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Racism among the Anti-Arsenal Arsenal blogs

By Ronnie Browne

Let me start by saying that I think Le Grove is probably the best formatted blog of it’s type there is, there are posts everyday and it’s clear and easy to view and contribute to the comments section.  I have been a reader for a long time, mainly because I like reading about Arsenal everyday and like keeping up to date with the latest news and hearing from Arsenal fans.

However I have some serious issues with the site. I do not mind constructive criticism of Arsenal and Arsene but the level of abuse our club gets and our most successful manager gets by some of the posters in my opinion is absolutely disgraceful, especially for a supposed Arsenal site.  The fact that changing Wenger to Wengker is not moderated and several offensive insults against ARSENAL players, staff, board members etc are allowed puts a big cloud upon the blog in my opinon….

Now they may preach free speech but this is actually a lie cause I have posted several posts that have no insults but were just my strong opinions which have been moderated and not posted, now these posts didn’t didn’t contain any name calling, just reasonable points but however these got moderated but the insults to Arsene and most things and people Arsenal didn’t.

Also the undertone of and sometimes the blatant racism allowed on the site is unacceptable in my opinion, I saw a post very recently where people were posting jokes about [phrase edited out – sorry, Tony] and French/African/Any non English players are often insulted where their race is brought up.

It disgusts me some of these people claim to be Arsenal fans, I feel sickened by it, I always thought our fans were amongst the best and nicest people until reading their site, though I do realise most of us aren’t like that, but I think their vile bile is infectious and there are more and more of these types cropping up now.

“Le-Grove is a site where people can exchange views on issues without fear of being abused by other fans, their own or others.

A site where they can feel safe in the knowledge that they are expressing their own opinion without fear of ridicule.

If anybody does get abusive, we immediately remove their comment and block them from returning.

We are a shelter for bloggers and a haven for Arsenal fans.”

This is on their “About” section and is simply not true, people often get insulted for their opinions there if they don’t agree with their negativity. I have seen this done to others and it has been done to me too.  And in terms of being abusive calling people [sorry, racist quote again edited out] and changing OUR players names to insult them is pretty abusive to me.  They are like a cult of evil that is growing, the reason I am speaking up about it is cause they are getting worse and worse, it truly sickens me, not only the hatred but also inciting assaults upon our manager.

Maybe the police need to be informed about some of the stuff allowed on the website, there is ample proof there of posts that shouldn’t be allowed on anywhere respectable and decent, when they start taking things beyond football and talk of violence and racism that’s going way to far.

“We are non religious and non political and do not tolerate extremists from any faction.”

This is also not true, as they have allowed anti muslim posts.

“Hours spent writing hate on blog sites: If your loved one gets so worked up by Arsene criticism that they start writing hate on fan sites that disagree with their mantra, you know they’ve been struck down big time. But hey, don’t worry, they would never have the guts to be that big time in real life… so don’t worry about the ‘Blog Tourettes’ rearing its ugly head in public… it’s a bedroom thing. Anonymity is a must for any budding AKB member.”

This is so hypocritical it is beyond a joke, they have a poster on the site who spends HOURS just putting pure hate on the site, infact they have a lot of posters like that, and nothing is done about them, and they use the propaganda of AKB and the threat of being labeled one in a manipulative manner, what they have done there really is describe A LOT of posters on the site but just changed the labels so it’s directed at others.

“Just in case you weren’t sure…

The views expressed on Le Grove are not representative of the views of Arsenal Football Club Plc.

Le Grove, is in no way affiliated with Arsenal Football Club Plc.

Le Grove is not authorised by Arsenal Football Club Plc.”

Then they post this, well we can see that, since most of the material on the site is so anti Arsenal no-one could ever make that mistake… it’s interesting they put NO way affiliated with Arsenal in bold, but make of that as you wish.

The sheer ignorance on the site is mind blowing, they insult players without seeing them play just because THEY don’t know them and they shock post on a regular basis to “give people something to talk about” you can do that by talking intelligently and debating issues, not making ridiculous outrageous statements, they are clearly a gimmick, they regularly contradict themselves, I could pull out 100’s of examples of this.  For one they berate project youth then call for us to play Wilshere and Chezney.

Overall they are just a vile site with vile views, there is a great amount to say about them, however unlike a lot of their posters I have things to do but I felt I had to just say something to defend Arsenal and speak out against the racism and hate permitted on their site.

“Till next time.”

Several footnotes from Editor

1. I have always accepted that football is associated with “the language of the street” and have no problem with that, but even when the quote is from another site, I really can’t bring myself to print racism here.  Hence the edits.

2.  It can well be argued that we should not be spending all our time worrying about supporters on other sites, but rather focus on Arsenal and our vision of football.  For this reason I have been feeling that we should lay off articles about other blogs.  But this one really did focus on something that worries me – the unfettered racism, which is not only abhorrent but, as the article says, illegal under UK law.  So I felt this was a good article to publish, but I am generally of the feeling that it should be just about the last word.  Whether any reader wants to have a discourse with the police on this matter, is of course a personal issue.

3.  Finally, I may well have got the author’s name wrong.  I am editing from outside England today, and if I have made an error, my sincere apologies.  I will of course change it as soon as I can check the original.

Tony

England: a national team hiding behind a bunch of injunctions

Arsenal Worldwide is up and running

Forgive? Yes.  But with supporters there is still a limit

Man City was 40% of the transfer window.  So what the hell happens now?

278 comments to Racism among the Anti-Arsenal Arsenal blogs

  • I would add one point to the article. I do find the lurch into racism on Le Grove extremely worrying, and while I don’t for a moment suggest that anything I do will make any difference, I have had a lifetime of opposition to racism, and I find doing nothing difficult.

    That is, quite rightly, the major point here. But on a much lesser level not everyone might know that the site in question regularly changes comments by readers, so that you might write in and say one thing, and a moment later you find your comment changed to read as something quite different.

    Of course I do the same here – I delete comments that are plagiarized, off topic or racist – but I try to do it in a way that makes it clear that the comment has been changed, and why.

    I don’t want to distract us from the key issue of racism, but it does perhaps give an insight into the mindset of the editors.

    I did once complain when a comment on the site had been changed and got a letter of apology back, calling the change a mistake, and I accepted the apology. But when it happened again a few days later I felt it gave a clearer picture of what is going on.

  • LRV

    Even though they are free to write whatever they want about any club (they surely are NOT Arsenal fans to ME), I feel it is right to bring the racism on the site to the attention of the police. Racism is clearly AGAINST the law and it should not be accepted under any guise.

  • Cujo

    I stopped reading Le Grove months ago. A few days ago i accidently clicked on a link, not knowing it was Le Grove, and read it. The article was about Wilshere. Saying that if the allegations of him taking a picture up a girls skirt is true, that it isnt his fault, its the girls fault for wearing a short skirt. This is the same chain of thought rapists use to justify their actions. Its disgusting. A disgusting ‘Arsenal’ blog. No true Arsenal fan should read it.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Firstly, just to let you all know how much I enjoy this blog – anything even approaching the truth concerning Arsenal is pretty hard to find out there, so please keep up the good work.
    Just about every AFC blog seems to have some dissillusioned but I think at least genuine Arsenal supporters – as well as a load of plants undermining the club in any way possible.
    I think a lot of fans and the media scent blood over this club, they want to be personally involved in driving Wenger out. There is a perception, or so I am told among the Brit media that Arsene gives all the stories to the French media mates first.Could this explain the almost universal anti Wenger stance? Or are they just xenophobes?
    As for the haters – who are they? My guess a lot of them are bitter Spurs fans who know they will never eclipse Arsenal while Wenger remains.
    But as you rightly highlight, some of their tactics are disgusting.

  • Terence McGovern

    Guys I have been saying it for months that Le grove has become the BNP of AAA websites.

    The intelligence vacumn is fine but they have become increasingly abusive to the point that it has become their core function.

    Their posts regularly contradict each other and most are simply used to either whip up a frenzy against the manager or player or claim some sort of credit when arsenal have a good week.

    If the entire writing and contributing population of Le Grove were to drop dead the average IQ of the planet would come up 2 points.

    I’d call them scumbags but that is a tad unfair to scumbags.

    They are oxygen thieves.

  • Common Sensei

    Many of these blog writers and posters are nothing but pretentious self-loathing idiots – who can find no better use for their keyboards than trying to stir up some kind of hate-group; i’m assuming because they feel the safety of numbers when the rest of us are busy burying there daft opinions under a mound of common sense 🙂

    Oxygen thieves is the perfect discription so well done there for that – and Tony, whilst I totally agree every word you said … My own thoughts on these blog sites are:

    We will get nowhere. Trying to use logic and reason with unreasonable and illogical people is doomed to fail. We might as well be speaking in Japanese.

    In the end though they will get whats coming to them, and personally I cannot wait for that day

  • Jay

    I used to think the people who wrote LeGrove were just extremely arrogant glory supporters with a deluded sense of entitlement but they are beyond a joke now.

    Its a good job they are just a blog and dont actually matter.

    Racism and mysogeny on their site will only serve to put off right minded people from reading the crap they spout about our club anyway.

  • seether

    It doesnt surprise me i have read some questionable material myself on that website. But as a member of an ethnic group i strongly believe this country has changed in terms of mentality and approach towards people not indegenous to the British isles. After all sport is and has always being a microcosm of society. These are depressing times for all dark skinned people. This post i know will not be published in line with the mainstream red top agenda which now tries to promulgate the idea that anything bad is foreign/blames the ills of society on foreigners.

  • Harry Flowers

    I don’t bother visiting Le Grove any more. It’s generally bad for your health and generally I find there’s better things to do with your life than trading insults with idiots. I would previously have urged everyone to do the same…..just don’t visit the site….by clicking on them you are giving them the hits they survive on and contributing to their virus. Getting angry about them is playing along to their agenda.

    However…..racism is another matter entirely. You can spout all the ill-informed tosh about Arsenal all you like, you can heap disrespectful (and sometimes vicious) abuse at Arsene until your blue in the face. That’s their agenda and it seems to work for them. It’s the fact that anyone would feel comfortable in making racist or misogynistic (not to mention inciting violence) comments and that goes unchallenged..then you have a real problem that needs addressing.

    That’s my rational and reasoned reaction.
    On the other hand I would just like to say f***k ’em all. Morons.

  • dilshan

    great you bring this topic up, I used to read them a lot and some of their comments I initially took them as just humour but it was not long before I realised it was far from that. These sites are directly linked to some of our players getting booed on the pitch, I have no doubt. I also feel this race issue has slowly creped back into English football thanks to radio stations such as talk Shxx radio and newspapers such as daily mail and I feel it must be addressed by the FA ( not that I expect them to) or it soon will become very open. I guess football does reflect the society we live in and examples in countries like France shows that Fascism is back in Europe and it sure must be dealt quick.

  • Seether,

    I might be simplistic and naive but I do cling to the view that Britain remains, what it has been for a long time, a country where there among the majority of people a respect for everyone no matter how they look. The problem is that of course as a white liberal I tend to meet with people of similar views and so I am in my personal life I don’t experience racism.

    But I have to say that at least in one small area the situation has improved. Some 25 years ago one would hear the most appalling racism in football grounds, and that at least has gone. The terrible thing is that it has gone onto the blogs.

    However I would hope that everyone here could agree that you cannot be an Arsenal supporter and have any sort of racist views, not just on the obvious moral and ethical grounds, but also on the (lesser) grounds that it makes no kind of sense to support a multi-racial team while being a racist.

    Unless of course these guys are saying that they want an all-white Arsenal.

  • Howdy.

    Before I begin, I’d just like to offer praise for your site. It’s really good and I’ve just started reading it on a regular basis.

    I’ve an Arsenal blog of my own – a fledgling one – and Le Grove was one of the sites I sent an E-mail asking for advice and a bit of help. They were extremely friendly in their responce and offered me some valuable advice and helped me get myself onto the various news sites.

    Now that I’m some 4 months in to my Arsenal blogging life, I’ve read around a bit and I find it quite surprising just how much disdain there is out there for the stuff they write. A lot of what they say I don’t agree with myself whilst some occasions I find it very hard to disagree with them.

    I’ve always found the site to be one of the better ones out there and I can’t say I’ve ever seen evidence of them being racist, although, the Wilshere comment they made I can’t dispute your views on.

  • Terence McGovern

    Dilshan facism has always been alive and well.
    facism is basically coporatism and when you look at global events where the biggest companies in the world can inflict whatever crimes they please on local populations be it charge them half their income for their own water or toxic polution in their environment whilst being protected by governments, it is clear that companies come before people.

    You only have to look at the global social injustice of the bank bailouts combined with the police state operations of so called democracies to realise that it is a facist world we live in.
    Sadly under facist structures racism always flourishes as the status quo generally follows the standard plan of misdirecting blame of all social ills on perceived foreign elements within domestic society.
    Basically this plays to the lowest intelligence common denominator . Hence the anit foreigner sentiment in football playing to the intellectual bottom-feeder elements like Le grove.

  • bruno dante

    haha what a load of crap. You cheered me up at least.

    please if you call the police on le-grove post on here what they say, haha

    what a great comic writer you are

    🙂

  • Arsene Apprentice

    I think the worst form of racism is the hate shown purely on the basis of skin color. But, let’s be clear about these definitions before accusations are being cast. I have also heard in the comment section facism and let’s be clear about these as well. The author obviously has a beef with Le Grove because of certain things he/she has viewed there and transgression that have taken place against him/her on that site. So be it. My point is let’s give personal experiences and be clear about them because if not what could evolve goes into a realm of slander and/or grapevine material. Personally, I have had a negative experience with that site and have never visited again. The author and I battled it out via e-mail and he more than admitted he was altering my posts. So I took the stance that if you don’t like my viewpoint than I won’t give it… I was outraged but who cares really. Lot’s of people give it to me here. But, what keeps a site like that alive is visitors. If it is racist, facist, sexist, etc.. every click to visit is a click in support.

  • IncredibleG

    I read EVERYTHING I can find about Arsenal every day and I am not easily offended but I have found that even I can only read Le Grove in short shifts due to the rage it inspires. They exist solely for the perpetuation of their own ideas. You can try arguing with them but EVERY regular will hit you with exactly the same set of responses. Its like they all have the same disorder and they’ve managed to meet up in one place and find peace in their unfounded statements and ill-informed vitriol.
    I don’t know how many times I had the “why would spending £40m on X win us a trophy and what do we do after” argument with one mod(I won’t insult him by name in someone else’s comments) before realising that every time a new comment is posted, his brain resets to factory default settings.
    Pedro writes an excellent piece every so often but its like noone on there takes any notice unless someone’s head is being called for.
    And you know, we could win EVERYTHING without losing a game and they will only say we would have won every game if we didn’t have Almunia or Fabianski or Denilson.

    Bloody international breaks… We should be talking about football right now.

  • dilshan

    @ Terrence McGovern agree with you , like Lenin said fascism is capitalism in decay, and we are clearly seeing the signs of it with it corrupting everything and anything including the beautiful game

  • arsenal4ever

    Sorry – this email was edited out as it appears to come from an email address that is not valid. Please when posting do add to the form an email address that is valid

  • dan

    Your a cunt.

  • dilshan

    talk of the intelligence of some people ..lol…what a constructive and relevant argument all in just three words dan ..lol

  • pantsR2long

    I’ll admit that I read Le- grove everyday, but some of the stuff you say is true. There are people on there who simply spout abuse at Arsene and the players for no particular reason (two posters come to mind) but not every poster and reader on that site is one of these people. Most of us actually tell those kinds of people off when they do post stuff like that, and most of the poeple who post are intelligent arsenal fans who like to have an opinion about the club, they might not always be positive but it is our right to have an opinion whether it be negative or not.

    I agree with you that racism and bigotry should never be acceptable in any forum but I’m sure if you searched you will find that when racism, religion, or any other unacceptable grounds for abuse is posted it is frowned upon and even removed.

    The people who write for the site are ordinary people with an opinion and that is what makes most of us like Le-grove. They share our concerns and loves for the club and how it’s run, I am sure they have never on purpose tried to offend anyone with their posts but sometimes it happens, it is an inevitability when using the internet as a medium.

    I’ll finish by saying I respect your site and it’s point of view but I do not agree with the way you have tossed everyone who posts on Le-grove into the same bucket, we are all people with differing opinions who love a glorious club and it is as simple as that.

  • Honest Bill

    I think that some of you are exaggerating what goes on over there. I post on there quite a lot, of course in some people’s opinion, that makes me a moron, or a subversive racist; However i can assure you that I am neither.

    It is true that half the posts on there are full of unsubstantiated crap. It is also true that only a few idiots who post there all the time, are the source of such unmitigated nonsense.

    It is also true that i post on there often and there are quite a few decent posters on there who are quite a pleasure to discuss football with. I have rarely encountered any overt racism there that wasn’t dealt with fairly quickly, or at least shot down by most of the regulars on there.

    I often post there in support of Wenger too, and i have never had any of my comments deleted or changed as far as i’m aware. They (Their two authors) do often find it hard to take any sort of criticism, but as long as you are not insulting, they allow you to speak your mind. Or at least that’s true in my case, I can’t account for your experiences posting there of course.

    They do get a lot of incoherent idiots on there, that much is true. But i think such blanket statements are out of order. It’s nothing like a racist blog.

    I may not agree with what you say, but i would die for your right to say it.

    Apologies to all those who feel i have stolen their oxygen.

  • Arsene Apprentice

    Dilshan,

    You are probably lite years ahead of me but don’t be so inspired by Lenin… Read Orwell’s “Animal Farm. And, if you are that lazy I am sure you can see the video on the computer where you sit… As far as corruption and capitalism and football I’ll say is less likely to be dealt with in a free society than a Leninist type. Corruption is seen in any society Theocratic, Socialist, Communist(Lenin), & Capitalist. But, depending where it has been committed change is less likely in a non free society.

  • Terence McGovern

    Hey1 Does anybody else think that DAN is a daily LeGrove reader and commentator?

    I wonder what gave it away?

    Tony just to respond to part of your last comment where you wondered if anybody was advocating an all white Arsenal team.

    That sentiment starts with wanting more “english” players in the team and the slippery slope starts from there.

    Racism is in general allergic to a meritocracy.

  • typeface

    Why bother yourself with this puerile blog that is le Groan.

    Don’t waste your time with people who either are neglected in the real life or are sp~rs supporters.

  • Terence McGovern

    PantsR2long ! The most common way of disguising racism is to hide it behind xenophobic comments . that way the distinction is made between nations rather than races.

    It is a simple fact that xenophobia has always been the disgustingly acceptable face for racism in both the mainstream media and the Arsenal blogosphere.

    I am pretty sure that even the most deluded yet talented spindoctor in existence couldn’t state that LeGrove is not a xenophobic blog, and manage to either keep a straight face or to avoid looking away in shame.

    You cannot defend the indefensible.

  • rosslee

    I really enjoyed the comments made here so far except one or two people who insist on their enlightening opinions (dan & bruno). Common sensei I have also seen your post’s on other sites and am always pleased to see the sense and rationality you bring to some of the crazy arguments seen in other blogs.

    But this is too all of you (including the site), keep up the good work and maybe we can get rid of this thorn in arsenals side.

  • dilshan

    Arsene Apprentice, this probably is not the right place to debate on political views. I respect and understand where your points are coming from and of course I do agree there is corruption in every society, including that in the former USSR hence they collapsed as Che Guevara predicted very early on..however, we also have to take into consideration how the media reports on each socialist country, as they have their own agenda to pass on. I have spent considerable amount of time in Cuba and studied what is perceived to be a oppressive and corrupt regime, yet I did find religious freedom and tolerance as well as a society that is fighting hard to to carry on with the revolution and undergo a fundamental change which has been greatly hindered by the embargo placed on Cuba. Further I also think a socialist approach to the beautiful game is essential to make sure the game survives and continues to please us and I think this is the fundamental view taken by Arsene too, and yes I have read animal farm, few times as a matter of fact

  • Common Sensei

    I don’t thik many of these people are actually racists you know – they do not hate the people they are targeting because of their skin colour at all, or nationality.

    It is just a lack of education, lack of vocabulary, and a lack of thought process or a logical mind for the purpose of debate.

    Basically I think it has all the hallmarks of teenage angst and egotism blended with a rotten upbringing.

    I noticed it before with the ‘we want trophies and we dont care how’ brigade – they seem to have no clue why the trophy is important. They just see it as a prize to be taken away from somebody else; not to be won in it’s own right.

    Sad indicative of the state of culture today; and football is suffering the consequences ultimately.

    Calling the police would probably make it worse, the only way to deal with this is for those who feel targeted to take a mature authoritive position and refrain from attacking in reply.

    If we all band together and just make sure we outnumber them … well in the end they will tire and leave.

  • Honest Bill, if I may clarify… (at least from my point of view)

    Le Grove is a well organised site, and the originators write well. They are also excellent at devising attractive headlines that draw the readers in – I seem to recall that like myself they work in advertising.

    But there are some problems, from my personal perspective.

    One racist comment that is allowed to stay on the site is one too many, and we are not talking about one or even two. They can get 600 comments on an article, and tucked in between all the one liners are some seriously racist items. My personal view is that the site is accepting these racist comments if they decline to act upon them, as the blurb on their site suggests they will.

    Second, they do indeed allow some contrary arguments, but also they do remove some for no reason other than that they don’t like them. That is of course up to them, it is their site, and there’s nothing in our laws to say they can’t. But it does happen – although only to some writers. And that is what makes it a bit insidious. If it doesn’t happen to you, then of course you tend to feel that by and large the guys are ok. How would you ever know how many comments they refuse to accept? But then, of course, all newspapers are the same. If I write to the Daily Mail praising the work of the Workers Revolutionary Party, they won’t print it – and why should they?

    Third, they do take some comments and change them, and that I do find offensive. This happened to Walter for example – and it was one that I protested about. They were very reasonable about it., and apologised, but I have seen it happen since with other writers. I personally find that more akin to Winston Smith in 1984 rather than to the sort of debate I prefer. But again, nothing illegal, purely a matter of preference.

    So, overall, two points that are simply preference in terms of the way they conduct themselves, and one that does personally to me seem to be utterly offensive, not to say illegal. I think that’s a summary of where we are.

  • IncredibleG

    @pants
    Obviously with a comments section that is frequently over 400 posts long by the middle of the day, there are plenty of right-minded people reading and commenting on there. I have indeed seen people being pulled up for being excessively negative – The name Jaguar springing to mind just now.
    However, I know from experience that comments which are directly opposed to theirs are answered initially with insults and then, no matter how polite and well argued, deletion of every single comment you’ve made. How am I supposed to respect the opinions of someone who is afraid to acknowledge validity in a differing viewpoint?

  • Gf60

    Oh dear. Does my dislike of those faces painted red and black in Manchester and blue in Fulham make me a racist? I do hope not.

  • Ayoola

    Hi,

    what a nice article you have written.I read Le-Grove everyday and I do sometimes post my comments on the blog. however, I feel it absolutely wrong to toss everybody that posts on there into same kettle.
    Firstly, I think you have to commend the constructive imaginations of the people that write the Blog. They do very good job IMHO, however, since the internet is the medium of communication they share with their bloggers all over the world, you cannot but expect some form of indiscretion and unruliness when you bring some many cultures together.
    I am not supportive of abuses, hate talks and racism, but please do not make it sound like the moderators condone it. I think Le- Grove is a truly international and non-conservative blog.

    Personally, I would like to ask people on this website why is that the arsenal have not won a single thing in close to five years of football?

    PS,

    This is Arsenal Football Club and we rank among the very best in the Land.

  • Arsene Apprentice

    Dilshan,
    Yeah..you are right p-tics is a bad topic but hard not to make reference to on the topic presented. It’s just that this is sort of where the conversation has evolved but probably best to leave it here.

    P.S. did you happen to visit the country north of Cuba? Those refugees will tell you some stories of that romantic regime… Nothing like freedom and truth and lack of Guns pointed at your face to hear the real story…

  • dilshan

    Arsene Apprentice the people who moved to the north of the border immigrated for economic reasons mostly and if they were to praise the existing regime they will not be granted Asylum nor will they be looked after by the groups that work 24/7 to assassinate Castro and co. I did meet enough people within the country who openly admitted flows in the regime which I agree too but then I look at the bigger picture and realise sacrifice are required to create a better society for tomorrow and they hold no political prisoners, drug usage is nearly zero, one of the best educational and health system in the world, for front in humanitarian aid for the world, the catalysit behind defeating the apartheid regime of South Africa ..yes there is no democracy as we know but what is democracy, the one that exists in Zimbabwe or Iran?, …

    apology Tony if I have turned the topic of your blog..people like you are needed to bring up the topics that many dare to touch and on this note also interested to know if you will be touching on Match ( spot) fixing on the back of what has happened with the Pakistani cricket team. I have a minor article on this topic and will mail you

  • Honest Bill

    Tony;

    I would say that in my experience of posting there, any overt or blatant racism is dealt with and deleted pretty effectively. It may be true that they have too many comments for the two of them to effectively moderate.

    But with subversive racism, well you couldn’t catch it all if you tried. It is never written in such a manner that would leave you in no doubt. extremely hard to moderate particularly when dealing with so many comments. The regulars on the whole tend to shoot most of it down.

    As for changing comments, well if that’s true then that is out of order and they shouldn’t be doing it, however i can only go by my own experience of course, and that i that i (as a bit of an Arsenal nerd) go there to converse with other nerds about Arsenal and have never had a problem.

    Being labeled as some of the names by some of the posters above is probably just as offensive. Why should i not be able to come to this blog and not be called names because i happen to frequent another site?

    As it happens I am not so easily offended by anonymous people’s views, but I’m sure you can see the point i’m trying to make. Are you going to go and delete the comments which might be offensive to me? … No, and nor would i want you to. I accept that idividual poster’s views are not necessarily representative of you, or your blog in general. Otherwise one might be forced to make such sweeping generalisations, as Untold Arsenal is a blog which makes sweeping generalisations.

    I know that’s quite a flimsy example, but hopefully it illustrates my point, that when you run such a blog, you put subjects up for public debate.. One might argue that the public on the whole is pretty dim, but one could not do so without tarring oneself with the very same brush.

    Most on Le-Grove are quite reasonable and those extreme idiots are generally just laughed off.

  • Harry Flowers

    “Oh dear. Does my dislike of those faces painted red and black in Manchester and blue in Fulham make me a racist? I do hope not.”

    I sincerely hope not. Or else myself and I’m sure a fair few others around here, would qualify. I’d heard that there had been some anti-Muslim comments on there the other day..I can’t comment on the validity of this as I no longer visit the blog. It does seem to me the latter is almost becoming the acceptable face of racism (“I’m not a racist BUT…”).

    If people feel relaxed enough to make these comments in the knowledge that they won’t be challenged or asked to explain themselves….then it is a problem. On the other hand if the comments of “Dan” betray the intellectual heft of your average Grove reader maybe we shouldn’t be unduly surprised.

    As for the “socialist approach to the beautiful game”. I believe it was one of the great minds of our generation Mr Noel Gallagher who said “fuck Arsene Wenger and his socialist football nonsense”. Arsene knows.

  • Common Sensei

    Well I just spent a good 25 mins trying to broker some sort of peace – which I can see is not particularly well received on either side 🙂 But for the sake of my sanity and the reputation of everybody on here AND the club in general to neutrals who happen on these sites;

    I think we can all declare a cease-fire for a bit!! When you actually take the time to discuss with the guys over at LG you may be surprised to find that they are actually not a bad bunch of guys.

    Of course they are fucking lairy as hell 🙂 And I guess many are of a younger audience, so the amount of swearing and what we consider bad manners will be raised.

    That said it’s just different standards – if you can ignore that, there are some valid points in there and some decent people.

    So I think it’s time we all started trying to agree on more and argue less …. ppphhhewwwwww knackering work that is 😀 Hehe I am off for a sneaky green smoke now.

    All they ask over there is that could we please stop dissing them and their site; and they have generally said they are happy to tone down their agro-vibes when they are on here.

    Truce sound like a good plan??

  • Aaron

    Le Grove is an absolute terrible blog site. I think i have read it once, and was so put off by its inane opinions i’ve never gone back. I might accidently click on a link now and then (i use Gooner News) Just to find myself quickly clicking for the close button.

    I really can’t see how they get any views at all, its a total joke of a blog.

  • Goonerpower

    Well said Tony. I read it sometimes and find there point of view ludicrous at times. The comments are the worst I have ever seen on a blogg site. I have to control myself at some of these (how should I put it) blah Blum blee people 🙂 The problem is, they are sitting behind there keyboards feeling untouchable, writing racist and quite frankly sick comments. These are probably spotty little teenager pulling there pud with excitement (sorry if I went over board there) at every rise they get.

    Great post Tony. An excellent read as always

  • dilshan

    Common Sensei I agree with most of what you say and your intentions are good just as that of Tony. I Think Tony has touched a topic that everyone was secretly wishing some one did but were not in a position to do so or even a bit reluctant due to the consequences. I also appreciate your view in need for truce and the need for Arsenal fan’s to be united but there should never be compromise with what is wrong..well that is my humble view

  • rosslee

    common sensei ;

    The devil recognizes his own..
    I knew there was something about your posts, the sneaky green smokey weasel tells it all.

    1 luv

  • Mandy Dodd

    Just been around a few of the blogs – the latest fiction being spun by what on here is called the AAA is how the club have spent just £3.2m on a club level refurb – apparently if this money was spent on a GK instead, all would be well in the world. No idea if its true or not but even if it is I am sure this has nothing to do with transfer funding.
    As a fully paid up AKB, I do sometimes get frustrated – maybe sometimes Mr Wenger could make things a little easier for us fighting the fight, especially over keepers!
    But still, can anyone tell me why there are people out there devoting their lives to making up crap about Wenger / Arsenal / certain players?

  • Common Sensei

    @Rosslee

    What exactly are you saying? Please elaborate because that sounds like a very snide remark and not a particularly positive one either.

    Surely you can understand that through my absolute LOVE of Arsenal – I want all the supporters to ‘play nice’ regardless of their opinions. I think you nearly defeated that purpose yourself if by accident 🙂 What did you mean then?

    Don’t worry I will not use your opinion against you I simply wish to hear it

  • Common Sensei

    Actually I can see this isn’t going to end well …. seemingly the only person who recognises the damage all this infighting is doing to the reputation of the club, is me!

    OK well I will drop it – I assumed everybody here would be happy to steer this rivalry back towards neutrality. If this is not the case, the I will leave it alone.

    At the end of the day I just love talking about football and Arsenal, it irritates me that daily precious hours are wasted on the tit-for-tat arguing over AAAs and AKBs.

    Most of it has degraded to a state where one person is as bad as the next! Whilst I cannot tolerate racism or any kind of baseless hatred and disrespect … Being objective, I think labelling people AAAs and AKBs is no better.

    Well anyway, that is my piece said – back to the football now!

  • Honest Bill

    Common Sensei.

    I don’t know what i would do to address such a rivalry, given that i was previously not aware of one.

  • Common Sensei

    Well I like to use both sets of sites – and just because of that I seem to be pulled both ways when the two fight.

    It’s making people get all funky with me!! That is what bothers me 🙂 And if you weren’t aware of it …. maybe you could take a look over at LG and you will see it for yourself.

    For Christ sake don’t go saying anything baity though 🙂 I finally managed to get both groups onside so I can surf as I please!

    Only took about a week 😀 Lol

  • Common Sensei

    Actually how could you not be aware, look at the title of this article!

    Hehe it’s plain to see my friend

  • shotta-gunna

    While I am wary of giving le-gloom too much publicity, the thing I have observed is, despite the rarely concealed racism and chauvinism by the co-bloggers and many of the clique that regularly post, there are a fair number of posters from the Indian sub-continent and Africa, who just revel in this cesspool of hate and intolerance. It tells a lot about these critics of Arsene and the club’s policies that they are inflicted by this level of self-hate and self-loathing.

  • Groverider

    Le Grove is a shitstain on the bowl of the Arsenal blogosphere.
    Relentlessly moany, negative and ill thought out bile, it depresses the shit out of me that it attracts the hits it does as it’s real lowest common denominator tabloidesque guff. It basically exists to hate on Wenger and our team, truly embarassing cringeworthy crap, it’s editor for want of a better word has zero tolerance of anyone putting forward any contrary well reasoned opinion to his own ignorant ranting hyperbole and it’s one saving grace is that it keeps all the le grunts snuffling round in one pen and off of the classy Arsenal blogs.

  • reggie 57

    Just a quick word! i blog on le groan as you call it! neither am i a racist, a thug, a doomer, im just a normal working class guy who’s fed up to the back teeth with the way our great club is being run at the moment! Le Grove give’s you a chance to vent your anger/dismay with out idiot’s like you getting on your high horse and telling us how rosy the garden look’s !!

  • rosslee

    @Common sensei

    I was talking about your comment about sneaky green smoke, and my comment about the devil recognizing his own ment that I too indulge in such things and think similarly . It wasnt ment in a bad way, I just saw a similarity to the way you write and the way I think.
    I didn’t mean to try and get funky with you, lol.

    Its not everyday I read or meet people with same views, and your comment about the green made me realize why I relate to your posts.(dunno if thats a good thing but it helped put what u saying into more perspective of how you came to that conclusion) (I could be totally wrong here and misread you completely, but this is what i read into it)

    I agree with most of the stuff said in the blog today and had no intention of trying create more rivalry amongst us arsenal fans. and I apologize for digressing from the original point of this article.

    1 luv

  • Kushagra India

    shotta-gunna
    I regularly read Le-Grove as well as Untold I like some of the posts of le-grove some I dont ,its the same with Untold as well .That doesn’t mean I am a racist or overtly positive blindfolded Arsenal Fan BRO!!

  • Common Sensei

    Victory is ours!!!

    Gooners unite 🙂 Nice one brothers …. lol

  • Dark Prince

    Thats really sad to hear. Racism is any form should be banned. I urge all Arsenal Supporters to avoid using any racist tones or abusive language. If you have any complaints, you can say it politely or without abusive words.

  • Common Sensei

    @rosslee

    *paaaaaaaaaassssss the dodgey to the left hand siiiide*

    puff puff 🙂 Then back to the footy!

  • Common Sensei

    @Dark Prince

    None of us are racist and we all hate it the same, even the other lot over at LG – they are more easy going with their sarcastic remarks, and I did find it offensive before I spoke with them on their terms.

    But they all agreed that racism is not something that anybody here is into – and whilst it needs to be kicked out, there is no harm in joking about it so long as everybody agrees it is humour and nobody gets offended.

    Although I was born and bred here – I am no more English than Theo, infact I have the same dark skin and eyes as he does. That said I can happily make a joke of it! My little sister likes to antagonise me by saying I look like an Iraqi refugee 😀 Hehe but I don’t mind because she looks like a Turkish Grandma lol

  • The Bottomline is that Le-grove DOESNOT encourage Racism.

    Normally Fridays at le-grove are Joke days,where bloggers post jokes to have a nice time with arsenal fans all over.

    and from there,U Guys are just taking some ‘tongue in the cheek’ comments,in a veil of racism or in other words,racism,as an excuse to promote this anti-legrove propaganda.

    history of your blog is proof of your anti-le-grove propaganda

    Lets Not be hypocrite,nobody is a child here.
    Clearly your post is an opportunistic attempt to have a dig at le-grove….

    R u guys Le-grove blog stalkers???

  • Marc

    I have read Le Grove on a couple of occasions but I decided to stay away based on comments mostly on A Cultured Left Foot, therefore I can’t comment on racist comments posted on a site I haven’t read in a couple of years. However racism is a problem in domestic football, black players no longer have monkey noises directed at them but the current racism is more dangerous. There is an attitude in the press and fans of other clubs that it is funny to kick Arsenal off of the pitch. The justification that Arsenal don’t like it “up em” and cannot stand a physical battle has allowed teams like Bolton, Blackburn and Stoke to go out and play in a manor that has no place on a football pitch. Last season Kevin Davies was widely quoted of saying that Arsenal players scream like girls when they are tackled – I believe this was from the match day programme. To have the captain of a PL club saying this is disgusting, if it had been in an interview to a tabloid it would be one thing but the club allowed it to be written in it’s official match day programme. Because this attitude is encouraged and repeated by the media I believe that referee’s are influenced and this allows these teams to continue a thuggish approach. Now I do not believe that any player or manager wants another player severely injured but if a team goes out with a mindset of hit them hard then are we surprised that Arsenal have sustained the injuries to Diaby, Eduardo and Ramsey over the past few years?

    Does anyone really think that Shawcross would have been painted as an innocent victim if he had injured Rooney or Gerrard?

  • Terence McGovern

    I have never posted on LeGrove.
    I did accidentally step in it a few times….nasty.

  • dilshan

    I found some of the articles on Le Grove offensive and carried a racist tone and hence I got involved in this debate. I am not in favour of division among the fans but at the same time difficult questions must be asked and answered and this is one more reason for me to back Arsene. AW is not just trying to build a team but he is trying to shape a club and the society around it. This will take time and sacrifice and like with all revolutions and changes there will always be relative hard time (i.e trophy less 5 years if you consider that to be hard times) but ultimately he will shape a club that will out last any of its current rivals and remain a successful one with strong social values. With him hammering home the truth of need to look beyond a players passport he is fighting the hidden racism and discrimination in the game and when a man fights for what is right it is our duty to support him, preferably as a united force.

  • Maurya

    I read their articles regularly.I find them interesting and spot on most of the times. I never spent time reading the comments section. I guess, they need to moderate them aggressively if they are out of order.

  • Money has indeed been spent on a club level refurbishment. The reason is that club level and the diamond club plus the boxes do contribute something like 40% of the income of the club on match days, and so it is necessary to respond to what the people who use club level want.

    This sort of comment which you report Mandy is of the type that says we should not have built the Ems but instead invested in new players and stayed at Highbury.

  • GoonersProtector

    Agreed. Racism and taunting cannot be tolerated anywhere in the world. A reminder for those who do not like Arsene’s transfer policy, should go to the 16 Sept 2010 meeting and tell Arsene how much they hated his gut. Well, if you can do that then you have as much guts as Arsene do.

  • Common Sensei

    I must admit if I could afford a VIP box I may agree with it with a little more conviction! But the Emirates was definitely a very shrewd move for the club.

    Short term pain for long term gain, it is the stape of the business community 🙂 And let’s be honest we haven’t even been that far away from winning something …. last season crusified me that final month; we were SO so close!

    Hopefully this year, and I am confident it can be – will be a return to title winning ways for this fabulously talented and now somewhat experienced squad.

  • cesc rule

    i think u are over reacting..le grove mostly discuss abt arsenal issues..our fellow grovers sometimes play some jokes among themselves but still draw the lines of personal and sensitive issue..if 1 sensetive issue has been brought up, then fellow members will try to commute, disscuss and hopefully resolve the matter.

  • Maurya

    I am not sure about the severity of the comments posted by members on LG. For me , it looks like you are kinda overboard on thinking about reporting it to police. I hear whole stadium spouting lots of bad stuff.

  • Arsene used to know best

    I think this is a cheap shot, using LeGrove to generate hits for this site.

    They do talk about negatives over there, but theres no doubt that they have reasons for that. The last few years have seen some really bizarre management decisions, and a lot of fans are struggling to understand this.

    They arent racist though, thats for sure, its embarassing what some people consider racism these days.

  • Common Sensei

    Yeah it all got out of hand, when effectively it was a communication problem. LACK of communication, which has now been rectified 😀 Infact when you cut them a bit of slack, they are all good lads having a laugh and talking some sense really.

    I don’t agree with the Wenger-bashers but hey we all have our differences. What is clear is that they love Arsenal just the same as you or I.

    Also the so called racism, it was just jokes – and when I alerted them to how offended some people were, they instantly apologised and said they would try to empathise in future.

    Honestly, give them a fair shot and a clean slate and you will be surprised at what you find.

    Even Spectrum who was my ultimate nemesis, we had some blazing rows 🙂 Hehe but actually now we have sorted it out, he makes some very good points and has no less of an ability to listen than any of us.

    So it turns out it was ‘half a dozen of one, and 6 of the other’ lol we were all making the same mistakes and pointing the finger.

    Now all the talk on LG is about how Adebayor thinks City will prove themselves a bigger club than the multi-title double winning invincible creating Arsenal …… by winning their next 10 games on the trot!

    AHahahahah even if that were so, I can’t even see them stringing 3 or 4 wins together – they haven’t got a clue!

    Take a look at the article on Sky quoting Adebayor it is humorous to say the least; looks like he is trying to win the supporters back after threatening to fuck off to italy 🙂 Joker

  • Arsene Apprentice

    Dilshan,

    I don’t follow your logic. Why labels of Racism with no proof and then say this is a revolution as is if Wenger is being revolutionary? What Wenger has proven is that a club in this day and age needs to live within its means in order to survive. Otherwise as has been documented here Administration can occur. He has utilized every resource available in order to do so and it has been academic. His loyalties are not to a revolution or a cause unless you consider honorable, moral, & common sense revolutionary. He has a Masters Degree in economics from University. He also ,as far as I can tell, was brought up as a devout Catholic. And, probably where he has developed his morals from. Sorry to ruin your revolutionary theme as you have suggested in more than one post. I have an extreme distaste for propaganda and as such if you are going to accuse please supply the facts otherwise pipe down with this sort of rhetoric.

  • Common Sensei

    I think sabeel is just behind in this situation. He thinks we here at untold are saying that people on there are racists!

    i already explained that I spoke to loads of the guys over there and that they all agreed that NOBODY on EITHER side is racist.

    Jokes are jokes, racists are racists. We all like to joke. We all hate the idea of racism. It really is that simple he just needs to read through the whole blog I think

  • Common Sensei

    Sorry Dilshan not Sabeel 🙂 My bad this is confusing so many people and I am crap with names

  • DFG

    It is simple, Le Grove is an anti Arsenal blog! They say you can have an opinion and not get one. That statement is a joke. If you try to state something positive that is different to Geoff’s point of view you get banned or put in moderation. Geoff has certain favorites that are allowed to spout constant bile and abuse at posters who argue pro Arsenal points yet he constantly states it is the blog of love and grovers do not abuse fellow grovers. The site is full of double standards and judging by the majority of posts the tone tends to be that it is mainly the lower intelligent that post there.

  • Maurya

    Tony,
    Give them some slack. They are not Anti Arsenal blog. Their opinions are different than our opinions.

  • Common Sensei

    Tony is a smart guy, I think (as mine were originally) his values were insulted. But it’s understandable, they are quite a big younger than most of us – so it is a generation gap;

    Sometimes if you are not used to it – it comes across as rudeness but it is not …. it’s just a different way of communication.

    I wonder where he has gone off to? Some people thought I was him under a different name earlier 😀 Hehe that was funny I had to reveal my real name to prove otherwise!

  • dilshan

    no no Arsene Apprentice and Common sensi, I have read articles with racist undertone on that site, though never directed at me, but that does not mean those were not racists articles. Why I say he is revolutionising football and how it is administrated when what he is trying to do is restore the order and run it how it should be is what you are asking, well that answer to it is simple. Football has been corrupt and has been exploited by all most all those who run the game FA, UEFA, FIFA to exploit it for their personal gain and fighting for what it just, truth and the rightful way against all the odds is what I call revolution, well almost all historical revolutions are just that. What AW is doing will not just change the Arsenal but how the game is run, played and administrated in the future and that sure is revolution am I not right….common sensei I do commend your work in highlighting the need for a united fan base, united fan base to back and support the club not to turn against .

  • Common Sensei

    Yeah totally agree on Wenger. But I can assure you that everybody I spoke to ALL DAY on LG – they are NOT racist so anything they said construed as thsi was infact just jokes.

    there is a guy on there called Sabeel who is saying that Untold accused them of being racist. Please if you can enlighten him I would be grateful because I can’t be arsed to argue with him anymore.

    Everybody else gets it but he is still going!

  • Jazbo

    Le Grove is a crap site, I take a look every now and then but each time I find that I’m just wasting my time, and to say that no one over there is a racist is pure rubbish, some the stuff that has been posted about Diaby & Denilson are a disgrace in any language.

  • Common Sensei

    Yeah but they don’t actually mean it it was said for effect. There are a few twats on there though who ARE very unreasonable but they are so young I try not to get offended 🙂 Although they do wind you up!

    99.9% of peope over there are fine when you make the effort – it is sad that the few ruin the reputations of the rest.

    NEvermind such is life 😀 Roll on City at the Grove!!

  • Doublegooner

    I read Le Grove daily.

    I’ve been a season ticket holder since the 60’s & go to all home & most away games.

    I’ve spent £000’s over the years & I am not happy with the way the club has become.

    If many of you think all is rosey in the garden then there are plenty who do not. Le Grove have that point of view.

    It does’nt make the authors or many fans less Gooners either.

    The club has become so damm sanitised that it sounds like most modern day fans actually think they are going to the theatre.

    In fact the club appears to be there for the ‘customers’ who make up the 40% of the turnover. The club have fallen into the shit trap of offering a sterile lovely PC day out.

    It has taken nearly 4 years for them to turn it into an Arsenal stadium. Flags were banned due to some ‘health & safety’ shit. Then when they decide to allow flags they produce them themselves to launch the new stand names & allow them to be formally out for about 3 minutes before hurridly pulling them back in.

    Anyone who dares criticise the club or Wenger is roundly put down as being ungrateful, possibly racist & told to the’re not real fans & should go support that lot down the road.

    Well, Wenger is not beyond criticism. IMO, this is not just about running a sensible business which I fully agree & respect the club for. This is about Wenger creating his experiment of trying to just win the league or CL with the majority of young home developed side. He tried this back in the early 90’s at Monaco & it failed.

    Now he has complete control over the club & can do what he wants without being challenged & again IMO this policy as it stands is fatally flawed, stubborn & arrogant.

    You may think people that read Le Grove are deluded & a small minority, but there are many ‘moderate’ fans who are seriously now turning their opinion to question Wenger & are really pissed off with the club.

    As for rasicm, I don;t thinks it’s any different from a number of largely read blogs or comments.

    How many of you get insulted by Arsebloggers rants & comments ?? Theres another site read by real Gooners, many questioning whats going on & others who still think Wenger can do no wrong.

    Stop thinking football, especially Arsenal should be this lovely little clean shaven club that everyone should be grateful, have the same opinion & all behave the same because that is PC socialism which I detest.

  • walter

    I was one of the people who gave a comment and the comment was changed by the editors of the site and so I looked like an idiot.
    When I started to ask them in a next comment why they did it I got banned (and still am). Only when I post from anothr computer I get in so I think they banned my IP address. Not that I feel the need to comment anymore as I cannot be sure that they will change my comment again.

    But I read it most of the time because I can admit that the people who write the articles can write a bit. I hardly can agree with what they tell but they can write.

    And they can rewrite comments… 😉

  • Goons_with_Guns

    That shite-for-brains xenophobe Pedro from Le Grove is a marked man. If I EVER get the fortunate chance to meet him at Ashburton Grove or elsewhere, I will surely be charged with G.B.H., and be proud of it.

    PEDRO, YOU ARE A MARKED WOMAN, TRAITOR.

  • Common Sensei

    Well mate that is a very dishonest thing to do, and it kind of idicates a bit of guilt to me – or if I was in your position that is how I would feel.

    Out of about 30 posters on there, I had a problem with 2 but the rest were absolutely fine.

    I suppose there will always be people who prefer to ‘be right’ or make you apologise so they can look like they never fucked up at all.

    It’s all about culture and values though isn’t it – the very thing that took me over there in the first place. I wanted to know for myself that the rumours were true. Obviously they were but only to these 2 posters.

    Good for you that you tried to get it straight with them – it’s there loss if they think that editing comments and basically lying to be right is going to benefit anybody in the long run.

    A bit like buying the league 🙂 Who does that benefit apart from the agents and suits that receive the bumper profits?

  • E4superfly

    pls I’ve read le grove and they are offensive and racist and if you post anything positive your post gets deleted go ahead I dare any one who has posted on this page to go over there and post anything positive on wenger or arsenal and i can bet 90% or more will be del… lol provide evidence this site always does if any one should provide evidence it should be Le grove at least half their stories or articles are false claims.

    I’m grateful to this site they always give us the truth I enjoy 80% of the articles not all I did not enjoy this one but it’s the truth.

  • The Blaster

    The problem is that there are indeed genuine life long Arsenal fans who are also racist to the core and hate the fact that Arsenal has anyone not white and with a cute english surname as much as the Ku Klux Klan hate the fact that America has a black president. There are also, undoubtedly, genuine lifelong Arsenal fans who yearn for the days when fans would try to beat the **** out of rivals, and for the days when every team had a leg breaking hatchet man. We cannot eradicate those fans, and indeed they may have a voice on the web. What it does mean is that if LG allows certain posters to be repeatedly racist and promote any kind of violence under the guise of it being fun, then it taints itself with the same brush, and if it thinks that such behavious is perfectly acceptable, then it will become more and more a site solely for the hate filled minority of Arsenal fans, and lose all credibility with anyone else. It is entirely the choice of it’s editorial people how they allow their site to drift, just as it is entirely up to a national newspaper how it allows it’s own politics to show itself.

    What LG misses about the blogosphere is that an article consists of the initial post plus all the replies, not just the original statement.

    We think we’ve got rid of racism in English football, but now we come to a point where football crazy kids of African immigrants, who are almost the only people playing in the parks of London these days, don’t have nice english sounding names like ‘Walcott’,’Ferdinand’,’Heskey’, ‘Defoe’ etc. THe most destructive thing about sites like LG is that players like Emanual Frimpong may well say ‘Stuff England!’ and go and play for one of their parents countries rather than their own.

  • Common Sensei

    Yeah I wanted to disagree but the few idiots over there intent on making the rest look like little brainless morons have made that impossible.

    Shame really because in my eyes the younger crowd are the future us …. when we are gone they will be here and judging by the way people are over there the values and class of Arsenal will die with us, they have their own values –

    WIN AT ALL COSTS ie Chelsea values, City values, Sam Allardye values …. fucking sad 🙁

  • E4superfly

    I know sometimes it’s frustrating that things are not happening quicker but when I see the road ahead arsenal’s future is bright.

    To be honest I don’t care if we win this season or the next it’s what happens there after our team is now reaching it’s full potential few more tweaks to go and once we get that first trophy no one can stop us.

    the league is ours for the next ten seasons after that thank you Wenger for building a legacy and thank you Tony for inlightning the uninlightened.

  • dilshan

    to be honest The comment by Blaster has reminded me of a comment made by a leading journalist, a top one at that working for Times. Last season when we had the back to back PL games against Bolton the times pod cast had a debate on English players and obviously Arsenal got dragged into the topic and one of the journalist pointed out that Fabrice Muamba was an English player developed by arsenal and in reply to that Gabriel Marcotti said or Muamba now that sounds a very English name does it not…as this is a pod cast I am sure it will be still available for anyone who wants to listen to it and while leading news papers such as Times get away with it lot of the others will consider it to be normal ..if I was next to Marcotti I would have loved to ask him when he became English and suggested him changing his name to adolf fat marcotti

  • Common Sensei

    E4SF

    Totally in agreement with everybody on here who has bothered to justify their view 🙂 I don’t care if we win either, it is the manner in which we compete which makes me swell with pride.

    Buying a trophy is easy and worthless because it is not for the players it is for the board and the owners.

    Arsenal when they DO manage to win the league again will be TOTALLY SURE that they did not walk into a shop and buy the thing – we actually spent years building up a squad and players capable of taking those bunch of shit-lickers to the cleaners and proving that cheating isn’t winning.

    When Arsenal win the league, morality will win it also 🙂 And the football lovers across the nation will rejoice. The pundits will crow, the fans will bow to it.

    Football will return to the people 😀 From the clutches of these rich bastards who have it currently!

  • dilshan

    the times podcast I refer to is the one on the Monday between the two games as we played them Saturday away and Wednesday home

  • The Ruler

    I wrote this article, and as it says I have NO problem with people critising Arsene or even our club as a whole but when people speak of racism and violence that takes it way to far. That is unacceptable and as Tony says it is against UK law.

    I also agree with his post, I want to focus on Arsenal and Arsenal issues from my perspective BUT the disgusting racism I saw that day (there was a lot of it) and it being allowed to stay there inspired me to write the article because comments talking about assaulting Arsene (was one today calling for him to get stoned if City finish above us). Remember I read Le Grove on a regular basis, but it’s got to a point where it’s getting too much now and that type of thing needs to be brought up.

    And no sorry, racist jokes that use extremely offensive terms has no place on an ARSENAL site who have ethnic supports and fans, that is not acceptable in my opinion, racism is not funny. Also there is plenty of racism on the site, in an undertone and outright that goes without notice or moderation, it wasn’t just that day and it wasn’t just cause of “joke” day, I have seen racism to black people and asians on there and other races. As I said I liked to read Le Grove, I feel they just need to moderate things like that and not allow them to stand, it gives a nasty impression of Arsenal fans and as a whole we are not like that.

    Thank you for the many positive comments I have received regarding this article, the ones on here and the personal ones, it is good to know many others also are totally against certain things there too and that’s why I wrote it, because I believe in Arsenal fans integrity and I wanted us more of us to collectively highlight that that is not what we stand for. Also finally I would like to add that this was not an article negative to all Le Grove posters, rather the fact that some of the comments allowed there is vile and unacceptable in a decent society, most of my articles are strictly based on Arsenal and Arsenal issues, but seeing things like that I felt it would be wrong to completely ignore cause as I said I read Le Grove everyday and the comments have been getting worse recently.

    To conclude, Untold Arsenal is my favorite Arsenal website and I hope to be able to contribute from my perspective regarding Arsenal issues more.

  • Ronnie Brown

    “What it does mean is that if LG allows certain posters to be repeatedly racist and promote any kind of violence under the guise of it being fun, then it taints itself with the same brush, and if it thinks that such behavious is perfectly acceptable, then it will become more and more a site solely for the hate filled minority of Arsenal fans, and lose all credibility with anyone else. It is entirely the choice of it’s editorial people how they allow their site to drift, just as it is entirely up to a national newspaper how it allows it’s own politics to show”

    I agree completly with this, this is why I wrote the article.

  • A Casual Observer

    Oh crikey – this one is going to cause some friction…

    …ding ding!

  • walter

    And even if I am one of those persons whos comments were changed to make me look like a fool and even with all those racists things on LG I still am willing to play the devils advocate.

    Maybe at first it started with one poster posting insults. The editors didn’t do anything about it and others joined (to have the largest d*ck). And after a while you find it a natural thing to insult others.

    Maybe at first it started with one poster posting racist comments. The editoters let it go and others joined in (maybe to vent some own frustrations)and after a while you find it normal and don’t see the racist comments anymore.

    Maybe at first it was some kind of (sick) joke to change comments from people to make them look foolish. And as no one could punish them or people (like me) who asked them for an explanation got kicked of the site and no one noticed. And after a while you find it normal to change comments and riciulize people.

    So maybe this Geoff and Pedro persons didn’t intend to end up where they are now but maybe this is just part of getting used to some things they maybe don’t even realise anymore?

    I’m sure tomorrow morning they will have a go at Untold for this but maybe if they would have a look in the mirror and maybe if they would think about their responsibility when you enter on the internet and make a blog it could have as a result that they act against the worst excesses one can see on their site at times.

    I am not calling to stop them and ONCE AGAIN I THINK IT IS THEIR RIGHT TO BE NEGATIVE ABOUT ARSENAL so they can just go on posting negative things for my part. Maybe even it is needed somewhat that they exist.

    Just hope that they think about what is written and about what is not written on their site because it is deleted by them.

  • Ronnie Brown

    Also Tony (understandably) edited the racist terms used, if you actually saw them you would see exactly what I’m talking about, it’s not acceptable, Le Grove and all it’s posters have a right to post their opinons just like everyone else and that’s fine even if we may disagree but when they allow those kind of terms freely and several times that’s going to far. As someone that is pro equality and have fought racism all my life I had to speak up, not that it will make a drastic difference to them but it may show our worldwide Arsenal fans we all don’t talk of you like that and not all Arsenal fans are like that. I saw an article on here that that was called “the most depressing thing about Arsenal fans” and related to it so much, I hope I will have some more articles on Arsenal issues and contribute as a regular writer here if Tony permits.

  • Ronnie Brown

    And exactly Walter, is their right to be negative, but allowing persistant racism and calls for assaults against Arsene is not their right, that’s inciting hatred and violence.

    On a brighter topic, good news Nasri is back quicker than expected.

  • Arsene Apprentice

    Blaster,

    That is a societal issue. And, again speculation at best. Don’t castagate the rest of us who constantly get it right. LG is as responsible for their posters as Tony is here. I asked for one thing at the beginning of this post for fear of what now is becoming true. And, that is emotions w/o facts. Is their racism well yes. But, as Tony has stated not in his circles. It’s not in mine either.. Does it exist? Yes, and so when you see it… Don’t talk about it as though you can’t intervene. We are all responsible to do something about it… So do it! Don’t be cowards. Otherwise shut it.

  • c gander

    its quite clear with the response you have had that LE GROVE is followed i get abbused on untold for my many disagreements with your ‘lord’ wenger.

  • CS1

    Racism is one of the reasons why i stopped reading Le Grove, one other is the negativity of the Blog, its like a chat room for Bi*ches coz all they do is moan. there is enough hate in the world so there is no need to add to it. peace

  • Common Sensei

    To be fair to Untold, I have never experienced the sort of disrespect and clear lack of standard manners here as I experienced in just a few short hours over on LG today.

    And bearing in mind that I went there purely to find a common ground and stop the arguments between the two sets of fans – it seems incredulous to me that these same people (who were doing nothing but offend, there was no positive content there to read) who are posting all this vicious …. rubbish basically, is the only word for it!

    It seems incredulous to me that the people responsible for contaminating decent blogging sites with hate filled rants; **purely designed** to incite an aggrevated response from the observer – are now appearing on this website and trying to apportion the blame to those of us on Untold, who by my recognition since I have used the site – have an extremely high level of politeness and manners.

    These guys are not just intelligent posters – they KNOW how you should speak to other human beings to create a good atmosphere and friendly relations.

    Infact even though I tried my utmost to befriend the posters of LG as well as I have everybody here at Untold – there were 2 particular posters who wouldn’t let it happen.

    At every point they could, they sabotaged my arguments with insults then refused to justify them. And to top it off they then started telling me I should ‘go elsewhere if I was going to keep up the argument’.

    I refuse to go there now, even though 8/10 of their posters are OK – it is the attitude and that total lack of common decency which makes me think:

    These guys are not worthy of my time, they are not true fans of the Arsenal culture, because they lack the nouse to debate and the patience to listen.

  • Bootoomee

    From “A blog where you can have an opinion, not get one” cometh the following:

    Geoff says:
    September 5, 2010 at 10:46
    “Ahmed if you behave yourself and stop telling me to think before I write, I will let you blog, otherwise you can blog elsewhere.

    And no you can’t say what you want.”

    Anyone notice the blatant irony? And considering how mean and rude Geoff can be when insulting those with whom he disagrees his thin-skinness baffles me.

    Continue:

    Ahmad From Syria says:
    September 5, 2010 at 10:58
    “Geoff I will tell you first that I’m sorry if I offend you in any way but each time I post something against your opinion you will directly hit me back and talk about Syria and how if I will write something they will get me and all of that I don’t see any need for that I just gave you my idea if you don’t like it just don’t post it as I see there is no need for Syria Vs any other county I’m here because I love Arsenal and I like your blog not to fight or anything ( this is only for you no need to post it ) sorry again”

    Geoff says:
    September 5, 2010 at 11:00
    “Then we’ll leave it there Ahmed, you are free to blog, welcome back.”

    This exchange sounds like one between a slave and his master. WTF? As a humanist, I am pained to see anyone be so subservient to the whims of another person. Just sad and pathetic.

    And talking of threat of violence:

    Max Tobias says:
    September 5, 2010 at 10:08
    “Wenger is a moron who should be murdered and strung up from the stadium. What has he ever done for us? I wish we could go back to the days of rampant success before this skinflint charlatan darkened our doors.”

    Great article Ronnie, you spoke my mind!

  • c gander

    What really gets to me is the slight hypocrisy from untold Arsenal constantly digging out L-G dishing dirt all the time and bitching its an obsession.Cant stand the ‘brushing aside’ ARSENALS fans with a different view. ‘sitting on your high horse’ does sound about right.L-G never dedicate blogs to untold and brainwashed you guys are,theres no balance to your thinking and maybe doomers have this problem too? Football is a sport 1st business 2nd and by 2011 it will be 7 years since a league title SEVEN, are you going to tell me im impatient and not a true fan because I believe 7 to be long time Fact of the matter…..IT IS. One trophy isn’t a lot to ask for in 7 years.granted unlucky in 06 and competed in 08.

  • WalterBroeckx

    This was posted by reggie 57 on September 5th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
    “Just a quick word! I BLOG ON LE GROAN as you call it! neither am i a racist, a thug, a doomer, im just a normal working class guy who’s fed up to the back teeth with the way our great club is being run at the moment! Le Grove give’s you a chance to vent your anger/dismay with out IDIOTS LIKE YOU getting on your high horse and telling us how rosy the garden look’s !!”

    I think this sums it up. This seems to be a post of a person who blogs over there(he claims it anyway) and the culture of insulting is part of his nature.

    And it doesn’t give me the chance to post something over there, Reggie57. The chance we do give you and we even let you insult us.

  • Ronnie Brown

    C Gander, I’m sorry but what your saying is untrue, I wrote the article as I mentioned and I wasn’t digging up any dirtsheets, I was just reading Le Grove to check any Arsenal news as I did regularly and then see all these comments (yet again)and that’s where the article came from. And I’ve said SEVERAL times that I have no problem with critism of Arsenal or Arsene but THREATS OF ASSUALT and RACISM I do have a problem with. There is nothing wrong with expressing an opinion but certain things go beyond that and that’s what I was saying. My personal opinions are more inclined to Untold, but I don’t dismiss Le Grove’s points and issues, I would debate back but how easily and freely people throw such vile nasty insults about is off putting and inciting violence and hatred is unacceptable.

  • c gander

    Both sites/forums should ignore eachother,its clear you dont agree even on the most common ground untold for me do great analytical and statistical blogs,interesting and informing LG allow you to vent your anger and talk about issues you would rant about in the pub with your mates BOTH of you are needed to accommodate every fan as we are all different and whether you are less educated or from poor background or anothher race it doesnt mean you care any less. If racism has gone on then let LG have what comes to them no one likes a tell tale.

  • Common Sensei

    What it comes down to:

    You need to better control your posters, because they are posting stuff that is not right. Far too offensive for public domain, shattering the good repute of our club and it’s member fans.

    The admins are the responsible parties for the website; but the posters are individually responsible for what they write.

    It has to end, it comes to a stage where you actually feel a responsibility yourself to do something!! I know I do and it’s none of my business – it is just totally bang out of order to let it carry on; because people are basically getting bullied and offended for their views.

    I was livid when I read some of the rubbish on LG earlier today and I took a deep breath and tried to reason with everybody there.

    Most were at least a tad reasonable if a little uncouth and mannerless; but that’s fine I can handle unintentional rudeness. It was the blatant baiting and looking for trouble and lying that really annoyed me.

    This is exactly why Arsenal do not want their official logo used on these blogs; they cannot trust the content! You think you would get away with that kind of thing on the official site??

    Of course not so why should you get away with it here?

    I am done trying to defend LG or find middle ground, they just need to stop acting like anger-driver children – grow up and post sense or just don’t post at alll.

  • Le Grove is written and read by inbreds

    How such an obviously nonsense blog is so popular is beyond me – LeGrove edit things so that only their point of view comes through in the comments, and will only allow posts criticising them to be published if they are written by someone even more obviously stupid than them. That way they look less stupid.

    I read every single Arsenal blog and LeGrove is by far the worst – written by idiots for idiots, it is the Daily Star of the Arsenal blogosphere. Half the people on that site sound like the muppet you get stuck next to down at the pub who is so stupid you just humour him – because explaining will be too much for his little brain to handle.

    There is certainly a racist undertone to the site and a strong dislike of Wenger at the core. Is it because he’s been less successful recently, or is it simply because he’s french? The crowd at LeGrove all sound like they have been influenced by the Anglo-centric media who paint everybody as lowlifes, other than their precious rooneykins and other “honest” (English) footballers who the premiership “should have more of”.

    This strong blinkered dislike is similiar to that of Myles@ANR, only far less intelligently put. When i read the comments section and the pondlife that pass for normal posters over there, it makes me worry. You are right to highlight their racist undertones, but wrong to waste any time on them, since most of them are inbreds with a penchant for white lightning beating at their core.

    If i was a spud and wanted to piss all over everything good about Arsenal, while making sure all Arsenal fans never truly appreciate how great wenger has been/is now/will be in the future, then i would write LeGrove or ANR and see how many blind sheep would join me in destroying a great legacy. These sites sit there chanting “Wenger’s lost it” and “get him out” and if it happened and they got their way we would see how badly the heap of muck manager they chose to replace him did in his shoes.

    If you have an IQ of less than 30 and think we should buy English forever, LeGrove is for you. If you have an IQ over 30, but are a Wenger hating spud who lives to criticise from the comfortable shadows of your PC, then go and read ANR. If you don’t fall exclusively into either of these categories you might want to try Arseblog, Untold, TheGunningHawk, Goodplaya, Gunnerblog, to name but a few. If you love to watch a non-native speaker of English get creative with our language, then CarlosVelaNews is a must 🙂

  • Ronnie Brown

    I disagree that you should ignore racism and threats of assualt, it’s not even anything personal against Le Grove, it is something personal against violence and racism, it just happens to be on Le Grove, the hyporcisy there can be overlooked but the other things can’t as it’s a matter of personal integrity. I think it was Gandhi who said “Non co-operation with evil is as much a duty as coperation with good” if everyone was quiet and cowardly about important issues the world would degenerate into an even worse place. Also many feel they don’t have an alternative cause as I said Le Grove is probably the best formatted and popular blog so hopefully more people will start to realise they have an alternative place to speak with other fans if they are looking for somewhere different, it’s their free choice, but here I’ve found you can debate, you can there too sometimes but sometimes it degenerates into name calling and exxageration. I like a site where you can debate, disagree and provide valid points and discuss things not somewhere where your verbally attacked. Since I first came to this site I was delighted I found it, was able to speak to the contributers with respect and debate rather than just get into a personal mud slinging match.

  • Bootoomee

    c gander, if I understand your last post: smart people post at Untold while angry ignorant ones go lo LG. Thanks for clearing that up.

  • c gander

    I do have a problem with that too, RACISM cannot be tongue n cheek but I believe threats of assault could be depending on the context. I haven’t read what you have,I do read both and sway towards LG simply through pattern we have ourselves in. I hope the next blog is back to the the usual anyway.maybe on your next piece I would like to hear what you feel on the bigger picture our common ground……Arsenal! lol. Thanks for responding though ronnie.

  • reggie 57

    WalterBroeckx
    A message just for you I never insulted you so what’s the problem ? you are welcome to comment on le grove im sure geoff and pedro would look forward to your carefully worded post’s? we need people like you different strokes for different folk’s!! c’mon there’s nothing to be afraid of!!!

  • Ronnie Brown

    Well that’s two bits of common ground lol, anti racism and Arsenal supporter, an Arsenal based piece will certainly be my next article if Tony permits. I agree certain things like that can be tongue in cheek, however there have been some persitant posts regarding the same assualt and they has been with no humor in it whatsoever just basically a repeated incitment of violence in a serious manner, and with some people posting this frequently and agreeing, and nothing being done about it, it could actually one day happen, that’s why it needs to be moderated.. I understand you haven’t read what we have though so I understand from your perspective and appreciate we were able to talk in a civilised way without making it personal.

  • c gander

    This is what im saying ronnie allow them to shoot themselves in the foot people will find alternatives, whats more satisfactory? ridiculing the site to non existence or letting them ridicule themselves to a dozen followers or so.People already turn a blind eye to evil people are cowardly especially in world issues e.g bilderburg group…. thats another story!

  • The Blaster

    I may appear to be going off topic, but please bear with me…I would say the main theme running through LG is aging working class people feeling alienated by both modern Arsenal and modern football in general. There was a time when football fan-dom was the cosy preserve of the british working class,the players, the managers, the lot….they were all ‘one of us’.

    Arsenal, with their masters graduate French manager and multicultural multinational highly professional team have moved maybe further away from that old world than any other team, and when you combine that with other things like the lottery and talent shows, which are heavily marketed to the parents and kids of working class families, where over and over we are spoon fed that nothing matter but winning… you have all the ingredients you need for a wholly negative results obsessed site like LG.

    We all talk about the beautiful game and such and are passionate in our defense of it, but that was never what it WAS about for many people in the days of the Damned United. To an extent, I think many of the Grovers would actually be happier in that virtual reality around Harry Redknapp, where everyone is a crouchie, scholesy, giggsy, mikey owen, stevie gerrard… etc., because Harry is either a living timerwarp, or more likely the only top flight manager who still understands that a section of his fans can only respond well when he creates a fictional comfort zone. Arsene is not ‘one of us’ in the way the grovers would dream of a manager or player. He never will be. It IS all about that.

    It is easy to let alienation slip into prejudice, to let that resentment that Arsenal is not longer comprised of players and a manager who are ‘one of us’ into active hatred, which then easily falls into racial hatred. I think the people who run the Grove are actually guilty of a greater idealism than pro-arsene sites are, which is that you can run a blog site without visible policing. Anarchy does not result in self disclipine, but instead usually descends fairly sharpish into the lowest common denominator, and rule by the people with the loudest scariest voices. There is still a line that should not be crossed, and even self proclaimed working class people know where it lies. You can see many of the other posters using chummy phrases like ‘I think you’re going too far mate’ to address the racism, and it’s no more effective than telling a mugger to ‘just leave it’. The loud voices win the day again and again. The ‘working class’ way? just leave it, and go read another site.

  • Arsene Apprentice

    @Ronnie,
    As you know this a fact based site. As such I would hope that first a contingent of LG would be permitted to air his facts. Because I feel LG is being unfairly indicted! And, by that I mean as much as I respect your opinion as to your complaints. I have seen nothing but your opinions in support of this article. I would like to see LG do a full thorough analysis of things written by the authors which showed Racism. And, a brief analysis of posters (who I feel LG has no responsibility whatsoever). At the end of this I would hope we all can come together in terms of Racism!
    As I have stated before I was censored at LG so I am not a LG supporter. But, I feel that LG was unfairly represented here today. But, good can come out of this after all between two polar sites if we ban any form of racism. Opinions are opinions and facts are facts.

  • super sam super sam

    i believe i recently said something should be done to patch relations with le grove, more-so the fans though

    i now realize that can’t be done. i presume that most of the folks at le grove are miserable and cannot handle any disappointment

    that blog feeds the mentally troubled. it’s not a “go support another club!” thing, i just can’t understand why fans support us and then believe arsenal should be the biggest commanding football power in the world automatically because they are arsenal. it makes no sense and it’s all about world perspective, these are the same people who have very odd morals in everyday life. i saw someone comment that this blog was riddled with dissent, the difference here is the staff vent about people who have no standards, almost no conscience, are racist and generally are people you want nothing to do with.

    bottom line though, there will always be a full emirates and our true supporters will outweigh the negativity.

    DISCLAIMER: I CRITICIZE WENGER ABOUT CERTAIN THINGS, PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS. respect and human decency are a different game and divert attention from the football.

    the slime there feed on negativity, they are most likely there to create drama for themselves, teenagers make up the majority i’m sure. not many older gentlemen and women are as adept at computing as you tony

    ronnie, i thought the exact same, well done.

    sorry for ranting tony and co., ronnie that was an excellent article.

    now i’m going to go get high with my friends and enjoy life, something i’m sure most grovers cannot do.

    the great thing about this website is, some might not agree with what i’m about to do. even the editors, but i wouldn’t be ridiculed, maybe recieve some constructive critism. i get that from my friends, and while i’m not an active member of this community, the people who are get treated very well, even if they don’t agree with the article.

    wow, i just kept going. this season will be a joy to watch

  • HansRott

    Now here’s a coincidence.

    This last week I finally gave up bothering with “Le Grove”. Why? Someone posted a “joke” about a Moslem dying and ascending a ladder to heaven. It was so massively abusive yet no one batted an eyelid. For me this was the last straw.

    Of course Geoff, Pedro, gambon and their pals have been spouting their brand of Arsenal support for as long as I can remember. Every week, it seemed, someone was pointing out racist comments. And every time a crowd of regulars gathered to shout the accuser down.

    It could be anything from a demand for an all “Anglo-Saxon” spine in the Arsenal team to habitual anti-Semitic sentiments. Time and time again complaints would be dealt with by a pack waiting to pounce.

    I used to think that these people simply didn’t know what racism was, but I was deluding myself. Le Grove not only knows what racism is, it provides a safe haven for it.

    What was it they said about David Mellor … “an ugly man inside and out” … well, swap a word and it pretty much applies to Le Grove. It’s a very ugly blog.

  • Arsene Apprentice

    Blaster,

    Most people have got to realize “times are changing” but football never changes. It’s about technique and tactics and learning how to score goals. Yes, money and the world changes but how does one explain the brilliance of the names you say? What about Sir Stanley? And, countless Englishmen who were responsible for 66? Grasp at straws and you will always grasp at straws. Commit to football and you will always win! Football is as color blind as a bullet who strikes a target who is white. Get over the excuses and deal with your own frailties and colour will go away. Did you know Pele’s first ball was rags? His first football shoes were mirred with eggs and fish smell? He was black but football did not care! All’s that football records is goals and the hardwork that comes with being the best! All the rest is BS!

  • Ronnie Brown

    Yes I have plenty of facts to support that there was racism posted on Le Grove, I will try to find them if they haven’t been deleted, if anyone else has some of the posts from members who have been racist please show. Le Grove say on their About section…

    “If anybody does get abusive, we immediately remove their comment and block them from returning.”

    And this is factually not true, there is plenty of evidence showing threats towards Arsene and also racism posted on the site. I have some saved aswel from the past, I will try to locate them.

  • Uk

    Get over it dude, just like your blog is for fans who think wenger can never do wrong so is his blog for those who think wenger can never do right(anymore)
    it’s an arsenal blog not an ‘arsene’ blog. Wenger is our most successful manager but he’s also the manager who’s won nothing in 5years

  • Ronnie Brown

    Ok I have been on their site now for about 1 miniute and have already found things, am I allowed to post them now? Because Tony edited the terms out in the orginal post, if I get approval I will post but they are there.

  • Ronnie Brown

    UK, I don’t really know what your talking about, did you read the orginal post? It said “don’t mind critism”, it’s the things that go beyond that that are the issue (the persistant incitment of violence/assualt and racism).

  • Ronnie Brown

    Also the racism is not just an isolated incident, it has been going on for a long time, it’s just becoming more and more frequent, some previous comments also said this and even found violent quotes I had not even seen myself.

  • Gooner49

    i first wrote a post on Le Grove a few years back to answer some of their doom mongering with a bit of optimism saying the team might surprise them. I didn’t visit the site again for a while but when i did (after the season had finished) I was ridiculed by Geoff and my face rubbed in the fact that I was wrong & we had won nothing!
    I couldn’t believe it! A fellow Arsenal fan insulting me & ridiculing me because I actually believed we might win something.
    That was my rude awakening as to what that site was all about. I have since been “banned” from Le Grove for the same reason as the author and i agree that it is sickening reading some of the posts allowed on that site.
    I honestly can say it feels more like i’m reading a militant Spurs blog than an Arsenal Fan blog.

    I do have to say that Pedro seems to be making a conscious effort to be a bit more positive this season but the comments section is still shocking.

    But i guess we shouldn’t be surprised, idiots attract idiots so really the only people left who blog on that site are the mindless, violent, xenophobic thugs who every club, unfortunately even our own, have as “fans”.

  • Ronnie Brown

    And relations can be easily repaired, the only thing that has to happen is for Le Grove to moderate the outwardly racist posts and anyone who uses highly offensive racist terms (we know what they are)and anyone who incites violence, both of these things are unacceptable and it says on their about section “If anybody does get abusive, we immediately remove their comment and block them from returning” and that is not done because some of the racist terms are still on there days later. If that’s done everyone can just go about their buisness and agree to disagree but people have a right to stand up against incitemnt of violence and racial preduice and hatred.

  • Arsene Apprentice

    And so Ronnie we all have to rely on reputation and honour. If you have been dishonoured by way of Racism then the facts will be brought out I am sure by you and many others. Sleep well!

  • The Blaster

    I guess the debate about how low you can allow ‘banter’ to go is a little like how much violence you allow in films. It’s probably highly related to blowing someone’s head off playing ‘Doom’ that someone could consider it completely above board to use the same phrase about Wenger when he doesn’t satisfy the particular bloke’s transfer fetishes. The most frustrating thing about the anti arsene lot is that they wander around in the belief that Wenger doesn’t see the flaws that they do, despite working with the team 24/7. Like most I thought at the end of last season that we needed a more confident presence between the sticks (very carefully chosen words). What I also saw was that almost every time we entered a period in a match which looked like we may concede, it was because the midfield were giving it away and not trying to win it back in midfield, thereby putting our centrebacks and keeper under enormous pressure. Adding to that a back four that was frequently comprised of second and third choice easily-outpaced centrebacks and there were plenty of things that could have undermined our keepers confidence apart from their own performance. Almunia and Fabianski were both lacking in confidence when they were being surrounded at set pieces, and this is something that they have needed to work on, which is fine… everybody always needs to improve in SOME way… but when their own team has been so ready to leave them at the mercy of the opposition’s attack dogs, how can they improve? I’m not saying that I wouldn’t have felt more confident in the season if some seasoned consistent premiership stopper had arrived, but in actual fact, the reason we conceded a lot last season was actually to do with the whole team, not the keeper.

    LG may be the home of funny ‘banter’ (Frankly it often resembles facebook more than it resembles an arsenal blog) but it is also, it appears, home to the people who are very much into short term symptomatic relief rather than a cure for the disease. Arsene is frustrating because his quest for the latter leaves often fans exposed and insecure. If he can find it, then I think we’re on course for another Invincibles or better. I’m not generally one for faith, but in this sodding game where a stray tackle can end a season, what else is there?

  • Ronnie Brown

    Thanks AA, I wasn’t personally racially insulted there but I was highly offended by the racist terms I read and many times in the past I have been concerned about undertone and sometimes blatant racism there and have even spoke with friends about it and they felt and saw it too. They also regularly put a persons nationality before the insult, like African c**t etc and nothing is done about it, it’s like it’s acceptable and it’s highly offensive and it’s uncomfortable for our African/Foreign fans to see this (and myself), that’s another issue that is important, I don’t want other nationalities to feel we have a preduice against them based off their nationality or race because of the posters there. Well I actually do have a few of the posts, I’m just not sure whether I’m allowed to post them as they were previously edited, understandably not to offend further, but I think by editing them some may of not realised how offensive the terms were, they shouldn’t of been allowed, whether it’s a “joke” or not. But thanks, and sleep well too.

  • Arsene Apprentice

    Blaster,

    I remind you of the topic at hand. Violence, although mentioned many, many times is not Racism. If LG violates you as you have mentioned we are open to your factual grievances. And, we will troubleshoot them to the best of our ability. The faculty includes a vast amount of knowledge including economics, refereeing, injuries, and overall Arsenal facts.

  • Ronnie Brown

    Also comparing Wenger to Hitler which was done there isn’t right either.

  • Uk

    ‘Rubbish’ I blog @ lg &there’s nothing racist about lg. It’s perfectly alright for fans to believe arsene has a bias for french players, if u don’t see that well everyone else does, &there’s no reason why they shouldn’t think that our motto should be quality first &last
    Don’t tel me about the ahmed issue, it’s ok for geoff to be pissed off when a blogger tells him to do his research b4 posting (esp when the blogger doesn’t know what he’s saying)
    But my most crucial thought is this, why this massive division among fans(loyal &loving, & like it or not the anti-wengers are almost as many the pro-wengers) of the same club? I haven’t seen it elsewhere (man utd’s case is different cos most fans agree with the anti-glazers,tho they differ on the way to oust them) i think it tells us there’s something seriously wrong with our club. Either it’s doing the wrong things or doing the right things but not communicating them properly to it’s fans.

  • Bootoomee

    For Arsene Apprentice and others doubting Ronnie, here is a repost of my lst post. A poster named Ahmad was viciously attacked and ridiculed by Geoff because he (Ahmad – a Sryian) had the nerve to tell Geoff “to think before he write”. The short snippets are from after Geoff had battered him into submission; pretty sad! There is also an evidence of violent post at the end.

    See for yourself:

    From “A blog where you can have an opinion, not get one” cometh the following:

    Geoff says:
    September 5, 2010 at 10:46
    “Ahmed if you behave yourself and stop telling me to think before I write, I will let you blog, otherwise you can blog elsewhere.

    And no you can’t say what you want.”

    Anyone notice the blatant irony? And considering how mean and rude Geoff can be when insulting those with whom he disagrees his thin-skinness baffles me.

    Continue:

    Ahmad From Syria says:
    September 5, 2010 at 10:58
    “Geoff I will tell you first that I’m sorry if I offend you in any way but each time I post something against your opinion you will directly hit me back and talk about Syria and how if I will write something they will get me and all of that I don’t see any need for that I just gave you my idea if you don’t like it just don’t post it as I see there is no need for Syria Vs any other county I’m here because I love Arsenal and I like your blog not to fight or anything ( this is only for you no need to post it ) sorry again”

    Geoff says:
    September 5, 2010 at 11:00
    “Then we’ll leave it there Ahmed, you are free to blog, welcome back.”

    This exchange sounds like one between a slave and his master. WTF? As a humanist, I am pained to see anyone be so subservient to the whims of another person. Just sad and pathetic.

    And talking of threat of violence:

    Max Tobias says:
    September 5, 2010 at 10:08
    “Wenger is a moron who should be murdered and strung up from the stadium. What has he ever done for us? I wish we could go back to the days of rampant success before this skinflint charlatan darkened our doors.”

    Great article Ronnie, you spoke my mind!

  • Ronnie Brown

    There’s also been many examples of saying people should throw things at Wenger and calling people African c**ts etc, and other nationalties, and the offensive term for an Asian beggining with P with c**t after it was posted there also and was allowed to stay… and is stil there…

  • Bootoomee

    UK, intimidation is the right name for Geoff’s action against Ahmad. His behaviour is only akin to dictatorship. And that is from a blogger who beefs AW for his influence at AFC. Thank goodness Geoff’s not in charge. And on racism or xenophobia (makes little difference to me), why should Geoff use Syrian type of government to insult Ahmad on an issue on Arsenal? This is Ronnie’s point and I totally agree.

  • Uk

    I notice that quite a number of posters here are basically disgusted by the degree of ‘doomy pessimism’ in lg, well so are many lg posters disgusted with the degree of ‘blind optimism’ in untold arsenal. What does an early season optimist expect from geoff @the end of a 5th trophyless season? congratulations? Come on, an ‘I told u so’ is in order.
    Unless we meet halfway we may just have to settle for ‘all or nothing’

  • Arsene Apprentice

    Ronnie,

    At this site I can assure you nothing like this will ever occur. Welcome home!

  • Bootoomee

    UK, no one is meeting you half way. Keep throwing your tantrums. Your leader, Geoff claimed that the Emirates will be half empty as season tickets holders are not renewing: FALSE! First and only home match was sold out. Not all gooners are blind and childish egotists like you le grove mob. We at Untold care about long time success of Arsenal. I guess it’s because we are mostly professionals with our own lives. I don’t need Arsenal’s success to feel accomplished with my friends; I have done that in my own personal life. You moaners need to get a life. And when you insult each other, kindly refrain from using race and nationality and stop wishing for violence against those with whom you disagree. Look up at my previous post if you need evidence of this.

  • Uk

    @Bootoomee, if I was ahmed &i felt intimidated by that I’d go have my head checked
    Let me try explaining, geoff’s pissed that ahmed tells him to ‘think’ &research b4 he writes, he tells ahmed that he should be better able to appreciate freedom of speech &bloggin considering the fact that it’s not so free in his country. Also if ahmed continues in the aforementioned manner he’sL be barred(which isn’t strange, by the way) Ahmed apologizes &geoff let’s him continue in the discussion. No big deal

  • Uk

    @bootoomee, u think only untold arsenal bloggers are ‘professionals with lives’, whew! I guess that makes the rest of us ‘dead professionals’
    Thanks for the advice, but everyone knows if they needed a club’s success to feel accomplished that club wouldn’t be arsenal. We may be ‘egotistical pessimists’ but we ain’t foolish man. Cheers man.

  • Arsene Apprentice

    Bootoome,

    Are you a plant? I smell something fishy! The point is Racism not violence. And, it seems to me rather than place blame your crew should be honest…. I love Arsenal and what Wenger has done for the club. I am uninterested in things not associated with bringing Arsenal forward. Get rest the facts will sort this out.. Finally, this site is a place where honesty and Arsenal issues are always well thought out. If you care you should contribute if not go back to where you belong!

  • Ronnie Brown

    To be fair, violence was also one of the main issues, the title of the article Tony changed, but it wasn’t orginally titled racism among anti arsenal arsenal blogs, the title contained Le Grove and it was about the unacceptable comments there ie racism/violence and also some other issues.

  • shotta-gunna

    Ronnie – You have been very good in defending your point of view against the LG apologists who simply wish to portray their racist language and chauvinism as simply a “joke” and “banter”. The one thing I disagreed with Tony was his deletion of your quotes from le-groan which demonstrated that your accusations were based on fact and not merely misinterpretation of of the language. (Come on Tony – quotes are evidence to prove a point. We are not children we can make separate the language of racists from your own anti-racist convictions.) Again it is startling how the posters from the Indian sub-continent, Middle Asia and Africa put up with Pedro and Geoff’s frequent demeaning comments about people and footballers of non-white cultures and races. Given how England and Europe have made it illegal to say anything demeaning about Jews and the Americans have laws against hate-speech, one wonders about the double-standard.

    The language of hate and intolerance has consequences. As Martin Niemöller famously said:

    When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist.

    When they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.

    When they came for the trade unionists,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist.

    When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;
    I wasn’t a Jew.

    When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out.

  • Bootoomee

    UK,
    Thanks for making my point for me. I never knew that asking anybody to ‘think and research b4 before they write’ is such an offence that demands a lecture on freedom of speech requiring the use of the poster’s nationality as a source of insult. If you cannot see this blatant hypocrisy from “A blog where you can have an opinion, not get one”, then this conversation is a waste of time. Plus using Ahmad’s country to insult him is at the very list xenophobia and very wrong. What would Geoff have said if Ahmad from Syria is Andrew from Scotland? Banter, argue, even do name calling just don’t use people’s races and nationalities; and no expression of violence against anybody.

  • Bootoomee

    Arsene Apprentice,

    I respect you but respect is reciprocal. Kindly highlight the part of my post you disagree with and I’ll happily address it. Tony knows me well as I have posted an article here using my real name. Your desperation to get a middle ground with the childish egotists (I say it again) from le Grove is affecting your reasoning. I don’t care about your feelings towards AW as long as you do not wish violence on him:

    (from Le Grove: “Max Tobias says:
    September 5, 2010 at 10:08
    “Wenger is a moron who should be murdered and strung up from the stadium. What has he ever done for us? I wish we could go back to the days of rampant success before this skinflint charlatan darkened our doors.”

    I already presented an example of a poster whose nationality was used by Geoff to ridicule him. If you think this is right then maybe my respect for you is misguided.

  • Bootoomee

    Thanks Shotta-Gunna, Thanks!

    And Arsene Apprentice, I am where I belong (as I believe Tony can attest), are you?

  • Arsene Apprentice

    Be,
    A lot to think about tonight! And, my loyalties speak loudly and clearly as always. I am on the side of football. So make judgements on that. You will neither gain nor lose by knowing where or who I belong to. I am my own person. I loved this team before and after this site. So, what do we have here? An article which has nothing to do with football and lot’s things to think about? You all can figure this mess out. It’s not my place or my cup of tea.

  • Ronnie Brown

    Thank you Shotta Gunna, that was a powerful and real post. It is also very true they demean foreign countries and have a superiorty complex, the evidence for this is startling, but to anyone intelligent who reads the blogs it should be obvious, they have been called out for it in the past. And what you quoted is so true and relevant, if we all allowed wrongs to just go without protest just cause it isn’t us the world would be in an even more terrible place, I’m not black but it doesn’t mean I will not stand up for equal racial rights, I’m not a women but it doesn’t mean I wont stand up against sexism, you have to stand up for whats right, not just allow something to continue just cause it doesn’t directly effect you.

  • Ronnie Brown

    Also in my opinion the article was very relevant, this is an Arsenal blog so the way our fans are portrayed, incitments of violence against our manager, and excessive abusive of our players is relevant to Arsenal, and football in general especially considering there is a kick racism out of football campaign, if some of our fans are offended by racial content on their site I do think that matters, I’m a life long Arsenal supporter and I believe with Arsenal being a very multi racial club it’s an important issue, we have African players so calling people “African c**ts” is not on in my opinion.

    It’s very easy to sort out, all Le Grove have to do is moderate the comments that are abusive like they said they would, highly offensive racial insults have no place in a comments section, especially since they said they don’t tolerate abuse, and neither does constant talk of violence towards our manager. If they just do that they will improve their blog, if they don’t and attempt to “give me stick” or untold stick that is pointless as I’m not affected by “stick”, I am grown man and it doesn’t bother me in the slightest, I wrote this to express my opinion on the issue and for others who feel the same, which there are many to relate to, both have been accomplished so nothing anybody says can change that.

  • Uk

    @bootoomee
    Sorry pal I slept off, woke up thinking you had said something interesting while I was gone, I’m quite disappointed though, now you seem not to understand the english language anymore
    I’m off again, promise you’l wake me when u think of somethin to say, good nyt buddy

  • Kushagra India

    We talk about Le-Grove what about ENGLAND FOOTBALL TEAM which U tell me is a microcosm of the nation full of Infidels Sleazers corrupted minds U all should stop watching England in my opinion

  • Jam

    Le Grove is not bad. You should try Gunnerblog. Now thats a bad blog right there.

  • durban_gun

    UNTOLD ARSENAL ,DESI GUNNER AND ARSEBLOG ARE THE BEST BLOGGS AROUND I GOT BANNED FROM LE GROVE FOR TELLING PEDRO AND GEOFF THAT ALL THEY DO IS MOAN LIKE OLD GRANNIES WITH WET PANTIES .THEY THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL, EVEN IF WENGER HIMSELF POSTED ANONYMOUSLY AND TOLD DEM WHO WE WERE GONNA SIGN AND WHO WE COULDNT SIGN THEY WOULD STILL INSULT HIM .AS FOR THE RACISM THAT IS NOTHING SHORT OF DISGRACEFUL

  • Tim

    I read Le Grove when it first started up and it was far more moderate than current incarnation. I think they have (ab)used shock tactics in order to grow the website and essentially prey on their fairly ignorant readership. Cynical stuff.

    Oh, and a word of support for Gunnerblog – he’s one of the best bloggers around, but stopped blogging regularly so the community disappeared. When regular blogs recommenced then the only active commenters left were Le Grove rejects (probably for being too racist)!

    Anybody from Le Grove who has come on trying to criticise this blog for allowing this post needs to look up hypocrisy in the dictionary. There is no other blog for any football club that tries as hard to discuss reality as this one.

  • ignatz

    Just to report that I had a guest post up on Gunning Hawk a year or more back – around the time when the site started. I’d been invited by one of the guys running it who’d found my blog and liked my writing.

    This particular piece was a piss-take of Le Grove, an article about how we should sell the entire first team and buy Chelsea or something, complete with hyperventilating style, no-full stops, each paragraph is one sentence that goes on and on, basically just a list of thoughts, a bit like this.

    Anyway, within hours Gunning Hawk had removed my post with no explanation or apology to me, and from then on I wasn’t able to comment on Le Grove any more. I’m guessing Chris at Gunning Hawk – a new blog in a competitive market – got yelled at by the big bully boys over at Le Grove.

    So I too find it very ironic that they sell themselves as the site where you can have an opinion, not get one – because you clearly can’t, not even on someone else’s site.

    Cheers, Greg.

  • Ronnie Brown

    The many positive responses show there are a lot of great Arsenal fans that are good people. Thanks.

  • Dick (aka Willy)

    TIME TO GET A GRIP, EVERYONE????

    Let’s start by getting a few facts straight first:

    Le Grove is a well-loved site and the opinions on there are independent ones. As very clearly stated in the site’s disclaimer, those opinions are — “in no way affiliated with Arsenal” — the same way that this site, Untold Arsenal, isn’t affiliated with Arsenal either. Let’s not differentiate between what’s affiliated and what isn’t; your post, to me, surreptiously suggests YOUR site is by so vehemently denying that Le Grove’s is.

    Further still, you talk about “the law”, Tony. Well a disclaimer, as used by Le Grove, is merely a legal barrier which facilitates the separation of a supporter’s views and those of the club they support. So please, let’s not get all dramatic about “legalities”.

    Regarding Geoff’s comments on “no French players” and (re: Wilshire) “It was the girls’ fault”, then yes I do find those comments pretty wrong as, a) I’m half-French, and b) because if that was my or anyone else’s girlfriend Jack did it to, I/they would have different views on the matter– Arsenal player or not.

    However, weighing up those isolated wrongs, I also find plenty of what Le Grove does and says to be RIGHT. And, to be fair, if you have a pop at Geoff for writing that kind of stuff, he at least has the decency to respond to you — sometimes apologizing — but always providing a reason for his views (however subjective they may be). Pedro is an excellent poster, and yet to post anything even remotely controversial during the time I’ve been reading that blog.

    As for getting the police involved– if you’re so concerned about racism, Tony, do you really think it would be best practice to occupy the police’s time regarding as futile an inquiry as this, when said time could be better served responding to the heavy volume of racist attacks experienced on London’s streets every day? I find it utterly pathetic — borderline desperate — that you would proffer such a thing. The terms under which Le Grove have even come close to the racism line are so circumstantial – i.e. discussing a football player’s nationality and therefore inherent playing style/likely cultural influence – that it would be like Le Grove reporting you to the police for slander.

    Whilst I’m not agreeing (and actually disagree) with Geoff’s comments on a player’s nationality, I would say there is a big difference between his published views and the kind of senseless racism you’re suggesting Le Grove seek to sponsor. Knowing a little about the legal industry, I would actually say Le Grove probably have more of a case amounting to slander againt you than you have on their alleged ‘racism’.

    More worryingly, Tony: whilst you seem like a genuine contributor, and someone who has a key issue such as racism close to his heart, I can’t help but detect the slightest hint of envy in your post towards Le Grove. I’m not doubting your commitment to the eradication of racism in football and the world in general, however I do feel it is ‘pleasantly convenient’ that the source of your objections also ‘happens to be’ a rival blog (not that Arsenal blogs should view each other in that way).

    What leads me to believe this?

    Well, in addition to the fact you have a photo of yourself on the blog header and beside every post you write (what other blog does that????), I also thought this comment…

    “Fantastic writing with a hellish amount of tongue in cheek” – Editor: Tony Attwood

    …is more than a tad self-promotional and consistent with someone who’s conscious of who they are as much as what they write. You carryig that quote on this site, of which you are editor, would be like Steven Spielberg’s next film’s poster carrying the quotation:

    “Best movie ever made.” – Steven Spielberg

    Slightly megalomaniac, wouldn’t you say??

    Hence, as much as you care about the issues you highlight in your post, I believe your image is of equal importance to you. I would even go as far as to suggest that if you were forced to post your views under anonymous pretenses and without your accompanying photograph, I wonder if you’d even bother to write about any of this stuff at all. Maybe I’m wrong– but that’s the impression I get.

    Finally, the comment you made about the posters. THAT, to me, is the most hypocritical thing you could have written. How can you sit there and talk about racism – i.e. the tarring of an INDIVIDUAL based on creed or GROUPED OPINION – then describe every INDIVIDUAL who posts or reads Le Grove as being or supporting racism. You’re like a phoney preacher on American TV warning people that if they don’t pick up the phone and donate RIGHT NOW, then the Angels won’t sing their names. Racism is a word. Its meaning takes many forms and derivatives.

    If you really care about the issues highlighted in your post, Tony, there’s more noble ways to go about them.

  • Ronnie Brown

    The problem is Le Grove claim they don’t tolerate abuse yet they clearly do as they allow the regular posts using racist terms and insults to stand.

  • Ronnie Brown

    No it’s not affiliated but they say that like someone could make the mistake they were, which they couldn’t, they say it so vehemently it’s like they are a rival teams fans.

    It is illegal to incite violence, some posts on Le Grove by it’s users do this, Le Grove may not be accountable for that but the posters are, and by Le Grove not moderating it yet moderating many others reasonable posts kind of shown an acceptance of it.

    The racism wasn’t the issue that the police would be concerned with, it is probably the persistent violent talk incitements of it towards Arsene. I actually am highly involved in pro equality and anti racism, my views and principles extend to everything, I am involved in trying to make the streets more peaceful, that doesn’t mean I ignore other issues not on the street either.

    Tony didn’t write this article, I did, so your posts directed towards him are irrelevant. And Le Grove have no case to post everything before I have actual quotes from their site saved already that prove exactly what we have said.

    Again to reiterate another time, Le Grove say they will not tolerate abuse… abuse gets tolerated, racial terms and slurs and incitements of violence. This is a fact.

    Also from your other comments it didn’t look like you read the article properly…. No-one said everyone on Le Grove is racist, but Le Grove are a blog that allow persistent incitements of violence and racially charged insults.

  • Ronnie Brown

    *case the object to anything

  • Ronnie Brown

    I don’t understand the mentality of anyone who thinks it’s ok to post things saying “pa*i cu*ts” and “african cu*nts” on a football blog.

    And to persistantly takling of attacking Wenger and saying he should be murdered or attacked.

  • Gooner79

    Ronnie, those disclaimers are standard on all blog sites. Young Guns was shut down originally becuase they gave the impression they were affiliated with Arsenal.

    As for your post, well, I see you have provided no evidence of racism or the incitement of violence. You keep repeating yourself, but you can’t justify anything you have written. Where are the facts?

    May I also refer you to a particularly nasty comment about infliciting GBH on one of the authors at Le Grove. That’s been sitting there for a 16 odd hours now. That one comment destroys your whole argument. You can’t manage 150 comments, yet you expect Le Grove to manage over a thousand every single day?

    Dick, you are correct. If anyone should be fearing legal action, it is this blog. Accusing someone of racism without and facts is slanderous.

    Ignatz, have you ever thought that Chris from a gunning hawk just didn’t want to talk about another website? Perhaps he felt there was enough to talk about on the football front? I’d say that was a very mature decision on his part.

    Finally, is there any coincidence that writing about Le Grove and you getting lots of comments coincide? Your article about Theo grabbed 8 responses, this one has 150+. Hit seeking articles to increase revenue streams and shameless jealousy.

  • Terence McGovern

    I suppose that this could go on forever but really we should draw a line under it.

    here is some sage advice.
    Never fight with a pig because you will both end up in the mud and the pig will love it.

    The best way for you all to show your disdain for Le Grove is to never EVER click on their site again. every time you do it gives them credibility and adds to their figures which renews their self belief. Boycott the racist bastards.

    This is particularly quirky blog we have here. It caters for the more intellectually minded with a penchant for tongue in cheek humour.
    we have grown because we have inspired each other not just to comment on the articles but to write them ourselves. Not to add to the debate but to inspire it.

    Leave LeGrove to the racists and retards. Deny them your readership and starve them of the hitrate that they depend on.It is their air. Suffocate them.

    Submit articles here.
    Comment here.
    If the content isn’t what you wish to discuss then write an article on what is and submit it. You WILL get your chance.
    I used to just read, then I started to comment. Finally I submitted articles which were posted for comment by Tony.

    Blogs like this one are rare. there is genuine freedom of speech as long as others are respected. There is genuine flow of different schools of thought and as a result this blog is growing and growing.
    Add to it! Be part of it! Challenge yourself and the others around you and help make this not just a positive Arsenal blog but a movement to combat all that is wrong with other blogs.

  • Ronnie Brown

    Yes I agree.

  • Thats what at Le-grove been saying,Dont read le-grove

    if u Dont like something even after knowing the reasons behind them,making it clear that le-grove and its posters are NOT racist

    Clearly Common Sensei has been lying,saying its all diffused,the post author is still under the state of misunderstanding…

  • If u dont like Le-grove, Dont read it..

    and Start to do something in REAL LIFE abour racism on the streets of your cities,and post your contribution,that will be something really worth appreciating,that this futile misunderstood attempt to have a DIG at Le-grove

  • Ronnie Brown

    The same could be said for you coming on here, “don’t like it STICK to reading Le Grove”. Do you think them allowing someone to post the racial insult to asians beggining with P is ok? That is highly offensive to me.

    And if you haven’t been reading, we do do things in real life, that’s the whole point, what we do is from the heart so it extends to every form, misunderstood is an attempt and twisting things, it’s VERY clear the racism that has been shown,if you can’t see that you are blinded like the people Le Grove claim to be against.

    No misundersanding, I stand 100 percent behind every word I have said, however I am willing to draw a line under it, but will reply to any further comments, if the replies cease I will cease talking about it as I and others have fully made our point now.

  • Ronnie

    Every person have to Man up in this world,i have taken bullshit in my,by i take it on chin,brush up and move forward..

    we are not Kids u see to be schooled

  • anyways

    just as u made ur point,i have made mine..

  • Ronnie Brown

    Just cause you take racism doesn’t mean you should accept it and not stand up against it, and moving foward us exactly what we did, spoke on it and carried on with what I was doing externally to this site, but you have just come on here talking about it again, if you stop it will be done with, no-one said people are kids to be schooled, don’t know where your even getting that from, but many people have agreed with what I have said, I wasn’t schooling anyone, I was expressing MY opinion which I am entitled to do so.

  • Ronnie Brown

    Exactly, that’s fine…

  • kenny smith

    Ok…. This has gotten out of hand.

    Does no one live by the philosophy that if you do not like it do not look at it anymore?

    Irrespective of what Le Grove’s views on racism may be do you not think your life would be a bit easier if you just didnt bother?

    I am Scottish…. if i go onto a blog that is racist to scottish people then i will just leave simple as that. I really couldnt care what other people say. Let them say it. Who cares if they are racist? Their racism would have no effect on my life whatsoever.

    Do you write articles about standing up to middle eastern countries? Cause they hate us.

  • Gooner79

    Ronnie, I would be staggered if you can find any examples of what you’ve just accused Le Grove of.

    Inciting murder against Wenger? Please. Do you realise how delusional you sound?

    If this racism is so obvious, why can’t you demonstrate it?

    You also haven’t responded to my earlier comment? I’m still seeing your users abusing people they don’t even know.

    Shouldn’t you silence the posters using words like retard? Isn’t that insulting to the thousands of people dealing with mental retardation in every day life? Or are personal insults, threats of GBH and false accusations ok if they come from this site?

    Practice what you preach my friend.

  • Ronnie Brown

    Lol see what I mean about keep bringing it up and Le Grove accuse Untold of being obessed with them, was over but now I’ve just seen two more comments lol.

    Ok, well, no I do not live by the philosphy of ignoring racial abuse, and it isn’t about making my life more easier, it’s voicing a different opinion as I comlpetly disagree with the comments allowed there. Anyone being racist to anyone effects humanity.

    And I’m against any form of racism to anyone.

  • Ronnie Brown

    Well I have examples and examples have been posted so prepare to be staggered, facts are not delusional, these are things WE HAVE SEEN ON THE SITE AND HAVE COPIES PASTED OF.

    Lol I have demonstrated it, I have posted several times with a * inbetween the words what was posted, I posted the entire quote but it was edited as he didn’t want to repeat the racism, which was understanable as it was highly offensive. But there is a shed load of it, I have said and others have also said what they have read and seen.

    Lol my users? I don’t run this blog, I posted an article with my opinion. And for the record I don’t condone any violence towards Le Grove or anybody, but I will not tolerate racism and incitements of violence anywhere without passing comment.

  • Gooner79

    So Ronnie, you don’t have any evidence of the racism or the incitment of violence?

    That’s all I needed to know.

    I could say Dennis Bergkamp is actually Austrailian, but if I can’t prove it, it’s a fantasy comment.

    Just like your post I’m afraid.

    I can’t tolerate accusations without foundation. Untold Arsenal shouldn’t either.

  • Ronnie Brown

    “1. Max Tobias says:
    September 5, 2010 at 10:08
    Wenger is a moron who should be murdered and strung up from the stadium. What has he ever done for us? I wish we could go back to the days of rampant success before this skinflint charlatan darkened our doors.”

    “SHOULD BE MURDERED AND STRUNG UP FROM THE STADIUM”

    One of MANY…. also it’s a regular occurance there… AND Le Grove that they do not tolerate abuse…. well they do….

  • Ronnie Brown

    1. Jaguar reloaded says:
    September 5, 2010 at 09:25
    If City finish above us,the Togolese cunt,would have something to laugh and it would warrant Wenger to be stoned.

    “WARRANT WENGER TO BE STONED.”

  • Ronnie Brown

    This “joke” was also posted several times, it is not funny, it uses a HIGHLY offensive racial word, nothing done about it. I have edited the word with a * as the editor didn’t want it printed.

    “1. A muslim suicide bomber blows himself up.. When he wakes he sees some stairs so starts to climb them.
    When he comes to a man with a white beard he asks “Are you Mohammed?”. “No i’m St Peter” replies the man “Mohammed is higher up”. “Wow!” thinks the muslim and carries on up the stairs.
    He comes across another man and again asks “Are you Mohammed?” “No, i’m Jesus, Mohammed is higher up” “Wow!” thinks the muslim, “Our prophet is higher up than Jesus!”
    He gets to the top and finds an old man sat on a throne. “Are you Mohammed?” he asks, “No, I’m God, you look tired boy would you like a cup of tea?” says God. “Yes please” says the muslim, so God clicks his fingers and shouts…
    “Oi! Mohammed you little pa*i cunt! Get that fucking kettle on!”

  • Ronnie Brown

    Oh also in that same post “Togoles cu*t”

    And as I said this is a REGULAR occurance, I have many many exampls, and if pushed could find 100’s if I had the time.

  • kenny smith

    Ronnie,

    I do not know about Le Grove being obsessed with you as i do not post there. I read it as i read almost every other Arsenal blog and do not post… due to time constraints.

    If the picture at the top of the page is you then you might be able to remember, with regards to racial abuse, what England was like back in the early 80’s. The cops were even at it!

    I would say in the last 30 years the country has progressed massively in terms of racial tolerance.

    But racism exists all over the world. Racism exists in Arsenal fans, Tottenham fans, Chelsea fans, Man Utd fans, Wolves fans, Kiddiminster fans….. It exists in Israel, Afgahnastan, Russia, China, Iraq, Africa, America….. i could name every country in the world.

    You can not expect everyone to get on. If they did we would have world piece.

    I agree racist abuse is not nice but you can not expect everyone to like each other.

    Would you preach to an Iraqi woman, who watched the british March into her country (during an illegal war) and kill her husband, not to hate the British?

  • Ronnie Brown

    Who’s debating if racism exists? No-one, we know it exists, the point was it’s not right, by not moderating it and it happening frequently it is making it seem acceptable. No-one said everyone to get on, but racial insults and highly offensive terms are not accepatble.

    I’ve made my position on racism extremely clear, I am against all forms of it and believe in complete equality.

  • Ronnie Brown

    And even more so on a supposed Arsenal site that whether we like it or not does partly represent Arsenal fans, I don’t want people to think we are all like that, that’s why a different opinion was needed, now some people who have seen this know we do not all condone casually degrading people by their race.

  • kenny smith

    But Ronnie if Le Grove wants to condone racist abuse that is up to them. If you feel strongly about it then email the people who write it or comment in the comment section. Do not write your own article condemning them because you are in actual fact insighting people to hate that site, which is no better than racism itself.

    Le Grove does not represent 100% of Arsenal fans and no one thinks it does. I do not know where you get the idea that one blog is representative of every arsenal fan out there.

    You say that no one is asking everyone to get on but racial insults and offensive terms are not acceptable.

    There you have basically said its ok to be racist just as long as you dont say anything out loud.

    And you have dodged my question about the Iraqi woman and whether you would tell her, her racism is unjustified.

  • Ronnie Brown

    It’s up to them but it’s wrong and it’s my free speech to express my view that it’s wrong. Please do not tell me what to do, I will do as I see fit and I saw fit to make a comment on he nasty things I saw that were ignored. Lol they way you twisted that last bit is completly ridiculous, I haven’t incited people to hate them, I have expressed my disgust at some of the comments there, I have NEVER said they should be murdered or racially insulted them.

    You either don’t read properly or your deliberatly twisting things, did you not see the word PARTLY, of course they PARTLY do, as they are a major and popular Arsenal blog.

    Yes, we are not saying everyone has to be incredibly friendly with eachothher, but there’s a HUGE differnece between that and racially insulting people with evil terms. Mm the next point is kind of weird… if you’ve read what I’ve said throughout this whole discussion you’d know I would never say it’s ok to be racist, but to use racial terms that offend people is not right and to incite violence upon the manager is not right and illegal.

    I’m not gonna answer every single question because I have made my statements on racism ABUNDANTLY clear, I am completely against any form on anyone.

    You are clearly just trying to twist everything I’m saying, it’s actually quite ridiculous…..

    I expressed an opinion regarding something…… are you saying I can’t have or do that? Well I can and I will, live with it and move on.

  • Finsbury

    To those deluded Indians who believe that an ‘insult’ that begins with P has no reference to them, or that they know how to ‘man up’ I have one simple question:

    There are more, many more youths from S.Asia living in the UK, then there are from the West Indies. The demographics are easily available. But there are hardly any Asian footballers in the football league. Why not?

    Some say, ‘it’s their fault’, or that they are ‘too small’, people from S.Asia.

    Although, I note, that never seemed to be a problem for the likes of Ikram Butt (played Rugby for England), Wasim Akram ( including a little coaching for Freddie Flintoff), or MS ‘I drink a glass of buffalo milk every day’ Dhoni.
    Twenty five/thirty years ago many coaches used to stay,
    “They can run fast, but they’ve got no skill”, regarding young Brit’s from the W.I. (er…erm…Pele? Brazil ’71?)

    I do not think that breed of coaches have much success in the game today.
    Aragones? Spain won in the Euro’s in spite of that buffoon. Everybody could see that. He was indulged by all, including Puyol’s afro.

    The groaners out there like to state, as if it’s obvious, that in a league of ‘shitkickers’, you need some ‘shitkickers’. What could they mean? I wonder…

    That logic, sounds tired and a little familiar to me, and equally redundant. Blackburn can’t fill their smallish stadium for a big teams visit. In spite of the claims to the contrary, TNHOF, have not had problems selling tickets, like, say, Liverpool FC or ManIOU.

    Finally, to destroy the ‘shitkicker’/HG/english’ theory, let us look at our near neigbours, the Tiny Tott’s.
    After much investment in Who Knows What, their squad has been reinforced by the following AFC rejects for the upcoming campaign, as their ‘Engerlish spine’ is obviously crap. RVDV (maybe not an obvious reject, but a minor one), Palacios (OK, he was signed last season) and of course, Gallas. I’ve always liked Defoe, but he’s not as good as RVP! Lennon is 23, and would never have broken into the Inv. squad, so AFC were not right for him at the time, but do not expect a groaner to comprehend things like player development.

    Not everything about the transition to the new stadium has been perfect, mistakes are obvious to all, but nothing that can’t be rectified. The clock looks nice, looking forward to more.

    The presumption that the best run club in the UK has taken the club ‘away from the fans’ in light of the recent AST launch, etc. etc. etc. is nothing more then malicious and misleading propaganda.

    When Mohandas Gandhi came to London to fight for the emancipation of all South Asians, he did not choose to stay with Prince Philllip’s father in law.
    This man, who possibly made some errors during The Great War (not as bad as his hosts above), chose to stay in an orphanage in London’s East End. Run by Muriel Lester, a peace activist.

  • Finsbury

    correction

    FC RBS > Liverpool FC

  • Gooner79

    Ronnie, calling someone a Togolese cunt is not racist. Is he Togolese? Yes. Is he a cunt? Yes. What’s racist about that?

    All I can see is a lot of comments taken out of context. Shame on you for reacting in such a silly way.

    The Jaguar comment doesn’t appear to be there and the joke you’ve made reference to appears to have had the word ‘Paki’ added in by yourself? That’s a bit distasteful isn’t it?

    Basically, what you’ve done is take isolated incidence and you’ve tarred the whole site with them. That’s pretty poor of you. I could say this website is encouraging violence against Le Grove with the nasty comment from earlier. I COULD do that, but I won’t becuase that would be childish.

    They’ve had 600k comments in 4 years, there are always going to be a few rotten comments. If they were racist and hateful, they wouldn’t have the following they do.

    You should take off the green tinted spectacles you wear when you read their site and perhaps learn from lessons from what they do.

  • Ronnie Brown

    That is offensive yes because his race has nothing to do with the fact someone feels he is a cunt. I’m not an Adeybour fan but I would never call him that.

    Your talking absoloute and utter nonsense, you really are, it’s not out of context, it’s completed in context.

    Lol are you actually serious? I did not had that word there by myself, it was there posted, are you getting that desperate you are resorting to straight up lies now? Wow….

    Again, I suggest you actually read the comments, it is not an isolated incident, that is the whole point.

    Lol I actually find your comment so ridiculous it’s slightly humourous, I am stunned by the lengths you’ve gone to to defend Le Grove, actually resorting to complete straight up lies instead of the usual ridiculous twisting….

  • Ronnie Brown

    *completly

  • kenny smith

    Its you right to your free speech but you are using free speech to speak out against Le Grove letting their viewers have their free speech. So how can you justify that?

    Yes you have incited people to hate them. You have published an article calling them racist. You have slandered their name and people will be influenced by you so that is exactly what you have done.

    You do not seem to realise that doing something like this that people can interpret your words differently. Thats why, in my opinion, you should not post articles on the internet calling people racist. That makes people mad and people who like your site will believe what you say and hate Le Grove.

    You do not have to be racist or murder someone to hate them. Do not know where your getting that from.

    I may be twisting things but that is a common part or journalism is it not. Most newspapers for example did not get to where they are today without twisting a few things. And that is also a danger of trying to be your own journalist. If you write something it is open to how every person interpret’s it and you should have known that before you go start calling anyone under the sun racist.

    You said that no one is denying racism exists but insults etc are unacceptable. Which is just like saying its ok as long as you dont insult someone.

    In my opinion you need to be very careful of what you say regarding such a controversial subject because you were not very careful when you wrote this

  • Ronnie Brown

    What I’m gonna do when I can is make ONE post stating my point, the comments that have been made etc, then the viewers can judge who is in the wrong and right for themselves.

    But the jist of it is, some people are saying it’s ok to use racial insults against players and use offensive racist terms like “pak*” and to call for violent attacks against the manager and we are saying that’s not. I can’t believe I am in 2010 arguing this point……

  • Ronnie Brown

    Ok this is how I justify that, my free speech is not racist or violent as is some of the posts regularly permitted there.

    I never said for anyone to hate them, I have written an article saying some of the comments on there site is wrong.

    I was actually very careful when I wrote this, everything I said was backed up by quotable facts before I submitted the article, I have saved posts directly copied from the site incase anybody tried to delete or edit it afterwards.

  • Dick (aka Willy)

    RONNIE BROWN–

    hello, there. And thank you for your reply to my post.

    Fair enough, if it was you who wrote the article, then I shouldn’t have made those comments about Tony (in relation to the article) and I retract them. However, I still find the fact his picture is on the site and next to all his posts (the only Arsenal blog I know of that does this — even Myles Palmer, ego-maniac, doesn’t have a picture of himself on his site) AND the quote by himself effectively about himself and his blog to be just a little self-serving.

    Anyway, that isn’t the primary issue here, is it? Let’s get back to the root of your post — the alleged racism on Le Grove:

    Let me start my reply by stating I am a multi-cultured individual of mixed parentage (French mother, Middle-Eastern father, born and bred mostly in England).

    I agree that all racism, no matter how infinitesimal or expansive should not be tolerated, under any circumstances. However, blaming Le Grove directly for the actions of a minority is the exact same suggestive, generalist, one-size-fits-all thought-process adopted by racists. You cannot deny that.

    Fair enough, you want those bloggers blocked and deleted. Yet ‘Gooner79’ in his post at 11:39 highlighted a comment on this blog that incited violence and made threats against Pedro of Le Grove.

    16 hours after being posted, it was still on here.

    Does that mean that for those 16 hours you were effectively harboring and encouraging violence??

    If a flurry of 100 or so people suddenly started posting racist jokes on this blog, at such a rate quicker than you were able to delete them, would that make this blog racist??

    Le Grove – as far as I know – is a blog run by two fans, Geoff and Pedro, and does not have the resources to employ somebody full-time with the sole responsibility of sitting down and sifting through EVERY post.

    When comments do come to the attention of Geoff and Pedro, they are promptly CENSORED. If you’ve looked through “countless” posts, surely you would have also seen this?

    Bloggers who persistently post nasty things have their user names and IP’s stored under IN MODERATION.

    Those who still persist are BANNED completely.

    Yet your ill-informed rundown of Le Grove makes it sound as if the place is some right-wing free-for-all where anybody and everybody says what they want, and the more racist it gets the more people cheer and shoot their rifles in the air.

    That is nonsense.

    YES, there is the odd idiot who posts the odd utterly OTT comment (and they are always derided by the larger Le Grove community, I hasten to add), but does it not occur to you that the reason your blog is supposedly so ‘squeaky clean’ is due to the lower poster numbers??

    Le Grove has anything up to 1,000 posters a day!! How do you possibly expect ALL of those comments to be read and monitored??

    It’s not Geoff and Pedro’s fault that the blog is so successful that demand brings the odd idiot with it.

    You mentioned a few examples and said you could mention more.

    But look at it like this: even if you found 5 racist or threatening comments per blog post (therefore usually within a 24-hr period) from ‘the idiots’ on Le Grove, that would mean 5 out of almost 1,000. That’s less than 0.5%.

    Go and stand in the street in any city, listen to 1,000 conversations and compare the number of derisory comments or racial slurs you hear based on the above equation.

    I was stood in my local Sainsbury’s the other day only to hear an Asian guy refer to another man as a “stupid fucking honky”. I don’t agree with it, but it doesn’t mean I now refuse to go into Sainsbury’s and suddenly defect to Tesco’s due to a matter that – ultimately – was beyond their control.

    I really think you’re making a huge mountain out of a mole-hill, throwing around potentially slanderous remarks about a popular Arsenal blog based on THEIR POSTERS!

    That, by any standard of journalism, is vindicative and reeks to me of ‘vendetta’.

    Well done to you for standing up for your beliefs and having the balls to speak your mind. But seriously, there are more worthy causes out there where your passion for eliminating racism could be better served.

    I think you owe Le Grove an apology.

    At the very least you owe them a blog retrospectively analyzing your arguments and ammending them to reflect a MINORITY which (unfortunately in today’s world) inevitably exist on a blog with that many visitors.

    I look forward to seeing what revisions – if any – you choose to make.

  • Ronnie Brown

    There is a misinterpretation there about what I’m actually saying, please read it closer, I didn’t say Le Grove is to blame for all it’s comments of it’s users, what I said and have said so many times is Le Grove claim to not tolerate abuse yet they REGULARLY allow racist abuse and incitements of violence, and they also somtimes moderate reasonable posts yet they allow the clear racism on the site on a consistant basis. There is AMPLE evidence of this.

    Well in regards to the comment here, one could say it was provoked because of the racism there but however I would not say that and if it was my site I would of deleted that particular comment, however, the point is on Le Grove they REGULARLY allow this to happen and much much worse, you can’t complain about the Pedro comment then defend Le Grove posters talking of murdering Arsene Wenger.

    The blog has been on there between 3-4 days, also as I’ve said countless times now it is a REGULAR occurance,I clearly said in the orginal article I am a long time reader of Le Grove,I am not someone who has just seen the site once and made a snap view, this is after months of viewing, I have felt this before but now had to speak up as it’s becoming more and more frequent and is being allowed.

    No you see, this is incorrect, there is a mass amount of racism of incitement of violence on the site right now, I have the posts. And the bit about Le Grove you said there about peristant nasty things get put in moderation is COMPLETLY FALSE, Jaguar Reloaded posts nasty things in practically every post yet he is a regular poster there, he is always allowed to continue, your talking to me as if I have not witnessed what goes on there on a daily basis and like I can be manipulated but that’s not the case, I have been and seen exactly what goes on there for a number of YEARS.

    Well come on, some of the posts I posted were extremely excessive, so many assualts have been threated upon Wenger and even murder and everyone knows how some of the people change names etc too. It’s not the odd idiot, it’s plenty, though there are some decent posters too.

    There is absloutly no way I will be making any sort of apoligy to Le Grove, they infact owe me an apoliogy for the offensive remarks I had to repeatedly witness of their website, however I do not require one, the way to move foward would be for them to stop allowing the excessive things that cross the line to continue.

  • Ronnie Brown

    They say they IMMIEDIATELY delete abuse on their about section, if that’s not true they should remove that pronouncement/

  • arsenal4ever

    isnt it calumny what you are doing to legrove? beware from the police!!!

  • Dick (aka Willy)

    What about the comment that was on here for 16 hours, Ronnie??

    Was that ‘deleted immediately’??

  • Ronnie Brown

    As far as I’m aware Untold don’t have that in there about section, also theres stuff on Le Grove for weeks which is more than 16 hours, and also the level of things on Le Grove is extremely more freqent and more servere.

    That other comment is so stupid I won’t even bother replying.

  • Ronnie Brown

    Not yours Dick, the other guy.

  • Ronnie Brown

    Actually go on I’ll reply lol.. well no because it’s true and can prove it.

  • Ronnie Brown

    I really would suggest people read before the post, I’ve said so many times I’ve got evidence to back up every claim, I’ve posted some but have A LOT more.

  • Ronnie Brown

    *they

  • Ronnie Brown

    Also here’s a quick analysis of the original post and it’s points.

    1: I do not mind critsism of Arsene or Arsenal on Le Grove or anywhere, however ABUSE that Arsene gets is excessive and I feel it’s a disgrace to Arsenal fans, calling for someones murder cause you don’t agree with them is not right.

    2: Free speech is preached yet they sometimes moderate reasonable points while allowing excessive ones to remain.

    3: I feel that blatant racism being posted on a site using words like “paki” and calling people “African cunts” is unacceptable and that to bring up someones race when insulting them is wrong.

    4: What is stated on their about section is not practiced as abuse is not immediately removed.

    5: The incitement of violence allowed is getting out of hand and maybe something should be considered done to stop this.

    6: The so called joke that called the Muslim prophet a “paki cunt” is offensive on religious ground.

    7: They manipulate and contradict.

    All opinions and facts, if I must actually come back with evidence to each point I will.

  • Gooner79

    Ronnie, I think you’ve been shown up a bit by Dick.

    So much so that you’re now asking a blog that takes no money from advertisers to amend their rules of engagement section like they’re a professional organisation.

    This feels like you are trying to control them using racism as you whipping stick?

    You have, for some reason decided to save/create a group of isolated comments, tar the site as racist and not give any context.

    Shouldn’t you say that you’ve found x amount of racist comments over a set period of days amongst x total comments?

    Yes, you should have. If you did though, like Dick said, you wouldn’t have impressive figures would you?

    You’ve found a distasteful joke, a comment I can’t find and you’ve turned the country of Togo into a race. Pretty weak stuff considering the severity of your article.

    Your ignorance is mind blowing.

  • truegooner

    Ronnie you have obviously missed the posts where one total numpty was comparing Arsene Wenger to Hitler and even said that Wenger was more of a dictator than Hitler, the same guy also compared Wenger to Mugabe, none of the posts were censored , you can have an opinion on the blog as long as its the same as theirs, many of their original posters have left and now post on various other sites such as arsenal,arsenal where you really can have an opinion

  • kenny smith

    Ronnie

    What quotable facts are you talking about? For all anyone knows you could of just pressed shift 2 and made them up…. you dont have any evidence.

    Free speech over at the other blog may be violent or racist but its still free speech is it not? If it is illegal to say the things they do is that your axe to grind? You may feel its wrong to say those things but there are ways to deal with things.

    I am not telling you what to do but broadcasting it over the internet for the whole world to see is the wrong way to do it. You will come out of this alot worse off than Le Grove will.

    There is nothing stopping me from writing my own blog now and calling you a Peadophile and making up qoutes from supposed people that know you and broadcasting it over the net for the whole world to see. Obviously i am not going to do that but be careful whos reputation you try to tarnish.

  • kenny smith

    Gooner 79 that is a cracking comment and a point ive been trying to make all day. Your better with words than i am.

  • Gooner79

    Ronnie, you do love to waffle don’t you? I swear you just repeat yourself over and over again.

    Mind you, if I didn’t have much of a point, I’d probably do that.

    I’ve never seen the term paki or african cunt used on the site? Even if you could find one or two examples, what would it matter, you could prove an exception, not a rule.

    Big deal, it must be difficult managing a 24-7 forum. You can’t even manage 150 comments over here without a violent threat creeping on!

    That’s me done for the day. You owe the boys at Le Grove a grovelling apology becuase you have no case or right to post such garbage.

    Tony should be ashamed as well. He didn’t write it, but going through your archives, he clearly encourages it. There must be 10 articles about LG and numourous references (One two days ago even). Very sad for a man of his experience.

    Good evening.

  • Ronnie Brown

    There are 100’s of comments that are unacceptable there. And as usual you are talking nonsense, they are THEIR OWN rules that they put up and they are not carrying them out.

    I’m not trying to control them whatsoever, I am saying I would advise they moderate there site to exclude excessive comments of racism and incitement of violence when they occur, what they do is their decsion at the end of the day, and what I do is mine, that’s why me voicing MY opinion is perfectly fine. I thought Le Grove was the blog where you can have an opinion? So how come I can’t have an opinion now?

    I would guess there have been 1000’s of either incitement of violent conduct comments of racial comments on Le Grove since it started, probably 100’s just from Jaguar, he’s on there all the time so I wouldn’t doubt it.

    If you find it acceptable to use to word “paki” on a Arsenal website in any context then that’s your own views, if you find incitements of murder and violenec against a manager you don’t agree with acceptable again that says a lot about your personal opinions.

    I don’t see why your continuing to post….. I’ve made my position extremely clear, you’ve made yours… that should be the end of it, discussion would of been over if it wasn’t carried on again and again.

  • Ronnie Brown

    Lol what a ridiculous post from Kenny…

    The posts are still on the site, I have dates and times, and other posters who have seen the same things.

    No broadcasting it is exactly the right way to deal with it in my opinion, it’s lets people know that there is opposition to it, it isn’t everyone that condones that.

    The pedo thing is so ridiculous it’s unbelievable and a completly differnt thing. I do not have to be careful of anything, I will say absoloutly what I like.

  • kenny smith

    Ronnie,

    you 5 points answered.

    1, When people call for wengers murder they are not speaking figuratively. Its a way of venting frustration. I havent really got a problem with your opposition of this. Just lighten up a bit and dont take it so seriously.

    2,3,4 You’ve no evidence of any of these points and trying to moderate a blog 24 hours a day is increadibly difficult. So is trawling through all the comments.

    5, Again its all not figurative lighten up.

    6, the mention of the word jesus to a Muslim is offensive on religeous grounds. Got to be a line we draw under what is and what isnt offensive to a Muslim…

    7. Again no evidence.

  • chippy

    Le Grove is written and read by inbreds
    September 5th, 2010 at 10:26 pm

    Oh Dear,Hypocrisy knows no bounds !!!

  • Pat

    Lol. This is nonsense. Please by the way, could you format the site Tony, I’ve always read it on the phone on my way home, and this being the first time I’ve got on it on PC, I have to say, the comment on the formatting on these sites is horrific.

    Apart from LG 😀

  • kenny smith

    Ronnie,

    But i could go and do that though cud i not? Write about you being a Paedo? It may be ridiculous but i could still do it could i not?

  • Ronnie Brown

    1: Unacceptable venting of frustration and PERSISTANT.

    2 3 4: I do have evidence of ALL of these things, you just like to repeat the lie enough so people may believe it.

    5: 1

    6: LMAO that is absoloutly ridiculous, are you now saying saying the word Jesus is as offensive to a muslim as calling the prophet mohammed a “paki cunt”, Jesus is regarded as a muslim prophet.

    7: Have evidence, you choose to ignore.

  • Dick (aka Willy)

    RONNIE–

    you just wrote this:

    “As far as I’m aware Untold don’t have that in there about section, also theres stuff on Le Grove for weeks which is more than 16 hours”

    How can you post ‘that’ blog about Le Grove, then follow it up with the above?

    Are you seriously now telling me that the issue is people saying they do something and then not doing it? Is that really the matter which you believe warrants such a strong reaction from you??

    Does that not then extend to Arsene Wenger? Telling us he will “make our signings early”, then not bother? Or telling us he will add “one more”, then channging his stance to “it’s dead”? Or telling us, “we will win at Old Trafford”?

    Please, tell me the difference? Because if you are able to raise such a fervent ire at people ‘not doing what they say’, then spare a thought for what provoked the readers at Le Grove to post the things they did.

    What’s the alternative? This site, where the ‘about’ section clearly states you effectively seek to actively INDOCTRINATE an opinion which is, and I quote…

    “covers Arsenal news and related stories that don’t appear elsewhere, always with a positive pro-Wenger pro-sustainability approach”

    Let’s analyze that statement, shall we?

    “Stories that don’t appear anywhere else”

    Really? Quite a bold statement of exclusivity, wouldn’t you say?

    Verdict: Hypocrisy

    Then the second part:

    “…always with a pro-Wenger, pro-sustainability approach”

    What you are in actual fact saying there is, ‘no matter what Wenger does, no matter how he acts, no matter how we play, no matter if it turns out Arsene is a closet serial killer, we are going to write ALL our articles in his favour’.

    What utter, pathetic idolatry.

    And you say that people on Le Grove are NEGATIVE for referring to the “AKB” or calling people “sheep”?

    What do you expect?!

    Furthermore, you go to such lengths in voicing your opinions so strongly and ardently, yet in regards to any disclaimers Untold Arsenal carry, say:

    “As far as I’m aware…”

    What sort of statement is that??! You’re telling me that you didn’t even BOTHER to check the ENTIRE content of this site before committing to hosting your views on it??

    And what overall message are you sending out with such a comment?? That “it’s okay” for Untold Arsenal to allow threatening comments to fester for 16 hours because “we don’t claim otherwise”. In that case, would it be okay for Le Grove to LET people write those kind of comments, so long as they take down their disclaimer??

    What you started out as a ‘dignified argument’ regarding racism has now descended into a petty farce about who carries what disclaimer on their website.

    Well and truly PATHETIC.

  • Ronnie Brown

    You could but you’d have NO proof, I have proof, that’s the difference.

  • kenny smith

    And you have just admitted to inciting hatred again. bad times

  • Ronnie Brown

    Twisting and manipulation again which is really typical,I clearly said that I don’t condone any threats towards anybody.

    I will make a post later outling the truth and then everybody will be able to see for themselves and make their own judgement.

  • kenny smith

    But all i would need to do is push shift 2 and write something because that is all you’ve done.

    Even if i have no proof people are still influenced by what is written… Doesnt matter that much about proof sometimes but how influencial the person saying it is..

    Besides proof. No one could prove O.J. Simpson murdered his wife but everyone still thinks he did.

  • kenny smith

    What would be the point in that?

    It will just cause you more an more hassle. This isnt doing you any favours.

    You dont condone threats towards anyone?

    Have you never threatened or insulted anyone?

  • Gooner79

    You would ‘guess’ that there are thousands?

    Says it all really.

    I can’t find that Paki reference and I can’t find that Jaguar comment? Making up evidence, taking comments in their literal sense and condoning violence on this site becuase the disclaimer doesn’t state otherwise.

    Terrible hypocrisy and double standards.

  • Gooner79

    I also find it incredible that you’re complaining that people are twisting your words.

    Your whole post seems to be based on twisting words or making them up.

  • Finsbury

    So no reply to my comment addressed to the Indians who declare that they have great knowledge of the UKs football culture then. That’s a shame. I wonder…I guess some of the WUMS above, er, speak for themselves.

    I’ll try again.

    “If there is no racism within the culture of English football, why aren’t there any S.Asian Footballers playing in the EPL?”

    It’s a simple question, with a simple answer.

  • Dark Prince

    @Finsbury- the simple answer – South Asian footballers aren’t good enough!! And its got nothing to do with racism!! If arsenal can sign Ryo Miyaichi or Wellington Silva or Frimpong or Eboue then Arsenal can sign anyone. Football is not a very popular sport among people here. The main sport here is Cricket. Only the current youth generation have knowledge about Football. And that why there isn’t any good football players booing from this country. So its nothing to do with Racism!!

  • Dark Prince

    Mistake..’not booing from here’, its ‘not coming from here’ my T9 dictionary on my cell failed on me 🙂

  • Finsbury

    So, all the kids of S.Asian descent who reside in the UK in greater numbers then immigrants from the WI, from Afghanistan to Sri Lanka are genetically incapable of playing football?

    Have you ever heard of Polo? The kind they used to play with peoples’ heads?

    Sorry Dark Prince, but you have written a paragraph that gives you no credibility at all.

  • Finsbury

    It’s also incredibly weird to state that Asian kids only play cricket and not football. A bit of a crude generalisation.

    Bengali second generation kids growing up in London’s East End in the ’80’s played cricket or football? Which cricket team were they trying to copy?

    Clearly, you have no knowledge upon the subject upon which you have commented.

  • Finsbury

    To conclude, obviously there will be a S.Asian footballer playing in the EPL soon. There have been a few on the fringes.

    But it has taken a while.

    Regis made his breakthrough a long long time ago.

  • Gooner79

    Finsbury, whisper it, but there might not be any S.Asians good enough!

    A crude generalisation that Asian’s prefer cricket? Who are you kidding! That’s not a generalisation, that is a fact!

    It’s crude to suggest that football clubs all over the world are shunning talented south asians because they are racist.

    Mind you, it appears to be typical of this site in general. Looking for conspiracies where none lie.

  • Chippy

    Michael Chopras had a very decent carear and has played in the EPL- I think, and I’m pretty sure his father is Indian,

  • Finsbury

    I wrote in reference to the children of migrants to the UK.
    That is quite clear from my above comment.

    As is your sentence:

    “Not good enough”.

    I don’t know many people who grew up in London who put cricket ahead of football, whatever their background.

    Any statement that implies that is the case, is a lie, based upon a crude generalisation.

    Yes, people from the sub-continent love their cricket. But I am referring to people within the UK. It’s not hard to spot the difference.
    Many people in the UK love both sports. I believe Graham Thorpe was almost a pro-footballer.

  • Dark Prince

    Finsbury- What you have written now just shows that you dont know much about South Asians!! Here even among the youth, only those stayin in metro cities and that also only about 1% kno about football clubs.
    And just ask those S.asian immigrants in U.K about sports in India. They haven’t gone to U.K to play football. So i think you should check whether ur facts are credible or not.

  • Finsbury

    Yup Chippy,

    & Rehman for Fulham, who was almost there.

    It’ll be a nice thing when it happens.
    It’s taken too long for a HG ‘Indian’ to break through.
    I personally would not say ‘it’s because of racism’, but it is a big factor, we’d be lying if we did not accept that to be true.

  • Dark Prince

    And its not a crude generalisation. You dont even kno the state of football clubs in india. And if you look at the quality of players, u’ll too believe that none of them deserve to be even in Arsenal’s reserve team.

    And regarding child immigrants, i’ll just say that indian parents dont want their children to be in sports that they dont kno about. Indian parents are quite traditional in their thinking. They will never agree with their children opting for football as their earning measure and thats why we dont see Indian footballers in the premier league. Not because of Racism!!

  • Finsbury

    I can’t believe some WUM’s are carrying on as if I’m talking about kids who grew up in the sub-continent. Ridiculous.

    Please, learn to read.

  • Chippy

    Gooner79,
    Don’t miss out the part about anyone wanting more English players in the Arsenal first team -As they are of course racist I’d love to see said poster explain that logic to the likes of Rocky RIP,Thomas,Davis,Wrighty etc If your first instinct when someone says English player is to assume they mean White then I’m afraid its you that’s got issues.

  • Dark Prince

    Finsbury- also one good example for u- have you heard of the game ‘kabbadi’?? Its one of India’s fav sports. Why isn’t any English Immigrants playin in it?? Your simple answer- they are not good enough!! Not racism!!

  • Chippy

    Finsbury,
    I thought that was the case – It is strange more haven’t broken through but I wouldn’t like to comment on the why’s and where’s as I really don’t know and wouldn’t want to generalise-Its defo interesting tho as we play 5 a side and there’s many good Asian teams in fact one hammered us last week 🙂

  • Dark Prince

    Finsbury- you clearly dont understand the culture of the sub-continent people, so its better u dont comment on things u dont kno. Let an Indian speak on the sub-continent rather than some BUM sittin on the other side of the world.

  • Ronnie Brown

    “iamgooner says:
    August 28, 2010 at 18:38

    EVEN BLACKPOOL BEAT WIGAN! 4-0!

    HA HA HAA SPURS YOU BUNCHA JEWISH CUNTS”

    Another post from Le Grove.

  • Ronnie Brown

    “iamgooner says:
    August 28, 2010 at 17:54

    YES! the foreskinless cunts lost!”

    Another.

  • Ronnie Brown

    And truegooner I did see the post comparing Wenger to Hitler, I mentioned that in the comments section already, and that was the kind of thing I meant in the orginal post, excessive abuse.

  • Finsbury

    Chippy,

    Money & Asian tradtions were/are a big factor, but it’s too much of a generalisation.
    Bend it like Beckham was a good & funny movie, but to be honest, we all know that boys are boys..

    There’s been some money invested around the place, the Bengali community in the East End have always been football mad. I’ve got a few friends who are coaching kids in London and their teams are doing well. (their U15’s beat the tiny totts! But don’t tell Dark Prince…he might blow a fuse!)

    There have been ‘barriers’, no doubt about it, but to my mind the biggest problem is the fact that there are no coaches! Which has been a problem for football in general, ignored by our well fed football plundits.
    Also, most of the Bengali kids I used to play with in F.Park were all little Cesc’s, they preferred in those days what could be described as the ‘continental game’, which is now more widely accepted, what with Carlo’s Chav$ and the rest? (Also, poverty and demographics have some part to play in these things).

    AFC have helped introduced better coaching standards, by setting up an academy when none were around, there are still none around, and it’s one reason our club is to be admired.

    Nice to have a conversation about Football Chippy!
    I would emphasise, no one disputes the allure of HG players whether they are green yellow or pink, it’s just natural. But there some twisted Trolls out there.

    From within the stadium, the composition of the AFC fan-base is testament to the greatness of it’s fans. It’s the only club for me 🙂

    Hopefully, there’ll be some deflation in Football and prices will drop for tickets, but AFC is so well run, it might be a while for us. A bit of a tangent there, but I mean to emphasise the importance of children and teenagers going to matches, whatever their background.

  • Dark Prince

    A bengali community??? Hahahahaha…thats so ridiculous!!!! just ask your bengali friends of the state of football in their country. Just ask them how many outside their community knows about football clubs in india or england. They’ll give u a proper answer on this.

    Some people will just blame Racism for everything!! I wonder why we have so less Indians in the NBA??? Oh yea i kno, its Racism!! I wonder why we have so less English in Bollywood??? Yes again, its Racism!!

    Finsbury- i think someone has made a racist attack on u and hence ur blaming racism for everything. But if you look at EPL we have a good mix of many countries. And that means that Racism is not involved in EPL.

  • Finsbury

    Dark Prince.

    Why would a Second generation Benglai-British kid, who has grown up in the UK, and is entirely British (but not English) care about he state of Bengali cricket (which was non-existent twenty years ago) ot Bengali Football, which is non-existant?

    You are disputing the fact a British citizen of Bengali extraction could coach a successful youth team in an English league, with a mixture of chldren, but many of them being third generation Bengali’s.

    I’ll leave the reader to interpret what you are trying to say.

    I don’t know what your problem is, but you are embarrassing yourself.
    Which is an appropriate place to leave this thread, all things considered.

    End of line.

  • Finsbury

    * Bengali-British

  • Finsbury

    “They’re not good enough”

    ROFL.

    Priceless.

  • Dark Prince

    Finsbury- So what you are saying is that Bengali-British is a Racist!! But not everyone is a racist. Especially not from the EPL bcoz at that level only talent matters. Passports or being half bengali doesn’t matter. If someone deserves to be in the top league, then he will be there on the virtue of his talent and not race!!

  • Dark Prince

    Yeah they are not good enough!! ROFL!! 🙂

  • Finsbury

    British-Asian is an accepted term in the UK.

    Like being Scottish in London. British, but not English.
    Maybe, in a generation or two, terms may change. Obviously, any British-Asian who represents their nation with pride, will wear the three lions, in cricket or football, but that does not invalidate the use or relevance of the term British-Asian in those instances.

    Like I said, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, or you cannot read, or you are a poor WUM.

    Bye bye now.

  • DFG

    At the end of the day this subject has ran its course. It is a fact that many over reaction comments are posted on a regular basis on LeGrove. It is also a fact that it’s editors maintain double standards. Certain posters are binned immediately or suffer abuse because they attempt to post something positive. While others can say what they want and get away with it. Many comments are also made about it’s popularity and having over a 1,000 hits a day but in actuality there are only about 30 people on there posting about 50 times each a day. While I do believe that Ronny has over reacted some what to the racist theme, the majority of what he is saying is true. LeGrove in general is made up of some very strange people. I still believe it is nothing more than an anti Wenger site.

  • Dark Prince

    A BUM sitting on the other side of the world explaining an Indian what happens in India!! Hahaha…ROFL

  • Finsbury

    An Indian, deluded and arrogant who thinks he has a comprehension of the British Asian experience.

    You fell for the ‘not good enough’ trap I invited you into out in my first post.

    Well done, you get first prize Dark Prince. A big hat that says D on it.

    Proof, that when it comes to football, some people will always spout the first piece of ignorant bile that pops into their head.

  • Finsbury

    Thank you, & good night.

  • Finsbury

    And to clarify my meaning, lost in the bleating above, for others who can read:

    Yes racism has been a problem, but has been exarcbated by a very poor level of coaching.

    Coaching our kids is an ongoing theme of Tony’s site.

    I read the other day that Theo Walcott only started to play football at 14?
    He had the same youth coach as Gareth Bale?

    That is not a coincidence.

    “Not good enough”

    = Pure ignorence.

  • Dark Prince

    Lol ur in such a hurry to run away. Didn’t knew you are so scared but its ok. British Indian or normal Indian, values and traditions of an Indian dont change from place to place. So ur statements are backfiring…hahahaha ROFL!! Now u can hav ur gudnite!!

    ‘I kno a Bengali Community’ Hahahahaa

  • Dark Prince

    For everyone- pls stay away from people who are Racist. Say no to Racism. And dont think that every problem in the world is because of Racism. Dont get tangled in this Rated ‘R’ word.

  • Finsbury

    I am ‘British Asian’.
    Another commentator picked up on that quite easily.

    Hope you enjoy the hat, D.
    By the time you think of another WUM (you’ve been plugging that one for a few hours), I will be gone, but you were very funny.
    Thanks.

    Night.

  • Gooner79

    30 people write 50 comments each? Sounds like another one of those made up facts that are so prominent on here.

    Same as the ‘I was kicked off for being too positive.’

    I’ve only ever seen people kicked off for being rude and abusive.

    That’s an incredibly ignorant comment to make.

  • Dark Prince

    From indians to the sub-continent, from the subcontinent to the south asians, from the south asians to the asians, from the asians to the british asians….wow!! Dont u think ur changing it too fast!! Now wat next? British asian to british…and then u’ll say that you were talkin about the britishers the whole time… Lol!! Ur gettin totally insulted and makin a mockery of urself on Untold Arsenal!! Keep it up dude!!
    ‘I am British Asian’ hahahaha ROFL

  • Dark Prince

    As i was sayin people, pls stay away from Racist BUMS.

  • walter

    Gooner 79, I have been kicked of Le Grove because I said:
    “If all fans would be like some of you on here and I would be Cesc I would leave Arsenal.”

    Then Geoff changed my comment and added a sentence. I then got burried under abuse and at first I didn’t know why. Then I read my post again and noticed the changing.

    I then asked them who had changed my comment and then Geoff banned me, not without pointing at my not English background and telling me to shut it up.

    I still have the print screens of this on my computer as I wanted prove for this.
    After that my comments disapeared from the site but the insults pointed at me stayed on line. People even asked who I was and what I had said to get abused.

  • naijagunner

    congrats tony, your comments have gone up VERY SIGNIFICANTLY when you talked about ANOTHER BLOG

    You are no better if you label fellow fans ANTI-ARSENAL

    The author made rubbish of his article by calling the site vile and one to be avoided while claiming at the same time that he has been a reader of the vile site for a LONG time. Just why have you been reading? It makes little sense and its free publicity for le-grove (but at least it helps you get more hits)

  • Finsbury

    Dark Prince,

    Hello. Wow, you’ve called me racist. That deserves an answer.

    And you are insisting that ‘racism’ is not a problem, that players from an afro-carribean background in the UK did not have to deal with all kinds of abuses, to go through a process, to allow players to be accepted like they are today.
    What was one of the major reasons for Balotelli to move to Citeh from the European Champions?

    Your credibility has diminished with every comment.

    British Asian is a term we use on our census forms.
    I’m not sorry you have a problem with it, and that you seem to confuse Indian terms like Britishers, with British culture.

    As shown in the thread with a sane (and nice) commentator above, this is a complex issue, a process, and it’s not really a problem, but it has taken too long. Call it what you will, racist, natural, whatever, but it’s there, and it takes time to overcome.

    We don’t have enough coaches here.
    There’s no ambiguity about that.

    They have lots more coaches in Holland.
    If you were willing to discuss football, rather then throw insults, we could have looked at this dude:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aron_Winter

    The greatest footballer to emerge from the Indian Diaspora. In Holland.
    Coincidence? I think not. That doesn’t mean that they don’t have racisim in holland, it just means, that hey have coaches. A complex issue, obviously too complex for some.

    “Not good enough!” Oh dear…do you play any sports?
    Wait, don’t answer, you already did.
    Obviously, you can only play cricket!

  • DFG

    Gooner79. So please explain why people like Jaguar, Gambon, DDM, Ethan, to name but a few are allowed to continually post on that site. . Have you read some of their comments? Additionally read the comments from Geoff the site owner when he responds to someone that he does not agree with. The site statement that here you have an opinion and not get one is a joke all by itself. Also take 5 minutes to filter and count the repeat posters on there on any given day.

  • DFG

    Gooner79, In addition you talk about made up facts, where did I say I was kicked off of LeGrove, I did not did I. If you want facts, do your own research based on the information that I have provided for you and then judge for yourself.

  • Dark Prince

    @Finsbury- ok lets talk in footballin terms. When i said that Indians are not good enough for the EPL, I was talkin about players of the subcontinent. Also regarding British-Asians, there would be hardly any British-Asian who is playin in the EPL. Most of them dont make it bcoz they have been born in families where football is not a tradition. When it comes to the top league in English Football, talent is everything that matters. People dont see what race, colour, language u speak. They just see how good you play. And as i have said earlier, racism maybe an issue in lower leagues but not in EPL. I can also give you an example of South Korea- i know only of Park Ji Sung who has made it to the EPL. And its not bcoz of racism, its bcoz other players are not good enough. Also from India, Sunil Chettri is playing in MLS. And he’s a good footballer but i’ve seen him play and i believe that he isn’t good for the EPL. Also Baichung Bhutia, india’s most famous footballer, he too doesnt have enough talent to play in the top division in England, the EPL. Its no disrespect to him. Its just plain fact.

    I agree with you on the point about having good coaches in the lower leagues but what i’ve been saying is that the EPL doesn’t hav racism in it. Though it could be possible in the lower leagues.

    Also i’ve never accused you being a racist.

  • Forstar

    Great post.

  • Finsbury

    Dark Prince.

    You got your wires crossed somehow, because my question following on from the thread, was asking if people think racism is a problem in English Football. The game as it is in India was an irrelevance.

    In football people are too quick to make sweeping generalisations.
    It can be funny, or tedious. Sometimes you may hear people make sweeping and inappropriate generalisations about culture and background and tradition.

    For example, an issue that many football fans in England happily discuss: Why have British Asians come through into the professional game a little slower then expected. There are some there, so they obviously had some interest in the game as kids, regardless of what their parents got up to.
    Racism, communalism if you like, exists everywhere, it exists in Britain, but in my humble opinion it is not that big a deal in British Football which is progressive.

    But, to repeat, it is also nonsensical to state that family and cultural values are always a massive hindrance.

    I heard a youth coach from the FA state that players who ‘make it’ tend to come from areas, or regions. So children are lost to the game who don’t come from certain areas in the UK. Say no player will have emerged from a region/area X for a time, regardless of their background, relative to say Holland where they have better ‘cover’ of areas, and more facilities. Talent is obviously relevant. But the the notion that an individual has an innate, primal talent is b*ll*cks.
    Providing the environment for hard work over many years, and good coaching is always the most helpful thing for young players.

    There is not an infrastructure in place to support the dedicated army of volunteer football coaches in the UK. The climate and lifestyle in Northern Europe demands better infrastructure, for the simple reason that children no longer have as much time or space to play in, here and in Holland etc. as they once did. Regardless of their cultural backgrounds. It’s also worth remembering that English clubs have restricted zones within the UK, so unlike Barcelona who can pluck Pedro from Tenerife, AFC seem to have a much smaller pool of kids to pick from.

    An improved coaching infrastructure, is most probably the reason why more children from unsupportive backgrounds, whatever they might be, have made it in the Dutch football scene.
    Coaching in English football has regressed, or stagnated, relative to sister football scenes, and environments, and that has had an adverse effect upon English (+ Scottish = British) Football.
    It’s not a disaster but it is a fair criticism of the English FA.

    At the end of the day, people love to be judgmental about players in football, their backgrounds, their identity and personality. That can lead to dumb conversations, or light hearted and funny ones. But the only issue that really matters is the training that they have been given.

    It’s all about the coaching and training.

    And this ties in with the attitude of AFC towards developing good footballers and being a proper football club.
    The ‘youth project’ is already a success.
    Fabrice Muamba of Bolton, was a young player who was never going to oust the senior players in their hey day, left the club to develop/grow. His stats early on this season are impressive.
    There’ll be many more players emerge from AFC’s academy, who might need to leave AFC to get enough games, but will develop into good or brilliant PL players. This has happened in the past you could say, I think there are also examples of players who’ve re-signed for AFC, but I’m not sure about that. The point is, the standard of the ‘kids’ coming through seems to be very high, regardless of their backgrounds.
    Am looking forward to the CC game, a shame about Frimpong, but there are other players to look out for.
    Steve Bould & Liam Brady, they’ve done well!

    AW once said something along the lines of,
    “Give me an athlete, and I shall give you a footballer”.

    Couldn’t find the exact quote, but he has proven it, time after time.

  • Dark Prince

    @finsbury- you are right on the coaching point. But would like to disagree with the fact about Family Values and Traditions. I hope u have seen the movie, ‘Bend it like Beckham’. It exactly shows how British Indian parents influence the decisions on their child’s future. And its not a generalisation. Its a fact which will take much time to change. Though there has been a few players who tried their luck but yes, as u said, due to poor coaching they dont reach the level required. And watchin this more British Indian parents discourage their children to have football as a career.

  • Finsbury

    Children who turn away from sport for the reasons you give above will not be encouraged to play cricket (er…money, not a lot) or football or any other sport.

    So, I can’t understand your references to football careers, which are more lucrative then most. Makes no sense at all.

    It’s just as valid to say that today, in Britain, too many kids spend too long indoors playing computer games, and don’t play enough sport. That’s a vaguely true statement, but is also a misleading generalisation.

  • Dark Prince

    @finsbury- believe it or not. Being a cricket star is more acceptable for Indians than an EPL football star though an EPL star can easily earn 10 times more than a cricket star. Its just that Cricket is a popular sport in India and hence, being associated to popular sports of one’s homeland is more acceptable. Its a probematic scene for indians born in Britain. Bcoz their parents still consider cricket better than football though the child is more interested in football (bcoz football is the popular sport of britain).

    And regarding video games, its not misleading to say that video games have changed the physical activities of the youth. Many youth now prefer to play on game consoles than in actual. Though there are many who love to play in actual also. In this case, its not a generalisation, but its evolving slowly. Something which can become a concern in the future. As technology evolves, we’ll see the evolution of how people play games as well. But thats an entirely different topic. 🙂

  • Finsbury

    @ DarkPrince

    I agree with your thoughts on technology and games. GPS on players etc.

    Cricket is only recently a relatively wealthy sport, all counties in England survive off the ECB’s subsidies. Andy Caddick, a pleyr who had afew years at the highest level, used to spend his winters fixing the boundary fence, for pay, not pleasure.
    The IPL is only a few years old and therefore not relevant to coaching trends, or attitudes, over the last fifteen to thirty years.

    Gurinder Chadha is a very talented artist & storyteller.

    “It’s a problematic scene for Indians born in Britain”
    No, it is not.

    It’s time to go watch England play.

  • Gooner79

    DFG, sorry, major assumption on my part. I’m not sure how you would know for a fact people were binned for being positive unless you’d been binned yourself?

    So you’re going on rumour. Which is why you’re talking rubbish.

    Those guys you mentioned obviously don’t break the rules. Stop trying to control opinion you don’t like!

    Walter, you are a very sad man. I’m sure I’ve read you bleating on about this changed comment before. Get over it sir. You had an apology as Tony said, time to move on and grow up.

    Perhaps Geoff interpreted your comment incorrectly becuase your English isn’t the best? Communication is tough over the web.

  • DFG

    Gooner79. No I am not going on rumour just listening to other people who have made comment on the fact they were binned. The guys I mentioned do break the rules with virtually every comment that they make, read them for yourself. Hence my comments on the double standards from the authors of that totally rubbish blog.

  • eduardo

    I had posts deleted on le grove cos I pointed out mistakes of fact in an article and for daring to disagree with the doom and gloom attitude of an article, the last time I posted and it too was deleted was when I had the cheek to disagree with an article that slammed Koscielny as not being good enough because the author of the article had never heard of him and Chamakh could not be any good cos he was signed on a free and again the author had never seen him play. I have come to the conclusion that le grove is a spoof arsenal blog, only an arsenal blog in name, much like ANR who also have lead articles that are racist in tone and by and large anti all things arsenal