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Can you help devise Arsenal’s 25 list for next season? (and the end of the stupid “weakened team” rule)

By Tony Attwood

The Premier League has changed their rule on ‘weakened’ teams, probably the most insane, inept, stupid and crazed rule in the history of football.  (Well, ok, maybe not the most – the ability of countries to insist that all players – except those named Giggs – must play in friendlies for the country even if injured is the most insane, but this one runs a close second.

Until this past week EPL teams had to nominate the players in their squad at the start of the season.  You’ll remember the rules – a maximum of 25 players over 21 years old, with eight home-grown players out of a squad of 25.‬‪  A home-grown player is one who, irrespective of his nationality or age, has been registered with any club affiliated to the Football Association or the Football Association of Wales for a period, continuous or not, of three entire seasons or 36 months prior to his 21st birthday (or the end of the Season during which he turns 21).‬‪

A fairsized level of nonsense, but that’s how it goes.

But the true insanity came with the fact that the clubs couldn’t actually pick anyone they wanted from those 25.

Blackpool were fined £25,000 after Ian Holloway used his squad to the full for a match against the mighty Aston Villa.    In December 2009 Wolverhampton W get a suspended fine for not picking the right team against Manchester U.

Now any of the 25 can play in a game without fear of interference – although this is not true for the under 21s who can play for the club without being in the 25 list.

Last season Arsenal did this…

Homegrown players

  • Nicklas Bendtner
  • Gael Clichy
  • Denilson
  • Johan Djourou
  • Cesc Fabregas
  • Vito Mannone
  • Alex Song

Non-homegrown players:

  • Manuel Almunia
  • Andrey Arshavin
  • Marouane Chamakh
  • Abou Diaby
  • Emmanuel Eboue
  • Lukasz Fabianski
  • Laurent Koscielny
  • Samir Nasri
  • Tomas Rosicky
  • Bacary Sagna
  • Robin van Persie
  • Thomas Vermaelen
  • Sebastien Squillaci

So what have we got this year?

Of course there will be more transfers, and some of those who were under 21 aren’t any more (if you see what I mean), but maybe you can help me sort out the likely 25 that we will have.

Homegrown players from last year

  • Denilson
  • Johan Djourou
  • Cesc Fabregas
  • Vito Mannone
  • Alex Song

Non-homegrown players from last year

  • Andrey Arshavin
  • Marouane Chamakh
  • Abou Diaby
  • Emmanuel Eboue
  • Lukasz Fabianski
  • Laurent Koscielny
  • Samir Nasri
  • Tomas Rosicky
  • Bacary Sagna
  • Robin van Persie
  • Thomas Vermaelen
  • Sebastien Squillaci

Others – if you can assign them to “Under 21” or “Home Grown” so much the better – please do write in.

  • Gervinho
  • Vito Mannone (home grown?)
  • Armand Traore (home grown?)
  • Emmanuel Frimpong (home grown?)
  • Carlos Vela (was under 21 last year but not this)
  • Wojciech Szczesny
  • Carl Jenkinson (both under 21 and home grown?)
  • Kieran Gibbs (home grown and under 21)
  • Jack Wilshere (home grown and under 21)
  • Aaron Ramsey (home grown)
  • Ryo Miyaichi (under 21 but passport issues?)
  • Theo Walcott (home grown) (was under 21 last year, but not this I think)
  • Francis Coquelin (home grown and under 21?)
  • Craig Eastmond (home grown)
  • Henri Lansbury (home grown)
  • Jay Emmanuel Thomas (home grown)
  • Ignasi Miquel
  • Gilles Sunu

If you can help put together the exact data I’ll pull it into one article so we can have a working list of the 25 and the under 21s for next season.  Sorry not to have done the work myself today, but there’s some other work I must do… and I will write about that more shortly.

Untold Arsenal

Making the Arsenal

Arsenal History

40 comments to Can you help devise Arsenal’s 25 list for next season? (and the end of the stupid “weakened team” rule)

  • truth

    1.Scszeny
    2.Sagna
    3.Luis Enrique
    4.Samba/Cahill
    5.Vermaelan
    6.Song
    7.S.Nasri
    8.J.Wilshere
    9.Lukaku
    10.Fabregas
    11.Robin Van Persie
    12.Vito Mannone
    13.Djorou
    14.Konscielny
    15.Gibbs
    16.Jenkins
    17.E.Frimpong
    18.Ramsey
    19.Walcott
    20.Arshavin
    21.Roscicky
    22.Ryo Miyaichi
    23.Chamakh
    24.Vela
    25.Gervinho

    I feel that is what Wenger will have for next season and will be a competitive team for the title.

  • Shard

    I’ve been wanting an article on this Tony, so thank you for trying to get data together for it.. My thoughts on players and their status.

    Szczesny- Home Grown & U21 (because as I understand it, the age on the 1st of Jan 2011 is considered as the players age for the season)

    Frimpong -HG & U21

    Mannone-HG

    Gibbs is Home Grown but NOT U21 anymore. Walcott the same.

    Ramsey is U21 and Home Grown

    Eastmond- HG & U21

    Lansbury- HG & U21

    JET- HG & U21

    Miquel- HG & U21

    So Gibbs, Walcott, Vela and Traore have to be registered this year. The one confusion I have about these rules is if players who have signed for Arsenal but have been on loans abroad (for Work permits or otherwise) count as Homegrown or not.. I THINK they do, but I’m not sure.

  • Naren

    Tony,
    I have a small problem interpreting the ‘registered with FA or WFA for a period for three years.’ If a player is officially an Arsenal player but due to work permit issues, he spends the years between eighteen and twenty-one on loan, will he still be a home-grown player?

    Homegrown players:
    Vito Mannone
    Keiran Gibbs
    Theo Walcott
    Armand Traore

    u-21 players:
    Emmanuel Frimpong
    Wojciech Szczesny
    Carl Jenkinson
    Jack Wilshere
    Aaron Ramsey
    Ryo Miyaichi
    Francis Coquelin
    Henri Lansbury
    Jay Emmanuel-Thomas
    Ignasi Miquel
    Conor Henderson
    Kyle Bartley
    Last season, a player had to been born on or after January 1st, 1989 to qualify as u-21. So logically, this season, it should be January 1st, 1990. Hence, Gibbs, Traore, Vela and Walcott (all being born in 1989) will not be u-21 anymore.
    We will have two spots remaining in the 25 should nobody from last year(discounting Clichy) leave, after adding the four players who are no more u-21.

  • Naren

    Shard,
    This is unbelievable! I better have not posted my comment at all, it is just a paraphrased version of yours.

  • Shard

    Vela is not home grown.

    I have doubts about the homegrown status of Traore, Coquelin, Sunu because they have been out of the country on loan, but I think they do count as homegrown. Coquelin and Sunu are still U21.

    You are right about Jenkinson being Home Grown and U21. Miyaichi is definitely U21 but may not count as Homegrown in any case, since I think he signed for us after his 18th Birthday.

  • Shard

    @Naren

    LOL.. It is almost the same, though I think you put it in a better format. I was just taking each player at a time and checking their age 🙂

  • Shard

    Correction

    The official site doesn’t give the date Miyaichi signed for Arsenal, but his birthday is listed as December 14,1992. Unless we signed him after the 14th of Dec last year (unlikely), then he will count as homegrown. That is IF players out of the country on loan count as being registered with English club

  • Shard

    Sigh..I’m a mess… Ryo signed in January this year..So no Homegrown status for him. Right now he doesn’t have to be registered though.

  • Shard

    I think Naren’s list is the most comprehensive, and I agree with all of it. I had a doubt about Traore, but he joined us before he was 17, so even if the one year out on loan doesn’t count, he should still have spent 3 years with us.

    The only thing I would like to add to his list of U21 players is that Miyaichi will not count as Homegrown, while Coquelin’s Homegrown status will depend on the loan rule.

    To add to the confusion Tony, the UEFA requirements for homegrown status are slightly different. At least 8 homegrown players in the squad, but at least 4 of those must have been at the club for 3 years between the ages of 15-21. Again, no idea whether players out on loan count as having spent time at the club or not.

    Ok, so no more posts from me. I fear I may have added to the confusion 🙂

  • Naren

    Shard,
    I am a bit confused about Miyaichi, though it will not bother us for around three years.
    You see, Denilson was born on February 16th, 1988 but joined Arsenal on August 31st, 2006. So he too had completed his eighteenth year by the time he joined Arsenal. Yet Denilson is listed as a homegrown player. So Miyaichi might as well make it.

  • Shard

    @Naren

    Great. So basically I have no idea what’s going on huh? The only explanation I can think of for that is, that it is a total of 3 calendar years spent with an English or Wales club, before you have to be REGISTERED as an above 21 player, rather than before your 21st birthday. Do you think that makes sense?

  • Naren

    Shard,
    The Premier League defines a homegrown player as a player who “irrespective of his nationality or age, has been registered with any club affiliated to the Football Association or the Welsh Football Association for a period, continuous or not, of three entire seasons or 36 months prior to his 21st birthday (or the end of the season during which he turns 21).”
    The info in the bracket at the end is pivotal in determining the home-grown status and I think that is what we were missing.
    So Miyaichi turns 21 on December 14th, 2013 but by the time the already underway 2013-14 season ends in May 2014, he would have been registered at Arsenal for three years, thus qualifying as homegrown. All this, of course, if he stays. Should he go out on loan again, I leave it to the law makers. 🙂

  • Oh guys – I wanted you to make it easier for us all, not more and more complex!!!!

  • So is this the list of the non-home grown players???? We are allowed 17 such

    1: Andrey Arshavin
    2: Marouane Chamakh
    3: Abou Diaby
    4 Emmanuel Eboue
    5 Lukasz Fabianski
    6 Laurent Koscielny
    7 Samir Nasri
    8 Tomas Rosicky
    9 Bacary Sagna
    10 Robin van Persie
    11 Thomas Vermaelen
    12 Sebastien Squillaci
    13 Vela
    14 Gervinho

    So that means we have 3 places spare for non-home-grown adults. Can we agree on this?

    Our eight home growns (excluding of course the under 21s) are

    1 Denilson
    2 Johan Djourou
    3 Cesc Fabregas
    4 Vito Mannone
    5 Alex Song
    6 Keiran Gibbs
    7 Theo Walcott
    8 Armand Traore

    That leaves us 3 spaces and they can all be used by home grown or not, as we wish. If we want to sign more than 3 we have to sell.

    Yes?

  • Shard

    @Tony

    Naren’s list for next year is completely accurate. So just add those players in with the list you made. Though why no Bendtner and Almunia in there? I know they might leave but they haven’t yet. And until they do, the squad space available will be reduced.

    Sorry for making things more confusing. I just wish I knew the rules for the players out on loan abroad. Naren’s figured out the 3 years thing as regards to the rule he put up in his last post, so I think that loan stuff is the only remaining doubt.

  • Shard

    Yes.. Except for Bendtner and Almunia still being here.

  • Dark Prince

    You guys should have just checked out my article i posted almost a year back….but anyways here is the list for this year….

    For a player to be included in under 21 category in this season, he has to be born on or after 1st Jan 1990

    So the current squad which would NOT be included in under 21 category, i.e will be a part of the 25 man squad is-

    Vela
    Walcott
    Gibbs
    Traore
    Almunia
    Diaby
    Sagna
    Fabregas
    Vermaelen
    Koscielny
    Rosicky
    Nasri
    Van Persie
    Denilson
    Song
    Djourou
    Fabianski
    Arshavin
    Mannone
    Eboue
    Chamakh
    Bendtner
    Squillaci
    Gervinho

    Thats 24 players which has to be included in the 25 man squad…

    Now out of this the players that are homegrown are-

    Walcott
    Vela
    Traore
    Fabregas
    Bendtner
    Djourou
    Mannone
    Denilson

    Rest all the players, includin Wilshere, Ramsey etc will be classified as under 21 for this new season.

  • Ugandan Goon

    @shard,
    i notice you have forgotten to leave a space for cahill /samba despite the club never being anywhere near the two gentlemens representatives but of course if alan hansen, talkshite radio or “truth” above says so it is gospel.
    P.s take nasri out as he is heading for man united despite complete refutation by Sir alex.
    PPS. in all seriousness reports emanating in south america seem to suggest we have signed a certain joel campbell for a under a million, he also goes by the nickname “el pantero” he is black and he is slick (in movement)- which has got to be better than underformed legume- chicharito!

  • Naren

    Tony,
    Yes, perfect except for the fact that Almunia and Bendtner are still here, so we have only one spot vacant in the 25.
    Assuming they both leave, we have, as you say, three spots vacant.
    There is also a hitch with Vela…is he homegrown or not? It will be irrelevant if Denilson stays, but if he leaves and Vela is not homegrown, one spot will be wasted.

  • Dr. D

    All the players we send out on loan are registered with Arsenal. It doesn’t matter if we loan them to an English, French, Spanish, etc…club. Arsenal own their registration. We’re allowing other clubs to borrow OUR players. Great passion!!

  • Dark Prince

    Also regarding the confusion of the home grown rule in matters associated with B’days and Loan system, i’ll clarify with this defination of ‘Home-grown player’-

    “A home grown player is defined as one who, irrespective of his nationality or age, has been registered with any club affiliated to the Football Association or the Welsh Football Association for a period, continuous or not, of three entire seasons or 36 months prior to his 21st birthday (or the end of the season during which he turns 21).”

    So it doesn’t matter if a player has been loaned for couple of seasons bcoz the player will be still registered in the name of Arsenal.
    Also it doesn’t matter in cases of Miyaichi where he signed a few months after his 18th b’day, bcoz the whole season in which he becomes 21yrs of age will be included in the required 3yrs of registration. So Miyachi will be a home grown player for us after 21yrs of age…

  • Shard

    LOL @Ugandan goon

    Yes, I’ve been following the story about Joel Campbell but don’t think it is a 100% certain yet.

    Oh I know. We’re doomed.. Nasri gone, Cesc gone, and Eboue refusing to go 🙂

    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/ebou%C3%A9-puts-his-feet-up-and-reads-paper-201107114057/

  • Shard

    Naren

    Not till the work permit I’m afraid. I mean we will in all likelihood sign him, but will he play for us this coming season?

  • bc

    Give me an email address and i will send you a spreadsheet with all the info you need.

  • Lanz

    @Shard. He has played for his national team and is 18. Doesn’t that qualify him for a work permit?

  • Shard

    @Lanz

    He needs to have played in at least 70% (or is it 75%) of his country’s matches in the past 2 or 3 years. (My memory is fading like I’m an old man) But yeah. some such limit, and that is if his country is in the top 70 of the FIFA rankings (which I think CostaRica are). Otherwise a special talent visa needs to be applied for.

  • Naren

    Shard,
    That of course is a question for the Home Office. We can only apply for the special talent visa, which we will also have to apply for Miyaichi and Wellington. I wonder how many special visas will they grant at once.

  • Shard

    I don’t think we plan for Wellington to come this year. His loan spells have been underwhelming, and he’s having some problems settling in Europe. Even though Spain will probably be closer to his culture than England. So I think Wellington will have it all to prove before we bring him into the team.

    Is there a limit to how many you can apply for?

  • Lanz

    I think I read somewhere that the HO grants only one (Special Talent Visa) per year. But “Young Guns” also claim the boy’s father says he will wear No 12. Does one get that sure without good reasons?

  • Shard

    @Lanz

    If Young Guns and Campbell’s father is right, we’ll find out by tomorrow 🙂

  • Nathan

    i read that Cambell has some Irish connection or something, i think his grandfather. Which means he will not need a work permit. i dont know how true this is.

  • John

    Young Guns is now reporting they are considering another better offer from an english club and the deal with Arsenal is not complete.

    They are reviewing offers tonight.

    Downside to stuff being reported to quick me thinks hopefully he chooses the Gunners.

    Really think Charlton Cole would be a powerful squad addition and give us some good options up front. He is better traget man than Bendther and Chamkah and is available for £6M.

    I also think we have slipped up not signing Woodgate on a pay as you play deal (nothing to lose I know he has an dreadful injury record but when he is fit he was one of the best) and Zapata from Udinese would have been a good signing cant believ Villerall signed him he would offer some good competition at centre half

  • WalterBroeckx

    Denilson is saying on his twitter that he is going home again. Not that I know Portuguese but that is what google is saying he said.

    So that is one home grown player less.

  • Dark Prince

    I forgot to add Song in my homegrown player list….so we have currently 9 senior members who are home grown.

  • Just a final point on the Almunia and Bendtner list – Mr Wenger does not have to put them on the 25 even if they are still at the club. If he had 27 players including those two, he could leave them out in the cold.

    If he wanted to that is.

  • Denilson has gone on loan to Brazil, and if we take it for the moment that we have seen the end of Almunia and Bendtner we now have…

    1: Andrey Arshavin
    2: Marouane Chamakh
    3: Abou Diaby
    4 Emmanuel Eboue
    5 Lukasz Fabianski
    6 Laurent Koscielny
    7 Samir Nasri
    8 Tomas Rosicky
    9 Bacary Sagna
    10 Robin van Persie
    11 Thomas Vermaelen
    12 Sebastien Squillaci
    13 Vela
    14 Gervinho

    So that means we have 3 places spare for non-home-grown adults. Can we agree on this?

    Our seven home growns (excluding of course the under 21s) are

    1 Johan Djourou
    2 Cesc Fabregas
    3 Vito Mannone
    4 Alex Song
    5 Keiran Gibbs
    6 Theo Walcott
    7 Armand Traore

    Fourteen non-home grown over 21s

    1: Andrey Arshavin
    2: Marouane Chamakh
    3: Abou Diaby
    4 Emmanuel Eboue
    5 Lukasz Fabianski
    6 Laurent Koscielny
    7 Samir Nasri
    8 Tomas Rosicky
    9 Bacary Sagna
    10 Robin van Persie
    11 Thomas Vermaelen
    12 Sebastien Squillaci
    13 Vela
    14 Gervinho

    Newcomers outside the list… (subject in some cases to passport)

    Campbell (Costa Rican)
    Jenkinson

    Promoted from the ranks…

    Ryo Miyaichi (Japanese)

  • Dark Prince

    Tony- u got only one thing wrong….even Vela is a home grown player

  • AZ

    Vela is NOT homegrown. He only had 2.5 seasons with us before turning 21 (or the end of the season during which he turns 21). He turned 21 in march 2010, so, counting to the end of 09-10 from jan 08, it was not enough.

  • AZ

    Homegrown

    Bendtner
    Djourou
    Fabregas
    Mannone
    Song
    Walcott
    Gibbs
    Traore

    Non-homegrown

    Almunia
    Fabianski
    Sagna
    Eboue
    Vermaelen
    Koscielny
    Squillaci
    Rosicky
    Diaby
    RvP
    Chamakh
    Nasri
    Arshavin
    Gervinho
    Vela

    Other first team members who don’t have to be included in the 25-man squad (‘under-21’): Szczesny, Jenkinson, Ramsey, Wilshere, Frimpong, Eastmond, JET, Lansbury, Miyaichi. Denilson is out on loan, and so probably is Botelho (born ’89).

    Another thing to keep in mind is that next season we’ll have some players who won’t have the under-21 status and will need to be decided upon. The current 1990 births are Szczesny, Ramsey, JET, Lansbury, Hoyte, Murphy, Eastmond. I don’t think there’s much doubt over the first two, but the rest have bunch to prove this season.