By Tony Attwood
Since we won the FA Cup that question has been more puzzling than ever.
It used to be that winning a trophy was doing well. But although the victory over Hull and the subsequent beating of Man C in the Charity Shield gave Mr Wenger some respite, it lasted little more than a week or two – if that.
Which really does raise the question – what does Mr Wenger, or whoever follows him, have to do to keep the aaa and their fellow travelling journalist colleagues off his back?
1. Win the league, defeating the oil billions of Man C and Chelsea, and the 30 years headstart on worldwide marketing that Man U had over Arsenal. That would most certainly be something. It is possible, but it is something that is going to take some extraordinary mix of input. A strong Premier League FFP would help us a lot – but for the moment it remains unclear if we are going to get that.
2. Win the Champions League – not only overcoming the oil billions of Man C and Chelsea, but the gas billions of any club Qatar throws money at and Real Mad with its seeming immunity from proper examination of its relationship with its local authority.
Fifa, of all people, have helped us a bit by taking on Barcelona’s appalling record with child transfers (so strongly lauded over the years in our national press incidentally), and Uefa has helped with FFP – but Man C did get their penalty reduced, and there is real uncertainty about Uefa’s approach to the multi-club ownership style of their board.
3. Win the league cup or FA Cup. But no. Seemingly that is not enough.
4. Stay in the Champions League. Again not enough given the endless tiresome commentary that fourth is not a trophy.
5. Become a dominant team playing with style. Well Arsenal were that in 2013 – we had the best record in that calendar year and certainly had the style – but that was clearly not enough, given the way the aaa narrative built up.
6. Signing big name players. This was a demand for a while – forgetting of course that our most successful players were signed when they were out of favour. Both Henry and Bergkamp came to Arsenal at times when their careers were hitting the buffers. But the attacks on Ozil show that big names and big spending are not enough. Alexis is a big name big cost hit, but I don’t hear Wenger getting any credit for this. The best I’ve heard of late is “imagine how bad Arsenal would be with out him”.
7. Develop young players. There we have been successful, but the criticism Ramsey took shows that this approach is not enough on its own. Ramsey, the Ox, Theo, Gibbs, Bellerin, Wilshere, Coquelin, Zelalem, Gnabry, Campbell, Martinez, Akpom all joined us young, but the criticism continues, so this is not enough, despite the fact that having 12 players who have come up through the club, in the first team of 30 or so players is very unusual.
8. Getting long winning runs. The 49 was a sensation, and might never be beaten. Another run like that however would not guarantee longevity for a manager – unless, as with Mr Wenger’s run, it also included winning the league.
9. Avoiding heavy defeats and lots of defeats. A heavy defeat loses the same number of points as a 1-0 defeat, but it seems to count for more these days.
10. Achieve things while not being affected by referee decisions. This is a hallmark of the aaa who tend to see the mentioning of increasing levels of referee bias against certain teams as making excuses.
So, working through it, it seems winning the Champions League or the Premier League is the only measure of success now. We’ve won the league 13 times in 109 years – the third highest achieving club in this regard. It seems whoever takes over next is going to have to up that ratio.
Of course it hasn’t always been like this. George Graham in his first season took Arsenal on a 10 match jaunt in which the club did not win a single game, and scored just two goals. But despite this, he ended his first season by being given a new five year contract.
The reason was that he won the league cup, and came fourth in the league and for a brief spell in his first season took the club to the top of the league. The story of that season is on the Arsenal History Society site.
But as we’ve seen none of this would be enough today.
That summer Graham brought in two new players – one from Leicester who were relegated that year, and one from Wimbledon – who had been signed by them when they were celebrating their rise from the fourth to the third division. Would that satisfy the aaa today? I doubt it. Which is unfortunate considering who they were.
My point is that by the exacting standards of today, George Graham’s success in his first year would not have been enough to get the aaa and the media off his back.
But then who would have been safe from the aaa? Herbert Chapman would have struggled, because he took five years to win the Cup (his first trophy) and six to win the league. But then in his seventh season Arsenal won nothing, and in his eighth season Arsenal were knocked out of the cup by Walsall. It was Chapman’s final FA Cup match.
As you’ll know if you have read your Arsenal history, the team were regularly booed after that, despite winning the league again.
So it goes on. It is now harder than it has ever been to win the league because of the fortunes that have been poured into Chelsea and Man C and because of the lack of strength shown by the Premier League in bringing their promised FFP regulations to fruition. But the demands on the manager imposed by the aaa and their journalist colleagues are now higher than ever: so much higher that I doubt that any of our managers of the past would have survived.
This is the problem that now besets the club. The aaa and the press have encouraged demands for regular success, and reduced the definition of success to winning one of two trophies, and they have done this at a time when the finances of football and the lack of rigiourous control of those finances have made it ever possible.
Ironically the only manager in the history of Arsenal since the first managerial appointment of Thomas Mitchell in 1897 who could survive this sort of pressure was… Arsene Wenger, who gave us the Double in his second season. (Bertie Mee is only other manager who came close, with a 7th, 9th and 4th and two defeats in league cup finals in his three seasons. George Graham in his second season gave us a sixth place in the league and defeat to Luton in the league cup final after winning the league cup in his first.)
So what we need is to sack Arsene Wenger and replace him with… Arsene Wenger.
Classic Untold
Groundhog day is here again and again and again
Premier League finances and the future of FFP
Not entirely sure this is a complete list, Tony. Perhaps some signs that the team is developing a consistent style of play, eliminating infuriating basic errors which seem to occur week after week, signs that we have some kind of a plan for when we don’t have the ball in terms of organisation and further signs that we do any practice whatsoever for both taking and defending set pieces so that all our corners don’t enter the opposition 18 yard area at chest height would all be signs that the manager is doing well. It takes a particularly rosy view on the last few years to state that these things are being achieved.
And I’m a staunch Wenger supporter………..
Clock End Rider, there is a book on the statistics of football, which for some reason I can’t lay my hands on immediately, which analyses some of these things, and which shows, for example, that lobbing the corner into the box is statistically ineffective. Indeed I recall the book pointing out that England is one of the few countries where the fans get excited by corners.
I might not have time to find it today, what with the drive to London etc, but I will come back to it when I do.
Students of
psychology will one day tell us the reason why for some supporters of football clubs, a scapegoat of permanent dissatisfaction is essential.
If the club is performing well it could do better. One player is earmarked for abuse because he once made a mistake.
The manager is a target from Day One.
He has signed either no-one or the wrong players. His tactics are poor.
If the team finish as champions by a mile, then the bile is levelled at ticket prices or even the cost of a
coffee in the ground.
Recognise anyone, folks…
Tony,
Nobody says the ball needs to be lobbed into the area. I believe it might be possible for highly trained sportsmen to be taught, via practice, to deliv3r the ball into areas in which other of our players are making runs. This is an accepted approach the world over. Real Madrid and Bayern Munich make use of it. The only thing that is certain is that driving a ball at chest height into the 18 yard box will only lead to the opposition removing the ball from an area in which the attacking team can score. I’m not proposing we make it our sole form of attack. But surely our apparent complete disavowal of its use seems wholly self defeating.
Tony, you make some very good points in your defense of Arsene, however, you’re conveniently glossing over the main reason many fans want to see him gone. That is that they no longer feel that he has the ability to go toe to toe with his biggest rivals in the league or in Europe. His record against his direct rivals for the title and the top 4 over the last decade is appalling and unfortunately has shown no sign of getting any better. Many fans just want the team to show the ability to challenge, a real challenge and not a challenge that subsides with a whimper as soon as the stakes get high.
Furthermore, many fans wish to see Arsene rectify the defensive mistakes that his teams have been making for close on 8 years now. e.g their weakness from set pieces, their continued vulnerability to the counter attack, not to mention 5-6 years of one of the worst fitness records I’ve seen in professional sports.
Arsene has had a very long time at the helm, money to fashion a team that can really compete at the top and whilst many would love to see him succeed, they no longer believe that he can.
Trust me the line between love and hate is a thin one and all of the so called AAA certainly loved Arsene Wenger at one time but after taking them to the promised land and promising them Arsenal would be back their again has been unable to fulfill his end of the bargain and shows little sign that he can do it again.
Fans want the perception that we can challenge the best, something which a club the stature of Arsenal should be doing. Why did all the pundits and ex-players show such disdain for our title challenge last season and didn’t think we would end up winning the title? Why, because all the perceived weaknesses of Arsenal from Wenger’s inability to beat the best, from the teams, perceived lack of tactical nous, from the teams continual ability to crumble under intense pressure at the top came true in devastating fashion.
There are other managers out there who could manage Arsenal to success, why people think that only Arsene could do what he’s done is beyond me. Many love stories come to an end eventually when the trust deteriorates-we just don’t trust Arsene anymore to deliver the biggest titles.
And one last point, most of the so called AAA’s appreciate and love what Wenger gave us as fans of such a great club but honestly just don’t feel he’s up to it anymore. Let him prove us wrong. I’d gladly eat humble pie.
On a side note-Gary Neville’s analysis of why Arsenal don’t do well on corners.
tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo_UMaxhwvg
For clarification, I am most definitely not an AAA member. Just an increasingly frustrated supporter.
As someone who absolutely appreciates and respects what our manager has done for our club, I recall be sat over highbury in 04 and my friend saying we are being spoilt, never a truer statement me have heard. Spoilt rotten by a genius of a manager. Then the stadium move and the big money arriving in football did the damage. He has worked miracles to keep us in top four, been very unlucky on occasion, think 07/08, but a certain Frenchman named Pat was asked Wengers greatest weakness and he said he some times trusts players to much. Probably our greatest ever central mid fielder told us so much with that statement. To go into the season having an ageing Arteta who’s legs have unfortunately slowed, he could still do a job at home to Burnley, and Flamini as holding mids was a terrible terrible decision. He did not strengthen where we most needed. This is why most arsenal fans I know now, and I’m not talking about those on site like just arsenal etc, feel it may be time to change. It’s very sad and it hurts cos I love the man but I can’t keep turning a blind eye, 99% of the footballing world knew we needed to strengthen and yet he chose not too. You can add to that it taking back cesc is almost criminal. Ian Wright had a few drinks and then tweeted someone has to be sacked for not bringing back cesc. It’s poor management Tony how we try to dress it up. Coyg
Have to agree with Clockend on this one, it’s getting tp the point I am saying, just give a goal kick as our corners hardly beat the first man.
For me, I am a realist and I know winning teh league in the current climate is near to impossible but let’s at least challenge. We have the means to do it but we see the same mistakes weekly.
If the current style of play of pass sideways, pass sideways and so one until we are pressured into a mistake or a back pass with the occasional fast break is by design, then no thanks. It annoys the piss out of me when we have the players who can play super fast one and two touch football laboriously pass the ball into blind alleys.
It annoys me that I panic every time there is a set piece around our box as there seems to be no direction, training on what to do or leadership and I expect to concede every time the ball is lobbed into our box.
Just these two things have been going on for a few seasons with no sign of change.Surely as an rsenal supporter, you want to see signs of continual improvement?
@ Will
You say you’re a realist and that winning the league in the current climate is a near impossibility. Sorry mate, we could and should have won the title last year. We never lost it because City & Chelsea have billion sat their disposal-we lost it because Arsene could not beat his direct rivals. Our title ambitions were crushed at Liverpool, Everton & Chelsea and that my friend had nothing to do with the money made available by sovereign states and oligarch billionaires.
I am a realist as when we make a transfer, it needs to be spot on pretty much every time but Chelsea and World City can have a more scatter gun approach and afford to lose £100m a season.
We have to have a tight squad and can’t have the two world class players in every position like World City as the wages would cripple us.
That also annoys me when teh squads of Chelsea and World City are applauded and the money is never mention, the fact the governing ody has had to re-right the rules because of financial doping is never mebtions.
That said, the defensive erros that constantly show their face and the slow style of pass pass pass pass lose ball is down to the manager.
Arsenal are the second highest scorers or headers this season. It seems for some all their ire is based on the latest defeat and that poor performances are used as evidence to support their claims, while completely ignoring good performances,. For instance, Arsenal had been on a good run until the Saints game. But all I’ve read is how terrible Szczesny, Debuchy, per and Chambers are. Completing erasing the victories and good performances. We played two hard fought games in quick succession, showing plenty fight determination and strong will to win, basically using the same players due to injuries and Girouds senseless suspension.
Because the PL fixtures are drawn up by fuckwits, us and a few other teams had to play two away games in a row, against tough opposition and a London derby, while others had two cushy home ties (Man City had two such games, yet we’re lucky they won one of them).
So, let’s take the games in context with some perspective and stop having a meltdown after every defeat.
Red and dreadful
That is bollocks.
Sex arer you saying it is now not the ref’s but the game planners fault?
Dex
Care to expound on “what” is bollocks?
We hVe had seasons in the past decade where we have had great records against other top four teams, yet our recod vs lower teams was poor. Simply stating we’ve been shit vs the Mancs etc for a decade is wrong.
And we lost the league last year due to injuries and the club not strengthening in January. We were in the title race because of the manager by the way.
On the oil money subject, much oil money did Porto get, or Ajax etc get to win the CL?
I know i am not and I am sure most are not asking for Wenger’s head. What we want is for him to rectify the constant mistakes.
Who remembers Tony Adams taking change when we were facving set peices? Screaming at players, dragging players into popsition. Do we see that leadership today
No Will I aint, have a brain mate and try not to follow the herd. Of either extreme!!
I am looking at our results over the Xmas period and saying that we didn’t do too badly considering. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t expect better, just don’t see the need to throw the toys out the pram or see that defeat as evidence of impending doom.
If we can sign a couple of defensive minded players in January and sort the injured out, we can still have a good season.
Will
Our defensive record last season was good (equal clean sheets with the ultra defensive chavs by the way). I agree THIS season, we’ve been poorer in terms of defence. Per has lost form, and we’ve had to use others at CB and RB due to injuries. Let’s see how we get on when we’ve had our strongest back 4 for a good run of games, not just one.
Having a strong defensive minded midfielder in front of the back would also help, in my option, as would having our best attacking players available, because then, presumably, we’d be scoring more goals, which would take the pressure off.
It’s not the fact we lost against Southampton for me, it was the lacklustre display and there have been to many of those lately. Before every game, i ask the team to start fast and play from the whistle with pace and passion and put the opposition on the back foot but all to much we are the team on the backfoot, letting far lesser teams to take the inititive and pressure us on the ball.
We need to start with fast one and two touch football but we don’t, we play the slow pass pass pass pass game and this allows the opposition to play a high pressure game on us.
Will. We did that vs Rangers and West Ham. I just think they were knackered due to lack of available players. Still, in the Saints game, we should have scored first but the forwards messed up, which puts pressure on the team to keep a clean sheet. Which they clearly didn’t do, mainly due to individual unforced errors.
I agree, if we carry on turning up as lethargic as we have done, then things need to be looked at. That is why, for me, this window is soooo imporTnt.
We need quality additions.
Gouresh, as I suspect you jolly well know, I am speaking about the oil money today. If you want to debate why we didn’t win certain things in the past, you will probably find a suitable article on the history site where you can join in the debate.
I also think the warm up needs to be looked at. If we are starting games at walking pace, that is either team talk driven or warm up driven. Our players need to be ready for war at the whistle.
Dex
Since Arsenal last won the league:
Vs Chelsea – Won – 4; Draw – 4; loss – 15
Vs Utd. – Won – 5; Draw – 6; Loss – 17
We have a very good record against Liverpool and did against City until their oil money came in.
Our record against the top 4 since 2009/10 is as follows:
WON – 7, DRAW – 4, LOST 18
Maybe there might be the odd season since 2004, where we have a winning record against the top 4.
Who’s responsible for not strengthening the squad in January? Who has been responsible for overseeing our fitness & health regimes for the last decade?
What are your explanations for the 6-0, 5-1, 3-0, 6-3 defeats we received at the hands of the other clubs in the top 5. WE had a full team for the 6-3. We were missing Ramsey, Walcott & Koz for the 5-1. We were missing Rasmey, Walcott & Arteta for the 6-0. We were missing Ramsey, Walcott & Kopz for the 3-0. I’ll give you this – injuries were an issue last year,as they are this year and they have been for a while now. However, to blame injuries for the manner in which our teams were destroyed by City, Chelsea, Liverpool & Everton is being a bit weak imo.
Red does make a great point. We were once warriors, now we are flat track bullies.
Tony
I’m sorry but, we should never downplay the effect of these factors:
1. Oil money
2. Referees
3. Injuries
The AAA can moan all they want, until/unless they acknowledge the above, they’ll wear the AAA badge indefinitely. Did people even notice that we (had to) play Cocquelin and Chamber together in CM, against a top 4 contender? Not only have they not played together, but their combo has never played with that defence before! But we still expected a “quick, fluid” game, sigh! Our performance in the xmas break trumps the log leaders’ by far!
! Did people even notice that we (had to) play Cocquelin and Chamber together in CM, against a top 4 contender? Not only have they not played together, but their combo has never played with that defence before!”
And that is the fault of:
The PGMOL
The Ref’s
The media
Santa Claus
The Baby Jesus
Management for not having adequate cover
The tooth fairy
You choose.
Dex, good to hear you say we need quality additions, though Arsene said the other week if every one is fit we don’t need to buy. This is what frustrates most fans so much, I know he is just giving a response to press so pinch of salt etc, the difficulty I have these days is that I believe he believes that statement when the vast vast majority of fans of all teams, all the pundits and media can see we need quality additions to really compete. This is not a reaction to one defeat, this has been a few seasons identifying on the way to games during games and after games that we need dmf and better than bfg at centre back, he got dropped on way to Germany winning World Cup, I like him but he is not good enough to win titles.
I’m sorry but the excuses you guys roll out to explain Arsene’s inability to challenge the elite is nauseating. How long are you going to hide behind the “money” issue. Arsenal have money, they have the 2nd largest stadium in the UK. They are one of the world’s most valuable sport franchises-they are wealthy beyond imagination! They have more cold, hard cash in the bank than most of the EPL put together! They charge the fans the highest prices in WORLD football (on the assumption that Europe has the highest football match ticket prices). You’ve been conditioned to believe that we’re poor little Arsenal whilst the clubs swell it’s coffers and players and executives make millions. Arsenal is a VERY rich club! We just bought Ozil & ALexis FFS.
I don’t hate Wenger but I’d wish some of you would wake up, smell the coffee and realise he ain’t that GREAT anymore. Can he do what did before-I really, really hope so but I doubt it.
By the way it has been nice to have a refreshing debate without AAA being thrown at everyone who disagrees. Balance is a wonderful thing 🙂
Fred
January 4, 2015 at 11:32 am
By the way it has been nice to have a refreshing debate without AAA being thrown at everyone who disagrees. Balance is a wonderful thing 🙂
Sir, you win today’s internet.
Red, the only issue I hve with the money is, Chavski and World City can throw money at their squads and not worry about dude plus that can have 25 world class players without teh need to fill out the squad with youths and reserves as the their money makes the wages budget redundent.
Will
we’re so rich we can throw tens of millions at Abou Diaby and not expect a return. How many millions did we throw at Bendter, at Arshavin, at Podolski for these players not play a significant part in our team. How many millions did we throw at Santos & Denilson, at Cygan, at a whole list of others. We’ve wasted big money along the way, money that could have been used in a ore efficient manner to enhance our teams chances of doing well. All teams make mistakes but don’t think we’ve not wasted huge chunks of resources on duds throughout the last 10 years.
We must be the only fans in the world who celebrate a balance sheet and not a trophy! I’m an accountant-I understand and appreciate that the club needs to be self-sustaining and run in a prudent fashio but we’ve become way to wrapped up in finances and not football.
Red it simply comes down to budget, we have one we have to adhere to, those two teams have an unlimited one.
I get what you are saying and I agree, we need to spend and spend big in January and Summer to make this squad competitive but, we can’t compete financially against those two. Hence the FFP which World City seem to have found a way round.
I have followed the Arsenal for 44 years now, and frankly,in my lifetime, we have never had it so good, and all of it is down to Mr Wenger and the foresight of the previous board.
however, there seems to be something wrong with the structure/tactics/organisation of this particular squad, (which i think is the best since, though not as good as, obviously) the team of ten years ago.
Is it just a case of tweaking with perhaps a couple of strategic signings to rectify the current malaise?…..
I suspect Mr Wenger know rather a lot more about these things than we do.
To all the “fans” calling for his head – be careful what you wish for – just look at Liverpool/Leeds/Spurs.
The reason that the FA Cup win only gave Wenger some breathing room is because it was the first trophy in 9 years. Through those years Arsenal fans have had to suffer humiliation after humiliation in big games and Wengers credit achieved in the 7 year spell from 1997 has been eroded away. It is more than trophies though, the ridiculous defending can only lead to questions about Wengers ability as a manager.
Personally I think Wenger is past the point of no return. It would take something amazing over the next 3 years to recover the status he once had.
Anyway folks
Lets hope we beat Hull today, Arsene gets his name sung in the stadium and we go on a winning run and Arsene can prove his detractors wrong. Because make no mistake, regardless of what excuses those in favour of the great man staying make, if he doesn’t make his team more competitive against the better teams and start winning trophies again, his great legacy runs the risk of being destroyed in the eyes of many, many fans. And the discontent is only growing. Excuse the cliched analogy but he runs the risk of being another great prize fighter taking one fight too many.
COYG!
Personally speaking I think we have needed a midfielder like Gilberto since, well, the Brazilian left! I also feel the loss of form and injury proneness of Vermealen has impacted on our competitiveness. The heVy defeats away from home were hard to take, although the 6-3 at Man city was a lot more equal than the others and we had plenty of chances.
Then again, we remained unbeaten at home for over a year, but I don’t see anyone mentioning that stT. No, red or dread is falling into the trap of just being concerned with finding fault, in order to justify his over simplistic desire to get rid of the manager..
A manager who despite all his failings has worked wonders given the context and circumstances. But no, let’s not bother taking petty stuff like context into account. Let’s throw in cliched doomed shit like Diaby and his wages into the mix! You do know players have insurance right?
Then you use Arshavin as proof of something, completely overlooking the fact it’s ‘fans’ like you who clamoured and demanded Wenger sign a big name player, then when it doesn’t work out as you hoped, you slate the manager for ‘wasting’ the clubs finite resources! Priceless!
Your ‘arguments’ ain’t coherent, more like a scattergun really.
I think we need improvements, and this is an important month. But you have actually proven Wills point; every signing is a gamble, some work out, some don’t. Look at the stick Mesut gets! Pathetic.
As much as I want Wenger to go balls out and make signings, it’s also true that some of our supporters need to up their game too, instead of constantly whining and regurgitating media fed tabloid garbage.
I asked weeks ago, if not Wenger, then who? I honestly don’t think there is a better manager out there for us at the moment.
That said, we are missing a couple of peices of the puzzle.
A leaderat the back in the Adams mould.
A dominant midfielder in the Vieira role who can break play up at our 18 and within a few stride, be at their 18.
And yes, a Gilberto type who can sit in front of the midfield and act as a shield.
We also miss height a lot of the time. Look at the team we all hark back to.
4 centre backs all over 6 feet
3 midfielders all over 6 feet
3 attackers all over 6 feet
l0 powerful men who could play the skill game or the dirty game. Yes, we have evolved our game but the league hasn’t evolved and still requires power and finesse to win.
where did all these sewer aaa sprout from? mass cloning?
Dex
With due respect, you have no idea what type of fan I am. In fact I’m a fan that has defended Wenger with vigor & intensity on other forums for years but unfortunately have finally run out of steam. However, I just cannot overlook the many faults that he has, faults that I think are holding our team back from challenging the elite for the big prizes in football.
Just so you don;t think I’m scattergun. Here a re my reaons
1. He cannot teach his teams to defend consistently well enough to win titles. If you don’t think that’s correct look at our goals conceded record over the last 6 years and then look at it when we last won the league. Furthermore, the suicidal& comical mistakes that we’ve become used show no sign of slowing down. At times our defensive ineptitude reaches ridiculous proportions-the word embarrassing comes to mind.
2. His tactical approach against the better teams in the league and Europe has been found wanting for several years now.
3. He’s been unable to rectify our terrible injury record , a problem that has beset the club for many years now.
4. His teams always seem to be 2-3 player short of what is needed to really challenge for the title.
We remained unbeaten at home for over year and that contributed to us winning the FA Cup, great, but most of the elite teams have extremely good home records.
I haven’t seen you participate in this argument with any objective evidence. The only ‘fact” you state is that “fans’ like you who clamoured and demanded Wenger sign a big name player, then when it doesn’t work out as you hoped, you slate the manager for ‘wasting’ the clubs finite resources! ”
That isn’t even a fact.
“A fact is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is, whether it can be demonstrated to correspond to experience.”
Much like most fans who resolutely defend Wenger in the face of increasing evidence that he isn’t cutting it at the very top of the coaching game, you fail to back up your argument with cold hard facts or instead use evidence of his greatness 10 years ago.
I don’t want to engage in a slinging match with you but your arguments are wishy washy at best.
You say the 6-3 defeat was closer than the score suggested-yes it could have been 8-7. We still conceded 6 goals mate and it could have been more. We were as open as a hooker’s legs on a Saturday night.
Here’s a fact for you-he’s never beaten Mourinho. Even bloody Gus Poyet has beaten Mourinho& he’s done it twice!
Imagine this man calls Arsene a specialist in failure then on Arsene’s 1000th game in charge beats him 6-0! What is that, what is the excuse for that. It was a performance of such tactical ineptitude, that most watching it were embarrassed and felt sorry for Arsene. And this was coming off a 5-1 against Liverpool.
Very good article. Tony. The book you were thinking of is ‘The Numbers Game’ (I happen to be reading it – highly recommended).
@RedandDread I can only applaud your post at 1:33
You have nailed the issues with Wenger to the mast and I agree with you. The only point I would question is point 3. I am not sure the injury record is down to him. To be honest it is baffling as to why we get so many injuries, it could be training, it could be the nature of our game in the PL…
The 6-0 against Chelsea after Wenger was called a specialist in failure by Mourinho is probably the most humiliating day I can remember as an Arsenal fan. Even worse than the 8-2 against Utd where Wenger went into a season without the signings he needed despite a terrible injury list and then had to buy 7 players in a week to try and rectify the situation having had all summer to sort the issues out.
Va Cong
January 4, 2015 at 1:02 pm
where did all these sewer aaa sprout from? mass cloning?
Lazy.
We remained unbeaten at home for over year and that contributed to us winning the FA Cup, great, but most of the elite teams have extremely good home records.
——
So, you admit Arsenal are an elite team? Great news, there, way to “support” the team!
“1. He cannot teach his teams to defend consistently well enough to win titles.” I would disagree. We went through a rough patch a few seasons ago and AW ecided to change things by putting in 2 DM types, which resulted in us going on a 22 unbeaten run. I think there’s masses of room for improvement ATM, as Ive already said.
2. His tactical approach against the better teams in the league and Europe has been found wanting for several years now.
Bayern Munich and Dortmumd away, not yeasr ago either.
“3. He’s been unable to rectify our terrible injury record , a problem that has beset the club for many years now” Sheeeesh, that one doesnt even deserve a reasoned reply. Lets blame him for the weather while we are at it.
4. His teams always seem to be 2-3 player short of what is needed to really challenge for the title.
I tend to agree with that one. But the reasons for it are many and we aint got a clue what happens behind the scenes.
“Much like most fans who resolutely defend Wenger in the face of increasing evidence that he isn’t cutting it at the very top of the coaching game, you fail to back up your argument with cold hard facts or instead use evidence of his greatness 10 years ago.” And there it is,. the assumption I am resolutely defending the manager??? I am simply supporting my club and showing respect to the bloke who has been at the helm for so long, who if it werent for him, we’d be like the spuds, everton, or Villa. But no, lets try and pigeon hole me. You are doomer, pure and simple. Your “facts” for what they are worth, just emphasise your desperate need to validate your hatred of the man.
FFS I have claerly stated how I think he has fucked up, but that isnt enough for doomers like you is it? No, I have to hate him and want him gone.
Its so called Gooners like you that embarrass this club, not the myopic Wengerites who you have tried to lump me in with because you that suits your pathetic point of view.
jayram and redor dread for that matter;
See., this is what fucks me off; You whione and whine about getting done 6 nil to the chavs away from home, over and over again (I was there and at the 6-3 to city, it fucking hurt, but jesus it was a single game and 3 points lost) YET, the fact is what did the chavs win last season??? Fuck all and what about, erm, Arsenal? Oh yeah, the FA cup!
Christ, you ungrateful whining babies.
Dex
I’ll just have to continue to embarrass the club with my opinions then and as much as I wish to have reason to change will more than likely have to maintain my pathetic P.O.V.
All the best to you to Dex.
Just to address your points though before I sign off.
1. His defense is not good enough to win a title-it may be good enough to win a top 4 trophy.
Goals conceded:
2014/15 – 25 Leader – 19 (to date)
2013/14 – 41 Winner – 37
2012/13 – 37 Winner – 43
2011/12 – 49 Winner – 29
2010/11 – 43 winner – 37
2009/10 – 41 Winner – 32
2008/09 – 37 Winner – 24
2007/08 – 31 Winner – 22
2003/04 – 26
2001/02 – 36
1997/98 – 33
2. Dortmund away was a particularly back to the walls victory that we all very proud of. One swallow doesn’t make a Summer. The Bayern Munich match was quite a surprise because we were sliced apart in the 1st leg at home. A great win but most knew that Bayern had that tie in the bag already.
3. Why is he not held responsible for our injury record. He appointed the team in charge (with the exception of Shad Forysth) of maintaining our players fitness. I stand corrected but I believe we have had the worst overall injury record over the last 5-6 years in the premier league. As head of all things football at Arsenal, why has this not been addressed and why are the people in charge of that particular department still in charge?
Why are my views not supporting my club. If I feel something is wrong and I’m making my opinion clear, why is that supporting my club any less? So because he’s been at the helm for so long I have to show him respect. I respect him for what he has achieved not for being a manager for 18 years. You say don’t try and pidgeon hole me and then immediately say I am a “doomer, pure & simple”-who’s pidgeon holing who Dex. How do you know we would be like Spuds, Villa or Everton without Wenger-you can only assume or make a guess that we might be like those clubs.
Arsenal have a great infrastructure in place, an infrastructure that Wenger has a great deal responsibility for. However, imo I sincerely doubt that he has the managerial ability to make the best use of that to push on and challenge the elite teams for the major trophies. And yes, I consider Arsenal are an elite team. Considering them an elite team has nothing to do with my level of support.
We must ban Red and Dread , his thoughts provoke consideration .
Anyway Hull today must be there worst nightmare draw , can’t see them being up for it , expecting a comfortable win 2- 3. Nil .
Ah, the notorious jayramfootball has been posting his AAA crap here again. Please ignore him people. We know for a fact that he wishes for Arsenal to lose badly in important games so that Arsene Wenger can get sacked.
With hesitation of being labelled an AAA.
“2. His tactical approach against the better teams in the league and Europe has been found wanting for several years now.
Bayern Munich and Dortmumd away, not yeasr ago either.”
That’s two games out of how many?
Many ‘true ‘ fans and supporters on today here !
Just ‘keeping ‘ it real , if you know what I’m saying !
Up the Gunners !
http://www.dilbert.com/strips/2014-12-28/
To Will at 11:24
Ok, I’ll play along:
And that is the fault of:
1. The PGMOL – Yes, a lot of our injuries are caused by them. (Wilshere vs untd???)
2. The Ref’s – See above
3. The media – Yep, they manage to influence the likes of you!
4. Santa Claus – I guess that’s one way of referring to sheik/abramovich, what with their deep pockets/socks…
5. The Baby Jesus – With our bad luck with (some) injuries, there might be a need for devine intervention!
6. Management for not having adequate cover – You mean 5 players per position? We played some games with our 3rd choice goalie, remember???
7. The tooth fairy – Maybe! Remember Arterta lost a tooth during a game vs hull last season?
Any more???
Wengerson, you sir are a Tottenham fan in disguise.
D,,,,,,luded.
One of my recurring nightmares is that one of ‘then’ gets it really right and makes so much money that he goes onto buy the club ; sacks the board ,the manager , all the deadwood players and hires /buys everyone he really needs and makes the Arsenal the greatest club ever .
Strange as it may sound ,it really could happen you know !
Now I ‘m really , really worried !
“1. Win the league, defeating the oil billions of Man C and Chelsea, and the 30 years headstart on worldwide marketing that Man U had over Arsenal. That would most certainly be something. It is possible, but it is something that is going to take some extraordinary mix of input. A strong Premier League FFP would help us a lot – but for the moment it remains unclear if we are going to get that.”
I know one club that managed to win the title against the oil money and they did it with Giroud as their main striker. Truth to be told, Montpellier didn’t enjoy consistent success – after all, like none of the French champions between the end of Olympique Lyon’s reign and the start of the one of Zlatan Ibrahimović’s PSG – but when your team have spine and character, you are on the half way of reaching your goal.
“2. Win the Champions League – not only overcoming the oil billions of Man C and Chelsea, but the gas billions of any club Qatar throws money at and Real Mad with its seeming immunity from proper examination of its relationship with its local authority.”
Let’s not forget Bayern. Then again, our best Champions’ League campaign coincided with the worst league campaign under Wenger. We knocked out Real Mad, Juventus and Villarreal without conceding a goal in six matches. Had Thierry scored from either of his chances at 1:0, we would have won the trophy. Or if Belletti hadn’t chosen that game to score one of his rare goals.
What I’m trying to say is, at this moment at least, the Champions’ League trophy looks easier to win than the Premier League one. In Champions’ League you don’t have Mike Riley, Mike Dean, Anthony Taylor and others’ butchers of football. From the moment you progress to The Knockout Stage, all you need is a string of seven good games. In Premiership, you can end up empty-handed with 89 points due to worse goal-difference than the one of your rivals (Manure 2011-12). If Arsenal managed to reach the Final without conceding a goal playing Emmanuel Eboue, Kolo Toure, Phillip Senderos and Mathieu Flamini at the back, everything is possible.
“3. Win the league cup or FA Cup. But no. Seemingly that is not enough.”
It’s a good result, no question about it.
“4. Stay in the Champions League. Again not enough given the endless tiresome commentary that fourth is not a trophy.”
It’s not exactly black and white. Staying in Champions’ League is undoubtedly very important and a great feat from two aspects: 1) financial and 2) attractiveness to top players. In a way, I believe there is a similar reason why Luis Suarez left Liverpool (and had wanted to leave Liverpool for Arsenal before that) and Alexis Sanchez opted for Arsenal and not Liverpool this summer: the continuity of Champions’ League appearances. Suarez managed to qualify for Champions’ League with Liverpool for the first time but never had a chance to play a match in that competition for them. He was busy during his first season-and-half (unsuccessfully) trying to avoid ending above David Moyes’ Everton. Alexis knew that Liverpool don’t have a continuity and that regular Champions’ League experience can get only at the Emirates.
Now, the other part of the medal, as we say in Bosnia. The fourth-place-trophy – aside from not-so-funny-anymore memes – doesn’t exist. It’s not something that you put in your trophy room. It can be – on a long run – a conditio sine qua non to win something that you will eventually put in your trophy room (e.g. if we hadn’t won the fourth place in 2012-13, we wouldn’t have signed Özil in summer 2013; if we hadn’t had Özil, we wouldn’t have won FA Cup as Özil was instrumental in our victories over Liverpool and Everton respectively) but it’s not a trophy per se.
“5. Become a dominant team playing with style. Well Arsenal were that in 2013 – we had the best record in that calendar year and certainly had the style – but that was clearly not enough, given the way the aaa narrative built up.”
We can discuss whether we were playing with style. We had the best record – that’s for sure – but our defensive record from both our run-in and our first half of the last league campaign is what was the most important piece of the puzzle.
Now, here comes the part why I’m disappointed with our campaign so far: I had expected more. We replaced our French right full-back with a newer, improved model. We added pace to our attack. We signed a world-class striker/winger to relieve the pressure from our weakest defensive spot last term (left full-back). We signed a goalkeeper that impressed me during World Cup. Instead of improving and adding that extra-gear to our game that we didn’t have last term, we lost shape. Not only that we haven’t improved but we have been twelve points behind ourselves from the last term at this date.
“6. Signing big name players. This was a demand for a while – forgetting of course that our most successful players were signed when they were out of favour. Both Henry and Bergkamp came to Arsenal at times when their careers were hitting the buffers. But the attacks on Ozil show that big names and big spending are not enough. Alexis is a big name big cost hit, but I don’t hear Wenger getting any credit for this. The best I’ve heard of late is “imagine how bad Arsenal would be with out him”.”
Both Özil and Alexis have been massive statements by both Arsenal and Arsene Wenger that we won’t be defensive anymore when it comes to the transfers.
“7. Develop young players. There we have been successful, but the criticism Ramsey took shows that this approach is not enough on its own. Ramsey, the Ox, Theo, Gibbs, Bellerin, Wilshere, Coquelin, Zelalem, Gnabry, Campbell, Martinez, Akpom all joined us young, but the criticism continues, so this is not enough, despite the fact that having 12 players who have come up through the club, in the first team of 30 or so players is very unusual.”
Agreed but one of the criticism Wenger has been subjected to this term is related to Joel Campbell’s lack of appearances on the pitch. He had an excellent World Cup, did well against Benfica but was a regular bench-warmer this term (with very few unsuccessful cameos though).
“8. Getting long winning runs. The 49 was a sensation, and might never be beaten. Another run like that however would not guarantee longevity for a manager – unless, as with Mr Wenger’s run, it also included winning the league.”
I think it’s a safe thing to say that nobody can expect Wenger or anyone else to repeat the feat of The 49’ers as I like to call them. The thing is, we haven’t had a run of three victories in the league this term. It’s a shame given the fact that we haven’t had such a crazy schedule like we had had last term (e.g. Chelsea, Liverpool, Borussia, Manure – in space of eleven days).
“9. Avoiding heavy defeats and lots of defeats. A heavy defeat loses the same number of points as a 1-0 defeat, but it seems to count for more these days.”
This was – in a way – confirmed by Arsene Wenger. In one of my earlier discussions with Bootoomee, I claimed that our heavy defeats against Manchester City, Liverpool and Chelsea respectively had a side-effect in a way that we approached the games that followed the respective defeats with a hand-brake. In each of the following games at home (Chelsea, Manure, Swansea), we were held to a draw. Bootoomee disagreed with me. However, Wenger himself confirmed that the memories of the defeat at Anfield last year were one of the reasons for our poor display this term. Now, if that sort of defeat haunts you a year after, imagine what it does to you only a week later.
Not to mention that – given the rules about the goal-difference being the first tie-breaker – margin of the defeat can have an impact on the final table. Manchester Oilers had beaten Manure 6:1 and 1:0 in 2011-12 – plus six for them, minus six for Manure = plus twelve. They won the league on a goal-difference thanks to the better goal-difference for eight goals.
“10. Achieve things while not being affected by referee decisions. This is a hallmark of the aaa who tend to see the mentioning of increasing levels of referee bias against certain teams as making excuses.”
It’s true that the referees in England are either incompetent or biased (the latter seems to be more correct answer as their incompetence would have been equally shared). What Martin Atkinson (and his linesmen) did against us last term at the Etihad was surreal. It looked like that match from the Bosnian league between Orašje and Zrinjski during which the manager of the latter decided to withdraw his players from the pitch. It can be found on YouTube.
The real question is:
has the manager done everything that he could have done?
Has he addressed to the problem he has only recently admitted – that we have a lack of physical appearance in the midfield?
Has he noticed that we have had problems after every international tournament to repeat the level of performances from the season before EURO/WC?
..them , ..them ..!
@bootoomee
Still attacking people eh? Thats all you seem to do, never an opinion or view from you just attacking others. There was a very good thread on this forum written by Tony that you should re-read.
@Jay. It’s easier for some to shout AAA than talk with a reasons voice.
jayramfootball,
At least I am not fervently posting at some Internet sewers hoping for Arsenal to lose important matches badly so that a manager that I hate would get sacked. That IS you. It’s your garb, wear it with pride, you 2-faced hypocrite.
Will,
You poor poor baby. Now you have a friend on whose shoulder you can cry on. Good for you.
By the way, do you also post comments on other site hoping for Arsenal to lose games? Because that is what your new BFF is known for.
Please someone, delete Booteemee as he seems intent on just starting rows and not actually debating anything.
This post was brought to you by the numbers 1 and nil and the letters A A A .
Will
You madam, are AAA in full force.
T……rolling.
Will,
I am seriously your claim of following Arsenal since the ’70s. You reason like a child. A not very bright one.
Will,
I am now seriously doubting your claim of following Arsenal since the ’70s. You reason like a child. A not very bright one.
The thing that makes the Wenger/Arsenal situation so unique is the consistency. I think it’s pretty fair to say that what we’ve seen from the club for basically the past decade has been acceptable season after acceptable season, with no real remarkable ones in the mix. The club hasn’t failed to meet the minimum expectations during any of those seasons, but FA Cup win aside, hasn’t really had a single instance where they superseded that minimum since the undefeated title.
It’s hard to make a real case that Wenger has underperformed during the past ten years, but it’s also very easy to understand why fans would be looking for change without any real standout moments in that time aside from last season’s FA Cup.
RedandDread claims to be an accountant, source posted 11.57 am.
IMPOSSIBLE!
“we’re so rich we can throw tens of millions at Abou Diaby and not expect a return.” Source 11.57 am
Obviously the Insurance kicked in, because of the injuries.
No further comment is required.
Otherwise, quite interesting how certain people develop (?) an opinion.
Bootoomee
Why don’t you comment on articles? All you seem to do is childishly attack people on EVERY thread. You make yourself look stupid and vindictive. Sort yourself out and stop your constant dribble.
Jayramfootball,
Why should I be commenting on the article when I could be telling the world what kind of 2-faced weasel and Arsenal hater you are when you think that no one around here can see what you post?
Nah, I prefer to follow you around everywhere you post on Untold to tell everybody who read your comment that you want Arsenal to lose games badly in order for Arsene Wenger to get sacked. Those were your words. You won them. Be proud of the fact that you are a back-biting hypocrite.
And you have the nerve to call anyone “vindictive”? I don’t think that you know the meaning of the word or maybe you just lack self-awareness. There is nothing more vindictive than wishing that the team that you claim to love lose badly so that the manager that you hate can get sacked.
I know it hurts you to see me follow you around stating what you did but it’s my pet project to let every Untold reader know who you are. And I am loving it!
Bootoomee
You do make me laugh. You don’t even realise how utterly ridiculous you are making yourself look. Still, very flattered that I am able to completely consume you.
Hurt me? Hahaha. As I have said before I keep the same user name on all forums I post on so am not hard to find lol. I am LOVING your predictable responses.
The entire premise of Tony’s article is that Wenger is being judged on a sliding scale that has no fixed point. We can compare Wenger to our past top managers like Chapman and Graham BUT there are so many variables that any comparison can never be like for like and therefore no comparison at all. We can compare his record to José’s or SAF’s, both of which are superior in trophies won BUT they never faced the challenges of injuries, money shortages, questionable officiating (both have been the beneficiaries of that) constant media harassment, fickle fans, etc.
On top of that we have grandiose and hyperbolic statements like RedandDread claiming we threw ¨millions¨at Abou diaby or others who spout equally egregious nonsense, all to support their anti-Wengerian bias and agenda. Ultimately Wenger will NEVER get a fair and impartial review of his 18 years at the Arsenal, and as far as I can see, he doesnt care in the least. Unlike his critics, he just gets on with the job, doing his best with what he has, currently it is a team bereft of 8 core players, having to rely on 7 youth players and facing the usual officiating nightmare from the PGMOL and the usual brutal ¨rugby¨ tactics from far too many teams.
Those who want to see Wenger leave, please spend your energies in telling us who we realistically can get to come to the Arsenal, ready to take a media beating in short order, aaa ceaseless criticism after his first loss or draw, and handle all the injury and officiating shite Wenger has so effectively managed since 2005!
@omgarsenal
It is always difficult to choose a next manager. It’s easy to say ‘get rid of Wenger’ but just as easy to say ‘who would we bring in’.
Wenger himself was completely unknown by the vast majority of football fans prior to joining Arsenal, so I think the question of ‘who could replace Wenger’ is not a good one.
Whether you believe that Wenger has underachieved in the last decade and should be moved on, as I do, or are a staunch Wenger supporter, it doesn’t matter. He WILL be gone in the next 2-3 years.
It is up to the board to select the right manager for the future and it is their responsibility to get it right.
As for Diaby, the comment by Red was totally true and not hyperbole. We have paid Diaby millions of pounds and got almost nothing back from him. He should have been sold , or just released, years ago.
The problem with this discussion is that only Arsenal seem to get Refs from Hell like the one at Stoke where we lost. Or the year before the first game of the year against Villa! And this is not just one or two games in a year, it is a consistent pattern. So the FA cup was won – even though it was clear the ref was doing all he could to prevent Arsenal from winning. The Refs from Hell are responsible for a good portion of the injuries that have clipped Arsenal’s wings over the past 10 years. Why? They officiate so that the opponents can use force (kick and push and be aggressive) but Arsenal players can’t.
Manu won the league with the help of the refs. Arsenal will only win the league if they can beat the refs too! The EPL is disgusting!
Just a quick one for the WKB’s If you had to pick one option from the 2 below which would it be??
1.Carry on down the path we are on and never win the league never win the champions league but maybe win the odd cup.
2.Uss some of our massive wealth from our 2 BILLIONAIRE shareholders like other clubs and have a CHANCE of winning the league and champions league???
Two of ‘them’ are in a rented boat and catch an unusually large number of trout in a secluded cove.
As they start back to the marina, one reaches over with his felt-tip pen and marks an X on the starboard bow.
“I want to make sure we can find this spot again tomorrow,” he explained.
“Idiot,” his friend replied, “what makes you think we’ll get the same boat?”
One of the reasons I enjoy this site is that ‘they’ just keep me in stitches with their garbage !And its addictive !
http://treasure.diylol.com/uploads/post/image/329930/resized_sixth-sense-meme-generator-i-hear-stupid-people-they-keep-calling-me-they-won-t-leave-me-alone-9a7996.jpg
Lost in translation …
This fundamentalist Christian couple felt it important to own an equally fundamentally Christian pet. So, they went shopping.
At a kennel specializing in this particular breed, they found a dog they liked quite a lot. When they asked the dog to fetch the Bible, he did it in a flash. When they instructed him to look up Psalm 23, he complied equally fast, using his paws with dexterity. They were impressed, purchased the animal, and went home (piously, of course).
That night they had friends over. They were so proud of their new fundamentalist dog and his major skills, they called the dog and showed off a little.
The friends were impressed, and asked whether the dog was able to do any of the usual dog tricks, as well. This stopped the couple cold, as they hadn’t thought about “normal” tricks.
Well, they said, “let’s try this out.”
Once more they called the dog, and they clearly pronounced the command, “Heel!”
Quick as a wink, the dog jumped up, put his paw on the man’s forehead, closed his eyes in concentration, and bowed his head.
Could someone ever get addicted to counseling? If so, how could you treat them? Don ?
Tony,ur reply to Clock End Rider at 9:12 to me is actually an indictment on Arsene.If we shouldn’t expect our team to score from corners, we shouldn’t expect them to concede either. If lobbing the ball into the box is not expected to produce goals, why is arsenes team still doing it.Every team once in a while shows variation in there corner kicks but araene’s team keep doing the same thing over and over again.Arsenal needs like 100 corners to score a goal while they concede a goal in maybe 10 corners. I’ll love someone to help me with the ratio of goals scored and conceded from corners by arsenal, one thing I know for sure is that it will be poor.Clock End Rider,everything u said here is on point.In addition to the things u said,have u noticed the following – 1 per is fast becoming a liability, 2 arsenal rarely dominates games even against smaller teams, 3 the team makes too many wrong passes, so much to make one wonder what they do in training.
Arsene’s biggest undoing recently is never giving his team a real chance to compete.l know that even with the best ammunition u can still lose a war but u stand a better chance than when u go empty handed.we “may not” be able to have a second eleven as strong as the money bags but we can have a first eleven as strong as theirs and a second player for each position which has not been the case in recent times .Bringing in welbeck when we needed an improvement on Geroud is unacceptable. Dex said Arsene dosent get credit at all.it is hard to appreciate someone who is not making progress. No one called 4 his sack 10 years ago.when he was being hampered by the stadium project we understood, but now we are the only club in world football that has a cash balance of over 170 million pounds in the bank (stand to be corrected) all thanks to him, but its time to record success on the pitch. All we want is for arsenal to be successful again with or without him.but it looks like it won’t happen with him anymore. And to those who keep reminding us of what he had done,maybe we should bring back Henry,viera and co to play because of what they did too.The truth is he was gr8 but not anymore.The great Ferguson always showed respect to arsenal by changing his formation everytime he played us, but now even the smallest teams attack us these days without fear.