out with the Jackie Robinson comparisons, i mean , how many times did he give away a dodgy last minute pen ffs?

  • A Casual Observer

    @GoonerVance – spilt milk is it? Just another happy accident?

    What would you do if someone strode up to you and kicked you in the bollocks – I’ll bet you a tenner you would ‘show a momentary lack of class’ in such a situation.

    Kenny Dalglish told Arsené Wenger to “Piss off” live on camera… the response I am hearing is that Wenger deserved it for “whinging”, “bleating” and “moaning”.

    Anyone else here got a few bullshit platitudes they wish to attempt to plaster over my eyes?

  • GoonerVance

    Kenny didn’t kick Wenger in the bollocks. So I don’t get your point. If you can’t even aim your anger in the right direction what kind of self-control do you have?

    And no, things don’t even out in the end, but the point of a MENTALITY isn’t to be CORRECT or TRUTHFUL but to be PRAGMATIC and USEFUL. Truth is, there is just no point harping on all of your misfortunes. It does nothing for you.

    We are all going to die one day, this is the truth, but we don’t walk around pissing and moaning about how unfair it all is, we make the most of every moment don’t we? That is a USEFUL mentality.

  • GoonerVance

    And Kenny only told Wenger to piss off because Wenger immediately came at him with his arms outstretched as if to say Liverpool with 4 teenagers on the pitch didn’t deserve their point. They did deserve their point IMO, they didn’t deserve the penalty, but they did deserve the point.

  • Shard

    @GoonerVance

    It’s one thing to say that it would be the ideal reaction to not say anything, and another to criticise a very understandable reaction. Besides, if it were the other way aound, Wenger would still be the one who is criticised. The media will portray anything the way they like, facts be damned. Shouldn’t it be down to Arsenal fans to get together and say a massive F*ck you to them? Criticising Wenger for that from an Arsenal fan is neither ideal, nor understandable and as such you deserve more criticism.

  • Shard

    Where does this deserve to get a point or three points come in?? If it’s deserving we’re talking about then ManU should not have even a shot at the title at this stage, and we should be in the clear lead. Who decides what is a ‘deserving’ performance and how much it ‘deserves’?

  • Mr Venger

    So if Kenny had outstretched his arms to Arsene, would it have been acceptable for Wenger t tell him to piss off, then fuck off, or would you be jumping on another bandwagon for that reaction too?

  • GoonerVance

    This is exactly what I mean. There’s more pressure on Arsenal players because everyone realizes that they are not just playing to win a game, they are playing to win over people who don’t care about Arsenal in the first place, only tantalizing headlines (it’s mission impossible from the get-go). So why give the media the ammo? Why does Wenger give the media the pictures of him with outstretched arms AGAIN (remember Ol Trafford last season)? It is better to be stoic even if it isn’t your genuine emotion.

  • Marcus

    Guys, you have got to laugh…

    this is a thinly veiled hate-campaign against Wenger and Arsenal

    He didn’t shake hands, just like Van Persie didn’t when punched in the ribs, and Fabregas didn’t exchange shirts after being kicked all game

    Its just so ungracious not to say thank you when you are sworn at, vilified, and given a good kicking! Doesn’t he know any manners!!

    The analogy is a prison warder who serves you a bowl of piss soup and expects you to say ‘Thank You’

    The media, and the football establishment, but especially the media and snivelling little shits like Alan Greene, who probably got turned down by every girl he ever asked out, have the power to rub shit into the wound, and like the Prison Warder…they do just that..

    lol..think too much about this stuff and you get depressed.

  • Shard

    @GoonerVance

    That still doesn’t explain why you choose to criticise Wenger.. Because it leads others and the media to criticise him??

  • GoonerVance

    Wenger can’t do anything right…period. So he shouldn’t do anything at all. He is fighting a losing battle with the media. They chop up your words, they decide to show the pictures of him sulking over and over, which he produces with regularity. Kenny Dalglish represents the every man, not that he is , but that’s how the media will portray him and no, it doesn’t matter who is at fault.

  • Mr Venger

    Your asking Wenger to go into paranoid lockdown, what do you think the reaction to that will be??

  • GoonerVance

    I criticize Wenger because he is smart enough to realize this. Why he plays games with the media, why he jokes around with them when things are going well, I dont understand because as soon as there is a perceived vulnerability they will fillet him.

    I know it’s a part of the contract to do media relations, but Wenger has so much ego that he will not give clichéd answers. He just HAS to speak his mind, even if it’s to his own detriment and his teams’. Even if his words will be twisted and portrayed in a negative way. Wenger is an interesting person, the best way to get the media off your back is to be uninteresting.

  • Mr Venger

    I see what your saying but this has been happenning for so long now I think he finds it harder and harder to not be affected. Then he ends up reacting to a situation he would normally hold it together in ,after all the torment thats gone on previously.
    Its easy to sit there and sya not to react, but have we any idea how much time and effort goes in all day every week only for it to be laughed at and destroyed by these decisions and the constant onslaught that preceds & follows

  • Shard

    Ok GoonerVance.. You think Wenger should act a different way. But your motivation is that the media should not find any ‘ammo’ against him? I’m sorry to disappoint you but they manufacture their own ammo. If he becomes uninteresting they’ll simply create a story about how Wenger has lost the plot, or he knows his team are useless and is thus refusing to say anything about them.. As you yourself said, he can’t win..

    But what I still don’t get because you haven’t explained is this.. How does criticising him, so that he is not criticised by others make any sense??
    In a situation like this, it is up to Arsenal fans to stick by their manager and tell the media to do one because they are talking crap.. Not pander to the bastards and criticise Wenger for being himself.

  • GoonerVance

    I know it’s a difficult job, and it is why I never assume I could do a better job, but he is the manager of one of the 5 largest clubs in the world. He is being compensated well, these are things that come with the job.

    If he is to run our entire football operation, if he is to have our complete confidence, if he is to be ARSENAL then he needs to do better controlling his emotions right now. It rubs off on the players, they are young and impressionable. They are not 33 year old men that have their mind’s set. It is why I fear for Fabregas, he has been here this entire collapse and he is still very young. Wilshere is now in the same position and we need to turn it around soon so that he keeps his confidence, and in that case maybe it would be a good idea for Wilshere to compete in under 21s. So he can hopefully have another successful experience to draw from.

  • bob

    Arsene said it verbally: Arsenal is “hard done by”
    And non-verbally: up thine, to Dickless
    Putting it that way still gets lots of people to think about what he is saying, even if so many are robotically Greened by the media spin-meisters, and it takes courage to react honestly. I say we back that display of courage – it is human and the content is right, whatever his/the side’s flaws. What an education he is giving many of us – considering, there are millions of Arsenal fans worldwide who could benefit from his being truthful. Recognizing that is not the same as saying he is flawless and need not change anything; but it is saying that he is a quality person and coach and stands up for his side, even as some of his players do not.

  • Marcus

    but going back to Walter’s analysis…I would like to see how many penalties we have been denied since Eduardo-gate….(not Eduardo-gait)……

    the last 2 seasons we seem to have been denied a penalty a game….

    lol…if the Sir AF’s head would have exploded like a zit if it happened to him

  • GoonerVance

    The media is not obsessed with Ancelotti or Mancini because they are boring, they barely speak the language and it inhibits their expression. Wenger needs to do the same. The media will try to turn the story into “he has lost the plot”, but people will bore of it without anymore salacious quotes and pictures.

  • Mandy Dodd

    The media…now theres a thing. A guy who has long been surrounded by erm rumours of certain things, stands accused of tax vagueries, you know tax, the thing that is designed to make sure hospitals and our troops are properly equipped – yet the media love him.
    Another manager will not speak to a fair proportion of the media, employed his son as his erm agent with all that may have alledgedly entailed – yet in the eyes of the media, he can do no wrong.
    Yet they pick up on Wenger for some non event spat with Kenny
    We all know why the English media hate Wenger – he had their measure from day 1 and was not afraid to let them know it. We know he sends his scoops the way of favoured French journos but who can blame him.
    Wenger – you have some great players, this summer, and a kitty. Spend well, get some help for yourself and shut them all up for good – we all know you can do it.

  • Mr Venger

    I wouldnt call an under 21 experience with England & Stuart pearce something to remember and give him a winning experience. More chance its a nail in the coffin! Just ask theo

  • bob

    @GoonerVance: Screw the media. Don’t empower them over yourself. Let Arsene be Arsene and let us support that in and out of the pub, in and off the blogs, in the faces of the Anti-Arsenal Arsenalites, and in our own consciences. And, yes, he is flawed and needs to make changes; and yes, we need to support him in that direction, with him at the helm.

  • Mr Venger

    And if you think they’re not obsessed with Ancelotti & Mancini your deluded!
    Just wait until there in our position, in a straigh fight with Manchester sky utd. Then we’ll see some bullshit for sure. Training ground bust ups & palyers going home early? mancini lostthe dressing room? where were man city in the table when all those stories came out??

  • Mr Venger

    Next you’ll be suggesting we get Alardice in as his number 2!
    Actually maybe thats not such a bad idea…

  • A Casual Observer

    @GoonerVance – When I asked for a few more bullshit platitudes to attempt to plaster over my eyes I didn’t actually think that you would take my offer seriously.

    ce-la-vie

    Although you did use a lot of capital letters in your ‘argument’… so I guess that means it’s entirely valid.

    All hail King Kenny – a true genius!

  • GoonerVance

    Wenger himself empowered the media when he felt the need to lead by words and not through example. Instead of building a young team and winning he just HAD to tell everyone first, what he was going to do, how he was going to succeed, and how wrong everyone else was for how they do it, and how did he let everyone know? By speaking through the media.

  • GoonerVance

    IN Wenger We Trust…not a platitude

    Kenny Dalglish is a bit of a genius for getting Pool to where they are now and initially switching formation to a 5-3-1-1. I can give the man credit for that, and I give Wenger credit with getting Arsenal to 2nd when even I thought it would be a struggle to make top four.

    But does Wenger have to come out and tell me that it is a success to finish 2nd. Uh, no. I could have worked that out on my own after the emotion of another trophyless season subsided, I could have looked back and said to myself, “All-in-all, not a bad season”

    You say Wenger should be forgiven for being human, where is that foresight when it comes to the reaction of the gooner faithful? No where to be seen because in the end it is about your perception.

  • jbh

    11 Not Correct decisions (per your analysis above Walter) 10 favoured Liverpool, 1 favoured Arsenal. So 91% bias factor against Arsenal. This seems to be the same number game after game. So we can probably conclude that all the refs are in on this fix.
    Time wasting is killing the game in the UK. Won’t be long until the attractiveness of the EPL will wane.
    The Lucas (stand in front of Eboue) then stop to let him touch me was very reminiscent of the Ryan Babel penalty (against Kolo Toure) in the Ch League a few seasons back.
    They are also pretty good divers and seem to have perfected the kick the ball against the opponents arm from fairly close range in the penalty box trick.

  • Mr Venger

    Liverpool are great ooh King Kenny is a genius, Tottenham are amazing , Harry- well what a manager! Arsenal – bunch of cunts, Wenger = joke failure. Trouble is when our own fans seem to follow those opinions what the fuck can you do!

  • Shard

    @GoonerVance

    When did Wenger say what he was going to do? How he was going to succeed? and How wrong everyone was?? I think you rely too much on the media to hear what Wenger says.. Wenger also never said that finishing second is a success. If you want to focus on one comment from that interview then pick where he said that he wants to win every game (or rather wants this club to win every game) and it hurts him when we don’t. If you don’t know why he said those things about it, then you don’t really follow Arsenal too closely. If everyone would realise themselves what is happening, he wouldn’t have to field such questions anyway. But most people rely on the media to do their thinking for them, and those that don’t also get worn down. He just demanded some perspective. Too bad if you don’t like it.

  • Shard

    I agree Mr Venger.. What indeed.. Except fight fire with fire. Like I said yesterday. I’m going to batten down the hatches and say you are either with us or against us.

  • Mr Venger

    The referees are also contaminated with these views of course. Indoctrinated by the media. Almost every game is a mistrial. Maybe its subconcious?? Just easier to shaft us than not??

  • Mr Venger

    On that point, anyone know who is the ref wed??

  • Mandy Dodd

    This is the attitude the whole club needs – what a player he is going to be.

    http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/szczesny-we-owe-the-fans-a-result-at-spurs

  • @Mr. Venger

    Tottenham Hotspur v Arsenal 19:45

    Referee: Martin Atkinson
    Assistant 1: John Flynn
    Assistant 2: Peter Kirkup
    4th Official: Stuart Attwell

  • Just in case you posted a comment and it didn’t appear, where I spot them I am removing comments that have nothing to do with the article. That’s a standard policy of this site – out of basic courtesy to the writer, correspondents are asked to comment on what he/she has written.

  • Mr Venger

    Who let the dogface out!
    Thanks. Martin A nott too bad for us but not expecting too much unless the ref is bob wilson

  • gooner80

    apart from the ref decisions

    the thing that annoys me most is that liverpool have been mediocre all season but just raise their game against the big teams, the number of their players injuring themselves trying to stop arsenal

    football is a bit like life “it’s not fair” I think you can do two things either sit down and blame the world and say it’s all their fault, or you can take responsibility for the things you do have control over, and in regards to arsenal that is their home performances, yesterday we didnt cut liverpool open enough and this has been the story all season, Arsenal particularly the players have to take some responsibility for the things they can control!!! the mistakes are far too much even for a low ranked premiership side let alone a top two, and cutting all the bias aside we have handed SAF the title on a silver platter, we gave the carling cup to birmingham and got cheated out of the champions league. Even the champions league we could have done something about it because we should have topped our group.

    over the past 4 years the number of mistakes has been diabolical and sure you can say “oh its just one mistake” but when you add them up it adds up to defensive problems even if the stats say we have been ok defensively, pre 2006 I dont remember worrying about the odd error because they were not costly errors, we have to own up to our mistakes because this is the only way we are going to move on, I totally understand we get screwed but I choose not to complain about things I cant control and sure highlight the bias but the silly mistakes is what has cost us dearest and this could have been stopped. if you keep doing the same things you will keep getting the same results and what annoys me is that it is probably a lack of concentration because the defense has less to do then most teams, Im not really talking about the game yesterday here but in general

    This may be a bit harsh but alumunia has cost us big time in three league campaigns, with the latest against WBA, he can have world class performances on his day but his day comes about once in 40 games

    having said all this JD has been a revelation and chesney, and there is some improvement but not in the the stupid errors

  • The Blaze

    Wasn’t pleased with the ref going on for too long.
    Wasn’t pleased with us going crazy and panicking at the back the moment we scored…

  • Prasanna Veeraraghavan

    Dear Walter and guys,

    I have been following your articles for quite sometime now. What a wonderful work you are doing.

    Frankly the system is seemingly rotten when it comes to the refereeing in the EPL. Seems like the media, players and the admin everything take immense pleasure in the same. Quite much has to do with the fact that most people address this as the best league, most toughest blah blah blah and this accounts for the lack of sheer sportsmanship and respect in the game.

    It has been decades since England really tasted success in football and I really doubt the administration and the league are really doing anything good to let them taste any newer success. Instead they take immense pride in the rotten system talking loud out about someone who really pinpoints the flaw.

    Unless you people or someone like you take it to the media and pinpoint the flaws overall, get some airtime and talk to the people there will not be any kind of change in the system.

    I come from a cricket crazy country where there existed a worser unsportsmanlike way of running the game. It still exists but the administration and the ICC took bold steps to control the corruption and the same still persists. England leads by example in this but I don’t really understand. Its really sad not only just the fellow competitors but also the media, the administration and also the fans by and large prefer to blame the Manager and the team than address the real issues that exist in the system.

    If not the english dream of excelling in the World Cup and Euro cups will always be a long long distant dream as it has been for decades now.

  • jayj

    Watching the Arsenal yesterday I noticed everytime we tried to play a 1-2 in oppositions 18 yrd box, Manu on the other hand would shoot we dont given the amount of chances we create, we dont need the extra touch but we never learn JUST SHOOT FOR FUCK SAKES. Reina wasn’t tested should this of been a Manu vs LFC ever you can bet your arse the manc would of shot in the same positions. RVP, Arshavin both have great shot but Walcott, Cesc and even Nasri love the extra touch. Looking back at the Henry days he would shoot given a sight of the goal.

  • jayj

    If the Premier league really believes itself to be the best then a voting system can easily be setup for the fans across all the divisions. This would eliminate the need for the ref to do an after match interview that has been requested by jo public and it may allow the neutrals to make judgement. FA record the ref report all the points on this report can be made public via the internet, a simple yes/no voting button and % score this will help the FA review the ref performance.

  • GoonerVance

    Not even concerned about the lack of long shots from yesterday’s game because Liverpool clogged up the shooting lanes with so many bodies it was tough to get a decent angle. What does worry me is that Arshavin and Walcott on the wings couldn’t do much against 2 teenage full backs.

    More on topic. Yes, the refs are out to get us, as is the rest of England, nothing we can do about it except pout and moan to console each other. If the refs are so crooked what is pouting and moaning going to do about it? It may make you feel better at the moment, but it also instills a doom and gloom attitude, “Here we go again syndrome”

  • Andrei

    Media drama and conspiracy theories aside a couple of comments on referee review. First, in penalty no call on Dirk Kuyt the ball hit his chest first and then his arm. I’m not sure about the rules but doesn’t it make the handball less deliberate? Secondly, you deducted points for “not blowing the end of the game earlier” three times. To me it is too biased. If you want to deduct for this do it just once. And even after “extra deduction” the overall score is surprisingly not that bad.

  • obichibz

    I have been reading your blog for nigh on two years now(time flies) and absolutely love it. This article and the comment section is part of the reason for that. You(Untold) are a fan first and objective viewer second. When we loose fairly, we loose fairly. When we are robbed, then we are effing ROBBED! After the game I was so bitter not because we were denied by the ref again but by the reaction of my fellow ‘gooners’, humans and other blog sites. This is why I say so. If you want to be a journalist then be one. If you want to support ARSENAL, then support every frigging thing that has to do with the club. I was so sad when I heard the news that Danny Fiszman(RIP) had passed and teared up watching Rocastle Tribulations on youtube(i was born in 87 and never saw him play). Love the ARSENAL FC. Don’t try to be a voice of reason, cos frankly we have all the media doing that for us. When the fans turn on their own players and the manager, I ask myself what is the point? So you say we shouldn’t complain when we get shafted by the refs time and time again(as Walter’s article clearly(statistically) show and then you complain about OUR own Players??!!! I say to you don’t complain as well(F**K off). Or at least stay away from this site. We know what is going on, Arsenal and Arsene have shown the English, from a footballing standpoint what they lack, so we are fighting a difficult war cos they want to say to us “You are wrong, We are right” The elaborate schemes by the media is infecting a whole lot of us and then some fans go to the Grove and transfer this on to the players e.g cases where you are scorned at for chanting have been reported. Support Arsenal F.C if you are a fan, being objective is for the journos who by the way do a terrible job of it. I do enjoy the comments of people like GoonerVance here because in a way it shows us what we would be if we didn’t see it all for what it really was and that is miserable. Keep up the good work Untold.

  • critic

    Two words (in dalglish style) “PISS OFF”.

    I guess next article will be about blaming stars for being an arsenal fan.

    😀

  • walter

    For those who asked (Bob I think) I have beendownloading the games and going to try to make a compilation of what has been going wrong. And oh, I even didn’t bother that much with games we won with ease as the ref didn’t affect the final result in those games.

  • Shard

    No..Just for having to be clubbed (in all it’s meanings) with the likes of you Critic.. If you can’t at least make a point properly then don’t bother saying anything.

  • Boyd

    “Eboue clatters in the back of Lucas who goes down.”

    No! The front of Eboue’s body never once come into contact with Lucas until they actually hit the ground. That’s why the commentator immediately says the ref has been conned.

  • Shard

    Do what you feel in your heart to be right. You’ll be criticized anyway.
    Eleanor Roosevelt

    It is much easier to be critical than to be correct.
    Benjamin Disraeli

    If you believe in what you are doing, then let nothing hold you up in your work. Much of the best work of the world has been done against seeming impossibilities. The thing is to get the work done.
    Dale Carnegie

    Criticism is prejudice made plausible.
    Henry Louis Mencken

    Since we cannot attain unto it, let us revenge ourselves with railing against it.
    Michel Eyquem de Montaigne

    The pleasure we feel in criticizing robs us from being moved by very beautiful things.
    Jean de la Bruyère

  • menace

    I am gutted by the way we have been treated by fate. Arsenal were not at our best but we played our football. We are shameless in front of goal and pass rather than shoot.

    Gunners that dont shoot!!!

    Our quality has not been compromised by the quality of officials but we have been robbed of victories. Arsenal have to win in spite of the bias and Arsenal will. Nothing is concluded but the taste in our mouths is bitter. Hopefully that will turn to sweet and ‘sugar’ and his ‘spuds’ are left dripping salt.

    I love Arsenal with or without silverware.

  • GunnerFanUSA

    Excellent review as usual! Agree that the ref did well except at critical moments! The ref seemed to forget about penalty kicks the whole game until stoppage time or more appropriately called OT (Old Trafford) time. The ref can have an overall good game and is allowed to make mistakes (he is human after all, I think) but his mistakes should not determine the outcome of the game (positive or negative). That’s all Arsenal and Untold is asking for, refs to be accountable and not decide the outcome! yet we’re the whingers. Unfortunately, we for some reason get negative ref influences almost weekly, while other teams benefit.

    Andrei, it was a handball on Kuyt, they showed the replay here in the states and hit his outstretched hand, not his chest. Even the commentator mentioned that walcott’s claims were correct.

    Also for those complaining about Wenger’s post game reaction, how do you expect him to react? Refs have been incredibly inept against Arsenal this year, from the Champions League joke ref at Barca, to the premier league almost every week! After a while, there’s just so much you can take without boiling over! And his response was pretty mute compared to how most people respond

  • bjtgooner

    Walter – once again a very informative ref analysis. I have been at work all day and have been looking forward to reading your analysis this evening. I was particularily interested in your take on the Liverpool penalty. At the time I thought that Lucas had deliberately slowed up, half barged Eboue and then dropped causing Eboue to fall onto him, it was as if Lucas had realised that the ball was leaving the danger area and his best chance of producing a goal in the remaining seconds was to engineer a penalty. Unfortunately the ref played along.

    I am constantly amazed at the unnecessary over the top criticism levelled at the team and manager – true fans will back the both through thick and thin. Some of the rubbish comments will be from nutters, manures, spuds etc. However, some “fans” foolishly seem to be led into the Wenger out movement without considering the full consequences of their actions.

    It is tough on the team at present, they have to play each match knowing that they will be getting kicked and not fully protected by the refs, they will be the victims of bad penalty decisions as yesterday, their efforts on the pitch will be the subject of biased tv analysis and to crown it all individual players and the manager are subject to witch hunts. They do indeed need to be mentally tough.

    Tank goodness Walter for Untold Arsenal bringing some realism.

  • Andrei

    @GunnerFanUSA I watched the game on Fox Soccer Channel and at HT they showed the episode multiple times. The ball did hit Kuyt’s chest first and then his arm. Warren Barton who is not an Arsenal fan by any stretch of imagination even claimed that was the reason for no call. I’m not a referee so I asked Walter for clarification. To me it made it 50/50 call but I’m sure about the rules.

    As for influencing the outcome if you read LFC forums they claim that ref gifted Arsenal a penalty to begin with and the second penalty was a make up call. It is a matter of which side you are on.

  • GoonerVance

    It is much easier to be delusional than critical or correct

  • Chris66

    I think a lot of this discussion misses the key issue here. There was an excellent article in the FT on Saturday about betting in football with the explosion if money in China. It now exceeds 450 billion per year, or more than the combined turnover of every football club on the planet. It is ridiculous to think it is not influencing the outcome of games. I watch the main betting indexes before and during yesterday’s game and the total goals was effectively 1.9 to 2.3, meaning that if 2 goals were scored the bookmakers made the maximum amount of money. Football is very hard to fix as there are lots of participants and variables but total goals is very easy to influence. Any game with a 1.9 to 2.3 spread that has 2 penalties in seemingly endless injury time
    Must be investigated. It explains all of Mariner’s strange decisions and ticks all the boxes but I see no discussion about it here or anywhere else as people get stuck in partisan bickering. It’s not Arsenal that are targeted but the game is now deeply corrupt.

  • GoonerVance

    And this is the end of the road we have just taken. We’ve gone from “Couldn’t create enough chances” to “The refs have it in for us” to “It’s a global gambling conspiracy”.

    We are a paranoid club and fanbase, not merely fighting against the 11 men on the pitch but fighting against the entire world, and you wonder why Arsenal crack under pressure.

  • Mandy Dodd

    I think the level the refs, authorities and media react against this team demonstrates the fear they have should we succeed.
    A capital based team, with a large cash cow of a stadium, hopefully stable ownership and management, an amazing youth policy, and a world wide scouting network, an ability to produce world cup winners, worldwide respect (in contrast to this country)and an ability to keep within the EUFA FFP rules with ease – once we break free of this trophy thing, we will be unstoppable for years.
    That is what the Utd / Liverpool / Chelsea / Spurs supporting journalists and pundits are so scared of.
    This team are almost there, the luddites that want to keep English football in the dark ages should not be allowed to win.

  • chris66

    Gooner Vance

    This is not an Arsenal conspiracy. I struggle to believe many on here who find endless excuses for how we have our own ability to self destruct, but there is a bigger issue at play here. Read this article on then tell me that this is just paranoid Arsenal fans:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/08314424-6571-11e0-b150-00144feab49a.html#axzz1JuLAZXjg

  • Shard

    @GoonerVance

    Ya. Sure.. It’s so easy to support this team.. Not only must we put up with the performances of the players, the referees, and the commentators. We have to try and explain the meaning of support to some of our own fans, all the while being accused of being delusional, or losers. So easy isn’t it? Anybody could do it.. I wonder why so many come on here and choose to side with the conventional ‘wisdom’ of the chest thumping, leg smashing, Wenger bashing, Ferguson grovelling, mind numbing, debt fuelling, media.. Must be really tough for that lot.

  • Pete

    @chris66

    Wow – quite a read!

  • Mandy Dodd

    But Chris66 – this is the English league – surely such things could not happen in our country, that sort of thing is for Johnny Foreigners! Our refs – bent / linked with gambling – how could that be, could never happen!

    Oops
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/4301613.stm

  • Shard

    @chris66

    Regarding that article.. Wow. It’s encouraging to see that at least it’s being talked about. It is the real elephant in the room that no one seems to consider. Even though the article doesn’t mention him but what did Bruce Grobelaar actually do back then? I’ve only heard something but no one seems to mention it properly (which is another sign that they are keen to gloss over it). If i were to guess, I would say England would be the last to move in this regard, because Germany and Belgium have already done something, Italy too. The English FA meanwhile has become more opaque in it’s functioning, and no one seems to even be talking about it.

  • Mr Venger

    From the Daily Shmail:

    1994 – Bruce Grobbelaar, John Fashanu and Hans Segers are alleged by a newspaper to have fixed matches.

    Grobbelaar is accused of being paid to ensure Liverpool lost to Newcastle in 1993 while the allegations against Segers and Fashanu relate to a Wimbledon defeat to Manchester United in the same year.

    Following two trials, the trio were acquitted after juries were unable to reach a verdict.

  • Shard

    Aahhh..Thank you Mr Venger.. Convenient that. Juries not reaching a verdict. It is a crime that is almost impossible to prove really. But it is a battle that is won or lost in the court of public opinion if cricket and it’s match fixing troubles are to be taken as an example. The guilty still get away though, if they have the right people backing them even after the accusations.

  • Shard

    Unfortunately, in my view, a large majority of people in England do think along the lines that are both propounded, and pandered to by the media and the stereotypes we draw from it. Many do believe that Britain cannot be the ground for such things. Britishers will not indulge in such things.. That is probably unfair of me to say, because I’m sure here, and even otherwise there will be lots of British people who do not think in that fashion. But the masses in any country, or just the masses in general, are liable to think stupid things. They probably feel that way because they are too stupid to look beyond what the media say, or they are not bothered, or the alternative is too disturbing to consider.. For me, that is where the battle is being lost. Public opinion. And this is where Untold is important, but as Chris66 pointed out, sometimes the agenda becomes too narrow (albeit out of necessity, and design).

  • chris66

    Mandy Dodd

    The reason I posted is that so much of this debate gets lost in what seems like whining when a result goes against a team, not just Arsenal, but any team. There are so many ways to bet on a game beyond who wins, especially total yellow and red cards, that really wouldn’t be difficult to fix.

    Although I understand the frustration that many feel about the seeming victimization of Arsenal, I honestly believe that it is because we, like others, are high profile clubs, that have a lot of money gambled on our games, so it is much easier to avoid the “unusual betting patterns” that seems to be the only thing the authorities notice.

    Allowing fixing of games to be the sole focus of any discussion on this issue just creates a cover for it to carry on. Remember, in the recent Pakistan cricket scandal it was not the outcome of the game that was in question but when the no balls were bowled. It is far easier to influence the decisions of one person, in the referee, than the many required to influence a whole team. Also remember that referees earn a fraction of what the players do and their is a principle in the game that their word is inviolate.

    How did 5 officials, including one behind the goal with a 100% clear view, miss the foul by Evra for a (non) penalty in the recent Man Utd vs. Chelsea game, or in the Man Utd vs. Everton game earlier in the season when Everton were through on goal and the whistle was blown for full time with exactly the amount of injury time indicated played despite there having been 2 goals in that time.

    Although this is an Arsenal site I think we are helping keep it covered up by allowing it to be seen through a partisan view. I highly suspect that if there had been 2 goals at the time (either 2-0 or 1-1) then even the Fabregas penalty from yesterday would have been turned down and today we would have been talking about that and not the real issue.

  • Shard

    @Chris66

    I appreciate what you are saying. But what we are, or rather Walter is doing here (heh..almost took credit there, sorry Walter) is showing a specific bias which we believe exist, through a game by game analysis. It isn’t everything. But it is something. And it is important. So far we only hear, oh it evens out in the end, every team gets bad calls etc. This is an admittedly limited attempt (although no less important for that) to show that such is not the case. The initial bit is showing that something is wrong specifically. Even talking about the larger issue can act as a cover since it becomes too abstract. This is involved in it’s analysis. Of course it is open to be called biased, but hopefully, it’ll at least lead to a debate on the issue.

  • C4

    We’ve been mugged again, this is getting ridiculous. We should have had 2 clear penalties early in the game which would have forced out the parked bus, and we would simply rip them apart from there.
    How the shirt pulling and pushing in the box and off the ball fouls on Cesc, and handball’s get missed is beyond me. We are NEVER given that kind of blatant leeway in any game. I really pray that if we don’t win the title this season, we take it next season, despite the cheating we know is going to happen.
    This just wrong, completely f$#@%ing wrong.

  • Shard

    C4 explosive?? 🙂

  • Mandy Dodd

    Chris, I completely agree with the nature of your post. As an Arsenal fan, I notice more what happens against Arsenal a lot more than against other teams but what I have seen this season along leaves me in no doubt that for whatever reason, some refs are not playing fair.
    As you say, there is just too much money involved with gambling syndicates these days.
    I am not sure if these refs are making money or are just biased, or even scared of certain people.
    I also agree with your assertion on us self destructing – if refs are bent, we make it extremely easy for them at times.
    I spent a few years of my life in the fair city of Naples – that place is a classic example of whereby once corruption gets a hold, is spreads everywhere until it permeates all aspects of existance and becomes uncontrollable. I just hope the powers that be have enough sense, clout and honesty to stop this sort of thing taking hold of our game – because corruption could kill this game as we know it.

  • gooner80

    WALTER

    I might have a suggestion you might be interested in WALTER, you take 3 teams (one being Arsenal) the other MAn U and a relatively neutral team say Aston villa and then take a RANDOM sample of each of their games and see if there is clear bias, a sample is not conclusive but is usually a very good indicator without being timing consuming if you took say 38 games which is 10% of all premiership games 1/3 is already done with arsenal I think you would be able to make some conclusions, I think people are crying out for a comparison, you could even do a chi square test which would tell you whether this is just random or without a shadow of a doubt down to something else in this case BEING BIAS

    I could work out the chi square test for you or Im sure Dog Face could easily do it, it is getting to the time we need conclusive PROOF

  • Mr Venger

    Thats a great idea.
    How about teaming up with another blog from one of our enemies ( long shot I realise !) and comparing results too.

  • walter

    No Shard, I just try to do my bit. In a way I must say that when I started this back in August last year I was hoping to say at the end of the season : yes, it has evened out at the end of the season.
    But for the moment it doesn’t and it is far from even when I look at all the wrong decisions.

    The readers/commenters like you are very important for this reviewing. Because even I am a human being and can make mistakes.

    Like I have said many times before: I would love to see this done for each game by 2 people like me who can put their bias aside (as much as is possible of course) and so get a more complete view on the whole situation. But this will stay a wet dream I fear.

    But without the readers this would be nothing so you all must and can take credit.

  • walter

    Chris66, as I live in a country that has no real gambling tradition those things are not familiar for me.
    But what you said well… made me think. What you say can be even worse than the SAF runs the PGMOL and has the refs in his pockets. Frightning.

    But I can only do it from my ref point of view and I cannot go deeper in such things as I really dont know much about gambling. Apart from the fact that the “belchinezen” have been working in my own country also (Belgium that is)

  • walter

    Andrei the reason why the Kuyt incident is a penalty is the fact that he spreads himself in an attempt to block the ball. If he jumps with his arms close to his body the ball may hit his arms and it will be no penalty. I couldn’t provide images as I was not working on my regular computer and for some reason it doesn’t work to upload images from the other one.
    But on the images is clear to see that he delibaratly raises his arms to make himself as wide as possible.

  • I’m a big fan of this site, and these ref reviews are usually perfectly fair, but I have to disagree on a few points here.

    On the first of the three penalties you claim we should have had: Djourou being held in the penalty area – I see your point that maybe refs should be tougher on this, but it happens all the time and Djourou clearly knows that, and as such did not appeal for a penalty at all.

    On the second, the ball was so close and went at Kuyt so fast there’s no way he could have moved his hand out of the way. You see a lot of that, and accidental handballs don’t tend to be given.

    I’m afraid I can’t remember the third one, where you mention van Persie being pushed, so I’ll leave that one.

    On the penalty Liverpool feel they should have got early on, it really looked like one to me, the kind that is given all the time. How’s it different from the penalty we did eventually get? Apart from the possible handball you mention, which I certainly can’t remember.

    On the penalty Liverpool did get, again, I’m sorry but it’s a stonewall penalty. How much control Lucas had over the ball is debatable, but it’s also not important, as apparently Djourou should have got a penalty even though he was nowhere near the ball. The fact is, Eboue needlessly pushed Lucas over and you can’t argue that that’s a foul.

    As I’ve said, I appreciate these reviews and the effort that’s put into them, and the accuracy they usually provide, but this article seems far too biased. There are clear problems with this team, and it’s not all the refs’ faults.

  • walter

    Mr. Venger, I like the idea but wouldn’t know how to find 17 other refs who would do the same thing as I do….

  • Shard

    @Walter

    You sir, are too kind 🙂 Oh for the day we can all say it did even out in the end.. But Gooner80 has a good idea there. A random sample should go some way to showing a pattern for other teams too.

  • walter

    Mark, about the Kuyt handball I just wrote my point of view before your comment.

    The Djourou incident he was held and pulled when trying to run from the back area until he reached the six yard line. I’m not saying you should give a penalty for each contact but this was over such a long distance it really should have been punished. And he did apeal but he is an Arsenal player so he knows they will not be given. 😉

  • Shard

    Actually Walter, that is very near the truth.. Contrary to popular perception we don’t whine that often. Mostly we just accept it. It is ManU and to a lesser extent these days, Chelsea that blow their top when anything goes against them. They are the whiners, but of course, English players like Rooney, and Terry never whine. They only show passion.

  • walter

    Gooner80 and Shard. Yes that would be a great idea. The only problem is that I really cannot find the time for the moment to take 3 games on every game day.
    A ref review takes about 3 hours to review the game and note it down. And then I have to write some things before and after. So you could say it takes around 3,5 to 4 hours to make it complete and have it published on the site. So doing this for 3 games would take me some 9 to 12 hours each matchday. And then I will not even speak of midweek games…

    I’m affraid my wife would kick me out of our bed if I do this.

    And then I still have to find the time to do my own matches in the weekend…

    Oh, if only I would win a big prize with the Euromillions. I would stop working tomorrow and start writing as a full time reviewer of each game in the EPL. That would be my ultimate dream for the moment.

  • chris66

    Walter

    I really hope I am NOT right. A simple case of bias against Arsenal would be far easier to overcome than what I suspect is going on. Just score lots of goals that can’t be denied and there will be little they can do about it.

    However when you look at the litany of sports where fixing of some form or another has been proven (cricket, cycling, athletics, NBA basketball, Italian football, etc.) and then consider the sheer amount of money being gambled around the world on the Premier League, and the simple fact that there is no focus upon this as an issue or close monitoring of it, then you would have to have a very optimistic view of humanity not to at least have suspicions.

    I would very much encourage anyone who really cares about the game to understand how spread betting works and then look at the odds in a particular game on issues that are under direct referee control, such as total goals, yellow cards, red cards and even the total number of corners. Then take a look at controversial incidents again and see if there is a relationship to keeping things inside the spread on that issue. It makes you see things in a completely different light. I recommend doing it first on a non-Arsenal game so you can take your head out of your hands and watch what is going on.

    I don’t think for a second that all referees are bent or that even the ones that are go wildly out of their way to change results. But spread betting is like trading and the fortunes are made at the margin; on a your ability to make large returns from relatively small risks. Goalkeepers throwing the ball in to their own net eventually get found out (no reference to Almunia here at all (smile)) but a few extra yellows or mysterious penalties, are much harder to detect.

    Big rewards, small risks.

  • Mr Venger

    Its true that we have to be mindfull of losing credibillity with the debate, by becomming embroiled in the emotion and loyalty that from my point of view is part of being a fan of Arsenal. So we can start by questioning the things that are staring everyone in the face, not so subject to perspective . Ie: 1) Why are the majority of the officials in the premiership white balding middle aged men from the north west or near as dammit 2) Why do certain teams play the majority of games before their rivals and at convenient veiwing times for the Asian tv markets, whilst other rivals play 24 hours later the majority of the season, especially @ squeaky-bum time 3) Why do the rest periods between matches for teams competing close to eachother vary so much, again, not evening up in any way over the season? 4) Why do certain teams seem to play such a high propotion of post champions league week fixtures away from / or @ home depending on said team,compared to rivals. 5) Why always the contreversy over something as measurable as time-keeping, its only a fucking stopwatch on display thats required ! 6) (sorry to go on) Why has Richard Scudamore got so much power in OUR game?
    These are all things that need to be addressed before jumping into deeper match fixing accusations and the like in my opinion. Much as I’m ready to do it anyway

  • Shard

    @Chris66

    I have no doubt that what you say here is actually happening. But like Walter, I too don’t know much about betting and how it works. I don’t understand something as simple as odds and leads or what not.. But I do know, that so many sports have uncovered it. Football itself has uncovered it. There is absolutely nothing to prevent it being in operation in English football. The hypothesis is formed only on the basis of what we can see anyway. If there really were to be a comprehensive study of betting patterns across countries, and the results, then I’m sure we will find it very interesting.

    Regarding the bias against Arsenal though. I think there are other biases at work too. Separate from the betting syndicates in their motivations, though most likely not mutually exclusive in their functioning.

  • Shard

    @Walter

    I was going to mention the extra time that would take out of your schedule. Not an easy task you do, and we much appreciate it. Perhaps, if you find the time at some point, take a random sample of some ManU, and some mid table or relegation teams matches. Not all games… Of course. Only if you feel you can do it without it becoming a burden 🙂

  • Mr Venger

    Btw, no offense to any white balding middle aged english readers … Im not far off it myself

  • walter

    Shard, it is something that I like doing. Otherwise I wouldn’t have kept it going for all our games. (Not always funny to go back to some games again… )
    But I also write other articles, I write for the Benelux site match reports, a whole magazine each month, write a daily news update for the Benelux site…

    My wife has lost a lot of weight in the last years but she is worth her weight in gold as she allows me all this writing and things I do when it comes to Arsenal. At times she is a football widow as we say in Dutch (meaning a wife that has accepted that her husband is (almost) always watching football…

    Oh, just wait another 10 years and when I will have retired from work you will see something about ref reviewing… 😉

  • walter

    Mmm I’m affraid it will be a bit longer than 10 years….. 🙁

  • walter

    Mark, and the rest of course I have added the the video of the Djourou pulling incident. This is a blatant holding and pulling and for many many meters (or yards).

    And Djourou did appeal. Just look at the link in the article

  • gooner80

    @walter
    I understand the time you put in, my suggestion is this, if you wait to the end of the season you would have to take a further 26 games from two other teams 13 each. To make a fair comparison and as mentioned a chi square test would test if it is random because you would have an expected number of errors from two other teams and what arsenal get.

    Walter I realise it is hard work, but I think you need to go to this step BECAUSE of all the hard work you have put in, a comparison is the only way to do this, in the off season; it will eat into some of your time but the Untold followers would sure appreciate it, but hey it is only a suggestion

  • Andrew

    Walter

    In terms of the time beyond the 90 minutes you and I had an exchange earlier in the season wherein you were vocal in stating that when a goal was scored in injury time an extra 30 seconds should be added on to the game. Is this a requirement or not because if it is then there’s no real grounds for him to be criticised for playing on to the free kick and beyond (since a minimum of 8 minutes can mean anything up to one second shy of 9 minutes)?

    In terms of the betting then is a concentration in a game like this around 2 goals being scored unusual? I would reckon not, perhaps before the games between arsenal and man u or Chelsea and man u the expectations for goals and final score might be looked at before jumping to conclusions. From what I can find online the odds of a 1-1 draw in the Liverpool game were 6:1 which for a correct score prediction is pretty low.

    Regards

    Andrew

  • Andrew

    Sorry – hit send too early!

    In terms of the spread then this link gives you an insight into the pre-match odds:
    http://www.liveoddsandscores.com/premier-league/440932/premier-league-arsenal-vs-liverpool-odds-and-betting-preview

    Wherein the fifth paragraph talks about the odds in the spread renumber of goals before kick off where less than 2.5 was the most likely option given recent Arsenal performances. As with all of this I am not saying this is proof there isn’t a problem merely that it may not be as clear cut as some might have you think.

    I’ve made the case for the kind of sampling talked about here before (to a more hostile reception than in this thread to date) as, genuinely if there is an issue like is alleged here in the game, I would want it identified and removed. For that to happen though the supporting evidence needs to be more widely drawn.

  • chris66

    Andrew

    The spread referred to in this article was 1.5 to 2.5 with specific bets able to be placed on each. Neither was a choice price. This is not the type of spread betting I am referring to. At the time of kick off the spread was 1.9-2.3, which means that the bookies would buy from me below 1.9 goals and sell me above 2.3 goals in the game. By this there would either have to be less than 1.9 goals or more than 2.3 goals for me to have a chance of making money, depending upon my position. In either situation I would lose if there were 2 goals (as it amazingly enough turned out that it were).

    I realize that this is not the type of betting that most punters do, but I can tell you that the international betting syndicates are very comfortable with it. So given a no lose scenario, would you take the bet?

  • GunnerfanUSA

    Here’s a video of the highlights of the game. Djourou getting his shirt pulled up to his shoulder his the first 30 seconds. The Kuyt handball is at 2:15.

    Good work as usual Walter. It’s because of your hard work that the constant ref bias/ineptness has come to public attention!

  • GunnerfanUSA

    sorry forgot to post the link for the video:

    http://www.in.com/videos/watchvideo-arsenal-v-liverpool-9952104.html

  • marcus

    The Liverpool penalty call is not a penalty, as Walter says, he just throws himself on the ground.

    Even in the first clip, Diaby gets pushed by Carragher as he tries to head the ball.

    That would be another penalty.

    As I understand the laws o the game, pushing and pulling are not allowed, and should be penalized.

    Otherwise you end up with American Football at set-pieces….

    anyhow 4 penalties to us not given in this game.

    Anyhow, well posted Chris66….at least we now have a clearer insight as to what is happening…but I doubt very much anything will change, there is just too much money involved.

  • marcus

    thanks for the video….GunnerfanUsa…the Liverpool penalty is not a penalty at all!

    He just ducks into Eboue and throws himself down…

    that is beyond a joke

  • Wegin van Wegsie

    Hi Walter, just wondering whether you can add time-on for delays during injury time? Like van Persie’s penalty took time out of the game, so would the ref be just adding more time to injury-time to compensate for that?

    Either way you look at it, Eboue’s chasing Lucas OUT of the box, with the ref about to blow the whistle. Sure, he’s trying to get ball and the adrenaline’s puimping, but there’s no need to follow that close, no need to touch him, no need to do ANYTHIGN other than corral Lucas out of the danger area.

    We can’t defend an injury-time goal. That’s the nuts of the matter.

  • Andrei

    @Walter I looked at multiple videos including the one provided by GunnerFunUSA and in the handball incident Kuyt actually tried to put his hands behind his body. The ball skids off the right side of his chest and hist right hand that is a bit behind his body. Anyway I don’t want to get stuck on this particular incident – to me it was a 50/50 call. Djourou being held by defender was much clearer shot at penalty but I guess the ref simply missed that or let it go. Overall it didn’t feel that the ref was doing particularly badly. You may disagree with the last penalty but he was within his rights to call it. The only thing that I cannot get is extra 3 minutes after Arsenal scored. To me that was the only really bad call. But I wouldn’t dwell on it. The most amazing part of the game was outright pathetic display from Arsenal after they scored. Just look at the highlights again. It is simply painful to watch.

  • walter

    Andrew,
    yes you should add 30 seconds for a goal scored in extra time. This is how we have been told.
    And off course I can critize the ref for doing it and for not doing it. If he would have given Arsenal another chance after Liverpool scored then we would have been treated in the same way.
    But now he only did it for Liverpool and not for Arsenal. So if he would have given us also over 30 seconds of game time I would have let it out my review. But now he refused to give us what he has given Liverpool. So I had to punish him in his points for that.

    Now of course as a ref you can decide not give those 30 seconds. But then you have to be strict about it and give them to no team. You cannot give it to one team and then leave it out for the other team.
    And certainly if you give it to the one team that has been wasting time during the game and most certainly during the extra time.

  • walter

    Andrei, I must say Kuyt has a strange way of putting his arms behind his body. Then why did he first jumped in the direction of the ball with both his arms wide open?

  • walter

    to fast submitted

    The more I see Kuyt the more he reminds me of a goalkeeper trying to stop the ball. And he was succesful and it hit his hands and I really cannot see where it hit his chest. He spread his arms and this was an intentional move from the player.
    If he would have kept both his arms low it would have been handball but Andrei just look at how he comes in when he sees that Walcott will have a shot? Is he spreading his arms or not?

  • walter

    An interesting comment I read in Belgium from a Liverpool supporter. He said that the penalty for Arsenal was a penalty. And then he said something very interesting. He thought that the penalty for Liverpool was not a penalty. he said that ‘it was the kind of penalty that you expect to be given to United’.

    And in fact this is how it was. A penalty given in favour of United. It was an Webalty, or a penalty only given to United (this time via Liverpool)

  • walter

    And now just heard the news that in Greece they are investigating a gambling match fixing scandal with also games in the superliga…

  • A Casual Observer

    @Chris66 – you son are spot on. I would urge every ready to read this comment and learn a thing or two.

  • Paul

    Walter as a referee, can you explain me how the Lucas accident could even be a possible penalty and whether you have ever seen something like that in your life before? Because nearly everyone from the anti-arsenal bunch make it look like as if cheerful Lucas was standing in the Arsenal penalty area deciding whether he should go for the ball and then BOOM! crazy Manuel smacked him over. As for me, I’ve never seen a silly call like that, I’ve seen dives and other different cons, but here Lucas didn’t even have the ball at his feet, it was no goal scoring opportunity, the ball wasn’t properly in the air for a shot and Eboue didn’t even have his arms around him or kick him with his legs, as I’ve seen it he just bumped into him with his shoulder, nothing dangerous and Lucas went down like a tree! Disgrace, that’s what I call a dive like the one Berbatov did against the same Liverpool in the FA cup (at least he had the ball at his feet). So is there a specific penalty alike call where a player bumps into another shoulder to shoulder without the latter even not having the ball at his feet?

  • jitty

    IMO this was a gambling fix

    If it were simply a tilt against Arsenal, Marriner would not have given the Fabregas peno

  • It’s all about the “in play” jitty… or did Marriner just expect someone else to take the penalty kick?

  • marcus

    quotes Paul:Walter as a referee, can you explain me how the Lucas accident could even be a possible penalty and whether you have ever seen something like that in your life before? Because nearly everyone from the anti-arsenal bunch make it look like as if cheerful Lucas was standing in the Arsenal penalty area deciding whether he should go for the ball and then BOOM! crazy Manuel smacked him over. As for me, I’ve never seen a silly call like that, I’ve seen dives and other different cons, but here Lucas didn’t even have the ball at his feet, it was no goal scoring opportunity, the ball wasn’t properly in the air for a shot and Eboue didn’t even have his arms around him or kick him with his legs, as I’ve seen it he just bumped into him with his shoulder, nothing dangerous and Lucas went down like a tree! Disgrace, that’s what I call a dive like the one Berbatov did against the same Liverpool in the FA cup (at least he had the ball at his feet). So is there a specific penalty alike call where a player bumps into another shoulder to shoulder without the latter even not having the ball at his feet?

    It is worse than that Paul, Lucas sees Eboue over his shoulder and literally drops his shoulder into him….

    if anything it is a foul on Eboue….

    a really poor shambolic call, and as Walter has amply shown, we had 3, (4 in my book), penalties turned away…

    it is indeed as the FT article suggests , more like the Truman Show

  • C4

    I’ve seen the reaction on some blogs (I was gonna say mindless blogs, but I chose to exercise some restraint and not call some of them silly names like idiots, retards, etc). Many “fans” are bashing Eboue, and I don’t think he did anything wrong. He was caught out by a cheating diver, that’s it. Much the same way I think Cesc tricked the defender into fouling him in the box, the difference is that Cesc was actually fouled, without diving or faking anything, or running into the player. Cesc spun AWAY from him and was goal bound, and simply invited the defender into the challenge by placing himself in a dangerous attacking position. Had it been a similar situation with Lucas, I’d have no issue with it. But the fact that this official denied us so many other penalties, and then gave one against us that was a complete fake… That gets to me, in a major way. The reaction of the majority of liverpool’s fans is not impressive either, most claim Lucas didn’t dive, and the pen was legit… No morality whatsoever.

    Most match fixing in this league is done via the officials. They do the dirty work, and the media covers it up by telling everyone what “actually” happened. There’s obviously been an intense study done of previous fixes that went wrong, and systems have been created and adjusted accordingly to allow a more subtle form of match fixing to occur. One based on the complete refusal of media and the FA to even consider that an official can possibly be biased or corrupt. After all, don’t the officials land from heaven, in a halo of light, wings and all?

  • C4

    @Walter
    There was a suggestion earlier that you do reviews of the games of other teams so we can make some comparisons. This has been shown to be impractical for 1 man to do, but don’t we have more than one ref on this site? If I recall correctly, Laundryender said he was a ref too…
    If we could get others with ref experience to do other teams’ reviews, we might be able to spread the workload and acquire the data for comparison. If I was ref, I’d volunteer.
    I’d be curious to see the stats regarding ref mistakes for/against teams other than the Arsenal.
    Perhaps we could even recruit from outside Untold if need be. Are there any brave refs (or former refs) among us, willing to join the cause? Please step forward…

  • Shard

    ManU drew against Newcastle.. Are we back in the title race?

  • Shard

    By the way.. if Chris66 is here, or anyone who knows and understands betting.. What was the betting like on a 0-0 scoreline for the ManU game? 3 penalty appeals in that game. 2 for ManU, 1 for Newcastle. Only the Newcastle penalty was a penalty in my view, but it is suprising that there was no Webalty given either.

  • Laundryender

    Can I just clarify that the referee was right in not re-starting the game after Liverpool’s penalty. The laws state that if taking the penalty runs into extra time, (in this case extra, extratime) then time must be allowed for the penalty kick.

    For me it is clear that the ref fell for the following, the blatant dive by Lucas, the media bandwagon on how fickle we are, Eboue is unpopular with referees (Graham Poll has stated that he is very difficult) so some decisions are easier to give than others, the fact that the incident happened next to their vocal away support.

    The referee was poor and missed much, he did not execute his obligations to the laws as he should have done, and as sole time keeper he did all he could to extend the game as long as possible. Refereeing is incredibly difficult, try it, you will be amazed how little you see of some incidents, and many decisions are made on instinct.

    A very famous quote, made by Bill Nicholson, he was the 1960s version of Arsene Wenger, who walked away from football because footballers disappointed him. “there are 23 men on a football pitch, and only one is not a cheat” Lucas coned the ref, if we are to become winners Wenger has to get our guys that cynical, get them to play the game as professionals and not with some utopian image of Corinthian sportsmanship. Professionals in any sport do all they can to win a game, all they can! It is the difference between winning and loosing.

    On the subject of betting syndicates, I don’t think so, not in the media spotlight, not such high profile matches.

    I have stated before that I think the EPL is currently loaded against Arsenal. It is a mindset, a culture that has been created. We are regarded as a French club; our manager is a whinger, just because it makes a headline, our players are soft, we are fickle, we don’t play the British game, we capitulate under pressure (so not English that) and now we are nearly men.

    It is up to us to change these perceptions, Just like Andy Murray, the Brit who is a Scot when he looses. Wenger knows this, and is frustrated by our failure to do so, as we all are.

    Win one trophy and more will follow, that is why CC final was such a hammer blow, a self inflicted one!!

  • jitty

    @ dogface

    agreed.

    there is really no point watching