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Why Cesc Fabregas was never worth it.

by Mahdain

Well the news is out and its official; Cesc Fabregas has signed for Chelsea in a reported £30m deal for 5 years. Now in the most predictable outcome ever, Arsenal twitter verse exploded and not in a good way. The same old bullshit that has been recycled over and over and over again was taken out once more and moaning, whinging, abusing and entitled demanding ensued. As I said same old same old and nothing new.

Now before I go any further I need to make something clear; I totally and wholeheartedly agree with Arsene’s decision not to sign him.

Why you may ask?  Personally i think Cesc is nothing but a ship jumping, lying and backstabbing rat. A lot has been said about his departure and how he allegedly forced a move by going on a strike and not going on tour. We cannot be absolutely certain about it still his departure felt really sour. He left us when we needed him the most and didn’t even care what would happen to us. He went to his “home” and when it didn’t work he just expects us to take him back with open arms? Absolutely not. Having said that I think there are far more explainable reasons than mine and bear with me while I try to go through them.

We don’t need Cesc. If you asked me last year if I wanted Cesc back and I would bite your hands off without blinking. Not now and not today. For some reason many of the ill informed part of our fanbase seem to have forgotten that we signed Ozil just last summer and newsflash….he plays in the same position as Fabregas, younger than Fabregas and he is more highly regarded than Fabregas. He just had his first season in the PL and I believe he will get better and better next season.

Now i know some will say that signing Fabregas would give us more options on the bench and there lies the problem. Would Cesc ever want to sit on the bench? What guarantee did we have that he wouldn’t start sulking after a while? Because no matter how good Cesc is I’m just not sure he would be able to break into our current midfield. Where would he have played? He can’t play in the hole because that’s Ozil’s position. Box to box? Hello we have Rambo there and the only way he doesn’t play if he gets injured (really hope it doesn’t happen this season). As for some suggestions that he would have played as in Arteta’s position I have one question for you guys; are you mad? We would be leaking goals for fun with him in that position and he playing on the wings would be wastage of his talents. Dont forget we also have Jack, Santi and Chambo all vying for the same positions. So yeah I see why Arsene didn’t get him.

Another reason why I think it was right not to sign Cesc is that he was not a priority. As said earlier Cesc would be nothing more than a luxury signing and an expensive one at that. Now Man City and Chelsea can afford to pay £20-30m on a player and pay him loads of £££ per week to sit on the bench but not us. We neither have a bottomless pit of cash nor a benefactor who can just spend for the sake of spending. What we have we spend wisely and in needed areas, and the funny thing is each and every one of the moaners agree that we have far needy areas to strengthen than buying an attacking  midfielder. What I don’t get is why the moaning? Is it because of sentiment? Well a manager doesn’t make decisions based on sentiments but what it is actually needed. Can you imagine the moaning if we were after any other CAM other than Cesc?

I have seen a lot of people blaming the club for letting him join Chelsea and have said we should have signed him just for the sake of stopping him joining them. Another newsflash; we are not and I repeat we are not Man City or Chelsea. We just can’t sign players for the sake of stopping them joining rivals when we have far needy positions to take care of. For now our priorities (and I believe Arsene thinks the same) are ST, RB, a backup GK and possibly another backup CB so that both Per and Kos can be rested at the same time and don’t forget in the end it was Cesc’s decision to sign for Chelsea when he could have signed for any other team in the world.

Another reason why I think bringing Cesc back would not be a good decision is that it would send bad vibes to the current team. It will be like telling them you can backstab us and jump ship when we need you the most and we will still welcome you back with open arms and that’s not a good thing to tell your players. We need players that actually want to play for us and that won’t jump ship when things don’t go well. Players like the current lot we have right now i.e. the ones that will remain loyal and sign new contracts even when the whole world is telling them to jump ship and sorry to disappoint you but I don’t think Cesc is that player.

Now I could go on and ramble some more but I think the fact that Mr Wenger was given a chance to sign him and he said no says a lot about this whole saga. I believe in Arsene’s judgement and decisions completely and if I were ever to choose a side between him and the whole world on Arsenal matters I will always side with Arsene. He knows Arsenal than any other person in this world, he knows what we need and he knows what we don’t. Arsene knows Fabregas more than any of us and if he said no to him then he is absolutely sure that we don’t need him. This also makes me very positive about our business in this window as it means we have other targets to pursue and im sure come 31August we will have at least one marquee signing that we actually needed.

Take your toys and put them back in the pram, enjoy the summer and try to enjoy the world cup and while you are at it follow me on twitter @MahdiLodi

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112 comments to Why Cesc Fabregas was never worth it.

  • Harry Barracuda

    Spot on son.

  • gouresh

    A few yrs ago a cat [Catalonia] from part of Spain which got free food from the council became fat cat, so fat that it started to think that every1 is below them & got 2 arrogant. They started 2 think that all the kittens [Cecs] also belonged 2 them. Conveniently forgetting that they missed treated them all along & when these kittens left for better treatment, the cat got angry, very angry. But they allowed this kitten 2 grow up, b trained 2 hunt [read pass], kill [read score goals] & then thought, hell, v can have him back. Then started to 1st, nibble, then scratch, & final chew at this kittens [now grow cat] feet. Also siting that it has the same DNA as the fat cat. Finally the grown cat gives up think that he can b part of the arrogance as well. Makes the move back with all the pomp & funfare, quickly realises that its all a mirage & is being mistreated again [read boos from the fans]. Wherever happened to this magical DNA!! Since he had burnt his relations with the people to trained it to hunt & kill, has nowhere to go. Finally decides to befriend rats, but the only trouble is that these r sewer rats, or worse than sewer rats [if there is any such thing].

    CESC, U REALLY R A SHIT HEAD, U’R NOW WITH A BIGGER SHIT HEAD [read egorinio] GRASS IS NEVER GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE, DID HELB NOT TELL U. NOW U’R SHIT HEAD IS IN A BIGGER PILE OF SHIT. GOODLUCK WITH THE SMELLING.

  • omgarsenal

    Well written points Mahdain and your last one is the most salient: Wenger has bigger fish to fry. He never buys players to prevent them from playing for the opposition, hell he sells our players to the opposition! I feel that he has a big deal or deals being negotiated and he want’s too conserve his resources ($) to pull off these deal(s) rather than disrupt the club and his players by bringing back Cesc. He also knows that playing for Moanhino might be more difficult for Cesc than one can imagine and that with or without Cesc, Chealski are still a team that is aging and needs more than one star.

  • Arthur Albone

    Well said. But we do have to hope Wenger spends big and wisely on filling the gaps.

  • Magneto

    Good article.

    But why the moaning?

    Because, unfortunately, Arsenal have the most emotionally immature fans in the whole of English football.

    And there’s no sign that they are going to grow up and mature anytime soon.

  • dob

    u sit there saying u dont want cesc or need him and he is a back stabber…. but your the same type of guy that has cheered flamini and called him a great signing even though what he did was worse and all about money…. double standards…

    every season we get terrible injuries to midfield,, rambo wilshire have not played 1 full season in 5 years and we will get injuries again… like every year
    cesc is top of our assists for the last 5 years even though he was with us for 2 of those years….

    cesc felt about barca same as jenko talks about having to be dragged from arsenal before leaving…. this does not mean cesc doesnt care for arsenal…. do u remember cesc scoring against barca with a broken leg????

  • dob

    @ omgarsenal….. chelsea are an ageing team???? how do u make that out?

  • Dave C

    I love how people justified Cesc’s move to Barca with things like, ‘he’s going back to his boyhood club’ or ‘it’s in his DNA’ but always thought it was a load of crap myself.

    When players leave they can have ‘reasonable excuses’, but the excuses are exactly what they purport, a false proclamation.

    He left when Barca was the best club in the world. They had won a few European Cups, and he wanted to be part of the trophy procession. He just had a more ‘acceptable’ reason, than the Nasri’s and RVP’s of the world. People would say, he’s not betraying the club, or ‘he’s just going home’. At least RVP and Nasri were honest.

    But let’s not fool ourselves. He went ‘home’ to win trophies and felt left out because his fellow countrymen were raking in the accolades. Not only did he jump ship, he was the captain when he did it. Why would any Arsenal supporter want someone like that back?

  • dob

    and none of ye bitch about th14, vieria, leaving when we needed them most???? of course not even though cesc gave us the same amount of years service

  • Mahdain

    Also another good reason which i forgot while writing this article is his representative ala Darr£n D£in. I think the club has got tired of him and his influence on making players gold diggers just so that he can get a bigger payday. Im not sure if he represents any of our current players but the way he has screwed us in the past what guarantee would we have that he wouldnt screw us again when an oligarchy comes calling? Im sure we all can testify that the players he represents are more trouble than what they are worth. Let him go and milk Abramovich however he wants as long as he stays away from our club.

  • bjtgooner

    Good article Mahdain, well reasoned.

    Also you are right about the ultimate parasite Dein the Lesser – not a friend of Arsenal.

  • NW

    I am not as far as this article because i don’t know how much they plan to spend. If it is like 100 million, they should sign him. He can play in the centre. Santi and Wilshere can move to the flanks.

    However, I rather want the team to buy a 25 million wide player rather than 30 million Cesc.

    More importantly, I rather save 30 millions and add 40 millions for a world class striker + 3 million Vela rather than buy Cesc and a 10 million striker.

    I read some idiot actually suggest Cesc to replace Arteta.

    What nosense!!!

    Cesc can’t even take over a Xavi role, how would he take over a DM/ holding mid role? The team must buy an excellent player (20 millions gone) to cover the aging Arteta but that person is NOT CESC!!!

    The team will need a RB too which will cost anywhere 10 to 20 million (under 15 more likely).

    And a few million for Vela and a reserve keeper. Wenger might spend a few million on “young talents” and thats over 70 millions gone.

    So again, unless the team has 100 millions.Saying no to Cesc is the right decision.

    By the way, Cesc can’t play under Guardiola and you expect him to do very well under Mourinho who asks strick discipline from players? kidding

  • Pete

    The extension to this argument is that the people bewailing our prudence when spending money are often the same people that complain vociferously about ticket prices.

    I see Sagna has signed for City – so that’s two out (Lukas F being the other) and no one in so far. Still, with possible exception of Vermaelen, it does not look as if there will be any further exits.

  • Shard

    Great article Mahdain. Agree especially with the part about the message it sends out to our players. Even though they are professionals and will understand and get on with their jobs, there is still a message that goes out.

    Also, while we would all want Fabregas back because we know he can be awesome, are we really sure the Fabregas of 2014, is the same Fabregas that we used to know? The Fabregas who could run the show? Conversely, there are suggestions that Fabregas never reached the heights in Barcelona because he didn’t have the team built around him unlike at Arsenal. It doesn’t take away from his calibre as a player, but is something else to consider.

    Last season, despite us absolutely needing more creativity, the common complaint was that ‘we didn’t need Ozil’. This season a lot of those same people will throw fits at not signing Fabregas?

    I also agree with you that Ozil is better. I know that’s easy to say now but I also said it last season. My conclusion, it would be nice to have Fabregas back and see if there’s still spark in the old flame. But it is not something we need to get worked up over one bit. If he went somewhere else, no one would blink an eye. It’s only because he went to Chelsea that everyone’s getting worked up about this.

    On a different bleeeurrgh note. 70 mins in and the World Cup already ruined by the referee. Yesterday was just a terrible day for football romance. (Cesc and Mourinho might offer some dark comedy though)

  • ozed

    I see lots of Chelsea fans happy to sign Cesc. However, they forget that Mourinho basically fired Mata last year, and Cesc has the same basic style as Mata (which was why we were interested in buying Mata to replace him).
    Will be interesting to see how long Cesc lasts before they start slating him for lacking pace and slowing down their counter attacks.

  • Magneto

    Another point to bear in mind is that, no matter how much the media may hereafter try to frame the narrative that Fabregas is the replacement for Lampard, he is not.

    The replacement for Lampard was already at the club when last season ended…Matic, and that Dutch midfield player (whose name escapes me) who was injured for most of last season too.

    Fabregas is really the replacement for Juan Mata, so don’t let the media tell you otherwise.

  • JASMINE

    fab in chelshit blue? I hate dis guy. plus I was never in support of we buying him anyway. can u imagine messi playing for real Madrid any time in the future. ok. I dnt know but wit fabshit playing for chelshit anything is possible.

  • reality check

    Agree 100%. he left us with a bad taste in mouth but no one really spoke up out of respct. Wenger is right not to bring him back, he chose not to be the star man when he joined Barca and shall remain just another player in a star studded Chelsea. He can’t just come back and claim that place again.

  • Sav from Australia

    Brilliant, Mahdain. Well said.

    Off now, Cameroon vs Mexico in 5 mins.

  • GoingGoingGooner

    I didn’t like how Cesc left but I liked him as a player. By coming back and playing with Chelsea he has written off his former fan base at Arsenal. He’s not worried about it; I’m not worried about it. We’ve got great players occupying his former position and they’re the ones wearing red and white.

  • Asif

    I guess most of the fanbase is reacting to what is being written in the media which is always rubbish and anti-Arsenal. Do these people know more than Arsene? Idiots!

    @Mahdain – brilliant write up…agree with you that we need to tell the players that you cannot just leave the club and come back to be welcomed with open arms!

    Also, those of you who are trying to draw a comparison with Flamini, pls note that Flamini came and trained with the team to convince the boss to sign him up for free…moreover we needed a backup in his position and therefore why not!

    Cesc – you are a mercenary. Moaninho is going to slack you in public…you piece of ^$%#…get ready for that!

  • kene

    I’m not bothered whether Cesc joins Chelshit or not… He’s just succeeded in join my list of mercenaries… What will get me really worried is if Wenger leaves all the neccessary transfers late… We Are The Arsenal and not The Fabregas

  • ARSENAL 13

    Nice one Mahdain. People claiming Mr Wenger as a loser for not to have signed Cesc. Sic…..

    Cesc was a fine player. He carried ARSENAL on his young shoulders. He was part of some very good ARSENAL gameplay. But one area where he lacked was the never say die attitude or as the media calls it the British spine. Mr Wenger likes his players when they give it all for the cause and Cesc is not one of them.

  • Micko

    I think Wenger has made a big mistake for the simple reason that Fabregas is better than any of our other midfielders. Granted Cesc did not cover himself in glory over in Barcelona but I think that is because he is more suited to the English game, where he was brought up from an early age. Let’s hope Wenger hasn’t handed the title to Chelsea, as when he sold Van Persie to Manu.
    I am going to absolutely hate seeing Cesc in a Chelsea shirt next season but I can see it from his point of view, as being rejected by – returning to – Arsenal probably really hurt him.
    I am feeling as gutted today as I was when I heard Liam Brady or Rocky had left us.

  • menace

    Not quite all the reasons!!! The main reason why Arsenal went through a tough time in the last 5 years is because several players left for more money. They also had a common agent who is in the business for money and not for anything else. That agent is a very destructive element in Arsenals chemistry. It is crucial we never get any player who is represented by the son in law of Daniel Levy.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Nice article Mahdain, and well said menace, let’s not play down the role of this agent in the scheme of things. It is all about timing and priorities, and much as we once loved Cesc, we do not really need him. There are question marks over his recent form. We must trust his replacements, and nurture them. With the important caveat that we don’t do anything stupid like sell Santi…if some reports are to be believed….AND we strengthen where we need to, because now, we have no excuse not to be highly agressive in the transfer market where needs must.
    Wenger not signing Cesc will put a spring in the step of some of our MFs, this shows his trust in them. Ozil seems a sensitive guy who thrives on confidence, what price wengers latest show of faith in him?
    Things seem to be changing…and dare I say, in some ways, moving forward at the club behind the scenes. We have said no to the return of one loved son, another announces he will join city. I wish Bac the best except up against us, but I cannot bring myself to blame the club over Bac or Cesc. But both decisions carry a risk for wenger, but he can negate this risk.
    Let this be the summer where we don’t suffer net losses to other clubs, now there is no excuse. I trust wenger and the board to do the right thing this summer, we don’t have to forget Cesc or Bac, but let’s have players in place, from within or without that take away any doubts over them not being around next season

  • Mahdain

    @Menace and mandy yeah for some reason i forgot about him while writing this piece but as you can see i mentioned him in the comments section. I just wish he doenst get to represent another of our players as he is a destructive parasite who loves to bleed the club dry.

  • Ben

    What a load of BS this article is. Wow…

    He never had anything but good words for Arsenal and Wenger, kept following and rooting for the team and I would take him anytime over Cazorla or Wilshere. His final pass is killer, he’s versatile, we could have used him, no question asked

    He’s from Barcelona, grew up in their academy and you think he would never want to, one day, play for his childhood club?

    It’s nice to be an Arsenal fan but please…

  • Pat

    Whether we like it or not, Arsenal’s signings may be late, so steel yourselves and be prepared. Arsene said he did not expect much business to be done till after the world cup. If we get someone as good as Ozil, I don’t mind waiting till the last day of the window.

    This is why I am paying very little attention to any talk of transfers.

    But I agree with Mahdain and everybody else about Cesc.

  • dan

    Done and dusted, the Cesc era is done, we’ve moved on. Jumping ship is all in the DNA!!!!

  • Shard

    I think Wenger has made a big mistake for the simple reason that Fabregas is better than any of our other midfielders.

    Micko

    Fabregas better than most of our midfielders? I say no, he’s not better than Ozil at AM, and he’s not better than Ramsey in the Box-to-box role. He is an upgrade on Arteta, but that isn;t really his game. He might also be an upgrade in some ways on Santi,but an upgrade worth 30m and possible disruption in playing style? I would again have to say no.

    The only place he could be accommodated would be in the ARteta role and that is what I wanted or rather hoped for. It wouldn’t address our flaws in that position though. Cesc for 30m or Khedira for 15m (for example) The latter for me.

  • menace

    Fabregas is an all round brilliant midfielder because he has a mental picture of the people on the pitch and can play anyone in without appearing to think. He has slowed down a bit and lost some of his confidence. He would have been an asset at Arsenal but not with his agent. Chelsea have bought a good player and a lot of trouble.

    The Spanish result will have sapped a lot of confidence from the players. It might impact their game for a few months.

  • Mandy Dodd

    I would not swap Rambo for any other MF in the world…..and hopefully will soon be saying the same of others we have on our books. Ramsey is special, magnificent, unique, and any team in the world…..or even sepp blatters alien universe would have him.
    Yes, the Cesc era is done….is the Spain era done as well…or is it to early to say that…..

  • bjtgooner

    I agree about Rambo, he is vital to our team & probably now more valuable to our all round performance than Cesc would be should he have returned.

    Cesc was brilliant, no doubt about that, but his effort declined towards the end of his career at Arsenal, his ongoing phantom hamstring problem seemed to be part of his reluctance to play. Combined with a moody demeanor he did not help team morale during his last year or 18 months.

    With all that has happened since, I do wonder at Barcelona’s motive for chasing Cesc so insistently.

    We now have what seems to be a happy squad with many young very talented players coming to the fore, it time for them to shine without being restricted by yesterday’s man.

    As for Dein the Lesser – keep him well away from our players!

  • Mandy Dodd

    All this Cesc and ex player stuff makes me wonder……..if Moyes was still at Utd, and not van Gaal, would we have gone for an ex player…..well I have my own theory on that one…..

  • AL

    I think Cesc, while still a good player, doesn’t have that much to offer Arsenal anymore. I would pick our current midfielders over him any day. And without wanting to sound derogatory to a player that gave us his best years, those saying Wenger should have signed him to keep him away from Chelsea sound like the type of people who will stay in a bad relationship because they don’t want or can’t bear to see their partner in someone’s arms. It’ll all end in tears; if someone ain’t good for you let them go, even if they end up with your rival (or best friend). Time to move on.

    That Spain loss demonstrates that a good side can lose heavily on any given day. I think once a team starts chasing the game then that sort of thing is bound to happen. But credit to the Dutch, didn’t really look like they were in trouble at any time. Don’t they use seeding at the WC to keep the big boys apart early on? That was a bit like having Nadal v Federer in the first round at Wimbledon….

    Did anyone else notice that muppet shearer trying to talk over Thierry at every opportunity? I thought that was quite rude. But Thierry shut him up nicely after he criticised Schneider for missing that one-on-one by saying players who aren’t strikers often get caught in two minds when faced with such a situation, unlike a striker who will almost always have an idea what they need do without even thinking about it. Predictably, the muppet, had trotted one of their often overused and misused lines “he should really be scoring from that position” without analysing any contributory factors. As laymen we rely on the sort of analysis Thierry gave to explain why a player might have missed, and that’s why we need expert punditry. In fact the two seemed to disagree more than they agreed, much to my amusement 🙂 Well done Thierry.

  • ARSENAL 13

    Every engine needs lubricant to work seamlessly and efficiently. Rambo is ours. I wish we play both Ramsey and Wishere at the same time. Next season we’ll see a more refined and a lethal form of our rotating midfield concept. Cant wait…..

  • ARSENAL 13

    And speaking of the pundits, in India we had Silvestre and Crouch. Ouch….

  • ARSENAL 13

    Oh and guys, have you watched “knee sliding, an investigation” video on Arsenal Player?. ARSENAL humor.

    I say make more videos like that.

  • Mick

    I notice there is a lot being written on various sites at the moment regarding Santi Cazorla wanting to got back to Spain, specifically Atletico Madrid. This rumour apparently comes from a Spanish paper, lets hope it is bullshit.

  • Florian

    Besides the already covered reasons, another that comes to my mind is that Rambo was supposed to be Fabregas’ reserve in his early days. Imagine what it would have been like for Fabregas to sit on the bench now, watching Rambo destroying our opposition. Probably delightful for the drama-seeking pundit, but too expensive to be worth a realistic shot.

  • para

    I didn’t look for reasons, but yours are very good.
    I trust Arsene Wenger on this issue completely.

  • Paul o

    : they say that when ideology and reality collide,then what do you base your actions on that you can justify.well,my answer to that is never regret anything you do.you have to live with it right or wrong.it’s strange how i hear chelski fans outraged that they have signed cesc,whereas,our fans are up in arms about it.of course it was wengers decision and whatever he has planned it better be good.all i care about right now is getting what we need and nothing else.giroud seems convinced that another striker is on their way to the emirates,and as long as we get that and what we really need,then i’d take it all day long.i’m sure the likes of ozil,ox,wilshere, gnabry etc have a lot to prove and live up to but they must get that chance too.they will get better and if we can add the quality with that,then we have every chance to compete.i’m sure wenger knew that a lot of fans would not be happy not getting cesc back but whoever he has in mind we will all have to wait and see before making a more honest assessment.i was one of cesc’s biggest fans when he was here,but life moves on as does the game of football.wenger has a massive month or two to get it right.nothing else matters than just that for me right now.yesterday was the past.i’m more concerned what tomorrow brings.

  • Mike T

    I have tried to be objective when reading both the article itself and then the comments. And yes I get it why some wouldn’t want a player to return when that player forced through a transfer. Having said that I cant remember any outrage when Henry came back.

    However the article appears contradictory.

    In one paragraph this is said

    ” If you asked me last year if I wanted Cesc back and I would bite your hands off without blinking”

    Then in another this is said

    ” Personally I think Cesc is nothing but a ship jumping, lying and backstabbing rat. A lot has been said about his departure and how he allegedly forced a move by going on a strike and not going on tour”

    So not sure how to read that any other way than a year ago, despite the fact he wanted away from Arsenal that didn’t matter.However now he’s gone somewhere else you didn’t want him back anyway!

    Now none of us now if he will be a success or not. They say class is permanent and form is temporary. None of us now quite how or where he will play when selected or indeed at this stage which players will be moving on from or indeed arriving at both Arsenal or Chelsea so everything in terms of who will play where or indeed when.

    But one thing is certain that football now is a squad game.

    Its not just about having a first eleven or indeed playing the same formation game in game out. You have to rotate the players from a squad and you have to have a plan b.

    Most of the pundits were pretty much on the money in terms about who the season would pan out in the league for Arsenal.

    Ok you will point out the impact of injuries and that is valid but surely if, as the money is there you are going to have to pay to deepen your squad with players with proven ability as opposed to bags full of potential.

    From what is being said midfield isn’t an area many, including it seems AW, feel that needs strengthening meaning a player that was a top player at your place wont return despite his availability and despite having you having first option.

  • bjtgooner

    @Mick

    Didn’t Santi recently sign a contract extension? If so it unlikely that there is any truth in the Spanish press.

  • Robl

    @ Mike T, undoubtably he’s a good player, but as many have mentioned especially in his last season he didn’t give it all – as if he was scared about getting injured ahead of his dream move. Contrast that to Sanga or Flamini who both gave 100% to the last minute of the last game despite being out of contract, and being in deep crap if they sustained a big injury.

    That’s the reason I don’t want him, I don’t think he has the loyalty or resilience, but I don’t wish him ill.

  • Shard

    Mike T

    There is no contradiction in identifying someone’s at all in what Mahdain said. So his personal opinion is that Cesc is a lying, filthy bastard. But he would have taken him back last season. So? Is it impossible to think that a fithy so and so can have a positive impact on the field? I mean you of all people should know that being a Chelsea fan and all 😛

    And there is a huge difference between last season and this. We have Ozil, we’ve seen the emergence of Ramsey. Jack Wilshere has had a season of consolidation after his injury troubles. Ox has played there and been good and only played about 20% of our games in all. A midfielder would rationally be very low on our priority list, unless they were in the Makelele mould. Which Cesc is not.

    As for the pundits. They always predict the worst for Arsenal every year. I didn’t see many predict we’d stay top of the league for so long. I didn’t see many predict that we’d have close to the most clean sheets in the league (despite some high profile heavy losses) All they can predict is Arsenal aren’t strong enough, they need to buy buy buy. Because that’s all they do.

    And no, we don’t need ‘proven ability as opposed to bags of potential’. We need both.

    What I want to know is, how do you feel about signing an Arsenal reject who seemingly would much prefer to play for us than you?

  • Shard

    edit.. Delete ‘in identifying someone’s’ from the first line.. Bloody hell.

  • blacksheep63

    sorry I’ve not read through the comments or the article as closely as I usually do but while I agree we don’t need Cesc and so agree with much of the thrust of your argument I don;t see the need to insult a professional who took the opportunity to join his boyhood club. Cesc made a bad decision and its one he has probably come to regret. Arsene has made a footballing decision and I can see why he has. Let’s hope he doesn’t come to regret it.

    Personally I’m fed up with the Cesc/RVP/Nasri/Sagna [insert your own name here] is a traitor invective. Footballers come and go and we the fans remain. There is no loyalty in football and frankly why should there be? I have a good job with colleagues that I like and I’m paid enough to do the things I want. But if the University of [insert whatever] came knocking offering me twice my salary or a new opportunity or position that interested me I’d be mad not to consider it – as would ALL OF YOU. Because one day my employer will say, sorry mate but we don’t need you any more and I’ll be out on my ear.

    So please, stop with the insults, name calling and boos and let’s all just grow up a bit. Good luck Cesc, just not when you play against us.

  • bjtgooner

    Cesc will need to take his HGV license before joining Chelski!

  • Mike T

    Morning Shard

    I am not sure that I quite know how to take this

    “Is it impossible to think that a filthy so and so can have a positive impact on the field? I mean you of all people should know that being a Chelsea fan and all”

    How do I feel about Fabregas?

    In truth neutral!

    Someone tried to point out about loyalty last week and was taken to pieces because of it. In reality I suspect most players would rather play for someone else but through either ability being too costly or whatever go somewhere else.

    So he now one of our players so I support him, doesn’t mean I have to like him! And that applies to everyone of our players

  • Mahdain

    @Mike T i dont see how i contradicted myself. How many of us think our bosses or workmates are utter pricks but we still listen and work with them anyway? Yes i think Cesc is a lying, conniving and backstabbing bastard but i would have take him regardless last season as we were in dire need of creativity but not now. As shard has already told you we bought Ozil, Ramsey grew up into a player we always think he was and dont forget Wilshere is also one season injury free away from doing a Ramsey. Fabregas was not a priority and spending 30m on him at an expense of our other targets in far needy areas would be utter madness.
    As for the pundits and media i couldnt care about what they think we need or we dont or where will we end up in the league. We have proven them wrong time and time again you think they would have learned their lesson by now.

  • Mike T

    I think Blacksheep sum it up far more eloquently than I was able to.

  • AL

    Interesting link comparing Fabregas with Carzola, and Santi wins in all areas;

    http://hereisthecity.com/en-gb/2014/06/11/five-key-areas-santi-cazorla-out-performs-cesc-fabregas/

  • Shard

    Blacksheep

    While you are correct, you are also incorrect. Everything has a context. Yes, it is only a job to the players. And the players are only employees.

    But, by all accounts, Arsenal, and especially Arsene Wenger also treats them with a human quality and not simply as commodities (I hate the term human resource)

    If in your current job, it was your employer who had given you a break, taken a chance on you being good at it only on the basis of your talent where others wouldn’t, if you knew that a thousand people gained happiness by you staying, and that your departure will leave your current employer pretty much in the lurch, I would like to think that would impact your decision. I know it would mine.

    I’m not denying that players deserve to be paid. A lot of them moved to Arsenal for more money after all. But there are circumstances and a way to do it. Fabregas was wrong, and Van Persie was wrong. Both for the way they left. I actually have almost no issue with Nasri except that on leaving he became involved in a war of words with Arsenal fans, which is slightly hilarious too. Sagna leaving, Flamini leaving earlier, no issue with that (although he did apparently lie about signing a new contract)

    Some people do go overboard in calling everyone traitors, or going on twitter to abuse players (or even their wives!), which is stupid. But sorry, while I fully support the idea of sport as a business and recognition of it as such by fans, I do not think it being sanitised of all passion and emotions is something to be done.

    Cesc stood by and watched as his hometown club disrespected, over a period of two years, the club that adopted him (and who HE professed to love too. No one made him do that), decided he wanted to move, went on strike/feigned injury to force Arsenal to sell him (and below market value),forced Arsenal to break his contract and then essentially paid his loyalty bonus to Barcelona, all the while knowing that it would mean a destruction of a team built around him. Cesc screwed those that had shown faith in him.

    You might call that professionalism, and while I am not going to dispute that, I also call it a dick move. Professionals can be, and often are, dicks too. Cesc is a dick, and I don’t see why you should have a problem with me saying that. DO you also have a problem with us cheering them on when they are only doing their jobs? That is equally irrational.

  • Shard

    Mike T

    I did put an emoticon at the end of that because it was just a joke addressed to you.

    I won’t hide the fact that I think Chelsea’s club culture and the behaviour of many of its players (and your manager) disgust me. I am not alone in this and I don’t mean just Arsenal fans. However, that in no way affects this conversation. I meant it as a joke and I thought you would find it funny, rather than offensive, since you cannot be unaware of how Chelsea’s players are perceived and are still usually willing to have proper debates here. It was a momentary by-the-by comment.

    As for Cesc, I think that’s a fair stance. I just found it amusing that Cesc basically says he’d rather have played for one of your rivals while signing and Chelsea fans start claiming they got one over on Arsenal.

  • Mike T

    Shard

    Its amazing how when you go back over what you have written you sometimes go “Ah not the cleverest thing to say”

    I knew your comment was a jest and in truth I thought I was replying likewise . So whoops! hopefully harm done.

    Its strange again how tribal we can get as you talk about other clubs for we very easily see the bad in other clubs, their managers their players and indeed their supporters yet we all very easily overlook matters within our own club and yes that’s me included.

    I am wary of believing what the press say about players, often they get it terribly wrong and that in reality includes quite a bit believe it or not about John Terry. Not the Ferdinand incident because we will never but the alleged incident around an ex of Wayne Bridge.

    Cesc said what he feels he had to say , all players do. I take it all with a pinch of salt as at the end of the day 99%+ are only where they are because its the best deal available to them.

    As for Chelsea fans getting one over on Arsenal, bit of a silly stance in truth just as the stance from Arsenal supporters who level abuse, wish him ill(even death I read) because he signs for a rival bearing in mind that rival didn’t want to re sign him

  • Mike T

    hopefully no harm done.

  • jayramfootball

    Can’t really agree with you on this one OP.

    Whilst I do think that Cesc is a lying , cheating, back stabbing little runt, hell bent on nothing in life but himself, I also think we will end up regretting this.

    We’re also starting to hear rumours of Cazorla leaving, but this might just be newspaper hacks trying to create a story off the back of the Cesc saga… regardless Cazorla is approaching 30, Rosciky is past 30, Diaby is taking up a squad place (should have been released a long time ago), Arteta is getting to the end of his career, Kallstrom is in the squad.. (I think!) …there is plenty of room for Cesc in the Arsenal squad and he would have improved us. There really can not be a doubt about that. Throw in the fact that Ozil may or may not be with us for the long term. I think if he doesn’t kick on next year he will look to leave and I also think the media will be making as difficult as possible for him – i.e. unless he scores/sets up three goals a game he will be ‘rubbish’.

    Fabregas is a proven world class creative midfielder, comfortable in the PL and Chelsea are FAR stronger with him – as we would have been (and could have been)

  • blacksheep63

    Yes @Shard everything does have a context and of course I am neither right nor wrong (this isn’t maths). When i give a good talk on history people applaud even though they have paid to hear me speak, so I think your point about cheering the team is a little silly. My wider point was that the Cesc business is in many ways irrelevant to Cesc and we should waste less time and emotion on it. If you or the writer of the article bump into Cesc by all means feel free to call him every name under the sun, or act however you like. I won’t be giving him that much of my attention as he now plays for Chelski.

    In 1980 I was distraught that my Arsenal hero signed for Juventus despite us signing his name on the North Bank week after week. How could he do that to us? When he eventually came back he signed for West Ham (a local rival) where he ended his playing career. A traitor or an Arsenal legend? Who am I referring to? Liam Brady

    the moral of the story? Well. there isn’t one unless its to say we move on, football is emotional, passionate, but still a business and yes its all relative; if I left my job today dozens of people would be upset (for a while) then, like us, they would find a new person to invest their hopes and dreams in; I would be history (which given that I am a historian, is kind of appropriate) 🙂

  • Mike T at 12.28pm

    “I think Blacksheep sum it up far more eloquently than I was able to.”

    You meant to write: “Finally, someone wrote something that I agree with”

    You were not saying the same thing as blacksheep63, so I don’t see how he summed anything up better than you were able to.

    I agree with blacksheep63 about stopping the name calling. Hell, I even cheered RvP’s first goal yesterday for its instinctiveness.

    Would I have been happy to have Cesc back? Absolutely yes.

    Am I mad that he has joined Chelsea? Definitely not.

  • Mike T

    Bootoome

    el·o·quent adjective \ˈe-lə-kwənt\

    Having or showing the ability to use language clearly and effectively

    And that’s what he did and

  • Paul o

    Last season Arsene promised to ‘earn’ his contract. By winning FA Cup and by coming 4th in PL, I believe he did that – although a rolling one-year contract or two-year contract might have been more appropriate. We can only hope that he continues to ‘earn’ that contract. How much responsibility lies on his shoulders for the barren years is a matter of conjecture. I still believe that they were mostly due to lack of investment in players, to the the selling-off of our best players. In other words, due to lack of money, due to an austerity programme imposed from above by the former owners, heightened by the current owner. Now we have been told time and again, both by Wenger and by the Great Gatz, that the austerity programme is now ancient history. I am not a great fan of Arsene’s management – I prefer a manager who concentrates on creating trophy-winning sides, and leaves the rest to the hierarchy. (That is the sort of contract which should have been on offer). But I have never doubted his ability as an outstanding football coach, as a man-manager. Circumstances led to his over-arching role at the Club. Probably no other manager, here or in Wurope, has such power. But his power ends when it comes to the amount of the wages/transfers budget. Indeed, that was why he was given such power – the owners knew he would not complain about lack of money. Another flaw in him as a manager: he has allowed the former owners, and now the current owner, to get away with murder. Of course none of us know the answer to the key question: the size of the transfer pot. It ought to be every penny in the bank account – but for sure, it won’t be. But anything less than £70m would be unthinkable. And I am certain that Arsene can do a helluva lot with £70m.

  • Shard

    Blacksheep

    So in a professional job people are always only nice to each other and no one ever thinks or says bad things about anyone else regardless of how they behave?

    How does my point on cheering become silly when you were the one saying it is silly to voice disapproval of someone’s actions only because they are doing a job? Does being in a job excuse any behavior surrounding that job?

    “That bus driver was so rude to that man while telling him to pay the correct change, what a jerk!”
    “Oh you can’t say that.Don’t be so childish. He’s only doing his job”

    “That bus driver just left his bus in the middle of the road with passengers on board because he got a higher paying job as a taxi driver somewhere, what a dick move.”
    “Hey. If you got a better job offer elsewhere, you’d do the same.”

    I don’t disagree with finding new heroes, or even letting the past stay in the past. It’s not like this article was a slander piece. It is the author’s opinion on Cesc’s actions and they are relevant because of the transfer of Fabregas and Arsenal not taking up the option to sign him and him then signing for our rivals.

    Being a professional or doing your job, is no excuse for poor behaviour. And I could just as easily argue that being professional means honouring your contract rather than going on strike and so what makes Cesc worthy of booing is his unprofessional behaviour.

    And while it might be childish to boo, it is childish to watch football and invest so much into it anyway. We’re all children as football fans. You’re just picking the wrong battle here if you can’t understand why Cesc would be worthy of booing. And in this case no one is even booing.

    I recognise football is a business and players treat it like a job. What you seemingly forget in your rationality that as part of this professional transaction (they take my money)I am not obliged to take into account and evaluate Cesc’s motivations, since I pledge my loyalty to Arsenal. Immature? Not really. It is part of the dynamics of this business that you want to highlight football is.

  • Shakabula Gooner

    Wenger was never going to take him back at £200,000 per week and for 5years. This, really, might have been the greatest obstacle of all.

    I don’t believe that he is way better than those we already have in our squad and that we are paying £100,000/week or less. I also agree with those that think that his re-integration in the squad may be problematic in view of Ramsey’s growth, Carzola’s performance and Ozil’s acquisition while he was away from the club on an excuse that merely pandered to his exclusive interests.

    I do agree with Blacksheep63 that we can retain goodwill towards him and the rest of his footballing career notwithstanding the disappointments we felt when he left and now that we he desires to return but having him is now at an unreasonable price and more for emotional than for footballing reasons.

  • AL

    Joel Campbell looking very good in an average Costa Rican side. I think we have a very good backup/second option to Giroud if he’s now eligible to play in the premiership.

  • finsbury

    Al

    I hoped Campbell would take this opportunity, he’s had a good season and impressed in the CL and now the World Cup, MOTM tonight I think it’s fair to say.

  • AL

    MOTM by a mile Finsbury

  • Paul o

    @shakabula fab took a pay cut to play for barca. Not sure where you got the 200k figure from.

  • Pat

    All these points about people getting new jobs, and how natural it is, are very true.

    But I can’t help feeling differently about different players.

    So I will always be happy to see Gervinho and Eduardo do well. But I can never really enjoy RVP scoring a goal now, no matter how brilliant it is. And I will not enjoy seeing Cesc Fabregas playing for Chelsea either. That’s despite the fact that I agree we don’t need him and shouldn’t have bought him back.

  • Tom

    If Fabregas and RVP had ” honorably” executed their contracts like Sagna and Flamini did , Arsenal FC would’ve been stripped of some £55M in transfers . Fabregas spent eight years at our club and represents the single biggest return on investment to date at about €39M.
    For a site that has repeatedly claimed Arsenal had to develope and sell players at a profit to pay for the cost of the stadium, Fabregas should be celebrated as the biggest contributor to “pay for the stadium fund” and not ridiculed, I should think.

  • And here comes disingenuous Tom.

  • TommieGun

    I don’t think we need Cesc back, I actually think that if we would have signed him, it would have had negative influence on the squad.

    However, I agree 1000% with Blacksheep. And then some.

    (1) Here at Untold we take pride that AFC is being run like a business, and say that this is the proper way to run a football club. That should go the same for players. Players moving for more money, is the sensible thing to do. So I never understand people criticzing players for moving for more money. Like Blacksheep said, every single one of you (who is not a millionaire) would have changed jobs for double (or more) of the wages.

    (2) AFC (and other clubs) don’t give a rat’s ass about loyalty. Football clubs offer contract extensions to players that will be useful in the next few years. When you are too old, or when your form declines, that doesn’t happen. No one remembers your “good” years. Ask Freddie, ask Pires, ask Sagna, ask Dennis. Sometimes players are happy with a 1 year contract. But usually they want more. Or better – ask players who just became shit. Why didn’t we keep Arshavin? I’m sure he would have been happy to stay here and get paid.

    (3) Leaving a club will always be an emotional matter and unlike leaving a “normal” job, where you have your boss and your clients, in a football club (or any sports team) you have the fans and you have a lot of emotional elements in your day-to-day job. However those elements should not substatially influence the big decisions such as moving clubs. Saying Cesc is a dick (Shard) because his departure “ruined” the club is baseless, the same way Pires could have though AFC are dicks for not extending his contract by 2 years (his life was in England, his family, he had plans, etc.).

    (4) May I remind you that in REAL TIME, not retrospect, none of us here thought that he is faking injury or ruining the team’s morale. I invite each and every one of you to go through UA archives towards then end of 2011. We were all hoping he would stay and kept on mentioning how good he is for the team. No one called it “phantom” hamstring, mind you. That just infuriates me.

    (5) So in the end its all about manners. And manners matter. We are upset about RVP because we think he was lying to us (it’s not about the money, it’s the inner child shit) and not about Clichy because he kept his mouth shut and did it very professionaly. Same goes for Adebayor and Nasri who were completly classless after leaving us. Wasn’t Henry wooed by Barca for eternity? Why aren’t we hating him?

    Manners mean that you sometimes fake a bit to give someone else a good feeling. You don’t tell your wife she gained weight; you don’t tell your kid his drawing looks retarded; you don’t tell someone they were a lousy, boring sex; if you are a normal person you keep some of the shit that goes on within yourself, to yourself.

    So in my eyes Cesc – DNA or no DNA – was polite to us. He said I still love the club and the fans, and I want to go home. It was plausible. In real time, it was understandable. And most importantly – Arsene supported it.

    So if anything, the bad feelings toward Cesc right now make you guys look like a bunch of dicks.

    Of course I don’t wish him well since he moved to fuckin KGB but on the personal level I am in a way a bit sorry for him. He did make a bad move when he left us and he is the one paying the price for that.

  • Tom

    And here comes the self righteous one with a Bootoomee’s Verdict(LOL)
    But I’m impressed with the three minute response time, which should probably rival the US response time to a nuclear attack. Very impressive indeed.

  • TommieGun,

    If you look at my comment above, you’ll see that we are in firm agreement. I think that the writer of this article is countering the section of our fans that are upset (to put it very mildly) that Arsene refused to sign Cesc, thereby letting him go to Chelsea.

    When Cesc left for Barcelona, I was more relieved than upset and that was my exact feeling when Henry left too. These were moves that we’ve all known would happen all along. Henry was getting old and quite a few of us wanted him to get the chance to win the Champions’ league. When he finally did, I was very happy for him. Cesc’s case was less easy for me to bear, I must confess but the way that Barcelona were going about it was very upsetting. Their sense of entitlement was nauseating. When he finally made the move, I was like “okay, can we finally move on?”.

    Now, I won’t go as far as condemn those who loathe him for his ‘betrayal’ but I don’t share that sentiment. The only person that was betrayed in my opinion is Arsene Wenger and if he can let it go, who am I to hold a grudge?

    Considering that fans would usually demand that under-performing players be shipped out, I don’t think that we have any moral high ground when good players choose to move on too.

    I don’t wish Cesc any bodily harm but football wise, I wish him nothing but bad luck. May his shots on goal always hit the bar and may he set a record of own goals for Chelsea. For those wishing well except against us, what if they win all their other matches? Fuck that. I wish him bad luck – football wise.

  • Tom,

    An “LOL” (what are you, a teenager?) after dickish comment still makes you a dick.

    And for someone who has a problem with ‘a site’ (based on your continuous whining), you come across as masochistic by sticking around. How about you set up your own blog where there will be no contradictions and the sort of inconsistencies for which Untold is notorious according to you?

    My problem with you is not because we disagree, my problem with you is that you are full of shit.

  • blacksheep63

    thanks @TommieGun for being a sane voice amongst some curious logic.

    @Shard, your bus driver analogy is daft; behaving badly is different from going on strike and your driver would be reprimanded for being rude. Arsenal could have taken action if Cesc withdrew his labour but perhaps they chose not to. None of us actually know the truth anyway. But, since we (supposedly at least) passed on the opportunity to take him back, his engineering of a move was not forgotten by Arsene who now chooses to put his faith in Ramsey and the Ox

  • TommieGun

    @ Bootoome – football wise, I wish him the luck equivalent of gettign a manure truck dumped on your head…

    @ Blacksheep – don’t mention it. Sanity sandwiches sold here.

  • TommieGun

    ** @ Shard – HIS HEAD ! duhhh

  • Mahdain

    @Blacksheep i think shard has said a lot on that without me needing to add anything. As i said my opinion of Cesc is that he is a ship jumping rat and that wont change. The whole nature of his departure was utterly disrespectful to the club. He allowed each and every person in Barcelona to tap him up without him raising a voice. They forced a barca jersey in him during the national team parade and again he did nothing. He was the captain of the team and he left all of his teammates hanging when he could have spoken up and put an end to the disgusting Barca campaign but he didnt.
    Then came his departure and the whole dark cloud sorrounding it. As i said a lot has been written on the nature of his departure and the apparent strike and refusal to go on tour and dont get me started on him buying out his contract and apparent forsaking of his loyalty bonuses. His whole conduct during the transfer was utterly disrespectful to Arsenal fc, Arsene Wenger and us Arsenal fans who believed in him and cherished him greatly. So forgive me if i dont find that behaviour proffesional andi really hope he gets all the booing he deserves

  • Tom

    Bootoomee
    I saddens me deeply you have a problem with me. I rather enjoy your commentary and your ‘expert ‘ analysis on Samsung I mean Arsenal FC and your football- Nazi and football – slavery references but I visit this site especially for comments like that of Blacksheep63 and many other posters who don’t presume to have the authority on truth and correctness the way you , shard and some others think they do and until your name features next to Tony and Walter’s as founders of this site or it’s proprietors, you can kiss my ass.

  • jayramfootball

    I think this debate comes down to the question : “Would Cesc have made us better and more likely to win trophies next year?”

    My view is that the answer to that question is a resounding YES.

    However, Arsene Wenger’s view is that the answer is NO, so we move on. He is the manager after all and as long as he is accountable for his decisions then we need to close the book on it and get behind Arsenal FC for next year and forget Cesc Fabregas (or whatever his name is) .

    Like all these things the initial reaction of shock and disappointment is understandable, but now, after a few days/weeks it’s pretty much a done deal. Fabregas is a Chelsea player and I wish him nothing but failure on the football pitch – as for all Chelsea players. I have zero feeling about him or anything he ever did for Arsenal – don’t see him any differently to John Terry frankly.

    Come on Arsenal!

  • Shard

    “your bus driver analogy is daft; behaving badly is different from going on strike and your driver would be reprimanded for being rude.”

    Blacksheep

    huh? Who would reprimand him? The bus company? But in this case we are talking about the passengers (the Arsenal fans) having the right to express their opinion on the matter, since it affects them.

    Let’s have a look at your original comment.
    “I don;t see the need to insult a professional who took the opportunity to join his boyhood club.”

    I don’t see your problem with Fabregas being insulted. If he made a professional decision, does that mean that decision has to be respected by everyone?

    Your explanation is..

    “There is no loyalty in football and frankly why should there be?”

    Did I say loyalty is an issue? When I specifically mentioned Nasri moving for money or trophies not being a problem for me. I did however say that there is a way to do these things and while Cesc might have done that in your opinion, it wasn’t the proper way in my opinion. So, why should I not voice that opinion?

    TommieGun

    You too seem to think it is an issue of loyalty. Like I said, there is a way to do some things and I don;t agree with how Cesc engineered his transfer.

    You have no issue with how he left, that’s your call. But I do take exception to it and I’m not going to just ignore it because his PR manager is better than Van Persie’s. And I’m not going to stop from voicing this opinion because you think it makes me look like a dick to disagree with your take on things.

    It’s not like it was even over the top abuse. I call the likes of Xavi, Lampard, Suarez, Rooney much worse all the time. Why should I not call Cesc a dick for being a dick? Because he once played for us? Now wouldn’t that be bringing loyalty into it? Which I am told doesn’t exist, so doesn’t matter.

    Heaven forbid anyone say anything bad about Cesc Fabregas who once played for us but then left us to ‘go home’ and then was rejected by them and us and so now plays for Chelsea. Why say anything bad about anybody since that makes you look like a dick. Football fans of the world unite…Let’s all sing Kumbaya.

  • Mandy Dodd

    In the context of of who we have, and what we need, wengers view on passing up on Cesc could be seen at least as understandable. However, if there is any truth in these Santi Cazorla rumours, the said context changes dramatically. With the injuries we suffer, especially in MF we need depth. With injuries, the PGMOL are unlikely to protect our players, and our new fitness guru cannot be expected to change things overnight.
    I really hope those Santi rumours are just paper talk and mischief over a player who has just signed a long deal

  • Shard

    Manners mean that you sometimes fake a bit to give someone else a good feeling. You don’t tell your wife she gained weight; you don’t tell your kid his drawing looks retarded; you don’t tell someone they were a lousy, boring sex; if you are a normal person you keep some of the shit that goes on within yourself, to yourself.

    And Tommie Gun

    I don;t need a lesson in moral science from you. I know what manners are, despite making use of the full extent of my vocabulary at times. Times which I feel deserve such use. I’m not entitled to voice my opinion on Fabregas because of good manners? Seriously?

    And the criticism isn;t even of Fabregas himself. I bear him no ill will personally. If he’s happy in his life, I don’t care. Nor do I care if he’s not. I can differentiate between Fabregas the person, and Fabregas the player. Can you? Because you certainly seem to take criticism of him personally.

  • Shard

    Tom

    “other posters who don’t presume to have the authority on truth and correctness the way you , shard and some others think they do ”

    Still sore about Surfer X being banned?

  • Mike T

    Its worth looing at the make up of your squad in numerical terms (25 of which a maximum of 17 only can be non home grown)

    Factor in the players that last year were under 21 and didn’t count in the 25 but next season will

    Assume that those that have already left will be replaced with players that play in the same position

    When you do all that I think you will find that AW possibly wasn’t in a position to sign him even though he is home grown. The timing is completely wrong and had he signed it may well have caused far more problems re the numbers than he could risk at this time.

  • Shard

    Mike T

    We have 7 spots available now after Sagna and Fabianski left. 5 of those for non-homegrown players.

    We need 2 keepers (if Martinez is third choice he’ll still need to be registered but count as Homegrown) and we need 1 right back.

    That leaves 3+1 spots.

    Now what we need depends on what people’s own opinions, but I’d say the consensus would be that we need a striker and a DM, with a 4th choice CB and a winger other spots mentioned.

    So, you might be correct. Although a youngster of U21 can be 4th choice CB, or indeed the DM can play there. The winger might not be essential and even so we have Gnabry. Joel Campbell will have to be registered though, and I THINK..he counts as HG.

    In terms of squad space, I think we could have fit in Fabregas. In terms of game time however, I am less certain. Wilshere and Ramsey both only played half our games last year. Even if you reduce the game time required by Arteta, Flamini and Rosicky, I don;t think we could justify a 30m pound signing only to offer us that ‘depth’. Unless we sold someone of course.

    I still wanted him because he’s good and because a lot of our midfield will be out of contract soon. And are aging anyway. But for whatever reason (and it doesn’t have to be only footballing reasons) Wenger didn’t think so. (or perhaps Fabregas didn’t agree the terms Wenger was prepared to offer) I can see the logic behind that too. I don;t think the squad size counts highest among those factors, but might be one.

  • davi

    I don’t think Ozil needs to feel like the main man. He wasn’t at Real nor when he first started playing for Germany but he was great. I really think he thrives by integrating into the team and is brilliant at subtly effecting the game, but is less brilliant when he’s the guy everyone is looking at to do something, I don’t think he likes that pressure (this opinion is based only on what I’ve seen of him this season and of course everything could be different after having that year to acclimatise).
    Fabregas doesn’t necessarily need to be the main man to do well, but judging on what we saw from him at Arsenal in comparison to what he did at Barca, he’s at his best being the focal point of the team. I really think it was a big mistake not to sign him back because he could have taken the pressure of Ozil and brought the best out of him. If Cazorla really wants to leave then who better to take Santi’s place in the squad? Honestly, the running, skill and finishing of Ramsey in combination with the intelligence and passing ability of Cesc is surely the best possible CM pair I can think of for Arsenal. Add to that the subtle brilliance of Ozil in a freer role and I really think we could have forged a side capable of beating anyone even on an average day.

  • bjtgooner

    @Tom

    I don’t think anyone was ridiculing Fabergas; he was a great player, well loved by the fans and we were all sad to see him go. However, the manner of his departure left a lot of bad memories which stained an otherwise good reputation.

  • bjtgooner

    @TommieGun

    I note you take exception to the phrase “phantom hamstring” and further: –

    “That just infuriates me.”

    Well – if you want to be infuriated – just be infuriated.

    But – did you use the infuriated expression to imply the “phantom hamstring” was inaccurate – or do you just get infuriated when someone disagrees with you?

    I see you told us “And manners matter.” Well are you displaying good manners when you state: –

    “So if anything, the bad feelings toward Cesc right now make you guys look like a bunch of dicks.”

    So if you agree with Blacksheep why the derogatory terminology?

  • TommieGun

    @ Shard, seems YOU have taken it a bit personally and not like your usual, impeccably logical self [I am not being sarcastic]. That Kumbaya remark in the end pretty much sums it up.

    Not once did I make a remark regarding your manners or anyone else here. Nor will I ever try to think that my morals are better than others.

    Re the Cesc treatment – I don’t give a fuck about swearing and a dick is, as you said, a very light compliment. My problem is that some people seem to take it personally when a player leaves our club and I was trying to make a point about it.

    I cannot understand why you think I cannot differntiate between Cesc the person and Cesc the footballer. I don’t give a fuck about Cesc the person. That’s why I don’t think Messi is more likeable than Ronaldo. Hell, I like the bad guys – I believe them. Good guys alawys creep me out, I imagine them hiding a double edged axe under the bed…

    To simplfy things: I think the way Cesc left Arsenal is one of the least shittiest ways to leave a club where you are the star player and captain.

  • TommieGun

    @ BJT – it seems to me that you either (a) have a reading comprehension problem (b) looking to pick an internet pussy fight, one of your favorite activities.

    Out of respect, I’ll start with option (a).

    What I wrote, the full quote and not some partial misrepresentation, was [emphasis added] –

    “May I remind you that in REAL TIME, NOT RETROSPECT, none of us here thought that he is faking injury or ruining the team’s morale” – so this was my main point, and not the “phantom” hamstring.

    I continued – “I invite each and every one of you to go through UA archives towards then end of 2011. We were all hoping he would stay and kept on mentioning how good he is for the team. No one called it “phantom” hamstring, mind you.” – I didn’t see anyone take up the glove, BTW.

    I finished with – “THAT just infuriates me”. – so someone with basic reading comprehension skills, could have easily understood that what infuriates me is how people reacted to Cesc leaving in real time, vs. the way they are portraying it today.

    I fail to see the relevance in your comment regarding manners, since I did not say that I am being well mannered when I write here (or well mannered at all). However in order to put things in the right context, I can assure you that if I would have had to break up with someone or leave my employer or otherwise do something that needs emotional sensitivity, I would do my best to be as well mannered as my foul mouth allows me.

  • Shard

    TommieGun

    I am fully logical when I say that in my opinion, Cesc did the dirty on us. We didn’t ‘BELIEVE’ that Cesc would do such a thing as fake injury. We didn’t want to believe that Cesc would allow his Spanish colleagues to disrespect us over the years to get his move, and that he was so desperate to leave that he’d leave us shortchanged and with no other options. The fact that we didn’t want to believe such a thing then to me says nothing about Cesc being respectful, more about us being forgiving and believing in our players. It does not change how he got his move.

    However, all this is moot, and if you think he was respectful (or respectful enough) simply because his PR advisor told him to keep shut, that’s ok by me too. We can disagree without it becoming a matter of decrying the others’ opinion as childish (yes I know that wasn’t you)

    As for taking it personally, it depends how you define that. Do I care enough to talk about it on the blog when it’s relevant? Yes. But do I lose sleep over it or stick needles into a Cesc Voodoo doll? No. I don’t think the first bit qualifies as me taking it too personally.

    Reading your comment again, I realise the bit about manners wasn’t aimed at anyone. So I apologise for making that inference.

  • bjtgooner

    @TommieGun

    “I fail to see the relevance in your comment regarding manners” – you are being a bit disingenuous here – you were being uncouth with your use of the term “dick” while telling us manners are important.

    I did note your REAL TIME comment. But in your earlier post you stated: –

    “May I remind you that in REAL TIME, not retrospect, none of us here thought that he is faking injury or ruining the team’s morale.”

    (Do you really know what everyone thinks, does everyone write everything that they think?)

    Well, I can remember Wenger stating that Fabergas’s hamstring injury was in his head – I noted that at the time because it was a very un Wenger like comment. Further I remember Fabergas trying to explain his injury calling it “a little thing in the muscle”, but he failed to convince. Fabergas then refused to go on the summer tour – his injury (the phantom one) was the supposed reason. But as soon as he arrived in Barcelona he was fit to play.

    Now Tommy lets look at your last sentence: –

    “However in order to put things in the right context, I can assure you that if I would have had to break up with someone or leave my employer or otherwise do something that needs emotional sensitivity, I would do my best to be as well mannered as my foul mouth allows me.”

    I find this hard to believe – when you display considerable and unnecessary foul mouthed comments on here.

    As for your initial comment: –

    “@ BJT – it seems to me that you either (a) have a reading comprehension problem (b) looking to pick an internet pussy fight, one of your favorite activities.

    Out of respect, I’ll start with option (a).”

    Having been disrespectful you then use the phrase “out of respect”. I think you are being economical with the truth on that one.

    As for picking a pussy fight – I was responding to YOUR comment on my post – I would have thought you would have realized that before engaging your desire to derogate.

    Recently a lot of your posts have been good – until today! – so if wind your arrogance in a bit and be less insulting you and I may get on fine.

  • Tom

    Bjtgooner

    “Personally i think Cesc is nothing but a ship jumping, lying and backstabbing rat.”

    “I don’t think anyone was ridiculing Fabregas….”

    Are you sure?

  • bjtgooner

    @Tom

    Derogation and ridicule are not necessarily the same thing. 🙂

    But my view (and you may see it differently) is that Fabergas was less than truthful about his hamstring.

  • AL

    Come on people, Fabregas is history. It’s a little saddening to see so many posts, with some resorting to verbal sparring, over a player who is on his second move after leaving us, when an article about a young Arsenal prospect who lit the WC alight gets only a handful of responses.

  • TommieGun

    @ Shard – fair enough about the ‘belief in real time’ explanation, I accept it. I naturally see it differently both on the merits of Cesc’s specific case and of course generally regarding the whole loyalty issue.

    To me, in sports there is only one loyalty – fans to the club. I don’t expect anything else. The rest is all interests intersecting, like everything else in life.

    This is further amplified by the one-way traffic loyalty demanded by most fans: loyalty by players to the club. The funny thing is, that you hardly see managers or other players looking down on players who were perceived by fans as disloyal. They live within their world and they know better.

    I am not saying, it’s just money and numbers. Far from it. But let’s take Bac. He’s 31. He is going to be out of job in 3 years or so. He needs to make some money. NOW. So yeah I hate it that he left us for money – but I completly understand that, and I fully trust AW that he made the right calculation in not paying him what he wanted [despite being sad about it].

  • TommieGun

    @ BJT – luckily you are not a lawyer, any judge would have thrown you out of the court.

    You have a habit of making partial, misleading quotes.

    So here we go again –

    re the PARTIAL manners quote – here is the FULL quote:

    “I fail to see the relevance in your comment regarding manners” – your partial quote.

    And the full quote – “since I did not say that I am being well mannered when I write here (or well mannered at all).” – an explanation which proves that I was indeed ingenuos.

    You are being misleading and deceptive.

    “Well, I can remember Wenger stating that Fabergas’s hamstring injury was in his head – I noted that at the time because it was a very un Wenger like comment. Further I remember Fabergas trying to explain his injury calling it “a little thing in the muscle”, but he failed to convince. Fabergas then refused to go on the summer tour – his injury (the phantom one) was the supposed reason. But as soon as he arrived in Barcelona he was fit to play.” – Tsk, tsk. So in real time you REALLY thought Cesc was faking it, but you wrote nothing about it? You really thought it was all part of him engineering a move – but failed to express it?

    “I find this hard to believe – when you display considerable and unnecessary foul mouthed comments on here.” [re me saying I can act in a well mannered way, if I choose to] – do you seriously contend that I cannot express myself without cursing? Maybe you are suggesting I’m suffering from some sort of Tourrette’s syndrom? That’s absurd even at your standards.

    “Out of respect, I’ll start with option (a). – Having been disrespectful you then use the phrase “out of respect”. I think you are being economical with the truth on that one.” – Wrong again. Not economical with the trust, economical to the point of parsimony with respect to you. I guess you didn’t catch the sarcasm. Pity.

    “As for picking a pussy fight – I was responding to YOUR comment on my post – I would have thought you would have realized that before engaging your desire to derogate.” – I thought your name was BJT, not Mahdain. Oh, you actually thought I responded to your comment. Cute. Conceited, but cute.

    Which brings us to the last point – (and the best one)

    “Recently a lot of your posts have been good” – oh thank you very much teacher sir! Can I get a golden star?

    ” – until today! – so if wind your arrogance in a bit and be less insulting you and I may get on fine.” – dude, I mean, really, WHO.THE.FUCK.ARE.YOU?.?.? Are you for real? Are you REALLY talking to me about arrogance?! Calling the kettle black, etc…

    BTW and FYI: The only reason I pick fights with you is the smelly hot air you surround yourself with, acting like UA is your website, telling people off, etc.

  • bjtgooner

    @TommieGun

    Re: – “The only reason I pick fights with you is the smelly hot air you surround yourself with, acting like UA is your website, telling people off, etc.”

    Nonsense – again you are being economical with the truth.

    The only reason you react in the ignorant way that you do is that when you comment in an insulting manner you cannot stand being called out – you seem to think you should be given cart blanche to insult without riposte. When confronted your ego takes your thinking away from logic.

    So rather than behave in arrogant egotistic bullying manner – cool the crap – and your silly outbursts.

    And – just remember you previously tried to muzzle my comments – you failed and made a fool of yourself.

  • Mahdain

    I still stand by what i said re Fabregas being a lying rat but in no way did i say he was a bad player. The fact of matter is his exit felt really sour and full of deceipts and lies. As a captain of the team he should have spoken up about the constant tapping up by the entire staff and people of Barcelona that went on for two years. By shutting up he put Arsenal in a difficult position regarding his price and as a result was sold way below his market price. He even let go of his bonuses just to join his “home” and that was utterly disrespectful towards us.
    Imo Nasri left with more grace than he did because unlike him Nasri didnt go on strike, went on tour and played till his last day without forgetting Nasri didnt have a mythical hamstring injury that was magically cured when he left Arsenal. Im sorry for Cesc fanboys but truth is Cesc was utterly unproffesional towards his departure.

  • TommieGun

    @ BJT – I’ll offer you a deal –

    You don’t respond to my posts personally, I won’t respond to yours. It’s a waste of space and it does not interset the rest of the readers here.

  • bjtgooner

    @TommyGun

    When you introduce the word “personally” you could open up more than one meaning. So, rather than ask you to clarify I will offer you a counter proposal.

    Stop using foul and insulting language to all posters and I will not make further personal comments to you. We remain free to discuss football matters.

  • oldgroover

    Thank the sweet Lord!

  • Brickfields Gunners

    @ Mahdin – nice article . Like most I’ve moved past Cesc as I have the others who left us.
    While I’ll not be wishing him well at Chelski , I ‘ll still watch from afar the inter reaction and drama between him and Moanin’inho -should be fun !

  • Rupert Cook

    @Tommie Gun, a very sane post about footballers in general. All this loyalty nonsense is naive. Neither the players or clubs practice it.

    I imagine that if the requisite signings are not made to improve the team that our best players will again talk about plying their trade elsewhere. We’ve already heard Koscielny air his opinions on what players the club needs and if Ozil does not see good players or alternatively a marked improvement in the league and/or CL in a season or two he’ll be thinking of moving on too.

    Trouble with signing a player of Ozil’s stature is you have to manage his expectations too. He’s just seen his ex team mates win the CL, he’ll be expecting to win it himself in the next few years.

    I think we may regret passing up on Cesc but if we sign some excellent players the blow may be of little magnitude.

  • bob

    As some might recall, Cesc backheeled/”missed” that pass to Barfa in our CL loss. That video was once on view here at UA. It was part of the destruction (conscious or not) that the hamstrung Cesc-Dein was inflicting on AFC. His inner child return to the homeside battered us; his rejection by that homeside has battered him; his rejection by the former home (his Plan B) has battered him. So the battered boy goes to bed down with the Batterer-in-Chief: indeed, the troika of Dein-Cesc-Maureenho – La Familia Satanica – is possibly football’s most unholy trinity.

  • Shard

    Ugh.. I wish I hadn’t come back on this thread, but now I have I just need to say again, it is not a case of ‘loyalty’, and loyalty is not a dirty word anyway. Wenger has shown loyalty. Is it unconditional loyalty? Of course not. Do I expect unconditional loyalty from Cesc or any other player? Of course not. Anyone bringing up this loyalty thing as and absolute quality, and then making out that this is under dispute is using a straw man, and missing the point that Cesc’s behavior was extraordinary in its disrespect and pain that it caused Arsenal. Whether his motivation or even his actions were justified or not is subjective, but being of the opinion that they were not is not an unrealistic or fairytale (childish)opinion to hold.

    Rupert

    That is not a ‘trouble’ Ozil, on signing, said himself that Wenger wanting him earlier, and Wenger’s plans for the club are the reason he chose Arsenal (seemingly ahead of higher paying options like PSG) This is one of the reasons I am more confident that the club will seek to sign the players it needs. Of course these may not be the players some fans want, but (and I am paraphrasing a fellow blogger on another site), if Arsenal were run at the whims of its supporters, we’d be constantly buying players who were the current media darlings and sacking our manager every 6 months. In short Tottenham.

  • Tom

    Shard

    “Cesc’s behavior was extraordinary in its disrespect and pain that it caused Arsenal”

    Perhaps it was, perhaps it wasn’t. Unless you were privy to the confidential conversations between Arsen Wenger and Fabregas regarding the details of his eventual return to Barca, you are only speculating. Let’s assume his conduct was as you say “extraordinary”, but wasn’t his case also an extraordinary one ?

    Fabregas was from Barca’s La Masia and played there with players like Messi , Pique and others before Wenger signed him. We all knew he would be going back at some point , so no real outrage there. You just have a problem with the way he left, fair enough . I would say , show me another case of a footballer who left a club “well and honorably” under similar circumstances and I will agree with your criticism of Cesc.

    I don’t know what you do proffesionaly but I’m sure if you had worked with some people in the beginning of your career who had become the best in the World in their respective field , you would’ve done everything in your powers at a chance to work with them again , especially if that window of opportunity was open only for a few years.

    People who ridicule Cesc’s “Barca DNA” don’t know what they are talking about.

    As for not honoring the contract, I would argue it’s in the best interest of a club like Arsenal that their star players sign long term contracts and renew those contracts ( Webster Ruling)without actually intending on executing them as it offers more protection for the club ,and letting those contract run down or as some on here have called it “honoring” them , is actually the dumbest thing to do hence my original comment about Sagna and Flamini leaving on a free being bad for Arsenal.

  • finsbury

    “perhaps it was perhaps it wasn’t”

    Digging a hole there…

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01677/cescget_1677880c.jpg
    Dear reader, please notice the lack of any objection on the former Arsenal Captain’s face in these pictures.

    It’s not conjecture, there have been enough leaks and enough coverage of the issue: He went on strike, refused to go on tour, turned up, caused a stink…etc. etc. etc. Not even the player’s biggest admirers could pretend he didn’t do what he did at that time, unless…

    A disingenious and weak effort above.

  • finsbury

    Tried to link in highlights of Ozil against Portugal. Failed!

    Anyway. A great performance from one of the stars of the last World Cup. Who is an Arsenal player!
    The Groaners will Groan.