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Poor Santi Cazorla, its not his fault. £52.5m is nowhere near enough.

By Tony Attwood

Today is the first anniversary of the signing of Santi Cazorla.  In fact 7 August is quite a day for anniversaries.

But more on that in a moment.  What I want to say first is, “Santi Cazorla – I’m sorry.  It’s not your fault.”

No one quite knows what Santi Cazorla cost Arsenal, but this statement from the Metro made a couple of days before the deal went through gives a clue…

Pellegrini says he has no intention of selling the player, and especially not for the €20 million being quoted across Europe.

‘To sell Cazorla for €20 million would be to give him away. I don’t think the club intends to do that,’ Pellegrini told the Spanish press.

‘I’ve talked a lot with Abdullah Ghubn and with the Sheikh and this would not be representative of their mentality. It would send out the wrong signal ahead of our Champions League campaign. If significant offers come in for players they are worthy of consideration, but I don’t think Santi will be leaving for €20 million.’

And certainly watching him last season he was (at least by this summer’s prices) worth far far more than that.

But he is stuck with that sort of price tag.   The Mail Online this week said it “believes the Spanish capital’s second club will offer Arsene Wenger £17.5m for the 28-year-old Spanish international. The Real Oviedo youth graduate joined Arsenal from La Liga side Malaga 12 months ago and has had a storming first season in the Premier League, with 12 goals and 11 assists from 37 starts.”

That is indeed a clue.

The Transfer League web site quotes a figure of £20m for last season’s transfer, the most expensive of the four players who cost Arsenal £52.5 million.

But of course £52.5 million doesn’t count much these days, because that’s spread over four players.  So if Santi was one of four well, he can’t be very good can he?

So on 7 August 2012, it was officially announced that Cazorla had signed a long-term deal with Arsenal, and was the third of these transfers after Podolski and Giroud.  The last one was Monreal.

And with that little list you see the problem is simply that Cazorla didn’t cost enough to be rated as any good.  To be any good you have to cost £40m plus alone.  Cazorla cost only half that and so is only half good.

The fact is that Arsenal got Santi Cazorla on the cheap simply because his club Malaga was in financial melt down, after the club was bought by the one Sheikh who didn’t own a dozen oil wells, and his fate as never been given a Marquee err, well, Mark, was sealed.

But if you want a Marquee Player (however you define it) I would pick Santi Cazorla.  OK the verdict might be “Good but not expensive enough” for those who value money above talent, but for me, compared with other players going at the £40m plus price, that’s where I would put him.

And I would put him there not just because he was superb last season, but because he was superb in his first season.  Just think what the second season will bring, now he’s settled in.

Incidentally those four transfers of one year ago also suggest that the notion that Mr Wenger is as a tight fisted turnip means there is something wrong with the crop rotation.  It’s not bad going for one season.

Anyway, happy one year anniversary Santi Cazorla.   It’s not your fault you were sold on the cheap by a club that had hit the rails.  It is not your fault that Athletico Madrid made a pathetic offer for you.  It’s not your fault that the new vision is that anything under £40m is “just not good enough”.  Just remember the “not for sale at any price” tag that Arsenal put on you.

So, its an anniversary.

The full list of today’s is below- and a shortened list is provided most days on this site’s home page, and the full detailed list for the day on the Arsenal History Society site home page.   The whole rolling list of anniversaries – which has four or five events added every day is also available on that site.

  • 7 August 1910: Alf Common signed
  • 7 August 1973: Freddie Cox died
  • 7 August 1982: Tony Adams first appearance in friendly away to Colchester
  • 7 August 1991: Arsenal beat Watford in friendly; Ray Parlour’s first game
  • 7 August 1993: Eddie McGoldrick first game
  • 7 August 1997: Christopher Wreh joins
  • 7 August 2000: Guy Demel joins from Nîmes
  • 7 August 2002: Gilberto Silva joins from Atlético Mineiro
  • 7 August 2005 : Arsenal lose to Chelsea in Community Shield
  • 7 August 2009: Håvard Nordtveit loaned to Nuremberg for season
  • 7 August 2012: Santi Cazorla joins Arsenal from Málaga

 

65 comments to Poor Santi Cazorla, its not his fault. £52.5m is nowhere near enough.

  • Epicurean

    Poor Santi 🙁 Lets take him to Breandan Rodgers to get a valution? 2 Cavanis at least? ;D

  • Brickfields Gunners

    Marquee Mark does have a rap feel to it !

  • Liam

    He’s worth at least 30 million pounds at the very least wonderful player joy to war h fits very easily into the arsenal style hope he and jack can really combine this season

  • GoonerDog

    Just checking through – yep still the same pompous drivel, although no AAA comment. You must be slipping – yawn.

  • Ronan

    This is the strangest, most pointless article I have read in a long time.

    Why should there be any sympathy for how much a player was bought for? Do people think of Henry by how much he cost?

    If you want your club to buy average players at over-inflated prices support Liverpool.
    35mil for Carol, ha. 20mil for Downing, ha.

  • Sid

    I thought he cost us £12.5m? And we only got him because of the state Malaga were in! We can’t hope for that with every signing. Ah signings, I remember those things. We used to sign players. Those were the days! 🙂

  • Winner Matahula

    Santiago Gonzalez Carzola!!! The most underrated talent in world football. Sooner, your might will be revealed and the whole football world will bow at your feet in reverence and appreciation of your patience and courage. Ooohhh my Carzola!!!!!!!

  • insideright

    The frustrating thing with Santi is that he was down to join us one year earlier than he did (as a direct and immediate replacement for Fabregas) but went to Malaga on the promise of wages that, in the end, were not paid. Malaga players, I believe, threatened to strike as a result.
    The fact that Monreal came from the same source is no coincidence – or indeed that Arteta came from ‘virtually bankrupt’ Everton as the last minute solution to the delay in Corzolas arrival.
    In an artificially inflated market these are the deals that a sensible club undertakes. Spending someone elses money is one thing – spending your own quite another.

  • Georgaki-pyrovolitis

    GoonerDog at 9:37 am

    Oh, dear…not to your liking? A bowl of Pedigree Chum is waiting for you on Le Groan….

  • bc

    Wenger still made a profit last summer as he sold/released 17 players. This summer even if we spend £70m he will still turn a profit, as 24 players have already left with bendtner and park set to join them. In addition to that he has already loaned out 4 players with yennaris and miquel set to join them and probably sime others.

  • Prince from Nigeria

    Wenger please keep intact your jewery (Santi Gazorla). Please boss never reveal signings until it comes through, this is to avoid our rivals who can’t spot a good player to sign rather than hijacking the alreading spotted ones by Wenger. Your rivals can’t price, access quality and overall they are ready to spoil market with the oil money they did not sweat for.

  • Brickfields Gunners

    Since its a slow day ,some advice on money matters .

    Money – Your last power in old age! – How to stay ‘safe’ at old age.

    1. Do not retire.

    If you’re over-aged, retire and get all the benefits but find another income-generating job or open a business that will keep you active physically and mentally.

    Travel and bond with true friends, play a sport, learn a new hobby and volunteer in your community or parish. Don’t loaf around.

    Your spouse will hate you because you’ve become a sloppy, listless bum with nothing good to say about the household and things that, you never bothered about before. Solve crossword puzzles, play Scrabble, write your memoirs, and above all, read this will keep you alert and keep Alzheimer’s at bay.

    2. Live in your own place to enjoy independence, privacy and a solo life.

    If you move in with your children, your rank or degree of importance is reduced to that of a bed spacer who has no place of honour or, worse, like crumbling furniture merely displayed with no added value. Might you kowtow to conform to their own rules that are not kind, considerate or mindful of you?

    If you witness your children engaged in a war of will and wits with your grandchildren, whom will you side with? Will they even appreciate your arbitration?

    Remind your children that silence are not a sign of weakness; you are merely processing data that is taking longer to complete.

    3. Hold on to your nest egg, bank deposits and assets.

    If you want to help your children, do give, but not to the extent that you wipe out your life’s earnings, singing heroically not a shirt on my back nor a penny to my name.
    Staying solvent and in the black is a good hedge against all kinds of tempests.

    You will sleep better, you will not be afraid to express your opinion and you will be confident about yourself.

    4. Don’t believe your children’s promise to care for you when you grow old … priorities change.

    Many children are not guilt-ridden or filled with a sense of moral obligation when the wife and offspring take top billing in their lives.

    There are still children who would consider it a privilege to show compassion, genuine love and deep concern for their parents but be warned that not all children think alike.

    5. Expand your circle of friends to include young ones who will definitely outlive your old BFFs.

    Keep up with new inventions, trends, music and lifestyle including all the scams and schemes you should guard against.
    Remember that when you mix with the young, you also open a fresh avenue to channel your thoughts, experiences and values through so that the lessons you learned are not lost, forgotten or buried with you.

    6. Be well groomed and smelling fresh of spring water all the time.

    There’s nothing more depressing than seeing people exhale when you walk by because you reek of baul (camphor chest) or lupa (dirt).

    Old age or bust, don’t look and smell like a corpse when you’re not one yet.

    7. Do not meddle in the life of your children.

    If they ask for your counsel, give it, but be ready to accept that they may not take it. Their situations in life cannot be compared to the situations that you experienced in your life. The playing field has changed and they need to develop their own set of survival skills.

    If you raised them to be street smart, they can handle themselves in tough situations and be able to read people.

    Champion and encourage their dreams and desires but on their own terms.

    8. Do not use old age as your shield and justification for turning grumpy.

    There’s nothing more annoying than an arrogant, old fool. Welcome each day as another chance to be kind and forgiving, to yourself and to others.

    9. Listen to what others may say.

    Do not throw your weight around just because you are a septuagenarian or a nonagenarian. You are not a depository of knowledge.

    Even if the roles have been reversed, make growing old a fun-filled, pleasant experience for you and your brood.

    10. Pray always and focus on your eternal life.

    You will definitely leave everything behind, a final journey detached from burden and care. Be more accepting that, sooner, not later, you will croak.

    Prepare your swan song with a humble and contrite heart. If you believe in a merciful and loving God, there is no need to strut like a star. Nobody is.

    Remember … Money – Your last power at old age !!

  • Bootoomee

    Georgaki-pyrovolitis,

    Don’t call them out. They are going to accuse you of being sanctomonious 🙂

    When they can’t refute the contents of the article, they write whiny tripe and call the authors names!

  • Rupert Cook

    What a bizarre post. Who the hell is complaining that Cazorla cost less than 40 million? No Arsenal fan I know has ever moaned about him being not as expensive as a marquee player because they all believe he’s as good as many who cost thrice what he did. It was a great piece of business and if we can find similar talent for the same price I’d think we’d all be content.

    Tony, you must be a bit bored out there in the sticks. Living in London there’s always plenty to do.

  • colario

    @ Bootoomee. It is difficult for me to believe you are the Pope, now that I know you have a wife and two children. Blessings upon you all.

  • elkieno

    Sud: Hahaha oh dude, where were you last summer window and the January window after that? whst about the numbers in the article of £52m? Did you even read the article or do you not pay attention to our season both on and off?
    I think that you read what others say, jump on their bandwagon and release hell, to fit a theory?

  • wengerout

    Wenger out stingy old goat !

  • John G

    Agree with Rupert Cook, this post is a very strange argument to make – don’t know anyone who has put forward the view that Santi Cazorla can’t be good because he wasn’t expensive enough. There are plenty of legitimate arguments to be had about the direction Arsenal are heading, so it seems a bit desperate to make up a point of view that doesn’t exist just so you can disagree with it.

    The key fact is that all Arsenal supporters want to see a side full of as many top quality players as possible – most of the time quality costs money, but if we can get quality on the cheap I’m all for that too. The trouble is that too often in recent years the club have looked at a player’s price tag instead of their ability, which has led to our squad being full of an excess amount of players who, while cheap, are not of the quality required to bring us sporting success.

  • Isaac Jah Seedee

    I love Santi Carzola and i wish him happy august 7 anniversary celebration with th Gunners. I am a full flesh Arsenal Fan in Liberia base in Monrovia, the nation capital.

    I want Arsene Winger, the coach to buy Suarez, Fellini and and the defensive mid fielder from the German Leaque if the Gunners are to lift the Premier Leaque Title and do something in the Champion Leaque. thank you for the opportunity.

    Isaac Jah seedee
    Monrovia, Liberia
    Telephone # +231-0886-433-672/+231-0777-745-301
    Email- isaacseedee2013@yahoo.com

  • lincoln

    yeah..en here in kenya 7th august is a cursed day..today tour main airport on fire

  • Rufusstan

    Rupert — I took a near opposite read from the article to you, and one that was pretty much exactly your point.

    We all know what we have got in Santi, how lucky we were to get him at all, and the advantage we took in Malaga’s situation to get him that cheaply.

    The point is that there is a habit amongst some fans (and particularly the media) to directly link a player’s quality to his price. World class players cost £40 mil, so if you didn’t cost £40 mil; you cannot be world class.

    It is a ridiculous assertion, but so many people seem to have been convinced that it must be true. When gushing about Cazorla’s capabilities to fans of other clubs, the comebacks are of one of two types: either the financial ones ‘you got him cheap off of Malaga, £15 mil or so, so he is a league down from the truly good players’.

    Alternatively, they point out that he can barely get into his national team, so obviously isn’t that great.

    Both make me want to cry for the future of the human race, but illustrate how people are conditioned these days to assess players. Without seeing the guy every week, they have no evidence to go against their ideas.

    Obviously the reverse is not true either, there is a correlation between price and quality at better players attract more interest, but it isn’t a rule.

    Its the same situation where if you are told a whole first 11 cost less than Calvani, they clearly cannot be any good. Yet the Invincibles set us back around £44 million.(A quarter of that was for Henry, who at £11 mil was clearly pretty second rate 🙂 )

  • Dec

    Still laughing at pedigree chum for Goonerdog 🙂
    Woof woof.

  • A. Stewart

    “The fact is that Arsenal got Santi Cazorla on the cheap simply because his club Malaga was in financial melt down, after the club was bought by the one Sheikh who didn’t own a dozen oil wells, and his fate as never been given a Marquee err, well, Mark, was sealed.

    But if you want a Marquee Player (however you define it) I would pick Santi Cazorla. OK the verdict might be “Good but not expensive enough” for those who value money above talent, but for me, compared with other players going at the £40m plus price, that’s where I would put him.

    I’m not quite sure what the point of this exercize is…No-one is complaining that Santi Cazorla was got on the cheap, and pretty much everyone will agree that his value was and is worth far higher than his price tag to us. As you detail in your post, we got a much higher valued player at a low price due to the extenuating circumstances at Malaga at the time that allowed a rare opportunity to get a highly valued player at far below his market value, it was good business and bravo to the club and manager for getting it done.

    Despite what you may think, most peope who think we need reinforcements are concerned more with established quality as opposed to price, however, most accept the reality that established quality (in any sector even beyond sports) tends to come at elevated prices, it’s rare that top quality can be gotten at knockdown prices, hence why it doesn’t happen very often. If the club can find more of the Cazorla type quality signings at knockdown prices, absolutely no-one will complain. But generally speaking he was the exception to the rule.

    All of this is pretty much obvious, so really not sure what your gripe is about. No-one wishes Cazorla cost more than he did, everyone is happy that we got such a good player at such an affordable price.

  • A. Stewart

    @ Rufusstan re:

    We all know what we have got in Santi, how lucky we were to get him at all, and the advantage we took in Malaga’s situation to get him that cheaply.

    The point is that there is a habit amongst some fans (and particularly the media) to directly link a player’s quality to his price. World class players cost £40 mil, so if you didn’t cost £40 mil; you cannot be world class.

    I think your conclusion here is off, and more a less of caricature of what you think others think. First let’s accept the reality that GENERALLY “world class players” (a subjective phrase if there ever was one), obviously cost more than players who haven’t earned a reputation of top quality and/or exceptional talent.

    Moving beyond that, imo, it seems that those who defend Wenger’s transfer policies, or at least are neutral to them and put their trust in him doing as he sees fit, tend to paint those who speak out against it as being only concerned with price. That’s nonsense. No gooners go around saying let’s spend lots of money first, rather they say let’s get good quality/established players in. Or, let’s not spunk money on a plethora or kids and projects that may or may not come good in years, when the same or arguably LESS money could be spent on a proven quality player or two, that (while there are no guarantees) stand a much better of being able to have a more telling impact sooner and thus affording the club a better chance to be successful on the field. It’s obvious logic.

    Further, the caricature is used to try to beat down fans who question the wisdom of getting in a Sanogo project for example when we can clearly AFFORD to do much better for the now and near future impacts. And the cynical remarks about it from Wenger and his loyalists is that people are dismissive simply because he doesn’t cost the arbitrarily nonsensically high figures of 50-100 M (which no one is asking to spend on a player, or thinks that is the benchmark at where top quality starts). So then the reverse psychology employed is well who’s to say that Sanogo isn’t a potential World Class talent on or hand and don’t dismiss him because of his lack of price.. While in REALITY, people are skeptical because he’s an injury-riddled 20 year old from League 2 that only played a handful of games, and now comprises on of very few out and out senior team strikers at our club, when obviously the resources are there to get a much more proven option.

    No-one is saying the players need to cost 30, 40, 50 or 100M, but it doesn’t take managing football for 30 years, or making 10,000 substitutions or whatever, to logically question Wenger’s repeated assertions over recent title-less years that there aren’t many players out there that represent an improvement on what we have, especially in the context of our STATED financial ability.

  • uk

    whats the point of this post please? have we now resorted to ‘cooking up’ arguments so we can win it? (maybe like creating an emirates cup so we can win it). has anybody(even one) complained about cazorla’s quality?(something we knew about, at least 3-4years before purchasing), does any fan complain that players like ozil,khedira,vidal,m.gomez, d.villa, even zlatan and the dortmund squad etc are hugely talented players who have moved on the cheap, even after establishing themselves as stars in the game? if you think higuain/suarez are too expensive, surely they arent the only big talents out there, maybe messi might even come free of charge(ok that was sarcastic), but the point is, if you are looking for bargains, fine. if you cant get them, then pay up. no point going for 5average guys, cos you dont wanna pay for 2class players.
    sandro rosell, sums it up when he said, a bale which cost 100m and plays, is still cheaper than an unknown who cost 0.5m but doesnt play.

  • A. Stewart

    @ John G:

    Re: “so it seems a bit desperate to make up a point of view that doesn’t exist just so you can disagree with it.”

    Very well put

    and..

    “The trouble is that too often in recent years the club have looked at a player’s price tag instead of their ability, which has led to our squad being full of an excess amount of players who, while cheap, are not of the quality required to bring us sporting success.”

    Even better said! The irony of people complaining that others look at price tage first, is that statement can easily be turned around with the same assumption that the club tends to look at price tag first and may opt not for quality that it can undoubtedly afford often over dsiagreements about what amounts to peanuts relative to a club of this size and operating in the elite bracket of top level football.

    It’s almost as ironic as those who: Talk about all these various mercenaries in football moving to clubs that pay high and value trophies. When our club has been riddled with its own mercenaries, average players who are paid much higher than their market value, and are often so content to not play and rot on the bench and wind down their contracts to preserve their earnings, rather than show some sporting ambition and make a step down to a club where they could play regularly but likely get paid less.

    It’s almost as ironic as those who complain about money in football, and their greatest current pride in Arsenal often seems to start with discussions of the club’s success in financial terms first and foremost.

    Scales may be different, but the principles are the same.

  • uk

    its great to have folks like rupert, john and A. Stewart around. welldone guys.

  • A. Stewart

    “whats the point of this post please? have we now resorted to ‘cooking up’ arguments so we can win it?”

    Uk, apparently so…

    “if you are looking for bargains, fine. if you cant get them, then pay up. no point going for 5average guys, cos you dont wanna pay for 2class players.”

    Well said, and that’s a point that seems to be missed on many Wenger loyalists, it’s simple economics…What’s the point on spending all this money in wages and/or fees for a bunch of average players that unsurprisingly make little impact when the same or less can get a couple proven players that have a greater chance of making an impact and benefit for the club (and therefore financial rewards too).

    Just in the last 3 years..Santos, Gervinho, Chamakh, Squilacci, Park have all been signed/bought and quickly deemed not good enough and are gone or soon to be… (well apparently Gervinho’s failing is the fans’ fault or something)..

    Just in fees that’s from regular scouring of the web, that’s about an estimate of 22-25M, and well into double figures in millions in salary paid collectively.

    What’s the point? Couldn’t the same 22-25M be spent on a highly rated player ? And that’s just a generous handful of names, that can be exponentially extended if we include a plethora of loanees and kids that never make it, and several other average players that have or had been on our books for years and years (eating up wages, and in some cases costing transfer fees) that the manager clearly doesn’t/didn’t rate to make a long-term first team impact ….

    Most gooners who question these things, don’t want the club to spend silly money recklessly just for spending it sake, nor do they want us to go on a City/Chelsea-esque spending spree, rather they want us to be more efficient with the resources that we do have, especially when it is clear via club statements, published accounts that we do have considerable resources.

    You guys can ignore all of this and find comfort in your caricatures of the supposed “AAA” as irresponsible, glory hunters who recklessly want us to risk “doing a Leed’s”…or you can open your eyes and realize they are just looking for logical, streamlined efficiency and maximizing the available resources that we do have to get more bang for our buck, without going outside our means.

  • Messi's dad

    I think Tony is just pointing out the superficial perception that Arsenal do not have a ‘marquee’ player, and have not signed one, since RvP and Cesc left (and therefore, if we are being ‘serious’ at all, we must get one, anyone).

    I think the 40 mil pound fee for Suarez (alleged by the media, and not Liverpool nor Arsenal, I believe!) is just ludicrous. He wants to go, we’ve 10+ years (and counting) of continuous Champions League experience, and we paid 52 mil pounds for 4 internationals (2 Spanish, 1 German and 1 French). I believe we bid market rate (which can’t be more than what Napoli paid for Higuain?), and hence Liverpool are furious.

  • Bootoomee

    Messi’s dad,

    That is my reading of the article too. I don’t even think it is ambiguous at all. But then people always see what they want to see.

  • marlon2

    hadduukkeennn

  • marlon2

    Czarola is the best thing to have happened to us since henry left. viva caz

  • swing

    @A.Stewart

    You mention gervinho, chamack, santos, park and sqillacci to make your point but you fail to mention Arteta, Kosiciellny, Metersacker, Monreal, Song on the flipside of that coin. And How highly rated do you get for 25 million these days, could you get a Higuain, a Suarez, a Rooney.

    I remember Andre Arshavin was also really highly rated to bad he wasn’t for us. The reality is Alex Ferguson has a similar record with bad signings & he’s hailed as the best coach in the Premier League, the difference is he’s had more leeway since he’s had more to spend we weren’t and aren’t in a similar position.

  • nicolas

    Tony, Walter! Will either of you come to Helsinki to see the Arsenal-City game?

  • uk

    @swing
    if he’s had more leeway, then frankly he can spend as much as he wants on dross. as long as he gets in the quality thats needed to get the job done then it doesnt matter. i honestly dont see how we can keep crying poverty, then go about pissing funds up a wall, then blame our failure to compete on the same factor

  • Rupert Cook

    That’s a very long winded way of saying Cazorla is a marquee player. The piece seems to be mainly about fans being annoyed that we don’t pay crazy prices for marquee players and what a shame Cazorla wasn’t 40 million.

    @Swing, Monreal has hardly done enough to put him in the successful bracket. He looks promising but let’s see what he produces this season. Vela, Bendtner, Djourou can all join Arshavin as disappointments though I rather like Arshavin.

    @Rufusstan, yes the Invincibles was a pretty cheap team but I doubt you could put that team together now at today’s crazy prices. I’m no fan of these insane price tags attached to top footballers. Bale worth 100 million, utter madness. Unfortunately this is the world we have to operate in and unless we pay a bit more than we’re used to we’ll be left behind. Anyway I’m becoming disillusioned with the whole circus, I have had more fun watching Oxford in their miniscule ground than I ever had watching Arsenal at the Emirates where I needed a telescope to see the players and a third of the crowd was playing on their mobile phones and it was so silent you could hear them texting.

    As to us signing players I expect that’ll happen near the end of the window. I’m sure it’ll happen because Wenger’s no fool and he certainly doesn’t believe he can win the league with the squad as it is. If he doesn’t sign anyone then many fans will lose faith in the club and wonder why we have millions sitting idly in the bank when it’s quite obvious that our main rivals have strengthened and we have the means to do so but haven’t.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Coming out of my house in the woods I see some lacking the ability to understand what Tony said. It was clear to me as a non-English speaking person what he meant. Yet I see too many people who clearly are English speaking but who cannot understand the article.

    Or maybe they just come here to moan regardless what we publish?

    Just make it short then next time. Just write the word “moan” and we will know what you mean. And we don’t have to try to read the whole moan…

  • GoonerDog

    @ Georgaki-pyrovolitis

    You want to know your place…..Walter and Tony do the jokes round here!

  • Va Cong

    Thats so funny.

    How I saw it the article is about:

    1. £30 million players or above player A, B or C who some arsenal fans haven’t heard of say buy him he looks good on youtube their!
    2. Shopping for the best price. (There is a certain amount you would go to to buy say a suit or Monkey)
    3. Quality not based on price, and end of the day how they fit the squad.
    4. Its called poking fun at the lemmings (AAA).

  • Pat

    @Prince from Nigeria –

    ‘The oil money they did not sweat for…’

    Well put!

  • bob

    Walter,
    I realize that this is not the most welcome question at this moment, but how about “our” underselling Cesc and RVP for circa 24M each. Perhaps a bit more of a fight and a wee bit more might have been squeezed out of each side (if we’ve even been repaid the Barca money) and we’d be able to moot some of the notions that we’re chronically poor (even when we’re not)? Isn’t there a converse to splash the cash that is equally untenable and unsustainable?

  • uk

    @walter,
    having fun moaning about the moaners eh?

  • Adam

    Cazorla is an exceptional player, most of us know that. I find it incredible that no pundits have picked up on his ability to retain possession under pressure especially for someone his size. Players such as him, should be watched carefully to fully understand that football is an art form when practiced in his fashion. He is a true defender of the ball who only loses possession when outnumbered.

  • Dennis Brady

    Another summer day, no signings. Oh yes, Suarez, only needs bale not to turn up in Madrid, or Rooney not to sign for Chelsea and either of those clubs will blow us out of the water for Suarez. Leaving us with a single striker, our rivals will each have at least four.The fact is, we have raised the issue with Suarez, upset a rival, damaged our rep, done the dirty work but either Chelsea or real will walk off with the prize, that is of course assuming this is not just a wenger stalling tactic to avoid signings, which I strongly suspect it all is. Meanwhile , last jan, we tried to sign a player called Capoue, for some reason, we now do not need him, despite loaning out coquelin. And just look who is about to sign capoue.While wenger pretends to focus on Suarez, we have only two fit defensive mfs and two fit central defenders as we start the season, and champions league qualification. Is arteta going to stay fit all season? Wenger is gambling horribly…as he usually does, injured playes and no reinforcements for the new season. 28 departed, one bought in despite all that money. No Suarez, no signings, no new deal for wenger, the board and CEO are aware they will become a laughing stock, increasing numbers of fans will not stand it, nor will our key playes. The day of reckoning approaches and we can be rid of this Stone Age fraud. The question is, if wenger refuses to buy, and needlessly takes us backwards, out of the top four, will you guys still back him? And if so, as a Liverpool owner once suggested, can I have some of what you are smoking? Your world must be a very nice fluffy place

  • Adam

    @ Dennis Brady,

    Hope you feel better soon?????

    And thankyou so much for being a pessimistic git, means I don’t have to be??????

  • Dennis Brady

    No worries but the way this manager as opposed to the club are operating this summer do not see grounds for much optimism. Our first eleven are okish after that we are seriously lacking. The money is there the clock is ticking and we need far more than a player we are after but may not get. Are you in approval of such a situation? Do you really think just giroud as a striker will get us through a season and Ramsey and arteta alone will protect our defence until next may. Will kos and per stay fit until tv returns probably in dec? If you were a CEO who had promised the manager money to spend would you tolerate going into a season under such conditions? Please tell me you are at least a bit concerned? Ivan Gazidis said wenger has money to spend should be fail to do so on his head be it. He also said wenger answers to the fans. If he fails to land Suarez and in doing so other vital signings the fans will judge believe me and so will the board players and sponsors both current and potential. Failure to make a big signing and heaven forbid qualify for the champions league this month and wengers penny pinching will be exposed as very costly

  • Adam

    No not concerned at all. What other fans do and think is outside of my control, so why bother. If you have followed anything I have written you will understand that I put football first then Arsenal.

    Arsenal will be fine, whether we win a trophy, come close, or are a complete disaster. I will support and refrain from criticism, which I know can be hard. But such is life.

    I look forward to a new season with optimism, wow, world cup year. The players really have something to play for. Like a fine wine, I hope it’s “A good year” (cracking film as well).

  • OMGArsenal

    Dennis Brady and others of your ilk…….stop reading and believing the Red Tops, stop getting your panties in a twist over media rumour-mongering, stop thinking Wenger, the Board or anyone else for that matter give a damn about your opinions and STOP trying to pretend you speak for AFC supporters and what they want. Here’s a reality check for you:

    1)Wenger has far from finished his TW business in this window. Nobody, including yourself or our resident moaners on UA have any clue about the future or AFC’s business
    2)Liverpool have invented a strawman in order to redirect attention from the fact that they have cocked up royally with Suarez.
    3)Wenger doesn’t need your inflated and self-righteous opinions about our squad…he is far better placed and much better at handling the situation than you’ll ever be.
    4)All of your hysteria and pointless questioning about possible future negatives is a mark of someone who cannot see the forest for the trees. Wenger, the Board and Gazidis are fully aware of these issues and will handle them professionally….your amateurish angst is sad and counter-productive at best and ludicrously poor pantomime at worst.

  • americangooner

    even a layman knows that the current squad needs reinforcements after the departure of so many at the club. so why would wenger be stubborn on adding quality as well as quantity when his own players are calling for additions including our captain. That said constantly sprouting out negative isn’t going to add to anything. wenger isn’t reading blogs. The best I can do is hoping that the club does what it promised to do after the AGM, and doing nothing despite the increased financial competitiveness is a bit disappointing.

  • elkieno

    OMG Arsenal: Far out well said, that is one comment that a copy and paste on every arsenal blog in the world would be ok by me.
    Could not have put it better.

  • elkieno

    You know what, I remember when we bought Santi a year ago people WERE saying the following, ‘he is ok but not good enough to replace Cesc, he is a poor mans version of him and the other 2 currently plying at their trade at Barca’. ‘We didnt get Mata cos AW is a ‘tight fisted’ blah blah and now we end up with the dregs in Cazorla, all before he kicked a ball and then after a few games when our form dipped. They also said things like, ‘if he is so good why is he not playing at Barca or Madrid now, why didnt they go for him. This proves what we all know and have said many times really, that all these people (didnt use ‘fans’, cos they arent in my book) just follow, follow…
    Anyway moving on, alot of people including me are rightly saying it was their first season together, so cant wait to see next season now that they know each other and without anyone leaving.
    But the flip side is that it could also be that 2nd syndrome thingy that we hear about or is that just a myth we all believe cos it is said so many times by so many people?
    cheers.

  • elkieno

    * 2nd season syndrome.
    (I got a whole page to myself!)

  • canadian gooner

    Strawman argument much? This blog always is, and will continue to be, a great source of amusement for Arsenal fans. Note that I said Arsenal fans rather than Wenger fans. Because I support the club, regardless of the manager. This allows me to be objective about the manager’s performance. This blog on the other hand, starts from the assumption that Lord Wenger can do no wrong. Everything you say after this must be dismissed outright, even if it has merit, because you started from a point of complete bias (funny how you love to write about everybody else’s bias yet completely ignore your own). The result is ridiculous articles like this one. Thanks for the laughs.

  • ARSENAL 13

    hmmmnnn……I see a flood of pundits/tactitions/strategists/economists…in Untold off late.

    Herez what happened to a certain pundit. Shebby Singh. ESPN. Spurs fan. He always criticized Arsenal way of doing business. Poor Blackburn owners, fell for his cheap talk, made him their director of football (Is he still there??).

    Moral of the story: Its easy to pass judgments while sitting on the fence. When you get on the pitch, thats when you know what it takes.

  • Bootoomee

    elkieno (@4.43),

    I have another example of such flip-flopping:

    Steve Bould and Arsenal defence!

    At the beginning of last season when our defence was tight, we were told by the Wenger haters that it was SB’s defensive strategies that’s working. I didn’t argue with them because what was important to me was that my team was doing well. Although, I do remember the Arsenal going for 49 matches unbeaten and setting the record for the longest time without conceding a goal in ECL; all these were achieved without Steve Bould!

    Then we started conceding as the season progressed and the Wenger haters changed their tune. Apparently, Wenger had taken off the defensive strategic duties off Steve Bould out of jealousy and spite. It takes a mind that is deranged with Wenger’s hatred to cook up such a lie and an unthinking one to believe it. But we have loads of both and so, the lie persisted….

    Until the team’s defence tightened again (majorly due to the Kos-Per partnership), but the Wenger haters still changed the story again. You see, AW had finally admitted his errors in sidelining SB and he had then restored him back to his defensive strategic duties!

    That is the stuff that these guys are made of. I mostly ignore or mock them. Reasoning with them is a waste of time.

  • uk

    @el &bootoomee,
    caz is a good player especially in our team, but though i’m hearing it for the first time, i totally agree, he is a poor man’s replacement for fab. thats not to take anything away from him, there are not many players better than cesc in his position. but even in the epl, caz is rated highly, but not as much as we rate him, cos of his importance to us. if you need proof, consider the nominations for the pfa, fwp POTY &TOTY awards

  • Dis post just reminds me of wat wenger said about sanogo.”he(sanogo) has not made the headlines bcos he wasnt bought 4 40million pounds but he will soon”dat was funny though the price stag on a player doesnt determine his talent and 4 dose of u here dat r saying santi is a poor mans fab its an insult to a player of such calibre.

  • A. Stewart

    “I think Tony is just pointing out the superficial perception that Arsenal do not have a ‘marquee’ player, and have not signed one, since RvP and Cesc left (and therefore, if we are being ‘serious’ at all, we must get one, anyone). ”

    Well @ Messi’s Dad, then Tony is pointing out something that doesn’t exist…as no Gooner think that Cazorla isn’t a marquee player..that’s the entire point of the rebuttals, along with the ironic and unknowing admittance by Tony that actually gooners (including those that want more investment) in their love and rating for Cazorla, defeat his constant meme that they only value players based on price tag. Because again, no-one was questioning Cazorla’s quality when he signed because of his relatively low fee.

  • A. Stewart

    @ Swing..: Re: “@A.Stewart

    You mention gervinho, chamack, santos, park and sqillacci to make your point but you fail to mention Arteta, Kosiciellny, Metersacker, Monreal, Song on the flipside of that coin.”

    Well then you obviously don’t understand my point..
    My point is NOT about saying Wenger gets every signing/developmental project wrong or whatever, of course that is not true.

    But there are no shortage of examples of players that have failed (senior players, a plethora of kids, etc.) that have collectively cost millions and millions in wages and fees when it doesn’t take an economic genius to work out that for the same and actually less investment much higher rated players (that logic says gives you a better chance of being successful) could be brought in.

    And expanding on that, there seems to be a general preponderance by Wenger to rather spend on gambles, kids, developmental projects, less heralded names, and more importantly to do so in LARGE quantities (up to this summer’s culling we had averaged a net increase of some 40 players since we last won a trophy in 05) rather than spend less money on a more streamlined approach based on quality that can give more impact and bang for buck.

    And further as espoused by the manager and his stated preferences for developing teams these ways, his stated aims for a more socialist-type wage structure (thus not born out of financial reality but based on idealism), his stated ire at high prices for players/financial doping etc…This lack of efficiency with available resources reflects deliberate policy, and thus can be aptly examined and/or critiqued.

    Anyone can draw up a list of 2 dozen, 3 dozen even more players that over the last few seasons have amounted to nothing, and then can make reasonable attempts to estimate the monetary cost of these players in fees and wages (it could be even more if one considered any number of ancillary/supporting costs), and then use simply logic to equate those monetary figures that to a much smaller number of rated quality players that would have given us a greater chance at being successful on the field (which then has a myriad of knock on financial benefits) with the same available resources and during the same trying times economically since the stadium.

  • A. Stewart

    @ Rufusstan re: “The point is that there is a habit amongst some fans (and particularly the media) to directly link a player’s quality to his price. World class players cost £40 mil, so if you didn’t cost £40 mil; you cannot be world class.

    It is a ridiculous assertion, but so many people seem to have been convinced that it must be true”

    Rather it’s a ridiculous assertion to make the assertion that fans judge a player primarily on his price tag (which somehow has reached a convenient arbitrary figure of 40M these days to drive home the point).. All that assertion is a comforting caricature of those who disagree with Wenger’s policies by those who support them..It (the assertion about the assertion) has little or no basis in reality.

    “there is a correlation between price and quality at better players attract more interest, but it isn’t a rule.”

    I think pretty much everyone whatever side of the fence you sit on Wenger’s direction, agrees with that.

    “Yet the Invincibles set us back around £44 million.(A quarter of that was for Henry, who at £11 mil was clearly pretty second rate )”

    A bit simplified, but anyway, father proof that it is about QUALITY first and foremost over price. I made a lengthy contribution or two about not only the invinceables but the other successful AFC teams of the late 90s and early 00s..
    – And those teams were littered, littered with players that won everything there was to win domestically throughout Europe and S. America, and also every major international honor there was to win PRIOR to working with Wenger at Arsenal..

    – Those teams were littered with players who are full internationals with big tournament prior to working with Wenger at Arsenal.

    – Those teams had lots of players who had several individual honors and awards domestically and internationally PRIOR to working with Wenger at Arsenal.

    -Those teams had many players who played at and were signed from big clubs (and thus were experienced with the highest of expectations/pressure) PRIOR to working with Wenger at Arsenal..

    -Those teams had some of the highest rated youngsters (that of course Wenger should be given credit for developing) that were tracked by and/or signed from big clubs, thus their quality and potential were well known PRIOR to working under Wenger at Arsenal.

    And (as I mentioned in the those postings) Wenger should be celebrated for assembling such undoubted quality at those price…but there’s that word that was never in question with the majority of those players…QUALITY. The type of player he has recruited since has generally trended to less experienced/younger, less accomplished, less rated players (also vastly smaller)…and with his many words about: desiring to grow a successful team from young with a mutual love for the club; not bringing in players that could “kill” youngsters’ development even in the acknowledgement of potentially costing games/points along the way etc… all against the background of a vast net increase in total squad numbers and increasing profitability over time, it’s hard not to think that direction was driven by as much (if not more) through idealism as financial realities.

    So accounting for the differences in type of players recruited then, one also has to consider that since then the economics of the game has largely changed, where in the prices for that type of quality he used to get and win with, are at an obviously greater premium nowadays (especially in the face on increased competition unlike then when it was really only United as a direct threat domestically).. However, that is NOT to say that many many players of celebrated experience, quality, and accomplishments haven’t moved for very affordable prices during the period in question..

    But it’s clear choice driven by ideals have been made, choices such as spending large transfer fees on projects like Walcott and Oxlade, who when all is said and done (in the case of Walcott) take 7 years to reach a point that was envisioned for him at the costs of arguably 25 or so mil over time in wages/fees…

    These are choice that Wenger/AFC made.

    I can’t see how anyone can argue against we could have done things more efficiently in terms of quality with the same available resources.

  • Uk

    @A.stewart
    After saying all that, what else can I say? Bravo man.

  • elkieno

    UK: just say nothing, the world would be happier…

  • The font

    I do not get the point of this we can not argue that quality determines price yes the odd bargain slips through but you will always have to pay a premium for a recognised optimum product I think the aaa point is that most of the worlds best are priced over the 40mill mark and we should be in the market for them of which I agree

  • Stuart

    The Font,
    But there is also the matter that price doesn’t always guarantee you quality and not every player will fit in every team. We play our own style of football hence the players who are likely to be our stars could be at any team good or bad.