By Tony Attwood
Heavy defeats hurt – and the defeat to Man U on 28 August 2011 was one of the most hurtful moments I’ve experienced as an Arsenal supporters of many years. Letting in 8 was atrocious, and it came on the top of a 0-0 draw away to Newcastle, and a 0-2 home defeat to Liverpool – an awful start to the season.
But…
Arsenal did eventually recover and after a 2-1 defeat to Tottenham on 2 October 2011, the club went on a much needed positive run of seven wins and one draw, including a remarkable 3-5 away win to Chelsea. Ultimately we ended up third – albeit 19 points away from the top club. Tottenham ended up fourth.
So, a terrible defeat that day. But is it comparable to Tottenham’s defeat 6-0 to Manchester City on 24 November 2013?
One of the key issues to compare is the state of the squad. For Arsenal, Eboue went to Turnkey, Nasri went to Man City as did Clichy, while Fabregas went to Barcelona. We brought in Gervinho and Oxlade Chamberlain.
On deadline day (after the Man U defeat) we brought in Santos, Mertersacker, Benayoun and Arteta. There were other changes of course, but these were the key ones.
Tottenham lost their top man this summer in Bale – and it was a protracted case rather like Cesc’s move – but they then spent most of that money, while Arsenal held back for the right players in the future. (This is something to remember in the light of the comment by the BBC’s same after the defeat – as I point out below).
Here’s the list of Tottenham’s incoming players this season
| Player/Position |
from |
|
|
|
|
Christian Eriksen |
| Attacking Midfield |
|
|
AFC Ajax Amsterdam |
| Eredivisie |
|
|
Vlad Chiriches |
| Centre Back |
|
|
|
Étienne Capoue |
| Defensive Midfield |
|
|
|
Roberto Soldado |
| Centre Forward |
|
|
Valencia CF |
| Primera División |
|
|
|
|
FC Twente Enschede |
| Eredivisie |
|
|
Paulinho |
| Central Midfield |
|
|
Sport Club Corinthians Paulista |
| Campeonato Brasileiro Série A |
|
|
Bongani Khumalo * |
| Centre Back |
|
|
PAOK Thessaloniki |
| Super League |
|
|
|
|
UD Almería |
| Primera División |
|
|
Ryan Mason * |
| Attacking Midfield |
|
|
|
|
|
The argument could therefore be that Tottenham really have limited choices in the transfer window in January or next summer. The money has been spent and they need to make this work.
There is also the point that Arsenal have their stadium, and the income not only that is brought in by that, but also by the Champions League. It has been argued by some Tottenham supporters on Untold that Tottenham will be building very quickly since the money is being provided by the owner, and not raised from banks. I am not sure this has been confirmed – but if it is it will certainly speed up the process. However the obvious fact is that the stadium is not there now, and is at least two years away even if the owner is going to take the risk of funding it personally.
Here are Tottenham’s games leading up to the 6-0 defeat.
- Crystal P 0 Tottenham 1
- Tottenham 1 Swansea 0
- Arsenal 1 Tottenham 0
- Tottenham 2 Norwich 0
- Cardiff 0 Tottenham 1
- Tottenham 1 Chelsea 1
- Tottenham 0 West Ham 3
- Aston villa 0 Tottenham 2
- Tottenham 1 Hull 0
- Everton 0 Tottenham 0
- Tottenham 0 Newcastle 1
- Manchester C 6 Tottenham 0
The most obvious point here is that Tottenham not only had a defeat today of some significance but also have only scored nine goals compared with 34 for Manchester C, and 24 each for Arsenal and Liverpool. This table doesn’t include the Man U match today.
|
Team |
Pld |
W |
D |
L |
F |
A |
GD |
Pts |
| 1 |
Arsenal |
12 |
9 |
1 |
2 |
24 |
10 |
+14 |
28 |
| 2 |
Liverpool |
12 |
7 |
3 |
2 |
24 |
13 |
+11 |
24 |
| 3 |
Chelsea |
12 |
7 |
3 |
2 |
21 |
10 |
+11 |
24 |
| 4 |
Manchester City |
12 |
7 |
1 |
4 |
34 |
12 |
+22 |
22 |
| 5 |
Southampton |
12 |
6 |
4 |
2 |
15 |
7 |
+8 |
22 |
| 6 |
Everton |
12 |
5 |
6 |
1 |
17 |
13 |
+4 |
21 |
| 7 |
Manchester United |
11 |
6 |
2 |
3 |
18 |
13 |
+5 |
20 |
| 8 |
Newcastle United |
12 |
6 |
2 |
4 |
17 |
17 |
0 |
20 |
| 9 |
Tottenham Hotspur |
12 |
6 |
2 |
4 |
9 |
12 |
–3 |
20 |
| 10 |
Swansea City |
12 |
4 |
3 |
5 |
17 |
16 |
+1 |
15 |
Arsenal did take a few games to get themselves back together after the horrors of the Man U match but I think the main factor is that Arsenal’s defeat came about just before the end of the transfer window, and we were able to do a bit of repair work after losing Nasri, Clichy and Cesc. We couldn’t replace that line of talent in full (although ending up third after such an exodus will always go down in my book as a staggering achievement) but rather we brought in Arteta, Mertersacker and Gervinho. And yes I know that the crowd turned on Gervinho later, but he was part of the early rescue package.
So let us look at the position after 12 games two years ago. Arsenal had had their 8-2 by then. Here’s the top 10
|
|
Played |
Won |
Drawn |
Lost |
GoalsFor |
Against |
Goal Diff |
Points |
| 1 |
Manchester City |
12 |
11 |
1 |
0 |
42 |
11 |
+31 |
34 |
| 2 |
Manchester United |
12 |
9 |
2 |
1 |
29 |
12 |
+17 |
29 |
| 3 |
Tottenham Hotspur |
11 |
8 |
1 |
2 |
23 |
15 |
+8 |
25 |
| 4 |
Newcastle United |
12 |
7 |
4 |
1 |
18 |
11 |
+7 |
25 |
| 5 |
Chelsea |
12 |
7 |
1 |
4 |
25 |
17 |
+8 |
22 |
| 6 |
Liverpool |
12 |
6 |
4 |
2 |
16 |
11 |
+5 |
22 |
| 7 |
Arsenal |
12 |
7 |
1 |
4 |
25 |
22 |
+3 |
22 |
| 8 |
Aston Villa |
12 |
3 |
6 |
3 |
16 |
17 |
-1 |
15 |
| 9 |
Queens Park Rangers |
12 |
4 |
3 |
5 |
13 |
22 |
-9 |
15 |
| 10 |
West Bromwich Albion |
12 |
4 |
2 |
6 |
11 |
17 |
-6 |
14 |
So, Tottenham after their defeat by six goals are only two points worse off than Arsenal were in the season of our terrible start. But we had scored 25 by match 12 in that season to their 9 by match 12 in this season.
Stats can prove most things, and I know I’m not going to prove much at all here, but I come back to the point that although Tottenham and Arsenal have each had their own bad start, and we showed two years ago it is possible to work up the table to third despite such a defeat, I still think that what really turned us around was that we had not spent all the money by the time of the defeat.
I’m going to finish with our team that fateful day and a comment made about the match, plus the team we ended the season with…
- 13 Szczesny
- 06 Koscielny
- 20 Djourou (now on loan)
- 25 Jenkinson Dismissed after two bookings
- 30 Traore (Transferred to QPR the next day)
- 07 Rosicky
- 14 Walcott (Lansbury – 83′ )
- 16 Ramsey
- 23 Arshavin
- 39 Coquelin (Oxlade-Chamberlain – 62′ )
- 10 Van Persie (Chamakh – 83′ )
The BBC chief football writer of the day, Phil McNulty, said “For Wenger it was a performance, or lack of one, that proved the folly of his summer of transfer inaction.”
Well, yes, but the team that was left had enough about them to reach third.
At the end of the season we had
- 13 Szczesny
- 05 Vermaelen
- 06 Koscielny
- 11 Santos (Ramsey – 79′ )
- 25 Jenkinson
- 07 Rosicky (Walcott – 46′ )
- 17 Song
- 30 Benayoun
- 39 Coquelin
- 10 Van Persie
- 27 Gervinho (Gibbs – 67′ )
And there is one further point about that comment concerning lack of transfer activity: Ramsey and Mertersacker were both at the club at this time. We just didn’t quite know how good they really were.
Dear blogger…this is something untold and it doesn’t make sense for you to mislead readers and supporters in such a manner. Indeed we lost to Manu on the dreadful 28th Aug 2011 but we are playing with only 30% first team squad at the time. Look at Spurs, they came to ManCity with a complete first team.
Much much worse for Spurs. Admittedly city are excellent at home but the spuds were nowhere near the races. It is now late November not the start of the season and as you say the spuds spent a fortune. Spurs now have their most creative player injured for a few weeks and their foreign imports face the EPL winter for the first time on the back of this. They clearly have good players but no team cohesion. And they have spent near thirty million on soldado! Anyone for an Arry return? As ever at such times my thoughts are with a very large section of the uk sports media
Forgot to mention it would be even worse for spurs without all those dodgy early season penalties. Off topic but how is Rooney still on the Cardiff pitch…..sorry really stupid question!
So much worst than Arsenal…I mean this is a complete demolition of a world class team(when I say world class I mean by the amount they spent on players)
Yes Tony, far worse for Spurs. We had one of our usual back four on the pitch at OT that day (i remember Sagna being announced as injured just before the match).
Spurs had pretty much their first team out today (Eriksen aside). They were atrocious today with their 100m of talent on “display”.
We also must remember that we went down to 10 men that day and missed a penalty!
And yes Mandy, what else can we expect?! Rooney kicks out at a player, only gets a yellow. Scores the first goal, sets up the second and also very importantly avoids a three match ban at a time they really need him.
Absolutely typical. Not the first time he has gotten away with something like this either.
At least Cardiff got the draw they deserve…..
Can the FA know ban Rooney for 3 games for violent play under the new rules ie going back to look at refs decisions even after giving Rooney a yellow card that everyone agrees should have been red.
Yes, it’s a bit mutch.
The FA now have the power to overturn this, under their new powers.
lol. I just saw a few pigs flying past the window. The worst thing is that the FA protects Rooney in the belief he is England’s best player, but Sturridge is a better centre-forward anyhow.
Yes well done Cardiff. This is why Rooney always gets sent off away from the protection of the English refs. Wonder how Avb will explain today? Don’t think levy is the type who takes kindly to monetary wastage
Mandy
Didn’t bother to watch, but heard Rooney kicked a Cardiff player like he did against the Montenegro player. I expect to see some serious ref-tilting from now on.
On another note hope the brother in-law didn’t take the 6 nil drubbing too badly….
Fear you may be right on the ref tilting Al. Will allow myself the pleasure of speaking to the brother in law later. He must be gutted know he is becoming increasingly disillusioned with Avb and us being top cannot be helping!
so you change your entire strike force in one fell swoop and expect what? who are these genius managers? i suspect you could pluck a fellow from the stands and he would do better. i complain about the standards of the football coaches in my son’s under 19 league and then i realize the “special happy one” was dumb enough to loan out lukaku for the season. as with the refs, many of these coaches have no idea what they are looking at.
I told my friend that Rooney foul is a red card, he said yes is a red card, but he only get a yellow. Imagine if Giroud is the one kick cardif city player? The ref will know the rules but rooney the ref forget the rules.
Spuds 8 points below us with a relative GD of -17 compared with us. They may recover as we did but Avb certainly has his work cut out. Not easy when you lose your best players it takes great management to turn that around
If you all remember when Wenger has been asked about spuds and the way they bought players he said it is very difficult when you bring six or seven new players and he said it will take time to get them to play as a team, he said max two or tree players at time and he has been completely right , you can not just buy players no matter how good they are the most important is they can play together look at Sunderland where they are now with all new player or spuds 100,000,000 !!!!!!! Only scord 9 goals and now -3 !!!!! Wenger knows what he is talking about.
Spurs were rubbish, and they been rubbish this season.what a pitty for all the money they wasted.WYY do we have to compare ourselves with arsenal,instead they should be more ambitious and aim for higher things,we will never win anything with this mentality.
AVB does not seem to play his best collection of players,still can not make up his mind.
Well, we spent a net total of 0 this summer. Lost our best player, and alot of new players is hard to integrate. I think this loss was good for us in the long run. Something needs to be done. Why can’t Dembele play every game like he did today. Why did he suddenly not make a single backpass like he does every game. It seems Spurs are afraid of turning the play against the opposition’s goal. So much safety-first in their build-up.
I would even try Dembele as a second striker, barely loses the ball, and incredibly strong and fast. Play Sandro and Eriksen in the midfield with townsend on the left and Lamela on the right. Sigurdsoon as nr 10 if we play 4-4-1-1.
Haha, yeah it’s best to steer clear of the brother in-law till things simmer down a little, Mandy.
Regarding the spuds signings, remember some of our so-called fans pointing at their summer splurge as proof that Wenger didn’t have a clue what he was doing; our rivals were snapping up all the best players in the world while we were dithering and signing unknown 20 year olds on frees, and risking falling out of the top 6. A £100m+ poorer and -8 points off the pace later, I wonder who is having the last laugh.
It seems many don’t know that we actually did not spend any money this transfer, and we have got a lot of potential in our squad. And remember that after Redknapp took over Spurs, the arrow has been pointing upwards, and the last seasons we have been a poor 1 point away from our rivals. Arsenal have stagnated, Spurs have been improving.
@Ole
Yes, Arsenal have stagnated to the top of the Premier League. We are stagnating in the Champions League as well. I know you are feeling down at the moment but don’t be such a plank.
Wenger out
How much longer is this going to go on with Rooney? I have always said he is a dangerous player, as in “bone breaking” and are we going to have to wait until he breaks bones until he gets punished?
Well Spuds are truly beaten by City and i could not help a smile while watching, especially after the first goal. Before the match i was thinking they are going to get thrashed, and lo and behold it came to pass. Cool.
But i am still waiting for REVENGE for us against Manu, 11th Feb, (hope is a CL free week), hope we can dish it out to them in our next match with them, is at home too, better for the fans.
Tottenham Hot Air!
Their loss was worse.
Testing
Arsenal have stagnated? Losing only five games all year to date in the league, beating this years champions league finalists, and we have stagnated. God give me strength?
Hi Lads and lasses.
Hope I’m back. Missed you all.
I’m a computor numpty and just could’nt get in. For some reason, no reason, seems I’m back in. Yippeee (for me anyway !!)
Hey jambug! Mandy for Rooney to get a red he needs to hold a player and hump him otherwise is regarded as no contact! And will be just like grandma…
Grandma is eighty-eight years old and still drives her own car. She writes:
Dear Grand-daughter,
The other day I went up to our local Christian book store and saw a ‘Honk if you love Jesus’ bumper sticker ..
I was feeling particularly sassy that day because I had just come from a thrilling choir performance, followed by a thunderous prayer meeting.
So, I bought the sticker and put it on my bumper.
Boy, am I glad I did; what an uplifting experience that followed.
I was stopped at a red light at a busy intersection, just lost in thought about the Lord and how good he is, and I didn’t notice that the light had changed.
It is a good thing someone else loves Jesus because if he hadn’t honked, I’d never have noticed.
I found that lots of people love Jesus!
While I was sitting there, the guy behind started honking like crazy, and then he leaned out of his window and screamed, ‘For the love of God!’
‘Go! Go! Go! Jesus Christ, GO!’
What an exuberant cheerleader he was for Jesus!
Everyone started honking!
I just leaned out my window and started waving and smiling at all those loving people.
I even honked my horn a few times to share in the love!
There must have been a man from Florida back there because I heard him yelling something about a sunny beach.
I saw another guy waving in a funny way with only his middle finger stuck up in the air.
I asked my young teenage grandson in the back seat what that meant.
He said it was a Hawaiian good luck sign.
Well, I have never met anyone from Hawaii , so I leaned out the window and gave him the good luck sign right back.
My grandson burst out laughing.
Why even he was enjoying this religious experience!!
A couple of the people were so caught up in the joy of the moment that they got out of their cars and started walking towards me.
I bet they wanted to pray or ask what church I attended, but this is when I noticed the light had changed.
So, grinning, I waved at all my brothers and sisters, and drove on through the intersection.
I noticed that I was the only car that got through the intersection before the light changed again and felt kind of sad that I had to leave them after all the love we had shared.
So I slowed the car down, leaned out the window and gave them all the Hawaiian good luck sign one last time as I drove away. Praise the Lord for such wonderful folks!!
Will write again soon,
Love, Grandma
This weekend has been a special weekend.
One: It’s my birthday today and I have some lovely pressies from my better half.
Two: (well maybe one !!) WE WON !!!
Three: Spurs !! Nuff said !!!
Four: Cardiff. Well done lads.
Five: Everton/liverpool Draw….Nice,
Six: West Ham……Oh well you cant have everything !!
So, City and Cardiff comming up….at least we know what to expect !!!
Oh I forgot.
Seven: I AM BACK IN. Yippeeeeeeeee!!!!!
As Brickfields is not here yet I will take the honours in the humour department :
AVB his wife tried to wake him up on a monday morning shouting: Come on Andre it’s already 7.
AVB: opened his eyes and yelled: OMG did they score again?
Back on subject, Spurs is much worse.
At OT we was, at least for a period, competing, and if we hadn’t missed a pen, and then, to compound the issue, gone down to 10 men, well you never know? But alas history is witness to the fact we was stuffed.
But today, at NO time was Spurs, and there array of 110 Million pounds worth of talent, ever in the game
Personally I think City will win the league. I hate to sound disloyal, I just think they have the depth of squad to not even notice when a player is missing. Thats what happens when you spend a Billion quid.
But you never know. If we can keep it going and get a result up there in December, well you never know.
Either way i’m already in heaven just seeing the way the lads are giveing it there all in every game.
COYG
@Brickfields
Okay, you never run across a football remake of Who’s on first.
There was a hiring joke I heard a long time ago, probably some manager looking for a secretary. He had 3 outstanding applicants: one blonde, one brunette and one red head. Discussion of the qualifications. Who got the job? The one with a certain body part that was large.
Ever run across that? Hints where to look?
—
David Moyes: Wayne Rooney is allowed to kick people. Of course he shouldn’t have been red carded.
—
Mourinho complaining about Mike Riley apologizing to (I forget).
My translation of Mourinho.
Mourinho: We paid good money to PGMOL for decisions. If you are going to start apologizing for these bad decisions, referees might start doing their job properly, and quit making those decisions we paid for.
[ I have no proof that any EPL team has paid money to PGMOL, or is in any way blackmailing PGMOL to get decisions in their benefit. ]
The Spurs defence was horrid. There seemed no cover for the back four and Dawson seemed to lose his runner over and over. There were as many chances in the Everton Liverpool derby but at least they were shared.
Allan1340,
You forgot to mention the stick that AW got for that insightful comment on the eve of the North London Derby. He was roundly told to shut up by the media, spurs fans and many of our own AAA. It’s funny that after we handed their asses to them in the game, the general excuse became what AW rightly said. They’ve been using the same excuse ever since.
But I want to stress here (because I totally hate revisionist bullshit), the number of new signings was universally seen to be in Tottenham’s favour. Please go back and look at the pundits predictions until Olly brought them all back down to earth with that beautifully taken goal. Conversely, Arsenal was universally panned for not “spending the fucking money”. I am proud to say that us at Untold have always believed that consistency trumps “cash splashing”. It feels great that we’ve been right.
As much as I hate the Arse, Wenger is a class manager and has performed brilliantly under budget and gets his players and the CL qual year after year. This year is Arsenal’s for the league with man c likely 2nd. I still can’t believe how we didn’t get ozil on an exchange deal for Bale – undoubtedly he wouldn’t have signed anyway with no CL football at Spurs.
Spurs are and will be a mid table team for the rest of the season. I’ve never seen my team run round like headless chickens like today and recent matches. They are without organisation or clear instruction. It’s a total mess.
I have to agree with a lot of the critics – it’s gonna take 3-4 years for Spurs to get back in the top 4.
jambug,
First of all happy birthday and welcome back to Untold.
I am not happy with your “thinking” that City will win the league. I ask you on what account? You say “squad depth” and I wonder which team has lost most 1st teamers this season? The answer is Arsenal. Yet we are top of the league. What does that say about our squad depth? For goodness sake City can only play 19 games at home and they have demonstrated that they cannot even get a draw away to Sunderland after putting 7 past Norwich at the Etihad. What is the use of squad depth if you are not consistent with it?
I am only taking issue with you because I know that you are one of the most loyal Gooners around. Why are we still doubting this team despite all they’ve shown us while bigging up those doing much worse?
I need you to wash you mouth with soap and then write the following 100 times:
“Arsenal is winning the league because we are the best and the most consistent”!
That is your punishment for lacking faith 🙂
funny the pundits say man ure have lost their fear factor more like ref factor!
The Naked Cowboy
A Sheriff in a small town in Wyoming walks out in the street and sees a blond haired cowboy coming toward him with nothing on but his cowboy hat, his gun and his boots. He arrests him for indecent exposure.
As he is locking him up, he asks ‘Why in the world are you walking
Around like this?’
The cowboy says, ‘Well it’s like this Sheriff, I was in this bar down the road and this pretty little red head asks me to go out to her motor home with her. So I did.
We go inside and she pulls off her top and asks me to pull off my shirt…. So I did.
Then she pulls off her skirt and asks me to pull off my pants….. So I did.
Then she pulls off her panties and asks me to pull off my shorts….. So I did.
Then she gets on the bed and looks at me kind of sexy and says,
‘Now go to town cowboy. ‘
‘And here I am.’
Son of a Gun. Blonde Men do exist!
First time I have ever seen a Blonde Man Joke !
@ Dr Dribble
Wenger has done a great job, and hopefully will continue to do so. I am not going to try and predict Champions League, EPL or FA cup. I just think it is wonderful that they have serious consideration.
From what I’ve read, I don’t think Real Madrid would have ever exchanged Ozil for Bale. If nothing else, Wenger had his foot in the door a long time ago. There may be players who won’t sign unless CL is available, I don’t think Ozil is one of them. I think he came to Arsenal, because Arsenal football is what he wants to play.
Things happen. It may be that Top-4 is unlikely, it isn’t impossible. Some clubs like to sneeze at Europa League, it is another level of competition (and hopefully UEFA at some point makes Europa League winners as qualifiers to CL).
What Spurs (or a lot of other teams) needs, is to get away from this idea that a manager is only there for a year or two. Ownership/management of teams has to find a manager that fits in with their philosophy, and give that manager (you said 3-4 more for AVB) 6 years to work with things. But should Pulis get a 3 year contract to run Palace, my expectation is that he will be sacked before the season ends. I think most owners regard a year to be composed of about 30.5 days.
I think the various FAs (in the case of England, the FA and the EPL) need, is a rule that you can only change managers once in a season. You try to change the manager twice in a season, the FA steps in and takes over management of the club.
The solution to too many losses is easily seen: park the bus and look for the tie. Relatively speaking, defensive players are cheaper than offensive players. Playing in 1/3 of a field (or less) requires less fitness. A team that can’t stop losing, can probably find many (even 10?) excellent defenders in their mid 30’s who are still fit. They all understand the game. This won’t win games, this just stops losing.
Not applicable in the case of Spurs.
Jambug.
First, happy birthday dude/ dudarina.
Second, I agree with you (despite someone being unhappy with what you think which is laughable). City are favorites- they have a massive squad and have spent close to a billion in 3 years.
Lets hope we can go back to 89 where we won the league with an inferior squad, but the best team and team spirit.
Interesting weekend for the refs some high profile mistakes MOTD and media here seem critical mr Riley may be making a few phone calls in coming days
BBC: Three Decisions that shaped the weekend (with some pictures)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25082495
1: Mirallas on Suarez
One picture. It appears Suarez is closer to the ball. Does Suarez
hope to control the ball with the bottom of his foot? From angle of
picture, it is not apparent where Mirallas is aiming his foot, the
ball or Suarez’s knee. From the picture, it is hard to see how
contact from Mirallas on Suarez would have been behind the knee.
2. Rooney on Mutch
No picture of use.
The only thing a player is allowed to kick in the field of play, is
the ball. To kick another player (and the ball is within playing
distance) could be construed to be an accident. The ball was not
within playing distance, the kick is violent conduct.
Perhaps it is a yellow to Mutch, but Rooney is a straight Red.
3. Brown on Adam.
No picture of use.
The object of football is not to end the careers of other players.
That what Wes Brown did could have had serious consequences is not
being argued. The question seems to be, was Wes Brown in Control.
Being in control is irrelevant. Someone with intent to injure, is in control. If Adams moved even slightly different than he did, was
their a significant chance that Wes Brown would seriously injure him? If yes, Wes Brown had reckless disregard for another player. If Wes Brown had intent to injure, contact is irrelevant. Violent conduct does not require contact. Enjoyment of the fans? Ridiculous argument and completely irrelevant. The laws apply whether there are fans or not.
But credit to the BBC for mentioning that there were possible problems with officiating.
And I am not the best judge of this anyway, Walter and others are better judges than I am.
Rooney admits to making a bad tackle
The ball is not within playing distance, it cannot be a tackle. Hence, Rooney admits to Violent Conduct. Rooney should be gone for (3 or more games).
If you are going to be consistent , the 8-2 loss at OT had to be worse for a number of reasons.
Firstly ,Arsenal are a top European football club with a great European history of uninterrupted CL football ,while Tottenham aren’t and a 8-2 defeat was very damaging to our brand , one that might’ve cost us millions in sponsorship deals.
Secondly, Arsenal have one of the world’s top and sought after football managers in Wenger , while AVB is still an unknown quantity and nobody would be surprised if he got his walking papers at the end of the season.
Thirdly, loosing 8-2 to a fierce rival like ManU , considering the rich and tumultuous history between the two clubs, is surely never going to be forgotten no matter what the circumstances.
It would be like Barca loosing big to Real or vice versa, or Bayern to Borussia, or Juve to Milan.
No disrespect to Tottenham but 6-0 score line from Etihad Stadium isn’t going to create much ripple effect around Europe.
Fourthly, two years ago most sources associated with Arsenal FC had stated that funds were available to Wenger so the new stadium argument and financial constraints that came along with it might’ve not been as valid as some people had thought. Furthermore, losing Sesc, Nasri and Clichy was a big blow to Arsenal FC but one that should’ve been seen from a mile away. After all it wasn’t as if those players didn’t give hints of wanting to leave and contingency plans should’ve been in place to remedy it.
Fifthly , Arsenal managed to finish third that season while I doubt very much Tottenham are going to finish third this season in the PL ,and if you had said before the season started that spending 100 M plus on new players didn’t guarantee success and new players needed time to jell, then you were right but you can’t say now that Tottenham should be doing better because you just contradict yourself.
And lastly , while I understand the North London rivalry and friendly banter between fans ,the fact remains that Tottenham play Europa league at places most people hardly ever heard of and have never finished ahead of Arsenal under Wenger and their aspirations are to make it to CL next season , while Arsenal’s are to win it every season. Enough said.
When Arsenal played Chelsea with a relatively weak team a few weeks ago for the cup match and lost by 2 goals. Fabianski Jenkinson Vermaelen Miyaichi Bendtner Cazorla, were deployed who were either reserve or out of form players.
Some say “all is lost, Arsenal can’t beat a big team … So what about losing 6-0 with a full team?
Some would still say Tottenham needed more time. May be. It takes technical brilliance, good form and some luck to score goals so although they lack goals, one can still excuse them for going out of form during their adptation period.
However a team achieve solid defense with drills, discipline, fighting spirit and hard working. So it looks like not only they fail to gel, they really lack fighting spirit character.
Speaking of needing more time to GEL, did people not write off Arsenal after some poor start in the 2011 season when many were brought in?
Don’t forget, they spent 100M where as Arsenal spent under 40M.
TJ don’t forget we won the league that year with all British players, last club to do that since.
While I really think that we are in with an excellent chance, City are capable of going the distance but might be looking more to the champions league. They still have to get Negredo and other new guys to keep it up during the harsh winter especially further north you go. This also is a problem for Spurs as it won’t get easier for a while.
It is possible for Spurs to turn it around as we did but they have a big hill to climb. City to continue in Europe please until the qtrs but no further, hopefully by then they too far back (crazy talk). Worked with a cockney hammers fan (reminds me of Arry) on Saturday morning (haha) he doesn’t like AW but didn’t say why. A rival coach I suspect and media lover/reader. Anyway he just summed up a typical brainwashed fan and after I told him a few truths about us, he was gob smacked and maybe found a whole new respect.
We are the anti – antichrist, the fighters of the new oil money, buy it rather than work for it and stand proud knowing we have honour…
COYG lets see how good we are v city!!!!
* ‘Work for it rather than buy it’.
No doubt Spuds was worse. At least we had some positives. Looking back on this old fart’s thoughts on the day:
Manchester United 8 Arsenal 2
Ah the glory that was Rome…whoops Udinese… sort of came a clanger in Manchester. We were well reminded that 3 clubs in the football league have swear words in their name. Ourselves of course; Scunthorpe and MFU.
Losing Chewbacca and the Verminator certainly didn’t help the cause but there were a few bits that we could have positive thoughts about:
*we won the toss
*we got a penalty from Webb
*we could have equalized.
*Robin will remember not to miss hit a penalty at Old Fartford
*there were a few minutes when we looked useful and could have easily been at 2-3 early in the second half.
*we’re still ahead of the spuds
*that was probably the weakest team we can put out, indeed, have had to put out since the 1950’s.
*therefore things will get better!
*it should have proved a point to a few people that we should do something about our squad depth
*and on that point, how come we get kids that can’t get work permits and everybody else can? Campbell the most recent.
*we’ve not conceded 8 for an awful long time. I make it about 116 years.
*I think it’s the first time we’ve lost 3 different players to red cards in the first 3 games of the season.
*don’t think it’s possible to be more bloody miserable
*the ladies won their league at Liverpool.
*our wine (to follow later) will calm our fevered brows
I will not be happy UNTIL we get revenge, i agree with Tom, it was a bad defeat, and until we remedy that, it will hang over our heads. I have gone from not liking Manu, hate the way they play football, hate the way they are the “nation’s hang out shield”, in fact i hate them more than i hate spuds, is that a sin?
Love what the great DB wrote: Quote:
For me, there are lots of great teams, but they don’t all rewrite football.
Of course, Manchester United was a big team, but what did they do different to what other teams had done before?
…in my opinion the team that stands out is the Barcelona of Guardiola. When they beat Man United [in the 2009 Champions League final]… I mean that was just from a different planet…
So there we have it, officially “ManU is a non changing to football” team, (and my thoughts)they continually played mediocre football with a 12th man.
Where did so many comedians spring out from ?
Paying attention .
First year students at Medical School were receiving their first anatomy class with a real dead human body.
They all gathered around the surgery table with the body covered with a white sheet. The professor started the class by telling them, “In medicine,it is necessary to have two important qualities as a doctor. The first is that you should not be disgusted by anything involving the human body.”
The Professor pulled back the sheet, stuck his finger in the anus of the corpse, withdrew it and stuck it in his mouth.
“Go ahead and do the same thing,” he told his students. The students initially freaked out, hesitated for several minutes, but eventually took turns sticking a finger in the anus of the corpse and sucking on it.
When everyone finished, the Professor looked at the class and told them, “The second most important quality is observation. I stuck in my middle finger but sucked on my index finger. Now learn to pay attention!”
Hugo Lloris: Hey lads, hey lads, where is the ball, where is the ball?
Jan Vertonghen: Hogo, sixth time today I am telling you, are you def, behind your back.
Actually statistically Spuds could match City, I guess that’s only proof how superior Citeh were. They could let T have ball and try what they want and still score 6.
TJ,
Be bold enough to direct your comment to me. Come on, don’t be passive-aggressive. I believe that jambug, would understand my comment when he sees it. But since you’ve decided to cry more than the bereaved, here is my response to you:
I suspect you were in a state of coma when we beat the great Man City 3-1 in Finland pre-season without Ozil and Flamini and with them using their full team, Kompany and all. The same trend has continued in the league where despite all the consensus about them being strongest and favourites, they’ve stumbled continuously against mediocre oppositions away from home. But because cliches die hard, the entire PL football following crowd continue to big ’em up.
Why?
If their strong squad can’t get a draw away to Sunderland why are you and their other praise singers keep saying they are favourites?
Anyway, it is your right to follow the crowd, irrespective of their direction and their destination. Keep at it.
Alls quiet at the COOP. The chickens are silent,pecking on the floor for a few scraps… far away they can hark! the cannons roar!…and deep in their chicken brains they know a cannon is always better than a chicken…
Amen
COYG!!!
Well this one was certainly more fun to watch 😉
At the end of the season when we got 3rd we also had Arteta, Santos and Park. The goal contribution from Benayoun that season proved crucial, especially his point getting tally towards the end of the season.
The one which was worse was hands down the 8-2 drubbing by Man Utd. I care not one jot by how much Spurs or any other team lose by, but I always hate Arsenal losing. A 1-0 loss for us is worse than that 6-0 loss suffered by Spurs.
Our best player on the field during that 8-2 defeat was Coquelin IMO.
I was relieved when we drafted in the recruits on the last day of the Summer transfer window and I stopped being sick.
So we beat City in a meaningless friendly and that’s some sort of indication of how we’ll perform against them in a proper competitive match? I doubt it.
We’ve done very well this season, the highlight being I think the away win at Dortmund, but the true test I believe will be away games at City, Chelsea, Pool and Manu. Well we lost at Manu so strike one.
We also have some other tough away games to come, Everton, Southampton and Spurs. We will see just how good we are after these fixtures.
As for people shouting “spend some fucking money”, that’s exactly what Wenger did, on Ozil. Wenger himself said that he wanted to make the fans happy and he did, many of them anyway.
Tom’s post was very good. I think our defeat was worse too but it’s hard to compare. We have no idea how it’ll affect Spurs in the long term. When it happened to us it appeared to galvanize the team and Wenger bought in several players, though that defeat alone probably wasn’t responsible for all his purchases.
It’s also a bit early to feel too smug as we’ve got a long season to go and we may still be battling for fourth with Spurs at the end of it. I doubt this though as Spurs look more like fighting for sixth.
Likely champions for many at the start of the season were City or Chelsea. Out of those two I’d pick Chelsea as City’s away form is poor. But we have a genuine chance though I feel we’ll need an exceptional striker in January to strengthen our challenge. I do see signs of a fighting spirit in this team that recalls the Arsenal team of 71 which wasn’t the best in the league but did the double.
Lastly, that win over Southampton was hard fought but showed once again how valued Giroud is as an all round player. I only heard the radio commentary but I noted he was working as hard in defence as he does up front. That’s the sort of player that every team cherishes, we’ve had too many lazy strikers in the recent past. A very good win as Southampton are a very useful team.
Agree with you on Giroud Rupert, Giroud is something special to this team, that is why Wenger will have to be very careful if he buys a striker in Jan, he needs someone who can back up, support and work with OG, rather than some big name who will come in at a cost to our strikers place. A very very tricky decision and task in a World Cup year, just cannot see him bringing in a high profile forward
@ Gord – That joke comes quiet often as an e-mail with a photo attachment .Will try to find it .In the meantime, look what I received in my inbox today .
Breaking news: 6 bombs
found in a taxi at Bukit Bintang, KL !
Open link to see live picture
http://p.twimg.com/AigDHYDCMAAE9eG.jpg
I suspected that it was a booby trap , so open with extreme care !
Isn’t it funny that those who have been accused of having AAA tendencies, you know who you are, have all come out and said our losing 8-2 to utd was worse than spurs’ 6 nil loss to city. Is it just coincidence? Methinks not….
Anyway, I say the spurs loss is worse;
– for us, the season was just starting, and many teams usually struggle at the start of the season. It takes a while to get into gear, off-season rustiness, etc, and its easy/possible to lose like that
-our back four included players like Djourou, Jenkinson & Traore, players who would never have started that match had our first teamers been available. Only Kos was our recognized centre back that day. As for the spuds…well, who were they missing?? Noone.
-After spending £100m, having had the new players for 4 months(enough time for them to have gelled), going on to lose by such a margin is unforgievable
-We did score twice, so one could argue we probably left ourselves more open at the back as we were trying to get even(watched Dortmund concede 2 goals against bayern in very quick succession in the last 7 minutes of the game, as they were trying to get back on level terms). Now I don’t really recall spurs being all over city yesterday.
-finally, did I mention spending £100m?
Spoilsport ?
A blonde, a redhead, and a brunette were all lost in the desert. They found a lamp and rubbed it. A genie popped out and granted them each one wish.
The redhead wished to be back home. Poof! She was back home.
The brunette wished to be at home with her family. Poof! She was back home with her family.
The blonde said, “Awwww, I wish my friends were here.”
It gets worse …
There was a blonde, a redhead, and a brunette. They were all trapped on an island and the nearest shore was 50 miles away. The redhead swam trying to make it to the other shore she swam 15 miles, drowned, and died.
The brunette swam 24 miles, drowned, and died.
The blonde swam 25 miles, got tired, and swam back.
some good arguements from differing opinions on which was worst. Mathmatically very similar, and neither will rank amongst the more favoured moments for the 2 clubs.
BUT – one fact , an undisputable fact makes it worse for Spurs…..it happened to them yesterday, it happened to us on 28/8/11, and we all know about the healing properties of time, or at least our concept of time….
AL,
Thanks for your response to Rupert Cook and the other “non-AAA” types 🙂 Arsenal is always the worst for this people. ALWAYS!
Rupert Cook,
You are described as an AAA because you always downplay Arsenal’s achievements as unimportant while blowing our failings out of proportion. You famously called our 2-0 victory over Bayern Munich inconsequential because our opponents didn’t take the game seriously having won so comfortably at the Emirates. I think the Bayern Munich players and their fans would disagree with you, at least for the last 5 minutes of the game.
Now, a victory over the billionaires of Manchester is also of no consequence because it was only pre-season. Yeah, I’m sure Pellegrini told his players to lose the match. He has also told them to only win home games and lose away to the likes of Cardiff and Sunderland. That is how champions are made!
You say that only results against certain teams will be the “true test” and because I have already written 2 articles debunking the fallacy of this line of thought, I’m not going to waste my time responding to that.
We all hate to see Arsenal lose but losing is part of the game. Genuine supporters don’t dwell on losses, painful as they might be. We dwell on our successes. At least, that is what we do at Untold.
For me the 8-2 was humiliating and showed how far off the pace we had become for various reasons already covered. The fact that we had gone from being a team that was unbeatable and had even clinched the title at OT to losing by such a big margin was really tough to deal with.
The situation for Totts is very different, we all knew last season that they would struggle without Bale however they did buy players before he departed. This is a big difference between ourselves and them, AW had stated on many occasions that Cesc, Nasri and RVP would not be sold. When they did go they left huge gaps and an issue in recruiting suitable replacements.
For Tottenham its a real smack in the face, as mentioned above they recruited prior to Bale leaving, they also invested heavily in trying to assure that they would not have the issues of the last 2 seasons of being very reliant on one man. The problem they now have is two fold, firstly they can’t do anything until January and secondly will they have funds available as have spent an awful amount of money?
To be fair to them whilst they have not been scoring they have been fairly tight at the back and Lloris has saved them on more then one occasion. The fact he had a bad game does not make him a bad keeper.
A bad day defensively is one thing, but the fact that they can’t score goals should be there biggest concern.
In answer to the question, i have physically seen Arsenal concede six on two occasions (Man U @ home and Everton away). I wasn’t at OT for the 8-2 but the scoreline does sound so much worst than 6-0 and i feel will be remembered for much longer
Bootoomee.
I am fully aware we beat Man City 3-1 in Finland pre-season friendly. However, do pre- season friendlies mean anything? The same team lost at home to Villa one week later.
You are correct, City have stumbled against mediocre oppositions away from home and their strong squad couldn’t get a draw away to Sunderland. Our 97-8 title winning team lost away to Derby County Sheffield Wednesday, Liverpool and Villa. Results like these happen every season, and any reasonable person would believe that having just employed a new manager with no previous PL experience, that their away form will improve. I hope I am wrong about that, but it is widely believed.
The reason they are favourites is because they have the most expensively assembled squad, because that squad looks very strong, and because every bookie in the land has made them favourites. You know, these bookies who just love paying out money.
You are correct, it is my right to follow the crowd, or another way of putting it would be to share the opinion of the majority, including the bookies who seldom get it wrong. Indeed, it is also my right to have an opinion that is different to yours.
TJ,
Thanks for the response. You are absolutely right. You have the right to use money spent as yard stick for success just as I have the right to use results obtained and consistency instead.
BTW, bookies are wrong every now and then while the majority opinion is even much less reliable as a prediction tool.
Peace.
Bootoomee
As I said, it is just my opinion, but it is based on than much more than money spent, it is based on squad strength, as I believe I have already outlined. If the bookies, the majority and myself are proved wrong, and the gunners finish top of the tree, and you are correct, nobody will be happier than myself.
Of course the 8-2 was worse. We are ARSENAL, f**king hell.
We are an elite team, a memeber of the G-14, and an internationlly known name.
They are just Spurs. Everybody, including and perhaps especially, their own fans should remember that: they are, and will always be, a mid-table team that hardly no one out of England has ever heard of.
End of story for me.
Hello Boo. Thanks for the welcome back, even if it did have a wee sting in the tail !
You are right, I am a staunch, loyal as can be, supporter of our fantastic Club, but I am, as I have said on many occassions, my nature, a natural born pessimist.
Before a game I so often fear the worst. I just cant help myself. But after a game, no matter what, I will try to see the possitives. Yes, even after the 8-2 I defended them to the hilt. Again I cant help myself. I feel it’s my duty, as a fan, to stick by my team. To take the possitives. To me it’s what being a ‘supporter’ is all about.
But back to the point and why.
Well yes we CAN win the PL. But so can City and Chelsea and possibly even one of the other protagonists. Yes we have got a fantastic squad. But so have City and Chelsea.
So why I am still in doubt?
I think my biggest worry is the psychological aspect.
Put it this way, I believe we have a better first 11 than Utd and a much better squad, therefore I thought the other week was our best chance of getting a result up at OT for years. Probably a draw but possibly even a win. But, alas, with our best chance in years we still didn’t. Why?
Because we still played as if we was in awe of them. By the time we realised they was nothing much to worry about it was too late. We did similar at home to BD in the CL. We put ourselves behind the 8 ball and then got done chaseing the game.
So that’s what’s behind my prediction.
It’s not our qualities, but the psychology, that I feel will be our undoing.
I so hope I am wrong and you are right but one things for sure I will be there with them enjoying the ride all the way. COYG
@Bootoome, I couldn’t really care less how you describe me, AAA, AKB or whatever. These are all stupid monikers used by lazy types who like everything black and white.
I argued why Munich wouldn’t have been too worried as they had a substantial lead, much as we would have felt if we’d been in the same position. They’re at home and have to concede three goals to lose. Of course they’re not going to be as pumped as we are especially after a first leg when we were comprehensively outplayed for long periods.
A pre season friendly means very little in the grand scheme of things. Also Pellegrini hadn’t had long to work with his players. If we had a new manager and we got beaten 3-1 by Everton, for example, pre season we’d all be declaring that the manager needed time to get to know his best team. You can make stupid sarcastic remarks about City losing to Cardiff and Sunderland but we’ve lost to poor teams away from home when we had a better squad than the current one. City, it seems, don’t travel well which is why we’re all expecting to beat them at home, aren’t we?
As for the true test of this team you haven’t debunked anything as far as I’m concerned.
Genuine supporters don’t dwell on losses, you say. Who are you to decide who is a genuine supporter and who is not? We all support Arsenal, some may do it differently from you but that makes he or she no less a supporter.
@Rupert Cook
You say “we all support Arsenal…….”
Sorry mate but I fail to see ANY evidence at all of that where you are concerned !!!!
‘support’ is the key word I think 😉
Well Walter.
i think people are often confused by the terms ‘supporter’, and ”fan’.
Just saying!
on a lighter note, just watching the WBA Villa game, does anyone else have an irrational dislike of Ag Bon Lahore? or is it irrational?
Tom
I agree with 5 of 6 points, well made too.
However I disagree with this:
“Fourthly, two years ago most sources associated with Arsenal FC had stated that funds were available to Wenger.”
Give us a credible source, please.
Wenger spent far more in the last two years than he had this season, but he sold players he didn’t want too as well.
@Rupert
B Munich were in a good position after their win in the 1st leg thats for sure, but in the second leg as soon as we scored early in the game I am sure their bottoms started twitching quite a lot and any feelings of security they may have had were very quickly forgotten. When we got a second I am sure they were almost shitting themselves. To say they were not giving it their all and took it easy is ridiculous and insulting to their professionalism.
Rupert,
The true test is winning, or at least drawing or not losing as many games out of 38 available in the League. It matters not a jot who gets beaten, as long as the 3 points are garnered.
Arsenal didn’t get 3 points at old Trafford, City didn’t get 3 points at Sunderland. It’s the same.
Munich would have been knocked out if Europe by us last year if it wasn’t for a flag happy linesman not spotting Theo’s run was clearly on side, so don’t tell us Munich were not trying.
Double canister
I only said “two years ago sources associated with Arsenal had stated funds were available to Wenger” for argument’s sake when discussing the 8-2 defeat to Man U which happened two years ago , but in fact Arsenal brass have been making those statements as early as 2005, when former chief executive Keith Edelman said the funds were available to Wenger if he wanted to use them , and again in 2007 when he reiterated
“We have got plenty of financial firepower to make the transfers Arsen wants to make. We had over 70 million of cash at the end of year and if Arsen wants to spend that money , we will make it available” .
Interestingly ,Arsenal’s net spend for the 2007-08 season was a negative 24,332,000 pounds according to Sporting Intelligence table of net spending by Premier League clubs
Ivan Gazidis has been saying the same things since he took over from Edelman in January 2009 .
The larger point I was making was that even though Arsenal had some injuries prior to that game, the main reasons for the 8-2 drubbing were departures of our key players in Sesc ,Nasri and Clichy and our club’s failure to replace them adequately during that TW which subsequently lead to drop in our squad’s morale.
It wasn’t my intention to relitigate Arsenal’s transfer policy , as that subject had been covered ad nauseam but I will say this much , in my 17 years of following Arsenal FC ,that defeat at OT was the darkest moment for me as a fan.
If you’re looking for sound information about Arsenal finances and how they compare to other big clubs in Europe, check out the Swiss Ramble “Arsenal – Money Don’t Matter 2 Night”.
Perhaps you’re familiar with his work but if not , I’m sure you’ll find it interesting.
It’s a must read for any Arsenal fan.
Take care.
“Two and two the mathematician continues to make four, in spite of the whine of the amateur for three, or the the cry of the critic for five.”
—James McNeill Whistler
http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/i-feared-being-trapped-at-arsenal-after-82-rout-says-armand-traore-6379661.html?origin=internalSearch
An interview with Traore a few weeks after the 8-2 game gives an insight into Arsenal that day
@Mick, I didn’t say Munich weren’t trying. If that were true we would have knocked them out. It’s very difficult for some to grasp that a middle ground exists. To some everything is black and white. I explained why Munich wouldn’t have been overwhelmed by the prospect of facing us with a three goal cushion. Many team, including ourselves, in that position would feel they had one foot in the next round, psychologically that would be only too natural. And yes I did say that when we got the second Munich looked flustered.
Double Canister’s point about Walcott knocking out Munich is an example of the black and white world some live in. Just because Walcott would have scored still doesn’t ensure we’d have knocked out Munich. But I appreciate this concept is hard for some to grasp and having explained it numerous times I refrain from bothering again.
@Tom, yes there have been several occasions when AFC have declared plenty of money available and yet we’ve been parsimonious. Wenger himself said some two years ago that if he wanted he could spend 40 million on a player.
@Swales68, the funniest thing in that article is the comment about “a dream move to QPR”. Surely nightmare would be more apt.
@ Swales68 – nice link .I do remember him coming off the Old Toilet pitch smiling .Glad he got his wish and has gone on to greater heights and left us all behind in his wake .
“All that is gold does not glitter; not all those that wander are lost.” —J. R. R. Tolkien
The “True Test” is playing against Stoke in a wet, windy, frigid Tuesday night in the middle of January. That will teach our boys some lesson.
@Rupert
The insinuation behind your comments are that Arsenal only pulled the two goals back because B Munich were not playing at 100%, psychological or not. That is insulting to both teams and I do not accept it. I know you nearly always try to water down our achievements whilst making excuses for the oppositions shortcomings, why I do not know, but on this matter you are clearly following the well trodden anti Arsenal media line of refusing to give Arsenal the credit they deserve for a very fine victory.
@Mick
Agreed. The B Munich away win was a hard fought match and the result of that win really inspired (via increased confidence) our team, subsequently they embarked on a great run until the season end. Only the more snide anti Arsenal commenter, of which the rupert is a prime example, would try to play down that great achievement.
@Mick, it wasn’t a total victory though was it because you see we lost the tie and went out. What I’m saying is plainly obvious, it’s easy to grasp, but you’re welcome to your view and I’ll stick to mine.
@rupert (still a depressive AAA sewer rat – who tries to be a stealth rat by posting deferred comments!)
I note in your debate with Mick you have now changed the goalposts – so when you cannot win on your initial point you try to argue on a different one. As usual, you are the one who lost the debate and no amount of deliberate distraction can disguise that.