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Was it just about Fergie? Or did Untold point in the right direction?

By Walter Broeckx

Somehow it is strange to see the league table this season. When you look for the league table on arsenal.com and you go over the fixtures and results header you get a short league table with the first 6 teams on it. And there is no Manchester United to be seen in that short league table.

Only when you click on the link to see the full table you can find Manchester United.  They are in 7th place.  They have 41 points. Last season at this point of the season they had 62 points already and were well on their way for the league title. And when the title was won their long serving manager told that he would stop. And he declared that Moyes would take over.

Moyes… you know the one that many had said that we should get in to replace Wenger. After sacking Wenger of course.  I wonder how many still dare to say that Moyes would do a better job at Arsenal than Wenger is doing or has done?

Did Manchester United sold their best players during the off season? No, they have in fact almost the same team as they had the season before. But still they missed out on 21 points compared to last season.  Players like Vidic have declared they are out at the end of the season. Rumour has it RVP will also be known as a traitor at United. Problem is that probably nobody will offer him the same wages so he might be stuck in his golden cage the little boy inside cried for.  Wenger said he behaved like a woman hearing her natural clock ticking to be pregnant (win the PL) and then after the child is born you find out it is a monster.

Now in a way blaming it all on Moyes might be a bit short sighted. Because there is another factor. The fear factor.

And I don’t refer to visiting teams having fear for the crowd over there. No,  I am talking about something that has been highlighted on here before. The fear factor of the refs.

As you know Untold Arsenal has been a pioneer on showing numbers on how Manchester United was treated rather nice in general by the refs. We have shown it over a few seasons. Of course some people didn’t believe us.  They wanted to keep their eyes shut and believe in the fairy tale that all was right in the football world and in the PL in particular. It all was based on coincidence and it would even out at the end. But forgetting to say when ‘the end ‘ was supposed to come.

Since Ferguson has stepped down as a manager the talking has started. We had Halsey who said things that made my eyebrows go up. Things that were brushed under the carpet of course. Nobody really wants to wake up the fans who follow football and butter their bread. Yes I am talking about you media.

We had the words from Graham Poll. He also hinted at the influence of Ferguson over the referees. And how they were desperate to not upset Ferguson with controversial decisions. Again nobody really wanting to pick up on it.

And last week we had Dermot Gallagher talking about the fear factor of Ferguson on the refs. Trying to influence the ref to postpone a match so they had a better chance of winning the league.

For me this is only the tip of the iceberg. And most of the times the refs are trying to show that they stood up against the pressure. Using examples that shows them in a good light. But as usual the examples when they were giving in to the pressure are not mentioned. Certainly not by them. Because well…it is human. Nobody wants to be remembered as a ref that openly admitted to not being able to stand up against Ferguson.

But with the words slowly coming out. With the truth slowly being unveiled by referees. And with the numbers we have gathered over the years it is clear that building his legacy was somehow build on the goodwill from the referee world. Or the fear for being punished when not doing it his way. I wonder who was to be used to punish the refs? Maybe a certain Mr. Riley? Head of the PGMOL? Or someone else?

How many titles have been won by cheating as that is what it is? I don’t know. But there have been years that they wouldn’t have won it without the help of the refs. I think only United fans will deny this. They don’t want their dreams being shattered of course.  Understandable maybe.

Fact is that this season we have seen refs no longer giving in to the fear factor that is Old Trafford. Or should I say the fear factor that Fergie was? And now suddenly it goes horribly wrong for United.

One could point at Moyes. But maybe I was a bit harsh at the start of this article as he sure was very capable of keeping Everton in good shape all those years on a rather tight budget. So did he overnight become a terrible manager? Of course not.

But the difference is that now the refs no longer fear the manager of Manchester United. And so they are more or less treated in the same way other teams are.

Is this different approach from the refs enough to drop 21 points in 25 matches? The players are almost identical to last season. So the players can’t be it. The manager having a lot of experience in the PL and doing a good job. So that can’t be it completely.

So that leaves me with the way the refs have been treating United all those years and now have stopped doing.  So ignoring the ref bullshit as some do might be sticking your head in the sand. The influence refs have are very big in a season. Certainly in the PL with the fact there are too few refs.

Maybe one could say that given by this example we could estimate that it can cost you up to 15 points after 25 matches.  That would be around 22 points difference over a whole season.

But feel free to ignore the evidence brought to you in the past about the refs. Don’t stop believing in the pure, honesty of human race. After all aren’t we all holy people? Are there wars out there, you say… ? Oops the human race isn’t as nice as we thought, isn’t it…

 

78 comments to Was it just about Fergie? Or did Untold point in the right direction?

  • Divz

    Hahaha this article is a joke!!

  • neil

    What’s your excuses for the last 8 years? The refs? Haha. ?

  • WalterBroeckx

    A possible warning after I let these two posters (Divz and Neil) on the site.

    First of all: they just spout a one liner. The joke is that by saying it is a joke you only make a fool of yourself. Now if you could come up with some arguments (and saying this is a joke is not an argument). Like evidence about how many decisions went in favour or against MU. Like the statistical evidence that Fergie time didn’t exist at all. You know such things.

    If you cannot do this then we gather that you have no evidence yourself contrary to this site who has ten thousands of arguments to back up our case.

    And our friend Neil. Must think he is the funny one (following the joke one could say). Again no arguments. Just the one liner without any evidence. But to answer him: yes at least once. 2007-2008. The refs tilted the pitch against Arsenal. But in fact that wasn’t the point from the article.

    There are several points in fact.
    Like is it really just Moyes who is doing his job?
    What is your answer on the reports coming out from several former refs (note only former refs) about the fear they had to upset Ferguson?
    Or do you think that one manager can decide through his mouthpiece who will be punished after upsetting him?

    If so fine but then you admit the playing field has not been level at all.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Final note: I let these one pass as it contained no real abuse. But for the future posting such things don’t add anything to a possible discussion about this topic and will not be published

  • Shakabula Gooner

    ManU also lost a large chunk of Ferguson’s support team in the coaching department when Moyes preferred to bring his team at Everton onboard. Thereby, he deprived himself of a proper transition between what the players in the club were used to under Ferguson and what, suddenly is demanded of them by Moyes
    This may also be why several veterans in the club are keen to move on.

  • bob mac

    Absolutely spot on regarding this aspect in the ‘downfall’ of last years champions.

    The other point to make is the archaic tactics used by the manager, to have as a base’get it wide and get the crosses in’ is the wrong option if you wish to break down a deep defensive system.

    What is required is mobile, technical, sharp and extremely patient players.

    Plus an experienced manager and support staff.

    There lies the difference between The Arsenal and manure…….long may it continue.

  • Walter,

    I don’t disagree with the basis of this article but I’ll take the issue to a different direction as I have done before. Man United is not where they are today only because the refs have stopped favouring them. There is more to it than that.

    At the beginning of the season, Man United were still getting dodgy decisions in their favour like they did under Ferguson. How many blatant dives did they get penalties off in the first 6 or 7 matches in the EPL with Ashley Young being the main culprit?

    The refs were happy to keep doing Man United the favours as long as the media still saw and covered them like the team under Ferguson. The refs stopped favouring them when it became obvious that the team is weak and the media started covering them as such. If in doubt, look back at their games of the early season.

    While I agree 100% that Ferguson’s teams were heavily favoured by the refs, I also believe (even if only grudgingly) that he was a great manager who always got the best out of his teams. This attribute made the media worship him and his teams. The gutless officials then did their part by giving them the advantage whenever they could because as long as the media love you, they’ll expose all bad calls against you and sweep those favouring you under the carpet. The refs know this and they act accordingly.

    There are many things wrong with this current Man United team but I think it is simplistic to attribute all their misfortunes to the refs withdrawing their ‘services’ even though it’s true that they have.

  • double canister

    Walter
    Did you notice that Manu weren’t even given a legitimate penalty at OT yesterday?
    I feel it’s down to the histrionics and over-reactions of manu players – looking at you JvC. Some of the ref’s must be heartily sick of it.

    How they don’t card Rooney more often for the non-stop mouthy abuse he gives them is surprising.

  • Hlanganani

    I couldn’t have said it better

  • jambug

    Absolutely spot on Walter.

    Within my circle of football friends, family, and work mates, a very high proportion took it as read that United get favourable decisions.

    The problem was that it had become so commonplace it stopped mattering and shamefully this apathy was fed by the Medias complete and utter indifference to it all.

    Fergie ranting was just ‘passion’

    Fergie pointing at his watch was, well, just funny.

    Fergie accusing Refs of cheating United was just ‘mind games’

    The media was so far up Fergies backside that they allow themselves and there back pages to be used as Fergies mouth piece to inform Referees as to how he wanted ayn up and coming game to be refereed.

    If he felt he needed to take an aggressive attitude into a game he would have articles all over the Red tops informing us all, including the Refs, how the next opponents where a bunch of wimps who didn’t like it up. ‘You just watch ’em. One touch and there rolling all over the place’ In other words, don’t fall for it when we’re kicking them off the park.

    He did this for 2 weeks on the run up to that fateful day at OT when they WAS in fact, allowed to kick us off the park.

    Conversely if he wanted protection, which he did quite often in Ronaldos day, he was allowed to use the media to point out what a bunch of thugs where up next and they must not be allowed to stifle true genius.

    The Media where simply a Man Utd propaganda machine.

    So what has now turned out to be a very REAL agenda, to put SUSTAINED pressure on the authorities, most notably the Referees, was, at the time, treated as some kind of joke that we should all be laughing at, and more importantly, going a long with. After all it was all harmless stuff and nothing to get het up about.

    Obviously not !! Unless you’re on the end of it of course !!

    Another trick used to deflect attention from the Fergie/United Refereeing bias was to rope Utds direct opponents into the same camp.

    You know, the ‘All the big teams get the decisions’ shit the media so love to peddle.

    Trouble is Walter there’s only one place that all this evidence can be bought to light, and ultimately acted upon, and that’s through the media, and as they are a major part of what was going on in the first place that is just NEVER going to happen.

  • Micheal Ram

    I think Moyes will never be an old sly fox like Ferguson. So in my believe the exodus of so-called Ferguson players is actually good for the club if the upper power decides Moyes stays. The view and grip on referees will be non-existance unlike previous predecessor. Probably Ferguson quit because he couldnt handle or control the monsters he create at the first place and made young Scotty as the chess pawn. Just a speculation of course. I like Moyes. He humble, respects everybody in football and most importantly takes responsibility of things entrusted to him. Easily a scapegoat. Still a young manager who needs to learn the evil sides of football and act appropriately. This is his team now and will be his stamp mark in given period of time.. Im an Arsenal supporter anyway but gotta give credit where it due. This way we can have a healthy EPL competition. Still wanting for Mou to lose his job though.

  • Tasos

    There’s definitely been a change in the way Ref’s are now officiating Man Utd. Although I would also maintain that they had still been receiving kind decisions this season up to and until H Webb’s appointment against Spurs at Old Trafford.

    Who would’ve thought H Webb to be the catalyst to betray the mighty Man Utd machine.

    The thing is, even with this now obvious evidence , I still watch Man Utd’s games and wait for inevitable late penalty decision in their favour but it’s no longer happening and finally their mid-table league position portrays the type of ordinary team I’ve been witnessing for the last few years.

  • Andrei

    It is hard to argue against United enjoying years of friendly officiating in the past. Whether it was conspiracy, SAF fear factor or just referees reluctant to make controversial calls against top EPL side is up for debate. And perhaps not particularly important at the moment. However, it is a bit simplistic to suggest that the recent United woes are due to changed officiating regime. At best we are talking about 5-6 points difference this season which would probably take them closer to the coveted “top 4 finish trophy” but definitely not to another runaway EPL title.

    The point is that the problems with MUFC run much deeper than most supporters and even the board are willing to admit. The appointment of Moyes was safe business as usual decision sold under premise of continuing with the proven club traditions. Even now after the decision has clearly backfired the prevailing argument is that United simply hired the wrong man. Had it been “the right man” (insert your favorite manager here) it would have been like in the old good times wining trophies after perhaps short painless transition period. The harsh truth is that there is no going back to old good times – that ship had sailed long ago. MUFC are a crumbling empire that has operated in the recent years under outdated non-sustainable business model with SAF the Last Mahican (or dinosaur depending on your view) the only man able to keep the ship afloat. United are facing long and painful task of reforming themselves, finding their new identity and it is not clear if they have got the time or financial resources to accomplish that. David Moyes is merely a decent manager with modest success at the mid-table club with limited ambitions and dressing room that did not include charming individuals like Wayne Rooney, RVP or Patrice Evra. Moyes is a caretaker called up to oversee a sinking ship that had been abandoned by the captain in the golden parachute.

    Don’t feel too sorry for David Moyes however. He has done remarkably well financially for a man who according to United supporters ‘has no clue’. Moyes has made £26M in his years with Everton and now has happily joined the crowd of those feeding off United by reportedly signing a £30M contract for 6 years.

  • Mandy Dodd

    See yaya let off yet again! Fergie is a disgrace whose legacy is being tarnished by the day

  • Andrei

    @Mandy Dodd I don’t think Fergie’s legacy in any danger. Do you honestly believe that the establishment will expose a British manager who was knighted for “his extraordinary services to football”? If anything Ferguson personal legacy is being solidified by what is happening at United.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Anyone got a link to a video of Yaya Toure?

  • Mike T

    Andrei

    Your post at 6,12pm sums up in one the issues at Man Utd.

    Look at the Man Utd squad and try, through a neutrals eyes to say who would be an automatic choice at a top 3 club, not your own.

    I have a go and suggest that at Arsenal probably only Rooney and RVP (sorry).

    The irony is although Man Utd supporters recognised important SAF was important they had no idea just how average many of their players are

  • david fitch

    Always enjoy reading your articles and the logic you apply to ref’s effects for certain teams via their managers. Do you think that Mourinho will take over the mantle and will have the same effect as Fergie had only time will tell I think he may have even more?

  • Andrei,

    As far as Fergies legacy is concerned, every single football fan, pundit, referee and player KNOWS what this bully got away with over the years.
    He even did it in his book, castigating his own players just to make sure he came up smelling of roses.
    We realise that Moyes has inherited the poison challice and can only sympathise with the man.
    Just one more thought…all those Wenger haters who wanted Moyes to replace him…funny we never hear from them now isn’t it???

  • STEVE VALLINS

    Mandy i posted on Walters previous article that Yaya Toure got off another attack on an opponent the powers to be want Man City to be champs

  • Gordon

    Don’t forget, all ManU’s rivals have improved. Any club with young players or player’s new to the Prem will improve after a season or two in the top flight. Any club with an ageing team will decline. So ManU has gone back a bit, and had a complete management upheaval that will take time to settle down, meanwhile their rivals have got stronger. The SAF factor probably makes a difference – especially last season when they won so many games by narrow margins, but there are other reasons too.

  • Rufusstan

    While the change in attitude of the refs has helped, to paraphrase some old dead guy: ‘something has been rotten in the State of Glazer for some time’.

    It is not like a great team fell apart the moment Old Red Nose left. The squad has been in decline for some time, and he held things together somehow, usually with short-term solutions — like buying the Dutchman, pulling Scholes out of retirement, even playing Giggs. That, along with City, Chelsea and us not getting our collective acts together gave him his last title.

    I get the impression he knew what was coming, could see the magnitude of the rebuilding that was needed, and decided to get out with his legacy in place.

    Worse, in my suspicious view, he made decisions that benefited his legacy, rather than the future of the club in his last few years, which may even have accelerated the collapse.

    If United had started rebuilding seriously 3-4 years ago, they might have been in better shape now, but Ferguson would have retired from a team in transition — perhaps he should have gone when it seemed he first had planned to. Then again; was that him or the owners? What could have happened if they stopped winning while their finances were dodgier?

    If you look through their squad, there are very few players not either: aging and in (or on the point of) decline, too young and inexperienced to be first choice at United, or simply not good enough.

    And thats just the first team; there is very little of top 4 ready quality behind it.

  • colario

    On BBC Radio 5 this evening it was noted that Manure’s last championship was won for them by the goals of that revolting player and they are missing his goals this year. So at last an admittance that manure were a one player team.

    We here so much about if Giroud gets injured we will be lost. We took ‘their advice’ and didn’t by a ‘one player team member’ but a team player who scores goals. And we are still wrong!

    There is talk of the revolting player becoming a revolving player and leaving manure for another manure land!

    What Radio 5 together with all the other ‘unbiased media’ neglect to say is that the winning a factor at ‘manure’ was not the players but the ‘fear of fergie’ factor.

    I think it is becoming evident that this year the policy is to do all that can be dine to keep the league winners in the north no matter which team it is.

  • colario

    hear*

  • Mandy Dodd

    Maybe not in establishment terms Andrei but more and more refs coming out and fans realising just what he has been up to. Nothing will ever happen to him but people will know. Yes he has a knighthood and joins a more than a few of varying degrees of criminality and general dodgyness.
    Just seen the posts on yaya got there a bit late!

  • Alex

    “How could man united won with these players ”

    Is been said by admiration.Even their own fans hesitate to believe.

    As you say in your article every kind of penalty were awarded easily.

    The little push of Sidwell to Carrik that led to the goal would have been an easy call for referees to call it during Fergie days and it is this calls they build a make a difference.

    So I agree completely with your article.

  • WalterBroeckx

    http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos/no-punishment-the-controversial-yaya-toure-man-city-kick-on-ricky-van-wolfswinkel-norwich-vine/

    no certainly it was just an impression of Monty Python act the Ministry of Silly walks

  • OMGArsenal

    Walter, most UA faithful have said it here (allowing Divz and Neil to post only highlights the intelligence of our other regulars against their moronic commentary, well done Walter!).
    The referees’ incompetence and fear, now significantly lessened, is only one facet of the causes allowing United to slip down to where they belong and belonged:

    1)Their players are getting much older and nearing the end of their careers,
    2)Other teams believe they can win at Old Trafford and are doing it,
    3)The United team has stopped believing in their invincibility,
    4)They aren’t playing out of fear of the Fungus anymore but are mollified by the Moyes,
    5)The media, while still United supporters, are asking questions more and more,
    6)Their supporters are also beginning to show significant discontent,
    7)As SG said, Moyes lost years of experience in letting the old management team go,
    8)The players don’t have faith in Moyes anymore and are showing it,
    9)Other decent teams have figured out Moyes’ tactics and can counter them,and finally
    10)Some of their stars are having a crappy season (deGea, Rio Ferdinand, Vidic, etc.)…

    Sir Fungus won his 20 titles because he is a great manager and a formidable tactician in the EPL but less so against European competitors. United merited their titles, despite some help from the officials and we must acknowledge that. However, despite Saturday’s horrendous performance, I still believe that this can be our winning season, with many more to come.

  • marcus

    @Walter

    Can you compare that with any other FA sanctions?

  • BILL FROM MANHATTAN

    I remember back around 2003-2004 Old Drunk Red Nose announced his upcoming retirement. He said he was tired and burnt out and it’s time to move on. At the time Arsenal was whipping his ass regularly and Wenger had a winning record head to head against him at that point. Then he did an about-face and changed his mind. Who is to say that he didn’t get some kind of assurances from Rat-face Riley who is in charge of appointing the referees telling him not to worry it’s all taken care of. It’s in the bag. The old sot stayed on for almost 10 more years. Did he suddenly start drinking from The Fountain Of Youth? Man. Utd. always got questionable decisions in their favor, But after he made that deal with the devil it was a lot more blatant.It was MOTHER-FUCKING ridiculous. I also commented at the beginning of the season when the Refs and Red Nose Familiarity scandal came to light that the cowardly British Media would sweep the whole fetid mess under the rug. The goddamn Brits can’t have their Icons tarnished. The only people who say that those later Titles were on the up and up are Man. Utd. Supporters wearing blinders.

  • Ray from Norfolk, Virginia

    A physician was searching for Riley in Red Nose’s derriere.
    A colonoscopy failed to turn the unethical SOB turd.
    Eventually, Red Nose spoke and Riley was there:his uvula.
    PS: Where is MChammer threatening us with yet another lawsuit for slandering Yaya Toure? What a shame a good player has to resort to this, and what a shame that 2 of 3 voted to let him off.

  • Brickfields Gunners

    What’s that Under the Kilt?

    A young lad went to a tailor shop in Scotland. He told the tailor, “I’d like ye to make me a kilt with this material here, and if ye don’t mind, I’d like ye to make me a pair of matching underwear for it. I hear it gets a might drafty up dem tings.”

    A few days later, the tailor called the lad back to the shop. “Here’s ye kilt, and here’s ye matching underwear, and here’s five yards of material left over. Take it home and keep it in case you want anything else made of it.”

    The lad rushed home and donned his kilt. He decided to run to his girlfriend’s house to show off his new purchase. Unfortunately, in his excitement, he forgot to wear his underwear

    When his girlfriend answered the door, he pointed to his kilt and said, “Well, what’d ye think?”

    “Ah, but dat’s a fine looking kilt,” she exclaimed.

    “Aye, and if ye like it, y’ell really like what’s underneath,” he bragged as he lifted his kilt.

    “Oh, but dat’s a dandy,” his girlfriend shouted admiringly.

    Still not realizing that he didn’t have his underwear on, he exclaimed quite proudly, “Aye, and if ye like it, I’ve got five more yards of it at home!”

  • Brickfields Gunners

    Somehow this tale seems here …..

    A man returns home a day early from a business trip. It’s after midnight. While en route home he asks the cabby if he would be a witness. The man suspects his wife is having an affair and he wants to catch her in the act. For $100, the cabby agrees.

    Quietly arriving home, the husband and cabby tip toe into the bedroom. The husband switches on the lights, yanks the blanket back and there is his wife in bed with another man!

    The husband puts a gun to the naked man’s head.

    The wife shouts, ‘Don’t do it! I lied when I told you I inherited money:

    HE paid for the Porsche I gave you.
    HE paid for our new cabin cruiser.
    HE paid for your football season tickets.
    HE paid for our house at the lake.
    HE paid for your Hawaiian golf vacation.
    HE paid for our country club membership, and HE even pays the monthly dues!’

    Shaking his head from side-to-side, the husband lowers the gun. He looks over at the cabby and says, ‘What would you do?’

    The cabby replies, ‘Me? I’d cover his ass with that blanket before he catches a cold!!’

  • Brickfields Gunners

    Sorry ..seems apt here..

  • Brickfields Gunners

    THAT’S ALL WE NEED

    Grandma calls and announces that she will be coming by for a visit in about half an hour.

    When she comes she is surprised to see her grandchild running to her as if possessed and hugging her with all his tiny might.

    “What is it, Eric??” She asks.

    “Now that you’re here, grandma, we have everything!”

    “Whatever do you mean?” Inquired the surprised granny.

    “When you called, mom said: ‘That’s all we need right now.’
    So now that you’re here, we have all we need!”

    Guess many of us feel the same way when ‘that lot’ (you know – they who don’t exsist !)come on here !

  • WalterBroeckx

    🙂 🙂 LOL 🙂

    Well Brickfields you sure know how to make a person spill his tea. Damned and I had promised myself not to read your posts and drink at the same time. Silly me…

  • jambug

    Adrei

    Pretty good summery.

    One point you make is that the change has perhaps made a difference of “5-6 points difference at most this season” A bit kind but……

    Okay lets say that’s right. Extrapolate that to a full season and what are we looking at? 10 points.

    Well I would say that is the MINIMUM points they would of gained from, lets say ‘questionable’ refereeing.

    I would say conversely that pro active discrimination against Arsenal by Referees has COST us at least a similar amount.

    That’s a 20 point disadvantage.

    Even if you halve that it’s still bad !!

    Of course all our woes over the last few seasons are not solely down to refs. There’s the oilers usurping us with wheelbarrow loads of dosh and I’ve lost count of the times we’ve shot ourselves in the foot. But whatever our deficiencies, it is still an unacceptable amount of bias shown towards Utd, as well as the bias shown against us.

    And for those reading this thinking it’s hogwash go look at the tables produced by this site for an insight as to the true scale of bias involved.

    NB. And as has been pointed out so many times these stats are produced by a cross section of ex and current refs. Not Arsenal fans.

  • neil

    Whenever a team has won the championship they were the best team. Regardless of how many bad decisions went their way I ‘d accept they were the better team. The team who finishes top were the best. I never cry about them. i say well done to them and look forward to the next season. I don’t whine about chelsea, blackburn, or arsenal title winning teams. But the refs have won us everything. Change the record. Look to your own boss and your club. When you played at highbury you were a team, since you have gone to the emirates you are a business. Since the invincibles you’ve gone downhill, nothing to do with refs. You haven’t won anything because you weren’t good enough. All your best players leaving was because your boss would not pay money for world class. Rvp, nasri, fabregas, clichy, left because you weren’t good enough. Nothing to do with refs.

  • jambug

    neil.

    So you just ignore the £500 Million net spends of both City and Chelsea, as well as Arsenals £450 Million investment in a Stadium, as Irrelevant do you?

    Idiocy like that totally undermines anything you may have to say from that point on.

  • neil

    Jambug. Our net spend over the last 10 years was probably the same as yours. But we won titles. What happened to you guys was when the going got tough all your top players left. Money wasn’t the only reason: they left to win things which you guys have forgotten how to do. We sold our best player Ronaldo for 80+ million pounds but we got over it and moved on. We got over chelsea spending millions and won the title. We got over megabucks city and won the title. you could have sold nasri, fabregss, van persie at the start of transfer windows and immediately bought to replace them but your boss decided to Leave it til last minute and refused to buy.Now you.spend 40+millions on ozil and suddenly you had no money. Wenger almost always made money on transfers. Where did he spend it? I dont care if the teams spent billions they won championships or cups or champs league. Well done to them.city spent 250mill to win on goal difference in added on time. So what. They were the best team and they deserved it. After 38 games the best team wins the title money or no money

  • Mandy Dodd

    Dont think a Utd fan can state with any credibility that refs do not influence the outcomes of titles.

  • neil

    Jambug. Have you forgotten we (man u) won titles with a debt bigger than your stadium investment?

  • neil

    Glad I opened up a debate. This is only against Fergie and united. Bit of a one sided debate. Slightly biased? Sour grapes. Get over it.

  • Mandy Dodd

    The way things are going for City….(with the Yaya clearly a protected species) as soon as memories of the Utd trophies fade, we will have Utd fans over here complaining about them and the refs.

  • Rupert Cook

    It’s all a bit pointless now, isn’t it? Manu got some dodgy decisions, I’m sure even some of their supporters know that but nobody is going to go back and rewrite the record books. We wouldn’t have won the league anyway as our squad has always been a little short on the quality needed and when we do have it we sell it off. Many fans believe we’re a business first, a football club second but to a certain extent we’ve had to be after the stadium investment. That said we’ve been a little too cautious with money in recent years but at least we’re not in Manu’s situation. They’ll probably have to spend in excess of 150 million to get them near the title again. Or find a better manager than Moyes.

    The latest media rumour is that RVP wants to come back. Now that’ll be interesting.

  • Wengerson

    AAA Cook

    “…nobody is going to go back and rewrite the record books.”

    I’m sure that’s what your kind said in Italy when teams were stripped off their ill-gotten honors. Lance Armstrong, milli vanilli?

    “… our squad has always been a little short on the quality needed and when we do have it we sell it off.”

    You mean quality like fabregas, nasri, adebayor, van persie? You do know that these payers actually wanted to leave, right? Some even forced their way out!

    Do you give credit to the club for securing long term contracts with jack, theo, aaron, etc? I doubt it.

  • Ugandan Goon

    @Rupert Cook,
    The Club’s ambition to modernise within the constraints of the self sufficiency have hampered investment on players, we simply haven’t been able to compete, so the club’s strategy was to put faith in their manager to find and develop young players with whom he was tasked to keep the club competitive until we could compete in a transfer market which had changed beyond their estimation when they were planning the stadium move,this was mainly because all over Europe investment in football had really taken off inflating player prices and wages, added to the challenge of competing at the highest level, because even the players we got cheap and developed were being offered silly money else where, that meant we had the added handicap of rebuilding a distabilised squad every preseason minus one or more of our KEY players, and even though the replacements were good players, we were starting from scratch, seeing glimpses of their potential rather than the finished article, while all around us the oligarchs and monarchs lavished their managers with the best talent to sit on the bench, so to keep up we had to rump up the investment on the business side of things, that needs the oxygen of publicity, so we talked about it a lot, and as you say sometimes it sounded like we would have been prouder of the trophy of sound financial management rather than the league, we took our plaudits and the jibes with gritted teeth and cracked on, remember that our rivals had had a head start (i include City because of their money and global connections of the owners), we’ve come through phase 1(debt paid,the front loaded sponsorships deals up for renegotiation, phase 2 is just kicking in, stick around, it is going to be fun.
    Why do i bring all this up? because justice is always good, it is the small margins that count at the top level in everything in life, if your opponent cheats then you have no chance, if it is found out later that your opponent cheated, it would be a credit to you that you ran him so close.
    The RVP thing, Wenger explained that one of the coaches at Man U who had strong connections with the dutch FA advised RVP that if he stayed with us it would limit his chances of playing for Holland, Moyes seems to have separated the two for us , gotta love him for that, saying that, Flamini came back, i must admit i still haven’t gotten over the betrayal, fucking gelatos don’t you know, the only player i’d take back is Fabregas.

  • Ugandan Goon

    @neil,
    This not twitter, you can expound to your hearts content!
    How are you calling tomorrrow’s match?

  • neil

    @ugandan goon. 1 1

  • neil

    @Uganda goon. What do you think? But really hope its a 3 4 to us.

  • neil

    To everyone. Good luck in the match tomorrow and may the best team win.

  • neil

    Let’s hope tomorrow’s match is a classic and no stupid red cards or bad incidents ruin it.

  • Ugandan Goon

    @Neil,
    I can’t decide who needs the point more, i fear you may be right, both teams will have worked on defence and shape after their respective fortunes last weekend, i hope they just go at each other hammer and tongs, in a bid to second guess the othe, here’s hoping for a winner in Wengertime after a 5-5 thriller!

  • Mandy Dodd

    Rupert, precisely, they got dodgy decisions, and rather a lot of them and over a long period of time. At least the Italians, who are supposedly more inherently corrupt than us….had the guts to take that sort of thing on, and dish out punishments. Pointless, maybe, but seems to be happening all over again….with another Manchester club…..but time may reveal more.
    Pointless, but no need to just blindly accept things, not sure what us mortals can do about it, but this site and others are at least highlighting such issues.
    Cannot ever seen vp coming back, earns too much for a player of his age and injury record….unless of course Utd subsidise his wages. Wenger did not answer that question so as not to reject the possibility out of hand, and provide motivation for vp tomorrow. But guess stranger things have happened, just not at arsenal.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Rupert, precisely, they got dodgy decisions, and rather a lot of them and over a long period of time. At least the Italians, who are supposedly more inherently corrupt than us….had the guts to take that sort of thing on, and dish out punishments. Pointless, maybe, but seems to be happening all over again….with another Manchester club…..but time may reveal more.
    Pointless, but no need to just blindly accept things, not sure what us mortals can do about it, but this site and others are at least highlighting such issues.
    Cannot ever seen vp coming back, earns too much for a player of his age and injury record….unless of course Utd subsidise his wages. Wenger did not answer that question so as not to reject the possibility out of hand, and provide motivation for vp tomorrow. But guess stranger things have happened, just not at arsenal.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Rupert, precisely, they got dodgy decisions, and rather a lot of them and over a long period of time. At least the Italians, who are supposedly more inherently corrupt than us….had the guts to take that sort of thing on, and dish out punishments. Pointless, maybe, but seems to be happening all over again….with another Manchester club…..but time may reveal more.
    Pointless, but no need to just blindly accept things, not sure what us mortals can do about it, but this site and others are at least highlighting such issues.
    Cannot ever seen vp coming back, earns too much for a player of his age and injury record….unless of course Utd subsidise his wages. Wenger did not answer that question so as not to reject the possibility out of hand, and provide motivation for vp tomorrow. But guess stranger things have happened, just not at arsenal.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Rupert, precisely, they got dodgy decisions, and rather a lot of them and over a long period of time. At least the Italians, who are supposedly more inherently corrupt than us….had the guts to take that sort of thing on, and dish out punishments. Pointless, maybe, but seems to be happening all over again….with another Manchester club…..but time may reveal more.
    Pointless, but no need to just blindly accept things, not sure what us mortals can do about it, but this site and others are at least highlighting such issues.
    Cannot ever seen vp coming back, earns too much for a player of his age and injury record….unless of course Utd subsidise his wages. Wenger did not answer that question so as not to reject the possibility out of hand, and provide motivation for vp tomorrow. But guess stranger things have happened, just not at arsenal.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Rupert, precisely, they got dodgy decisions, and rather a lot of them and over a long period of time. At least the Italians, who are supposedly more inherently corrupt than us….had the guts to take that sort of thing on, and dish out punishments. Pointless, maybe, but seems to be happening all over again….with another Manchester club…..but time may reveal more.
    Pointless, but no need to just blindly accept things, not sure what us mortals can do about it, but this site and others are at least highlighting such issues.
    Cannot ever seen vp coming back, earns too much for a player of his age and injury record….unless of course Utd subsidise his wages. Wenger did not answer that question so as not to reject the possibility out of hand, and provide motivation for vp tomorrow. But guess stranger things have happened, just not at arsenal.

  • bjtgooner

    You can say that again Mandy!

  • Mandy Dodd

    Sorry,about multiple posts, not trying to go overboard on my point….really,…not sure what went on there!

  • Mandy Dodd

    Nice one bjt,

  • bjtgooner

    These things happen, don’t worry, your points are good ones.

  • Pat

    Good laugh, Mandy and bjt!

  • Mandy Dodd

    Just copying what politicians and the media do

  • neil

    Don’t remember you being stripped of your title when your manager george graham was found guilty of taking bungs. Strange.

  • neil

    Am signing off from this discussion. Good luck in your title chase. Thanks it’s been fun.

  • Tasos

    26 NOVEMBER 2011

    The significance of this date?

    It’s the last time Man Utd conceded a penalty in the Premier League.

    75 games. 6,750 minutes. 405,000 seconds and counting…..

  • jambug

    Neil

    “Our net spend was probably the same as yours over the last 10 years”

    As they say, when in a whole stop digging !!!!

    These following statistics are accurate. Check them. So, for you to suggest what you have is just ridiculous.

    It would be an even higher net spend but for the one season you showed a profit when you sold Ronaldo. That’s strange in itself as I didn’t think United sold there ‘best players’. No worries though as you spent £100 Million NET over the next 3 years to make up for it.

    Manchester United and Arsenals Net Spend over 12 years from season 2001/02 to 2011/12.

    MANCHESTER UNITED

    01′ 02′ = -£43 Million

    02′ 03′ = -£12 Million

    03′ 04′ = -£29 Million

    04′ 05′ = -£7 Million

    05′ 06′ = -£32 Million

    06′ 07′ = -£10 Million

    07′ 08′ = -£28 Million

    08′ 09′ = +£44 Million (when you sold Ronaldo)

    09′ 10′ = -£30 Million

    10′ 11′ = -£11 Million

    Total Net Spend = £206 Million

    ARSENAL

    00′ 01′ = -£1 Million

    01′ 02′ = -£3 Million

    02′ 03′ = -£16 Million

    03′ 04′ = -£12 Million

    04′ 05′ = -£9 Million

    05′ 06′ = -£11 Million

    06′ 07′ = -£8 Million

    07′ 08′ = +£4 Million

    08′ 09′ = -£12 Million

    09′ 10′ = +£15 Million

    10′ 11′ = -£1.5 Million

    11′ 12′ = -£1.5 Million

    Total Net spend = £57 Million

    So don’t try and make like you’ve been operating on some kind of shoestring budget over the last decade because you haven’t. Okay compared to the ‘Oilers’ your spend is about 50% of there’s and look how it’s finally catching up with you. Ours is 25% of yours, so that’s about 1/10 TH of the oilers.

    Yes I know, when you look at it like that it’s a miracle where even where we are !!! But hey ho !!!

    You had an injection of money when the Glazers arrived but alas for you those chickens are coming home to roost, which is why over the last couple of years your net spend has dropped. That lack of player investment (Judas excepted) is filtering through hence your current relative poor showing in the PL.

    Our lack of player investment was due to our Stadium debt and choosing not to have a ‘sugar daddy’ investor. Both of those are our choice. Arsenal FC knew it would ‘hamstring’ us for a while and where prepared to live with that, and deal with it as best we could. I and most posters on here agree with and understand that. Basically it’s for people with that mind set that UNTOLD was set up for.

    It’s true to say not everyone agrees with the Model and that’s up to them, though why they come on this site stirring shit I’ll never know. But each to there own.

    But what I’ve printed above are FACTS.

    You don’t have to like Arsenal or agree with the way that they are doing things but don’t come on here making ludicrous statements about ‘spending the same money’ without having a clue what you are talking about.

  • jambug

    Walter.

    I’m still waiting to hear if Sherwood is going to be charged for the ‘Bottle Kicking’ incident at the weekend.

    Wenger got sent to the stands, on the word of the 4th official who was standing near the incident, as he was at the weekend, and a subsequent 3 match ban for doing exactly the same thing as Sherwood at OT a few years back.

    Has there been anything made of it?

    Has it been on SKY, Radio, papers etc.?

    I am the only one who gives a shit about one rule for one, one rule for another !!!?

  • jambug

    Niel.

    If the math doesn’t add up that’s because somehow I missed Uniteds 11′ 12′ season Net spend of £49 Million.

    How did I miss that, I know you did, obviously, but how did I ?

  • TJ

    @jambug

    When Arsene was sent to the stand for kicking the bottle he did not receive a ban, and in fact received an apology from the head of the referees, who incidentally not was not Mike cheat Riley at the time.

  • jambug

    TJ

    I vaguely remember the apology but as I recall that was because he was sent behind the ‘benches’ where there was nowhere to go, leaving him standing, embarrassingly, in the middle of nowhere, and not down the tunnel in the corner where he should of been sent.

    I understood the apology was for ’embarrassing’ him not for ‘sending him off’

    I still though he got a three game ban though.

    My apologies if I’m wrong.

  • neil

    @jambug. Your owner Stan kroenke is worth 5.5 billion and your wannabe owner Usmanov is worth 13billion. No sugar daddy.arsenal have no money. BS!

  • jambug

    Stan Kroenke has money. Usmanov has money. It’s NOT Arsenals money.

    What are you saying? They have to spend there own money?

  • jambug

    neil.

    You seem like one of those people who thinks that actually EARNING the money you spend is an Alien concept. Worse than that you cant seem to grasp any other concept than spending other peoples money !!

    Whatever, Arsenal have chosen a self sustaining model. Do you even understand what that is?

    I’ll educate you. It means spending what your business generates (at least broadly speaking)

    It specifically means NOT spending money bestowed on them from benefactors, be it owners or who ever.

  • neil

    We can go on forever with thus debate so I am going to end it. Thought you deserved to win the match tonight but am happy with a point. Still for all you people reading this , good luck on winning the title. I’m outta here.

  • Brickfields Gunners

    The AAAAs prayer –
    ” Dear women who are awesome , smart , sexy and deeply in love with me , please start existing !”