Arsenal News
Arsenal News & Transfers
As featured on NewsNow: Arsenal newsArsenal News 24/7

Arsenal News, Only Arsenal, Blogs, Transfer News

Archives

March 2017
M T W T F S S
« Feb    
 12345
6789101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
2728293031  

Turkey and Greece: two more countries in the growing match fixing scandal Football Scandal

By Tony Attwood

The Turkish Organized Crime Department have moved in on individuals seemingly involved in a match-fixing scandal.   Around 40 people have been arrested including three club presidents – one of them the president of Fenerbahce.

Two Fenerbahce players, Emmanuel Emenike and Sezer Öztürk, have also been held in custody.

Other footballers arrested include Gençlerbirligi striker Serkan Calik and Ankaragücü goalkeeper Serdar Kulbilge, both Turkish internationals.

Fenerbahce chairman said, “It is quite clearly just the manifestation of a police state.  Just which matches are they considering investigating?”

A match-fixing investigation resulted in many arrests last year but this was the first time officials have been arrested.  Police have now also searched offices at Beşiktaş, Trabzonspor, and Turkish Football Federation offices early Sunday, according to CNNTürk.

The arrested presidents are accused of  “directing a criminal organization, money laundering and criminal activity, repeated fraud over and above the amount of 15,000 euros…extortion by threat of harm, repeated, bribery and corruption in altering the results of matches and participation in illegal betting”.

Meanwhile some 70 people have been arrested in Greece in connection with another  match-fixing scandal including two Super League club presidents, plus some club owners, players, referees and a chief of police.  In Greece they are accused of illegal gambling, fraud, extortion and money laundering.

The Greek investigation began after Uefa listed over 40 matches in the 2009/10 season with suspicious betting patterns or results..

All those arrested are banned from leaving Greece – and all were trapped through recorded phone conversations.

These events add to arrests and/or investigations in Germany, Argentina, Finland, Hungary, along with internationals involving Estonia and Latvia.

Walter Broeckx on Refs and Scandals

The Match Fixing Index

Untold Arsenal on Twitter is in the top 1% of all Twitter sites for followers @UntoldArsenal

On the history site: the three article review of 2001/2 is now complete

85 comments to Turkey and Greece: two more countries in the growing match fixing scandal Football Scandal

  • jayj

    Whats all this rubbish about clichy at eastlands? Isn’t he back for pre-season training with the rest?

    Even if this is true I hopes Wenger buys someone because Gibbs wasn’t up to it last season.

  • Jitty

    Meanwhile Brum is operated by organised crime

    LULZ.

    But lets make sure the media do not ask any questions about that.

  • Praaam

    walter, your efforts in the past few months have made it very much clear that match fixing does exist in football..the ref reviews have shown that it exists in england as well..the newcastle-arsenal match being the best example. The question is will the authorities do anything about it? The FA may be equally corrupt but can the Police in England get involved like they have in turkey..and even if some parties are found guilty will proper action be taken against them like they did in Italy in 2006 when Juventus were relegated because of match fixing scandals..

  • Praaam

    oh..sorry this article is by tony…

  • Jitty

    @Praaam

    Something that is overlooked but raised by Declan Hill is that no organisation actually has the resource or task to deal with this.

    The reason Germany caught someone is that they physically assigned resource to it.

    Investigating ‘suspicious betting patterns’ is laughable.

  • Praaam

    In italy…the police did investigate the scene after the agency GEA World was prosecuted in Naples..after that telephone conversations were tapped which revealed the conversations between clubs and ref assocations..i agree investigation can not be done just purely on suspicious betting patterns..but surely things are a bit more obvious than strange betting patterns..like the newcastle-arsenal…arsenal-everton matches…there might be even more examples which i don’t know.
    also another thing to notice is how in italy all the big clubs were given proper punishment..would the same sort of punishment be given to the so called big clubs in england if proved guilty.

  • I was also sent information about match fixing in Israel, which I meant to include here and then forgot. I’ll add that to the next report.

  • willybilly

    I’ve been blooging about arsenal for 2 weeks now.
    I am a wenger loyalist to the max.
    Why are you printing pointless articles like this when you need to be doing what your actually meant to do, ie supporting wenger?.
    Dont get me wrong, you can write about whatever you want, although in a time where Arsene needs people like us to come up with great arguments for him, to beat the negative greedy arsenal fans who want him out, is this the type of story that is important right now?,

    As what we believe in is being castigated daily by the press, and a growing number of fans ,you are writing about Referee corruption or someone else’s stadium.

    Do what I do on that awful blog Le grove. Listen to what is going on every day in our anti arsenal media, and defend the great man Wenger from the growing number of hounds.

    I was told on le grove that I work for Arsenal PR and that I was best mates with Tony Attwood!, so I looked up the name, and being slightly disappointed with what i found, have to tell you again,
    NOW is the time to defend wenger, not hide away behind interesting but largely irrelevant stories

    I want to read a blog from you in the next couple of days that actually makes people think that wenger is not the man to be blamed.

    If you don’t I will, and with your permission would love to use it as a guest post on your blog

    Lose Arsene Lose Arsenal ( got a ring to it no?) That one drives them mad on Le grove!!!

    Mucho respect to your views.

  • Arvind

    You’re entitled to fight those battles WillyBilly and good luck to you. Its a losing cause though trying to talk sense into a lot of people who want trophies so they can brag to their ‘mates at the pub’. I strongly recommend you don’t even click on all those pointless links which regurgitate the same rubbish again and again on goonernews.com. I follow just a few sites – which tell me all I need to know. I recommend you do the same:

    a) UntoldArsenal
    b) Arseblog
    c) Desigunner
    d) BBC [For authentic rumours]
    e) Arsenal.com [Of course]
    f) Arsenal-Mania forums [When I’m bored – I never post there though]

    The large majority of the rest are not worth visting. Le Grove I stopped after the first article. The choice, my friend is yours 🙂

  • Donnyfan1

    That there is evidence of match fixing in every place you look seems important to me–especially after a season warped in ManUs favour like the last one.
    We need to know all about it all Tony. As for your comments Willybilly- why do you read rubbish like Le Grove? You know what they are going to say afore you read it. And when AW does go (inevitable eventually) the same nutters will be ranting at his replacement. They are moaners wilh zero critical faculties and they even believe the rubbish pushed out in the media. Last season remember–Cesc was leaving and we were going to buy 147 players. Nobody mentioned Coch however! More worrying is the ref and press vendetta against Arsenal. If you want to root out a cancer– get stuck into the reasons for that.

  • Alex K

    Do you know which clubs in Greece have been implicated in the match fixing scandal?

    I know one is Olympiakos (not very surprising considering how they have dominated over the past decade)but which are the others?

  • willybilly

    @ Arvind

    Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.

    But my stance is that I WANT to go to a place where people don’t agree with me.

    I feel so strongly that I will fight fire with fire, is there is no passion amongst us wengerights anymore?

    Are we going to let the Anti Beauty in Football idiots shout the loudest.?

    I say we all spend a day on le grove and take over the madness with sense. There is enough talk of protests and the like over there, so why not all chose the same date, and take over their blog for a day?

    All I’m saying is they don’t like people going on and being relentless. If you are polite, then they cannot ban you, for fear of looking weak.

    Come on lets fight back!!

  • bob

    sillybilly,
    This website does support Arsene — all the time; and shows corruption — all the time. The connection is that achieving a fair playing field for beautiful football is good for Football and good for Arsenal. So when you say why write “this kind of article” about corruption when what’s needed is a pro-Arsene article, it means to me, like you say, that you’ve only been blogging for two weeks. Better to look before you leap, as there are great articles to read and learn from (try the homepage) and comments that matter. There’s always sharp and important debates, all the time, so don’t feel singled-out. Mindless rah-rah boosterism is no more of a help than is mindless criticism.

  • willybilly

    @ Bob

    Before mocking me, try reading what I wrote.

    I said that was this the “right time” to be writing stories about corruption, when Wengers reputation is at an all time low?

    Blogs like this should be focusing on important issues of the day, especially during these difficult weeks. ie relentless support of wenger against the relentless rallying against him.

    I did not suggest that this blog isn’t pro arsene, infact i said that it clearly is.

  • bob

    sillybilly,
    Your idea will start a blog-war which will divert and consume energies from the important work done by this site. Do you think that LeGrovel won’t try to take over this blog in return? To me it’s an Under10 way to avoid specific criticism. Why don’t you analyze something that needs to change? Why not start a petition for video replay? There’s so much to do – but a blog war with LeGrovel? That would be exactly what LeGrovel would love. People hereabouts do not lack energy or passion as you suggest. So, put yours into analysis, petitions, etc., that could actually pressure for specific change. If you find that too dull, better to stay on LeGrovel. And I speak as someone who is banned from its hallowed sewer.

  • bob

    p.s. it IS the right time to look into corruption, especially as the season has not started, and bringing people to a state of high awareness and vigilance as to what is going on may well help our prospects for the forthcoming season, when the corruption translates into bent calls, non-calls, etc. on the pitch. Is that not relevant to Arsenal’s well-being? If you don’t think so, read Walter’s Ref Rview of the past season on this website. Anti-corruption is related to what goes on the pitch. It is not at all the diversion you imply. Also, some of us are interested in a media watch, to combat the media misrepresentations of Arsene/Arsenal which you are rightly screaming about. So why not expose any patterns of how Arsene is being trashed now. Just pick a media outlet and analyze who is writing what in what newspaper or on the telly, and show how he/she goes about doing it. Any of the above would be a real contribution. But a pissing contest with LeGrovel is at best useless.

  • willybilly

    @ Mr bobby

    Yes it would be a crazy thing to do, but why do you assume that we can not do it in a positive way?,

    If we were polite, then as a whole theywould debate with us, and if they did insult us, then they would look silly.

    And who cares if it did start a blog war?? if it was moderated as it would be then surely it could be a good thing and a chance to debate properly.

    I do put my energy into analysis, but no petition in the world will change the disgraceful things that get said about our manager on a daily basis. It is easy for you to write these people off as Idiots(which most of them are), but they represent a GROWING number of fans,

    So why hide? thats all i’m saying. I’m so angry about they way our club gets bashed by the press, and when I hear a large section of our own supporters buying, I get angry, maybe thats not good, but I do

  • willybilly

    @ bobby

    No NOW is the right time to be staunchly defending wenger, EVERY DAY.
    Obviously I know about what corruption is doing to the game, but at this moment, our club and manager needs us

  • willybilly

    @ bob

    Yes I shall Write a killer article, and see if a pro arsene blog might use it as a guest post.

    Thanks for the advice

  • Shard

    @willybilly

    You can only engage with people who are willing to do the same. Try calling Le Grove out on the lies that they say. Hey Presto..You are banned. They already look like idiots anyway and they don’t care. They want you to engage with them on their level or no go. You’re welcome to try and debate with them if you so wish of course. No problem there at all. But most of us here, I suspect, have tried debating with people who just do not want to do so. It is not rewarding in any way at all.

    Wenger being called the things he is, and the way he is depicted in the media is well known here. As you say, no amount of petitions will change that. Neither will you trying to debate with people who are inflexible and who are led by a far more influential machinery. You can try, and you will have my support, but there are OTHER things that are probably more important. Put pressure on the refs, put pressure on the football administrators to set their houses in order, and a lot of the nonsense propounded will reduce anyway. In my view, you are focusing on the symptoms, while Untold is focusing on the disease.

  • willybilly

    @ Shard

    Yes Ive been banned from le grove twice, in two weeks, just for basically having an opinion. I did call it Le Doom, which they hated, now I call it Le Love, which winds them up further!

    My point is, that both times I was banned i was let back on due to loads of people complaining that if they banned the likes of me, why do they et racist crap go unchecked every day.

    So not every one on Le Love is incapable of debate, just the admin!!

    I do agree with all you say about pressure on refs etc and other things that will have long term effects, but right now, why don’t some of us intelligent wengerights go and use our arguing powers to TRY and influence?

    Yes we may not change the ring leaders mins, but we could change many minds of the easily led who are just waiting to be told what to think.

    I just think sitting on blogs where everyone agrees with each other, is essentially more pointless as some suggest my plan of an open, moderated internet debate between Us and them is.

  • jayj

    Clichy gone, praying nasri and fab stay.
    Gervinho coming – so not so bad but we need to keep our midfield and add to our defense.

    Wenger may be looking else where in Europe Samba, Cahill too obvious and typically are not your Wenger signings.

    Wondering have Nasri and Fab included in our far east trip?

    ANYONE please update.

  • Arvind

    Offtopic: I’m sorry but I’d like to take a moment to thank Gael Clichy for his years of fantastic service to AFC.

  • Shard

    @willybilly

    Not arguing with your aims. But I have tried it before and it hasn’t worked. You can’t really change what people think. And people don’t all always agree here. You’ll find many disagreements, even though generally almost everyone here believes that Wenger is the right man for the job. For that reason, I don’t like to think of an ‘US vs. THEM’ scenario. There are always shades of opinion and there isn’t a concrete type of person. Dividing the fanbase into that sort of thing can’t really be a good thing.

    I appreciate you are trying to bridge a gap, and I appreciate that you would like to register your support for Arsenal and Wenger. I just don’t understand the whole invade Le Grove and try and debate scenario. I for one, am not giving them any more hits.

  • RedGooner

    @Willy
    Oddly I dont come here because I support AW in everything he does, I am just an Arsenal supporter who happens to like the articles that Tony, Walter and Maddog and many of the others publish for their interesting views.

    Every manager should be judged on their performances and while I hope AW does turn things around on the pitch I cant say I have the confidence that I once had although I do recognise its an uphill battle.

    Tony on the president of fernebache I met him and his two sons about 10 years back a friend of mine owns a company that do a lot of the top clubs all weather pitches and we went out and done fernebaches, I remember going to his home it was like something something out of a drug dealer movie mirrors your car par

  • Shard

    @Arvind

    Hear hear.. Thank you Gael Clichy.

  • RedGooner

    continued

    Mirrors your car parked on when entering where cameras took images underneath for explosives even guys walking around everywhere armed it looked far more like someone who was into shady dealings than a legit wealthy persons home.

  • willybilly

    @ shard

    Appreciate what you are saying.

    anyway my original point was that instead of writing about corruption, this week in particular should be focused on countering the record amount of anti arsene views that are in the media at the moment.

    war on Le Love was more of a side thought!

  • Shard

    @willybilly

    It isn’t a record amount and it isn’t an ‘instead’ situation. Corruption in football and it’s implications for the EPL and for Arsenal have been a long running theme on this site. Maybe there should be articles on supporting Wenger also, and perhaps as you say, you could write one yourself. But it isn’t an either/or situation. Both are necessary.

  • bob

    willybilly,
    yes, please do write that killer article and submit it here and continue your work on LeGrovel, etc. But I think that in the current media-made climate, to provoke an all-out intra-Arsenal blog war would fast become red meat for The Sun and The Mirror and Sky and large parts of the Guardian and quickly be turned against Arsenal as a “civil war” in its fan base. Please be aware of their scope before handing over our mutual-wounding for them to further screw us with, and undermine our image among potential player signings. This by no means is meant to be passive. And I do find your desire to be proactive, any kind of active VERY refreshing. Just not all-out intra-Arsenal blog-war.

  • walter

    Willybilly,
    I understand what you mean. As a former volunteer in the front line on Le Grove I have been banned a few years ago. On occasion I go there to see if things have changed.. still the same things as in my days.

    I think that here on Untold we do support Arsene and Arsenal and their players and this is the main stream of the articles. I see the ref reviewing articles, the ref previewing articles from Dogface as something that also is supportive to Arsenal and Arsene Wenger. It shows that there are things even Arsene can’t beat. But the U10 (I even dare to call them the nursery school kids) can only see one culpable if something goes wrong: Arsène and (most of the time) the non English speaking players.

    Our corruption articles also are some kind of backing Wenger. He left France because in those days there was a corruption scandal and he was upset about this. He then went to Japan and then later to Arsenal.

    So Arsene has been fighting corruption in his career and so over here by trying to fight corruption we are in fact doing it not just for the benefit of football in general but also as a support to Arsene Wenger.

    Well this is my view on those things as a regular writer on this website. Cleaning up football will benefit Arsenal. As we do things the right way. So all things are connected. Oh and welcome on Untold

  • Gooner Gal

    @ Silly Billy – here’s a suggestion for you, why don’t you go away?

  • Praaam

    Thanks to Gael Clichy for his great service over the years…all the best to him…
    one thing I would like to mention is how crap the media are…i read about clichy just now on sky sports who used to criticize him all the time calling him the reason arsenal’s left side is crap defensively..but now if you check their report of the transfer they say clichy played at arsenal since 2003 and became a KEY player for the team…

  • walter

    Praaam,
    just another example that some media are just out there to write Arsenal down. An Arsenal player is always bad, unhappy, wants out…. and once out they are great, happy and finally arrived where they should have been a long time ago

  • bob

    Yes we should, but can we do a bit more than wish Clichy well?
    To say the least, the Clichy/Arshavin channel was a serious defensive weakness. From many accounts and from what I’ve seen, Clichy forward forays (and he still is Fast) were not being supported by Arshavin’s back-tracking, at least until the last two-three matches, when Arshavin showed he could actually tackle quite well. I’m wondering out loud whether Clichy left, at least in part, because he had enough of that. After all, he took a LOT of stick for being inadequate. And there were lapses. But, in any case, he asks for more money than Arsene/Arsenal would agree to continue with us, which is his right. SO, what does this mean for us? That Arshavin is staying on in the same position? And, if so, does this leave us with Arshavin-Gibbs on the left? And, if so, does anyone think this remotely adequate? And if not, are there any thoughts about replacements that will work not only with the rest of the defense, but on the left side?, which I have really not seen much analysis of hereabouts.

  • Gooner Gal

    Yep, I would also like to thank Gael for his services to the club. I wish he had stayed one more year, but heay ho – onwards and upwards.

    Someone better tell the Mancs to clarify their position with the FA as Arsenal are not allowed a ‘B’ team in the same league….I’m just saying it could start getting a bit confusing.

  • bob

    p.s. It also troubling to me that loyalty is shown to Denilson/Rosicky in terms of recent contract extensions (I think that’s right, but please correct if not), but not to Clichy. We can’t know what was the gap between Arsenal and Clichy, but knowing it would be so helpful to understanding what goes on in this transfer window and in our thinking. I, as ever, find the fact-free air that we must breathe a real obstacle to any fact-seeking fan’s analysis going forward. Perhaps Richard B or others who have said they have had insider conversations could shed any light on this gap. If we knew, we could meaningfully weigh in on whether the cost of losing Clichy is worth the benefit of wherever else we spend. In this case, alas, there is no truth to discern in the things unseen.

  • willybilly

    @Everyone, (apart from goonergal!)

    Thanks for your words. Ill be back

  • Shard

    @bob

    I understand what you are saying about the facts not being known, but I cannot support you in that demand (if it is a demand). the workings of the club should remain internal, and not generally known. We would like to know, but if we know, our competitors, the players, our targets, their clubs, they all know. Thus leaving them better equipped to deal with us.

    As far as Clichy is concerned I would have to conclude that he wasn’t willing to sign a new contract. His being overworked may indeed have been a factor in it. The amount of tackles and interceptions he has put in show a high work rate. Will it be worth the benefit of wherever else we spend? Perhaps, though like for like, we’ll struggle to replace his numbers. I do not think it’ll be financial benefit at all though. Almost anyone who will be a replacement would cost more than we sold him for in my view. But I don’t think we could do anything but accept that. Clichy is replaceable, but it won’t be easy.

  • bob

    Gooner Gal,
    Is “onwards and upwards” enough? any downside you see to Clichy’s leaving? and, more important, what would you do now with the 7M that Arsenal is getting for its trouble?

    Also, I’m ignorant on this (among other things), so I’m missing your Manc B-team reference. Please explain, cheers.

  • Gooner Gal

    @ Silly Billy “you’ll be back” haha, I am yawning already. Hopefully Le Grove will unblock you, or failing that you discover your wagging tail and that keeps you amused and occupied for a few hours.

  • bob

    Shard,
    Here’s one of those few places we’ll disagree, kind of. I do take on your point about not giving out competitive trade secrets. But, going forward, is there any point in time, say after the transfer window (about which we will all opine in darkness), when factual knowledge of the gap between Clichy’s ask and Arsenal’s offer would be something you’d want to know (and so, it would be made public)? If it’s Ok never to know such things (and I’m asking not accusing), then I think we are trying to analyze the proverbial elephant from holding its tail, or its trunk, or its right front toenail. You know what I mean.

  • bob

    Gooner Gal,
    If you read through the sequence of comments, willbilly seems to finally take on people’s advice to come back with a killer (as in strong analytic) article to propose to UA, and you bid him (eternal) adieu. Why so nasty to him? He seems to be accepting a challenge to make a serious contribution and you put the boot to his friendly departure. Why not a challenge instead of a curse?

  • Gooner Gal

    @ Bob, with football there are always downsides and associated risks. Clichy’s gone so let’s move on. The team in my opinion need’s changes and it’s happening now. I suspected he was off and the rumoured figure of £7m isn’t too shabby. The sale means we are definately buying in defence. Gibbs has just been thrown the gauntlet to step up. If he can stay injury free then we are fine.

    At the end of the day we finished a disappointing 4th place last season. The team as it stood, for what ever reason didn’t deliver. I trust that Wenger is working away to improve the squad and it is going to be an interesting few months as faces come and go.

    As for the ManC ‘b’ team ref, I didn’t think everyone would get it. Life is full of mysteries.

  • Gooner Gal

    @ Bob, I read silly billy’s comments and hope he deliver’s a ‘killer’ article for you to discuss. I found him irksome.

  • bob

    Gooner Gal,
    Yep, thanks for the clue! That’s a Capital answer from you. (p.s. but are we better off without Clichy? I fear not.)

  • Gooner Gal

    @ Bob, if you don’t think Arsenal can cope without Clichy then I will officially register your ‘I told you so’ now, so if at the end of next season we don’t for some shocking reason win any silverware, you can come on here and say so.

  • bob

    Gooner Gal,
    To talk some football, do you agree that the issue on the left side is not only with who replaces Clichy, but how he links up with Arshavin? (or whoever is in that slot?) I feel that we tend to think in terms of back four and those up front, but not the left/right link-ups which is where we often got burned?

  • Gooner Gal

    The only unanswered question I have about this transfer is whether ManC are secretly using the services of Daniel Comolli. How can they get rid of the versatile defender Jerome Boateng, who can comfortably play left back, rightback and central defence and bring in Clichy?

    I wish we did a straight swap and forgot the cash.

  • bob

    Wow, Gooner Gal,
    Now I’m really scared. You know, seriously, I don’t mind being wrong. I’d rather worry out loud and give my reasoning than say, like you, it’s all being taken care of; and that, in the interim, you’re taking names of the doubters. Let’s face it: I don’t know enough now to say I’m doubting we can fill his spot; nor do you know enough now to say that we can fill his spot. What I’m saying is that it is a larger question that just Clichy and one position. And I’m inviting you to discuss with actual reasons, something a bit more than your taking names for the thought-crime of doubting. For the record, in this moment, I neither doubt, nor do feel sure that we can fill the Clichy spot – because the Clichy spot has to be understood in its link-up aspect, not in isolation.

  • bob

    p.s. Ok, we just cross-posted and I’m glad to have your analysis.

  • critic

    willy how old are u? I mean fighting fire with fire? ROFL

    Don’t waste your youth fighting over articles on some classless blog. Write your article and enjoy. That’s what arsenal means to me – source of joy. It doesn’t matter even if they don’t win anything for another century. I just want them to stick to their principle and approach towards the game.
    That’ll do.

    Very informative article.

  • jayj

    I get the feeling Clichy knew Wenger had already identified someone as this all happened way before pre-training. It may be be Gibbs but I feel it isn’t as Gibbs hasn’t settled yet. Me thinks may be a senior from our backline is more accomplished in that position, tougher to break possibly more defensive than offensive than Clichy.

  • Gooner Gal

    @ Bob, I have found recently that Untold pages take a while to load. I am not sure if its a connection problem my end.

    I have already stated in my previous post that I think this move means a promotion for Gibbs. I think he understands the role enough to do well. My only concern is that injuries have hampered him this season.

  • Shard

    @bob

    To get back to what you asked me, I, after much thought, would still say no. It really isn’t of any consequence that we know. It can do no good in my opinion and can do some harm. It will do no good because even if say the differences were insurmountable, people would still draw their own conclusions. Plus, commenting on internal workings would set a precedent which would result in either everything having to be shared, or anything that is not shared dubbed sinister and calls of ‘what do you have to hide’. I know we had a disagreement before as well on this subject where you called Gazidis’ engagement with the fans as platitudes or something of the sort. I think that shows the danger of opening up too much. What is done is easily forgotten and taken for granted. The focus remains on what is not shared.

    That sounds something a dictator would say isn’t it? I would think up some reasons why it’s not the same thing but I don’t really feel like it/up to it at the moment.

    About Clichy, in isolation, I think he is not replaceable, but in terms of how the LB position interacts with the rest of the defense and the left flank, I think he is. I have no idea who it is that can replace him. I don’t think it’s Gibbs though. Though I suspect LB will be the lower priority at the moment. Gibbs, and Jenkinson (who can cover there) along with Traore (if he stays) COULD do a job. I feel it won’t be a very good job, but with other areas that require/may require attention, I fear this will be left to our youth.

  • bob

    Gooner Gal,
    yeah, we’ve cross-posted time-wise due to downloading, but happily we’ve swapped analyses, so no problems. cheers.

  • Shard

    oh and bob.. Happy 4th of July to you and all American gooners.

  • bob

    Shard,
    No problems. The question of whether/how much/when to disclose will come up and there’s no need to agree, and it’s pretty much a moot point because we don’t have power anyway on this point. So whenever will do fine. As for the Clichy question, we share the hopes and fears. Let’s see how it plays out. Cheers.

  • bob

    Shard,
    Thanks, though I’ve looked here for the fireworks display! (Dare I whisper a thing about sharing independence from England?)

  • Shard

    bob,
    You dared already 🙂 In my experience, Brits are only embarrassed about their Raj here (though I’ve met one or two morons who justify all about it) So most likely there’ll be no fireworks on that score.

  • bob

    Tony,
    Is this the entire CURRENT scandal list as of today: Turkey, Greece, Israel, Argentina, Hungary, Germany, Finland(not sure?). It’s really extraordinary when you see the scale of what’s surfaced. Which of course indicates the scale of what remains. It’s obviously not only the quality cream that floats to the top! I also think that this remarkable convergence might give some pause to the many who use knee-jerk, evidence-free arguments that coincidence, human frailty, pro-northern, anti-foreign bias, or some mix thereof are the real determinants of all things dodgy on the pitch. In a way, at least for now, it starts to unbalance, even shift the burden of proof on to those who assert “it can’t happen here” (now as their Titanic heads straight for that iceberg).

  • bob

    Dark Prince,
    Surely, with such scandals afoot football-worldwide, it’s time for you to come out and play?

  • walter

    Bob I think china also had its problems… but they keep it closed. I even think I can remember that a ref could face death penalty for match fixing. But well that’s China and we still don’t really know what is going on there completely.

  • willybilly

    @ gooner gsl

    You seem like one of those types of people who don’t feel the need to explain yourself when you insult others.

    If all you can do is pick on my choice of words, and not comment on my point that arguably in wengers most under pressure week all efforts should be made to counter some of the negative press, then its a shame.

    @critic

    How old are you? using ROFL makes you look about 15. So dont patronise me, especially if you are not saying anything relevant to my comments

  • willybilly

    @ gooner gal

    plus, I’m not banned from Le Grove. So don’t know where you got that from.

  • bob

    As we great the dawn on Tuesday:
    I must say that selling quality like Clichy to our closest epl rival for 7M; or, IF it happens today that Cesc is meeting Arsene to formalize a request to leave (as the Guardian is reporting), and we are willing to sell Cesc to Them That Need Him to Seamlessly transition from Xavi (as he ages) for less than 50M – when we have him signed to 2015 – is totally beyond my peanut-brained comprehension. Would someone please deliver me from Ignorance? What is the Actual Business Reason (and I know it’s to make money, so spare me the obvious) for this. I know it’s like re-inventing the wheel to try and go through this again and again, but WTF? Is there a hole below the water line of the self-sustaining model? Forgive the black humor, but faith alone is not getting me through this.

  • bob

    p.s. all the above to understate that I don’t see us exactly dealing from strength.

  • Woolwich Peripatetic

    If there is a match fixing cinspiracy in the EPL then one has to ask:
    How has it been kept quiet?
    Who (aside from the obvious) is benefiting?

    The answer to the second is most likely Sky which brings me back to the first. Murdoch doesn’t exactly have many friends outside the press he owns, most non-News International media would love to pin something like that on him so why haven’t they, if they could?

  • Woolwich Peripatetic

    @bob
    None of the Cesc stuff makes the slightest bit of sense. Wenger is stubborn enough to keep Cesc and keep playing him so he can’t cancel his contract due to lack of appearances.
    Likewise the Nasri stuff, the last sensible quote from him was “don’t believe what you read in the papers” and it still looks like the club he is most likely to sign for is Arsenal because no club we would realistically sell to has a need for him that can’t wait a year.

  • bob

    Woolwich Peripatetic,
    Obviously silence is always there first, before any corruption scandal erupts. So we – you and I – can’t know with certainty if there is corruption in the EPL, as yet. Any more than we could have known in Greece, for one of the 5-6 current non-EPL examples. Now I ask: do you reject it’s possibility? do you sense any grounds for suspicions? Now I grant you that there’s no systemic smoking gun, as yet. But we do have a few oddities, to use that term for now, to explain away: Like Newcastle/Dowd. Like the still incendiary video of Riley’s 1-0 gift to ManUre that Andy Kelly provided two days ago. Like this season’s Birmingham crime scene. Like the chronic phenomenon called Fergie Time. People with far longer memories than mine can provide scores of suspicious events. There is Tony’s composite Rev Review showing behaviors that appear to go beyond coincidence. Circumstantial, Ok. But you can’t fairly dismiss out of hand a lot of such stuff because, at this moment, there is no absolute certainty of a scandal below the surface. We shall see. Your apparent faith in the exceptionalism of the EPL – its seeming immunity from the contagion that tarnishes foreign football – is quite touching to me.

    You ask how it could be kept silent when Murdoch/News Int’l have, you claim, a host of powerful lurking enemies. Who are they? and what comparative power are you talking about? Now it would take extensive analysis, as you realize; but, on the surface, as you well know, there’s a rather large continent of entwined media properties with serious power and great influence over how football is covered, who is favored, who is trashed, whose games are televised, whose are not – much of which translates into employment, careers, merchandising, contracts, assignments, etc. – that you surely are aware of: linking The Sun, NOTW, Sky, Fox Soccer Channel, Times, etc. etc. etc., with great impact on how football is covered, spun and received — all for you and I to consider in our “ample” unpaid leisure time. So I can only scratch the surface to suggest there simply may not be the serious counterbalancing, countervailing force or host of unified opponents that could do what you seem to imply they could to unclasp the hold that these interests exercise on the English game. Did you hear any of these media outlets ever advocate for video technology? Why not? If they did we’d have it in a nano-second. But, of course, to advocate that would admit the unthinkable – that the self-policing EPL might one day a problem like the one that’s raging through the football world as you read. Oh, but that, of course, is a thought crime. Well, there’s so much more to say, but, in the end, we shall see. I can only suggest that the possibility is not fanciful. And for that, I find support in Walter’s end of season ref reviews, a long enough memory, and the evidence of lots of circumstantial events seen, calls and non-calls alike. To you, it seems, this is foolishness. I don’t think so, but, in truth, I’d really be happy to be wrong in my suspicions. I can’t take the comfort that you appear to be able to take in the absence, for now, of the scandal itself.

  • bob

    Woolwich Peripatetic,
    As for the Cesc stuff, I do lean in your direction – that Arsene won’t let it happen. But it’s today’s Guardian’s cocksure report that has me worried for two reasons: (1) They are having a formal meeting today in which Cesc will ask out and Arsene will allow it – something which will demonstrably happen or not, and if/when it doesn’t, then the Guardian would/should have massive egg on its face; (2) that (1) will happen today because Gazidis and Rossell – whose relationship has become cozy – have already reached an entente on Cesc to the tune of 35-40M. I worry because the Guardian is not a tabloid rag (albeit pro-ManUre in football bias), and have been soooo specific in pegging their loathsome allegation to Today. In other words, I’m worry this time because they are risking being utterly and easily refuted, and called out for being so blatantly wrong. Again, we shall see what happens today and I will be elated to have them proven so viciously wrong and hopefully have finally learned my lesson for being too credulous.

  • Gooner Gal

    @ silly billy, still no killer article? What sort of explaination are you after, I will see if I can oblige.

    So you can go back to Le grove any time you feel? I wonder if they would be happy for you to tell what kind of article they should or shouldn’t be writing, like you did earier to Tony.

  • Cape Gooner

    Gooner Gal
    July 4th, 2011 at 9:43 pm
    @ Bob, I have found recently that Untold pages take a while to load. I am not sure if its a connection problem my end.

    Me too – but only with IE. Google Chrome works a treat!

  • WalterBroeckx

    For Untold I don’t use IE anymore as I got problems with the loading speed. I now use Mozilla firefox and then I don’t have any problem. But I will mention it to Tony. It happened before in the past and it was down to some kind of code or well it could be anything as I only know I have to press enter now and then to make things move a bit…

  • Jitty

    @ Praam

    You are missing Declan Hill’s point.

    No fixing gets ‘found’ in the UK because no one is tasked and resourced to find it.

    This is in the same way that no fraud was found at Portsmouth, despite it being an obvious carousel. HMRC were the only ones who made any effort at all. Leeds was another obvious fraud.

    Declan Hill has detailed how Greece has cleaned house because chief prosecutor made it her mission.

  • Notoverthehill

    The triangle under attack was always Koscielny, Clichy and Wilshere. If Clichy pushed forward, then Arshavin had to be in a forward position, did he not?

    This unfortunate habit of blaming someone else for young Wilshere’s failings is simply not on. A ball over the top isolated Wilshere because of lack pf pace and height. This BTW did not hinder Nobby Stiles, Billy Bremner and countless others. Check the Clichy statistics for last season and he was better than Ashley Cole, Leighton Baines etc. For some unknown reason Clichy would panic or make a mistake in some matches..

  • bob

    Woolwich Peripatetic,
    My third reply to you: I would add and concur with jitty 11:17 which directly relevant to what you opine at 7:38.

  • willybilly

    @ gooner gal,

    Every day I tell Le love what types of article they should be writing, and no they don’t like it, but aside a few idiots, most will debate with me. So my idea of a day when people of differing view points get together on le grove, I think could be a chance to be positive. Forget fighting fire with fire, try fighting madness with sense.

    Ans as for what someone said above about it being exactly what the press would love to twist, ie civil war between fans.
    But ALL the press are reporting on now is unrest in the fanbase. What would be the harm in showing there are still lots of us who still believe in the way the club is run?.

    Again to re-itterate I said I was unhappy with what I found when I came here, not for the quality or content that was on display, which was all good, but for the timing of it.

    Wenger has NEVER been under this pressure, wouldn’t it be wise to print ALL you can to defend him, over the next few weeks in particular.

    So I wasn’t out to insult anyone, certainly if they hod the same views that I do.

    If you noticed, I did not criticise what tony was writing, I criticised whether it was the right time to write it!

    You should try reading peoples comments b4 going on the offensive.

  • bob

    This is rich: Seep Bladder is now visiting Robert Mugabe with 1M to help Zimbabwe fend off possible corruption and develop talent. Not a word about video technology. But while Greece, Turkey, Israel, Hungary, Germany and Finland erupt in scandal, Bladder, who just joined Platini to denounce video technology as unnecessary and unwanted, has become the cop on the beat in Zimbabwe. Now what that 1M would do to help finance a proper system of safeguards hereabouts, to fend off the “foreign contagion” is left for the fair-minded. But anyone who doesn’t see through his African gambit is really feeble-minded. Then again, this display of apparent incompetence is exactly his mission – a master at diversion and a lightning rod for outrage such as fuels this posting. Have a look: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/jul/05/sepp-blatter-robert-mugabe-fifa

  • Gooner Gal

    @ Silly Billy,

    Seriously, are you saying that you post comments on blogs advising the blog owners what kind of articles they should and shouldn’t be writing about? And anyone that doesn’t agree with your point of view is an idiot?

    Out of interest when do you think it would be a good time to discusswide spread corruption in football? Maybe you could post a killerarticle for all bloggers to follow. After all there might be a few more bloggers out there that don’t realise that the media are being a bit negative about Arsenal and Arsene Wenger.

    Failing that, don’t leave it to Tony, why don’t you write an article that will show everyone that there are still some that believe in the current way the club is run?

  • Gooner Gal

    @ Cape Gooner & Walter, thanks for the info. If it gets any slower, I might switch.

  • Gooner Gal

    @ bob it seems like Bladder gave $1m to Mugabe to keep funding his lifestyle and prop up his government.

    I would much rather Bladder gave £500m back to South Africa so that the fragile country was able to build houses, infrastructure and stop millions and future South African generations from being enslaved to debt.

  • Woolwich Peripatetic

    @bob,
    Sorry,for the delay. I’m not going to deny the possibility of a conspiracy to ‘fix’ the EPL in favour of a team. Not am I going to deny that somrthing odd seems to happen whenever we play. But using the example of the moon landings, by the time you’ve gone to the expense and effort to fake them, it would have been cheaper and easier to put men on the moon.
    The likelihood of keeping the manipulation of the league in favour of Manure secret, for nineteen years, is fairly low.
    However to totally undermine my own argument:
    What if the FA itself is rigging the matches? Because the last thing they want is the erosion of their core brand. Wenger’s vision of the English game looks awfully like the spanish league. If 15 teams started playing slow methodical possession football, the world would change channel and watch something else. The reality is the league would be better with five Arsenals and fifteen Blackpools but I doubt the FA have the vision to see it that way.

  • bob

    Woolwich Peripatetic,
    Thanks, and I fully agree with your analysis of brand-preservation. As for 19 years of secrecy, it would be foolhardy to assert it and I have no idea. I’m looking at the last two seasons and when I see Andy Kelly’s link to ManUre’s big win, and think of Riley’s ascendancy in its wake, I’m sorely tempted to think there’s been something afoot from 2000/2001. But of course no absolute proof, as yet. Anyway, I’m glad we’re on the same web page and we do converge a good bit. Cheers.

  • Domhuaille MacMathghamhna

    Two questions…..what does Clichy have to do with European corruption and what or which bodies in the UK are charged with supervising,investigating and moderating potential corruption in Football?
    It would be innane to pretend that what seems to be happening in europe could and would not happen in the UK. There are more bookies per square metre there than fish and chips shops! Gambling is a very big industry in Britain and that being the case, the criminals,mafia, corrupt politicians and some rotten Football administrators/owners must flock to this golden calf like flies to feces. My feeling (unfounded so far) is that there is illegal manipulation of some key matches going on but it is so sheltered by the powers that be and the government agencies turning a blind or indifferent eye, thanks to discrete payoffs handed to their minions by the criminal interests.
    Is the UK the next in line for a scandalous revelation?