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October 2016
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Supporting Arsenal, Arsène FC or Wenger FC or all of them at the same time

By Walter Broeckx

The aaa who are having a field day celebrating Arsenal losing their FA cup match has told us more than once that we support Wenger FC or Arsene FC and not Arsenal.

Of course by showing their real colours and sending in (not published) celebration comments after our loss to Watford they are what they are. Not supporters of Wenger or Arsenal.

They throw out the question: “what will you do when Wenger is gone?” Making it sound that when Wenger leaves, we will stop supporting Arsenal. Of course I can’t speak for the others but I do know what I will do.

First of all I will keep Wenger in mind as the best manager we ever had. Not just for the trophies but for all he brought to this club and for the class he added to our club.

Now on this blog Tony has shown on more than one occasion that Wenger is the best manager we have had in our history no matter from which angle you want to look at. Most trophies, highest win percentage, helping to build the stadium…. His legacy will live for ever.

So the fear is that the next manager might face a tough time. As Manchester United has shown it is not easy to replace a legend at a club. Wenger has always said that he wants to leave the club in a better shape than when he came to Arsenal. So if he does that, the next manager should have a good team to start with.

And where will I be at that moment? Well I will be where I am now. I now want us to win every match. And this will be no different when Wenger is our manager or not. Because that is what I am. I am a supporter. Yes I highly admire and respect Wenger for all he has done, all he does and all he will do for Arsenal. But that will never make me want to wish harm to our club the day he will leave.

We see this after every dropped point where so-called supporters wish Arsenal to lose the match in the hope that Wenger will be fired. I will never do this. I will never wish Arsenal to lose any match. Some defeats are easier to take than others of course. Sending out a youth team in the league cup will not make me really mad or depleted. I will feel sad for the kids who played in it but I will not lose myself and start to shout abuse to anyone. Apart from the ref if he screwed us, but that is another story.

So my dear aaa you can be assured that whatever, whoever will manage Arsenal in the future I will be hoping that we will win every single match.

And that is where our ways split I think. The WOB or aaa no longer want this to happen. They want Arsenal to lose every match in fact. As they have a dislike for the manager and in some cases this has turned in to real hate. Hating someone is never good, as my later mother used to teach me, and that is something I subscribe to.

The fact is the day that Wenger and Arsenal no longer form a team will be a sad day for me as saying goodbye to the best ever manager is a sad thing.

But from that day on, I will hope that whoever becomes the new manager will do the unthinkable… I will hope that whoever becomes the new manager will do even better than Wenger. Yes I do hope that this new manager will win each and every trophy in the world, the universe and beyond each and every year.

So yes I hope that this manager will completely overshadow all that Wenger has done for Arsenal.

But at the same time…. I really doubt we will find that manager to do all this. I hope we can… but it will be very tough to do.

Apart from a situation in which Arsenal appointed a manager in the mould of Mourinho who I admit would be very hard for me to support because of all the despicable things he has done in the past, then I will just get behind the new manager because…I love Arsenal.

Yes, this AKB loves Arsenal more than Arsène. I know the aaa hate Arsène more than they love Arsenal, if they love Arsenal at all of course. But I just love my club. And will support it.

And I will most of all support it when it needs me. And that is in the days that things don’t go as planned. Then they need our support most. I will stand up for them. Now I do this  and so will I do when we have a new manager.

I will stand up and say: I want Arsenal to win every match. But looking at the sad state of affair in the aaa circles this is for them not a priority at all. I feel sad when we lose. They send us comments with laughing smileys.

They say we support Wenger more than the club and yet it is us who want Arsenal (the club)  to win each match and it is them who want Arsenal to lose their matches. So who really is obsessed by Wenger?

For me this will not change when Wenger is gone but alas for them they have left Arsenal the club already.  They have left the club in their minds and it might not be a bad idea that they will close the door permanently.

I don’t think Arsenal need fans who wish Arsenal to lose any match at all. And me… I wish and hope that the next manager after Wenger will win the quadruple in his first season. And even if he doesn’t…. I will still love my Arsenal. And will still only want them to win each and every match.


Anniversairesthe full index is to be found here

  • 15 March 1960  On transfer deadline day Arsenal’s number two, coach Ron Greenwood, submitted a failed bid for Huddersfield’s 20 years old starlet Denis Law. Unfortunately Denis felt snubbed by Arsenal for not sending manager Swindin.
  • 15 March 1969: Swindon 3 Arsenal 1.  League Cup Final. Arsenal were firm favourites but the bumpy nature of the pitch (following its use for an equestrian event the day before) didn’t help the Arsenal cause.  Bobby Gould got the Arsenal goal. For context see here

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98 comments to Supporting Arsenal, Arsène FC or Wenger FC or all of them at the same time

  • spot on .i go on the gooner and i believe arsene is our best ever manager but time is up for him.its very sad but there are many on there who just ridicule wenger and want arsenal to lose.what narks me is some claim claim they are the real fans .

  • Saadman

    Even though they didn’t win the most trophies under him, Bill Shankly is considered (by most) the greatest manager to have graced the mighty Liverpool. His role at the club was of one who set the founding structures for one of the greatest clubs to have ever graced footbal . Bob paisley may have had more success, but that success would have been unthinkable without Shankly’s futuristic policies.

    Wenger’s role at our club and his contribution to our history will probably be like that. The policies and the philososophy that he’s set forth at the club would, God willing, make it easy for the next manager to win big just as bob Paisley had it easy after shankly had gone.

    I love comparing arsene to legends like Chapman and Shankly. The fact that he is even comparable to them shows how great he is

  • Hec

    The best ever Arsenal manager – Wenger I don’t think so,

    Wenger 19 seasons 9 major trophies

    Graham 9 seasons. 6 major trophies

    I took out charity shield as its not really a major trophy .

    And of course Graham won a UEFA championship cup ,
    Winning in Europe , those were the days !

  • pekky

    I cant make sense out of this . What happen to the most successful before Wenger, where did you drop him and what faith awaits Wenger when you find a new Muse. try and reason with us, why should we be divided because of one person, I say let their be peace amongst fans but let arsen go. I rather say good bye to the greatest manager of all time if it will bring peace among the fans. we have become a disgrace just for one man, fighting amongst ourselves. forming clubs, gangs, withing our great club. we are all fans. let us unite even in the risk of failure on an impending change. we all loved Wenger at some point in time don’t forget that we adored him.what changed like every over bearings father the kids revolt, not out of hate but frustration, failing to identify that is a big problem on your part. an old saying goes, you can’t learn to use the left hand at an old age, I guess you guys are too old and set in your ways. but all the same we love Arsenal football club, we love all the managers that laid the foundation, we love Wenger who built the future , I pray to have some love spared for the Man of the Future. God bless AFC

  • Pekky, the existence of a bunch of people who proclaim themselves to be supporters of Arsenal but who demand the removal of the manager is something that dates back to the 1930s when Arsenal had its first success. In his newspaper column and in the club programme Herbert Chapman expressed his anger at the “boo-boys” as they were called then. Other clubs don’t have this, but Arsenal does.

  • Hec, if you are going to use that argument you really ought to do it properly. If Mr Wenger had a team that was 12th in the league after 28 games, 26 points off the top of the table, would you say that was ok then? That is where we were after the last match Graham had in charge.

    If you saw an Arsenal team that was the lowest scorers in the entire league, would you say that was ok? That was 1992/93.

    If you saw an Arsenal team that went 10 league games winning nil, drawing two and losing eight, would you say that was ok? That was 1986/7

    If you saw an Arsenal team that went 10 league games scoring just one goal, would you say that was ok?

    What you do is remove the fact that during the time of Wenger a stadium costing £400m has been built out of the club’s own funds, and Arsenal has been up against two teams who have wealth far beyond anything imaginable in Graham’s day, and yet he gave us all those things listed above. If the aaa and its allies in the press had been as active in Graham’s time as they are now, he would not have lasted beyond April 8 1987.

  • EPL Referees haters

    The truth is Arsene too is a problem which is obvious don’t get me wrong II am a big fan of his and don’t want him to go but he need to look at himself and ask himself question …. What is really the problem with my team that we cannot win the league for years ? And also he’s to me sometimes biase with his team selection and that is the problem this season. Subbing the player that is doing well eg Campbell always and leaving players that is not doing well for 90mins eg Giroud , Alexis ,Theo Ramsey. Also the timing of his substitution is known to all and predictable for some years now. No winning mentality in some of the players and he can not instill it them bcos he always come out and say we cannot compete with the bags team in the epl and Europe and this comment is sending a message to the boys that the manager is okay with top 2nd, 3rd or 4th place finish and with May be fa cup. This his excuse is venue again bcos Leicester is leading log and they are going to win the league with the 11 points gap and also the neighbor Spurs are also in it . The players in this two team I just mentioned are not as expensive as Arsenal squad so what else will Arsene tell the fans and they will believe again so you can understand the frustration of Arsenal fans all over the world . To me I believe the league is still a possibility if will can win all our remaining games and hope teams above us drop points becos e have the easiest of games in the runnings than Leicetser and Spurs But the big question is …can we will all the remaining fixtures now that the players look disinterested ,no fighting spirit no hunger to win games at all cost and this is the fault of the manager, bench player that is not ready to fight for this club or players that is in poor form eg Giroud especially and play Welbeck always till the end of the season and let us see even if it is for 70 or 75 mins becos of long lay off. And I forget also some of the players are not discipline enough eg Coqueline vs Spurs red card that cost us the 3 points bcos we should have won instead of the 2 all draw. Arsene need to look at all this problem and see how to put them right.

  • serge


    Thanks for answering a question I’ve been saving for a more appropriate moment.
    I was going to ask: In view of the UA mission statement “supporting the club, the players and the management’, do you adopt “The king is dead, long live the king” model when Arsene leaves, even if his replacement were to be the despicable Mourinho, Allardyce or even McClarren (I’m really scraping the barrel here ), or would you have said “no way-I’m not supporting that shit”.
    I know what I’d say.
    PS. There’s rumours already starting.

  • Bleeding gums Murphy

    Good morning gentlemen. I never rejoice an Arsenal loss but I am now of the opinion that it is time for Arsene to resign. I love the man and appreciate all that he has done for our club. I don’t know if that makes me a member of the aaa, if it does then I guess that would probably say more about you than me. I’m curious what the distinction is. I think a big difference with fergie is that he left having just won the league, I feel we are ready to challenge and Arsene would leave us with fantastic foundation for someone fresh to come in with new ideas. Just like Arsene did all those years ago. I sat in my seat Sunday and just wasn’t surprised. That’s sad I guess. But actually quite freeing

  • Proudkev

    I suspect a lot of the more extreme WOB’S will be the type to jump on the back of any manager we have. Today’s WOB’S are Tomorrow’s BOB’S, COB’S, GOB’S, SOB’S, TOB’s. These fans will also be more likely to boo players.

    I support Arsene because he bought a whole new level of excitement and also because he is unfairly judged with the 12 year crap.

    However, I am not obsessed with him. That’s the difference between the WOB’S and me. When he goes I will support the next manager and continue to do so bevause as Walter says, that’s the way some choose to support. The media are our true enemy,with their lies and Ant-arsenal narrative, not other fans.

  • Gouresh

    U cannot judge the manager only on trophies, that’s unfair. There are a lot of managers out there who have done a lot of positive things for the club without winning anything. now AW has won and done a hell of a lot for the club and there is no one who would have done what AW had done in the circumstances that it was done. Football is and will always remain the same its just how you adapt to the tactics or change. What we seem to be missing is plan B, C or D. Now this is not rocket science, it’s there for everyone to see. Its just that we don’t seem to change our style to suite the opponents or situation…..another thing which really really infuriates me and I know that it does to most of you all as well, is the timing for the changes…..what is it with AW and the 70th min changes? If something is not working or players not playing well, why the hell wait that long? Make the changes and influence the result of the game……can someone please explain the rationale behind this?

  • chibyke

    @mr Tony. Thanks for your people have a parable which says”the dancer cannot see his back(to correctly ascertain his dexterity.) I have also heard that working hard and working smart are not the same.(debatable i know.) Heres what i think, arsene’s approach (overtly humane IMO)to management denies us a certain level of ruthlessness needed to excel @ the very top. Change occurs @ a slower pace with may have been very fast when he first came but now is sadly inadequate.mert needs an heir.ox & walcot need to step up.T7,MA & flam need to be replaced.we all can see that. He shld know this! Butwill he ring the needed changes? I get your point. Support no matter what. Which is valid but where a child is crying and pointing fingers to, if his mother isnt there, his father will def be there. I think he has given it his all.and history will never forget that.Truth of the matter is more and more fans are disgruntled with this team.all over the world!his press confrences for the past 2 years now are @ best a bore.(positives,potentials,possibility) These days people leave when the ovation is loudest.i hope he does where there’s some still left.

  • virg

    “Short termism is rife in football coverage these days. From the insatiable desire to learn 5 things from each match day to the pendulum swing in Falcao’s perceived talent level between last summer and this. It’s common to hear strikers’ peaks and troughs talked about in terms of confidence, hunger and desire, as though each change in output is the result of some tweak in the internal machinery of the player’s mentality and training. But how much of this is true and how much can be attributed to statistical noise?”

    The rest is available here:

    And I urge people to read it because statistical analysis of the actual effort put into a match always, always tells you more about the performance of a team and manager than just the final result.

    The media largely disregard performance data and instead continue the same old narratives.

  • Brickfields Gunners

    I’ll still be here , supporting Arsene Wenger and Arsenal FC as he steers the club to further glory over the next 20 years !
    Up the Gunners !

  • Luvyourclub

    No matter how bad things are going then yes I have no problem with wanting a manager to leave or stay but to want your team to lose then that is out of order. Once a result is done then yes be sad or angry but move on, look forward to the next game and just support the club you love no matter who is there.

  • @Swales1968

    This is where is do not get the whole silly anachronism support of the club. For me it’s simple I support Arsenal football club, I support the manager whoever it is, I support whatever player pulls on the famous red & white shirt of the Arsenal. Yes I will moan about the managers tactics sometimes or a players performance etc but when pushed I would back the manager and players because they are playing or managing my club.

    Of course I want Arsenal to win every game and every trophy but I’m to long in the tooth the think that is possible and accept that we will lose games, draw games and go for spells where we do not win trophies. Those gaps make winning those trophies so much better I feel, it was great winning all those cups in the first 10 years of Wengers reign but I remember looking around me and fans were getting rather blasé about it all and just expected it instead of seeing it as something that had to be earned by hard work, talent and a considerable amount of luck.

    So if Wenger does leave it’s a case of the King has gone long live the King and the next manager will get my support its the same with players did I stop supporting or going when one of the greatest ever players retired no I just accepted that Bergkamp going was a part of football and moved on.

    The people who want Wenger out I think are very blinkered in what they are seeing with him, yes he has problems that I would like to see addressed, a striker, his substitutions and his tactics in some games, but they are just my bugbears about him. Are they enough to scream & shout and go on demonstrations to demand his sacking or to raise banners that demotivate the players no.

    The WOB’s as they call themselves take Wenger for an fool, a man who is happy with 4th, a man who is happy to lose games and a man more interested in his £8m wages than the club itself. I truly dispare at these fans and it makes me sad and angry to hear them on the radio, AFTV 😡 And social media spouting this Rubbish. It is still I think the loud minority and fan groups who I think (yes you can call me paranoid) are fed stories and information from people within the club and media who want Stan off the board and Usmaninov in who are stirring this trouble. It has all the hallmarks of DD and his organisation of demonstrations against Terry Neill all those years ago in the Arsenal cafe (allegedly 😉).

  • Gouresh

    To clarify, we do play the “sit back and hit on the break” style but only against teams like Barca or Bayern and that too because they are better than us. Have seen how they play against us? crosses, long shots, quick decisive passes, quick movements in the box, quick passes, so it a mixed bag which distorts our players thinking / focus and making them commit errors. And us? When we play against teams who sit back? its slow, lethargic pointless passes side to side and then back.

  • chibyke

    My wife made a funny but revealing comment recently saying “these days i dont know when your team wins or loses cause your face looks like someone that has just emerged from war each time”. I never enjoy games anymore but i have to watch cause its my arsenal. Smh

  • chibyke – actually the piece was written by Walter, but I’m watching the site at the moment so I’ll respond.

    The issue that several writers of articles on Untold have picked up on is not the issue of Wenger leaving, but Wenger leaving and who comes after him. There is no point putting him out to grass, and then finding either you can’t get a manager or you can’t get a manager who will do better.

    So I take the view that Wenger is still a very good manager, and that there is nothing written in stone that says that Arsenal have a right to win stuff. Most of the time in the club’s history we have not won things, and the one manager before Wenger who won things at his sort of level (Graham) was a) removed from football for a year because of his misbehaviour with transfer money, b) guilty of giving us appalling runs in which we were the lowest scoring team, the team with long runs without a win etc (see above).

    Also on this site we have shown over and over that changing managers is more likely to lead to a decline in the club’s fortunes than an increase.

    So who do we get to make things better? Would someone like to write an article about a few managers who are likely to be available and want to come to Arsenal for the new season (remembering they will be watching the antics of the aaa and their friends in the media and asking themselves if they want to deal with this)? Don’t write about Wenger, write about who you think could come next and who would want to come to Arsenal.

  • virg

    Apart from putting out sides that consistently play the best football, Arsene Wenger has also ventured to develop financial clout and increase the pedigree of Arsenal FC.

    The board knew that the immediate success Arsenal achieved during with Wenger was not only due to his footballing knowledge and ability to set up a team, but also his eye for a player and his ability to get the best out of his players and take them to heights nobody thought they would reach.

    Because of Arsene’s presence and influence at the club we were able to get players like Robert Pires (among others) ahead of Real Madrid as well as having our pick of the best talent the French league had to offer as Kosc stated that many French players think of Arsenal as France’s extra club (and the pick of the lot at that).

    But the board saw how Man United and the other massive European clubs were easily able to outspend Arsenal and they knew that player fees and wages were going to increase wildly and so unless they were able to develop some financial clout of their own, the club would regress back to what it was pre-Wenger.

    What Arsene Wenger has ensure is that Arsenal has etched it’s name amongst the European and World elite, and unlike Newcastle, Leeds or Blackburn, it’s here to stay. As an Arsenal supporter, I will always be thankful to Wenger.

    As a football lover, I will always support Wenger and as someone who analyses stats and facts of the game, I will most always hold off criticism, because I see the real story, not the media version, and so I can truly see what Le Boss has put in.

  • jamiestunner


    I think you brought up an interesting point there.
    Where was Wenger before we signed him?
    It’s a sign of having a defeatist mentality if you refuse to change managers because you’re afraid that the next man may not do so well. Maybe we should no have let Graham go back then since his replacement was a relative unknown.

  • rich

    I think it might be misunderstanding the mentality of a lot of the dirtbags to say they want us to lose.

    There might be some who are genuinely like that, but more would prefer a win on the day, but then have the consolation prize of venting hate, and disassociating themselves from defeat, should we lose.

    For related reasons it’s why I find it so hard to believe they will change that habit with a new manager. These are people who haven’t for a number of years been able to accept any defeat, who have largely rejected the role of luck in football, who do not want to hear about the impact of finances, refs, etc, etc.

    Considering that, it becomes hard to imagine them making a switch for any length of time to patience, circumspection and most importantly to anything which doesn’t involve an unambiguous internal target to blame furiously.

    If it happens, it will be a remarkable sight, a bit like watching someone switch from rage to placidness in an instant. I’m not sure if many will be able to change like that. The habits are surely too ingrained now of reacting to anything but a win with anger and with behaviour which clearly disassociates from the defeat.

    basic stuff but it’s sort of win/win : if we win, fair enough, some pleasure in that; if we lose, I knew it! we’re crap; wouldn’t happen if things were as they should be.

    In a way it’s a kind of self-protection; a way of limiting yourself from the extra pain which comes from extra hope, and of stepping to the side so as not to feel the full force of any blows. They instead of we, them instead of us.

    How many of us don’t think, as we deal with a bad result, that the bad feelings we experience are directly related to the way we hoped beforehand? But we go again and repeat the process. Either because we are dumb or because thats what football, mirroring life, demands.

    I still remember when a kid in primary school said his plan was to expect the worst and you can never be disappointed. At the time I thought ‘whoah, what’s this? That sounds smart’ Really not sure it is,though. If it offers some protection from the worst things it probably makes it harder to get to the best stuff.

    Anyway, I give it five games under a new manager, and even that will be very hard for many and fascinating to behold.

  • Col

    With Kroenke’s prioritisation of asset growth over trophies, it is clear that the next manager may not give all those who want Wenger out what they crave.

    I think Wenger is probably the best manager one could hope for given the club’s aspiration for CL qualification every year, the occasional cup, but not breaking the bank to have a realistic chance of winning either PL or CL. I doubt they will find anyone else who is both good enough and also willing to work within those constraints.

  • Saadman

    All the wobs and aaa I know are addicted to pornography. Coincidence? I think not 😀

  • rich

    Meant to share this the other day. Fascinating stuff from 1995.

    Maybe they just happened upon three calm Arsenal fans to talk to, who are not representative of the prevailing mood, but the contrast between them and the people sky are likely to talk to today is astonishing.

    Just watch first minute unless you want to see another broken leg from the past.

  • virg

    @Swales1968, that’s an interesting theory, and who’s to say it’s not true when one takes into account comments like Col’s which are obviously more influenced by the media more than fact.

  • jamiestunner

    There seems to be so many living in the past among our fans.

    Wenger was awesome 10 years ago, and arguably the best manager in the world between 1996-2007. Since then, he’s not been a top 5 manager. A manager’s job is to manage the footballing side of the club, and since then, two FA cups is not quite enough for a top manager. We have the 4th highest wage bill in the league and we consistently finish 3rd/4th. We have the resources to do better, but we chose to keep the money in the bank. We have a manager who hasn’t overachieved with his squad in almost ten years. Meanwhile the stupid oil money teams are lower than us in the table, we had the most stability and cohesion in the league this season, yet we are behind two teams that actually signed outfielders and lost a lot of cohesion in the process. We have a manager who seems to be the only one who can’t find players that want to play for his team. We have a manger that has decided that we will only sign the very best players in the world. His last three signings are Gab, Cech and Elneny. One is a top class goalkeeper and the other two haven’t played better than midtable quality. We have a manger that doesn’t make subs until after the 65th minute.
    We have a manager that thinks Arleta and Flamini are quality players.
    We have a manager that has us 13th in the form table since the new year. We have a manager that signed Sanogo and played him against Bayern in the UCL (He scored).
    We also have a manager that oversaw the building of the Emirates. A manager that gave us great players like Henry, Viera, Fabregas, Özil, Sanchez, etc.
    We have a manager that has qualified for the champions league every year.
    A manager that came close to winning it in 2006.
    He also hasn’t gone beyond the last 16 in the last 5 or 6 years.

    Wenger will never get us relegated or leave us as a midtable team, but as of right now we are one of the biggest clubs in the world with the ticket prices to show for it and we don’t have a league title in the last ten years.
    The problem with you AKB s is that you view each performance in isolation. In isolation the Watford game is the end of an incredible FA cup run, but go back to 2011, see the similarity with this season, and we’ll be out of the UCL in the round of sixteen again, and we’re closer to fourth place than the league Again. We have a lot of injured players AGAIN. Wenger’s refusal to sign players has cost us AGAIN.

    It’s just a crazy cycle of consistent non-faliure, and non-success. Just stuck watching the same thing unfold every year

  • Pete

    I am becoming increasingly disgusted at the proportion of the Arsenal fanbase venting vitriol and hatred at Arsene Wenger and the club. There is no respect, all thinking is short-term and it is absolutely pathetic. Wenger’s fears that this is impacting the players is all too true.

    Frankly, this section of the fanbase (never supporters) deserves all the failure that is highly likely to follow Wenger. But, sadly, this is my team and my club too.

    To be blunt, if Wenger is forced out, my support will inevitably diminish. Not because I won’t want to give his successor a chance, but because the WOBs will have alienated me.

    And I shall be resigning from AISA after their comments in the press today. Disgraceful.

  • nicky

    This season, for some who follow Arsenal Football Club, is turning out to be an “annus horribilis” (to quote a gracious lady).
    We’ve lost custody of the FA Cup,
    we are poised to get knocked out of the CL and we are fast losing ground in the EPL.
    All supporters of our great Club need an urgent reminder….
    Our glorious history has been peppered with troughs and peaks, each in equal measure.
    Successes clutched from the jaws of defeat and vice versa.
    Titles won but not retained.
    Our record and performances of late, regarded by the fickle few as poor and inconsistent, are the subject of envy by many.
    A post mortem is carried out after death (i.e. at the end of our season) not before.

  • Samuel Akinsolas Adebosin

    With the victory which Leicester had yesternight over the struggling Newcastle Utd, I think one can conclude that Arsenal are out of this season title race. For no Premier League club has won the title with a maximum total of 79 points in the past 9 years.

    Save any mother of all title challenge collapse, Leicester are likely going to be crowned the 2015/16 Barclays Premier League Champions and not Spurs.

    Arsenal have been playful in their title challenge this season as they look not to be very serious in their title campaign but playful with their uncharacteristic dropping of points here and there which they ought to have collected.

    However, Arsenal are likely to finish 2nd in the table this season. And that will be an improvement on their 3rd place finished last season. And also so, because Spurs will never finish above Arsenal in the table as long as St. Tottenringham’s Day is still reigning.

    The Gunners still have a chance to save the Boss from been untimely forced away from Arsenal against his wish. The Gunners start doing that tomorrow at Nou Camp by beating Barca with the beating that will knock them out of this season Ucl in this 2nd leg of round of 16 knockout stage. And then go all the way to win the Ucl to quieten all the anti-Wenger must go campaigners.

    So, to me, it’s left for the Gunners to save the Boss’ job and also make some of them to remain at Arsenal come next season.

  • Jalan

    Watching Leicester tonight showed exactly whats missing from us….the effort, workrate off the ball and game management were superb! As you say Roy, whilst Mahrez and Vardy get the limelight, others are underated yet every bit as important…..Kante is exceptional every time I watch him and the ground he covers is unbelievable!

  • jamiestunner

    Sorry Pete,
    I’m sure you love Arsenal more than you love Wenger

  • Mandy Dodd

    For the George Graham revisionists, don’t forget ultimately, he was the author of his own departure. He did what they were all doing, but he should have known, at Arsenal, you get punished.
    The AAA. Can have their opinions, but fear some are built on the shifting sands in the media, and stoked up by a lot of mischievous Spuds fans on their sites.
    Think we might see a bit of a reaction….non violent of course…against the AAA next home game.

  • Pete

    jamie – Of course I love Arsenal more than I love Wenger. I have been a supporter since 1971. But I have contempt for the disloyal backstabbers and find it increasingly difficult to be associated with them. It is about my fellow “fans” – not who the manager is.

  • Pete

    Mandy – there has already been a violent reaction after the Watford game.

  • Polo

    @ Gouresh, ‘what is it with AW and the 70th min changes? If something is not working or players not playing well, why the hell wait that long? Make the changes and influence the result of the game……can someone please explain the rationale behind this?’ I believe the below is why.

    1. It is well known that AW rely a lot on statistics, and statistically players tend to lose focus/stamina around the 70 minutes mark, it’s not just AW use the 70 minutes subs, many clubs use it. I think if you look at goals scored a lot are scored late especially around the 70-85 minutes mark. Oh have you notice a lot of ‘Super Subs’ lately?

    2. He might have contractual obligations with players in regards to game times. But I think it’s more about point 1 above.

  • Williams

    wenger is d best maneger we have had, but not the best we will ever have. he came in and has done beter than our previous managers. so someone can come in and do better than him too, cus we aaa hoping 4 a better tomorrow.and not a better yesterday. my question is hw long will we be hoping 4 beter yesterday all in d name of building a stadium n giving us an amount of money they think we wil never have. in exchange of happiness, love, respect, n pride. but of more disgrace in our matches n results. you gave us wealth now we need happiness n pride. just have 2 stop it dis way. please understand…

  • Josif

    I pretty much agree with Walter. How can someone claim to love Arsenal, want Arsenal to lose and then use that wanted defeat for own agenda is beyond me.

    Where I differ to many people here is, in fact, lack of fear once Arsene decides to leave. He is a man of honour and won’t leave us as a sinking ship but when our ship gets safely in his last harbour.

    He will leave his heir a team full of players in their best years or close to them. Even if he leaves next summer, his heir will have Cech, Bellerin, Chambers, Coquelin, Ramsey, Wilshere, Ozil, Alexis, Ox, Theo, Iwobi, Elneny, Jeff…and experienced outfield players like Cazorla, Monreal, Per, Kos, Giroud. Let’s not forget that Golden Glove 2013-14 joint winner who might be a bit crazy but he is a 26-year-old goalkeeper which is pretty young for that position.

    Also, Arsene’s heir won’t have to build a new stadium and spend a decade on paying for it at the expense of our trophy room.

    Finally, our board will have a good example (smart people learn from other’s mistakes, fools learn from their own) of Manure and what went wrong with Moyes’ appointment.

    To conclude:

    -the biggest proof of Arsene’s greatness is the fact we SHOULD NOT be afraid of his departure as he will leave a good squad with very few holes to plug and a stadium mostly paid out.

  • jamiestunner

    Players losing focus is not what he’s talking about. He’s talking about not changing players having a poor game until the 70th minute. Or bringing on a player to change our style of play. These don’t require waiting until the 70th minute

  • thierryhenry22

    Having a chat with my step dad yesterday who remembers an away game in the 70s or 80s where he had to get a draw or win to stay in Division 1 (I can’t remember the exact details), and we did. The fans celebrated that we had stayed in the league.

    He said he remembers rainy nights at Highbury getting soaked in your seats while the team dug out a one-nil win or lost to Middlesbrough etc.

    I’ve been to 14 games at the Emirates stadium since 2008 and sunday is the first time i’ve seen us lose! 14 games over 8 years and yet sunday was the FIRST time i’ve seen us lose in the flesh. I am very very grateful to support this club!

  • WalterBroeckx

    I see a lot of fans, but very little supporters.

  • thierryhenry22

    Walter (and Tony and the team) you’re doing amazing work right now and i’m completely with you in blocking certain anti-Arsenal fans from posting on here. If they have stats and reasonable arguments and zero insults then fine. But those anti-Arsenal fans who post nonsense hyperbole on here with a little insult at the end should not be posted because it’s trolling.

  • Gouresh

    Polo, accepted, but stats are just a guidance and cannot be considered as gospel. what we are looking for is urgency. generally the manager should not wait till the player is tired or losses focus around that time. if things need shaking up, they should be and the stats should be binned.

  • jamiestunner

    Touche Walter

  • Polo

    @Jamiestunner, ok and how many teams/managers change their starting lineups midway through a game? I mainly see substitutions done mostly around the 70 minutes mark in matches even if the team is behind or leading. Most of the time you see substitutions midway in matches are due to injuries or a player get red card.

    Now, if you change a player midway in the match what would the repercussions be with the substituted player? He will not be happy and could lead to dressing room unrest. Look at Girouds reaction when he was sacrificed/substituted against Chelsea after Per’s red card. Look at Alexis or Ozil reactions when they get substituted not happy looking and that’s around 70-80 minutes played, imagine if AW substituted them midway in a match what would their reaction be? It’s well known AW don’t like conflicts especially with his players.

  • GoonerDave

    I have massive respect for Arsene and what he has done for our club. I also think that as long as we have a chance, we must try to win the league. That means getting behind the team and being united in our support of Arsenal. This in-fighting is making us a laughing stock.
    That said, if we come up short and continue to play in a rudderless, weak-willed fashion, then Arsene should seriously think about handing the reins to fresh blood. I’m sure AW can see the unrest and would be willing to resign at the end of the season if it continues or gets worse.
    Personally, I’d hate to see him hounded out of the club under a cloud of hatred and I fail to see the logic in doing anything now but supporting the team – there are a lot of points still up for grabs. Leicester may have a decent lead, but we don’t have to make it easier for them.
    My own view is that Arsene Wenger may not be in charge next season. If that happens, I hope that we make a clever, forward thinking appointment and that the fans can unite again.

  • jamiestunner

    Just the most recent epl games because Im busy, and don’t have time to look through the whole season:

    62’Jordan Veretout – Andre Green
    78’Christian Eriksen-Thomas Carroll
    70’Carles Gil-Scott Sinclair
    87’Dele Alli-Ryan Mason
    90’Erik Lamela-Nacer Chadli

    45’Nathan Redmond-Graham Dorrans
    58’Wilfried Bony-Raheem Sterling
    67’Wesley Hoolahan-Dieumerci Mbokani
    77’Jesus Navas- Kelechi Iheanacho
    67’Patrick Bamford-Cameron Jerome
    85’Bacary Sagna- Pablo Zabaleta

    Bournemouth – Swansea

    46’Dan Gosling-Eunan O’Kane
    60’Wayne Routledge- Bafetimbi Gomis
    66’Benik Afobe- Lewis Grabban
    80’Modou Barrow – Marvin Emnes
    76’Max-Alain Gradel – Marc Pugh
    84’Leroy Fer – Sung-Yueng Ki

    Obviously I didn’t watch the games, and don’t know the context of the subs, we can safely assume that most of them were intended to change the game. Note that each game had at least one sub before 65 minutes, so your idea is really just plain wrong.

  • Col

    “The issue that several writers of articles on Untold have picked up on is not the issue of Wenger leaving, but Wenger leaving and who comes after him. There is no point putting him out to grass, and then finding either you can’t get a manager or you can’t get a manager who will do better.” – Tony Attwood, above

    Whilst this is all true, I think there is another factor: time. Even the most enthusiastic Wenger supporters must recognise that even without the current difficulties, the end is getting near, if for no other reason than that the man is just over 3 years short of his seventieth birthday. If one accepts that he is unlikely to carry on much beyond this, then there are perhaps 2 or 3 years at most to engage with the process of finding a successor.

    There is an urgent need for succession planning, whatever one’s view on Arsene Wenger, and whatever the outcome of this season. Manchester United didn’t appear to do any for Ferguson, with consequences that are clear to all. The argument that there is ‘no-one better’ becomes irrelevant in this context, because someone will have to be found at some point soon. My view is the club should be actively engaged with this now. I can also think of no-one better to advise on succession than Arsene Wenger himself, so if the process starts soon, this could happen – keep ignoring it for 2 or 3 years, and the inevitable change may be much more difficult.

  • laos gooner

    It is a shame the club can not choose the supporters. I would not allow P**s Morgan anywhere near the club. The fickle and vitriolic way he lambasts the club at all levels is not what I envisage as supportive. We are all capable of emotional moments regarding results but as in all walks of life the intelligent wait until emotions subside before commenting. I wonder if these people think that nobody at the club has noticed. What happens at other clubs? The spuds haven’t won anything in years and yet they have a positive atmosphere. Are these people really trying to be worse than the spuds? Are they spuds in disguise? Why else would you destabilise The Arsenal? Lose the spuditude, lose the spuditude.

  • Polo

    @ Gouresh, I think AW has full trusts in his players to do the job and I think he gives them the necessary time to do it, statistically 70 minutes is when players (that’s for both teams), lose stamina/focus so it’s the best time to make either an attacking change as defenders are feeling tired or you change your defensive team.

    I understand about being pragmatic in matches but in my opinion AW thinks statically doing subs at around 70 minutes works hence he stick to it. If you look at his win:loss percentage it is excellent.

    I believe it’s not the tactics that’s the problem as we create a lot of chances to score but it’s the finishing that let us down. Last season we scored 71 goals this season so far it’s only 46 goals, and Leicester is currently on 53 goals, had our players scored like last season I think we would be leading the league.

  • Polo

    @ Jamiestunner, ok let see the subs.

    Villa vs Spurs – Spurs were leading 2-0 before the sub, and the sub made was giving Andre Green a youngster to play his first match in PL.

    Norwich vs City – Redmond was subbed off due to an ankle injury.

    Bournemouth vs Swansea – on 34 minutes Gosling received a yellow card for a bad foul. At 45 minutes Gosling made another foul. I guess Eddie subbed him because he might get a red card in a must win match to avoid being dragged in the relegation battle.

  • Peccy,,
    In strollers time as our manager , finishing 2nd or 10th there was very little difference , so in they days ,as there was no financial benefit from being 2nd. To 10th.the final position meant nothing.
    I can assure you George Graham had / has a mentality , that gets results .

    Graham is Arsenals most successful manager , he put more happiness into the Arsenal party than Wenger has, but yet again I can write about Betrtie Mee and in fact Billy Wright , there is Arsenal supporters that have never known life before the German/ Frenchman Wenger , time for awe get to realise Arsenal belongs to us and not his tool to make himself 8 million a year working for his billionaire master

  • Polo

    @ Jamiestunner, I said most of the time not all of the time.

  • Williams, and my question remains the same. Who on earth are we going to get to come to the club now that the fuss some supporters are making has become a matter of debate.

    We know from the statistics that only a small percentage of new managers manage to make a success of the club they move to – so it has to be some one incredibly special who is available now. But who will take the job?

  • Hectot – we have had the Graham is the most successful manager debate too often – this is the last one I am allowing through. Anyone else wants to say it, you must supply evidence. We’ve heard the one about x trophies in y years, and the numerous arguments against that position. Just saying the same thing over and over is boring.

  • GoingGoingGooner

    Some Arsenal fans remind me of a 10 yr old on the park who after losing claims, “We just let you win.” as a way to somehow retain his pride by never admitting he was wrong. Or, because he found losing so painful that he had to hedge his bets by proclaiming his skepticism aloud, and certainly after a defeat, even though he was secretly wanting to win.

    I guess many of us on this site are not afraid to openly say that we support Arsenal, and by extension Arsene Wenger, acknowledging that this opens us up to abuse from those less willing to wear their hearts on their sleeves.

  • Steely O'Leary

    I see many excuses and very little reality.

  • Kenneth Widmerpool

    What do you mean by reality?

  • Gouresh

    we all know that AW is an eternal optimist. We aren’t out of the CL until we are out. lets all keep the faith. I will remind myself to break a coconut before the game as it’s a Hindu tradition that if you want a successfully venture you do this. It’s like a sacrifice to the gods. Hope the gods are happy with this.

  • jamiestunner

    “Williams, and my question remains the same. Who on earth are we going to get to come to the club now that the fuss some supporters are making has become a matter of debate.We know from the statistics that only a small percentage of new managers manage to make a success of the club they move to – so it has to be some one incredibly special who is available now. But who will take the job?”

    Please answer this question honestly. Did you think Wenger was a good choice for our club before his signing was announced?
    If yes, then I have nothing to say, and admit that you’re much smarter than most people I’ve ever heard of.

    If no then you’re basically admitting that Wenger’s time is up but he should not be replaced because you don’t think there’s any manager anywhere in the world that can succeed with our squad and since Wenger was so good between 1996-2007 he should just remain. In that case, I have nothing to say to you because you’re even more pessimistic than the WOBs you hate some much

  • Loyal AFC Fan

    Mr Attwood

    “during the time of Wenger a stadium costing £400m has been built out of the club’s own funds” . Really ? I wonder what the £200 million of long term debts are for then ?

  • Loyal – for repaying to the banks out of the clubs own funds and debts for the purchase of players – these are normally paid to clubs over the lifetime of the player’s contract. Sorry, I thought everyone knew that.

  • Just a regular reminder – name calling isn’t allowed on this site, and when spotted leads to a ban from the site. Sorry about that but it just gets in the way of any attempt at a debate.

  • rich

    Good to know it’s not just us amateurs outside the game who can flounder when moving from general fury and condemnation to the specifics of how best to proceed.

    Scholes, as harsh a critic as you’ll find, has put forward his suggestion to improve things at Utd : Pogba, Modric, Varane.

    At least he’s right in that Utd could probably afford,at a squeeze, to bring all three in (£175 mill?) but still looks a big fail on the realism front and leaves you waiting for realistic suggestions.

  • goonersince72

    Walter and Tony

    Why do you allow this ridiculous ‘debate’ to rage on, column after column? Anyone who wants Arsenal to lose, for any reason, is not a supporter of the club. Period.

  • proudkev

    Loyal AFC Fan

    Mate, I think you have fallen into the trap of believing you understand business accounting.

    This is the problem with a lot of the argument about the stadium and our finances, a narrative gets recycled by fantasy accountants that is in fact total rubbish.

    One of the best is that somehow the stadium was built without any financial restraints on Wenger. That is usually a rib tickler. The next is the way ‘cash reserves’ gets translated by fantasy football accountants as a sum available for transfer fees.

    A lot of the WOB argument is based on lies and half truths, from the ninsense about Geroge Graham to finances.

  • Steely O'Leary


    I’ve supported Wenger from day one and am of sound enough mind to of realize he’s at the end of the tether. Realities are we need a manager operating in the now, better yet future. Think Wenger circa the mid to latter 90s, not one stuck there.

    More reality:

    Over the last 14 moths he’s neglected transfer windows when our financials have dictated otherwise, put faith in players not up to task speaking of spirit and cohesion like a politician selling something rotten but pressing forth all the same. Complained about financial doping, FFP and lack of player availability, an argument thats been shot to bits this season. Its all on the table. Quite possible well see Leicester, Tottenham and maybe West Ham with European’s elite in 2016-17. Think well probably squeeze third once the titles dead and buried and pressures are off, well start to perform again. Thats telling.

    Those two FA cups are special, but doesn’t negate fact were clearly underperforming this season. Cech has saved us points yet were at a lesser total than previous.

    I find it sad that Wenger’s going to be savaged for the remainder of the season, coming from from within. But those are the stakes, not all can wander with horse blinder’s and give blind faith.

  • Loyal AFC Fan

    Mr Attwood, that is not actually true. The transfer fee for a player is rarely , if ever spread over the length of a players contract. For instance the transfer fee for Mezut Ozil was made up of 24m Euro (sept 2013), 15m Euro (sept 2014) and 6m Euro (Sept 2015)plus a potential further 6m Euro based on champions league Qualification. Sorry I thought everyone knew that

  • rich


    There’ve been absolutely monumental changes in the football landscape and in the information landscape, for football and all aspects of life besides in the last twenty years.

    I’d say those changes make it a lot less likely that there are managers out there who are an excellent bet but whose names are not currently well known to most football followers.

    You still have a point in that the Rennes manager, or Villarreal manager, or any manager anywhere could be an outstanding candidate without me realising and without enough people realising for his name to gain serious attention among football followers.

    It’s a possibility, and should it be the case chances are people within football, including Arsenal people, would be aware of this candidate. If that’s the case, I suppose that counts as good news.

    But supposing the names being put forward represent the reality of the situation, what then?

    Worth remembering that Wenger didn’t join after a couple of years at Nancy, he did so with 12 successful years under his belt and having spent a number of years battling a corrupt Marseille for the title.

    So very rough equivalents would be people who have contested the title in France in recent years. There’ll be a number of those if you take it back to about ten years- Lyon managers, Lille, Marseilles (Deschamps), Bordeaux (Blanc), even Montpellier. I don’t know all their names and am not going to look them up but I rely on the fact I really think I’d have heard of them if there were excellent candidates in there.

    I know one went to Roma where things looked good for a while before not looking so good and the sack

  • Loyal, I think you might be taking information from the leaked Ozil contract – the one that says Real M have a buy back. There has been some denial about what was in that leaked report, and certainly the Daily Mail who ran that story had different figures from yours, but no, the payments are generally made across the life of the contract. However these amounts are a detail compared to the main source of the money you queried – the repayment of bank loans.

  • Funny, I published my reminder about not being abusive to other commentators and the next five comments all had abuse in them. Ah well.

  • chibyke

    @ tony,who will replace Wenger?”do not let the name of a dog that your father is yet to buy be the cause of a fight between siblings” when he leaves, it becomes pertinent.but just for sake of discourse,Here’s my list…Tuchel, DB10,Arteta plus the whole lot of unknowns and greats who would be available next year.I know that Wenger won’t be forced out.i would love him to go on a splurge next season and sign out with @ least the Epl & UCL?
    But he needs to go imo.

  • Anyone who wants a team to lose is no supporter of that team, end of.
    I support Arsenal FC so therefore I support and will continue to support the manager and the team he picks.
    Before pointing fingers at anyone take a long hard look at yourself and ask those who want Arsenal to lose matches if they are not part of the problem that we find ourselves in.
    Those players should be able to go out on their one pitch feeling that the crowd are 100% behind them but what we are seeing on the pitch is a result in part to that abuse
    It helps no one at all with the division of fans,and the rest of the premier league are laughing at us and I don’t blame them. Either support this team the way they deserve or go to another club because the only thing you are doing is helping other teams and if you can’t see this them I feel sorry for you
    When another manager comes in I will give him my full support as I do AW but history will tell just what this man has done for the team you profess to love and follow.

  • Loyal AFC Fan

    Proud Kev

    Not sure what you mean. don’t believe I said that I understood Business Accounting

  • Col

    If Wenger was forced out out he would not be replaced by a manager who would suddenly go out and spend lots of money. The board don’t want it, and even if the manager did, the terms of the appointment would preclude it. Unless Kroenke decides to sell up, I wouldn’t expect any change.

  • Paul the gooner

    I find all of this rather sad.The media are loving this.They stoke it up and some very sad people follow.Why? Because it is a modern trait, it is fashionable.Lets all put talkshite on,read the Sun(Howard),(Posh boy Winter,Times) and follow.They are always looking at tomorrows headline.
    I do sometimes ask myself, how many of the anti AW people actually support Arsenal.It is far too easy to phone a radio station or hit a keyboard.AW should see his contract out, with ALL of our support.
    I think it was Rich, who posted on here, that the days of the big Clubs winning the league may be over.I tend to agree.

  • Menace

    Even with the slope on which we play, I still think Arsenal will win the EPL. Luck is bound to change & the posts & bar will not matter as the nets bulge. Despite the truly dispicable idiots who criticise without care, I think Wenger will contain his ire & continue to victory. Nothing is a given but everything that can be won still has to be played for.

    I want Arsenal to fight for it all with sporting mentality & God knows we will overcome.

  • arsene wenger is our greatest ever manager has led us into the new stadium and i will never slag him off and i have the utmost respect for him but players simply aren’t performing as a cohesive balanced unit too many defenders turning backs not closing down shots players making poor decisions on the ball and positionally.for the first time ever i believe arsene has lost the ability to get the best out of the players and some gave lost faith in him .in answer to your question tony i believe ronald koeman is the right man at the right time at the end of this season.

  • John L

    From my own observations of matches, backed by the thorough analyses provided in the referee reviews on this site, it is clear that for every season from at least the Birmingham game when Eduardo had his leg shattered that even the most conservative estimate would conclude that bad refereeing decisions have cost Arsenal at least a net 10 points. Had it not been for this, we would have won the title by a comfortable margin in most years. What would the media have found then to criticise M. Wenger?

    Yes, our performances have been below par on occasions, but that is true for every team. Whilst others may be complimented for “winning ugly” we are denied that opportunity because we are effectively playing against 12+ men in most fixtures.

  • Gord


    > Former SAFA chief executive officer Leslie Sedibe has been given a five-year ban from all football activities as well as a fine of 20,000 Swiss francs.

    > Steve Goddard and Adeel Carelse, who each served as SAFA’s head of referees, have been given suspensions of two years.

    See where the money goes to fix matches? Head of referees. Will the police and whorenalists get off their butts and investigate 😈 Mike Riley!

  • i am an arsenal fan admiring of wenger but like differing opinions go on online gooner there are a number of so called fans who ridicule all about the club hate arsene wenger and want arsenal to lose and enjoy defeats !personally i think it is time for change but any mild defense of arsene wenger on that site is met with being ridiculed he is the devil to them.very very sickening and sad .

  • Steely O'Leary

    Small minority “hate” Wenger.

    I’d say most hate the state were currently in or our tired approach or Wenger’s contempt for transfer windows but are fully aware and appreciative for all he’s done for the club. Most would likely ask Wenger to do the right thing now, put Arsenal first and make way for change.

  • Kenneth Widmerpool

    Steely-Im kack at dialectics and like a quiet discussion more than a debate, and in our current climate this is all I can offer, but we arent going to agree,so its probably a waste of energy.In fact wouldnt it be great all the energy and thought that goes into the media side of football being put into our real social problems?
    I agree we are under performing and I dont think anyone that supports AFC isnt upset.Its now snowballing out of control,which is not good for the team who I still want to win as much as possible. AW or not, AFC is the most important.And we are still in a season at the ending and the team need our support.They arent getting it,or not enough.I really admire the fans going out to Barca,the club should do something for them to say thanks.
    I appreciated you having written back in a decent manner with some interesting points. Everyones frustrated and down and quite shocked. The sad part is Im sure Wenger is as well, and if he isnt then I cannot support him, and Im sure he would accept that. Personally I expected Watford to be stubborn and maybe grab something,even when theyve lost this season recently they have made a game of it. To me it was never going to be a roll over, though it was one of those games that could have been. And the Cup is the Cup and anything can happen.Even if the Cup doesnt seem to mean anything anymore,at least for some until need be.
    Whats worse is the team are stuck in some strange place, they are nervous at the Emirates now which is not good. Swansea knew that and even went to the press to explain how they could exploit the crowd to go against the team.
    Still not sure what you mean by reality? I dont mean that to irritate you,but just that I think reality is a relative thing. A massive structure without objectivity, of billions of trillions of equal yet opposite polemics all in flux. Those realities you gave examples of are no different than the other realities that people here argue back.The points you make are fair enough, but constitute only an aspect not a whole. Many can answer or counter point, which is what UA usually does, and some of what you write is speculation, and Im sure no Arsenal fan caught up in the illusion of football would like to see(ie the Spuds above us). Of course whatever I say, I cannot defend the poor run,the loss against Watford and now the enormous but not impossible task of Barca away-of course Im going to get fried if I do. But Im shocked this has happened. As the team and manager seemed to be too.
    As an aside, I think we are caught up in an illusion called football,to me its kind of nuts in a way.And this can make people be of extreme opinion say vile things and act in a manner that they wouldnt normally,especially if divorced from their logic and rolling around in their hurt emotions when they dont get what they want.The real problem is ourselves.All of us, our own minds, frightened of being a “loser” or “nothing”.Well thats the risk of football,and nothing doesnt exist. Its that kind of risk that can make it exciting, or horrible depend on your ability to digest things.
    I also think its easy to suggest this or that or whomever from our desks or armchairs.Footballs much more complex than any blog could clarify and until the bloody robots take over and footballs just sterile then we are stuck with the human,and the human mistakes and the human excellence and unique skills . I personally cant look into the future. But others are sure as sure of their opinions, and hindsight has left some looking a bit myopic. Speculation is just groping in the dark but thats part of the boring side of football, the bit that fills in for the real lack of playing time.
    All life is a system of view points looking through prisms thats all.LG and UA arent really the enemies they trick themselves into think they are but seem to be different sides of a coin or a larger situation. Often people come on from there and say its a cult here, but the same can be said of LG,its just a case of perspective, we cant always see that though as we all feel “we are the one, the objective one and the person in the right”.Its sort of sad. Neither are a cult, just a place of perspective and thought and differing emotions and reactions.
    I agree we need a manager operating in the moment ( which is what I think you mean by “now”). Im as baffled as you as to this season, Spurs Leicester and not being top when it seemed our year. This team was the team of calendar 2015 and AW’s belief in them was high. Why would it not be? You wrote he had contempt for the transfer market but its that all there is to that situation? Again how do we get to the bottom of what really is, through prisms and language usage? Do any of us really know the working of the club.I dont.
    I understand what you mean about horses/blinkers, but I disagree.He built a team that showed they could do it, so I dont think personally he was so misguided. Neurologically its the only way to of achieving-having belief.I realise the counter argument to that, and again we hit the LG/UA logger head. In a relative world in flux who can be right? Stats can be swung either way. Ideas of what success is can be relative too.No, really it is all a perception of one kind or another.
    Originally you wrote you can see “excuses” but “excuses” only exist forma perspective and really you see defense where theres attack and thats the duality that run between places like LG and UA. They arent going to be healed. How can they? One is adamant hes bad for the club and the other side says the opposite. But those making “excuses” have another perspective thats all,and form that side of the fence they arent excuses more explanations,intolerable to the WOB I suppose,and they have their own structures in their minds. I think many anti Wenger people have only known him as manager and felt humiliated by MC and Chelsea, and I suppose that must be frustrating, but for those of us who have been around longer he has transformed the club beyond my imagination at least. And this was meant to bloody be our year!
    I wish the banner hadnt have come out as it has affected the team, and I wish the Emirates was a bit more supportive and less intolerant when a player fucks up. My worry isnt Wenger or our players ability, but the psychological nature of the team. This is a team who can attack and defend well but they’ve become nervous and can go out of position, as if they are to aware of being watched and therefore too conscious of their play, which is a disaster for any player. After the (excellent) second goal by Watford the lads just seemed so stunned, bit like Leeds in the 1973 Cup Final. And panicked on the inside,trying to hard but that came across as not playing hard enough.As laughable that sounds, but I had a large experience as a player and do know what Im going on about. Been it and seen it. But as a player support does mean a lot. Theo the hero goal scorer of the FAC is now widely despised and the calls are for “out”. Im not much of capitalist/Thatcherite so I suppose Im easy to ridicule and shoot down. I dont like what I see in the world, the greed,the hatred and the dumb culture and so much hatred in football. But others like all that.
    No matter what anyone thinks those are top athletes who are super skilled in physics.Its easy for us to sit behind a keyboard and slagg them off playing God with our comments, but why arent any of us down there? Sometimes I find it irritating that people who could never play or do anything are so expert about what they could do.Im not accusing you, but its my own issue. But football at that level isnt easy or to even make it into suc a team. They make it look easy(or bad depending on your perspective),it really isnt.
    Imagine the fear,pressure and panic of Welbeck as he tried to squeeze that goal in that missed against Watford. Imagine how he feels.Whenever he thinks about it he will try to put it in for years to come.Bit like Gordon Smith in 1983.
    I dont fear change, I am fearful of some wanker coming and not building on things. I just dont want us to become another shitty cheque book Xfactor/Kim Kashadian club, I like it that players can develop and we still have the human touch and the club has something left a bit like a soul. Other disagree and are desperate for the orgasm of endless victory(it doesnt exist) than I am-Im in come rain or shine even if we became bankrupt and went back to playing at Plumstead common,that to me wouldnt be all bad as Im related to the people that started the club.
    I just think debates between LG/UA are endless circles. I think the WOB are too hard, with too much agenda,but thats their feeling,it will take years for them to get rid of itBut its easy to bend all your hatred and argument al the time for years against one person,but it still remains only a part of an equation. Its a shame that the FAC doesnt mean anything anymore,yet Georgie Grahams LC’s do and his FAC’ does too.How sad it is to compare managers, its bullshit, they have both been important parts of AFC.Not even similar but different and integral part of the one. The big illusion of the men kicking the ball in between some posts and us lot taking it too seriously all in the subjectivity of relativist through the prism of biography and hindsight, creamed off with speculation.
    We want to feel happy through football.Well its a tough gamble to invest our emotions in.
    TBH I thought Pep would come to us after AW finished his contract, but then I also thought this would be our year for the league. So much for speculation.
    So you might ask me what do I thinks going wrong by these poor form? Injuries then struggles then losses then loss of confidence then more losses then media/fanbase anger and now a very difficult time. But I would say that as I like Wenger! (weird winky icon).Southampton away was the shitter.Before that it was looking good. But I do know the counter. How can I not?
    Let hope for dignity and a win in Barca as a thrashing is going to have an affect on the players more than anything and theres till lots to play for in the league.
    Wenger will be gone soon, but one day so will we all,like our opinions. I havent answered directly but its all in there.Im not an AKB, but I really like and respect the man and still think hes got it,despite the poor run(which makes me a laughing stock in some quarters) and I believe the players can click and be truly great.

  • Loyal AFC, you are debating points of detail which I am not sure are of interest to most people on the site. I don’t think we should take this further.

    Kev can we leave it here. It is a rather dull point, as is the argument about whether taking out a bank loan and repaying the bank is the same as paying out of your own funds. If Loyal AFC wants to believe he is right, let’s leave it at that.

  • Percy

    Guess what? I’ve looked at our last ten games and in only one has the first substitution occurred after minute seventy. In fact the mean of the ten numbers is 59.5 minutes and the median value works out at 63 minutes. Amazing what BS gets trotted out in the cause of false preconception when confirmatory bias is allowed to run riot.

  • John

    Tony if name calling is a ban why is menace still posting ????

  • Jerry

    Excellent article Walter!
    It’s amazing how some people can claim to support Arsenal, but want Arsenal to lose so that the manager can get fired, and still not see what’s wrong with that. The old saying stands true: common sense is not so common.

    If you’re a supporter of the club, then you need to support the whole club, can’t just pick and choose which parts to support like it is a buffet line! COYG, let’s beat Barcelona tomorrow!

  • Brickfields Gunners

    Was about to give my 2 cents worth about Menace’s name calling which I personally find just and fitting as well as side splittingly funny and apt , when I remembered this particular cartoon that I had read more than 40 years ago . I believe it was from the book , ‘ You’re a good man Charlie Brown ‘.

    While searching for the images , I came across this , and am sharing the relevant part of it with all you regulars , as well as giving a very big BLEAH !! to all ‘them’ scum .

    Snoopy,Moses and God – A sermon preached at St.Stephen’s Uniting Church, Macquarie
    Street, Sydney on Sunday 19 October 2014, by David Gill.

    ‘ Back in the days when we read newspapers instead of computer screens, we could look
    forward to a daily diet of comic strips. My favourite was “Peanuts”.
    Remember “Peanuts”?It featured Charlie Brown, who was one of life’s victims;
    Lucy, one of life’s irritants; and their dog Snoopy, one of life’s wise commentators.

    In one strip, Snoopy’s doghouse had burned to the ground. A great tragedy. He’d lost
    his record collecCon, his pool table, even his Van Gogh painting.

    We see Snoopy siMng there, surveying the ruins, when Lucy turns up and decides to
    give him a burst of religion. “You know why your doghouse burned?” she says. “Because you sinned, that’s why”.

    Snoopy responds by sticking out his tongue and saying “Blah!”.

    In the last frame we see him thinking to himself “Her kind deserves to be blah-­‐ed”.
    I’m with Snoopy on that. Shonky religion does deserve to be named and shamed.
    And there is an awful lot of that kind of religion around right now.’

    And Brother Menace , carry on name calling ! Cheers !

  • Brickfields Gunners

    To those that are still with me , especially if you are a Peanuts fan , check out what it says about you and your favourite characters .

    Mine is of course is Snoopy – sticking my tongue at all those morons !


    You’re a daydreamer and a show-stealer. Seriously, Snoopy used to be just an average beagle, but over the course of the comic strip and the animated specials, he evolved into a guy who got to go on fantastical adventures fueled only by his imagination. You probably have a rich fantasy life, too. If you picked Snoopy, you may also have more than one distinct side to your personality: You’re Joe Cool one day, the Red Baron the next. You also bring joy to the world with your signature “happy dance.” (If you’re not already doing this, you should start ASAP. People love the happy dance.)

    Check it out at –

  • Brickfields Gunners

    Moving on from comic characters to a comical character –

    A Presidential tragedy?

    During one of his campaign trips Donald Trump is visiting an elementary school and goes into one of the classes. They are in the middle of a discussion related to words and their meanings.

    The teacher asks Mr. Trump if he would like to lead the discussion of the word “Tragedy.” So he asks the class for an example of a tragedy.

    One little boy stands up and offers: “If my best friend who lives on a farm, is playing in the field and a runaway tractor comes along and knocks him dead, that would be a tragedy.”

    “No,” says Mr. Trump, “that would be an accident.”

    A little girl raises her hand: “If a school bus carrying 50 children drove over a cliff, killing everyone inside, that would be a tragedy.”

    “I’m afraid not,” explains the exalted businessman. “That’s what we would call a great loss.”

    The room goes silent. No other children volunteer. Mr. Trump searches the room.

    “Isn’t there someone here who can give me an example of a tragedy?”

    Finally at the back of the room, a boy raises his hand. In a quiet voice he says: “If a private jet carrying you was struck by a missile and blown to smithereens, that would be a tragedy.”

    “Fantastic!” exclaims Mr. Trump, “That’s absolutely right. And can you tell me why that would be a tragedy?”

    “Well,” says the boy, “because it wouldn’t be a great loss and it probably wouldn’t be an accident either.”

  • Polo

    Trump post is funny, couldn’t stop laughing. Thank you.

  • dieter

    Could someone please answer the extremely relevant question John asked at 9:23?

    “Tony if name calling is a ban why is menace still posting ????”

    I’ve been wondering the same thing for quite a while. (Somehow I really don’t expect this post to be published.)

  • Gooner S

    Wenger has won more trophies, has a higher average finishing position in the league which has been sustained throughout the building and financing of the Emirates stadium, has a higher win percentage,this is better than any other Arsenal manager.

    I like George Graham. He was good for Arsenal and successful but Wenger has a better record.

  • Dieter I’ve explained this so many times, but I will try once again.

    Untold is not moderated full time by staff because we don’t have the staff to do it. If someone would like to sponsor Untold so we can afford to run the whole thing on a professional basis, then good.

    So we have automatic systems that pick up some incidents, but otherwise we have to rely on people tipping us off and we go back and look. Mostly people do this privately in an email to myself, but you can of course do it this way if you wish.

  • Brickfields Gunners

    @ Tony – Rather than have more moderation to entertain the silly and childish whims of certain morons, I ‘d rather you get ‘the boys ‘ to fix the LIKE buttons . I just love it when the regulars wade in and give us all a good laugh .I like to show my support to our hardcore AKBs , who are so , so , very wonderful !

    Could I get a personalised one , just to show my state of mind ? This would be my choice –
    I bear the cost of it , of course . Ta very much.

    It the dislike buttons don’t work , it doesn’t really matter to me as I never press them anyway .