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Premier League Betting and Odds

How the Deloittes Rich List tells us something vital that everyone seems to miss.

By Tony Attwood

A couple of years back I had the temerity to question the financial blogger’s Swiss Ramble’s insight into one aspect of football finance.  The level of abuse I received in return was astonishing – it was a sort of journalistic equivalent of “not fit to wear the shirt”.

So each time I see the Deloitte Rich List of football clubs come out, and I want to make a comment which is perhaps a little different from the comments elsewhere, I pause – although not for long.

For there is something hidden in these figures, which I think most commentators have not focussed on although it is tucked away in the Deloitte report, but not in the press release that has gone out to the national media, and which they have all faithfully copied.

As far as I can see Arsenal are the only club in the Deloitte’s list to receive more than 40% of revenues from matchday activities.

The move to the Ems took up revenue by 69% on matchday since the stadium was opened.  But commercial revenues have only provided 11% of the total revenue growth in that same period.

We all know why – because special deals were done in terms of kit sponsorship, naming rights, etc to reduce the level of the mortgage.

Now this is incredibly important (and this is the point I think others miss) because it is much harder to expand match day income than it is to expand commercial income.  For match days you can put up your prices a bit and try and sell more stuff in the shop, but in terms of the figures here, once you have a full stadium, you can’t do much more (except build a new stadium, which takes time and is expensive).

But commercial is a totally different matter.  With commercial income the sky is the limit.  Man U have shown this in the past with crazy deals for their training kit and everything else.  There’s probably an official Man U toothbrush sponsored by someone to the tune of £100m a year.

So here’s my point.  Arsenal have all that growth to come.  It won’t be incredibly easy, but with economies growing again, it won’t be impossibly hard.   And most importantly it will be a hell of a lot easier to achieve than the growth that clubs which have already maximised their marketing revenue will be trying to get.

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In short, this is take off moment for Arsenal. To make the point take a look at what the Rich List in 2011 and what it looked like with only matchday revenue were included…

Top 20 matchday revenue generating clubs
Rank Club Revenue (€m) Money League pos
1 Real Madrid 129.1 1
2 Manchester United 122.4 3
3 Arsenal 114.7 5
4 FC Barcelona 97.8 2
5 Chelsea 82.1 6
6 Bayern Munich 66.7 4
7 Liverpool 52.4 8
8 Hamburger SV 49.3 13
9 Tottenham Hotspur 44.9 12
10 Celtic 43.4 n/a
11 Benfica 40.2 n/a
12 Internazionale 38.6 9
13 Atlético de Madrid 35.9 17
14 Rangers 31.5 n/a
15 AC Milan 31.3 7
16 VfB Stuttgart 30.2 19
17 Aston Villa 29.8 20
18 Manchester City 29.8 11
19 Valencia 28.4 n/a
20 Werder Bremen 27.8 n/a

Source: Deloitte analysis.

There were ONLY three clubs that are able to take more than €100m (£81.9m) from their matchdays – Real Mad, Manchester Untidy and Arsenal, with FC Barcelona lurking behind and wanting to catch up by building a new bigger stadium.

If you ain’t got the stadium, the brand, the corporate hospitality of Club Level, the shops etc etc you can’t do it.

Little Liverpool earned 53% of Barcelona’s income and they can’t do anything about it other than use up all their reserves and every bank loan they can scrape together to build a new ground.  And even then they are stuffed because

  • a) at the moment they are not in the Champs League
  • b) they are in an economically weaker area than some other clubs
  • c) their supporter long term history has some ugly moments in it
  • d) they don’t have the country-wide supporter base of Man U
  • e) they are not in London, with all that entails vis a vis visiting business people, A list celebs, top brass, royalty and the like.
  • f) they are going to struggle to put their prices up to anything like Arsenal’s level
  • g) they have a history of going bust, as do Arsenal.  Fortunately for us, Arsenal last went bust in 1910 whereas RBS put Liverpool’s loans in its “toxic debt” provision in 2010.

The fact that being a big fish in your own area is not enough is shown by the fact that Celtic left the top 20 money list in 2006/7.   Rangers (now in the third division in Scotland) left it even earlier.

Of course Arsenal have been helped enormously by the fact that their dependence on matchday revenue during the Wenger era, because he delivered Champions League football every season, and thus more matches and more income.  In terms of matchday money (not TV money) the Europa League can help because it has a lot of games in it, so in this regard Tottenham are helped somewhat, but they are hindered by the smallness of the stadium.

(Incidentally I still stick with my view that unless Tottenham’s tax haven owner pays for the new stadium, the club is going to go through the same six year trauma of living on match day rather than marketing revenue as Arsenal have just done.   It can be done, as Arsenal have shown, but you need a manager of the magnitude of Arsene Wenger to do it, because you need Champions League year on year, a youth system that brings through good players, and the ability to pick up brilliant players who you can sell on at a profit.  It is not nice, especially when the latter happens, but it gets you through to the next stage).

Indeed Arsenal’s experience in setting up a new stadium, paying for it with front-loaded sponsorship deals, and patiently waiting for the money to roll in, is a model that is becoming popular.

Roma, Juventus, Olympique Lyonnais and Marseille – are all following the Arsenal model as a way of securing their financial future and from that looking to secure their footballing success.  What we will see in the future are not comments about Arsenal’s years without a trophy, but the genius of Arsenal’s team in creating a model in which a club can take itself up another level or two, without a benefactor and without courting bankruptcy.  It will, I believe, become known as The Arsenal Model and it will be lauded everywhere.

However this positive view is not shared by everyone.  The Daily Mail (a right wing anti-EU English newspaper) says today that the figures this year show that Arsenal will be in serious trouble if they don’t make the Champions League next season, which is a bit like saying Man U will be in trouble if they are relegated.  True, but not very likely.

Top 20 broadcast revenue generating clubs

Despite all the whining about the years without a trophy, broadcasters want to show Arsenal on TV worldwide.   Liverpool may have won more league trophies, Man City may score more goals this season, Chelsea may play in the Champions League final more recently, but Arsenal are right up there when it comes to TV money.

Meanwhile Italian clubs that have traditionally followed the Spanish model of taking the money from TV individually have now started to share it, and that is affecting the income of Internazionale, AC Milan and Juventus.   The Premier League’s broadcast revenue distribution model is the most equal of the major European leagues, which again is why huge matchday income is good, and is another indicator as to why a world-wide recognition of the club (something that Man U have in spades, Arsenal also have, but Chelsea and Man City lack).

Incidentally Arsenal get about 30% of their broadcasting income from the Uefa Champs League, which is another reason to celebrate Mr Wenger’s achievement.

Of course clubs can force their way into the Money League through benefactor deals, as with Paris Saint-Germain.  Their revenue has quadrupled in three years, but FFP questions still remain.

Here’s the summary of the report…

The Deloitte Football Money League – 2012/13 revenue

Position (prior
year position)
Club 2012/13 Revenue (€m) (2011/12 Revenue) 2012/13 Revenue (€m)
(2011/12 Revenue)
1 (1) Real Madrid 518.9 (512.6) 444.7 (414.7)
2 (2) FC Barcelona 482.6 (483) 413.6 (390.8)
3 (4) Bayern Munich 431.2 (368.4) 369.6 (298.1)
4 (3) Manchester United 423.8 (395.9) 363.2 (320.3)
5 (10) Paris Saint-Germain 398.8 (220.5) 341.8 (178.4)
6 (7) Manchester City 316.2 (285.6) 271 (231.1)
7 (5) Chelsea 303.4 (322.6) 260 (261)
8 (6) Arsenal 284.3 (290.3) 243.6 (234.9)
9 (13) Juventus 272.4 (195.4) 233.5 (158.1)
10 (8) AC Milan 263.5 (256.9) 225.8 (207.9)
11 (12) Borussia Dortmund 256.2 (196.7) 219.6 (159.2)
12 (9) Liverpool 240.6 (233.2) 206.2 (188.7)
13 (15) Schalke 04 198.2 (174.5) 169.9 (141.2)
14 (14) Tottenham Hotspur 172 (178.2) 147.4 (144.2)
15 (11) Internazionale 168.8 (200.6) 144.6 (162.3)
16 (19) Galatasaray 157.0 (129.7) 134.6 (104.9)
17 (20) Hamburger SV 135.4 (121.1) 116 (98)
18 (new) Fenerbahçe 126.4 (103.2) 108.3 (83.5)
19 (new) AS Roma 124.4 (115.9) 106.6 (93.8)
20 (new) Atlético de Madrid 120.0 (107.9) 102.8 (87.3)

Source: Deloitte Football Money League 2014

Incidentally you might like to note that the figures excludes player transfer fees, VAT and other sales related taxes.  The lack of player trading at a profit reduces Arsenal’s position and enhances that of the benefactor clubs.

So there’s my point – Arsenal have done the hard bit of growing matchday revenue.  They’ve gone through the pain of the front loaded sponsorship deals to pay for the stadium.  Now they can grow their commercial income and expand their world-wide base.  That’s all looking good.

Meanwhile Man City are still 100% dependent on persuading Uefa that their Etihad sponsorship deal of £400m is legit within FFP.  Maybe they will – but it is a risk of the type Arsenal are not facing.

But here’s a little twist that I have not seen before.  Man City suggested yesterday that they are NOT really getting as much  income as the Deloitte figures suggest.  It is the first time a club has suggested Deloitte is not quite right.  Everyone who studies Man City and FFP is getting baffled but I think we have just seen the first move in Man City’s battle with Uefa over FFP.

Meanwhile, I think my original point is valid.  To understand where clubs are going you have to compare the types of income they have, and now easy it is to grow from that point.  Arsenal are, in my view (and as always I point out that I am absolutely not an economist), ready to roll.


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69 comments to How the Deloittes Rich List tells us something vital that everyone seems to miss.

  • Armin

    Thanks Tony for great article. I have question. Am I right in belief that our incomes structure gives us more freedom, or let me say make us less depending of results? I mean, sponsorship money, especially with top clubs, is strictly dependent of success. So, in example, Man Utd will probably lose more money missing CL than we would in same situation (talking in percents of total income)?
    What again, if I am right is another proof of Le Boss ingeniousness.

  • Stuart

    Superb article Tony, thanks for the time taken to produce it.

    A talking point that I believe will come up is this part of your article : “What we will see in the future are not comments about Arsenal’s years without a trophy, but the genius of Arsenal’s team in creating a model in which a club can take itself up another level or two, without a benefactor and without courting bankruptcy”

    The clubs building new stadiums now will be doing it at the start of a period of growth as opposed to at the end of it (like Arsenal did) – you can lay money on the fact this will be the next criticism, “Arsenal should have seen the economy about to burst” blah blah blah…. The short answer is we did, Wenger said about it constantly but has been forever ridiculed for suggesting football would have financial difficulties.

  • Stuart

    Tony, just one thing. Are the column headers correct on your table? The two on the right have the same name but contain different data sets.

  • Jez

    I just don’t see how man city, Chelsea or psg are ahead of arsenal in revenue. There world wide fan base isn’t as big and there match day revenue isn’t all that either. There is something wrong with deloittes figures.

    The fact that end of year accounts show profit for arsenal, bayern Munich and Real Madrid and yet Chelsea, Man City and psg all end up with massive losses is what deloittes ought to be focusing on.

    Really what we need is a list of who meets FFP and who doesn’t would be good.

    One final point that I would like you to talk about is tradition. I am an arsenal fan who can’t stand spurs but they have for years been been the Yids and their team the yiddo’s. Even the PM David Cameron has said that it is their tradition and the FA should excuse the chant because it a term of affection for the team bit a slur on the Jewish population. 3 fans in the last week have been arrested and received life long punishments from the FA.

    Now as arsenal fan and someone with a part Jewish family i do not feel that spurs fans are doing anything wrong. We as arsenal fans have traditions ourselves, it would be horrible if our traditions were outlawed. Could you do an article on this, raising the issues and clarify the why the FA are taking this stance and if spurs fans can bring an injunction against the FA to stop their fans for being penalised. It seems that political correctness is eroding the world of football.

  • crispen

    Lets Roll

  • Brickfields Gunners

    First they ignore you ;
    then the laugh at you ;
    then they fight you;
    then you WIN . – Mahatma Gandhi .

    I’ve always wanted to put this inspirational video for quite some time now .I do think that it has some relevance to this article and the preceding one on fear.
    It’s a talk by Bunker Roy on TED, and its about 20mins
    long . Do take the time and enjoy !

  • finsbury


    It is almost as if Arsenal Football Club has had some kind of a cunning plan…


  • Mark

    Tony, most economists don’t know what they are taking about so you don’t need to apologize. Income is key and it has to balance the expenses. This is not clear from the Rich List. That is what is really important for a club to be robust. The clubs that have high debts are vulnerable and are those with income from benefactors. Leeds, Rangers illustrate how a club can shine while the inside rots and eventually collapses.

  • Brickfields Gunners

    Meanwhile at a club near you ….×230.png

    Goodnight guys !

  • Persian gunner

    Fantastic article!

  • marcus

    Economies growing?

    Some economies though are shrinking…so maybe this is one that really will ‘even out in the end’

  • SouthernGunner

    Off topic but thought you’d all appreciate this article. A table of clubs that are best producers of players in Europe. Guess who leads the English clubs! Hint: it’s not the Spuds.

  • sperez

    Wenger: ‘I’m surprised Mata is allowed to go because he is a great player. And Chelsea are strengthening a direct opponent.’


    Wenger should keep his stupid mouth shut. He is really an embarrassment.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Well he is not the only one of whom we think that… 🙂

  • Rupert Cook

    @Sperez, well Chelsea don’t have to play Manu again this season. Unfortunately we do and their selling Mata will indirectly help them as City also have to play Manu.

    Not sure what Wenger’s moaning about saying it’s unfair that Chelsea can sell Mata because Manu will now have a stronger team and those that haven’t played them twice will suffer. It’s a transfer window and that’s what happens. Wenger didn’t seem too bothered about morals when he signed Arshavin some years back. Of course we were flagging then and needed a high profile signing, bit like Manu do now. I expect this is just a ruse from AW to let us know he’s not getting any reinforcements. The usual complacency setting in because we’re top now, I hope not. Well let’s hope we still are at the end of May.

  • Dave C


    Arshavin didn’t transfer from one direct rival to another. He came from another league completely. If you can’t see that being a difference, I’m not sure what you can see.

  • Mick

    The sewers must be full, the rats are coming out in pairs.

  • Mick

    @Brickfields Gunners
    Thanks for the Bunker Roy link, what an inspirational man he is.

  • Jax

    @ Mick
    The blog Nazis (Godwin alert) also

  • Valentin

    Regarding the Mata quote, Wenger had already stated that he is against a mid season transfer window unless it is during mid season break. His reasoning is that it is potentially unfair. Mata transfer is just a case in point.
    Wenger also said that transfer window should close before the start of the season. But because he lives in the real world he just has to accept the rules. That does not mean that you cannot comment on them and show the flaws in them.
    Personally I think that Mata’s transfer may be driven by Mata desire to secure a place in Spain World Cup team, but it is also financially motivated. Manchester United offer is likely to be the best Chelsea will ever receive for Mata. Even if Mata score a hat trick in the final, no other clubs is likely to offer anything near 34 millions in the summer. PSG were Interested, but have decide to launch a mega offer for POGBA in the summer, so no go on their part. Barcelona are in financial trouble and have an overload of small, clever passers of the ball, so again no. Footballistically Real Madrid are still trying to accommodate Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema, Di Maria, Modric and Alonso. From a galactico perspective Mata does not have that universal star appeal. Italian clubs are just broke and could not even match his current wages. So Chelsea is just taking the best offer available to them. In order to comply with FFP Chelsea must limit the operational loss of 2013-2014 to less than 13 millions. De Bruyne sale may have helped, but it has been more than offset by the purchase of Matic. Buying Sallah is just to equilibrate the numbers. Chelsea sell a player, but buy another one. Maybe not as good as Mata, but one that fits better in Mourinho football philosophy of hard working midfielders. Also one who will be willing to accept his status of luxury sub without causing a raucous inside the team.
    However if they want to but that super star striker (Cavani, Falcao, Diego Costa), they will still need to raise millions or save from their biggest expenditure: wages. Expect to see a lot of players leaving Chelsea this summer. Mostly the one with high wages: Lampard, Cole, Essien, Terry, Samuel Eto, Demba Ba. But a certain number of finger or U21 players may well be culled much earlier than anticipated. That may cause them to fall foul of the 8 home grown players rule imposed on premiership squad.

  • insideright

    Knowing the precise timing of the Deloittes calculations would be instructive. Are they, for instance, before the payment of the Emirates shirt and stadium sponsorship renewals announced last summer and which (we are told0 was somewhat front-end-loaded? It’s certainly before the new kit sponsorship kicks in (supposedly another £20m per season from this summer).
    Whatever is the case Tony’s general point is right and it highlights the fact that there is a long term strategy being played out. People talk about ticket prices at the Emirates being high as though it is a new phenomenon. The truth is that Arsenal, even while they were at Highbury, were keeping prices at premium levels (e.g. via large scale seat installation) over a period of decades. The difference is that, at the new stadium, they have proved that they can sell out at these price levels for the vast majority of games despite, so famously, not winning trophies.
    If this really is the start of a new era of more tangible ‘success’ on the pitch what price for a box in three years time? And how much will it cost to put your name on the shirt next time the contract comes up for renewal?

  • Notoverthehill

    Tony, you forgot to mention ALL the caveats!

    Without becoming too technical, Deloitte are the auditors for a few of the clubs that are on their list. The International, the UK and Spanish Accounting rules are NOT the same.

    The Arsenal Accounts are prepared under the UK Generally Accepted Accounting Practice.

    Match Day Revenues for The Arsenal, include staging appearance fees receivable from a fellow subsidiary, Arsenal Stadium Management Company Ltd.

    One does have to drill into the subsidiary accounts. For those dated 31st May 2013, I am still waiting to download and have them at my finger tips.

    The Swiss Ramble is a “charming chancer” as an Arsenal supporter, but he is not an accountant.

  • Rufusstan

    All I have heard said about it all day, is how the Deloitte list is becoming pointless.

    When a side like PSG leaps up the list, and no one can see why, you look deeper. In fact from the table, PSG’s income has grown by around 180 million Euros. Strangely enough, this year they signed that strange tourism deal to promote the Qatar Tourism Authority, at around 150 million Euros a year (and will get bigger). —

    So they have become one of the largest clubs in the world, simply because the owners have pumped money into the club via the front door (sponsorships from related organizations), rather than the usual backdoor/loan route.

    (By the way the estimates on the sort of deal PSG have got is 5 milion or so. Make of that what you will).

  • Rufusstan

    Sorry, meant normal value on things like the QTA deal is 5 million or so a year.

  • bjtgooner

    An informative and interesting take on the Deloitte Rich List. All Arsenal fans will look forward to improving our relative buying power over the next few seasons.

    But how pathetic have the double talkers become: –

    1.sperez – “Wenger should keep his stupid mouth shut.”

    2. the rupert – “Not sure what Wenger’s moaning about”

    Are the sewer rats smoking something illegal in their nest?

  • Rupert Cook

    @Dave C. Wenger said he detests the January window which is fine. Not a fan of it myself but I doubt he’d shy away from buying someone from another EPL team if he thought it would benefit our club. At least I hope not. The fact is he’s happy to buy in it if he wants to and if he’s so worried about fairness then no players should be bought in from anywhere. Anyway I guess we’re not buying Berbatov or Remy, not great players but useful as back up for Giroud.

    @Jax, yeh the usual fascists have donned their brown shirts in a desperate attempt to quell free speech.

  • bjtgooner

    Ah rupert – you have it all wrong – we’re really pussycats……the trouble is your a rat!

  • Mike T


    Whilst you may well indeed be right about the offer that Man Utd have made for Mata being the biggest Chelsea are ever likely to receive a lot of the conclusions you draw about Chelsea and FFP are, I am afraid, based on taking headlines as being Gospel as opposed to joining up the dots.

    Irrespective of anything else I am not expecting any club to receive anything other than a slap on the wrist for the main thrust of FFP although I don’t doubt that a club will be banned for failing to settle their tax debts.

    Quite simply for the first monitoring period of FFP Chelsea will meet the requirements

    Chelsea’s 2012/13 losses in accounting terms, and not FFP terms, were £49 million so the question is will be in the figures improve in 2013/14. If they do and that’s another basic requirement of FFP met.

    So is there evidence to suggest that either Chelsea’s income is increasing or the expenditure is reducing?

    Wage expenditure and player amortisation probably will be about the same but for the purposes of this exercise lets say that it will increase by £20 million

    Reflected in Chelsea accounts in 2013/14 will be approx. £25 million extra EPL broadcasting monies, £10-15 million additional CL broadcasting & prize money,£10 million extra from the new Addidas deal,£4 million extra from the Samsung deal. In addition Chelsea have new deals with Gazprom, Audi, Delta Airlines and others estimated to bring in approx. £10 million.
    Being conservative that will mean about £50-£60 million. The transfer profit from selling Kevin De Bryne alone will just about match the 2012/13 transfer profit. So add in a conservative £25 million profit from Matas transfer that about £85 million even if I have inflated by say 25% more than enough to wipe out last years trading loss

    You then make this assumption that high wage earners are going because of FFP the facts are that again in the next set of accounts some high earners have already left but others like Cole & Lampard will be leaving not because of FFP but more because they will no longer be able to play at the level required.
    As for fringe players moving on then yes that is probable but I think your imagination is running away with you about youth players for in terms of FFP their wages, training costs etc are discounted so there is no reason to let them go early.

  • Mike T

    Oh and I forgot to say there is no requirement that a club has to have 8 home grown players the rule is that you can have no more than 17 non home grown players over the age of 21.

  • mk

    Rupert and Sperez, why do you both come out to complain about Wenger’s quote without even reading the interview?

    He is saying that he doesn’t like the January transfer window (like he has always said) and that big money clubs can misuse it tactically to gain an advantage like Chelsea just has.

    With no limit to money, Chelsea and Man City could just loan out large numbers of good players to other non title challenging teams and then sell players to teams they have already played twice so they can take points off their rivals.

    Wenger sees the big picture and you two are unable to even read more than a headline between you.

  • Va cong

    Mk talking to brick wall sperez Rupert Cook is in fact pointless. True story.

  • Brickfields Gunners


    When the angel of death came to Joe Smith, to accompany him to his real home, Joe dismissively responded “I am not ready to die as I have so much left to do. Do you mind coming back later?”

    The Angel replied, sorry your time is up and we must leave now.

    Joe enquired, “Don’t you know who I am? I am Joe Smith, one of the richest men in the world.

    The Angel nodded “I know all about you as I do everyone else; now hurry along, Let’s go.”

    Joe pleaded; “if I were to give you 10% of my fortune, which is over a billion dollars, will you turn a blind eye and return a year later?”

    The Angel shook his head and replied, “you don’t seem to understand Joe. It is time to go”

    For the next few moments, Joe tried his best to negotiate with the angel giving away more of his fortune for lesser time. He finally succumbed and offered “if I were to give you all my fortune, which is 10 billion dollars, will you give me 5 minutes so that I can call my wife and children and tell them that I love them? I have never told them this and it is very important to me that they know how I feel about them. I also need to seek forgiveness from 2 people that I have hurt the most. All I ask is 5 minutes!”

    The Angel paused and looked at Joe curiously and asked, “how long did it take you to make your 10 billion dollars?”

    Joe replied, “30 years my friend – it took me a whole 30 years – it’s a great deal in exchange for 5 minutes, take it – you will never have to work another day in your life. “

    The Angel shook his head and said “I really do not understand you human beings! If you are willing to give up 30 years of your lives’ work for 5 minutes, then why did you not make the most of every minute while you had it? How did you value your time? Where were your priorities? Why did you not say or do the things that really mattered?”

    The lights went off a second later, Joe was gone. His 10 billion dollars could not buy him the time to do what really mattered.

  • Shakabula Gooner

    “Wenger should keep his stupid mouth shut. He is really an embarrassment”.

    Wenger is a sixty something year old and has been in football as a player and manger for over 40years. He expressed a personal opinion in the business; an opinion that is not directly related on how well or poorly he performs as an Arsenal coach and yet, you will not allow nor respect the right to the opinion…it is an embarrassment, you said. Though it is your right to disagree with the opinion,you wouldn’t do so with and quality of reasoned rebuttal but will simply adjudge it as stupid!

    Will you take that from your child? That he/she calls you an embarrassment and stupid on matters he/she disagrees with you? Will you breed that in your child? When and why is your hatred for Wenger so deep, so red hot and so vitriolic?

  • Mandy Dodd

    Sperez – such a rare priviledge to see you on here these days…not sure why we see so little of you. I would remind you that Wenger lives in a country with free speech, so within reason, can say pretty much what he wants to, he is not the only one to question the wisdom of the Jan transfer window, or indeed the way the richer clubs can exert a degree of advantage through the loan system, Chelsea being a prime example. Still Jose sells Mata to Utd, but wont loan us Ba, an underhand compliment to us I am sure you will agree.
    On the subject of free speech,I remember awhile back on here you quoting the Mayor of Manaus – apparently he made a few disparaging remarks about English football. Fair enough, he is entitled to do so,some may even agree with him on some points, but I take it this Mayor has also apologised for the deaths and delays associated with the WC stadium in this city?

  • Tasos

    @Mandy Dodd

    sperez likes to think he knows best.

    Remember these words of wisdom.

    August 30, 2013 at 8:03 pm
    Flamini has been nothing more than a crock and very mediocre player at AC Milan. Rossoneri will tell you that. One good season at Arsenal and that’s all.
    That fact he was resigned by Wenger is a complete joke. AKBs will probably say ‘Oh yes, but he has PL experience and he didn’t cost anything. Shrewd business by Wenger’. Bunch of accountants, the wages. The clubs resources are still being wasted again. It seems Wenger has shifted the deadwood (after many years bleeding the club’s coffers) only to replace them with more of the same. Flamini now is shite.
    Once again Wenger is more worried about what other clubs are doing instead of making his f*cking job. No wonder Arsenal are shambles. If he concentrates all energy and time he wastes criticising other clubs affairs on Arsenal, maybe things wouldn’t have deteriorated so fast.
    £7.5m a year for incompetence, no accountability and having fun making fans look like mugs? I know why Wenger doesn’t want to leave…

  • Stuart

    If people ignore Sperez he will eventually stay away, it’s the reaction he craves so he can then go and masturbate. As he adds nothing to debate, there’s no real reason to respond. You’ll find life much easier, trust me.

  • Armin

    Well, about unfairness of January transfer window Le Boss spoke two years ago as well, and it was about the same issue just than it was New Castle who reinforced significantly (or was it was believed to be that way than), whom we still had to play twice (I recon). So Wenger is consistent in that opinion, and I tend to agree with him. Though I hardly believe Mata can save Manure season, but still…
    And about Sperez, come on you all, dont be such hard on him, its not easy to be Sperez those days. Imagine how hard it is to believe in what other tell you and not to your barre eyes.

  • Stuart

    Good call Tasos, the other frequenting sewer rat also once wrote:

    “But every wrong decision is game-changing because the game follows an alternative path to the one it would have followed.”

    This contradicts his previous statement of:-
    “I can’t recall a game where a team got a last minute penalty and robbed us of all three points or we were not allowed a penalty in the last minute, the only scenarios where you can really declare points as lost.”

    Further proof that sewer rats eat sh!t and therefore talk sh!t

  • Nelson Wong

    I am not 100% agree with Wenger but what he says makes is logical and reasonable from his position.

    It actually put in an insurace in his word that he does not wanna point it at Chelsea doing it even though it is puzzling, rather he question it being allow in the rules.

    Sir F, the Special One, and many managers are far more vocal on rules and game play. I do not see anything wrong talking about it. When the Special One pretends to be the guardian of English way of football, that is what I call an embarrassment.

    As for FFP, I think they launch this stadium project based on the fact that FFP will be in place soon. Securing a stable ticket income means securing a financial advantage.

    It turns out the governing body keep delaying it. As a result Arsenal’s reuslt suffer for longer period of time due to money other teams are able to get from their owners.

    I do not simply see the Oilers backing their teams for fun. They can spend a lot of money and may be they do not expect the team to get them a big income but there is a point when they don’t want to pour the money into the team.

    From what I see, their strategy is simple. They try to boost up their team with as much money as they can before FFP. The team will deliver some result and make a big name worldwide. With that, the team can secure certain level of TV money and kid sponsorship etc and will be able to live on itself. It might be working with Chelsea because they had the most time to do it and they got The Special One to deliver the result almost instantly. All the other teams aren’t that successful.

  • marcus

    @Tasos- worth repeating.

    sperez likes to think he knows best.
    Remember these words of wisdom.
    August 30, 2013 at 8:03 pm
    Flamini has been nothing more than a crock and very mediocre player at AC Milan. Rossoneri will tell you that. One good season at Arsenal and that’s all.
    That fact he was resigned by Wenger is a complete joke. AKBs will probably say ‘Oh yes, but he has PL experience and he didn’t cost anything. Shrewd business by Wenger’. Bunch of accountants, the wages. The clubs resources are still being wasted again. It seems Wenger has shifted the deadwood (after many years bleeding the club’s coffers) only to replace them with more of the same. Flamini now is shite.
    Once again Wenger is more worried about what other clubs are doing instead of making his f*cking job. No wonder Arsenal are shambles. If he concentrates all energy and time he wastes criticising other clubs affairs on Arsenal, maybe things wouldn’t have deteriorated so fast.
    £7.5m a year for incompetence, no accountability and having fun making fans look like mugs? I know why Wenger doesn’t want to leave…

  • Valentin

    @Mike T,
    Reading Arsène Wenger today’s interview, it looks like he also think that the sale of Mata has been done principally for financial consideration.
    If you listen to Platini and others important people at UEFA, it is clear that UEFA will show some teeth. At least a couple of big clubs will be victim of FFP, and be made of an example.
    Chelsea being the poster boy for past excesses, and having promised that they will comply are one of the most exposed. IMHO, they are very vulnerable on that front and they know it. PSG, MONACO, some of the Russian clubs are the other ones. The feeling in others country (Germany, Belgium, Poland, …) that some clubs are financially cheating run very high. Platini has to appease those FA and their clubs. Do not underestimate their anger.
    Manchester City have been clever in the sense that their sponsoring deals are long term deals. Done with friend companies, but because of the Qatar interconnected businesses and political clout, it will be extremely difficult to prove that the sponsoring deals have been signed over their real market value.

  • Mike T

    I cant believe am going to do this but I think Wenger has a point about the transfer window and he went to great length to qualify his comment by pointing out that Chelsea were doing nothing wrong. Chelsea didn’t make the rule and its the same for all clubs can, if they so desire conduct activity in the transfer window after the season starts.

    Lets not forget the season started on 17 August, by the time Ozil had signed (2 Sept 2013) you had played Villa, Fulham and Spurs. No mention of his signing being unfair on Spurs!

    All managers do whatever they can to gain that additional inch or whatever for their respective clubs. Lets face it you would be really disappointed if they didn’t

    Everyone making the assumption that Mata going to Man Utd will be a success, to be fair he probably will be but, you never know how he will settle or how Moyes will set them up as somehow he will be desperate to try and fit Rooney, RVP and Mata in unless of course Rooney is either going to miss out or he is off?

    I do however think Wenger has deliberately failed to mention just how much Mata going to Man Utd actually benefits you as well and either many on here have either failed to grasp the potential benefits to you or are deliberately ignoring them

    Let me explain.

    You have us at SB. Everyone, with the exception of Mourinio rates Mata so surely if Jose is wrong our squad that will be able to face you is weaker so that surely means your chances of getting a result improve.

    You have Man Utd at home and in truth with or without Mata you would need to be beating them . Will Mata improve them as a team , will he settle? Who knows but I personally cant see how you can fit Rooney , Mata and RVP in the same team

    In truth its Man City who have to play at Old Trafford where possibly there will be greatest impact and that possibly will benefit both Chelsea and Arsenal.

  • Mike T


    I have no doubt that UEFA want to show teeth but wanting and being able to are two very different things.
    Chelsea never intended to leave huge margins in meeting FFP . Why would or should they?
    I am not a betting man but the deal Samsung as our shirt sponsor ends at the end of next season and I will not be at all surprised in Gazpron become Chelsea’s new sponsor at and deal that will dwarf the current one and be close to the deal that Man Utd
    Yes Man City have been smart but don’t underestimate those who operate at Chelsea and just how far their contacts in the business and political world extend and by virtue of that how commercial capital can be made, if needs be, from those contacts
    As for selling Mata of course its a financial thing. Mata , rightly or wrongly, isn’t a first pick for Mourino and when someone offers you in effect close to £30 million accounting profit then you would be daft not to sell.

    We will have to see how FFP impacts but as I have said before I wouldn’t hold my breath if you really expect any of the big clubs to receive any sort of damaging sanction

  • Concerning the headings on the column, sadly I don’t have the documentation I used with me at work (where I am now) but I think in the second table, the column on the right is the results from the previous year. Sorry – just ignore that column on the right.

  • Rupert Cook

    @Stuart, you’re not very bright are you? Read what I’ve wrote and then consider it before you talk nonsense. Oh and btw, eat your own shit asshole, your brain needs some nourishment. There, that’s the kind of response you want isn’t it? Now go and join your fellow fascists. (Yes sometimes even I get tired of idiotic sprats abusing me).

    @MK, your point is a good one about rich clubs loaning out players to lesser teams. Not sure they do that yet. I did actually say that I know Wenger doesn’t like the January window but what’s the point moaning about what other teams do. Concentrate on your own squad and if you think it needs augmenting do something about it. It looks like AW is happy with what he has. Well I know he knows his squad better than we do but I think it needs one or two signings to deal with the tough fixtures to come.

    @Mike T. good point about Ozil. Don’t dare to accuse Wenger of hypocrisy though you’ll get all sorts of abuse on here. Personally I loathe your club but you seem like a decent chap, more so than some of the neanderthals who post on here who support Arsenal.

  • Rupert Cook

    For the benefit of Stuart the idiot I will explain what he can’t grasp.

    “But every wrong decision is game-changing because the game follows an alternative path to the one it would have followed.”

    So the game follows another pattern to the one it would have followed. Simple. When I say game-changing it doesn’t mean it guarantees three points for either side, it merely means the path of the game has been changed.

    “I can’t recall a game where a team got a last minute penalty and robbed us of all three points or we were not allowed a penalty in the last minute, the only scenarios where you can really declare points as lost.”

    Now the above scenario is an absolute game-changer because points can be won or lost. There are no follow on consequences because the last action of the game has been played out.

    I hope that’s clear to the less well endowed in the brains department. Of course I may have explained it badly, I’m not a published writer like my uncle who’s just published his umpteen book, this one’s called Jack the Ripper, The Definitive Casebook, if any of you are interested in unsolved murders. He uses a lot of long words though so some of you may find it a struggle. No proof that Jack was a Spurs fan, yet.

  • Stuart

    Ooh, an angry sewer rat, never seen one of those before. Me think the nail has been hit squarely on the head.

  • Stuart

    Every decision is game changing OR last minute penalty is only situation you can declare as lost points.

    It can only be 1 or the other.

  • Rupert Cook

    @Stuart, can you not plug your brain in somewhere and get it started again?

    Game-changing means the game’s pattern has been altered, it doesn’t tell you which side will benefit. Ergo you don’t know if points have been lost or not.

    Absolute game-changing is when a decision, rightly or wrongly, (in this case we’re suggesting wrongly), affects the final score, i.e. a last penalty or free kick that results in a goal and is virtually the final action of the game.

  • marcus

    eh? Every decision by your reckoning Rupert is then ‘game-changing’, because if the ref hadn’t made any decision, then the game would have followed a different course.

  • Stuart

    Let me plug my brain in while I think about how a game changing decision can’t be lost points. hmmmm, we are incorrectly awarded a red card in the 2nd minute, game changing but cant result in lost points no? Factor in the opposing team were also awarded a penalty and scored, game changing and definitely can’t result in lost points.

    I’m getting the hang of this sewer rat football, maybe I can come down there one day and you’ll pick me to be on your team first.

  • Rupert Cook

    @Marcus, yes you got it. If the ref makes a wrong decision then the game is following a “false” reality. It’s a ripple effect. That wrong decision will influence the game but its influence will be wiped out by another wrong decision. I’d say there are about five or six wrong decisions a half but only the last wrong decision may have a negative impact although I think the influence becomes weaker as the wrong decision’s impact fades.

    Anyway, what’s the prediction for tonight’s game, I’m going for a 4-0 win. Bear in mind last time I was this confident we lost to Bradford.

  • Rupert Cook

    @Stuart, of course it’s game changing. I’m sure if you were a Chelsea fan you’d think that you#d lose to Barca when you went down to ten men. But no. Just because you lose a man doesn’t mean you lose the game though the odds are against you. I’m sure we all thought we’d beat Bradford due to us having superior players and that surely should be a game changer. But what happened? Let’s forget that though.

  • Ugandan Goon

    Oooh, ooh ,oooh just had an idea, Re: the arsenal model, how about untold model, eh? when an blogger displays journalistic instinct and reads a report or what not to tell us what it actually says rather than somehow make it a background for whatever fanciful human drama episode. eg despite being under fire from fans for not winning a trophy……arsene wengers arsenal…..

  • Stuart

    So you agree with Marcus that every decision is game changing yet claim only incidents at the end are. Sounds like your arse is talking to your face.

  • Ugandan Goon

    If you are not by yourself, ask any adult to explain the butterfly effect, it might help you understand where these folk are coming from.

  • Notoverthehill

    Tony, the first column relates to €, and the other relates to £.

    For some reason, a € has appeared in your column heading, and not £.

  • Stuart

    Ugandan Goon,
    Look up the word ‘contradiction’ and then get back to me.

  • Ugandan Goon

    @brickfields G,
    thouroughly entertaining as usual, Thank you Sir!

  • Ugandan Goon

    Looked it up, but by then i had also read brickfield’s @6.02am, i think i’ll go cuddle some bollards, you don’t want to die leaving your favourite street furniture in any doubt about how you feel about it. Ciao

  • Rupert Cook

    @Stuart, is English your first language? I really can’t make it any simpler.

    I suppose if we’d had a man sent off against Bradford in the cup last year in the first minute and we lost you’d be claiming we’d have won if we’d had eleven men. Think about it.

    Got my 4-0 prediction right, seems like a perfect day.

  • Florian

    The writing was on the wall, but alas: Juan Mata signs for manure

  • bjtgooner

    I have been trying to follow the rupert’s attempt to argue his way out of the hole he managed to dig for himself. Based on the two phrases quoted by Stuart @ 10.52am, noting rupert’s earlier statements, the basis of the argument concerns the part phrase: –

    “the only scenarios where you can really declare points as lost.”

    This refers to a wrong ref decision happening at the very end of a match costing three points and because no further actions take place rupert seems to consider this to be the only scenario in which it could be declared three points were lost as the result of a ref wrong decision. As the rupert can’t recall this happening his argument seems to be that the refs have not cost us points this season?

    Further – rupert @ 6.45pm

    “@Marcus, yes you got it. If the ref makes a wrong decision then the game is following a “false” reality. It’s a ripple effect. That wrong decision will influence the game but its influence will be wiped out by another wrong decision. I’d say there are about five or six wrong decisions a half but only the last wrong decision may have a negative impact although I think the influence becomes weaker as the wrong decision’s impact fades.”

    The reasoning here is wrong – if the ref makes one wrong decision – a game changer – it does not follow that if the ref makes a further five or six wrong decisions each half the decisions will negate each other or even the first wrong decision – wrong decisions within a match do not necessarily even out, they may benefit one team only. The supposition that there are five or six wrong decisions each half is itself only that – supposition – there may be more – or there may be less. But can it be proven beyond any doubt that a major wrong decision during a match occurring before the final few minutes did not cost the points – I don’t think so.

    Now look rupert – judging by your tone @4.17 & 4.46 pm you are getting fed up. You need to have a good look at yourself. You have been contributing to this site for what 18 months or two years? Always you are negative, sometimes you have been very snide about our manager or our team. In your efforts to defame the validity of the ref reviews you have even besmirched Walter’s integrity. Walter is one of the most honest guys I have come across on any site – rupert – shame on you.

    I am going to make one suggestion based on: –

    1. Hoping there is something decent somewhere inside you
    2. Hoping you are not a plant for a third party who has a vested interest in undermining the Arsenal
    3. Assuming you do not have a major issue with the Arsenal or a major mental problem.

    Go and review all your posts made over the last two or so years and then ask yourself why you persist in coming to a pro Wenger site with such sustained negativity. My hope is you will change your mind set & reform to become a “normal” contributor – constructive criticism is fine – but your continued negativity (up to this point) is incompatible with any remaining creditability. What are the chances of a change – I would guess at 2% – but this time I would be happy to be proven wrong.

  • Stuart

    No Rupert, I’m not claiming that, it is in fact you making the claim that it WOULDN’T make a difference. What is your favourite food? Ratatouille?

  • Mick

    Rupert is indeed an enigma.
    It is surely human nature to want to be in a community of like minded people; that brings security, happiness and contentment, a feeling of belonging. Why would anyone deliberately wish to offer themselves up as the person within that community that opposes the hopes and aspirations held dear to the group. Why would you want to make yourself unpopular? Why would anyone want to constantly offer up views that he knows will upset and anger the vast majority of the community he wishes to be a member of. It beats me!. Why would you want to belong to a ‘club’ that you have no interest in, no liking for, it doesn’t make any sense. Surely Rupert you would be a lot happier if you joined a club such as Le Grove and left us in peace.

  • Mick,

    That is my sentiment exactly.

    I think Rupert Cook is just trolling us around here. We need to ignore him. I know that is easier said than done though. It’s difficult to let most of his comments go. I guess he is an effective troll.