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Usmanov & Kroenke, RVP & Dein: Who is who, what is what?

By Walter Broeckx

 

Only 2 days ago I decided to write something that was meant to be funny in a way. Something that I thought was so silly that most people who understand English and certainly those who know me would realise that I was just having a laugh.

 

I was having a laugh about the ITK people (I had one sharp reader who noticed it – congratulations), having a laugh with Kroenke and Usmanov (a mild one in fact) and having a laugh with “Arry and his dog-account” and his way of buying and selling the same players wherever he went and goes.  I all put this in a format and made sure that I used enough stupid words and abbreviations so that people would get the message from the start. Looking at the comments some missed it. But that will be due to my bad English but hey if even Arry can  make it to become Spurs manager and not being able to write and read properly there is still hope for me.

 

But however since then a series of events have brought my wild ramblings in another perspective. What I will try to do is to bring a bit of an Untold perspective to the events. Some thoughts I have on what we have seen happening in the last 48 hours.

 

The Robin Van Persie statement was the start of a bizarre series of events.  To start with: is there anyone out there who really thinks this was the idea of Robin and that he had written this himself?  I wonder if it was Vos (one of his managers) or maybe someone else from his management team that had written this. Maybe someone who had connections to a particular group that has an interest in Arsenal?

 

Because as soon as the statement came out it didn’t take very long before an open letter came from the Red and White Holdings owned by the second biggest hare holder Usmanov. In this letter he made all kinds of critical comments on the current board, owner and Mr. Gazidis.

 

The only small amount of time between the two statements raised my eyebrows. It just gave an impression that the second letter was already partially written when the first arrived. Because it was critical in  both cases for Mr. Gazidis. The RVP statement claiming that he was on a 14 day holiday right now. This has by the way been denied by another board member or director on twitter. And by a picture of Gazidis with one of the torch carriers from Arsenal.

 

And in the Usmanov letter the R&W holding was critical for Mr. Gazidis for writing a letter to one of the companies owned by Usmanov (the 3rd Russian phone company they claim). Now I thought it was part of the job for Mr. Gazidis to work on better sponsor ships deal. So writing to the 3rd (and maybe 1st and 2nd also) phone company from Russia was not a bad move? So it shows that Gazidis and his team are actually trying to improve the sponsor deals for Arsenal. Yet Usmanov is critical for this? I cannot understand this to be honest.

 

In fact if I look at this I cannot understand Usmanov at all. He claims he only wants the best for Arsenal. And now his company (he owes more than 50% of them) could become shirt sponsor for Arsenal in the future and instead of jumping on the occasion he write a letter of complaint to the Arsenal board. If he really would only have the best of interest for Arsenal he would tell his company: offer them £100M a year for the next 10 years and double it the year we win something.  That would be showing not with words but by doing things that you are a real 100% Arsenal supporter and want the best for the club.  Now Mr. Usmanov only complains about the fact that he was asked?

 

What about FFP rules you ask? Wouldn’t that be a problem if Usmanov would sign such a deal? Well I don’t think so. Because Usmanov is not on the board of Arsenal. So it could not be considered as a trying to avoid the FFP rules. In fact it is well know and documented that Usmanov wants to get Kroenke out himself. So a company who wants to make the current board leave sponsoring the club cannot be seen as a back door to avoid FFP rules. Usmanov is an enemy of the current board so no need to pay over the tops. Unless he just want to sponsor us that much he pays over the top.

 

And by paying the money Usmanov will show that he only wants best for Arsenal. All I see from that now is words but no actions. Even when he could take action like with the sponsorship deal.

 

Now Arsenal are in the middle of a mess with two billionaires fighting on the streets and causing unrest and trouble in the club. And as a result  some people call for the return of Dein.

Now I don’t have anything personal against Dein  and I want to underline that Dein has done some wonderful things for Arsenal in the past.  But if we analyse the situation a bit we have 4 big players in the current messy situation.

1 Robin Van Persie and his team of agents : Vos and Darren Dein.

2. Stan Kroenke

3. Alisher Usmanov.

 

And then if we think on what they all have in common we end up with one person… David Dein.

It was David Dein who helped bringing RVP in and who has his own son acting as one of the agents for RVP.

It was David Dein who brought in Stan Kroenke at first

It was David Dein then who turned to Usmanov.

 

So in short if there is one person responsible for the mess we face now,  by bringing all of them together at Arsenal…it is David Dein. So what would a return of David Dein bring? A solution or even more troubles?

 

Well I’m not sure but I do know that by bringing in the billionaires David Dein he has brought in, we have  the trouble we now face today. So excuse me for not going overly wild of enthusiasm about the thought of him being involved even more in Arsenal. What would he do next? Bring in another billionaire so they can even fight more?

 

To use the words in my poem earlier I just would say to all of them: Just go then, why don’t you all just go then and let Arsenal in peace. If you don’t want to spend your personal money in Arsenal that is fine for me. We just run it with the money we earn. But why don’t you all  stop pretending to be the one and only saviour by talking a lot but not showing any action even when you could. I don’t know if it all is a big coincidence or that people are doing things in order to get some things happening or done.  So it all is guessing and trying to figure out what really is happening. But my message is this:

Why don’t you all just leave us alone with your stupid back room fighting.  Because if there is one thing bad for our club than it is that back room fight for power.

If I may use the words our chairman once said and this is how I feel right now about all those billionaires around our club: “we don’t need your sort over here.”

Arsenal is a well run and sustainable club without one pound being put in by those billionaires so leave us alone. Just Go and let Arsenal do it their own way: The Arsenal way.

161 comments to Usmanov & Kroenke, RVP & Dein: Who is who, what is what?

  • 712004

    fact is kroenke is majority owner, he is a disaster on every level and he could own our beloved arsenal and run it like this as he does his st louis rams ie losers, for decades, you want this?

    usmanov wants to invest

  • Todd

    I’ll give you a decade, but the plural is too much. The Rams won the superbowl in 1998 or 1999.

    This is a bit different. He didn’t take over the rams and then they got bad. They were bad and they got better. Plus he didn’t take controlling interest in the Rams until 2011. Not saying he’s the best owner, but don’t knock it till we’ve tried it…..

  • Rizal

    Yeah you say that let Arsenal do it their owns ways and this same statement also ran miles across many Arsenal fans website,blog and etc, but then from these sites also that keep on bitching about how bad Arsenal current position are and how Arsenal should be manage. Are you guys mad or what or perhaps you guys don’t realize it. I find it soo amusing.

  • Den

    It is too late to be writing such articles.Usmanov is only complaining about the procedure Gazidis is using in acquiring sponsorship deals which is not the best.Are u happy to have these old men(65,78,72 etc) run Arsenal.They are old & so are their decisions & ideas.Kroenke has never been a fan of football (soccer) yet alone Arsenal.Non of his sports franchise has won anything because he keeps these teams as average as possible only to benefit financially so to say Arsenal has sold its soul to the devil.Maybe you don’t pay such huge ticket prices to watch an average team whose main ambition is just to be part of a top four finish & not get relegated(by Peter Hillwood,chairman AFC). Support the right course man,because this FFP thing has loopholes which will be exploited by Madrid,Barca etc.Wake up man & smell the coffee because your beloved Arsenal so you claim is sinking.By the way how many Arsenal matches has Kroenke watched since he took over.Is it not through that the current board lacks direction & ideas

  • Mark T

    hmm i personally would welcome usmanov in, yes there is some controversy about how he made his money but there is to 90% of those who make billions. but their needs to be a balance as we already make a lot of money we need to just spend more and have a small injection of cash from usmanov.

    and i reckon the reason usmanov berated gazidis is because the board are saying they don’t want his money yet go to him for sponsorship?? if he signed the sponsorship deal then their would be no say really in how it is spent where if he gave the money he could probably make it so they are spent on signings wages etc. basically if he gave the sponsorship money it would be like giving it to us but could just go into kroenke’s pocket and it not being spent on transfer’s imagine usmanov pledging 1b over 10 years and kroenke just pocketing it whilst usmanov is trying to take over.

    but if we could get a 1b sponsorship over 10 years it should be allowed if city can get their 400m one approved..:D

  • gunner17

    the gangster should keep his nose out, i don’t want arsenal tainted by his sort.

    the dein’s are up to something for sure. very duplicitous.

    i support gazidis, i think he’s awesome.

  • Andrew Crawshaw

    Self made bIllionaires are unlikely to have got that rich by being nice people, they all have a ruthless streak to be able to extract the maximum from any deal they enter into. To have two of them fighting over our club can only bring disaster. To give Usamov a seat on the board will be as unthinkable for Kronke as it would be for Usamov. Both are Alpha Males and neither is likely to give way. To have one such person involved is bad. Two is many times worse.

    I understand that the Lesser Dean is involved with Song so I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a statement from him soon to add to the instability. I am not sure if there is any such link to Theo.

    I really fear that we are in for a prolonged spell of infighting with the intent of further destabilising our preparations for the new season so that Usamov can come over the hill like the cavalry bringing a troop of soldiers with him. Captain Cesc, Sergeant Robin and Trooper Na$ri among them.

  • Mark T

    to me this says a lot:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jul/06/peter-hill-wood-arsenal-alisher-usmanov?

    that hill wood is motivated by money and how can he say that their is no reason for kroenke or any shareholder’s to invest any of their own money jheeze… to me this just shows that they are only in it for profit….

  • Lol

    Americans dont know football, maybe gridiron but definately not ‘soccer’. Russians do. Case closed.

  • ieuan

    i dont understand y the person who has written this article is expecting usmanov to pile money in when he is not the majority share holder, so he doesnt even get to decide what to do with it once it has gone in to the arsenal account

  • BDA

    Anybody that owns a few sports clubs that play different sports ,doesn’t concentrate on them all and comes from a country that calls football soccer needs to and should stay as far away from Arsenal as possible

  • Mahdain

    i would advise some of you research on Usmanov before jumping on bandwagon..that man is scum of the highest order and if anything then his latest PR stunt just proves he has no interest in our club wellbeing whatsoever and how anyone can want him on board is beyond me.. Are you people that naive to think he’ll just give us his money as charity without wanting it back? Give me a break…

  • Tristan

    “Supporting the Lord Wenger; Coach of the decade”

    Now, there is no doubting Wenger is a great coach. No one doubts that, at least in terms of Arsenal supporters, and pretty much everyone in football.

    BUT, come on guys. A phrase like ‘it’s not as if we’ve been relegated’ by Hill Wood, completely ignores the 1 fact everyone should be acknowledging. As individual supporters, we pay the most on a match day of anyone in this country. I personally think we should see a direct correlation between the amount the supporters pay, and the investment in the team. Or am I wrong? Please feel free someone to correct me, but at least acknowledge the point and rebuff it. If you can. I have no other conclusion to come to other than the board are sucking the cash out of the supporters, without this cash being reinvested. It’s becoming quite obvious to me now. And Hill Wood says as much when he says ‘it’s not as if we’ve been relegated’. Well this is true, but we have the highest match day ticket prices in the land. For someone so rich, he doesn’t seem to have a great deal of sense.

    Sorry, I’ve been a fan of the self sustaining model for a long time, but I’m more a fan of Arsenal, and to be honest, I’ve grown weary of this moral high ground we seem to be taking. I just want to see us win again. And while we don’t, Wenger will never get the historical recognition he truly deserves, and we as supporters won’t feel the high of winning. This is my opinion.

    ps it’s a bad idea to place unconditional statements like ‘Supporting the Lord Wenger’. It’s not objective, so anything I read from you is tempered by it. Just a tip.

  • Mahdain

    and as far as David Dein is concerned as you say walter he is the main reason we are in this mess and thanks to his son we have been shafted of our best players due by ill advising them.. If Dein senior really is the saviour people are painting him to be then why is he doing nothing to stop his son screwing us?

  • 49Unbeaten

    Kroenkes’ teams haven’t won anything for ages. He wanted Arsenal because we generate our own cash and the risk is minimal and this means that he can make more from us to fund his beloved yank teams! Usmanov offered to pay off the stadium debts and the board said no! He wanted to introduce the new shares system (which would also give the oppotunity for fans to have more ownership of the club and bring us a few hundred mil’ to strengthen the team and be competetive with wages) and the board said no! He’s offered to buy out the weak and peanut paying sponsors that we have at the moment and get us much better deals that could double our profits and the board said no! Our board, lead by Kroenke, are crippling the club with pride and stubborness. We as fans just sit here like faithful puppies waiting to be thrown a steak but receiving nothing more than tripe, watching each year as we sell our best players and put the money back into the slush fund instead of re-investing in the team, having to pay the highest ticket prices in world football, and for waht? To see our ex players move on and win things whilst we make do with being a viable income for the yank and, in turn, being the team that’s forever in transition and winning f*ck all!!!!! Are you saying you lot are happy with this because it makes me feel sick! Our board treat us like idiots and tell us nothing. We must be the most loyal, and yet, the most patient, and yet, most gullable fans in the world. Seven years ago we were told that our youth system would be dominating the league within five years. And don’t even start telling me “but who could’ve seen the money being invested into Chelsea and Man’ city” bullsh*t because we’ve sold all the players that were going to win us things only to be left with ever revolving teams that can’t win a thing because by the time they’ve actually been turned into world class players we just sell them! Our board has turned Wenger into nothing more than a talent spotter for Barcelona and Man City and anybody else who cherry picks our players. What the hell is the point in spending years nurturing young talents in the world class players that we need but can’t afford to keep them long enough to win anything to keep them at the club?

  • bjtgooner

    Good article Walter. The fact that Arsenal is a well run club and has financial reserves makes it attractive to those who would exploit the resources. In fairness to Kroenke he has not taken money out of the club – so far. Further, Kronke seems content to let Wenger get on with managing the team. This must be a positive.

    Usmanov’s involvement in the club is a strange one. I agree that his letter appeared so soon after RVP’s that it looked as if he had prior knowledge of the RVP statement and had prepared his letter in advance. The substance of this letter, apart from showing Usmanov as a malevolent influence, is strangely similar to many of the attacks that the AAA and gutter press have made on the club over the last few years. The Usmanov letter shows that he is not suited to be on the board. I agree that the best thing for the club would be for Usmanov to clear off – but he won’t until he realises that he cannot achieve his ambition. Until he does go the instability will remain, the AAA will have him as a focus and Dein the Lesser will be further encouraged to move players out. It is horrid that such a fine club, with such super fans have to suffer due to the destructive ambition of one billionaire.

    Dein the Dad has had a heavy hand in all this and I suspect he also has not finished with the Arsenal.

  • Byo

    On related topic- Please read Des Kelly’s piece in the Daily Mail! I know, I was surprised that they will publish such too.

  • Tristam

    It would be really interesting to know what is David Dein doing these days. What does he actually want? Does he still harbour resentment about being dismissed from the board? What kind of information is being exchanged between him and his son? Is he still friends with Arsene? If we were to assume that Dein’s ambition is to regain his influence on Arsenal, then many events of recent years would suddenly start to make sense. He seems to be in a position that enables him to undermine the actions of the current board while keeping a low profile. The timing of the statements by van Persie and Usmanov was particularly suspicious and I don’t like this at all.

  • 9jagun

    PROTEST OUTSIDE EMIRATES STADIUM BY THE STATUE OF HENRY14
    SUNDAY 8TH JULY 1PM
    HOPE TO SEE YOU THERE!!!!!

    OUT WITH THE CURRENT BOARD!!

    REVOLUTION AT AFC!! ITS BEEN WAY TOO LONG AND WE HAVE GIVEN YOU WAY MORE CHANCES THAN YOU DESERVED! WE WANT USMANOV TO BRING US BACK TO WINNING WAYS AND NOT HILLWOOOD WHO SAYS ITS NOT LIKE WE HAVE BEEN RELEGATED AFTER MAKING 5.5 M POUNDS. AND THEY KEEP SELLING SHARES TO MR 6 CLUBS KROENKE WHO DOESNT UNDERSTAND FOOTBALL, OR IS IT BASKETBALL OR NHL OR SOCCER.

  • Domhuaille MacMathghamhna

    49Unbeaten….relax mate, take your valium and prozac and go buy a Spuds Mind the Gap mug! It is just your kind of ranting and whining about what misinformation you gullibly believe from the net and Usmanov that is feeding the Dein-Usmanov-AAA – shite media cabal:

    1)¨…this means that he can make more from us to fund his beloved yank teams!¨ Where did you vomit that lie from? His teams are all self-sufficient and don’t rely on any other income than what they generate…that is a typical North American model.

    2)The BoD has always had a different vision for AFC, rightly or wrongly, they refuse to alter this paradigm by admitting a somewhat shady Russian figure into the operations of the Club. That’s called being consistent and faithful to their mission and vision…whether it agrees with your AAA whiner tastes.

    3)¨We must be the most loyal, and yet, the most patient…fans in the world¨ – yes we are patient and loyal, but NOT gullible. You are in believing that Usmanov and R&W holdings are the answer to all our needs. You bought the Usmanov letter hook,line and sinker….without asking some key questions…but you don’t want to let the facts spoil your prejudices!

    4)Your claims that we have an ever-revolving team that can’t win anything is ludicrous: we came from 17th in September to 3rd in May and won our CL place despite massive injuries and serious loss of form at the start of the season. But wait! Its all Wenger and the Board’s fault for bringing in Gervinho, Per, Jenkinson, Arteta, Santos, the Ox and Benayoun…all pure shite acoording to your AAA biases. We do lose players like any other Club but we haven’t lost any really talented Youth or Reserve players and have improved our bench significantly with Academy graduates and we also buy top class replacements when we lose key players,just like any of the top Clubs worldwide, but more astutely and prudently…unlike those other rich playthings.

    Mate…get a life, stop living in the past and start enjoying our AFC like a real Gooner….or go support a club you actually think is doing things ¨properly¨ according to your Fantasy football manager’s divinely inspired expertise.

  • mark

    The MLS team that Kronke owns won the MLS a couple of years ago!

  • goonergerry

    It would be interesting to know exactly what financial penalties (referred to by PHW) Arsenal would face by clearing the roughly 200m stadium debt.

    Making an extra 20m available each year would do a lot to enable us to make us more competitive. (Arsenal would never have to spend what ManC and Chelsea do or to risk bankruptcy to become competitive).

    Its pretty obvious why Stan wouldn’t clear the debt even if he could-because share values will instantly sky-rocket-making Usmanov not only wealthier but more able-(as he has far more capital available) to launch a take over-and opening up the risk of take over from elsewhere.
    Would Kroenke sell his stake if it doubled in value? He isn’t a seller we know- he won’t want to do anything at all.

    As for you argument about “sustainability”
    It is self evident that the most important people at our club- our players- are not convinced by the current regime’s (and your) claims of “sustainability”. The captain of our team and best player, the previous captain and best player and the captain before him all left for the same major reason-the lack of a realistic chance of competing for silverware-plus an offer of more money elsewhere (though not in Cesc’s case).

    Tell me -who is in a better position to know what our chances are than RVP and Cesc before him? You? Arsene Wenger?
    If anyone can assess the value of a managers words it is his own captain.
    Without RVPs goals last year we would have finished 12th-the best case scenario.

    Presumably you want the whole lot to go away so that Arsenal can continue to be the feeder club we now clearly are-developing exceptional individuals for others to buy once they reach maturity. Entering competitions each year without a realistic chance of competing for the top prizes-and all in order to have a perfect looking balance sheet.
    I dont.

  • Charlie

    Seriously ? Van Persies’ letter written bt R&W ? That’s paranoid nonsense and if it was RvP would at the very least have said so. No, the truth is that repeatedly players who know what is going on behind the scenes are turning their backs on it while you try to argue against it without knowing what’s going on. So Usmanov isn’t squeaky clean, neither is Abramovich, not by a long way, and yet he has done so much good for Chelsea. It is irrelevant what goes on in the background if he has in mind what is best for Arsenal. Gazidis fails in every negotiation that he has with players so why is he still there ?

  • Aussie Jack

    Dein and son. They live (like many others) in a world of shadows so once van Persie leaves we may see a ray of sunshine. “Depart, I say; and let us be done with you. In the name of God, go!” Sounds a bit dramatic I agree but I thought I might as well join the circus.lol

  • Stable Gooner

    Are you guys insane? How long before you have another Portsmouth, Leeds, Leicester, and the likes, on your hands?

    As late as May, 2012, Glasglow Rangers was a big club, wasn’t it?!

    You want sugar daddies, whores romancing your club. Well, tell you what:

    1. your club is either a business venture for them to sell to whoever for money when things are tight, not minding where the money is coming from, nor if the investment is genuine. If you think it’s a lie, look across the land just as far as Liverpool

    2. your club is, if not 1 above, a play tool; a toy; a teddy bear, to them. And guess what you do to play tools when you’re done?

    You can’t seriously be thinking that these people on the board, who have stood by Arsenal through the ages will suddenly be bad for club because Usmanov has said so.

    GIVE US A BREAK, PEOPLE!

  • shagx

    I think you’re missing the point! The Russian feels aggrieved because Gazidis didn’t go to him directly for the sponsorship deal. And if the Russian does have the best interest for Arsenal, he would feel aggrieved because all these time, he claims he wanted to help, but no one seems to want it and now Arsenal is looking for sponsorship from one of his company. Wouldn’t you feel angry if you were him?

    You have a good point with David Dein. But to be honest I would much rather have him back then to have Gazidis. Don’t get me wrong, I think Gazidis is doing a good job, but Dein just have that bit of charisma that can influence on and off the pitch. No one dares to bully us when Dein was around but now, we’re being bullied on and off the pitch. Dein also had a way with the players, he could pretty much convince anyone into staying. With Gazidis, you get the feeling he’s just all business with Dein, he give you a feeling of passion. At one point Dein pretty much owned Arsenal and then he was cast out, so it’s only natural he feels aggrieved, after all he did build this modern Arsenal. He brought in Arsene Wenger, who is now the best manager in our history and one of the best in the world. He brought in Kroenke and now Usmanov to try to take back control. I think Dein has vision, it’s obvious he see things aren’t working out and Arsenal could fall, that’s why he did what he did.

    However, if Usmanov does end up getting his 30%, would he make things better? I’m not so sure. But I’m 100% sure this, all these board directors have one thing in common, they’re in it for the money, make no mistake of that. As long as the war at the back continues we’ll continue to loose our best players and will continue to fall short at the title and cups. We need to sort things out sooner rather than later. Usmanov isn’t going away and this war between the board and the Russian is damaging Arsenal. They must sit down and talk it through. Otherwise this will fast becoming a soap opera.

  • Prasanna Veeraraghavan

    I endorse what Aussie Jack is saying. Lets get rid of the Dein’s family and their players. It shall be done now and then we run the show on our own. Lets not have this guy anymore.

    I don’t get to understand how Arsenal will fund Kroenke’s Yankee pursuits, do we pay dividends? Share the profits with share holders? I have not read anywhere so.

    If at all Kroenke’s gonna make money out of this, he ought to sell his shares and he ought to sell it for a bigger value. Its pretty simple.

  • Lanz

    Does anyone remember an interview in which David Dein said he had unfinished business at Arsenal? Please post the link. Perhaps we are presently witnessing the “business”? Is it true that Dein the less is also Alex Song’s agent? If so, it may very well be even a worse summer for Wenger who said thw last was his worst ever.

  • david dein is the reason behind half of our signings e.g henry pires etc david dein is a business man a very good one when he was at arsenal we were actualy signing players and by signing i mean theyre contracts and players coming in too wenger and dekn got on great since dein left eeve gone downhill

  • Shard

    shagx

    Why would Arsenal approach Usmanov directly for sponsorship. They don’t want HIS image on the shirt. They want the company’s logo.. And that my friend, is a decision that company’s board will take. ANd if you read Usmanov’s letter. He himself claims he’s not on the board of ANY of the companies he holds shares in. So..by what logic should Gazidis have spoken to him? ANd that is assuming that what Usmanov said is even true.. I bet its not the whole truth anyway. Much like the rest of his letter.

  • Damien Luu

    Haha, I come too late to say: “Prepare for the Usmanov propagandizing team!”

    They throw out some bullsh*t balloons, and some morons eat them like… well, morons.

  • Shard

    Charlie

    Abramovich has been at Chelsea less than 10 years. I think I’ll reserve judgment on how good he’s been for Chelsea.

  • Naren

    Broeckx,
    Are you really sure one of Usmanov’s companies becoming the shirt sponsor is not a ‘conflict of interest’? You see even the Etihad deal was not a violation- at least till now, because Man City have not been charged- as the airline is owned by the step-brother of the club owner.
    Is that a violation by the letter of the law? No. Is it, however, a violation by the spirit of the law? Yes.

    Neither you nor I would want Usmanov any closer to the Club than this, do we?

  • Shard

    and besides, for one Abramovich or Mansour.. there are literally TENS of other examples of billionaires with promises where it all went horribly wrong pretty soon.

  • Shard

    Naren

    So far, we just know that Usmanov SAYS that Gazidis approached the company in which he has shareholding. IF Gazidis did do that, it’s something I would prefer not to. But you know what? So what.. Usmanov claims he wants to give us money, let him do it. If not, we’ll find other sponsorships. And besides.. Usmanov himself claims he’s not on the board of any company (I’m sure his lackeys are) So, legally, he has no direct involvement. Not on the board of Arsenal, not on the board of the other company. Shouldn’t lead to FFP problems.

  • Shard

    I’d like to know why he thought we should have interest in what companies Gazidis is approaching for sponsorship. Why it should affect us that he’s shareholder there. Maybe the whole thing was a clumsy attempt to target Gazidis. Maybe there’s a message behind it, which is not really meant for the fans. It’s strange though. At no point did that revelation lead me to go, oh WOW..My reaction was..”So?”

  • Mike

    You know the more I read this sort of complete and utterly obvious misdirection and misrepresentation of exactly what the “real reason” behind Alsiher Usmanov’s open letter, the more I am both exasperated by the blinkered attitude of some sections of so called Arsenal fans, and/or suspicious of what exactly the reason is behind this “response”and/or some of the responses is it in itself part of some sinister campaign supported by our board and majority shareholder Kronke.

    The reason I question this respponse is that it is so completely anti Usmanov and misses the fundemental points made all of which can be emphatically substantiated I will just make a brief highlight to prove exactly what is said is true;

    To begin with the insinuation that it was written in collusion with Robin Van Persie’s statement release is ridiculous, but I would agree that it was the catalyst behind Usmanov’s letter, because like all true Arsenal fans his faith in the way the club is being destroyed by the way the standard of the playing staff is being lowered year on year, so much so that if RVP leaves we will not have a single top rated world class player left, and questions in the minds of the likes of Walcott, Vermaelen, and even Oxlaade-Chamberlain and Willshire will be raised as to whether thier future should remain with our club.

    The observation as to our aspirations for the future as also pretty much exactly as was confirmed in statements by Gazidis,Hill-wood & Arsene himself in that finishing forth is what they see as a successful season. This is NOT the aspirations of a top club (would the likes of Barcelona,Man Utd,Real Madrid, Bayern, etc., accept just qualifying for the UCL as success and be their target, the answer is no and their fans wouldn’t accept it either, and you can now add Man City,Chelsea,PSG,to the list).

    Arsenal are rapidly falling away from being recognised as being a top club in the world and again in Usmanov’s letter he understands this and he spells out the obvious consequences in that it leads to a downwards spiral of events in that sales worldwide of the Arsenal Brand will diminish as will the worldwide attraction to be associated as a fan of the club, not only will it lose immediate appeal to the older fanbase but it will miss out on the kids who aare the next generation of fan…and that is a serious loss.

    With regard to his comment of how we the current fans are treated is absolutely true as is the comment about the old board. We are overcharged for supporting a team of also rans(much as I hate to say it), and of a lessor quality than we have seen in more than a decade, and I for one like what Usmanov proposes about the issue of shares so that we the fans can buy into the club once more – whilst providing the club with more income. We see the Board members who made a bundle out of selling off our famous ground Highbury and endebting the club for years, but after pushing their share value high they sold out making fortunes for themselves, with Dennis Hill-Wood being the chief instigator behind the somewhat “dirty tricks” campaign that he orchestrated in collusion with others on the old Board.

    It is now unfortunately the real world where billionaires are buying and investing in football clubs, this is not strange to Arsenal as we were the Toy of Henry Norris and who without his money and financial influence, the club would probably have been wound up, it certainly would never have moved to North London, would not have been able to bring in the great Herbet Chapman, and would not have brought in the top players of their time as Norris made many “bonus” payments to entice players to our club. And exactly who do you think have been the main owners and people running the club?? certainly not the ordinary man! Just go back and look at the board up to say 2004, most were either exx Eatonians, millionaires then there was Sir/Lady Bracewell-Smyth.

    So being owened by a billionaire is now the way of the world and I for one would rather have a proactive one a la Usmanov, rather than Stan Kronke who is a well known acquisition hoarder of sports clubs from who he takes profit but never invests money even if a cash injection is needed, why mainly because his money is tied up in property and business he is not financially equitable when it comes to investing cash of his own. Usmanov on the other hand has set out clearly exactly what he will/would do given control of the club, ie make funds available to Arsene Wenger to build a squad of Top players with home grown players then coming through to help build a truly world class side as per the Barcelona model, who buy top players when necessary and also bring through there own stars of the future.

    Usmanov also makes the clear and unequivacal statement that he is in for the long haul and is not, as is quite cleverly put out, just using the club as his plaything or a means to take on Abramovich at Chelsea in a game of big boys with money playing off against each other! But in thinking about it in basic terms hasnt that what football has been about for a long time with the big men on the boars wanting to outdo the others, but isnt that what it is about at all levels? Dont we want to out do the likes of Chelsea, Man U, Sp*rs etc., If we dont then fine lets just sit back, let Kronke take his profits, let the club sell off any top player that we get and lets just be satisfied with maybe finishing in the top 4 – IS THAT WHAT YOU REALLY WANT?

    Our club has always been recognised as one of the BIG CLUBS of the Premier League, now there is a real and true danger that we will lose this place, and oce it has been lost it will be almost impossible to get back there. Lets not let it get to this we have to recognise that the saying ” IF YOU CAN’T BET THEM JOIN THEM” tag is at this time very true and we must support Usmanov to achive it! PUT ARSENAL BACK WHERE WE BELONG — AT THE TOP!!!!!

  • rusty

    As an American (from Denver, Colorado, no less), Kroenke isn’t the type to dump a lot of his money into a club, but neither is he the type to take money out of it. And indeed, the Arsenal board continues not to take dividends from the profits, but they also attempt to spend only what they take in.

    How many more clubs need to be ruined by spiraling debt or ownership by unfit persons before the aaa will give up on their demands for Usmanov or another billionaire to take the reins? Portsmouth is back in administration, as just months after they were taken over by a Russian banking tycoon, he was arrested and they were revealed to have been tax-dodging and failing to make payroll. Was the FA Cup worth the carousel of dodgy owners?

  • Shard

    Lets see.. Arsenal lose on the field of play, due to a variety of factors. The usual blame goes to Wenger buying cheap, buying shit players (which is the same as buying cheap inevitably), and as an extension, because we know better, we’ll blame Wenger’s tactics. Everything else, whether it be referees, injuries, or tapping up.. Arsenal deserve no sympathy.. Right.. They lost..That’s it..Stop moaning.. Right?

    Well Usmanov lost the battle to own more shares than Kroenke at Arsenal. Tough.. All the talk in the world won;t change the fact that he can do diddly squat about that, and so he keeps moaning like a fat bitch.. Why then does he get these people’s sympathy? Only because he says the things you want to hear? Talk is cheap.. If Usmanov is only interested in giving Arsenal money, he doesn;t need to be owner to do that. And by the way, Kroenke may be in charge, but he isn’t the owner either. In that sense, whatever disqualification lies against Usmanov spending money without owning Arsenal, also goes to Kroenke. Why should he spend his own money? Usmanov only says he will spend. He hasn’t spent a penny on Arsenal yet.

  • shagx

    Shard

    I’m not saying Arsenal should approach Usmanov directly, but that’s what I feel his letter implies. It doesn’t matter if he’s not on the board of director for that company, he holds more than 50%, he owns that company!
    What his letter is basically saying is, “I wanted to help Arsenal, but you clowns don’t want it, and now you’re looking for sponsorship from one of my company? Are you freaking stupid?”

    I’m not defending Usmanov here, I’m just stating that must be how he sees it. I’m not a Usmanov fan nor a Kroenke fan, as far as I’m concern, they’re all in it for the money. However, Usmanov’s letter do have a few valid points but his letter will only distance him from the board even more.

    Put Arsenal on the share market? You must be joking, they will never allow that! That means all their decision will be challenged, they will have to tell the world pretty much everything, and they will loose control of the club. Usmanov is just going with the crowd here, he’s trying to get the fans approval. More transparency? Who doesn’t want that? Which fan wouldn’t want to know more about his club but more importantly, it would be much easier for Usmanov to increase his market share on Arseanl. That’s is the reason why, Arsenal refused Usmanov’s loan deal. The more money the Russian put into Arsenal, the more involve he becomes, which is exactly what Arsenal don’t need.

    Each club has it’s own formula to function and I think we have one that just might work! But it requires own great manager to again work his magic and more importantly we need the unconditional support from our club and fans from top to bottom, which we’re not getting at the moment!

  • ATAF

    I don’t support kroenke or usmanov, I support arsenal!

  • Shard

    shagx

    Agreed.. We also need to not have our efforts sabotaged by refereeing decisions on the pitch. If we had that.. I am certain we’d have won trophies by now.

    Usmanov can view it however he wants. His piece of propaganda is transparent enough to see through for all but the ones blinded by their belief that Arsenal are crap. Arsenal don;t compete. Arsenal are in constant decline. Nonsense. We’ve always competed. Always. We just haven;t quite won yet. And that again.. I think is down to factors outside of our control.

  • rusty

    @Mike said (in a long, long post that I sincerely hope he didn’t copy from another forum): “So being owened by a billionaire is now the way of the world and I for one would rather have a proactive one a la Usmanov”…

    Well, several clubs are now owned by corporations (e.g. Gazprom and Zenit, VW and Wolfsburg, Red Bull and Salzburg), and the practice is virtually required in leagues like Japanese baseball. If it’s successful, why not just become Tesco Arsenal or Kraft Foods Arsenal or some such? Look at poor Cardiff City, whose billionaire owner asked that their Bluebirds become red-birds! So maybe Tesco Arsenal asks the club to change some of the decor around the stadium, maybe “modernize” the crest, switch the font, change the motto to “Every little helps”, if it gets us a Cup final? I just don’t see where it ends.

  • shagx

    Shard

    Don’t get me started with the ref decision! FA is so old and stubborn and so proud of themselves for god knows what! It’s so obvious that a lot of different stuff can help the ref out when the time calls but Nooooo, they don’t want to bloody listen. The camera slows the flow of the game they say! What flow? If the ref didn’t need to deal with the players erupting, the flow would be much better don’t you think? If the stupid refs have more common sense and know what playing advantage means like in rugby, we have more flow and a better game!

    Have to say, I’m impressed with the signings so far………until the RVP incident. Now we might be one striker down again! Freaking pixxing me off! But I’m sure we can either keep him or find another replacement! Wenger will pull us through! I have faith!

  • colario

    According to Wiki, Usmanov is on the board of Moscow Dinamo FC. I believe there is an FA rule that no one can be a board member of two football clubs in Europe. This would mean at the moment Usmanov can not be an Arsenal board member.

    For him to be on the Arsenal board he would first have to resign from Dinamo which according to Wiki is his first love.

    I suppose he could resign from Dinamo, join Arsenal’s board then get his own man on the boardm resig then become a member of Dinamo board again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alisher_Usmanov

  • ARSENAL 13

    @shagx…why do you think we are one striker down. May be departure of RVP will get the best out of Chamak OR may be this was needed to find a place for Afobe.

  • George

    What ever you say to try and defend the board its not working and i dont buy it at all what ever the case the current board is a total failure so i wouldnt mind giving Usmanov a chance to try his method coz even koroenke is looking for money in arsenal as well but what hurts is that he wants to get money without investing in the team. So pliz keep your funny theories and conspiracies to your self Gazidiz is just useless. No wonder we have lagged behind so much coz we have fans like you who cannot wake and realize football has changed this 2012 pliz can u come from dream land.

  • Gerry Lennon

    I love the bit when @49unbeaten (and in similar vein @Mike) quoted ‘…. they are treating us fans like idiots’
    It has a sort of self-explanation ring to it … ergo, if you believe all that tosh about wanting to ‘help’ the club, you are, Im afraid, an idiot’.
    If you cannot see beyond what R&W have said, and have even the slightest inkling as to what the future would hold if they gained even slightly more of a foothold in the club, then I feel sorry for you.
    What ever happened to the FA’s rules on unsavoury people being involved in football?? Bribed off or too timid?

  • don

    honestly! we the fans r the fools.they r all in it meaning agreement,wenger n the board.the club lacks ambition and would only act under pressure like the risk they were willin to take last season after sellin our star players,it had to take a hammerin from man u for them to react,they r all in it for the money not for the progress of the club,their lnterests were at risk makin them panic buy at the last minute.wenger is the main culprit because his the sturborn,arrogant one who can make changes but chooses not too,they r all in it.lets not be idiots,we knew the minute podolski’s purchase was backed with giroud,vp was to be sold.we r the most tolerant fans n if we don’t protest seriously for ambiion n progression in the club,the club will stagnate like its done for the last 8yrs.we even have a manager whose ideas r obsolete,his become tactically inept but still talks on extending his contract at the club with nothin to show for,thats how complacent he is,we need new injection like usmanov n demand more answers,demonstrate more,boycott games or else we r fucked! will soon get ourselves in the mid tables like the once mighty liverpool

  • shagx

    Arsenal 13

    I said we “might be” 1 striker down. No desperate to Chamak and other strikers we current have, but they are not at the same league as RVP. I’m not bigging RVP up! I’m just stating the fact. I’ve seem him play through out his time at Arsenal, he is in the same league as Dennis & Henry! Make no mistakes about that! Players like these don’t come around ever year. I’ve seem a lot of different strikers from different team, most so call huge names don’t measure up to RVP. His touch, his movement on & off the ball, he’s passing, he’s vision. He has the whole package. He is simply top 3 player in the world. Loosing him is much bigger in my view then loosing Cesc & Nasri. One don’t really defend and the other only gives you half a season. By the way, I am a Fiberglass fan. He’s a brilliant player. But if we loose RVP, we’re loosing a great captain as well.

  • Legolas

    every other year we face this problem with such Immature Board but what drive me crazy is the fans , lot of Arsenal fans
    (who claim they are fans) when they see their team down they attack them last year we had the worse and the great scenarios lot of fans turned 180 degree . from the beginning of the season i ask every true fan to stand right now behind the team i believe in Wenger and i am sure we will do something but we need the fans support COYGGGGGG

  • Legolas

    @ Walter is there any contact i can send you in private about an idea for the team ? please i am serious about it i might not be the first to have it but it came to my mind since last season please write me if there is any contact info i can send you to share this idea thanks.

  • Mahdain

    god knows why Gazids has been getting a lot of an UNDESERVED stick lately and comparisons with Dean are way off the charts why? Dean didnt have sugar daddy teams to deal with and here there is more
    http://www.positivegunner.tumblr.com/post/26590974700/also-for-those-doubting-gazidis-and-his-abilities

  • Sammy The Snake

    Arsenal’s become too much of a corporation!

    Walter, you can’t get your beloved Arsenal back. It belongs to it’s shareholders, we as fans are insignificant stakeholders without much say.

  • colario

    @Mahdain. We have a chairman who tellls the world that we don’t want Americans at Arsenal.

  • Mike the max

    Its all very interesting looking at fans arguing for or against Usmanov. It feels like a general election when we are all a bit fed up with those in power and looking for a change. Like a general election we break into opposing camps and start dreaming about a new beginning. The problem is that after the election things rarely ever change and often get worse.

    Fortunately for us all, Arsenal is not a democratically run club and is owned by its shareholders. I say fortunately because at this point in our history the last thing we need is a split down the centre of the fan base and an on going power struggle by people could cause havoc to our stability for personal ego or money. In the current situation Usminov can make as much noise as he wants he only has the power to do that. None of his promises or criticisms mean anything as he is less than a 30% shareholder.

    As a gooner for over 40 years I have never cared who owned the club, only that my support for the team was the maximum I can give. I have supported rubbish managers teams and players as well as the brilliant ones. In the last ten years only two teams have achieved more than Arsenal we are far from rubbish and the season last proved that we have genuine ability to compete on the highest level.

    RVP leaving is a terrible shame but he is not the first and won’t be the last, if he actually made the statement that is out there my feeling is good ridence. The idea that somebody who has spent six of his eight years with us as a perpetual sick note and produced one good season then leaving because he does not like the way the club is run is ludicrous. When over the previous 5 years his own dismissal was called for the club stood by him and he only had the oppertunity because of the way the club is run. The reason that players leave clubs is usually about money or game time but the difficulty in getting them to join is about stability. The current sideshow effects our stability without having a single effect on our direction or ownership. It’s like a scorched earth policy of if I can’t have it , you can’t either.

    So the war of words will go on, Wengar will strengthen the team and next season I will support the team on the field as I always do. A new hero will show up for us as always and the team that should have been relegated last year and were in fact third will hopefully improve on that position as they did the year before. Nobody has the right to the premiership and even a squad that has spent 1/2 a billion could only win on goal difference.

  • nwite c.

    walter B. U are a deceiver,d curent situation AFC found dem selves is bcos of writers lik u.infact i did not wait 2 finish reading dis deceitful,fabricated article of urs,hw can u espect usmanov 2 giv £100mil 2 d club & now wait 4 dat money anytime d club made profit simply bcos he confesses luv 4 d club,wen there is a major share holder who is there.walter u are agent of dat greedy board & u shuld tell dem 2 make way 4 usmanov 2 hav a sit in dat board den u can espect such a loan.walter are u not stupid 4 blaming Dein 4 bringing in rvp,silent stan & now turning 2 usmanov.is rvp d only player dat discovered dat arsenal has turn 2 less ambitious club,infact every player in arsenal knows dis & awaits wen it wil b their turn each 2 leave d club d same way others did.Dein regrets bringing in selfish,silent stan & dat serves as d reason he turns 2 usmanov who is d next major shear holder or would he rather turn 2 u walter,u smigle.

  • zdzis

    I guess some kind of clarification would help some of us.
    1) Is it entirely ok with the laws to approach a non-board shareholder, who is also a shareholder in the company you represent, about a sponsorship deal? It sounds very much like foul play.
    1,5) Also, the idea of Usmanov single-handedly repaying our Emirates debt is very much against the rules. He’d have to take over Arsenal to do it in the first place – buy the debts from the debtor, etc.
    2) Is it possible for R&W to have a ready-made “open letter” within less than 24 hours of RVP’s statement? Unlikely, mostly because such things are never done on the sly. I won’t go into debating the authorship of RVP’s statement, but there’s a huge possibility the R&W statement has been prepared ages ago and Usmanov was simply waiting for an occasion to post it.
    3) Mike – Denis Hill-Wood has been dead for 30 years, so I guess he can’t use other than “dirty tricks.”
    4) It seems that the Arsenal model has recently gone awry because of the influx of oil wealth into football. The club can no longer run in a transparent way, and with few huge transactions being completed, the supporters are getting restless. Some would say this means we should drop self-sustainability and go the sugar-daddy way. It’s an interesting idea, but it also means leaving control of the club in the hands of one person. Anybody knows someone who was an Arsenal fan first and only then became a billionaire? Let’s call her/him, maybe (s)he will change our lives the way we want! Otherwise, it’s better to just shut up and think.

  • 49Unbeaten

    @Domhuaille MacMathghamhna –

    1 – AAA tastes? Who are you to judge me? I’m not even slightly anti Arsenal. Do you honestly think anyone anti Arsenal would be able to muster up the energy put forward a personal though of that length (or ranting and whining as you put it) at that time of the day if they didn’t care? And further more please do NOT write anything regarding myself and the SPUDS in the same sentence please as I find this very offensive.

    2 – At what point in my “rant” did I mention that I wanted Usmanov on the board? Learn to read “mate”. And when you can do that learn to digest and interpret the text and maybe then will you be able understand what you’ve read and not just have a stab at what you think it means.

    3 – “You are in believing that Usmanov and R&W holdings are the answer to all our needs. You bought the Usmanov letter hook,line and sinker”. Did you even read what I wrote or did you just skim it with rageful tears in your eyes? At what point did I mention this letter from Usmanov or, more to the point say Usmanov is the answer to all our needs? All I did was to list what the guy has offered (which actually is more than Kroenke)and what our board has turned down. That’s it, plain and simple! And speaking of simple at what point did YOU see that I fully endorse Mr. Usminov or said anything like I want him on the board? You seem to be just like the gutter press, scanning some words, picking out key phrases and churning out some interpretation that bares no resemblance to what was originally said.

    4 – When have I condemened the players that we actually have? I actually rate Gervinho, Per, Ox, and Santos etc. The thing is when you buy a few players you have to wait a season or more to gel putting us in a transitional state, and, BECAUSE we’re always having to replace our players we’re permanently in transition. When these new players get settled in and bare the fruits of our hard work we tend to sell them instead of reaping the rewards. FACT – so what’s your point there? Oh that’s right you just choose to attack me and my “rant” by ranting at me and making it personal.

    5 – The calibre of players that we lose cannot be compared to other clubs. This has only happened once when Ronaldo left United but apart from that when have you seen Lampard, Yaya, Kompany, Scholes, Giggs or Drogba etc wanting to leave their clubs to “win things”? You haven’t because they don’t! So again what’s your point?

    6 – “Your claims that we have an ever-revolving team that can’t win anything is ludicrous” – Really? What have we won in these last seven years when we’ve actually decided to sell our best players? Hmmmm? Oh yes – NOTHING! So this is a fact right? So actually what YOU’RE saying is ridiculous. Coming from 17th to 3rd is an achievment (a brilliant one at that) but is it winning anything? No of course not so again you have no point. In fact, who got us into that 17th spot and gave the chance of winning nothing? That’s right it was the transitional Arsenal team wasn’t it? Or would you rather believe it was the gods of AAA bad luck? Grow a pair, face facts and get real. In the last seven seasons we’ve either gone backwards or stayed the same (apart from the 07/08 season which we could’ve won) and in all of which we’ve come nowhere near challenging. Which team have you been watching? The point being that by using facts I can pretty much put whatever your rose tinted arguement is to shame. So learn to read, learn to interpret and face facts. Maybe then you and I will be on an even playing field for a debate.

  • Mahdain

    i have linked this article 2 times and im doing for a 3rd time(sorry for that Walter i really want these usmanov supporters to read it)
    http://www.anotherarsenalblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/usmanov-letter-exposes-his-shallow.html?m=1

  • Gooner S

    @Walter

    I don’t think there was collusion between Usmanov and RVPs representatives. It was certainly opportunist on his part by taking advantage of the situation.

    The point Usmanov is raising, in his open letter, about approaching a Russian telecoms company (that he is the majority shareholder in) is this; if there was a shareholder of Arsenal who had influence in a company that Arsenal had aspirations of doing business with why wouldn’t you ask for their help? He is also implying incompetence.

    You do make a good point about David Dein.

    Usmanovs letter basically said ‘blame the board not Wenger’. I would have thought that this blog would have liked at least part of that message (whatever the motives).

    What troubles me about the Usmanov letter is that he is clearly playing to the gallery by stating, what he believes, the majority of Arsenal fans want to hear. To what end? What are his motives? He wants to inject capital by instigating a non-dividend stock issue. What does this really mean? What are the pros and cons? Why aren’t Arsenal doing it if it’s such a corker of an idea?

    I remain sceptical about Usmanov.

    Like you I don’t think RVP wrote the statement he put out but they were written by his representatives. He is responsible. His statement doesn’t help and is effectively forcing a move for him. Frankly I don’t believe that finances were not discussed. RVP might not have discussed them but if his representatives didn’t they should be sacked.

    All that said what has been Arsenal’s response? Not much! Hill-Wood is in The Guardian today stating that the penalties for paying the loan on the stadium off early would not make that a cost effective option and that “it’s nice” to earn a few million quid.

    It’s all about money. There’s so much money in football now. That’s why we have two billionaires squabbling over us. That’s why players leave clubs to achieve £200k + a week.

    In the meantime we still have a good squad. We’ll still be supporting the club and watching the games next season. We need to re-sign Walcott to a new contract, replace RVP and add a few more faces to give the squad more depth and quality and then see what next season brings.

  • finsbury

    That Great Arsenal Supporter Amy Lawrence is trying to feed some mouths again. The new title of her latest hackery makes interesting reading “This is no way to runa business”. Of course, there were many such headlines in the Gruniad and other places over the years about the club once known as Glasgow Rangers. It also reminds me of that amazingly insightful article she once penned about footballers arguing in a dressing room. Amazing stuff, yet again, from a true Arsenal supporter. With friends like these.

  • Armin

    Amy Lawrence.. pity shes not Alice, Smokie would have good song for her…

  • bjtgooner

    @Mahdain

    Many thanks for the links. The links about Gazidis put some perspective into his contribution to the club.

    Re the link about the Usmanov letter – I can’t get this one to open – can you relink it?

    @Walter

    Is it possible to explain a bit more about Dein the Dad. I think he was partly involved in bringing Kroenke to the club, then he seemed to go off Kroenke and involved Usmanov. I did not follow this closely at the time and can’t remember the exact sequence of events. Was Dein off the board before he sold his shares to Usmanov? Walter anything that can be added to help my understanding on these events would be appreciated.

  • Shard

    I’m not sure we know the whole Dein and Kroenke story. Sure we had he very famous quote from PHW about not needing his sort, but so far that is the only evidence to suggest the board was opposed to him. Some members might well have been, since he was only given a seat after Dein sold his shares to Usmanov.

    Now lets see. Dein is an intelligent man. Why would he bring in Kroenke as a sugar daddy? Nothing in his record with his various sports teams, suggests he functions that way. Also, to bring Usmanov in, Dein sold his shares (for a LOT of money ). If he was so keen to have Kroenke involved, why didn’t he sell his shares to Kroenke. And before the statement by PHW, Kroenke had already bought a small percentage of shares from Fiszman.

    So although it is generally accepted, and often repeated in the media, that Dein brought in Kroenke, and after being shot down by the board, went and got Usmanov,I’m not quite sure what went on there. The only board member to have sold some shares to Kroenke at that point was Fiszman. Not Dein. Doesn’t make much sense.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Now which part of the article saying : “Arsenal is a well run and sustainable club without one pound being put in by those billionaires so leave us alone. Just Go and let Arsenal do it their own way: The Arsenal way.”

    did some of you didn’t understand?

    Both Kroenke and Usmanov can rot in hell for my part. They both haven’t paid one penny for the stadium or for whatever Arsenal has build and bought. So we don’t need them, we wouldn’t miss them.

    All we would miss is…. the infighting that we see after this article where some people obviously didn’t see that I wrote that BOTH CAN F*CK OFF!
    All we would miss the false hope and expectations one gives.

    Would we really miss them?

  • logsee

    Its all good reading very well written posts and making clever comments about the contents and then waiting to see what happens next.. Well we all know what will happen next, because we have seen it year in and year out for the past 6 years at least!
    We are the supports and in a sense the real owners of the club and when every single member of the current Board has gone, we will still be a part of the club. That said we need to do something about this situation and to force the Board into acting in a different way. We have more power than the whole Board put together if we use what we have properly! Dont play the Boards game, which is to comment on all the lies and deception that they so regularly put out! Lets hit them where they will take notice!!! Start a protest that visible before the season starts and lets stop spending money, not because we no longer support the club, but to force the Board into changing their policies, or into getting lost and allowing Red & White in to spend some money instead of taking, taking, taking!!!!!!!!

  • Mandy Dodd

    agree with the sentiments of this article, I wish they would all just up and go. However opportunistic Usmanovs letter and VPs statement be, there is clearly some truth in both. It is now starting to look that in Kronke, the board have been sold a pup in their desperation to keep Usmanov out. I also agree that Dein was not perfect, but he at least is ambitious for the club, and the AAA are right on this one, there does not SEEM to be a lot of ambition around at the moment. Just looks to me that Gazides and his team have been bought in to fatten us up for a sale somewhere down the line. Wenger is trying to do his best caught in the middle – how long can he continue his miracles…or more importantly, how long doe he want to continue? Unfortunately, I am starting to believe Kronke has completely unrealistic expectations of Wenger, and bought the club under such expectations.Would also be interested to know the true financial terms under which he has bought us, it seems to me there is more money going out of the club than just the stadium payments – where is this mysterious £160m? Amy Lawrence is right, this could impact on the team. In troubled times, the default stace of the board and manager seems to be one of caution, this is not going to help at the moment. None of this excuses the nature of VPs statement, the red herrings around it, or disguises his true aims, but one thing is clear, this crew is not one pulling together. If things go wrong next season, just hope the fans look beyond the players and manager to the the person at the top. As many blogs have recently suggested, Kronke now needs to come out in public with a bold and ambitious statement. In the press and in the transfer market. Giroud and Poldolski were a good start, unless they are just replacements. I will not be holding my breath with this owner… but await to be pleasantly surprised. If he does want to sell, nothing increases our value like success. We are Arsenal, not Aston Villa.

  • bjtgooner

    @Shard

    Thanks for that info. The present adversarial stand off between Usmanov and the board would seem to have its routes in the manner in which Usmanov was brought into the club, his expectations at that time and the present frustration of his ambition.

    Usmanov’s suggestion that the club spend heavily in order to buy outright success was not an honest one – unless he is prepared to match the approx £0.5bn spend of Man City out of his own pocket – otherwise if the club went down that route we would end up like Rangers.

    When Usmanov made that suggeston (two years ago?) he knew the club could not spend at that level but what he was doing was nothing more than starting the takeover bid. The side effect of Usmanov’s suggestion was that he fuelled the weak minds of the quick fix brigade – ie the AAA and they rapidly became his devoted followers. Fortunately that power base has remained small.

    I think we can confidently rely on AW to rebuild the team; however, with the disgruntled Usmanov (and possibly a disgruntled Dein) in the background the prospects for unity and support for the club are much diminished.

  • HR

    Rather than having the most forward-thinking club in the Premiership we’re now run by a bunch of “fifty-seven” old farts in suits who are, at best, stupendously mediocre.

    Old Etonians, Conservatives (with both a small and a capital ‘c’), and elite … they treat their places on the board like it’s their birthright: lording over the ‘oiks’ on the terraces like bankers looking down on the 99%. It’s doubtful that apart from Ken Friar any other director has even an ounce of emotional connectivity to the club.

    And on the other side there’s the Red and White carpetbagging team of Usmanov, Moshiri, and the Deins.

    It’s not much of a choice, but I’ll suffer the status quo over Usmanov any day of the week – even Saturday*.

    *Saturday … a metaphor.

  • Mahdain

    while the likes of the sun and the mirror are leading the onslaught of “Arsenal are in crisis” and “Wenger losing the plot” articles, the daily mail have come up with a gem of an article….hit the nail on the head
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2169935/Arsenal-trust-Arsene-Wenger-Robin-van-Persie–Des-Kelly.html

  • BertrumWeeks

    comon tone take me out of mod plz

  • BertrumWeeks

    look how sad my avatar is

  • bjtgooner

    @Mahdain – Good link

  • BertrumWeeks

    sorrry to post this link again but the most anti wenger blog there is printed this article this morning defending him! Needles to say it has divided opinion!(although to be fair on pedro the guys who writes 75 percent of their bloggs, is very rational and does actually support wenger in many ways, geoff on the other hand! well, doom monger says it all.

    Actually people (most) even the really upset ones still would love to see arsene through caution (50-70mil) to the wind ( arsenal), and to quote a player of ours “bring back the glory days)and smile again

    http://le-grove.co.uk/2012/07/07/that-52million-you-thought-arsenal-had-to-spend-well-think-again/#more-15394

  • BertrumWeeks

    at last!!! some real genuine support for wenger from our mainstream media!! and some sense too!! wwwwooo!!!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2169935/Arsenal-trust-Arsene-Wenger-Robin-van-Persie–Des-Kelly.html

  • bob

    Stable Gooner,
    Do your homework. Hill-Wood and the current crew are no longer the board that existed “for ages” when he ascended. Those have come and departed and Hill-Wood’s people are the board. It’s Hill-Wood vs Usmanov. And both know how to extract wealth from the earth. Does that make AFC an exception? Would either one’s ego make them more apt to have an AFC championship than a cash cow? Their words mean nothing; and their motives are unknowable from the outside. As for Silent Stan, he doesn’t seem to be a seller of his collected teams; but IF, as a commenter indicated, he is a real-estate fixture with Wal-Mart, then he has abetted the sacrifice of very many small town economies to enable his and Wal-Mart’s bottom line.

    Lanz,
    I read a press account as late as this March that named Dein the Lesser as Alex Song’s rep.

  • Mandy Dodd

    I read that Le Grove article by Pedro, and found some of it pretty interesting. If this is true, Wenger clearly is some sort of miracle worker maintaining a CL place against such odds. The board have always said Wenger had money available, my hunch, this has been the case, but maybe not enough to really improve significantly on what he has had available. In fairness the club have invested on players this summer, as well as on medical / training facilities….and wages..But , in understatement, RVPs and Usmanovs recent publications have stirred debate. It would be interesting to know what is really going on…if and why we are sitting on a large sum of money, the role of Dein and son in all this, Kronkes real interest, and the terms of him financing his purchase. Will he never invest a penny into the team? Or does he just not feel the need to as money is still sitting there? Is he just fattening up the club to sell, or do they really believe in self sustainability? This could harm the team, it seems to me, any whiff of problems and the club and maybe manager default to caution. But if finances really are so tight, we should be very thankful we have Wenger, and maybe worry about who would be put in place by this board should he leave. It is a shame , that in trying to keep Usmanov out, the board have sold out on true plural ownership, a team of custodians with fan input pulling in the same direction, quite the opposite of what we have now. But , inspite of self serving and opportunistic recent statements, worth remembering that though maybe we could do better, we are still a well run club, with a great manager, some great players remaining, 2 internationals have just joined, Jack to return, and, the signing which gives me the most hope of all, Steve Bould, a leader who embodies work ethic and team spirit, sometimes such qualities, which we have at times lacked, can defeat the odds. And we will clearly need to defeat the odds now to win trophies.

  • Raydia

    please @nwite c after abusing Walter may be you can explain the coincidence that David Dien ‘s son son has been involved in all the negetive transfers out of Arsenal . For me its no coincidence but selfishness from the Dien clan to prove that this club really needs him, so destroy things till we call in dine as saviour. Walter thanks for this eye opener

  • bob

    Stable Gooner,
    p.s. Stan is married to the daughter of Wal-Mart’s founder. As for his real estate links, if any, to Wal-Mart, others can research it. What it all means for his investment known as AFC, is pure guess-work from anyone on the outside.

  • WalterBroeckx

    If I may add that Dein the lesser has been not just involved in the transfers out of Arsenal but that most of those transfers also were surrounded by controversy.

    A player leaving the club, ok things happen, it’s football. But just do the transfer, the fans can express being happy/unhappy, carry on, live goes on…
    But when Dein the lesser is involved it seems to grow in to a bad habit when the big guns behind the shares become in the line of fire (or are firing gunshots themselves…)

    For me it is the same as with the refs:
    Dean (Dein) screws us once : could be a coincidence.
    Dean (Dein) screws us twice: I start to doubt
    Dean (Dein) screws us everytime: I start to see the picture 😉

  • asd

    So many angles to this story but some truths cannot be ignored.
    1)During the season, we are told we need to finish in the top 4 so we can qualify for the cl and attract quality players.
    We do qualify for the top 4 every year but instead of attracting players, we seem to be losing our better players every year, now spurs on the other hand seem to keep hold of their better players without the cl. Can someone explain that to me? You can’t tell me its only our players who are gready
    2)My believe to (1) is the players are actually telling the truth and they are really leaving to win trophies cos the current bod lack ambition. Well the chairman is happy we were not relegated.
    3)All those who say Usmanov has a shady past and should have nothing to do with the club are HYPOCRITES cos i did not see anyone here complain about Fizman who was a diamond trader.
    4)Tony, Walter and all who said during the season that the ‘AAA’ are part of the reasons players leave due to their moaning and booing should please apologize to the ‘AAA’ because RVP was never booed but still wants to leave and Podolski and Giroud sitll signed for the club.

  • Mandy, yes you are right, without wengers genius this current policy could not work, thats why we need to invest more, not a lot but more if poss, give Arsene a couple of glory years, so he can leave the club with his legacy and implementation of style firmly in place for generations to come

  • Ken dodd’s dad’s dog’s dead 🙁

  • gee

    ‘Lack ambition’ – i am hearing this alot – seems to be the new catchphrase meaning Arsenal are shit – like the 6,7,8 yrs without a trophy catchphrase.

    What i find is a even bigger lack of ambition is fans of a team that has had for near 2 decades, success near the top of the table now find that the stomach for a fight has now disappeared and now they want guarantees their support will be rewarded at the end with a trophy! talk about irony..

    really ambition shown there guys!

  • bob

    gee,
    I find this an apt summation of the “ambition” credo from today’s excellent posting “The Bitterest Pill” from the Cultured Left Foot blog: “Make no mistake, the excuse of a lack of ambition by Arsenal is a fig leaf to cover both naked greed and the pretence that titles are not being bought by men with more money than some national economies. They might as well put the Premiership title up for sale to the highest bidder every year. What ambition does it take to spend whatever you like, whenever you like, to sign any player you like when you have as much money as Croesus?” The posting is well worth the read: http://aculturedleftfoot.wordpress.com/

  • Mandy Dodd

    And from the same brilliant article,
    “At the end of it, there’s one man standing. Arsene Wenger. If there remains any justifiable reason to continue supporting the club that is Arsenal, that is not based on our history, then it is him. In him, loyalty, intelligence and decency remains in football. What did he do to deserve the likes of RvP?”

  • bob

    p.s. One last kudo for today’s deeply moving posting on A Cultured Left Foot (link above) which offers this ode to Arsene Wenger: “At the end of it, there’s one man standing. Arsene Wenger. If there remains any justifiable reason to continue supporting the club that is Arsenal, that is not based on our history, then it is him. In him, loyalty, intelligence and decency remains in football. What did he do to deserve the likes of RvP?”

  • bob

    Mandy,
    I’m in love! You have great taste 🙂

  • Arvind

    Super link Mahdain….thanks so much… I hope it stays on there and the Daily Mail don’t fire Des Kelly now.

  • Shard

    asd

    Regarding Spurs’ players showing ‘loyalty’, and not being greedy. It all depends on if they’ve ever been tapped up to offer them anywhere near 200k pounds? I don’t think they have. For all talk of Spurs having brilliant players, they don’t really perform as good as Arsenal players. Also, City’s constant tapping up of Arsenal players is calculated to damage Arsenal, because we are a threat to them. If Spurs were a threat, they wouldn’t have had Adebayor on loan from them. So you see, Spurs manage to keep their best players because they aren’t in demand like Arsenal players are.

  • RedGooner

    Is anyone else as dissapointed as me that Stan Kronke hasnt bothered his arse getting up and making any kind of comment reassurances or anything about the current state of AFC and how we will move forward.
    Dont get me wrong I dont want Usmanov at our club but stans a joke. leave it to wenger and Ivan to pick up the pieces while he hides shame on him.

  • asd

    Shard
    Modric to chelsea????

  • I also cant believe the club havent countered these statements from red and white, can any one please enlighten me as to why they are happy to keep silent over this?? Its literally insane.

    AS soon as the usmanov letter was read a team of the best PR writers in the world should have been assembled within hours, given unlimited sushi and told to “make the fat russian look like a fool”

    This silence is deafening ( excuse the tired cliche, but hey! this is football)

  • Shard

    Modric to Chelsea.. Yeah.. What were the media reports? Were they talking consistently about how it was a done deal and Modric would get 200k a week. Was his agent spotted at Abramovich’s dinner party? Papers make up rumours all the time. So you tell me, if I am wrong, and Modric was approached and offered 200k p/w, then why did he not go? Why did he not agitate to leave, and why did he sign a new contract at lower wages instead. Is he more loyal to SPurs than RVP to Arsenal after all? Does he think Spurs are more ambitious than Chelsea? Or maybe his agent planted the Chelsea story in the hope that someone would actually offer him more money, or that Spurs would improve his contract?

  • gee

    bob
    July 7, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    Thanks mate – that was a good read and reflects how i feel about the game at the mo.

    it looks like the romance has totally disappeared and now it strictly business.
    Maybe that’s the way to support your team -vote with your wallets and not your hearts and give your loyalty to the club that guarantees the most trophies – simples

  • Pad Gooner

    @RedGooner, No I am not surprised going by his history and this is why he is nicknamed “Silent Stan”.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Maybe Silent Stan will have read my line: The dog (not Billy or Dogface) barks, the Arsenal moves on. 😉

    did he also read the part he can also “move on” for my part 🙂

  • Mandy Dodd

    lol, likewise Bob!

  • Goona Gal

    I have never understood that Slient Stan crap or why people use this as a description for Kronke. Some one will have to help me on that one.

    All rather stupid really.

  • Goona Gal

    @ Walter, I am glad that you acknowledge your part with article about your Uzbek McDreamy!

    I don’t care if RVP wrote it or not, he approved it at the end of the day and was not misconstrued or he would of put another clarifying his first. I don’t want anyone making excuses for him as like he said in his statement, he is a grown man!

  • MJB

    This article has hit the nail on the head for me. My thoughts exactly! Whereas I don’t have the faculties to put my thoughts into words so succinctly, Walter does. Thanks mate!

  • Goona Gal

    Of course that doesn’t mean that there was no coordination and consultation of the information release designed to create maximum furore by interested parties.

    I think a lot was gambled on RVP’s perceived popularity and the fan’s willingness to side with him as the grieved party and against the club. I reckon this site will have an influx of new contributors who mainly want to discuss the current board, the Uzbek, Arsenal winning trophies through financial investment over the next few weeks. Sowing seeds of discontent to counteract the growing sense of togetherness, optimism and belief that the club was on the right track. The antithesis of Victoria Concordia Crescit, as baldrick would say – what a cunning plan!

  • Goona Gal

    Alright I have just realised that a lot of people will not get the Baldrick ref – it really isn’t important….

  • bjtgooner

    I liked Baldrick!

  • Goona Gal

    I think the Uzbek should give back to Rangers the Arsenal shares as a sign of good faith. It concerns me that respecting tradition, sentiment and the intent behind the gesture was of no consequence to R&W Holdings in their pursuit of ownership. I was unnerved by it all because it made me think about what else would they do to the club if allowed, or were in a position where they couldn’t be stopped.

    As Rangers are in turmoil, he should give them to Arsenal Fanshare in trust, at least until the Scot’s sort themselves out.

  • Goona Gal

    @ Btjgooner – good to know. I think Blackadder was funny, but I realise, like Walter, not everyone has the same sense of humour!

  • bjtgooner

    @Goona Gal – good point about the Rangers shares.

  • Goona Gal

    @ Bjtgooner – thanks.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Well, well, well… I’m also a big fan of Blackadder… and Baldrick of course 🙂

  • Goona Gal

    @ Walter have you calmed down now? You sounded quite emotional about your Mcdreamy and the Yank. I hope you have channelled it all into your next post.

  • WalterBroeckx

    It’s about Vermaelen, Goona Gal.

    Have I dreamed about him? 😉 You have to read the article to find out about my “special” relationship with him. 🙂 🙂

    Sometime tomorrow it will come on line… Unless Tony doesn’t want to publish those personal facts… 😉

    Come to think of it… even Tony could say he has some kind of relationship with Vermaelen…. But you will not here any details from me… LOL

  • Pat

    Thanks Walter, thanks everybody else – especially for the links to the Cultured Left Foot and Daily Mail articles. Makes me feel a bit better to see some sense written elsewhere as well as on Untold.

  • Stevie E

    LRV
    That’s a great link, thanks for that. It’s something all should read. Brilliant

  • WalterBroeckx

    http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/331549/I-trust-Arsene-Wenger-s-wisdom-over-self-interest-of-Robin-van-Persie/

    Where have all those people been hiding???? Another good article about the whole situation in the media…

    I think he has been reading Untold and lots of Tony his articles on Rangers and Portsmouth..

  • Mandy Dodd

    Strange, amongst some of the usual shite, I have read more sense written about Wenger and Arsenal in the last few days than for several years – and in some unlikely sources. Are a few more starting to realise?

  • Mahdain

    i agree there have been great articles on the media regarding Arsenal and in unlike sources.. Here is another one
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/article?id=1135931/

  • Mandy Dodd

    Yes, Interested to note in the mirror article that the AST will be publishing their survey results – Wenger now has an 80% approval rating, double from last year.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/robin-van-persie-transfer-arsenal-1136095

    As recent atricles are picking up on, if there is a problem at Arsenal, it certainly is not Wenger

  • finsbury

    More in depth analysis of AFC from the Manchester Grunt today:

    The esteemed journalist, and probable Glasgow Rangers fan(just a random guess, indulge me please) Paul Wilson writes:

    “Arsenal need to spend some farking moolah”

  • Goona Gal

    My final suggestion would be that we get the wonga and sponsorship then we can wear poppies on our shirts all year long. Simples!

  • Goona Gal

    So the AST fall on the right side for a change. First of all who cares? Second of all I applaud their opportunism, now that is how you do PR! Jabba could learn summit from those folk, as they read the mood well. I expect normal business to resume shortly though. Maybe they were annoyed that RVP encroached on to their territory of telling the manager and club what they should be doing.

  • bjtgooner

    @Goona Gal – agreed about the AST. Unfortunately AST have shown that they cannot be trusted to fully back the club and as you rightly point out they will soon resume their normal crap. They seemed to throw their weight behind Jabba at their recent meeting with Gazidis – maybe this time the ghastly letter from Jabba was too much even for them.

  • Goona Gal

    @ Btjgooner – exactly! So a few hundred responded to their poll and it’s in a National newspaper. Who are those people representative of? Considering the number of Arsenal fans around the world, that is a very small ‘value insignificant’ number of people to hold up as the voice of the masses. That’s all I am saying really.

  • Alan

    No doubt dein is is playing games, now behind the scenes (not his choice). But I have no doubt that when he wakes up every morning goes to sleep every night, and every hour in between, there is only one thing he craves…and that is success for arsenal. Some may agree or disagree with strategic preferences he may have had, and who he has backed as investors. But give me Dein any day over hill wood, gazidis and kroenke, not to mention the other inheriting old fools on our board. We are all fans for life, more loyal than any player will be, but so is dein. He hasn’t left the cause he is chasing to be CEO of City, Liverpool or any other club. Like us he s holding out for that chance to bring us , our club and his club, the success we crave and which we will not get with the current management/ownership structure . Don’t hold it against him that he doesn’t sit on his backside waiting for that opportunity. That’s not his style, and that’s precisely why we need him back. PS I am not his PR, just a regular fan.

  • WalterBroeckx

    So by letting us fail Dein wants to bring us success??????
    That’s like RVP saying he wants to bring success back to Arsenal, so he will leave us to do this????

    I think from the moment the Chelsea way came along the Dein way was dead.

    And remember : it is a thin line between love and hate. This could be the same for Dein you know….

  • Goona Gal

    @ Walter – very good points.

  • Alan

    Just go look at stuff (ie postings and comments) on kroenke from genuine fans of other “sports franchises” that he has acquired(eg denver post) There is a clear and recurring theme of lies, exploitation and under investment. To kroenke we are no more than one(of many) sports franchises. Part of a portfolio of businesses that generate cash and profits for him and his family, like many properties he acquired with the benefits of his wife’s (Walmart heiress) billions . There is an old established formula, also used by likes of glazers, of using debt to acquire the club, then use cash flow(our cash) to pay it off. When it comes to prioritising future investment in players we will rank behind the sports , clubs and cities that, if there are any affections for, the kroenke s are physically and emotionally closer to . When wenger goes, and at some point he will, when we don’t get into CL, (that s getting closer) the proverbial sh!t will hit the fan. I never started out as a fan of the rich benefactor model, but I don’t hold out too much hope for FFP ( our only remaining hope) . I certainly don t want us to turn into a soulless home for the likes of blatant mercenaries like Tevez, but would love to see what wenger could do if he was able to attract quality professionals like Aguerre, ya ya toure, leighton Baines, and keep solid pros like RVP, vermaelen and home grown kids like Cole and (don’t take it for granted) Wilshire . With wenger, and maybe next , guardiola, we could combine our values, with some money, to be an English version of Barcelona, blending home generated youth with experienced pros. It’s not a massive ask, but with kroenke as majority owner, I’m not sure how we get there from here.

  • Goona Gal

    It’s interesting to find that the cult of Dein lives on.
    It sort of reminds me of the ‘King Kenny’ one at Liverpool, where they demanded his return for about 20 years….and well we know how that worked out.

  • Goona Gal

    @ Adam – a lot of words there, not many sensible points. The concept of self sustainability through our current business model has really passed you by also.

  • Goona Gal

    @ Adam, why have you singled out Tevez as a mercenary? Do you think YaYa etc are at Man C because they were boyhood fans or have Citeh DNA?

  • Goona Gal

    Can I just clarify that I am addressing my points to ALAN, not Adam!!!!!

  • bob

    Speaking of “who is who and what is what”: Paul Wilson of the Manchester Guardian’s football department has launched his expectable broadside against AFC in the wake of recent events. His poisoned keystrokes stand starkly against the very strong pro-AFC/AW articles that commenters here have cited in the last two daze and mark him as, so far, the leading media enemy of self-sustainability. His arguments qualify as the AA prevailing talking points; now honed to a fine point – better than Usmanov or RvP and handlers could do. His tone so wallows and delights in Arsenal’s pain that imo he’s become Exhibit A in Arsenal-hating. And that’s saying something given his stable-mates Hytner and Williams. The so-called fair broker, Amy Lawrence, knows where her bread is buttered and has revealed her opportunism (or perhaps realism, if she’s to keep up with boyz of that ilk) over the weekend. But Wilson takes the lead: this jorno is self-toxifying. For readers who wish to do blog-battle with what AFC is once again up against, do consider weighing in on the battle royale by going online in the Comments here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/jul/07/arsenal-robin-van-persie

  • Alan

    Hi goons gal
    Not suggesting money didn’t play a part in likes of ya ya joining city, nor that he was a boyhood city fan. However he is a solid professional , who plays to the best of his ability week in, week out,and one we probably could have attracted to arsenal a few years back with a decent salary.. We will never compete for players who will only go for £200k a week wages from likes of city, PSG and Chelsea, but we lost Cole over a £5k a week dispute. I am a big fan of the self sustainable model, if our cash (on tickets, shirts and over priced food,), goes towards buying and keeping players, not to hill woods retirement pot, Danny fizsmans kids and kroenke enterprise’s bottom line. The “self” in “self sustainability”,should be our club, not American profiteers or the fragmented owners who inherited their shares in the club. The real problem we face now is that wenger is facing competition from the big clubs for young rising stars, which he used to have a clear run on. And their agents or dads use wengers interest to increase their price and package..FFP is forcing that, and it represents a serious threat to the viability of the self sustainable model. How many years before jack Wilshire ends up making a similar decision to RVP, if our owner and board don’t decide to cash in even earlier? Wenger is a near perfect manager for us, but even more perfect for Kroenke, because he will continue to attract and develop players like alexOC, Song, vermaelen ,who can then be sold for potentially bigger sums, but we re close to running out of steam on this strategy. I d rather have a big fat owner putting money into our club, than one , or many , taking money out of it. ..”self sustainability” would be somewhere in between, ideally with us the fans, owning the club, appointing someone (dein or otherwise) to manage it and be accountable to us on how self sustainability is managed and where our surplus profits are allocated. (preferably to assets on the pitch) . Lots of words. Which bits don’t make sense?

  • Goona Gal

    @ Alan, Yes hi

    Again you have used a lot of words to not say very much new. I will attempt to respond to your post, but will have to break it up as I have a few distractions at the mo.

    So firstly you choose to ignore my question regarding why you singled out Tevez as a mercenary, but YaYa, Aguero etc were not at Citeh mainly for the pay too. I don’t disagree with you that YaYa is a top player, but it sounds like you want Arsenal to be paying players £250,000 a week and better still taking on Abu Dhabi in a bidding war. Which really is akin to taking on a blank cheque.

  • Alan

    Not my intention to allow a wider debate about who owns and manages us to revert to detailed discussions on individual players. I don’t expect a self sustaining model to allow us to pay 250k for likes of tevez ot toure. However a self sustaining model where our surplus cash is sensibly reinvested to buy quality players early (as we might have done with toure a few years ago) is a reasonable target. I would hope that any manager employed by us, for sure wenger, would be able to differentiate between quality professionals and blatant mercenaries. The wider issue is there are 3 ownership types 1 . Owners who put money in(eg abramovic)..2. Owners who take money out eg kroenke, glazers. 3. Owners who run the club with ambition but with no profit motive.(ie the fans), the third is my preferred option, but I prefer 1 to 2 . We have model 2 right now. I remain unconvinced by Usmanov ,and would prefer a small consortium of wealthy gooners who genuinely put the club’s interests first..but failing that, maybe prefer the devil I don’t know (Usmanov) to the devil I do (kroenke) . We are at serious risk of not only missing out on champions league soon, but also on the spin off commercial contracts at key point of renewal. Ironically, if FFP does actualise, without these we won’t even be able to spend our way out of mid table mediocrity .

  • Goona Gal

    I tried to work out what you meant when you said pay the players a decent wage, but not necessarily £200,000 per week. What would you consider to be ‘decent’? To try and refer to the cashley Cole situation is a bit wrong really. We offered him £5,000 less than what he got at Chelsea. This was not an Ivan Gazidis negotiation I would like to add too. If it was not for the self sustainable idea facilitated by the Emirates move, we would not even be able to be competitive like we are, arguably we would be even more indebted to Arsene Wenger than we are now. As I think we would struggle to attract rising stars, let alone players at the top of their game.

  • Goona Gal

    Next point. You make comment about the Late Danny Fizman, Peter Hill Wood & Kroenke in a disrespectful manner, for some reason, whilst absolving Dein from the mix. Of all the people looking to make money out of money, I would of thought his name should of rolled off the tongue! in my honest opinion it’s shameful really as Fizman & PHW have been good servants to the club.

  • Goona Gal

    Moving on to your unclear next point. I cannot work out whether you are saying that you want the Chelsea/Citeh model, the open market share model or the current model? I have to ask, do you under stand what is a franchise? Can you explain what you are inferring in the context of Arsenal. Sorry to ask you so many questions, its just that your comments don’t really add up so therefore I need to ask questions so I can respond properly. It sounds like you hate all models of ownership really, but I may of misunderstood you.

  • Goona Gal

    I don’t think Arsenal are in a worse off position than before, regarding attracting young stars. I would of thought that the Alex OC situation was evidence indicating that all is well. With the abolished 90 minute rule, it’s my belief that we will be able to attract more from the UK, especially with the contacts that Terry Burton has built up. It just seems you have chosen to take the most negative view of a situation when there is no need. It’s a lie to state that Arsene Wenger was able to sign every player he wanted previously. With regards to agents using Arsenal interest to shop around for a better deal? That’s life or do you have an idea how Dein would stop that from happening?

    At some point I will expand on what I have observed in terms of organisational learning at Arsenal, but for now I will just focus on your post directed at me.

  • Goona Gal

    I am not even sure what to say, I might even come off as rude in response to your comment that you think that the self sustainable model is put under threat by FFP!

    In addition to this you think the very essence of commerce, trade, ‘buying low, selling high’ etc has run it’s course? I would disagree whole heartedly. Unless I have misunderstood you and you are saying that because you think the scouting network, Arsenal training staff and coaches are so poor, we will not be able to attract young talented players without Wenger

  • Mandy Dodd

    Do we have evidence kronke is actually taking money out? I thought we were promised there would not be a LBO a la glaziers, hicks, Gillett. We were told emphatically he does not take money out of clubs, is he lying? Have his circumstances changed, or is he just sticking to Ffp, or maybe even the managers wish lists on transfers?. If he has leveraged on the club, or is taking out big dividends, those who sold to kronke and continue to work with him owe us a pretty major explanation. But, as much as I am uneasy on kronke, I see no evidence he is doing any of this? Dein…an interesting topic, he was not perfect but was clearly a fan, and very close to wenger, I think many see we have not won anything since he left and put two and two together.

  • Stroller

    I notice that David Dein has been speaking on Sky Sports news. From the clip that I’ve seen and other reports the gist of his contribution was to say that the RVP situation should be resolved one way or the other as quickly as possible. Well we would all say amen to that. The implication that RVP could still end up staying is probably not so widely shared.

    But it was what he didn’t say that’s more revealing. Nothing about the statements from RVP and Red & White. Nothing about the nature of the barbs being thrown round. His silence on this is telling isn’t it? Although it would have been a pleasant surprise to hear him give some backing to the club and Wenger I guess that is expecting too much.

    By apparently avoiding the real issue (which is not how quickly RVP is sorted out) he tells me that he remains with the Usmanov sentiment, but is also playing a political game of appantly sitting on the fence for public consumption.

  • Wooby

    Walter, I am fully with you in linking everything that has transpired in the last 5 or 6 years to David Dein.

    It is also reason to give me hope for the future. I have read some of the links others have kindly provided and I am in full agreement that Usmanov is desperate. If (when?) RVP leaves, who among the players on the current squad would have been brought on board by David Dein? Song? The Dein influence on the club wanes and RVP’s refusal to sign a contract extension represents the last piece of leverage for Usmanov to get Kroenke to sell his shares and for Dein to get Arsenal to the sugar-daddy model of running the club.

    Thankfully we still have Wenger. I am very keen to see how the changes in the coaching staff pans out and what these new voices bring, in addition to having Poldi/Giroud and any other new players Wenger brings in.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Stroller, maybe waiting for the right moment to step up again? But for whom will he be stepping…?

    And about persons making money from the club on wikepedia (I know but we take it for what it’s worth) when he bought his shares in 1983 for £292.000. In 2007 he sold his shares for £75.000.000 to R&W Holding.

    So from 292.000 to 75.000.000 not bad business I would say. And that is only for the last part of shares that he owned that the figure is known. Because he had owned a lot more.

    So if we talk about persons who have earned a lot of money on Arsenal we must include Dein.

  • bjtgooner

    @Stroller

    Dein didn’t need to get involved, but could not resist the opportunity. RVP wants to go quickly & it looks like Dein the Dad & Usmanov would quite like that – it will give them more ammunition with which to attack AW and the board. I need to be convinced that the Deins/Usmanov grouping has the club’s best interest at heart.

  • Stroller

    @Walter, bjtgooner
    Remember all those years back when that old buffoon Ken Bates was saying that Dein wasn’t to be trusted? But if now he is actually poisoning the club he professes to love then history should judge him very severely indeed.

    In respect of the role he may envisage for himself in an Unsmanov owned club it could be either Chairman or CEO, or perhaps even both!

  • Goona Gal

    Right I am back, but struggling for time at the minute. What I also wanted to address was your desire for a big fat owner who puts money into the club…..hmmm, despite the club’s long history of charitable works, Arsenal FC is not a charity. A businessman would not just simply give aid to the club for no reason. He or she would want something in return in the long term. A profitable return on investment would be the most obvious reason, I would think and not to go into a business 101 class, but the businessman would surely want more control and to dictate who should be employed and in the recent scenario at QPR, even decide who should play
    for the team! It is after all, their money, their finances at risk. The
    idea that even if it was owned by fans and the club was profitable, that they wouldn’t want a return on investment is also debatable, even the form of subsidiaries like cheap or free tickets, merchandise etc. All of which eats into the bottom line.

    I have a serious question to ask about why you think a tough demanding role which has evolved, would be suitable for Dein? He is almost 70yrs and correct me if I am wrong, been out of full time work for years! The FA even passed over him, but yet you think he is the most appropriate person to lead Arsenal forward. Yes I said forward, think outside of the box, deal with the rigors of the role, network, innovative and make smart decisions that will benefit the club in the short and long term.

  • Goona Gal

    Lastly in your post directed at me you make an assumption that the fans know best and could reach an agreement. Which frankly, with some Arsenal fans (possibly you being one), the only thing I would be willing to agree on is the fact that we disagree!

  • Goona Gal

    I note that you bring up the purchase of YaYa again, Alan. Since you are an interested fan, I challenge you to find Arsene Wenger’s interview where he discusses what happened when we were trying to buy him. As might even find photos of YaYa in Arsenal pre season gear too if you are really interested. Besides is it not possible to be a mercenary and a professional? What is your point?

    I would also challenge you to provide evidence that Kroenke has taken out of the club thus far. It’s one thing to ramble, exaggerate and tell half truths in an attempt to win an argument, but you are stepping in to new territory.

    I have to ask you Alan, how long have you been a supporter? I don’t believe that you are R&W PR that’s for sure as this would be an incredibly embarrassing defense of them.

  • Goona Gal

    @ Stroller, I do recall Bates saying something along those lines! I remember thinking that Bates thought Dein was more slippery than himself, which was really saying something.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Do not want to intrude too much on this argument, but I have seen quite a few tweets and blogs suggesting stan is taking money out / has securitised his loan onto the club…whatever that means, or has been involved in leverage type activity. I have yet to find a shred of evidence he has done any such thing, the board stated categorically they would not have entertained a LBO, hopefully this would not be tolerated at a later stage. I can find no evidence stan has ever taken anything out of any of his clubs. Some may not like the self sufficiency model, others may want to buy the club. We have players openly claiming to be unhappy with our direction, but as regards stan, slience does not mean he has to be guilty of lying over his stated intentions. Of course , if he is , he should be exposed, but as you say, let’s see the evidence. There are some clever analysts out there, if stan really is up to any such things, hopefully the likes of Swiss ramble will be onto him very quickly.

  • Stroller

    I don’t think it would be at all easy for Stan to take money out of the club even if he wanted to. Just because he is the majority shareholder doesn’t give him any easy mechanism to simply grab money for himself. Others may be more expert on such matters as corporate governance and accounting but all options that I can think of require some form of disclosure which would have to be revealed in the club’s Annual Report.

  • bjtgooner

    @Mandy & Stroller

    I have noted posts/blogs assuming Stan has or was continuing to take money out of the club – but absolutely no back up evidence. Those posts just looked as though some of the AAA were trying to blacken him – the usual approach from them.

    As far as I am concerned until there is evidence to the contrary Stan is not guilty. One point I have noticed about the human character – those who are basically corrupt find it very difficult to understand that everyone else is not equally corrupt.

  • Alan

    Usmanov is not my preferred option, but preferable to what we have now. What s wrong with barcelona”s fan ownership model, where the fans own the club and where there is a governance structure based around periodic elections to select a president and managing board? When fans buy the shirt, or season tickets and a beer and burger, any profits from these go towards developing young players, but also rewarding and keeping likes of Messi and Puyol, and also bringing in Villa, Abidal. If RVP is worth £150k a week, and if it needed that to keep fabregas, then better our money goes to them than to hill wood,fizsman ,the keswicks and bracewell smiths, or now kroenke enterprises.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Agree bjt, if he is guilty of such things, he Will be exposed, unless he was to take us completely private, then suspicions could be aroused. As I say, if guilty, I hope he is exposed.
    He has stated he did not buy us with a LBO, he does not take dividends or money out of the club, and he believes ultimately we are under marketed. Ok, it seems he will not invest in the playing side, that is upsetting many. Some are saying the money wenger has accumulated on transfers is not all being made available. Some say phw is being paid to cover it all up for stan, when he is not being a senile bumbling fool that is. None of it really adds up. Beware or those who chose to thrive on perceived chaos…..for their own aims……that sounded almost biblical! The fact is , we are doing ok, a player is getting old and a little greedy , panicking about trophies, and others and their agents are being a bit opportunistic on this.

  • Gooner Al

    Hi goona gal
    There appears to be some confusion with two Alan s on this site, so I have renamed myself Gooner Al . In response to a couple of your questions , I have supported arsenal since 1967. I am not a Usmanov fan, and certainly not his PR. I do hold the view that with an owner putting money in, supported by a “deal doer ” CEO of dein s quality, in turn supporting a manager of wenger’s quality, our self sustaining model could attract and (more importantly) keep enough quality players (not blatant mercenaries) to compete for silverware . Football wise, I believe that most title winners or CL winners play with a strong spine , and character,thru the centre, something we have not had for better part of 6-7 years. And in nearly every position you need a player who is one of the top 2 to 3 in their position in the premier league. Only RVP, vermaelen, Wilshire and sagna , in my view,meet that criteria, and three of them suffered too many injuries with inadequate cover last season. Had RVP had his usual injury ridden season, we would have been mid table, or worse.