Loving Arsenal: conditional or unconditional?

60 Replies to “Loving Arsenal: conditional or unconditional?”

1. Going by the title, it’s unconditional, as long as we win trophies 😉

2. thank you.

3. My son is a Leeds Utd fan, and he still loves his Club after everything that has happened to that Club the last 10 years, so I am quite sure i would never turn my back to the Club in my heart. And buying no players this summer will surely not. IF and i do stress IF we do not sign any player we will be left With this :

   Keeper : Szcesny/Fabianski/Martinez

   Left Back : Gibbs, Monreal (Vermaelen)

   Centreback : Kos, Mertesacker, Vermaelen (Miguel, Sagna)

   Right Back : Sagna, Jenkinson

   Midfield : Arteta, Wilshere, Ramsey, OX, Diaby

   Attaking midfield : Poldi, Walcott, Cazorla, (Gnabry)

   Strikers : Giroud, Sanogo (Akpom)

   If we look at this it makes me 100% sure of one thing, AW will strengthen the Squad in the summer. He will buy at least one defender and one striker/attacker. We need a defender who can play both leftback and Central. And we need a striker as backup for Giroud. Yes backup for a man that has scored 6 goals in 135 mins of football this summer. Thats why i think AW is trying to get in Suarez, he can play up front on his own or behind a striker or even on the wings, he would be a Perfect partner for Giroud. But if we cannot get Liverpool to agree a reasonable fee for him, dont Count on a big name signing, but AW will strengthen the Squad i am sure of that!

4. As a father, I know that one can have unconditional love for something (your child) and still be critical of the way they act.

   I don’t think things are so black and white.

5. Billy says …..

   Sonnet 116
   ….Love is not love ,
   Which alters when it alteration finds,
   Or bends with the remover to remove:
   O no! It is an ever-fixèd mark
   That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
   It is the star to every wandering bark,

   If this be error and upon me proved,
   I never writ, nor no man ever loved.
   –William Shakespeare

   This above all; to thine own self be true.

   Life every man holds dear; but the dear man holds honor far more precious dear than life.

   The course of true love never did run smooth.

   Come, gentlemen, I hope we shall drink down all unkindness.

6. If anyone is in doubt – ITS UNCONDITIONAL !

7. http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes_of_the_day.html

8. Conditional, on Wenger not signing Suarez

9. James Lawton is the kind of Magwapa I would love to meet, he is asking, what happened to the ethos of Arsenal but for Christ sake when do whore-lists appliciate? Check it out http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/new-and-comm

10. Self-righteous!!!! Always right, others are wrong…….I guess some people just need that to make themselves feel better!! And in the article, you said No player is bigger than the club; BUT i guess Wenger is bigger than the club in your eyes; that’s why you didn’t mention it in your article. Am sure if Wenger leaves, you will follow him. AKBs!!!

11. forengaxx,
    That would be nine (9), count ’em, exclamation points to make your one point. Why don’t you present an argument?????????

12. Interesting question Walter. I reckon it might depend on why we chose the club we support in the first place ( a whole topic in itself for those of us who are not local to the club or live in different countries). It might also depend on what direct involvement an individual has/had with the sport. If you’ve played football the the best of your ability( doesn’t matter what standard) you can relate to the players and manager so much better. You can know the elation, frustration or heartache they experience, simply because you’ve probably experienced it too. I’ve supported Arsenal since I was 9 in 1970. Because I don’t live in the UK, I’ve seen them live only a handful of times. Yet I feel as connected to Arsenal as any season ticket holder. I’ve taken stick (physically and verbally) for supporting a team that was not always fashionable (particularly as a kid when we don’t have too many other more important things to worry about) and so my love for the club is part of my life and not something that can be turned on or off.
    I’ll hate it if Suarez signs for Arsenal. I’d be embarrassed for my club. I’d hate every minute I have to watch him in an Arsenal shirt. Not something I’ve ever felt about any player we’ve had before. But then he’ll move on and I can enjoy my club again
    So to get to the point, my support for the club is unconditional, because it’s there for so long, but if Suarez signs, something will be a bit diminished while he’s there.
    Allez Olivier 12

13. I may be showing my advanced age but come on guys its easy. Support is UNCONDITIONAL. Everything else is just a way of blowing off steam.

14. I know now why i stopped talking or talked less as i grew older. When i was young i was ever talking trying to give others my knowledge that i (as you do when young) was sure they would be pleased about. I was just trying to help them, no ulterior motive, and i was actually glad when others told and taught me things. Sadly as i grew up, i realised that others had found me arrogant, know it all, big headed, thinks he is superior etc. This is just how it looks to them. So i stopped talking, sadly they also stopped telling me things too, so i lost out in learning things from my peers, which i really enjoyed.
    Point i’m trying to make is this: We all go through phases where we are empty, then we learn things, we learn more things, then we think we know it all, then we realise we know nothing. One thing i know though, it does not matter what i know except to myself, because to everyone else it matters what they know to themselves. So let’s relax and ignore those who use expletives to make a point, who attacks one’s opinion with foulness, and who generally causes that sort of disruption, just like we do in real life. IGNORE, it is hard and takes some doing, but it is rewarding in the end. Only defend yourself if there is physical danger.

15. @Forengaxx – No Wenger is not bigger than the club! There is nothing in the article to suggest so…but yes there is a firm belief that AKB…!!!

    If not being abusive and trusting the manager and supporting the team is construed as self righteous…then yes we are.

    What the hell…AKB!

16. @ Busch, I had the same exact thoughts before reading your comment. I love my child unconditionally but yet can still be disapproving or critical of things that she does. Similarly, I love my country unconditionally and can still be critical of the policies of those currently governing it.

    For some, it seems that support/love means never questioning anything about the object of said support/love. As you said, things aren’t that black and white.

    I love Arsenal unconditionally, but don’t support all of the policies currently in place by those charged with the management of the club, who are after all only temporary, will come and go and are not bigger than the club.

    The club has had and will have different directions/policies/caretakers and there will always be disagreement under the umbrella of those who love it. And guess what?

    That’s natural, expected, and healthy.

17. Agreed A. Stewart. But unfortunately, how that disagreement and criticism is expressed makes all the difference. Not everyone knows how to raise a child well.

18. I always ask this question(s) as an analogy. Which ever country you hail from, assuming you are patriotic and love your county do you…

    1- Always agree with everything done, and the policies that the current or past government(s) have/had in place?

    2- Regardless of your inexperience and lack of expertise in politics, governance, international affairs etc. Do you nevertheless have an opinion on said policies, and often/sometimes have ideas of how things could be done better?

    Do either of number 1 or 2, mean that you are less patriotic or don’t love your country unconditionally?

    The country is bigger than its government, just like a Club is bigger than its management. Management and Government are inherently temporary, County and Club are largely permanent.

19. Walter, clearly its unconditional because that’s what true love is. You can’t love someone/thing conditionally (i love while you’re young/pretty/rich/successful) and then switch to someone else. You can fall out of love though – and the Saurezgate thing might push some people away. Not me. I’ve been following Arsenal for too long to change and so – for better or worse – I shall be standing where i should be sitting in a few weeks.
    by the way what is your twitter handle?

20. blacksheep it is @Waltergooner

21. Support for the team of your choice should really be easy and unconditional. You sit back, enjoy the triumphs, accept the disasters in sure and certain knowledge that there is nothing you could have done to alter either outcome.
    We older followers of Arsenal FC will smile a bit at the continual regret, by younger fans, at the absence of silverware for some 8 years or so. We have regularly witnessed defeat clutched from the jaws of victory and vice versa. It’s the Arsenal Way, ingrained in our history.
    Since the glory days of the late 1930’s, our team has never been able to retain a championship…..but so what.
    We have massive support world-wide, we play attractive football and we have a reputation for honest dealing, envied by many.
    Whatever position we hold in the country and in Europe, Arsenal FC is NEWS. There is little that happens at the Emirates that isn’t seized upon by the media and broadcast around the world via the written or visual word.
    In a nutshell therefore, support must be unconditional, rational, cool, calm and collected.
    No paranoid utterances because success has been denied us.
    Professional football is big business today which means fans will be excluded more and more from the knowledge of Board Room dealings. Those who administer our Club, demand great faith from supporters which the older generation will find easy to provide.
    It is to be hoped that the younger, more impatient fan will find it possible to follow suit.

22. And for those saying that “we AKB” will follow Wenger when he goes away: I’ve been a supporter since 1979 so have still known more years without than with. Mind you the years with were much better but I can live without him. But will always have good memories of him.

23. @ Shard, I agree…but that is a completely different topic…

    Even someone who has zero class in crudely expressing their disagreement (with how things are done) doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t love the club and love it unconditionally.

    Actually there’s an argument that can be made that they love the club so deeply it fans the flames of their passion for vehement disagreement with what they think/perceive (correctly or not) is ruining their club.

    People love to say how the so called “AAA” are not fans or don’t love the club, yet despite other clubs they could “f_ck off to” and “glory hunt”, by and large they don’t and still invest their thoughts and passions as directed solely to Arsenal, whether or not the so called “AKB” agrees with their positions or not.

    At the end of the day, no-one holds absolute authority on what a true fan is or not, I think we should all just accept that it’s only natural to have disagreements and factions within in larger supporting systems, regardless of how diametrically opposed these views can sometimes be..

    I think people should just support the club in the way they see fit and leave other people to do so too without questioning their loyalty.. after all, supporting a club is a uniquely personal relationship.

24. “Support for the team of your choice should really be easy and unconditional. You sit back, enjoy the triumphs, accept the disasters in sure and certain knowledge that there is nothing you could have done to alter either outcome.”

    And if someone doesn’t just “sit back and accepts disasters” but raises questions about them, it in no-way makes them any less of a supporter.

25. @KampalaGun
    Good observation. These journos now writing articles questioning Wenger’s values for trying to sign Suarez. I certainly dont remember reading any article questioning Ferguson’s values when he signed rvp. Instead he was praised and it was even labelled his best signing. I also don’t remember any article question Kenny Dalglish’s values for signing Suarez, even though he had just completed his 7 match ban for biting another player in the Eredivisie. The double standards shown in the English media are appalling.

    Walter
    My love for Arsenal is definitely unconditional, there’s no other way. Arsenal till I die.

26. “You can’t love someone/thing conditionally (i love while you’re young/pretty/rich/successful) and then switch to someone else”

    @ blacksheep…exactly…

    And that’s precisely what those who don’t agree with the current policies of those running the club don’t do…that is, they don’t switch to someone else.

    Regardless of how upset (as is their right) they may be with the policies in place of the temporary caretakers, it’s love of the club (that is bigger than all else) that retains their concerns even if oft expressed as misery.

    I’m sure if (hypothetically) Usmanov or someone took over tomorrow and started spending City-esque money, killing off youth development etc, changing managers every couple seasons.. Many here would be very upset because those policies go against the ethos of what many here hold dear, but I firmly expect that regardless of how genuinely upset you may be and in some cases vocally, none to not many would go an support another club.

27. A Stewart

    I think you are confusing things a bit by transporting the abstract into the actual. What is love? (Baby don’t hurt me) Sorry..

    Yeah.. Well, they may ‘love’ Arsenal. And yes, it is entirely a personal relationship they have with the club, so it can manifest itself in any form. Yet, if their method of expressing love, exhibits itself in the PUBLIC sphere as always being abusive of it, always finding fault etc, I think it can reasonably be termed to have morphed from ‘love’ to ‘obsession’, and an unhealthy one at that. They think they love the club and hence can treat it any way they like. While it is a little extreme to compare the two, but I believe a lot of wife beaters think the same way.

    SO we come back to what I said. How you express disagreement is what makes all the difference to how you are perceived. It is part of being part of a society. There’s no point portraying it as victimisation based on beliefs. That’s not what happens, by and large.

28. Love is unconditional. But if you are raising a kid you have to be prepared for punishing him/her when necessary. You just can’t allow your kids to do everything they want because being too passive/permissive will certainly ruin them.
    Many supporters don’t agree with the direction the club is heading. Whether they are wrong or not is not the question here but as supporters they have the right to share his concerns about Arsenal.
    They may be branded AAA for you but they want what it’s best for Arsenal. On the other hand, you are labeled AKB by many fans and while I feel you and others here really believe Wenger is doing a great job. However, it won’t hurt if you question some of Wenger’s methods or criticise Kroenke/Gazidis. It won’t make you less supportive of all things Arsenal.
    And this Suarez saga is really getting some legs…

29. @A Stewart,
    This is where we part company, I think.
    When disaster arrives (and remember we are merely talking about football as a game) fans of little faith immediately call for the head of the Manager, the CEO and anyone else in authority at the Emirates.
    Far better to look ahead, unconditionally, to the undoubtedly better times ahead. No point in asking questions which will remain unanswered (unless you are a member of the Board).

30. @A. Steward ” Management and Government are inherently temporary, Country and Club are largely permanent” Countries and clubs are inherently temporary too. Speaking from personal experience. So here comes question #3 to add to your list.

    3- What do you do if the country you were born or club you supported disappears? What country/club do you ‘love unconditionally’?

31. Andrei

    In fact, you are correct. What is it that makes you love something (country/institution) unconditionally?

    As you say, lots of clubs have disappeared, and, though it doesn’t instantly strike many of us, so do states (or their boundaries change at least)

    So I think the only answer to your question is that since all the physical aspects are quite temporary, what you actually love is not the state/club itself, but the idea of it. The notions and emotions behind it. This is why though Wimbledon disappears, their fans still follow Wimbledon AFC. Same with Glasgow Rangers, or Fiorentina in Italy about a decade ago. Those clubs are not the same entities, but it evokes the same emotion. It is also why despite some nations having disappeared (or been created), the ideas of nationalism, of belonging (and of not belonging) persist.

    A very good, thought provoking question to pose Andrei.

32. I think love for a football club is very conditional as is love for a sibling or a child. We always looking at a best case or a reasonable case scenario but what about a worst case or an unreasonable scenario. What if Arsenal became a refuge for racists, nazis and generally really disagreeable folks.

    What if stan kroenke was one of those bankers who defrauded the world, what if arsene wenger became a murderer would we still support him. I don’t think so, its the same with a child or a sibling, what if that child started beating you and became a serial rapist, would that love still be the same.

    Nothing is unconditional certainly not love, but the conditions for love to stop may vary however depending on your relationship with that thing, object or person. Sorry for the rant but as a person who’s been in an abusive situation I really object to people raising the unconditional love theory without being put in a situation to test its limits

33. @ swing. As far as I can make out the the source that Arsenal have made an offer for Surez has come from the ‘The Sun’ Which is ‘ a rag bag’ paper in England.

    If a player of his behaviour came to Arsenal I would be ashamed to be a Gooner and I would tell everyone I knew this. I don’t think I would stop supporting the club.

    To live with an abuser is a tragic situation to be in. I do not think the abused person has any reason to be ashamed or to stay in the situation. I hope and pray that you are back to being the person you were before you found yourself in that terrible situation.

    Like most Gooners of the time I was a great supporter of G. Graham but when his dishonesty became known he lost my support.

    Graham brought success and glory to the club and shame.

    Terry Neil in contrast did not have the success of Graham but he did not bring shame to the club. I respect him for that.

34. So what if the one that you love unconditionally, changes? No longer treats you with respect? What if the one that you love treats you like shit, gets as much out of you as possible but doesn’t give back in equal measure? What if the one that you love just ignores you, doesn’t respond to your yearning for the relationship that you once used to have when you could count on her or him to be thoughtful, sort out problems and listen? What if the one you love doesn’t actually love you anymore? What if they become so self obsessed with their own world and kind of just put up with you? After a few years of that things can turn sour…,personally I think my unconditional love is worth having, but I’m not sure Arsenal see it that way.

35. Nothing wrong with Gooners opting to disagree with things, not all agree with the majority on this site, and I must admit, there were times , especially in the last season or two when I wondered if they had a point. Still we move on and the vision becomes clearer. Ultimately i support this team through thick and thin and like you Walter, since 1978. Some of the more extreme element you refer to, still think a fair portion of them are crying spuds of the more bitter variety of their support. Others and these are the extremists I refer to as opposed to critics who can string a genuine arguement together, trolls, kids in rooms, the bitter , the twisted, the self haters, self harmers. Let them to it I say, these unfortunately unbalanced people most likely hate themselves more than they could ever hate anything to do with Arsenal.

36. It’s an interesting topic which has been covered many times and has yet to find a definite conclusion.

    Unconditional support; I would like to speak to supporters of 04 Bayer Leverkusen to find out their position on Bayer’s past, which may give us some insight into “unconditional support”.

    To answer this question, you have to look at the extremes and 04 Bayer Leverkusen’s past is extreme.

    Conditional support, is more temporary, that fits in with your own personal views and existence.

    In fact, I think I have found myself a new project.

37. See where you are coming from Fishpie, but maybe unconditional love for Arsenal, it is about hopes, enjoyment, memories, being part of something, about past glories , future dreams, Tony Adams, Dennis, Thierry, and Jack Wilshere, standing at Highbury, even the hurtful times like completely outplaying Luton in a final to be denied by a keeper few had heard of or the Liverpool cup final travesty. It is all part of supporting Arsenal. You may not like our owners or the way the club is run as is your right, but it may be in time the best chance we have of future dreams, giving what we are up against.

38. I came rather late to this thread and I was beginning to see group think about ‘unconditional’ love being expressed here. It is my habit to always read earlier comments (while unapologetically scrolling past the usual silly commenters) to see what the prevailing reaction is before posting anything, if I need to.

    Swing (and colario too),

    You sir/madam expressed my sentiments on Walter’s article perfectly! What the hell is unconditional love? I don’t know of any human concept that has a tighter hold on people than their religious faith. It is so strong that people conscientiously kill in the name of their religions! But people still change religion or just outrightly give them up totally. I did the latter. I have fallen in and out of love a few time in my lifetime. I always keep my eyes and mind open in everything I do, so if I start a relationship, sexual or otherwise, I go in with full commitment but I always leave room to exit no matter how strongly I feel when things are great.

    I have been accused of NOT WANTING ARSENAL TO WIN TROPHIES because of how strongly I defend the club against the fans whose grudge is based on how long we last won a trophy. My support is not based on trophies or calibre of players (although I want Arsenal to have the best of both); my support is based on the Arsenal values that made me a gooner to begin with. I am not expecting the club’s values to always align with mine and I expect mistakes to be made now and then, as I do in my own life. Signing Suarez with his well known faults will, however, not be a mistake. It will be a deliberate jettisioning of what is greatest about the club: doing things the right way! Signing an unrepentant racist and serial biter is not right. I don’t care if he will single handedly win us the premier and champions’ leagues. Arsenal is better than that!

    I will continue to support Arsenal even if Suarez is signed but the strength of my support will be highly diminished. I will not turn to an asshat as the AAA do over trophies but my support will be lukewarm at best.

    I continue to hope that this nightmare never comes to reality.

39. Uncoditional as long as can keep our principles and integrity, which we won’t be able to do if we sign Suraez.

40. To say unconditional completly I think is silly, would we support Arsenal if we were match fixing? If the players were all child abusers and the club supported it or didn’t do anything? I know I wouldnt.

41. All of us love the Arsenal, whether we are stereotyped as AAA,AKB or whatever. It is like the Muslims,Christians and Jews, all of whom believe in one God but differing versions of that entity. It is when we place more importance on the differences that separate us than the commonality that unites us, that divisions and prejudices step in and ruin what could be a fruitful relationship.
    Personally, I take a more positive view of what is happening at AFC but also acknowledge that there are things that could be done better and that error is human….and AFC is penultimately run by fragile and error-prone people just like us.
    It is not what we believe that makes us different but how we react to others’ beliefs that mark us as dignified or not.

42. Am posting this here only because marrage , wives ,mental wellness ,arguments and God , were mentioned here .

    A FRIGHTENING STATISTIC THIS IS A FRIGHTENING STATISTIC, PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST WORRYSOME IN RECENT YEARS.
    25% of the women in this country are on medication for mental illness.
    That’s scary.
    It means 75% are running around untreated.

    A young man wanted to get his beautiful blonde wife something nice for their first wedding anniversary. So he decided to buy her a cell phone. He showed her the phone and explained to her all of its features.
    Meg was excited to receive the gift and simply adored her new phone.
    The next day Meg went shopping. Her phone rang and, to her astonishment, it was her husband on the other end.
    “Hi Meg,” he said, “how do you like your new phone?”
    Meg replied, “I just love it! It’s so small and your voice is clear as a bell, but there’s one thing I don’t understand though…”
    “What’s that, sweetie?” asked her husband.
    “How did you know I was at Wal-Mart?”

    HE MUST PAY
    Husband and wife had a tiff. Wife called up her mom and said, “He fought with me again, I am coming to live with you.”
    Mom said, “No darling, he must pay for his mistake. I am coming to live with you.

    Today’s Short Reading from the Bible…
    From Genesis: “And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be found in all corners of the earth.”
    Then He made the earth round…and He laughed and laughed and laughed!

    A wife asks her husband, “Could you please go shopping for me and buy one carton of milk and if they have avocados, get 6.
    A short time later the husband comes back with 6 cartons of milk.
    The wife asks him, “Why did you buy 6 cartons of milk?”
    He replied, “They had avocados.”
    If you’re a woman, I’m sure you’re going back to read it again! Men will get it the first time.
    My work is done here.

43. And to bring balance to the farce –
    A woman arrived at the Gates of Heaven. While she was waiting for Saint Peter to greet her, she peeked through the gates. She saw a beautiful banquet table. Sitting all around were her parents and all the other people she had loved and who had died before her.
    They saw her and began shouting greetings to her: “Hello! How are you?! We’ve been waiting for you! Good to see you.”

    When Saint Peter came by, the woman said to him, “This is such a wonderful place! How do I get in?”
    “You have to spell a word,” Saint Peter told her.

    “Which word?” the woman asked.

    “Love.”

    The woman correctly spelled “Love” and Saint Peter welcomed her into Heaven.

    About a year later, Saint Peter approached the woman and asked her to watch the Gates of Heaven for him that day. While the woman was guarding the Gates of Heaven, her husband arrived.

    “Well, I’m really surprised to see you!” the woman exclaimed. “How have you been?”

    “Oh, I’d been doing pretty well since you died, actually,” her husband replied. “I married the beautiful, young nurse who took care of you while you were ill. And then I won the multi-state lottery. I sold the little house you and I lived in and bought a huge mansion. And my wife and I have been traveling all around the world. In fact, we were on vacation in Cancun when I went water-skiing today. I fell and hit my head, so here I am. What a bummer! Anyway, how do I get in?”

    “You have to spell a word,” the woman told him.

    “Which word?” her husband asked.

    “Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis”, she replied.

    Moral of the story: Never make a woman angry . . . or there will be Hell to pay!

    NB: The longest word currently listed in the Oxford dictionary is the lung-disease pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis (45 letters)

44. Rules are rules , or are they ?

    The manager of a large office noticed a new man one day and told him to come into his office.

    “What is your name?” was the first thing the manager asked the new guy.

    “Bobby,” the new guy replied.

    The manager scowled, “Look, I don’t know what kind of a mamby-pamby place you worked at before, but I don’t call anyone by their first name.

    “It breeds familiarity and that leads to a breakdown in authority. I refer to my employees by their last name only – Smith, Jones, Baker – that’s all. I am to be referred to only as Mr. Robertson. Now that we got that straight, what is your last name?”

    The new guy sighed and said, “Darling. My name is Bobby Darling.”

    “Okay, Bobby, the next thing I want to tell you is…”

45. Dom , this is for you !

    http://www.safeshare.tv/w/PKYPTOarUx

46. Edda,
    I mark the word ‘reasonable fee’, for although I think Suarez would improve our striking line, having Liverpool choke us to death is not a feeling i would like The Arsenal to experience. I say, if they cant accept 42 or 44m (even this is a lot), Arsene go to Spain, Germany or Portugal and unearth a ‘good’ striker who can score atleast 12 league goals, then buy a midfielder who can feel in at CD and call it a day. We can always use Yennalis and a few other youngerstars to relieve our senior players the pressure at some point in the season.

47. lol @brickfields

48. i dont agree with the article, but i think A.Stewart, busch,andrei, swing, fishpie and weedonald speak my mind. love is a strong emotion, but human love is hardly unconditional. the loved party usually shows characteristics which make it loved by the lover… if the loved begins to show the opposite of those characteristics, then i think it is a matter of degree to which the wrong characteristic is shown and length of time before the lover begins to lose his love… eg i bagan supporting arsenal in 1998 majorly because i loved sweet sexy football, and i hated man utd and saw arsenal as t he only credible competitor in england. of course my love for arsenal will be eroded the longer arsenal goes without competing, or playing good football. and the degree to which theres a drop in these parameters

49. UK
    “eg i bagan supporting arsenal in 1998 majorly because i loved sweet sexy football, and i hated man utd and saw arsenal as t he only credible competitor in england. of course my love for arsenal will be eroded the longer arsenal goes without competing, or playing good football. and the degree to which theres a drop in these parameters”

    That is the most perfect discription of a glory supporter, thanks UK.

50. Those concerned about signing Suarez, I would not be worrying just yet. There is a long way to go, firstly Liverpool and the player have to agree, then we have to pay fifty mil, then there are the spectres of Real Madrid, a possibly rooneyless Chelsea and who knows, maybe others. But we do need signings, I just hope not all our eggs are going in one basket. Quality player , and yes with serious baggage but a very very long shot.

51. uk,

    After reading your comment of 9.33am, I apologise for ever giving you stick over your complaints about trophies. You are a glory hunter! You have every reason to be mad at the goose that laid the golden (Wenger) for not doing so anymore.

    If you hate Man U so much, you can always switch allegiance to Man city or Barcelona or Bayern Munich or Chelsea or Monaco or PSG or Real Madrid or …….

    I love it when posters provide their honest bio!

52. @bootoomee,
    dont flatter yourself. you’ve never given me stick. just because you dont agree with me most of the time dont mean you should elevate the impact of your remarks so.
    now seriously, i thiink its absurd to call an arsenal fan today, a glory hunter. you could call us “ex glory hunters”, cos we havent had cause for glory in 8-9 years, and i personally think thats too long to be glory-hunting, when theres man utd,chelsea,city even liverpool out there. so please stevie E and bootoomee take note, im an ex/erstwhile/retired/emeritus glory hunter

53. uk,

    Good for you!

    We are all grateful for your endurance of those 8 – 9 years (9 years?). Future generations of gooners are going to praise your for the pain you bear during those trophyless years.

    Poor baby!

54. @ Shard…: RE

    “Yet, if their method of expressing love, exhibits itself in the PUBLIC sphere as always being abusive of it, always finding fault etc., I think it can reasonably be termed to have morphed from ‘love’ to ‘obsession’, and an unhealthy one at that. They think they love the club and hence can treat it any way they like. While it is a little extreme to compare the two, but I believe a lot of wife beaters think the same way.

    SO we come back to what I said. How you express disagreement is what makes all the difference to how you are perceived.
    ”

    I still have to disagree, there is no absolute right way or wrong way to express love, it’s a completely and inherently individual thing. Being fervently upset at something you love, doesn’t mean you don’t love it unconditionally, regardless of whether someone thinks it’s tasteful or not….

    And regarding the “PUBLIC sphere” well that’s just about anything and any manner of communication nowadays isn’t it? If someone is on an Arsenal-focused blog for example (be it pro Wenger policies or otherwise) the intended audience is those concerned with AFC, and as such a poster has a right to express his opinions (with the context of the hosts’ rules of course) regardless of if it can be picked up and likely will be viewed by an unintended audience of those not concerned with supporting Arsenal..

    People yearn for the good old days when supporters “supported”. But I’d bet under ever management regime at Arsenal or whatever else club, there were those supporters who vehemently disagreed with the direction being pursued, the only difference is they weren’t in an age of mass and instant communication that can make everything said instantly and unintentionally public.
    So to summarize, how won choses to communicate agreement or in the case of this discussion, disagreement, still to me has nothing to do with whether one loves the club unconditionally. Not to mention no-one can truly know what is inside someone or motivates them, so questioning their trueness or loyalty to me at least, goes very wide of the mark.

55. @ Andrei regarding..:

    “@A. Steward ” Management and Government are inherently temporary, Country and Club are largely permanent” Countries and clubs are inherently temporary too. Speaking from personal experience. So here comes question #3 to add to your list.

    3- What do you do if the country you were born or club you supported disappears? What country/club do you ‘love unconditionally’?
    ”

    Note where I said “largely” permanent with regards to club and country (especially in regards to the context of the far more obviously temporary governments/management)..thus implying of course there were, are and will be exceptions.

    With regards to your question of what would I do..
    I have no clue until placed in that situation. Though, I think perhaps it may be akin to losing a loved one, that in death and remembrance you still love them unconditionally.

    Perhaps you can share your personal experience (country and/or club) of how you handled it, I’d be genuinely interested in knowing.

56. @ Weedonald…Beutifully said and written!!

    “All of us love the Arsenal, whether we are stereotyped as AAA,AKB or whatever. It is like the Muslims,Christians and Jews, all of whom believe in one God but differing versions of that entity. It is when we place more importance on the differences that separate us than the commonality that unites us, that divisions and prejudices step in and ruin what could be a fruitful relationship.
    Personally, I take a more positive view of what is happening at AFC but also acknowledge that there are things that could be done better and that error is human….and AFC is penultimately run by fragile and error-prone people just like us.
    It is not what we believe that makes us different but how we react to others’ beliefs that mark us as dignified or not.”

    I wish all factions of gooners can really absorb what you wrote above before they toss out EQUALLY silly labels like AKB and AAA.

    And realize that we all want the same thing.

    Success for Arsenal Football Club.

    We may in some cases simply disagree on the definition of success, the best way to achieve success, and maybe even who should lead us to it. And such disagreement is normal, expected and healthy.

57. @bootoomee
    “we are all grateful….9years”. why would you be grateful about my business? do you take personal interest in the business of individual gooners worldwide? wouldnt that make you too much of a “busy body”?

58. @Kampala Gun and other on the Lawton “ethos” article. Only saw this today so apologies for late response. He is a total pain…in this article as in most…but there was one sentence that really hit home:

    “Odd, this is, in that the inclusion of the hugely problematic Suarez alongside the shop-soiled Wayne Rooney suggests nightmare quite as much as fantasy.”

    Hopefully, AW will (Walter, have your dictionary at hand before banning me!)stop being cunctatious and get the players he needs to strengthen the side without embarrassing old farts like me.

59. A Stewart

    Once again you mix things up. When did I ever say it was ‘wrong’ to express any sort of feeling? Or that you didn’t have the right to do it. I just said that HOW you express WHATEVER opinion you hold, how you interact with others, affects how you are perceived by society.

    My point was only that instead of cribbing about how it’s unfair that they are perceived to be disruptive, unruly, and anti-Arsenal, and pretending that they are shunned because of their opinion, maybe they should look at why they are treated that way and try to communicate their thoughts in a better manner.

    While I stand uncomfortable using generalisations, it must be accepted even by you that not all of those who offer differing opinions are termed as AAA. Only those who express their opinions in a certain way are called so.

60. Shard,….I think we’re having expected electronic lost in translation stuff. I

    understand what you are saying about perception. However, it’s a generalization to group society as a whole in terms of a homogenous view on how someone you think is abusive in their opinions towards how (in this case) Arsenal is currently being run, is (justifiably) perceived as being against the club. People like me also comprise society, and while I can perceive some of these people as abusive, rash and angry, I still look at the context of their complaint as opposed to its style, with regards to whether one thinks they love the CLUB or not (the point of this whole discussion).

    And no matter how un-sophisticatedly brash and abusive someone is in their complaints about Wenger’s/the execs’ direction and policies, many of us in “society” can look past style and see the substance is that they simply disagree with how things are being run, and disagree out of love for the club. Whether or not one agrees with their opinions or not.

    I think the majority of those who perceive people to be AAA or whatever based on the tone and style of some of Wenger’s detractors amongst the AFC fan-base, are likely already biased to view people of that prevailing opinion (regardless of style) as AAA, because it’s diametrically opposed to their opinions. The style used, only simply adds to a fire that was already combusting.

    Also, I never said you said it was wrong to express any sort of feeling.

    Also I’m not whining about how unfair EITHER group is viewed the so called AAA/AKB, the caricatures which in my eye are equal..so in no-way was I crying for the AAA or whatever.

    Regarding your last line, no sorry I don’t accept that, precisely because it is a generalization. Shard you seem to be a very rational person, however, there certainly are people (including on UA) who if you state your disagreement with Wenger’s policies, no matter how respectfully, thought-out etc..react with disproportionate vitriol and in a haste are ready to say that you are AAA, i.e. against Arsenal. There simply seems to be people who equate criticism of Arsene Wenger to being against the club.