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“If I was a journalist interested in football…” Mourinho and Untold at one!

By Tony Attwood

Will they, won’t they?

They being Uefa, and the subject matter being, “deal with Monaco, PSG and Man City over FFP.”

Monaco I just can’t get my head around.  They have a stadium that holds 18500 and their average crowd this season is under 9000.  They are second in the league (having been in the second division last season), and being in Monte Carlo their players pay no tax, although  the French league has told AS Monaco they must relocate their HQ (and so their tax base) to France by June 2014.

In the past year they have spent £155m on transfers and received about £5m.  They will most likely qualify for European competitions next season.  What does FFP have to say?   We wait.

Monaco almost makes PSG look sane – at least they have a full-ish stadium.  They have spent £120m and brought in £23m this season.

As for Man City they have spent £100m and brought in £10.5m.

All these figures are from TransferMarkt.co.uk   And just for comparison they are showing Arsenal as outgoing £45.5m incoming £11m in terms of transfers – which is easily acceptable given the income from the stadium, TV and commercial deals.

So how can Monaco, Man C and PSG make things balance and keep the FFP regulators happy?    In my view (and of course it is just my view) they can’t unless they suggest that some of the money doesn’t count because it is paid for through commercial income outside of people attending football matches.  Or perhaps they suggest it was a mistake and all will be well next year (which is not quite as unlikely as it sounds, as we have just found out).

Indeed I guess it was this that Jose Mourinho was thinking about when he stated that some clubs are dealing with FFP “in a dodgy way”. (Chelsea’s figures show £115m outgoing and £49.5m income.)

Man City have released financial results for 2012/13 and these show a wages bill of £233m.  But still they say they are in line with FFP regulations!  The old phrase “creative accounting” comes to mind.

But now there’s the new twist.

The re-written FFP rules say that if a club fails to meet FFP regulations and then offer to do a deal with Uefa then any directly affected party (which I guess means any other club in the same league that might qualify for Europe, or any club in any other country that is playing in Europe) can appeal against the attempt by the club come to an arrangement with Uefa to mitigate their sanction in a plea bargain.  The matter then goes to a Uefa tribunal.

Matters should start moving in May, and there are mutterings within Arsenal that they would certainly support appeals against any club that appears not to be playing by the rules.  But Arsenal look fairly certain to get into the Champions League yet again (I’m being cautious here!) so can’t lead the way.  But Liverpool (who look to be less certain of qualifying to the Champs League, but seem fairly ok in terms of FFP since they are spending most of their money on the ground) could lead the complaints.

Indeed whoever comes fourth could launch the appeal against Man City if Man City is seen to be outside FFP and if Uefa doesn’t throw them out of the Champions League.

So to be clear on this, Uefa first has to stand up to Man City, Monaco and PSG and then offer a settlement of less than the full penalty in order to avoid a protracted legal case.  Then at that moment the appeals from other clubs who have missed out on Champions League places, and other clubs who might be drawn against these teams, can start.

The problem we have is that this new rule about plea bargaining and then appeals by other clubs has only just emerged as part of a new Article 15.  No one quite knows why it is there and what it will mean in practice – but it seems to be the loophole that Man City have been looking for.

Man City have already got the fact that the wages of players signed before June 2010, not being counted, behind them.  But their continuing spending means that might only get them out of a hole for a year or two.

Chelsea reckon they are ok because they made a small profit in 2012 and this is why Mourinho is now talking about the issue.  He said at the end of last week, “There are clubs that are following exactly the project of the financial fair play and there are other clubs doing it in a dodgy way.  That for me is very clear. I don’t name the clubs, that’s not my job.

“If I was a journalist interested in football… it would be something interesting to do and it’s not very difficult to do, but that’s when financial fair play, the name, the meaning has to be fair financial fair play, not dodgy financial fair play because if it’s dodgy, take the fair and put just dodgy financial fair play.”

So now we have three big hitters pushing for fair play to mean fair play – Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool.   But the key to Uefa’s thinking could still be in France.  If Monaco are allowed through, then FFP will probably mean nothing.

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167 comments to “If I was a journalist interested in football…” Mourinho and Untold at one!

  • Jax

    The Fat Fool at DM has his say on the subject today. Ian Woolridge must be turning in his grave.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Whatever about the likes of City, very little will happen I fear, Platinis son is advising PSG, and Platini will not touch a French interest. If he lets the French teams off the hook, he cannot go for City.
    Platinis days are numbered anyway

  • insideright

    It is somewhat ironic that Chelsea are giving such obvious support to FFP given that it was first mooted in order specifically to curb the excesses of that very club. But, of course, that was before Man City came along and started to out-Chelsea Chelsea. Now that they don’t hold most of the trump cards, it’s become logical that they want the ‘rules’ to change.
    As far as accounting goes it’s important to remember the impact that amortisation of expenditure has on a balance sheet. Buy a player and his transfer fee can be spread evenly over the length of his contract. Sell a player and you can take the whole fee straight to the revenue line. So Juan Mata has an immediate (and full) impact on the bottom line while those that Chelsea bought will have their negative financial impact diluted over time.
    It still means that revenue generation/cost cutting needs to happen regularly in the future so we can expect high paid players (Terry, Lampard and Cole) to be leaving sooner rather than later.
    City face the same situation and you can bet your life that Man Utd. will be at the head of the queue to demand redress if their noisy neighbours appear to have got away with something. Perhaps the movement of David Gill from CEO at Old Trafford to a seat of power at UEFA might be useful in that respect. The other main signatories to the letter demanding firmer application of FFP in the EPL (Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal) will also lend strong support, whether they are in Europe or not. In fact, if one of them is kept out of Europe by a club seen to be ‘cheating’ we can expect serious upset.
    Spurs and Liverpool can only really justify major investment in their stadiums if they are in the Champions League on a regular basis so there is too much money at stake to just take the whole situation laying down.
    Man City will claim that they are laying the foundations for the production of home grown talent and a move away from dependence on the transfer market (and high wages) to buy success. But their record of late in this respect(and that of Chelsea for that matter) is appalling so they will be able to provide little or no eveidence that they will deliver on a new strategy, let alone stick to it if things don’t go their way.
    We are about to arrive in very interesting times as regards off the field politics and, just maybe, having Jose speaking up for the Arsenal way of doing things could be a very good thing.

  • M18CTID

    So City have brought in £10.5 million in transfer sales in the past year have we? I presume the bulk of that is the Tevez fee but funny how the sale of Balotelli for nearly £20 million exactly 12 months ago is conveniently forgotten.

    A word of advice Mr Attwood – if you’re going to write a piece condemning Manchester City Football Club, I suggest you get your facts straight first. As for this pathetic straw-clutching attempt to get City banned from European competition, keep dreaming. I’ll also point out that your thinly-veiled accusation that City are in some way “cooking the books” is libellous and could potentially land you in a lot of trouble.

    I’ll leave it there because I’m sure plenty of my fellow blue brethren will be along shortly to pull yet another one of your laughable articles to pieces.

  • GunnerPete`

    The only suggestion I can make to make all ‘things’ transparent and fair, is to have two league tables. One to show where teams would be if they are living within the income generated by the football and the fans. Then a second a table that would consist of Chelski,City,Manure and sometimes Liverpool, that would would represent only the clubs that BUY trophies. That way History will not be distorted for future generations ie; they will know how come these clubs were suddenly successful.

  • WalterBroeckx

    M18CTID,

    “All these figures are from TransferMarkt.co.uk ”

    So if you have any complaints direct it to them. You could also give us the correct numbers yourself of course.

    Bottom line: are you cheating your way to success or not is something you didn’t answer.
    More than 300M losses over the last years…Where would yo be without the oil money? You know the answer, do you….

  • Mandy Dodd

    take it we can look forward to Jose being done for libel then?

  • Man City fans are very sensitive, aren’t they?

  • Amos

    FFP measures spending over a three year period and doesn’t take full effect until 2015 anyway so one year’s spending isn’t going to be critical and dramatic decisions are unlikely to be taken this summer. The most important fact is that the threat of challenges exists is another step in increasing the pressure for all clubs to come into some sort of line on FFP. It is having an effect if only on the talk softly and carry a big stick principle.

  • Sammy The Snake

    Jose is the biggest hypocrite in football when he complains about “parking the bus” or “financial doping”. Chelsea are the ones who invented these tricks.

    As I’ve said many times here, ManC will be safe. They are owned by a very rich city state. They can claim to expand their commercial/sponsorship revenue as much as they want (as they did with their stadium naming rights). They can easily get a new sponsor for the inner walls of their urinals and show 100Million income for it. This will easily offset/cook their books.

    The same will work for PSG, being owned by Qatar. But I wonder how Monaco can get out!

  • M18CTID

    So Walter, how come it doesn’t include the Balotelli fee? It’s a simple enough question.

    And where would Arsenal FC be without the money pumped in by Henry Norris and Danny Fiszman? I think you know the answer but you’re too scared to admit it.

    Fact is Walter, almost every football club has had money invested in it at some point or other but blatant hypocrites like you choose to airbrush such facts out of your club’s history.

    City are going nowhere soon and when we’re turning over a profit in 12 months time, and a few years further down the line we’re turning over more money than any other club in England there is absolutely nothing that your club or any other club will be able to do about it.

  • M18CTID

    Bootoomee – Sensitive? Me? Nah mate, I just like to pop in here every now and then to see what hilarious rubbish is being spouted. It brightens up my day to see the likes of TA commenting on how we’re going to be kicked out of Europe (there’s a world of difference between what one wants to happen and what is likely to happen), and Walter telling us all how MCFC have bought off all the referees in the Premier League.

    Fact is mate, that isn’t the sole view of City fans either because there are plenty of Gooners out there that also see this site as nothing more than a laughing stock.

  • Va Cong

    Fact is mate you can’t beat stupid at being stupid but I challenge you fellow gooners!

  • Andy L

    Surely its not just the money spent its what it is spent on. How many players have been bought by Man City and Chelsea who are now on loan and therefore not available to other clubs to buy. This is the area where FFP could impact by reducing the number of players each club can loan thereby widening the net for other clubs to compete.

  • Amos

    Nothing wrong with anyone putting money into football clubs M18CTID and there is nothing in FFP to prevent anyone from continuing to do so. What it does do is inhibit those clubs spending disproportionately on transfer fees and wages and inflating costs for all other clubs not all of which are backed by sovereign wealth funds. There’s no limit at all as to how much you put into academies and developing your own players.

  • Va Cong

    Fact is mate Mandy Maureentheho is a high class hooker without the riches he would simply be lady of the knight walker of the mean streets. As his pimp has less bling he now tries to fight dirty!

  • Va Cong

    M18CTID thinks ticket prices are too cheap. Hasn’t said much if daddy leaves what would happen?

  • M18CTID

    Al, oh so now we’re talking about the 2013/14 season as opposed to the “last year” which is what the author of this article stated. Sorry, my mistake – I’d have thought the last year would’ve meant the last 12 months rather than the last 6 months or so. Either way, City’s latest accounts are for the 2012/13 season and they details a net spend of around £19 million. Granted, that net spend is considerably higher this season but that’s because several high earners were removed from our books while the new arrivals came in on much less wages than many of the departing players. And all of us apart from a complete idiot would know that a transfer fee is amortised over the length of a player’s contract. Note the key word there – amortisation. Some of the clowns posting on here would do well to read up on it.

  • Amos

    As things stand City are likely to meet FFP regulations but they will not be able to do so maintaining the same scale of excess, relative to the competition, as they have done since the Mansour takeover. Their revenues will increase, as will the revenues of most football clubs, but in order to stay within FFP they will still have to operate within their revenues which are more finite than Mansours wealth. FFP is a ball and chain not a guillotine.

  • M18CTID

    Correct Amos – and if you had any idea about what is going on in East Manchester you’d know that MCFC is investing £150 million into a new training complex and academy that is being built on around 70 acres of derelict land adjacent to the stadium, and is due to be completed in time for the start of next season. Not to mention the fact that the club will shortly be announcing the redevelopment of the stadium which will increase the capacity to 61,500.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wabNqKx8FqA

  • M18CTID

    “As things stand City are likely to meet FFP regulations but they will not be able to do so maintaining the same scale of excess, relative to the competition, as they have done since the Mansour takeover. Their revenues will increase, as will the revenues of most football clubs, but in order to stay within FFP they will still have to operate within their revenues which are more finite than Mansours wealth. FFP is a ball and chain not a guillotine.”

    I fully agree mate and I don’t think it is healthy to rely on one man’s wealth indefinitely. As it happens, City won’t need to spend at the rate we have done in the past so it’s a moot point really. The hard bit was breaking into the top 4 and beyond but that has now been achieved so player turnover won’t be quite as drastic in the future.

  • ARSENAL 13

    You jumped the gun dint you M18CTD. You should look at the history of Untold before you go on an all out assault. Tony has been a big supporter FFP. And he had earlier stated that his love for ARSENAL would diminish if ARSENAL followed the billionaire model.

    As for Norris buying the club. Its called purchase. Henry Norris had to settle the debts that ARSENAL had incurred. But Man City story is different I guess.

  • James Hetfields

    @M18CTID

    Is the club nickname the OILERS now? Without the Oily Daddies you blue mooners would still be waxing lyrical about Joe Royle.

    Admit that your Manc City club are taking the micky with FPP.

    Cant wait to gate crash your title push soon.

    Seek and Destroy

  • Micheal Ram

    M18CTID,

    You can complain all you want, you can condemn all you want and you can speculate all you want. We all know how Man City was before the Arabs came, we all know how much it costed them to win the league, we also know that the UK taxpayers paid for their stadium and insults them back by splashing on players’ wages like there’s no tomorrow. Not to mention the dubious sponsorship conducted among cronies. The Chinese bloke in Cardiff already divided and conquered the club culture, it wont take long for the Arabs to do it. One open door will lead to another. So end of the day, Untold dont meant to slack or criticise other clubs unreasonably but to be justified and righteous. As for Arsenal, Norris and Friszman invested in the club facilities and stadium upgrading not just on players. For long term and self sufficient. And maybe Milan havnt paid at all for Balotelli yet. Similar like Barcelona still owning Arsenal for Henry and Hleb. Whatever it is, those transfer figures were not from Untold but from TransferMarkt.co.uk. In Wenger words, we are interested in facts not opinion.

  • M18CTID

    So let’s get this straight shall we ARSENAL 13 – Tony Attwood would sooner his club was owned by billionaires that TAKE MONEY out of the club rather than PUT MONEY into it? Because let’s face it – that’s exactly what Arsenal FC is at the moment. A football club owned by billionaires that are too tight fisted to put their own money in and would sooner fleece their fans instead. Congratulations mate – that really is as screwed up as it gets.

    As for Henry “so bent that he was banned for life” Norris, don’t even begin to insult my intelligence.

  • Amos

    Yeah – I get the impression that City are genuinely setting themselves to compete on a more equitable basis in future though I also think their excesses over the last 5 years have been way beyond a scale that might be considered sporting. Putting a brake on that and preventing it happening on the same scale again has to be better for the game.

  • M18CTID

    Michael Ram – oh dear, this just gets better and better: “As for Arsenal, Norris and Friszman invested in the club facilities and stadium upgrading not just on players.”

    So what are you saying? That Sheikh Mansour isn’t investing in the club facilities and stadium upgrading at MCFC? Not to mention the state-of-the-art academy and training ground that I mentioned a few posts up? Did you seriously engage your brain before posting that? Please tell me that you were on a wind-up because surely no football fan can be that thick….

  • ARSENAL 13

    @M18CTID, you need some history lesson.

    We dont need billionaires to pump money into ARSENAL. ARSENAL generates enough money to invest in itself and be competitive.

    With all the money being pumped into your club, it you who should be worried about the money being taken out. Not us……

  • Amos

    Arsenal aren’t fleecing the fans M18CTID. They have simply created a demand for tickets that exceeds the supply. As for billionaires putting money in what we have is a billionaire owner who is putting expertise in which is generating more revenue for the club to spend. He follows owners that also put their expertise in to build revenue generating assets which are also available for the club to spend. This is what is known as the self sustaining model. A club that is or has been wholly dependent on the largesse of billionaire owners, which by its nature cannot be sustained, is what is known as an unsustainable model – or, more popularly, financial doping.

  • M18CTID

    Are you on drugs ARSENAL 13? The point I was making is that Arsenal is owned and run by billionaires that would sooner take money out than put money in and while you might not need a cash injection at this moment in time, anyone with half a brain cell will know that your club has had financial leg-ups in the past so to accuse City of being somehow different to what’s gone on in your history is both hypocritical and incorrect. Do you follow me now?

    And if you think I should be worried about money being taken out of our club, then you obviously haven’t got a clue what’s going on up here have you?

    So far on this thread Amos is the only one that seems to have any grasp of reality.

  • Ronnie Lott

    Ronnie let me try and explain to you.

    This is a pro-Wenger site.

    Calling the readers of this site “Moron” in your comments doesn’t really take the debate on or offer any evidence or insights.

    OK?

  • bjtgooner

    “So far on this thread Amos is the only one that seems to have any grasp of reality.”

    That would mean that M18CTID admits that he/she does not have any grasp of reality – that being the case how can he/she be competent to judge anyone else?

  • M18CTID

    Amos, the point is that ADUG is working towards turning City into a self-sustaining model as well – you’re the one person on this thread that I thought could appreciate that. You only have to look at our year-on-year financial figures couple with the investment in all areas of the club (not just playing staff as one poster laughably claimed) to see that. It’s been stated by the club that profitability is imminent so I’d be expecting that to happen upon the release of next year’s accounts.

    Re the ticket prices – I agree that currently demand outstrips supply at the Emirates and market forces dictates ticket prices to a large degree. However, plenty of Gooners have been priced out over the last few years. I won’t deny that the same thing can happen at our place (and probably already is on a smaller scale), but the club has promised thousands of cheaper tickets (adult season tickets from £299) once the ground has been extended.

  • M18CTID

    “That would mean that M18CTID admits that he/she does not have any grasp of reality – that being the case how can he/she be competent to judge anyone else?”

    Very good but I was clearly referring to the Arsenal fans and not me.

  • bjtgooner

    “Very good but I was clearly referring to the Arsenal fans and not me.”

    Well M18CITD it is not what you wrote, therefore it cannot be concluded or assumed that the meaning you now state was intended was in fact carried clearly to anyone else.

  • ARSENAL 13

    hah….You assume the owners will take money out of ARSENAL. ARSENAL have billionaire shareholders who have no hand in day to day affairs of the club.

    And the leg ups…..well we show all the signs that we have learned a lesson or two from our history and are doing very thing necessary to not repeat the same.

    BUT you seem to be blinded by a couple of sparkling tins you’ve bought. Investment in academy, infrastructure etc are appreciated. But where does all that money come from???….

  • M18CTID

    It doesn’t matter where it comes from ARSENAL 13 – the point is that some clown on here reckoned that the only investment City’s owner makes is on players. One day it might dawn on some of you that City’s owner is going nowhere any time soon and is investing in the whole infrastructure of the club (not to mention the side effect of regenerating a whole swathe of East Manchester to boot – why the hell do you think Manchester City Council is wholly in favour of it?) which in turn will make it the kind of self-sustaining model that some of you Gooners are only too quick to pontificate about (I say some Gooners as there are plenty that don’t get involved in such pointless moralistic bickering).

    Don’t believe me? Well this might go some way to explaining things:

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/feb/01/manchester-city-leave-past-behind

  • Amos

    What has gone on at City, but not only City, is very different from what has gone on at Arsenal M18CTID. On scale alone, and in a much shorter period, it surpasses anything even Abramovich has done. It’s these excesses, and the damage it has done and would ultimately wreak on the game if it were continue, that has brought about the need for FFP so I don’t think it is realistic to claim what these clubs have done is in anyway normal business practice. If I were to set up a car dealership selling new luxury cars at 40% below the cost of production I would very quickly build massive revenues and quickly become the biggest dealership in the country. However I would also make massive record losses which couldn’t be sustained in the real world. As soon as I started selling those products above the costs of production sufficiently to cover the expenses of running the business revenues would drop again. In reality though normal business regulations wouldn’t allow it to happen as laws against anti-competitive practices and predatory pricing would make it impossible for anyone to do so in the real world of business. Fortunately for City and those other clubs such laws don’t seem to apply in football, not yet anyway, but that is what has been done. It’s fine building the academy (new academies cost money to run and will add to your cost base initially) and other revenue generating assets but you’re still going to have to sell your product at a price that covers your expenses and/or reduce your expenses so that they meet the revenues you can generate. The defensive claim that Arsenal’s owners are taking money out is not in anyway true. At this stage it is all about us increasing commercial revenues which we’ve some scope to do.

  • Armin

    Sadly I don’t see way FFP get in to the life. I believe it was stillbirth from very beginning. Teams who don’t go along with FFP are as well teams who brings most money to UEFA, or at least brings a lot.
    UEFA and Champions League are hostages of rich clubs. They are well aware CL without Real and Barca would be less attractive, and less interesting to sponsors. Thus I believe UEFA will keep FFP in drawer for a very long time. And probably punish some Moldovan, Belarus or Cyprian club just as proof they are working on it. Wish if I am wrong, but …

  • WalterBroeckx

    M18CTID,
    Can you point in our accounts where the owner takes money out of the club?
    Would this be a libel case if you are wrong?

  • Amos

    M18CTID I get what City are now doing and I think ADUG seem more honest about where they want to go than many of the other clubs. I hope they see it through but it’s going to be tough to put those 18 and 20 year olds from the academy into the first team knowing, as we’ve found, that they’re 2 or 3 years away from the level we would want and it could cost you points. There’s bound to be pressure from part of your fan base for Mansour to spend a few more tens of millions. It will be tougher but the competition should be more level. In the meantime at least your lot, this season anyway, are playing football that’s brilliant to watch so I’m a little more forgiving and hopeful that football will become a little fairer in time.

  • ARSENAL 13

    well M18CTID, it is important where the money comes from. Every business small or big has to present their financial statement/ balance sheet. It is here where we get to see the ins and outs (money). You just cant say it doesnt matter where it came from.

  • M18CTID

    Walter, don’t you have shareholders on your board of directors that take out dividends? If I’m wrong then I’ll hold my hands up but what I said would be more akin to an incorrect statement and wouldn’t come close to being as much of a libel case as, to take a (oough cough) completely random example and this isn’t aimed at anyone in particular, accusing referees of being bent 😉

  • M18CTID

    You’re completely missing my point ARSENAL 13. Either that or you’re blatantly wumming. We all know where the money is coming from and we all know that it will be fully accounted for in the club’s financial report.

  • Ronnie Lott

    I understand…but last night most of you were calling me a TROLL, just coz my expressed opinion varied from the rest. PLUS i was verbally abused and I can’t recall you or any other poster offering a salp on the wrists to them?
    double standards.

  • Amos

    Just as a point of issue headline transfer fee figures of player sales and player purchases have little direct relevance to FFP. In accounting terms a receipt of £10m for a player may be a loss if it doesn’t discharge all the contractual liabilities (or a profit if it exceeds them) but you can’t set that whole sum against future player purchases as it will only show as a profit or loss in player trading. Similarly an agreed purchase transfer fee of say £40m isn’t a cost in accounting terms it’s an intangible asset which is written down over the period of the contract. In terms of FFP it is possible (if you have invested wisely) to sell a player below the headline cost and show a profit. Buy a player for £40m and sell him after 2 seasons for £30m and you’ll show a profit on player trading of £10m having written the intangible asset down by £20m over the two previous seasons. When it comes to FFP there’s little point in focussing on headline transfer fees – it simply doesn’t tell you enough.

  • Quite possibly double standards, Ronnie, but you are arguing against the whole approach of this web site. Many sites would never allow you to do this at all. Untold is more liberal, but the reality is that if you want to be on Untold and argue against the whole approach of the site you are going to have to be a lot more polite than the people who are here supporting our point of view.

    As you know there are thousands of site that are anti-Wengerian anti-board, and anti-many of our players. You can go there and express your views and no one will mind.

    If you want to survive here, you have to be polite and you have to put forward evidence or supporting material rather than just saying that a particular player is no good.

  • M18CTID

    Of course Amos. It isn’t like a whole load of mini-Messis are going to sprout up out of the East Manchester ground overnight. It will take years to implement an academy set-up that will see a strong representation in our first team but if it proves one thing then it’s that the owner is serious about adhering to the FFP regulations.

    FFP may well level the playing field but I can’t see it doing anything but cement the place of the haves and have-nots. In any case, football has never been totally fair – for as long as it’s been a professional sport there have been rich and not so rich owners of clubs. If ADUG had bought Everton or Newcastle or Arsenal (the three clubs that they reportedly looked at as well as City) instead of City then I wouldn’t have begrudged them in any way whatsoever.

    Appreciate the kind words about our football and one thing about Wenger above all else is that he encourages his teams to play attractive football. Having said that, it was Michael Thomas and George Graham’s so-called “boring boring Arsenal” that gave me my favourite non-City footballing moment back in May 1989.

  • Just to clarify libel law in the UK – it changed radically at the start of 2014, and we (those of us that write for a living) are still trying to understand it.

    But basically under the new law, as I read it, the person who feels something bad has been written about him, has to show not only that the written statement is untrue, but also that it has done his reputation serious harm.

    So if I were to write about a footballer and say he is one who has often been accused for cheating on his wife, “a man who cheats on his wife” he could sue me for libel. Previously I would have to show the evidence that he had cheated, and if I could not, I would lose. But now, I think, although I would still have to do that, the player would have to show that the allegation actually harmed him. If I could show it was a commonplace accusation and lots of people thought it true, he would not win.

    I should also point out that “creative accounting” does not mean lying, nor breaking the financial law of the UK, it means presenting figures in a way that is unusual but still legitimate.

    I tried some creative accounting when I was employed by Arsenal to write a page in the programme for each match, one season, by claiming the cost of my season ticket as an “expense”. It was too creative an idea however, and I was told that since I would have gone to the games anyway, I could not make the claim.

  • M18CTID

    Thanks for the clarification. I will add that when I posted that it was done partly with tongue wedged in cheek. Even if I believed it to be libellous, I have better things to do than waste my time reporting Arsenal fans that I don’t agree with. That would be petty in the extreme, although I still maintain that you talk a lot of tosh when it comes to MCFC ;)I will add, however, that your season-ticket story shows you do possess a sense of humour.

  • Ronnie Lott

    okay tony,

    Ronnie

  • Mike

    @M18CITD

    I followed this whole debate with great amusement until your comment, “why the hell do you think Manchester City Council is wholly in favour of it?) which in turn will make it the kind of self-sustaining model that some of you Gooners are only too quick to pontificate about (I say some Gooners as there are plenty that don’t get involved in such pointless moralistic bickering).”

    This comment can be taken one of two ways; (a) either you think morals are of no value i.e. you see moralism as pointeless bickering (and subsquently your attempt at legitimising the Man City model); or (b) you accept the morality of Arsenal’s model and our so-called moral “pontification” in which case you must accept ARSENAL 13’s point that, “we have learned a lesson or two from our history and are doing very thing necessary to not repeat the same”….which also seems to counter your own claims of morality. The idea that many years ago one person may have done wrong legitimises the continuance of said wrong doing is perverse logic.

    One also wonders what your argument might be if, in a few years time, the other 19 EPL clubs had been acquired by benefactors that were outspending your benefactors…..

  • M18CTID

    That’s a point I alluded to earlier Amos – some people are quick to jump on our net spend in the current financial year and arrive at the conclusion that we’re riding roughshod over FFP but when the cost of these players and wages is amortised over the length of their contracts, coupled with removing high earners (Tevez being the main one) from our books then it’s entirely conceivable as to why we’ve spent £80m-£90m net without it jeopardising our chances of meeting FFP. Of course, this doesn’t mean that we can (or will) spend that kind of money net every season from now on. Firstly, FFP won’t allow for it and secondly, with the squad we have now it won’t be necessary, so what we’ll see is a more moderate net spend each season and much less player churn.

  • M18CTID

    Mike, it’s none of my business how other football clubs are run – over the past 150 years or so prior to FFP, there has been nothing set in stone as to the right or wrong way to run a football club. I’m only pointing out what Arsenal have done in the past in terms of benefitting from investment to highlight the hypocrisy of some of your fans when criticising City’s owner for daring to invest money in the club. Either way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a wealthy benefactor investing his money in a club in order for that club to grow. It happens in every other business so why not football?

    I’ve made this point before but I’ll make it again – if Sheikh Mansour had invested his money in another club instead of ours then I wouldn’t have had any issue whatsoever with it so my argument would be no different to what it is now.

  • Georgaki-Pyrovolitis

    M18CTID at 1:02 pm

    Would you be as thankful for the investment in your football club had the investor been Hitler?

  • M18CTID

    What kind of question is that? I could easily turn that question around and ask you the same re the investment of Norris, the Hill-Wood family, and Fiszman.

  • M18CTID

    Besides, Hitler has been dead for nearly 70 years so it’s irrelevant to bring him up. On the other hand, Osama bin Laden was allegedly an Arsenal fan who attended some games at Highbury in the 1990’s. Are you happy with that?

  • Georgaki-Pyrovolitis

    M18CTID at 2:10 pm

    Er, let me give you a hint….think of a load of dictators. There is spectrum of evil they have visited on the human race ranging from benign at one end to the Hitler/Stalin category at the other. Unfortunately, there are too many dictators around today and they are investing the money of the people the oppress in a range of high profile assets in the west to re-brand their image….get it?

  • M18CTID

    Georgaki-Pyrovolitis

    Ok, I’ve got you now. Which is rather a bizarre viewpoint coming from an Arsenal fan when you consider your main sponsor is the official airline of the Dubai government. Now perhaps you can explain to us all the difference between the ruling government of Dubai and the ruling government of Abu Dhabi when it comes to “oppressing” people because as far as I can see, there isn’t one.

    I guess your comment is what is known in football as an own goal.

  • Georgaki-Pyrovolitis

    M18CTID at 2:39 pm

    You are correct, it is an own goal, but one I was expecting you to raise. I wish we had nothing to do with those dictators and the ill-gotten funds they are splashing around. You see I would be thoroughly disappointed and ashamed if Arsenal were taken over by Usmanov. I would consider that a massive own goal for the club. For what its worth. at least, the size of the sponsorship deal is within the range that does not come close to violating FFP.

  • Georgaki-Pyrovolitis

    And I would not be happy with a sign displayed at the Grove which reads anything like ‘London Thanks Usmanov’.

  • Prestwich_Blue

    Let’s get something right aqmong all the hysteria. This appeal can only happen is a club is sanctioned and agrees a plea bargain with UEFA after a sanction is imposed. To have a sanction imposed the club would have had to fail the FFP test in such a way that a sanction was deemed appropriate. It is highly unlikely that UEFA will apply any serious sanctions in the first year, as long as they have some assurance that the club is likely to comply with FFP in the near future.

    I have little doubt they will choose to audit City’s FFP submission and have equally little doubt that it will be OK. Although our aggregate, FFP-adjusted losses are outside the €45m required, the transitional relief for wages paid on contracts signed prior to June 2010 (which is £80m in City’s case) will see us escape any sanction because that’s what it says in Annex XI of the FFP regulations. So there are unlikely to be any sanctions this year and hence no plea bargain.

    And in any case, City will break-even in the current financial year largely due to the additional revenue from BT Sport and also to other commercial deals signed. From then on significant additional revenue will come from the stadium expansion and, ultimately, from development of the land around the stadium. This will include a world-class leisure attraction as well as other commercial and leisure developments.

    Amos is quite right that we will not be maintaining the same scale of spending but one of the reasons we’ve had to do that level of spending over the last few years is to ensure we met FFP when it came in. Also in the next 4 or 5 years, we should be seeing the first of the Academy graduates developed under the new approach under Patrick Vieira’s leadership hitting the first team squad. A lot of that approach has been done based on your model.

  • Brickfields Gunners

    Golfing With Cows

    A man staggers into an emergency room with two black eyes and a five iron wrapped tightly around his throat.

    Naturally the doctor asks him what happened. “Well, it was like this,” said the man. “I was having a quiet round of golf with my wife when she sliced her ball into a pasture of cows.

    “We went to look for it and while I was rooting around, I noticed one of the cows had something white at its rear end.

    “I walked over and lifted up the tail and sure enough, there was my wife’s golf ball — stuck right in the middle of the cow’s butt. That’s when I made my mistake.”

    “What did you do?” asks the doctor.

    “Well, I lifted the tail and yelled to my wife, ‘Hey, this looks like yours!'”

  • M18CTID

    Georgaki-Pyrovolitis

    It was an own goal of monumental proportions and I’d expect an Arsenal fan of all people to not be criticising the origin of City’s money, not just because of the Emirates deal but also because you’ve happily taken the thick end of £70 million of City’s (and by extension, our owner’s) money in exchange for 4 of your players since 2009. As for Usmanov, well plenty of Arsenal fans would be happy to take his money. Obviously, in your world that makes you a better person than them (and me) but at least we’re not guilty of the glaring hypocrisy you displayed in your previous post.

  • Georgaki-Pyrovolitis

    I’m not guilty of hypocrisy. I’ve always held these views and they apply to Arsenal as much as they do Man City, Chelsea, PSG, Monaco etc…, Football is not exempt from the corruption that I see everywhere…I just don’t want to celebrate in knowledge that there are innocent people suffering so that I might win bragging rights down the pub….

  • Ugandan Goon

    @georgarki,M18CT1D,
    Hi Chaps, There is an absolute difference between the emirates airline,one of the world’s fastest growing airline and the private wealth of a corrupt monarch, shades of grey admittedly.
    how about a bit of this to lighten the mood:
    http://thesunshineroom.com/2013/05/30/bullshit-rodeo/

  • WalterBroeckx

    M18CTID,
    NO THE OWNERS DON’T TAKE DIVIDENDS OUT OF ARSENAL!

    Maybe that should make it clear.

  • WalterBroeckx

    M18CTID,
    And the difference between Arsenal – Emirates and MC – Etihad is that Emirates doesn’t own Arsenal. They are two different companies one with owners Kroenke – Usmanov (major shareholders) and whoever is the boss of Emirates.
    I think the owners of Etihad and MC are roughly the same persons (or family/country)

    If you can’t understand that difference…

  • AL

    M18CTID, seems the anticipated deluge of this site by your blue brethren to blow Tony’s article to smithereens hasn’t quite gone according to plan 🙂

  • Mick

    I have heard it suggested that the purchase by Man City owners of clubs in USA and Australia is to facilitate favourable and legal (as far as FFP is concerned) avenues for said owners to manouver cash into Man City itself via various surreptitious inter club deals and thus circumvent the FFP rules. Could that be correct, would anyone be that cunning and devious?
    I don’t know, it’s just what I read somewhere.

  • OMGArsenal

    This debate between Gooners and M18CTId is amusing, intriguing and at times monotonous but the real issues here are as follows:

    1)Regardless of the Club, will EUFA apply the FFP equitably and stringently or will they waffle like they do in so many other issues?

    2)City and the other owner-sponsored Clubs are businesses first and sports entertainment organizations second. In City’s case, as in Chelsea’s, the owners aren’t going to make a profit anytime soon but that isn’t illegal. Kroenke and the shareholders aren’t making profits yet, as neither him, the Board or Usmanov take out dividends….but they can and perhaps one day they will.

    3)IF the FFP regulations are applied firmly, will City,Chelsea, PSG, Monaco and others pass this inspection? Too early to tell but few understand or have a thorough grasp of said rules (which I have read completely and can’t figure them out either)other than lawyers…..therein lies the rub, as it will be decided in courts across Europe I am sure.

    4)City, Chelsea, PSG,Monaco etc. chose one model, United chose another, Real and Barca chose another and Arsenal have their own model. That is not an issue here, but the crucial question is whether any one of these models is superior in the long run and the best model for Football in general?

    5)There is another elephant in the room (already filled to the brim with our pachyderm friends) and that is the tax implication facing some French,Spanish and Greek Clubs as their respective nations begin to tighten the screws on corporate tax evaders, thanks to the EU’s gradual loss of patience with their poorer members failing economies.

    6)UA has spent an enormous amount of time reviewing officiating in the EPL and has come to the conclusion that something isn’t right. Other Club’s supporters are beginning to raise the same questions. If MC18CTID believes there isn’t any conspiracy or problems with officials in the EPL, that’s fine with me but UA’s claims are supported with an enormously detailed, rational and carefully evaluated research done by a team of actual referees, so unless he can provide contrary evidence, UA’s contentions remain uncontested….but still unproven.

    Mt predictions for today’s game are that City will spank Chelsea after the Chavs try unsuccessfully to park the elephant and drag the game into a level of dullness never seen before….a la Mourinho!

  • Bahrain center for Human Rights received Professor Thorolf Rafto Memorial Prize to international peace and human rights activists. The first winner was J. Hajek 1987.

  • Gonnerjoe

    AL
    It’s hard to argue against some simple facts man city and chelsea have spent billions of pounds on players and wages. These clubs could not afford to spend on their football earnings look at Leeds.
    Also the prices Arsenal fans pay for season tickets and match day tickets is partly down to the fact they now have to compete with teams that have extorted wages and the price of players.

  • bjtgooner

    @Brickfields

    Bad news : – http://www.theage.com.au/world/rats-could-evolve-to-the-size-of-sheep-scientist-claims-20140204-hvb1o.html

    Just imagine the size of the sewers needed to accommodate them!

  • Brickfields Gunners

    @ Ugandan Goon – those link were awesome ! Many thanks .

  • Pete

    @M18CTID

    To comment on a couple of your assertions:

    1. I don’t think any Arsenal owners/directors have either ploughed money in or taken out (both accusations were made in different comments) in living memory. The club has run on a self-sustaining basis for many decades.

    2. How do your FFP calculations account for the Etihad sponsorship? I had heard that this was way, way beyond the expected market level and therefore may be partially disallowed? Although I could be wrong here.

    3. Chelsea have been on the “verge” of breaking even ever since Abramovitch took over 10 years ago. It hasn’t happened yet, other than due to a revenue blip when they won the CL. It is conceivable they are changing their approach now with the sale of Mata but who knows? But the point is, why would Man City be different? Their commercial revenues are not that impressive if sponsorships from connected companies are at market value – and increased TV revenues will benefit everyone so no great comparative advantage.

    4. Chelsea have also been investing heavily in their academy. In 10 years it is hard to think of a single player that has come through. Why will Man City be any different?

  • Brickfields Gunners

    @ bjgooner – Don’t fret too much , those cannibal rats are crossing the channel as we speak !
    I’ve seen rats here the size of a small cat at some eateries ! The cats just keep out of their way !
    I’ll try to get a clip and put it up someday .

  • Shakabula Gooner

    It’s so much more refreshing reading from M18CTID and following the string of the efforts to get the point of view of Arsenal and of the Untold blog across than reading from AAA. At least M18CTID is an avowed ManCity fan doing exactly what Untold is about…supporting City in all its ramifications.
    Respect to you, City fan but you can only enjoy the jousting here but can get no converts.

  • AL

    Gonnerjoe
    Absolutely. And spot on regarding our ticket prices.

  • TJ

    Objectively, what is so different about what City have done than how 20th century Arsenal came about when you get down to it?

    When Sir Henry Norris took over Woolwich Arsenal in 1910, from his personal wealth he paid off the clubs significant debts, paid for the building of Highbury stadium, appointed Herbert Chapman, backed him financially and was eventually banned from football for life while at Arsenal because of illegal payments to players. His finances led to one of Arsenals most successful eras.

    I know he didn’t spend a billion but its all relative.

  • nicky

    @Gonnerjoe,
    You make a very valid point. One day the sugar daddies bank rolling noisey Citeh, Chelski and the like will withdraw in order to protect their loot.
    Then, we self-sustaining clubs will have to clear up the mess.

  • TJ,

    Spoken like a true Gooner. I love how you are always on the opposite side whenever it comes to Arsenal. Going by your logic, the US should not do anything about human trafficking because America once engaged in slave trade.

    You are an inspiration to us all!

  • Percy

    @M18CTID
    Even allowing for the tribal nature of this football business we love, your financial rantings and excuses for your club are seriously misdirected. FFP is about a lot more than than net transfer dealings.If you disagree with FFP then OK, but it’s here and most believe it’s a step forward. If we consider just a couple of approximate numbers from your figures it is clear that the City salary bill alone is close to 90.0% of turnover. And there would be questions as to how some of that turnover ranked as qualifying under FFP rules – so there are some undoubted questions to answer, but most of us believe, equally undoubtedly, that Mons. Platini has all the answers, so no need to worry yourself on that score.
    When it comes to The Arsenal your financial nous is also somewhat lacking. This club has never paid a dividend to shareholders, making your claims of money going out as fatuous as most of your contribution. Just like the shrill claims of Danny Fiszman’s, Hill-Wood’s, Kroenke’s..et al..investments. Buying issued shares in a company does not equate to investing capital – which is what Usmanov wants to do but has been knocked back by the board. That money for the share purchase simply passes to the existing shre owner. The only income at The Arsenal has always been from football related commercial activities – hence self-sustaining. The stadium build was financed by borrowings, which are being repaid fron that same source.
    It would pay to get your facts right before getting so excited and making so many gaffes.

  • WalterBroeckx

    I thought that Norris was banned for life from football because he pocketed the money from the sale of the players bus. But I could be wrong on this. Over to you historians

  • TJ

    Bottomtree

    Obviously in your eagerness to attack my comment you my logic was lost on you. I did not make any comment on the morality or right or wrong of any situation, I just made the observation Arsenal once did something similar, did they not?

    Of course I am not a true Gooner like you- who must be on Chapter 7 by now of the instruction manual of how to be an armchair Arsenal fan

  • bjtgooner

    @TJ

    Are you the same TJ that tried to lecture me about name calling?

    “TJ
    November 27, 2013 at 10:38 pm

    bjtgooner

    I see where you are coming from if that is your belief, but name calling is just so childish when you have the IQ to demolish his arguments by using your brain.”

    This was relevant to a certain sewer rat.

    So why are you now resorting to name calling?

  • AL

    Bootoomee 5:18
    Well said. Funny how a certain set of fans are almost always going to go against the majority here, regardless of the topic under discussion. It might that Arsenal were denied a blatant penalty(like Giroud’s yesterday), you can bet on it that set of fans will come out arguing that the ref got it right because the letter of the law says….. I mean technically you can argue against almost any decision, but its telling that these fans will always argue against anything seemingly favouring Arsenal. I just don’t get it.

  • AL

    meant to say ‘It might be that Arsenal were denied…’

  • Percy

    @TJ
    Without wishing to make any comment on morality grounds or right or wrongs, am I right in inferring that you see no difference at all between our self-made Sarf London house builder and the hereditary ruling family of one of the seven Emirates which has a population smaller than Greater Manchester?

  • TJ,

    Unless you are actually involved in running the team one way or another, we are all arm-chair fans. Unlike you though, I am always supporting my team. I don’t gang up with rival fans to undermine its history.

    I forgive you for being a hypocrite, you know with the name calling and all 🙂

  • AL

    Was just about to post this when ivanovic scored. Chelsea are not parking the bus at City, surely that’s a compliment to Arsenal? 🙂

  • AL

    Ok, not entirely true, the not the parking the bus thing. But they’re certainly coming out more.

  • Fair play to Chelsea but they are making city look so ordinary. The 1-0 deficit flatters Man City. It could have been more.

  • AL

    Yes, Chelsea should be winning by more here. Strangely, both sides missed some gilt edged chances.

  • Ray from Norfolk, Virginia

    It looks like Mike Dean did not get his sheikh from check mansur.
    I meant Mike Dean did not get his check from sheikh mansur.

  • Haha M18CTID are you a stand up comedian who doesn’t say a word?

  • Ray from Norfolk, Virginia

    UBL spotted at the Emirates yesterday.
    He looks like a zombie at this time.
    For more details, look up Zombinladen.
    That movie won 14 oscars.

  • Well gives a 2 point cushion then. Wonder if the poodits will say are man shitty losing it? can they hold on to win the league now that chavski bus scored a goal?

  • Ray from Norfolk, Virginia

    Maureen had an orgasm.

  • Bootoome did you hear maureentheho say how important rest was for this match? if we has some rest we would have destroyed man shitty last time.

  • But you are right ray from Norfolk no dodgy decisions from the ref to help man shityy

  • Ray from Norfolk, Virginia

    AW eluded to how Aguero’s absence may be important.
    He forgot to mention that Nasri’s absence was equally crucial.

  • Arsenal might not have scored a hundred goal this season but we did not lose at home to Chelsea.

    Arsenal have now topped the league for 18 out of 24 games.

  • bjtgooner

    Toure, who normally dishes out a fair bit of thuggery during a match seemed to be “taken out” by a couple of heavy tackles/fouls early in the first half & was ineffective in his secondary (footballing) role thereafter. Part of the Maureen tactic?

  • Andrew Crawshaw

    All we need to do at the weekend is get another three points on the board.

    COYG

  • Va Cong,

    Of course. But no one mentions the fact that we played City away at 12.45am on Saturday after playing up to 9.35pm against Napoli away in Naples the previous Wednesday evening. Lack of sufficient rest played a big part in our loss in that game. I can’t recall the last time Arsenal was that lethargic 15 minutes to the end of the game.

    And before anyone starts over-praising Chelsea, let’s remember that they couldn’t beat West Ham at home. It’s a how a league works. Win some. Draw some. Lose some.

    All in all, Arsenal remains the most consistent team in the league.

  • Yassin

    Come on Arsenal players, see how City can attack can be stoped, and we are the best defense in london, Bring the deathrun1 as Arseblog name it. Behind the team in joy and sorrow….
    Please Gooners remind me, who is top of the league? I cant remember that team which dont deserve that place cause they didnt buy in Winter transfer Window…. 😀
    Come on Gooners, man up and support, we are going to fight till death to get this title, and if we dont get it, we will salute this team for what they did all season

  • Ray from Norfolk, Virginia

    What happened to MCHAMMER?
    Looking into legal action against $ity underachieving players?
    Or crying after his team luckily lost by one goal only?
    The tactics were to be the aggressor with Yaya, not the other way around.
    It paid: they did not park the bus and they outdid Pellegrini.

  • Yassin

    @bjtgooner,
    What? What did u say up there? Did u say Toure couldnt play his game cause he was tackled heavily? Did u say City could have got somethinh if they didnt have to go through that challenges? Maybe, or matbe our players should be protected to see the best football ever played…. Am talking to u, but pointing at others who wont be seen here for a while, see they are crying cause the team they support are top of the league.

    When is Ramsey coming back? Am missing watching him, and missing Walter/Tony articles of told u so when he plays a great game….

  • marcus

    @VA Cong
    “But you are right ray from Norfolk no dodgy decisions from the ref to help man shityy”

    Er, not entirely. Toure is half Michael Laudrup half Souness. He really does clatter around in the midfield, and gets away with an awful lot. Could easily have had two yellows tonight; one for raking Willian’s backside, one for another foul on Willian. (Probably some other challenges I’ve not mentioned)

    Dean gave MC a nice free kick for the Toure foul on Willian… and Silva nearly scored…

    Nastasic plain as daylight red. Not given. Willian pulled down in an attack, foul given to MC..

    Just another mediocre day at the office for EPL refs…..although the free-kick decision which Silva nearly converted would have given a very ugly result.

  • sperez

    City can be stopped but Arsenal team is under a clueless tactician. Mourinho is not stupid to leave acres of space for City to exploit.
    And Wenger also f*cked up in the two past transfer windows. A striker and some athleticism in the midfield were a must but Wenger once again refused to address these issues.
    Arsenal already has a crab in Arteta who is easily bullied off the ball but Wenger was not happy enough and brought an ancient turtle to make the midfield more letargic. Kallstrom. LOL! A slow player who can’t deal with pressing. Many thanks Wenger!!!
    In a league renown for its physical intensity, the lack of athleticism cannot be ignored.
    …Usmanov is the devil…Once again the hollier than thou attitude from some fans. I understand some people having reservations about Usmanov because he can invest for some years get bored and f*ck off. Long-term stability concern.
    However, Arsenal is a football club and not a paragon of virtue.
    Fiszman made a lot of money from conflict diamonds( do you know how horrible and dirty this thing is ?) and then invested in the club.
    So, taking this moral high ground is pretty pathetic.

  • Ray from Norfolk, Virginia

    I take the moral high ground. In a very humble way.
    I do not pretend to know more than a Premiership manager.
    Not even Sam the bus Allardyce; he drew at Stanford Bridge.

  • Ugandan Goon

    @sperez,
    I think you might underestimate the morality of the Arsenal Boardroom somewhat, Usmanov ain’t one of them and they ain’t letting him in, neither for that matter was Kroenke,he barged in with his cash and outlived most of what he found there. These old school bankers and diamond dealers are not impressed by a violent thug like Usmanov or the al -thani megalomaniacs, they have on their side, good old fashioned business sense, no flim flam. Sustainable growth is often bandied about with no proof of sustainability. Most of us have lived through the stadium move and seen people promise and actually make things happen, the playing side has been patchy but i am willing to bet before the money came, it was a sight better than you could have hoped for with Citeh.
    Oh, and a word on Arteta, He was our best performer all round yesterday, google the stats for yourself, if you don’t believe me. Panic buy?
    Talking of lethargic midfields, what good was your mobility against the chelsea bus? i won’t rub it in but clearly there is more to football than you know.

    ……So, taking this moral high ground is pretty pathetic.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Moral high ground sperez…?
    Ok referring to your post 8/12/13@7.32
    http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/archives/32951#comment-756182
    You bought this issues up, not sure if you have any connections to the area, but as yet, any apologies for the deaths inefficiencies and general ineptitude from the,mayor or Manaus….issues that shame his patch?

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/dec/17/world-cup-stadium-manaus-zero-safety-builders-arena-amazonia

    Back to football, Jose was so scared of us, he parked the bus, he did no such thing against city….knowing,the way he plays, a bit of a respect to us, would you not agree,

  • Ugandan Goon

    oops, seem to have my middle eastern absolute monarchies muddled, for al thani read mansour, silly me.

  • Florian

    sp*r*z, I take it you know how horrible and dirty making money from conflict diamonds is.

  • Tom

    Sperez

    Yes , City can be stopped and Mourinho is an accomplished tactician, no arguing that ,but what also helps in getting results against top opposition ,is a bit of luck. I think it’s safe to say that if it wasn’t for bad luck , Arsenal wouldn’t have any.

    Case in point – In our three fixtures against the so called other big three, we lost by a goal at Old Trafford against a full strength Man U while missing key players due to flu and having to play some players who still had it.
    The RVP goal was somewhat of a lucky variety to boot – a shoulder header.

    At City ,we played on two day’s rest against their first eleven and found ourselves on the wrong end of some “unlucky” calls.

    Against Chelsea we got a draw even though we didn’t have Kos . Chelsea didn’t miss anybody and we probably should’ve had a penalty for a trip on Walcott .

    Now on to Chelsea if you don’t mind.
    They beat City at the Bridge on a freak goal when Heart decided to go on a walk about.
    They just beat them again by one goal while City were without their best three players( arguably) in Fernandinho, Aguero and Nasri.
    Again , Chelsea didn’t miss anybody .

    They parked the bus and got a result at OT , beat Man U again at the Bridge ,with two out of three goals being very lucky. While Man U were without their two best players in Roo and RVP.

    Man City beat United 4-1 when United didn’t have RVP .

    We are getting ready to play United soon and again it looks like they will be at full strength plus Mata , while we will miss Walcott , Ramsey and maybe some others as well and if we fail to win , you will promptly remind us again that Mourinho beat them at the Bridge while Wenger couldn’t do the same at the Ems.

    Now to the part where I agree with you somewhat.
    The January TW was a farce of the highest standard. To get a player on loan ,who’s supposed to step in for injured players but is himself injured ,is inexplicable.
    We’ve got four new players in the Summer and January TW combine and two of them might not play for us this season at all, and we are having the worst injury crisis in years.

    The only thing worse than getting an injured player to alleviate our injury problems was probably the explanation Wenger gave for getting him.

  • Percy

    @sperez,”Fiszman made a lot of money from conflict diamonds( do you know how horrible and dirty this thing is ?) and then invested in the club.
    So, taking this moral high ground is pretty pathetic.”

    That’s a highly charged assertion; one I’ve never heard levelled before and most likely an unwarranted evil remark. Would you care to quote any sources?
    Meanwhile check out this:
    https://www.dtcsightholder.com/en/Sightholder-directory11/Star-Diamond-Group/

  • “They just beat them again by one goal while City were without their best three players( arguably) in Fernandinho, Aguero and Nasri.”

    Im sorry , werent they supposed to win all trophies because they have the best squad in all the universe according to pundits. how come losing 3 first team players is affecting them, is that because they didnt have the best squad before ??? or may be they didnt have more than one first team player lost to injury at the same time before ???

    Dont get me wrong, the squad they have is mouthwatering. But like all teams if you loose 3 players at the same time from ur first team you will be found out against better opposition.. kinda like arsenal were when we dont have everyone fit and firing .. which is almost all the time. Now someone put an end to this they have the best squad media babling.

  • highamsparkgunner

    @M18CTID

    http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/latest-news.php/latest-news/man-city-release-controversial-accounts

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it

    @sperez were Hull any good on Saturday apparently they should have won

  • elkieno

    Hi untolders it has been a while since i posted, but why oh why are you regulars still arguing with sperez, he is not an arsenal fan at all, he probably supports Spurs as his name suggests either way he is not a fan…
    He is a gee up that thrives on getting people riled up so just ignore him and let the baby have his bottle…
    He is no Gooner like us…
    COYG!

  • Pete

    Watching last night’s game gives me great hope for the run in…

  • Brickfields Gunners

    Lost in translation …..

    On a hot day, an AAAA stopped at the tavern for a cold beer, leaving his hound dog tied to a parking meter in front of the joint.

    One beer led to another, and soon a cop came in and said, “Is that your dog outside?”

    “Sure is.”, said the AAAA.

    “Well, I want you to know that she’s in heat”, said the cop.

    “No she ain’t. I tied her in the shade”.

    “No, no! I mean she needs to be bred.”

    “That’s stupid. How can a dog be a loaf of bread?”

    The exasperated cop said, “I mean she needs to be f**ked!”

    “Oh. Well go ahead and F**K her. I always wanted a police dog.

  • M18CTID

    Percy, it’s already been pointed out by one of your own that Norris invested money in the club so to claim that he didn’t is utterly incorrect. Same goes for Samuel Hill-Wood. Even the Arsenal website The Clock End states that he offered “firm financial stability” when Norris’s crooked activities were finally exposed. As for Danny Fiszman, are you telling me that Tony Adams is a liar?

    Your claim that Arsenal FC has always been a self-sustaining club and has never, at any point in it’s history, had to rely on investment from individuals in order to help grow the club is delusional in the extreme not to mention a downright insult to the intelligence of those of us that know otherwise. You see, it’s the downright hypocrisy of sanctimonious clowns like you that like to bang on about doing things the “right way” that grates on us City fans when we all know that wasn’t always the case at Arsenal and no amount of airbrushing of your history can ever change that.

    As for FFP, I’m not on here to voice my opposition to it – I’m here to point out that City are well on our way to complying with the regs and any talk of clubs supposedly “ganging up” to get us kicked out of Europe is nothing more than hot air so you can stop getting all giddy about it because believe you me, no one puts our club in a corner anymore. Face facts – MCFC is going nowhere and you’re just going to have to accept that we’ve gatecrashed your cosy little G14 cartel before the drawbridge was pulled up.

  • M18CTID

    highamsparkgooner

    Congratulations on posting a link to a website run by someone that, a few weeks ago, was totally demolished by some of our fans (mainly Prestwich Blue who has posted on this thread) for completely and utterly failing to grasp some of the basics of the FFP regs. If you want to hang on his every word, more fool you.

  • Percy

    @elkieno
    You’re right of course, but that malicious personal claim has to be challenged and not allowed any purchase. It is so far beyond the pale he needs moderating.

  • Percy

    @M18CTID
    Now you’re just getting silly. Had a bad night dreaming about Maureen? Learn to read what is posted and don’t rely on your preconceived prejudices before baying at the blue moon. I am financially aware enough to understand that a business issues shares to raise capital and at some stage that happened with The Arsenal and that money went into the club. But that isn’t what we are talking about here and your failure to grasp even this most fundamental commercial point and somehow think that it justifies your skewed beliefs about FFP, how that relates to the financing of City and confusing share trading in The Arsenal with providing capital are laughable.
    You’ll have to do a whole lot better than positing that providing stability equates to investing capital – because it just didn’t happen, from any of those names I mentioned. It’s true that they bought into the stock of The Arsenal and some of them made a lot of money when they sold those shares on. But, trust me, they didn’t put money into the club and they didn’t take any money out of the club.

  • Percy

    @M18CTID
    On the issue of being a sanctimonius clown I would urge you to read my post more closely. I don’t think there is much in there at all on the subject of bad-mouthing City, rather a couple of points about the FFP rules and how/if they will be applied and correcting your lack of knowledge on the history The Arsenal. As for insulting your intelligence, well, that’s an oxymoron. So you’re wrong again.

  • M18CTID

    Yes, yes Percy – we all believe you. I suggest you actually do some research into the history of your own club before peddling such ill-informed guff. The fact is this – Arsenal, like pretty much every other club in the history of the game, has benefitted from benefactor investment at some point or other in it’s history. Back in the days of jumpers for goalposts, the owner-investor model was how pretty much every single club in England was run. It’s already been pointed out by one of your fellow Gooners that Norris invested his own money in every facet of the club – what part of that don’t you understand? As for Samuel Hill-Wood, well before he got involved in Arsenal he invested £30,000 of his own money into Glossop North End, a football club located a damn sight closer to Manchester than North London ever will be. After bankrolling GNE to such an extent, what the hell makes you think he didn’t invest a single penny of his own money into Arsenal? Do you think he just randomly pitched up at Highbury and blagged his way to the chairmanship for nothing? And what part of the well documented comments of Tony Adams re Danny Fiszman’s cash injection are struggling to come to terms with?

    I could go on but it’s like talking to a brick wall and I’ve spent way too much time on here trying to educate the uneducated clowns such as yourself. You keep kidding yourself that Arsenal FC has never had a financial leg-up courtesy of a rich benefactor and we’ll leave it at that.

  • M18CTID

    Percy, I think it’s fair to say that I know a damn sight more about the history of Arsenal FC than most of the Gooners on here know about Manchester City. I spent half my time on here yesterday correcting some laughably ignorant comments that were posted as fact. I made one error in assuming that Arsenal shareholders take money out of the club (but don’t think the likes of Kroenke won’t do so in future, unless you’re naïve enough to think he’s in it for the love of Arsenal and nothing else) and was happy to hold my hands up when it was pointed out to me. Everything else I posted about investment in your club from various people is correct.

    And THAT is definitely my last post on this topic so feel free to have the last word.

  • Percy

    @M18CTID
    Oh, and by the way, on the subject of being sactimonius and your ‘bent’ comments, don’t think for a moment that we are not aware of 1905, Tom Maley, your board of directors and first team squad who were involved in bribes for throwing matches and illegal payments to players. Maybe that’s where Norris learned his trade?

  • M18CTID

    I admire your knowledge Percy. There’s one big difference though – City were severely punished for those indiscretions and almost went out of business (our manager and chairman banned sine die, plus 17 players ordered to be auctioned off, which several signed for United and formed the spine of their first great side) whereas Arsenal got off scot free for those offences committed by Norris when he presided over your club.

  • Percy

    @M18CTID – “And THAT is definitely my last post on this topic so feel free to have the last word.”

    Ah, the expedient get-out of the chastened poster.

  • Percy

    @M18CTID
    That’s not the big difference at all. The two punishments fitted the crimes – those committed by City were far greater. Stones and glass houses.

  • Percy

    @M18CTID
    And just as an aside, bunging a few quid to the blokes who provided all the entertainment and had their wages capped to ten bob a week by the toffs is no big crime in my book. I’m definitely with those who slipped them a little extra, more power to their elbows. But, throwing matches for Villa – now that’s just not on. Anyway, I’ve got to pop out to Cosco; if you fancy any more I’ll be back later to continue your education.

  • M18CTID

    Wrong Percy – Norris had dirt on McKenna, the chairman of the football league at the time and owner of Liverpool FC, and was therefore able to manoeuvre himself (and Arsenal) into an advantageous position when conning your way into the top flight.

    If you actually think that a few backhanders warrants the punishment dished out to City in 1905 then you’ll also surely agree that someone as bent and corrupt as Norris (and by extension Arsenal FC) should have been similarly punished. Norris might well have eventually gotten his comeuppance but Arsenal didn’t. I’ll also say that in comparison to City in 1905, Arsenal got off incredibly lightly when George Graham was caught taking backhanders.

    But that’s ok – you keep implying that yours is a more perfect football club than ours.

  • M18CTID

    Actually, there’s no evidence that City threw that match against Villa – if anything, it was more of a case of getting Villa to throw the match. Still wrong of course but why would City throw a game against Villa when a win would’ve given us the league title?

    Enjoy Costco – I’ve got to get back to work and frankly I don’t see much point in either of us wasting any more time on what has now amounted to a pointless p*ssing contest.

  • Percy

    @M18CTID
    I’m off, a second pointless day – never mind I understand your frustration. Shame you didn’t have Jones to fashion a ghostly offside.

  • M18CTID

    I guess Chelsea bunged the officials more than we did for a change. Meh, it was a fair result in the end – they got their tactics spot on, closed us down well, and didn’t park the bus despite being widely expected to do so. Onto the next game.

  • Micheal Ram

    M18CTID,

    Oh yeah. Action speaks louder than words. Cause Arsenal construct their training ground from Anelka’s transfer money while Real Madrid sold theirs to buy players, thts why their youth academy went down the drain. N Totenham sold their best player to buy other players. Arsenal build their stadium with common household loan repayment while other clubs go on and on about their new stadium, their new sport complex and blah blah blah in an cheap attempt to get a billionaire buyer. Get it done first because Arsenal already have done it successfully. I wil go and say tht Arsenal are the pioneers of the modern club management and where everyone else just follows. Enuff said.

  • Micheal Ram

    One more thing. Chelsea did play like shit, no attempt to pass the ball properly, just hook it up field like Stoke and Bolton used to do. Clearly took out Toure of the game with rotational fouling. Mournho is the magnet of caveman football. Truly a low IQ football despite spending millions. Credit to Man City where it due.

  • Menace

    FFP!!! Benevolence is not a issue. What is an issue is the directors loan. It is refundable at some point in time. Arsenal had a benevolent Mr Norris not an investing Roman or Arab. If the loans are given as non returnable then there is no issue. No law can stop benevolence because it is a private issue with no financial return.

    The whole system of unfair advantage in football (in my opinion) started early in the late 50s when Littlewoods were the source of Liverpools funding. Then came a few others until Abramovic with obscene amounts and subsequent City specials. The ones that really are obscene are the likes of the Glaziers who have hocked the club to the point where it could easily go bankrupt if this seasons form continues. FFP is one thing, bad business practice is another.

    The issues in Spain are only just bubbling, but when it starts to boil: all hell will break loose. These issues being national financial support for some of the football teams.

    In the mean time Arsenal has to continue playing on a dream surface at the Emirates, coached by Wenger, with a properly run club in true sporting tradition. This has to be done in spite of all the negative press and adverse bias of officials that may or may not be improper.

    Any of you non Arsenal supporters will notice how well Arsenal players respond to officials in recent games. It is all part of Wengers coaching – respect is due to the ‘position’ – not necessarily to the person occupying it.

  • M18CTID

    Micheal Ram

    You make an interesting point but I would dispute that the Arsenal model could work anywhere near as well outside of the general catchment area of London. There are plenty of big clubs in the midlands and north of England but they don’t have the luxury of being able to tap into such an affluent support base and corporate base as any of the big London clubs. City, Everton, Newcastle, Aston Villa, Sunderland, Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Forest, and Wolves are all capable of pulling in crowds of 40,000-60,000 if they’re doing well but there’s not a cat in hell’s chance that any of those clubs could charge the prices that Arsenal do for both ordinary match tickets and corporate hospitality so it’s not possible for say, an extended 60,000 capacity St James’ Park to generate anywhere near as much cash as a 60,000 capacity Emirates Stadium. There’s nothing we can do about that of course – it’s just the nature of the beast – but it’s interesting to note that FFP doesn’t factor in clear regional differences of wealth in each country nor does it factor in the differing tax laws of each country.

  • M18CTID

    Menace

    I think the 2 situations – Norris and Mansour – are very similar (in terms of money being invested to help grow a club) but I’ve already gone on about that at length and no-one’s going to change each other’s mind on that.

    Leaving Arsenal aside, fair play (pardon the pun) for acknowledging that City and Chelsea didn’t start all this. However, I’d say it goes back a lot further than Littlewoods and Liverpool. It may be of interest to you that our more illustrious neighbours have had the begging bowl out on various occasions throughout their history and there are two clear instances of them benefitting from a sugar daddy owner. Firstly, in 1902 when John Henry Davies rescued an ailing Newton Heath from going bankrupt and went on to fund the purchases of key players (many of them from City ironically following the previously mentioned bribes scandal) that led to them winning their first trophies. And secondly, around 30 years later when United were again on the brink of bankruptcy only to be saved by James Gibson who bankrolled them for several years.

    What’s also intriguing about United is that they’ve also relied significantly on City helping them out down the years too. From donating money to them immediately prior to them being saved by Davies in 1902, allowing them the use of our ground after WW2 when Old Trafford had been bombed, to even letting them play their first European home tie at Maine Road because, wait for it, they didn’t have floodlights at Old Trafford back then. However, the most influential piece of help they had off us was when they pleaded for our help in lobbying the football league to get the recently formed Manchester Central FC booted out of the Third Division (North). At the time United were on their arse and struggling in the second division on crowds as low as 4000 whilst Central were pulling in more fans on some occasions even as a non-league club. City were pulling in far bigger crowds than both clubs so weren’t really affected but we obviously had a decent relationship with United and the joint complaint from both clubs did indeed see Central expelled from the league and eventually go out of business. Without City’s help, it’s unlikely that United could’ve gotten Central booted out on their own and therefore it would’ve been United themselves that would’ve been in danger of extinction. With this in mind, it’s always amusing to see the look on the faces of United fans up here when they’re informed that if it wasn’t for City they might not even have a club to support 😉

  • WalterBroeckx

    M18CTID,
    after reading this I blame City for all that is wrong in English football 😉
    Idiots, you fools… what have you done… 😉

  • M18CTID

    Not often I agree with you Walter but I do wonder what our club was doing back then. We unknowingly helped create a monster 😉

  • Percy

    It’s quite instructive, isn’t it, how this subject has exposed the extreme hypersensitivity of our Mancunian friend at the conversion to MiddleEastlands. This started out as a legitimate set of questions on the implications of FFP regulations and in that regard there is a number of genuine doubts that surround City’s compliance. When you see the accounts and the number of Related Party Transactions, Inter-Company Transactions, the Sale of Image Rights and a whole host of obscure numbers and tax arrangements, it raises a raft of questions as to why this is being done. That’s a fact and bears directly on how, will there be some form of ‘handicap’, and even if City will be allowed to compete in Europe. But instead of dealing with the issue our friend sets of on a path of misdirection raising tales of Sir Henry, who actually did nothing that was not going on at every other club to some degree and which all, other than the toffs, would support; well maybe not the bus but at least he was not parking it; quoting wrongdoings when far more embarrassing incidents happened at his own club and confusing himself with the commercial practices of issuing, buying and selling and trading shares. That’s one enormous non sequitur. I’ve always been told that City consider themselves the real and only Manc team and those oiks down the road in Salford are a bunch of imposters. It must be subconsciously really getting under the skin of M18CTID that MiddleEastlands has become the Eighth Emirate and the Manchester Oilers have replaced his beloved City. Understandable. It remains, as it has done since the thirties, for The Arsenal to rise again and see off the pretenders and scallywags;>)

  • M18CTID

    Percy,

    Erm, me sensitive? Don’t think so mate – one thing that annoys me is the ignorance of opposition football fans towards our club and stating things as facts when they’re clearly not. Looking at some of your own comments, the hypersensitive label can be aimed at you. As for excusing Norris’s activities, perhaps you can all enlighten us as to all the other clubs in England that gained a place in the top flight that wasn’t earned on merit. I can’t think of a single one – can you? 😉

    The bottom line is that for all my so-called “sensitivity”, in the grand scheme of things I couldn’t give a monkey’s toss what fans of other clubs think about City but if I see something that clearly isn’t true or that I disagree with or that I deem downright hypocritical then I’ll comment as I see fit. If you knew anything about me, you’d know that on match days I’m as laid back as they come and more than happy to chew the fat with opposition fans as was evidenced on my visit to your gaff last season when I spent a very enjoyable few hours chatting to Arsenal fans over half a dozen or so pints of North London’s finest gnat’s p*ss, oops sorry beer 😉

  • WalterBroeckx

    M18CTID,

    On our history site we have done just that. There have been precedents as in those days it happened more than enough that teams were voted in to a division not on their last league position.

  • M18CTID

    Oh, and Percy – as for the issue you refer to it’s quite simple. UEFA will be the judge of whether City have flouted FFP, not Jose Mourinho (who the author of this article somewhat cringeworthingly sided with), not Arsenal, not Liverpool, and certainly not Tony Attwood or you or me. I never made that point originally but I didn’t feel the need to as I thought the tone of my first post clearly implied that this was classic wumming from Mourinho that the press lapped up. In any case, Prestwich Blue clearly set out the reasons earlier in this thread as to why it’s highly unlikely that City will face a challenge from any club regarding FFP. If I’m not mistaken, not a single poster on here has bothered to acknowledge his post. Not even you which is quite bizarre considering you’re lamenting me for not concentrating on the issue. As such, a cynic would probably conclude that you’re not even particularly interested in the central topic of this thread anyway (otherwise, why haven’t you bothered to take PB on?), and instead would much sooner joust with me.

  • M18CTID

    Examples please Walter, and did anyone (other than Arsenal) finishing as low as 5th in the 2nd division manage to claim a place in the top flight?

  • Percy

    Well then, I refer you to Walter’s previous comment in this regard, but as far as on merit is concerned it’s bleedin’ obvious isn’t it? We’ve been there since 1919 so it’s beyond dispute that it was merited. It’s a no-brainer. Can you name anyone else?
    I largely agree with the situation set out by Prestwich Blue but not his implied acceptance of the verisimilitude of the numbers presented. He approached this from a different angle but if he chooses to ignore the obfuscation employed in the accounts so be it. Why do you think that your accountants need to employ this lack of transparency. It can’t be because there’s nothing to hide. But, then, he didn’t try to say it had any bearing on what happened a hundred years ago in Sarf London.
    And you’ll not get any argument from me about the wankfest over JM, by the way I didn’t see a tactical masterpiece, just a ragged performance from your mids and a mismatch of numbers in the middle. But, he and any other club involved does have a right to appeal any decision made that they don’t agree, It’s in the FFP rules.

  • Percy

    M18CTID, have a look at this:
    http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/archives/33962#comment-770645
    You’ve earned yourself a reputation and over there they reckon you should get the job managing at Swansea. Over here we’re not so sure you could manage the proverbial at Boddingtons.

  • WalterBroeckx

    M18CTID,

    You could start here http://www.blog.woolwicharsenal.co.uk/archives/314

    It tells you a few things about the club you saved… 😉

    Chelsea earlier on was another club that was voted in without even having played I think.
    Even Tottenham was promoted once without being in the places for promotion.

    Such was the way many things were done in those days.

    Was it politics? Sure it was. But trying to say that it was only Arsenal who did it is a bit short sighted.

    Now I am not directly involved in the history site and Tony is out for a few days to look for some sunshine but otherwise he could have given you a list of teams that got voted in to higher leagues without having to play for it on the field.

  • M18CTID

    Regardless of whether you’ve been ever present in the top flight or not, being promoted after finishing 5th in the 2nd tier isn’t what I call merited. The fact is, you were promoted in highly dubious circumstances and that is something that even the most biased of Arsenal fans can’t dispute. When all is said and done, pretty much every club has baggage and I don’t buy this “our club is better than yours” moralistic slant that some fans of all clubs like to perpetuate.

    I think if you were to look at the accounts of many other clubs, you could find all sorts of obscure stuff. 3 years ago our friends across town opted to move the ownership of the club to a company in Delaware, which just happens to be the most secretive financial location in the world.

    I’ll admit to not possessing a huge amount of accountancy knowledge but PB knows his onions on that score and if there was anything that really stank about City’s financial figures he’d be happy to admit it. What I do know is that FFP follows International Accountancy Standard 24 (IAS 24) when determining what does and does not constitute a related party transaction and it’s been explained time and time again to opposition fans that Etihad is not a related party under IAS 24 despite clueless keyboard warriors claiming otherwise. I’ll also point out that last summer City signed second tier sponsorship deals with 5 or 6 companies that aren’t even included in the club’s latest accounts. Of those companies, only one is located in the UAE. Even BT are now sponsors of our City Square fanzone so the notion that we’re overly reliant on sponsorship deals from Abu Dhabi is becoming more and more outdated as time passes.

    And let’s get this straight – it’s simply not true that a club has the right to appeal any decision that they don’t agree with. That can only come about if a club is sanctioned and agrees a plea bargain with UEFA. Read the first paragraph of PB’s post again:

    “Let’s get something right among all the hysteria. This appeal can only happen is a club is sanctioned and agrees a plea bargain with UEFA after a sanction is imposed. To have a sanction imposed the club would have had to fail the FFP test in such a way that a sanction was deemed appropriate. It is highly unlikely that UEFA will apply any serious sanctions in the first year, as long as they have some assurance that the club is likely to comply with FFP in the near future.”

    Is that clear?

  • Percy

    What is clear is that unless a breach of the FFP rules occurs no sanction will be applied, which other clubs could agree with or not. Why would anyone appeal if no breach happens? That was the point that I and others have been making when we refer to the decisions of UEFA. And Jose and Chelsea can have their say. I have that quite clear – but thanks for taking the trouble to clarify what we already knew.In your rush to misdirect and equate Henry Norris tipping his chauffeur a couple of quid to a £1bn investment from The Emirates I think you are still missing the point.

  • Bahrain: The protests and demonstrations are met with increasingly brutal means. Fundamental rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of association have been heavily restricted. Photojournalist arrested december 2013 and tortured. Human rights activist imprisoned and labeled a terrorist. Fadel Abbas was shot by security forces as ha tried to visit a recently released prisoner.The Bahraini authorities must immediately investigate the death, said Amnesty International.

  • M18CTID

    Thanks for the link Walter. I was aware of some of the facts stated in it but not all of it. You’re right that there was all sorts of stuff going on back then with regards to clubs being admitted to the league (for the record, I agree that Chelsea were lucky to get invited in) or remaining in the top flight despite finishing in the relegation places but those things only happened when the divisions were being expanded to include more clubs. However, I can’t see anything in that article that suggests any club other than Arsenal was ever admitted to the top flight of English football despite finishing well outside the promotion places which was the point I was making. You say Tottenham were once promoted despite not finishing in the promotion places but I can’t see any evidence of that in the article. What I can see is something completely opposite – that Tottenham were denied entry into the league despite winning the FA Cup and even TA admits that was unfair.

    As for United and Liverpool fixing that match, well I can’t say I’m particularly surprised 😉

  • M18CTID

    Yes Percy, you’re quite correct. However, the point I and PB were making (to be fair PB probably explained it a lot clearer than I did) was that it is highly unlikely that those circumstances will come about meaning that this story that has appeared in the press is as close to a non-story as you can get but it seems to have got plenty of the natives on here overly excited, hence my straw-clutching comment. The fact that this story appeared on the eve of City’s game against Chelsea, and was splashed across the back pages of The Independent by United apologist Ian Herbert (which in turn meant that United’s defeat at Stoke was pushed onto the inside pages) tells us all we need to know – that this was mischief making in order to deflect the embarrassment of yet another defeat for the football genius that is David Moyes so anyone attaching any real importance to it is getting giddy over something and nothing.

    Percy, you should pop over to Bluemoon sometime – we’re a bit short of intelligent Arsenal posters over there and your input could be invaluable 😉

  • Percy

    I’m really pleased to see to see a more reasoned post; I suspected that the hyperbole and bellicose nature of those early contributions was a defensive reaction and there was better. If you do look through my posts, apart from a bit of gentle joshing, I’m sure you will see I have made no judgemental calls on the City template, just remarks vis-à-vis the FFP rules and responses to your historical and financial mistakes. And, apart from the few trolls this community is most welcoming, not confrontational for its own sake and has a high tolerance level. Which doesn’t mean I don’t have opinions on the takeover of our clubs by some of the characters out there and the need to maintain a sporting fairness for the future of competitive balance. You don’t have to look much further than Rangers, Portsmouth and Leeds to know that is right; and the scousers were only 24 hours away from the bailiffs clearing them out before John Henry came riding to the rescue. I can quite see why you would want to shout out for City and not want to see the negative implications of the balance sheet and the P&L account in as far as FFP is concerned, but that is being wilfully blinkered in my book. Those numbers and the deals are being presented in an obfuscated and creative manner. There has to be a reason for that. But, like many on here, I don’t suppose for one minute that Platini and Co will act and you probably have plenty of other miscreants to fight in your corner. One fly in the ointment, though, could be David Gill. If SAF gets on the phone and urges him to wield his powers as Chairman of the UEFA Club Licensing Committee things could get very interesting, as they relate directly to European Competition entitlements. They’ll be building the barricades on the Bradford Colliery and singing The Song Of Angry Men if that one goes pear shape.

  • M18CTID

    I admit that I should’ve been a bit more restrained when visiting the forum of an opposition club. And you are quite right, while I disagree with a lot of the content on here us non-Arsenal fans are still allowed the chance to air our views even if it differs from the majority. I will counter that by saying I’ve posted a fair bit of reasoned stuff prior to that last post of mine although it was usually accompanied by joshing of my own.

    I’m not totally opposed to the idea of FFP but I don’t believe the regs as they stand will prevent the situations that were allowed to develop at Rangers, Pompey, and Leeds. An unscrupulous owner can still buy a club, mortgage it up to the hilt, and drop it in the mire. However, this could’ve been easily dealt with by bringing in a rule that means owners have to give cast-iron guarantees that they won’t leave a club high and dry in the future. Not only that, I think these regs have been driven by the elite clubs in order to protect their cash cow. As it happens, City should be just about ok and we’ll almost certainly be on the inside of that tent spitting out so in a way I ought to be in favour of it because now we have FFP there’s little chance that any other club will now be bought out by a mega-rich owner and therefore threaten our position. That doesn’t sit right with me though – it would be as hypocritical as Abramovich saying he wants FFP because he doesn’t like the fact that City’s owner has more money than him.

    IMO a fairer way of levelling the playing field would be a Europe-wide salary and transfer cap.

  • WalterBroeckx

    M18CTID,

    There have been other articles on the history site about those other clubs but I couldn’t find them that quickly. Tony Attwood probably would be able to link to them quickly but I’m holding my hands up as I’m not directly involved in the editing of the part of the website. But I remember having read them.

    A website that has exposed things that the official history of Arsenal didn’t know by the way. There are 3 people doing all the field work on this and it must have been an immense job to go through all the old newspapers from those days.

  • Ugandan Goon

    Just seen an article that suggests Man City plan to increase the capacity of their stadium.
    Have i missed something? i am told they can barely fill it as it is.

  • M18CTID

    Ugandan Goon

    I’m not sure whether you’ve been hanging around United fans too often lol (they like to peddle the myth that we only ever sell out when we play them!) but the vast majority of City’s home games sell out. In the past 3 years I think there have only been 2 or 3 league matches that haven’t. Our last 4 FA Cup home ties (against Watford, Leeds, and Barnsley last season and against Watford this season) have also sold out which was pretty much unheard of at our place in the past. League Cup games are a different matter and we hardly ever sell out those but overall the demand is there for an increased capacity stadium. The planned capacity will be 61,500 and while I doubt that we’ll sell it out for the lesser PL games we should do for the key fixtures. Either way, the club is missing out on extra revenue at the moment. This expansion is almost guaranteed to go ahead and should be ready in 18 months time for the start of the 2015-16 season. Planning permission hasn’t been granted yet but is believed to be a formality and an announcement on that is imminent.

  • Ugandan Goon

    @M18CTID,
    LOL,Spot on about getting this from Mancs, I always stick it in there because your lot returned a load tickets for a midweek cup game in the winter last year and rather than admit you could’nt get enough people to come down, they spun it as a pricing issue. just seeking closure, in my own immature way. i’ll get there, pray for me.