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Exactly how can things get any worse? Turns out it is not too hard.

Article updated 1005 BST, 28 Aug.

By Tony Attwood

There was a moment about half an hour before the end of the Liverpool Arsenal match in which the Radio 5 commentators broke off the commentary to do their normal advertising for the phone in which follows games.  However a debate broke out between commentators as to whether the phones lines were actually “open” or not.  After a couple of minutes of exchanges during which the match was ignored we were told “yes the phone lines are open”, and then had another couple of minutes telling us to phone in.  “You can” we were told, “have your say”.

It struck me at that moment, as it has before, that with football reporting, keeping the audience has become far more important than the actual reporting itself.

I then wondered why “having your say” has become so important.  Discussion of course is part of humanity, the exchange of ideas, the searching for solutions, the examination of evidence and so forth.  I have learned a huge amount from the quarter of a million comments we’ve published over the years, (and indeed a fair amount from the much bigger number we’ve not published too).

But I rarely learn anything from people who phone in, simply because they are generally condemning through the means of simplistic accusations and solutions to complex issues.  If there is any attempt to explain anything it is usually on the basis that there is one cause and one solution.

That same message happens over and over again.  But to what purpose?  People have been calling for the manager at Arsenal to go since we moved to the Emirates Stadium, yet he is still there.  So why do they go on and on and on doing it when as a tactic, is self-evidently does not work.

I’m reminded of the comments we get (mostly not published any more because seeing the same message over and over is fundamentally boring), that “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result,” – a quote that is ascribed to Albert Einstein, and which is directed at the behaviour of Arsene Wenger.

Generally speaking one can tell the seriousness of a correspondent who quotes someone else in terms of whether he/she gets the source right – and in this case it takes a matter of two seconds on the internet to realise that Einstein never said or wrote that (just as he didn’t say or write most of the sayings ascribed to him).

But if the definition of insanity is “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result” why do some football watchers do exactly this, by complaining about Wenger on phone ins, in the media and everywhere and anywhere else they can find.   I am not suggesting that such people are insane, but after 10+ years of complaining about him, if they had any sense, they would realise endlessly complaining doesn’t actually work.

There are of course some much more interesting questions around: such as how the team that won so effectively during the last part of last season could be beaten as they were yesterday.   Is it that Wenger was a great manager until the Cup Final, and then became the worst manager ever?  Were Arsenal just lucky in beating teams in that run or did Chelsea and Manchester City just simply not bother?

Those are points that seem to me to be worth debating, along with the question, if one wants to change something at the club, what is the most effective way of doing it?

Given that the uprising of Arsenal supporters has been going on for over 10 years, and given that the complaints we hear on the phone ins now are the same as the ones we heard 10 years ago, and given that nothing has changed the answer must be, no this is not a very effective way of getting change at the club.  And that although doing it over and over and over again might not be an absolute way to diagnose insanity, it is a pretty good way of diagnosing stupidity.

And above all it is a sign that few people have got hold of the notion that complaining to phone ins could do the club harm (by making the players think, “I’m going to go somewhere where the fans are less antagonistic”), and that the only people who benefit when someone phones a phone in with a negative comment are

a) the people involved in the programme who claim that their running of the show has galvanised the listeners to take part

b) the advertisers (if it is on a commercial station), as they get a bigger audience

Thus expressing our anger and annoyance without then removing the cause of it self-evidently doesn’t do much good. Actually it does the reverse, unless there is a good therapist at hand.  And by and large most radio phone in presenters are not good therapists.

Thus none of this phoning in and complaining has anything to do with improving the club and its performances.  It has quite a bit to do with making things worse for the club, since it destabilises the team and tends to make the next result worse as the players become more tense game by game.  And it tends to build up the tension and anger in those who are complaining, rather than relieving it, and for both physical and mental health that isn’t very clever.

Somehow in English society the notion of the benefit of relaxing and focusing on positive emotions has never really caught on.  Yoga, meditation, Alexander technique; it is all seen as a weird, nambypamby, flippant and foreign.  Instead as a nation we are encouraged to express our anger on a phone in and then find the situation simply hasn’t changed for the better.

On the other hand if you are convinced Arsenal are going to lose, then I guess you can make some money out of it.   Try this: the top 10 betting promo codes.  

It could work for you.

Just published by the Arsenal History Society

The newly named The Arsenal start their first season and go top of the League

Untold Social

From the Arsenal History archives

28 August 2011: Arsenal lost 2-8 to Man U.  See also:   Ref Review     Arsenal’s goals came from Walcott and Van Persie, and the first Man U goal from Welbeck.   It took Arsenal until October to recover when a run of seven wins and a draw in eight games restored the team’s self-belief.

The full set of anniversaries for each day are published on the Arsenal History Society site.

104 comments to Exactly how can things get any worse? Turns out it is not too hard.

  • testo

    The team was able to on a good run last season ONLY after the pressure off chasing the league was off and we were out of the race. Happens every time so finishing strongly is nothing to be proud of.

  • Thanks Tony for clearing that up then it’s all the fault of the fans . Silly me I was all prepared to blame the manager and players .
    No wonder this clubs overall trajectory is downward

  • Danish Gooner

    You are unbelievable Tony how come you have become this deluded and stubborn.You just witnessed one of the worst droppings in our history with a squad earning 200 mil a year and you still cant see any wrong doing.

  • tee

    is this all you can write on the show of shame witnessed yesterday? I’m beginning to believe what people have been – that you are on AFC payroll to divert the truth about the club.

  • gouresh

    What beggars belief is that we fail, or lets say don’t to see the obvious. If the team played badly, lets have the courage to say it. Not glosses it over with some idealism. 3 games into the season, we had to fight real hard against Leicester, yes we are not blind to see that we were missing some players but yes we fought. That’s what the fans want to see. Then Stoke and then Liverpool…..can you actually defend this performance? We don’t mind losing, it’s part and parcel of football….but with this performance? Can anyone tell me how many times did AW get up from the bench and shout out instructions? He sat there moaning to Bould while our midfielders and the Ox made mistake after mistakes after mistakes. We know that he want players to make their own decisions, but if they are making the same mistakes again and again? Are the players really interested anymore? As TH pointed out….its all very comfortable, there is no arse wipping.

  • Jax

    Five Live phone in is consistent inasmuch as the contributors say it as they see it. Remember 27th May? The fans were justifiably ecstatic after giving Chelsea a football lesson in how not to do the double.
    The simple answer is: if you want good fan response give them something to be positive about. Yesterday’s team performance was appalling and they (the fans) were fair in their criticism.

  • Dom

    Tony,
    as usual,a well written piece intended I believe, to deflect the anger, the deception and profound incomprehension generated by what we all witnessed yesterday.
    In reality, I’m not really sure as to the causes of our team’s total ineptitude against Liverpool; There seems to be so many imponderables…and many will use this humiliation to pile more pressure on the manager and the team.
    I watched all the pre-season matches with interest and although unconvinced by a number of performances I understood that Arsene was trying out a certain number of defensive/offensive combinations which he would confirm or not for the start of the season.The game against Chelsea was not very confortable but showed that even without Sanchez, Koscielny et al we could perform with credibility.
    Great game against Leicester a few defensive lapses, but very positive I thought; Unlucky against Stoke defensive errors and poor finishing. I couldn’t wait to measure ourselves against last year’s fourth placed team…
    I do realise that two losses doesn’t rule us out from the Premiership race and our fortune must turn, however the more extreme fans may well get their desires after all.

  • Pat

    As I remember – and it was only yesterday – Walter wrote an article where he criticised a very poor team performance. So ‘let’s have the courage to say it’ has no weight at all, as an accusation against Untold Arsenal.

    What Untold has done that very few others have is to expose a number of factors, but in particular blatantly biased refereeing, which have affected Arsenal’s performances for about a decade.

    This refereeing has cost Arsenal points and led to injuries, sometimes career changing (remember Abu Diabi?). Nobody has been able to prove why this bias exists thought there are various suspicions, none of which reflect well on the referees’ organisation and its supporters in the FA and EPL.

    At the moment it looks as if two other factors may be having an effect – the transfer window and the ever more ludicrous amounts of money available to some clubs to buy players and pay agents and players themselves.

    We will see if that was a major factor after the transfer window closes.

    I’ve got my ticket for the Bournemouth game. I expect to go there and see all our excellent players gelling like a team as they usually do, and giving their all, as they usually do.

  • Paul the gooner

    Sorry Tony, wrong call.We all know about the phone ins and how so called supporters totally stir things up.
    On Sunday, we all saw one of the worst displays in recent times buy us, or in fact any other Club.You are totally correct in pointing out our last 10 matches of last season and how well we performed.Clearly things are going on at our Club that are causing huge problems.It does not help that 3 players are out of contra t soon and are holding a gun to our head.After Thursday, I believe we will know much more about the going ons.
    We cannot get any worse!

  • Arsenal1Again

    Keep it up Tony.You’ll soon be joining Wenger. Your blind faith in Wenger no matter what he ever does has always been absolute, so has your condemnation of Arsenal fans who say anything to criticise your focus of adulation.

    You have a site for people who had better toe the line and agree with you and I’m glad to see the most hardened Wenger fans starting to open their eyes about him and your site.

    When Wenger is gone, your world will be empty. You’ll not be able to muster enough energy to compile your pointless Ref statistics, the focus will be on what your Wenger is trying to do after retirement or sacked. Is he still bullet proof? I don’t think he is. After he is gone he’ll be out thete somewhere interfering with the club in some capacity. He comes across as that kind of person. People in power don’t like losing that power and will do all they can to cling to it.

  • Hunter13

    ‘Those are points that seem to me to be worth debating, along with the question, if one wants to change something at the club, what is the most effective way of doing it?’

    The attitude of players: is what i want to change

    but i dont know how….send jens to beat them all up? sell them all and promote the u-17 for the whole year?

    xhaka has made terrible errors in opening games already… i dont like him…i dont see a toni kroos in him put it that way…

    can we try eleneny-coquelin please? a ball winner type and a cool distributor/play between the lines and space type

    xhaka and ramsey …. are pain to my eyes right now..both of them..

  • Jay the Nigerian Gooner

    Mr Tony’s job is to not criticise at all either constructively or foolishly. I like his type of fan but right now he is tending towards delusion. There is no way we can justify that performance at all, we didn’t lose only we just disintegrated thanks to AW. As fans we deserve better than that because we are at the receiving end, we spend our money directly and indirectly on this club ranging from buying season tickets to buying jerseys (pirated and original) to even paying heavily for TV subscriptions here in Nigeria. Not to mention fueling my generator to watch that height of madness. Mr Tony you can’t be happy with what watched yesterday and as a living thing a response to that should be very normal. We should be talking about what went wrong or what’s wrong with the team and stop be voyeurs. Focus on our team and not talk about how PSG is escaping FFP or some shii I can’t relate with. Peace.

  • Hunter13

    and all you shits going for the manager

    the manager has proved his owrth has nothing to prove…championships, record seasons domestic or abroad, record f.a cups, records in europe, money, stadiums , class , world wide recognition.. has been building arsenal for 20 years

    HAVE THESE PLAYERS PROVEN ANYTHING?

    no they have not……

  • Henry Root

    This article is an attempt to deflect attention from what Arsenal fans really care about. A stupid and intellectually snobbish remark about recognising sources of quotations is utterly irrelevant. Don’t set up a website and then expect people not to comment. You are just doing what the BBC are. I think Untild Arsenal bears a little if the Lane for our problems because you are providing a smokescreen which obscures our real problems. Wenger is patently unable to drive this club forward. His legacy is getting heavily tarnished and every Arsenal fans especially ones like me who pay a fortune to follow the club deserve the right to debate this.
    As for the phone ins they are the natural way for away fans to express their feelings in the long, depressing drive home.
    We didn’t lose 4-0 because a referee awarded a throw in the wrong way in the third minute. Liverpool didn’t kick us off the pitch. We were thrashed because of a poor selection, and poor organisation and poor motivation. Only one person can be blamed for that

  • colario

    Social media has replaced the terraces as the ‘fans’ avenue of expressing their expertise.

    On terraces and in today’s social media the – supporter sees everything and understands every thing and knows everything.
    If you are a fan of this nature than programs like Radio 5’s football phone ins are for you.

    If you look for more than what the eye sees on the pitch that is to say what is causing what we see as opposed to having a ‘all knowing knowledge’ based only on what you see then the modern day terraces are not for you.

    We have no idea as to why the team played badly. All we know for certainty is what we saw.

    As to why? Our only answer to that is no more than our own speculation – believe that and you believe anything.

  • Alexanderhenry

    This article is utterly bonkers and somewhat insulting.

    As an arsenal fan it is my right to criticise the team, manager and players when I like and how I like.

    What you seem to be suggesting is that any criticism of arsenal- wenger basically – is futile and disloyal. We should just blindly support the team whatever happens and clap and cheer like a bunch of eight year olds at a pantomime.

    I’m sorry but yesterday’s performance was an utter disgrace. Wenger, kroenke, the players and the club as a whole deserve everything they get.

  • I am not at all sure how the article I wrote this morning shows a blind faith in Wenger. Nor have I said that it is all the fault of the fans. Nor have I said that I can’t see anything wrong.

    Yesterday Walter wrote a review of the game; I saw no point my repeating that, so this morning I’ve chosen to write an article about the impact that I think the media is having.

    But what seems so strange to me is that so many people want to direct what I write (in addition to those who claim to know more about my thinking, and my employers, than I do). Why?

    Within such thought seems to be the notion that somehow I have an influence (in that if I didn’t, it wouldn’t matter a toss what I wrote, so no one would complain). But when I do a little piece saying that (for example) attitudes towards refereeing in the PL have changed a little as a result of our relentless highlighting of the topic, I get notes saying “You really think anyone takes any notice of Untold Arsenal? You’re pathetic!”

    It is all very odd.

  • colario

    Henry Root wrote:
    28/08/2017 at 9:50 am
    ”We didn’t lose 4-0 because a referee awarded a throw in the wrong way in the third minute. Liverpool didn’t kick us off the pitch. We were thrashed because of a poor selection, and poor organisation and poor motivation. Only one person can be blamed for that”

    ”Only one person can be blamed for that”
    Henry that is your speculation which of course you are entitled to.

    I don’t recall you sharing with us here at ‘untold’ your speculation when we won the FA cup against Chelsea. Perhaps you were on holiday at the time – now i speculating!

  • Kerosene Aboda

    My Honest advise to Arsenal Management (Arsene Wenger). Please go in for these businesses before the window closes on 31st August.
    1. Van Dijk
    2. William Cavalho
    3. Lemar/Draxla
    4. Diego Costa or Aguero in exchage for Sanchez.
    Please don’t be arrogant and just take the advise. You may choose to ignore this piece of advise but i’m sure it wouldn’t end well with arsenal come May 2018. I’m sure you guys have money or better still try to look for it. Stop being Stubborn. I’m a strong supporter of Arsenal but the Management is failing us funs

  • Dom

    Arsenal1Again
    Having a go at Tony for his absolute faith and belief in the club, the manager and the team is pointless. He is a real fan of our club. You on the other hand are not ! Everybody’s opinion is important, that is why there are forums.To have a go at manager and team for poor performances is one thing, to make it personal and take pleasure in demeaning the host proves to me that you should seek some form of help and go to a more suitable site.
    Au revoir mon ami !

  • Jimbo

    Excellent article Tony,

    I do believe that most Wenger outers along with the majority of people who love to rant and complain consistently about Arsenal whether be it by phone or blogs are

    bordering on insanity and madness.Arsenal seem to be the club these unsteady fanboys like to attack,maybe it’s because these folk have little vision of the bigger

    picture and can only react to the present and their carnal emotions, which seem to overpower them after every bad result.The trouble with today’s reporting is that it’s

    all sensationalism one sided particularly when it comes to Arsenal.The media love it and the officials have for many years realised they can become more popular and

    loved by screwing over the Gunners.The game was no way all one way traffic as we’re led to believe with Klopp himself admitting he changed his style to nullify the

    the oppositions superior playing style..

  • Polo

    There is no excuse for yesterday’s shambolic performance, as an AW supporter it truely depressed me to see that. I believe it is time for AW to go back to how he was 20 years ago, play kids who has heart and hunger, and drop players who don’t perform, also end this obsession of trying to be like Barca, as it’s not working.

    At this momrnt, I feel that AW is working for the players and not the other way around, he need to be ruthless and if we lose our best players so be it. The players need to understand that there are no comfort zone at Arsenal, and I’m coming to a point where we need to be like Chelsea and Manchester United, where they drop players who are not up to the level required.

    The whole team need to be reminded that there are a lot of people around the world who pay good hard earned money to support and watch them play, they have a duty to give 100% every time they step onto the pitch wearing the Arsenal badge. If they lose but gave 100% I’m sure majority of supporters would accept.

    I apologise for the rant but I’m so bitterly disappointed with how the team performed.

  • Zuruvi

    Tony has not yet commented on the game itself, the team selection, the referee performance or indeed the players performance.

    I am quite interested to hear how Tony saw things yesterday.

    I have always loved Arsene Wenger but yesterday really messed up my opinion of the great man. He looks lost and confused. He looks punch-drunk … maybe like Conor McGregor after 10 rounds with Mayweather.
    No matter how good you are as a manager if you place your faith in good but not brilliant players you will struggle to beat teams with brilliant players. Saido Mane showed us what a clinical attacker does on the pitch. Welbeck showed us that he is a goal-shy winger who is NOT a central striker (and again proved to us why Man Utd off-loaded him and replaced him with an 18-year-old Rashford).
    Is Xhaka on a mission to destroy Arsenal by always passing to the opposition players. And the boy is useless at tackling. The ref could easily have sent Xhaka off for a 2nd yellow card.

    We the genuine Arsenal fans (who don’t have a hidden agenda) cannot continue to bury our heads in the sand. We should use this good platform to inform our club (Arsenal) that things are NOT right. Fans are NOT happy. Something has to change. The team does NOT appear to be moving back to the high levels we had in the last 5 years at Highbury.

  • Winner

    Great article. Have you ever considered that your articles may be an exercise in self therapy.I am 46 yrs old now and I was not as mad yesterday as I was in 2001 when we lost 5-1 to Man United. May be my expectations have been progressively lowered year after year. Yesterday’s game reminded me of 3 games from last season the 3-0 away to crystal palace, and the two Bayern matches. What worries me most is the total capitulation. Wenger had the entire off season to address the short comings and he didn’t. On paper we have a very strong side. To be honest, I was hoping this team to pose some serious questions to Liverpool, but they didn’t. I think teams have now figured out how to play against Arsenal.Is it a coincidence that in each of our three games we have concede goals after losing the ball when Xhaxa was trying to play a pass out of defence? Is it a stroke of genius to play players out of position so early in the season? So Ox is a wingback; Monreal is a central defender;Bellerin is a left wingback? Are Ox, Ozil and Sanchez’s contracts sorted out? Why not? It is more than 90 days since the FA cup final surely the situation ought to be clear by now. Could it be that we have become experts at normalizing the abnormal? Has mediocrity become the acceptable new norm? Sport is to be enjoyed and not endured. Losing will always hurt, but a lack of ambition is disenchanting to the fans.We can console ourselves but most dispassionate observers would argue that are rivals have shown more ambition in the transfer market and are now showing more ambition on the field as well.

  • Zuruvi

    Thanks Polo. That’s a good posting.

  • KR

    Tony I can only conclude you are an Arsene fan not an Arsenal fan. Any genuine Arsenal fan watching that pathetic showing would be angry, livid and understand there is no future under the manager. Your laid back attitude proves your passion is not that of many others, if you cannot see from that display a team lacking in tactical skills, desire and respect for there manager you would be better off in the world of chess, bowls and tiddlywinks. A special word for Xhaka, trying a back heel in his own six yard box at anfield, at that moment he should have been subbed but no it’s not even a problem to Wenger. Tony how many more drubbings do you want to see against the top sides or perhaps you just don’t mind as long as Arsene is in his 8 million pound job.

  • The game was by no means one way traffic .

    Arsenal failed to get one attempt on target . Sorry Jimbo

  • tobi

    now it’s the fault of the players right, last time I checked, the manager made the decisions, i still don’t understand the lineup till now. We all cheered Arsene when we won, fought with anyone who wanted to soil his name but yesterday was on him, totally on him. I’ve not watched anything like that in years. It’s just a shame as this would have been the perfect time to prove every one wrong but yesterday is the beginning of the end

  • Emmanuel

    Tony,
    As a fan that has moved on from complaining about Arsenal and Wenger for 5 years,I sincerely believe every supporter has a right to complain about the present state of AFC.
    Your apparent referral to insulting the sensibility of those that complain is actually distasteful.
    As someone that has respected and followed your commentaries for years I think they deserve an apology. Thanks.

  • KR, I think your commentary summarises the issue that there is here

    You have read my 1000 or so words and drawn a conclusion about my views on Arsenal, whether I am a fan or not, and based that on your own definition of a real fan, as someone who on seeing that match would be livid.

    And yet I was writing in part about the huge benefits of having the ability to stay calm and relaxed in trying circumstances. Indeed as an earlier correspondent – Zuruvi – said I haven’t actually made a comment about the match, rather I chose to write a piece this morning about the interaction between radio phone ins and some Arsenal fans.

    And I did that because Walter had already written about the match. This blog is called “Untold” – it would not be that if I simple did a second review, would it?

    Quite how you can see inside my head to draw any such conclusion is, I must admit, completely beyond me, although I do know that this kind of thinking is very much on the ascendancy today – certainly in the UK.

  • Alex

    Mr Tony
    I read yesterday someone wrote here and criticise the team and to some point the manager on his selection of the team.The languagge he choose maybe soft yes for my likes but fair is fair he touched the weak points.

    The media and ref are the most accused on this blog for most failures on the football side.

    Tony …i guess you are pissed like everyone else after that massacre as an arsenal fan therefore the topic that you choose to write do you reckon is timely adequate ?

    To me this is cowardice.Fear to face the truth fear of change.

    Le prof is old and past it.
    I feel the players are making a mockery of him and his regime.

  • Samuel Akinsola Adebosin

    I don’t think Le Prof is the primary problem that’s responsible for Arsenal not winning the Premier League title in the last 14 seasons they’ve won it last. A big London club that Arsenal FC is, the lack it not winning the Premier League title for the past 13 seasons has led to growing frustrations among the Arsenal faithful supporters. These growing frustrations have since turned to protests against Le Prof to leave Arsenal FC as the lack of winning the EPL title for more than a decade has become the borne of contention between the growing anti-Wenger Arsenal supporters and Le Prof. But the main culprit behind Arsenal 13 seasons failure to win the EPL title is no other person than the Arsenal majority owner, Stan Kroenke. His lack of passion to financially invest heavily in the club that could make Arsenal to win other titles than the FA Cup they’ve won thrice in the last four seasons has seen Arsenal failing to win the bigger trophies of the EPL, UCL and the Europa League Cup as a secondary big title. This Kroenke’s lack of passion not to invest heavily in Arsenal stance to see it win bigger titles occasionally or even regularly against the backdrops of Chelsea, Man U and Man City owners who have passionately invested heavily in their clubs which has led these clubs won bigger titles in recent past seasons. And even to some extends the two clubs of Liverpool and Tottenham Hotspur owners are looking to be financially surpassing Arsenal in ivensting in their clubs. A situation which has now made these two clubs topped Arsenal in the last PL table of last season.

    In furtherance to my above digressions, Kroenke has been using Le Prof technical and tactical management know how to cover himself from his lack his not financially investment heavily in the club as Le Prof has consistently delivered Champions League football to Arsenal for 19 consecutive seasons but last season when his technical and tactical nouns to get another CL spot for Arsenal deserted him.

    Now, Arsenal will still have the correct caliber of Gunners in the rank and file of their first team squad thus season who can make the club win the PL title this season even if they sell Sanchez and Oxchambo this summer. But Le Prof will have to be making the very correct Arsenal PL games starts and bench week in week out during the season campaign and deviates from unnecessarily playing his players out of their correct positional place of playing like switching Bellerin to play left wingback instead of to play him as right wingback. And stop benching the Gunners he should be starting on flimsy excuse like Lacazette, Mustafi and Kolasinac whom he benched in the Liverpool game that we lost badly.

    So, inconclusion, Mr Attwood, Sir, you are correct in your opinion as you have opined that the continuing calling on Le Prof to leave Arsenal by the growing frustrated Arsenal supporters may not work as long as Kroenke continues to own the club. I suggest if Kroenke will not be making sufficient incomings transfer funds available to Le Prof every window to be doing his transfer business correctly like it has appeared he has cleverly done this summer window, all efforts to oust him from owning the club should be geared towards him. But I must add that if he’s ousted, Le Prof may also be affected but depending who buys Kroenke’s majority share holding at Arsenal. If it’s Usmanov, Le Prof could still be in. But if it is Dangote my country man, Le Prof will be out because Dangote has said so.

  • Alexanderhenry

    Tony Attwood

    I respect your opinion on certain things but this article is insulting.

    You are basically suggesting that any fan who dares to criticise or complain about arsenal is a fool. To quote you:

    ‘And that although doing it over and over and over again might not be an absolute way to diagnose insanity, it is a pretty good way of diagnosing stupidity’.

    This is an arrogant and ignorant thing to say.
    Fans complain about their teams all the time. It is their right to do so, especially in arsenal’s case, considering the ticket prices.

    After a performance like yesterday’s and the ongoing transfer shambles I’d be angry if fans didn’t complain.

    ‘Complaining’ and ‘fans ‘ go together like
    ‘journalists’ and ‘speculation’.

    Your inability to understand this makes you a very odd fan indeed.

  • Alexanderhenry

    Samuel

    ‘the main culprit behind Arsenal 13 seasons failure to win the EPL title is no other person than the Arsenal majority owner, Stan Kroenke.’

    Absolutely right, but the signs are that wenger is not the manager he once was.

  • Pat

    Jimbo, interesting point about Liverpool changing their tactics. It’s ironic that despite the fury of some fans Arsenal still appears to be regarded by most EPL managers as the team to beat.

    Just another little factor the Arsenal players and manager have to deal with. Like the number of times the opposing goalkeeper plays an absolute blinder against us.

    Personally, I take that as a compliment.

  • Alexanderhenry: I have certainly never argued with the proposition that I am odd; most people who have spent their working lives in the arts tends to be like that. But it has never been my intention to suggest that any fan who criticises or complains is a fool.

    My observation both as a person who has worked in the media, who has appeared on and in the media, is that complaining about something via the media very very rarely works. It is an easy observation to make; because as you rightly say the criticism is there all the time, but the change for the better is not there all the time.

    And yes, perhaps it was foolish of me in the extreme to use the word stupid; I was influenced by the fact I had just written that quote involving the word “insanity”, and should not have done. “Silly” would be a better word, and let me recast the phrase more politely:

    Using the media, in order to complain about something, and then expecting that to change, is silly. A vast amount of evidence has been gathered to show that it very rarely happens.

    Of course I understand that complaining and fans goes together. I am making the simple point that if fans want something to change, there are more effective ways of doing it. If I may give you one example: 1965 to 1968; the fans, in very large numbers simply stopped attending. That was rather effective, first in getting rid of a very poor manager, and secondly persuading the new man to change his purchasing policy.

  • KR

    Tony, strange response I have read your posts for a long period of time. I totall get your aim of deflecting attention from a disgrace of a performance to a radio phone in. After watching that yesterday I would not be interested in the issues of a phone in I am to upset about my football team. I’m not sure your actually that bothered, we had thousands of fans at anfield perhaps you should listen to their views, where is your passion Tony? This kind of thinking in the U.K!!!! the fact you have your own site makes that statement incredibly contradictory, you want everyone to hear your views but get upset when others express theirs, I would suggest this type of attitude is on the rise, the me me me culture of social media and the taking yourself to seriously culture, Tony your are certainly part of this.

  • nicky

    Untold’s banner has always proclaimed “Supporting the Club, the Players and the Manager”.
    Tony’s treatise in no way departed from this.
    Our great Club is currently going through a traumatic stage of upheaval. Contracts are meaningless, there seems to be dissention in the dressing room and on the field of play.
    Supporters of Arsenal FC of a certain age have seen this all before. I can go back to the latter times of the Chapman era.
    What is needed now is Support with a capital S.
    Arsene Wenger is Manager for the next two seasons whether we all like it or not and is entitled to backing because there is no alternative (for us).
    Mistakes have been made and will continue to be made.
    When the Liverpool game began, as always the control by the manager became limited. Wenger had selected the squad, the tactics and the game plan. The performance was for some reason abysmal.
    The manager can do without all the “experts” telling him what to do in order to put matters right.
    He is paid an extremely lucrative salary to do this.
    All we are asked to do is support those in charge at Arsenal together with all who wear the shirt.
    Difficult at times I know, but following Arsenal FC has never been for the fainthearted.

  • Alex

    Hunter13: i’ve never been a fan of Toni Kroos, but Ok, Xhaka must fulfil the same position. BUT Ramsey is NOT Luka Modric. Remove Modric, Kroos is nothing.

  • para

    Arsenal, oh Arsenal, Where art thou?
    I’ve been searching for you
    for a long time now

    The cracks are widening
    and the plaster used is old
    It just does not stick anymore
    and soon falls off the wall

    Taking down the whole wall
    as we watch it fall

    to the ground
    it’s not sound

    What can we do therefore
    Some cry a little more
    Some refuse to be critical
    While some ttt-try to ignore

    The degeneration is taking place
    before our very eyes
    Sending optical signals into
    the passages of our minds

    causing us all to react
    in many different ways
    so big ups to all those
    who are not afraid to have their say

    Arsenal, oh Arsenal, Where are you going?
    I’ve been searching for you here and there
    and everywhere
    for a long time now…

    for a long time now…
    for a long time now…

  • Jimbo

    Why does there always have to be blame left at the feet of persons or individuals?I don’t blame Wenger the players or the owners.Large sections of our supporters need to grow up and stop thinking they’re so hard done by and ask themselves why they’re so taken in by the crap talk of so called experts who love to spin the truth..

  • Well, KR, I can only say that I have been through too much in my life and seen and experienced too much to get very upset now by anything other than problems affecting my close friends or my family. I guess I am lucky because I have several ways of handling matters if I am upset, and I use that.

    Thus my passion is expressed positively, not negatively, and since I have been watching Arsenal since the age of 9, that has served me well.

    As I have said, I was not trying to deflect attention (I’d never assume I had that much power as a writer) but felt, Walter had dealt with the game, so I’d focus on something else. And yes although I now don’t go to that many away games, I go to some, but I can tell you the guys who sit behind me at the Ems tell me a lot about what negative passion is about.

    But KR, you, like some others, believe you know what’s going on in my head, (such as the notion that I want everyone to hear my views) when in fact, the reason for my running this site is stated in articles over and over and over again. Somehow I just don’t ever seem to get that idea across.

    I do get taken aback with the views of some others who correspond – the death threats, the threats to my family, the racism etc, but I liaise with the police over that. Otherwise no, I don’t.

    And if I really did take myself that seriously, would I really be running a blog that generates so many contrary views? Not sure that quite follows.

  • Josif

    If it’s true that Kroenke has tightened the pursestrings after Arsene signed a new deal, we all know who the real problem of Arsenal is.

    If Arsenal have to sell first-team players and, say, Everton can spend 145 millions thanks to the fact they have a new owner who is not a gold-digging leach like our majority owner, we can expect Arsenal to drop out of Top 6. If we cannot afford to make a single season out of CL without selling players we normally wouldn’t sell, then – what’s the point?

    Arsene claimed this team is good enough to win the league with one or two good buys. Basically, he set the bar himself and stated his belief with this team. He signed two players who have made an immediate impact (I was very reserved about Laca and he won me over) and then benched them v Liverpool to accommodate little ungrateful snake and to give another chance for Good Boy Danny to prove he is not the worst finisher that has played for Arsenal. On the other hand, Lucas Perez never got his chance to shine. Szczesny gave up on his own father for Arsene only to get kicked in the bottom this summer.

    If StatDNA players are not good enough – and apparently they are not – someone should question why that investment was made at the first place. If you buy four players over 30 months using the same scout and none of those four players has pleased you, you should fire the scout who recommended them.

    Arsene wants to be Jesus and wear sins of his whole team, the board and the parazite owner on his back but he can’t do it anymore. It was clearly visible from the beginning of the year. Arsene will be 68 in October and he can’t carry the same burden he could when he was 48 or even 58. That’s why younger lion like Klopp has won both games v Arsenal last season despite having 3 big decisions going against him in those two games comparing to two going his way.

  • alexanderhenry

    Tony Attwood

    Well, I’m a musician but that doesn’t cloud my judgement where arsenal are concerned. I’m not sure how being in ‘the arts’ effects anyone’s judgement on football.
    Also, I disagree that complaining via the media in ineffective. On the contrary it can be very effective.

    Here’s a quote from a Wiki article on Hicks and Gillet’s ownership of Liverpool.

    ‘In October 2010, as part of a fans’ campaign against the ownership, a video entitled Dear Mr Hicks was released virally via YouTube. Produced and directed by Mike Jefferies, it featured celebrity fans of the club giving their reasons why they wanted to see a change of ownership.[58] The Independent newspaper praised the video, saying, “True to the city’s capacity to create something out of adversity, a wonderfully inventive viral film, Dear Mr Hicks, has been published online to make it clear where he ought to go. The fans’ view can be summarised thus: away, and soon.”[59] It was claimed that the video was watched 400 000 times in 42 hours.’

    Arsenal fans have been ripped off since Kroenke took over. While paying the highest ticket prices in football he’s dragged the club into mediocrity. We need a concerted, organised campaign to rid arsenal of this dreadful leech of a man.

  • Arsenal1Again

    @Dom. Tony and I go back going on 10 years,or thereabout. When o was the moderator on the Arsenal board of Rivals net Tony asked if I wanted to contribute to his site. That was a different Tony. I remember Anne too. It has been a while since I popped into UntoldArsenal, I felt it best to say nothing at all rather than say something negative. I still feel the same because I do have the same enormous respect for Tony; and as it happens for Walter too. I have seen headlines of stories and felt sometimes UntoldArsenal might be returning to past glory, but I resisted popping in.

    My criticism is not of Tony’s beliefs or his stance per se, it’s about how the way UntoldArsenal has gone from being the highest quality writing about Arsenal FC on the web, the history site too, both of which were always my first port of call and often my only one – to I don’t know. A clique driven divisive site with AKB vs AOB. Almost divide and rule.

    I can’t remember the derogatory label used on Untold for people with a different opinion to Tony, it has, been that long, but I remember it meant they’re not REAL FANS …. something you just said about me. Well here’s to another 38 years of being a fake Arsenal Fan, perhaps then when I’m 88 I’ll be ‘real fan’ status by meeting the criteria of UntoldArsenal.

  • Scuba

    For many of us, supporting Arsenal is not something we do to emotionally pamper a bunch of multi-millionaires. We’re supporting the club because they provide a much needed release from our daily routines.

    When the club is being managed as poorly as they currently are, the fans, who are the ones paying the bills, have every right to feel shortchanged. It’s not our responsibility to coddle these players and this manager, we tried that about a decade ago and things really haven’t gotten any better since. There comes a time where brutal honesty and tough love are the best thing for supporters who actually care about the well being of the club…management has lost its way, and it’s time for change.

  • Arsenal1Again:

    I also remember Anne and her work and I was desperately sorry to lose her as a contributor, when she was hounded off the site by commentators. It was a really significant loss because she was exploring avenues of corruption in football that I’ve never been able to find anyone else to write on. I’ve covered it as best I can but she would have done it far better and I have no doubt we would have uncovered far more, if she’d stayed with us.

    The tragedy was that she was hounded out by the sort of commentary that we have been getting today – the difference was in those early days of the site I didn’t have enough systems in place to protect her from comments that were offensive and ludicrous. Today we publish a much smaller percentage of the comments we get.

    I did meet her and tell her that I wanted her to continue, but at the end she had had enough, and football commentary is a lot worse off for that loss.

  • Menace

    Polo – you’re not wrong. I think all the players that do not pull their weight should be made to sit in the front row, suited & booted, with a hat showing their weekly wage. It will take the piss but it might just begin to show where money is being wasted. If you cannot play for your salary then it is time to be shown as lacking hunger.

  • New_User

    @Tony If the club wins, you are happy, If the club lose, you are sad. If the club loses regularly then you are angry. If you don’t feel anything why do you even watch and support the club.

    You’ve been enough through life so you don’t get upset easily, so that means only the big tragedy affects you, huh? Well guess what, for some people small things matter. Why does the fan complain, what’s the point, nothings gonna change, just shut up and support the club that’s your view?

    It’s your right to express your opinion, but don’t look down on fans who vent their anger after such an embarrassing performance.

  • Barney75

    Tony – why don’t you refer to Wenger anymore as “Lord Wenger: Coach of the Decade”? Have you stripped him of his peerage? Admit it, even you and your mate Walter know the game’s up.

  • jet

    Going hogg day

  • jet

    Correction
    Ground hogg day

  • Gord

    But if the definition of insanity is “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”

    In classical statistical mechanics, one can find situations where one can “do the same thing” over and over again, and one always sees the same result. In quantum statistical mechanics, there is always this inherent unpredictability to every event. And the stupid ones are the people that expect the same result every time.

    You (being a player on the team, or the team in whole) go into a football game, and things just aren’t bouncing for you. A shot bound for the far post hits a turbulent eddy on the way, and goes lightly outside the post instead of inside. A shot more towards the goal that on a good day gets slightly deflected to wrong foot the goalkeeper, instead hits something closer to dead on and is blocked. You have to keep plugging away at things, just to keep from having a huge loss in what on another day might be a huge win. Football scores have a huge amount of chance in them.

    Back in the world of quantum mechanics, many of you are familiar with the knowledge that potassium contains a small amount (120 ppm) of the potassium isotope with an atomic number of 40 (K-40). Potassium-40 is radioactive. Potassium is also a required element in our body. Hence, we have evolved with a requirement for radioactive decay.

    Potassium-40 can decay by different paths. Most K-40 decays by (ordinary) beta emission to Ca-40. The next most common decay path is by electron capture. And a small amount decays by (antimatter) beta emission (positron emission).

    In order for K-40 to decay by electron capture, there has to be an electron (for the radioactive nucleus) to capture. No electrons, no electron capture. And so one can find that the half life of K-40 in interstellar space is different from the half life on Earth, because this electron capture process is very unlikely to happen.

  • Josif

    Here is a funny thing:

    if Arsene’s critics say he doesn’t change anything and expect a different result, they are wrong as Arsene does the same thing over and over again (i.e. playing with three at back) in order to get the same result (i.e. 11 victories out of 12 before the Marriner inflicted defeat at Stoke). Our best midfield combination ever since Santi got injured was Xhaka and Ramsey. All other combinations didn’t work (Elneny or Coquelin with either Ramsey or Xhaka).

    The definition of insanity – mine, not Einstein’s – would be: “Changing things that work in order to get the same result unless the outside factors have forced the change to take place.”

  • New User if that is what I was arguing you would be correct. But I was trying to argue (clearly very unsuccessfully) that complaining via a radio programme can make matters worse, in that it lowers the image of the club in the eyes of prospective players.

  • The Coach of the Decade, as I recall was an award that Wenger got and during that decade I used it. The Lord Wenger title came when he got the Order of Légion d’Honneur and was appreciated by a few people as a little bit of word play. Good of you to remember them. I don’t think I’ve used either phrase for quite a well; my words must have more impact than I ever imagined

  • Mind you Barney this makes me think of a few of the old jokes that ought to come back. Like Dennis Bergkamp on his allotment plot just off the North Circular Road.

  • alexanderhenry

    Tony

    ‘The tragedy was that she was hounded out by the sort of commentary that we have been getting today ‘.

    Sorry to hear that, but the comments seem pretty civil to me- you should have a look at other blogs.

    Arsenal fans are upset and so they should be.

    Getting angry and frustrated is part of being a football fan. In fact most fans spend most of the time in a state of emotional limbo, veering wildly between unbridled joy and abject despair. That’s part and parcel of following football. Nick Hornby describes it very well in Fever Pitch which I’m sure you’ve read.

    As Henry put it yesterday, the club is too ‘nice’ from top to bottom. Arsenal need to toughen up and be more professional and more committed on and off the pitch.
    You know, cups of tea in the face and all that. Some of the fans need to do the same. They pay their hard earned cash to watch arsenal and have every right to demand better and should demand it.

    This is football. It’s a rough and tumble world with no quarter shown or given. It can be beautiful but it can be very nasty. If you want things to be fair then you won’t get that following this sport.
    Unhappy fans, cheating players, dodgy refereeing, gossiping journalists, corrupt governing bodies, financial doping. These are all part of the game- in all leagues.

    Arsenal aren’t going to garner any sympathy from anyone by adopting an aloof attitude, and it won’t make them any better on the pitch. Recently all that BS about the club’s ‘values’ infuriated me.
    The fact of the matter is this: The people running arsenal have no ‘values’ themselves apart from the desire to make money. I think the collective penny has finally dropped and most arsenal fans realise this. Therefore, this season is going to be very rough for arsenal football club both on the pitch and in the stands. It could get very ugly but it’s part of a process that could see the club remerge with a new owner, manager and set of ‘values’ that lead to genuine success.

  • KR

    Tony, we can at least agree with regard death threats etc they are certainly over the top, sad, shocking and reflect on the poster. Where we differ is our passion, if you can take it or leave it so happily why bother with a website. I have followed Arsenal since 71 and did at one stage believe Wenger was the best manager I have witnessed, this was based on results and the style of football, the signings, the sheer quality of the football. For the same reasons I am now big enough to accept he has lost his way and should leave the club. Tony its not rocket science, judge the manager by the teams performances and results and by what you watch, using exactly the same criteria that made you love Wenger to start with.

  • New_User

    @Tony Yes, you did said it could make worse, as it can demoralise the players and may take longer to recover from this kind of performance.

    But you didn’t say anything about image getting worse for perspective new players. You also said this complaining has been going on for 10 years. If the complaining didn’t stop player like Ozil, Sanchez, Lacazette from joining Arsenal, why do you think it will stop them now?

  • Menace

    Hannibal – there was a goal that was given off side. So at least that was on target. Surprisingly, the first Liverpool goal came from a cross by a player that came back from an off side position to make the pass. But I suppose that was not in the vision of anyone.

  • goonersince72

    We can parse sentences, peer inside people’s heads and speculate about selection and tactics ’til Doomsday. Facts are: 3 games 6 points dropped. Forget contending for the EPL title this version of AFC is not contending for UCL places. Last season is was 5 pts. dropped. At the time I wrote AFC could not make up the deficit against the top sides and was slated for saying it. Perhaps AW should take a page from Mourinho’s book, i.e., prioritise winning the Europa League as a means of climbing back into the UCL. There is no other way this squad will do it. Everyone at AFC take responsibility for this mess, none more than AW. THESE ARE THE FIRST NEGATIVE WORDS I’VE EVER WRITTEN ABOUT MR. WENGER (Tony can verify this). To this supporter the situation is that dire.

  • Jimbo

    The complainers are a far bigger problem for Arsenal than Wenger,the board or the players.These folk only seem happy when Arsenal are in crisis,how often do you hear these fools telling our best players they should leave,just so they can wallow in their preferred state of self pity.
    It won’t be long before they start getting all violent again against who they perceive to be the akb’s.
    Their tedious sayings like ‘groundhog day’ we want our Arsenal back’and’I don’t care anymore’ are laughable really..

  • I think the situation is worse now on two fronts – one was that 10 years ago Arsenal were not competing for the very top players because of the lack of money following the stadium loans, and when the club started coming into the market again for Alexis and Ozil, it was felt this was a new start that could lift Arsenal up the table to challenge for the league.

    Second 10 years ago Chelsea were out on their own as a billionaire’s club and I think there was a feeling it was something of a one off. The football world has changed with Man C being willing to pay anything, and PSG as well. So while Arsenal was viewed by top players as having a fresh start a few years back, this is no longer the case. The club self-evidently has failed to move up the league, after coming second a year ago, and so with that image of failure painted by the press, and all the continuing issues with placards and planes last season, the club is certainly not the first choice of top players any more – as witness the number of players allegedly seeking to leave.

  • BFG

    Sorry Tony but you are under some illusion that Arsenal are the only team to be talked about/put down in radio phone-ins. personally love the phone ins and a lot of fans are passionate and knowledgeable and of course there are some who really have little to say. You have it in for anyone who is not behind Arsene and yet many of his supporters have phoned in only to repeat the mantra of ‘get behing the manager’ narrative with little else to say. Somewhat arrogant and egotistic of you to think you can read the minds of thousands of football fans and consider them all wrong and not quite erudite for your liking. Might add the bile you sling at West ham daily is hardly the workings ofa compassion, Buddha type who wants the world to think he is indeed in some other place that perhaps only the Arsenes (sic) of this world can occupy. Climb down lad – it’s a game of football and Arsenal now have to accustom themselves to being a Europa team for the foreseeable future and perhaps that explains their performance against a CL team with their tails up.

  • KR – “take it or leave it” is not, I think a phrase of mine. I think I’d prefer to say, I am fairly good at managing negative emotions, largely because I have learned how to do it. It’s not hard to achieve, it makes life much better, an it doesn’t affect the appreciation of the highs.

  • The problem with the discussion is that it so often gets opinion dropped in as fact, and then conclusions are drawn from the dropped in opinion as if it were a fact.

    You said, “Getting angry and frustrated is part of being a football fan”.

    I say, “no it isn’t for me”. Just because it is for some football fans – may be most – it doesn’t mean that I am less of a football fan because I have found ways of removing that.
    But I would give an opinion: that is in my view you are being very optimistic if you think this owner is leaving. Look at his other sporting ownerships and look how well or poorly they do, and then look at whether he walks away. I think you will find that they often don’t do very well, but he lets them jog along.

    Reflecting on that I find I don’t get angry about that either; but I suspect I know why.

  • Coyg

    Seems to me that football brings out irrational emotional responses, the media exploits that as much as possible and a lot of supporters of other teams love laughing at whinging gooners after we have lost (thanks aftv for feeding the enemy so well!), so they were gonna hype it up when it became apparent we would probably endure an embarassing result! Odd that people want to hold on to and broadcast these emotions to the world though (some of my language at the moment we concede a goal certainly wouldnt merit broadcasting and i wouldnt want it to!) I wonder what kind of “have your say” reaction there would have been if social media had existed and phone in shows had been so prevalent after our lacklustre 2-1 defeat to derby in the run up to anfield 89, or following our horrible 6-2 league cup defeat in the title winning season of 1990-91 for example! I understand the irony of my posting this ill thought out ramble on a comments board btw!

  • jet

    If you love Arsenal – the only way to oust the likes of Kroenke is to hit them in the pocket.
    Cut the snakes head off, boycott!

  • alexanderhenry

    Tony

    Stan will walk away if arsenal start losing money.
    He’s stubborn but he’s not stupid. Why keep hold of a diminishing asset especially when Usmanov is prepared to pay £1 billion for it?

  • Steve

    @Tony

    So what is your solution? What do you think needs to happen now?

  • Redsy

    Tony I think what fans here are saying today is that even if we didn’t have the media or the phone in lines or blogs to voice opinions on what we saw against Liverpool the weekend no one finds the performance acceptable.

    Are you right in what you said above yes but it doesn’t change the fact that something needs to drastically change.

    That’s coming from.readers of your site that I would say are probably better balanced and more open minded that what you will find elsewhere.

  • Dec

    Relax children, just for a change let us not overreact after 3 games.
    After ending last season on a high and winning the FA cup yet again, we’ve shown character to beat a decent Leicester side even without the help of our best player (Alexis) and our best defender (Kos). We then went to our least favourite ground (again without our top players) and despite dominating the game and having a perfectly good goal disallowed, lost 1-0.
    Yesterday was a bad performance, very bad and we got thumped by Liverpool at Anfield. Liverpool at Anfield????? Not some Micky mouse outfit at Les Ems. The sky hasn’t fallen in. Many teams will lose there this year. We’re NOT all of a sudden a bad team (despite what the numpties on Sky say). Arsene is not a bad manager. He didn’t wake up yesterday and decide he no longer loves Arsenal FC.
    Let’s be grown ups and wait ’til the flow of the season emerges and we get back on track.
    The next few days might change things on several fronts both in and out.
    The end of September is the earliest we can expect to judge any squad, even that is very early.

    Time for the voices of calm grown ups not hysterical spoiled children!!

  • Pat

    Tony, I admire your persistence in taking on all this negativity – I just wonder if it is worth it.

  • nicky

    @Dec,
    Well said.
    There are too many so-called followers of our great Club who consider we have a divine right to success. Immediately we have a setback, out they troop full of doom and gloom trying to pinpoint a culprit. Usually it is the manager but occasionally a player or two is earmarked for abuse and
    criticism.
    Despite much work going on behind the scenes, particularly during the transfer Windows, there is too much impatience and ignorance displayed by some who follow Arsenal FC.
    Better by far to trust those in charge who do their best. 😉

  • True, but given that there is no sign of a supporter revolt, and no shortage of sponsors, the club isn’t likely to lose money

  • Unlike most people who have been commenting today, I think the situation is very complex and the simple one-factor solutions that are often presented (such as change the manager) are not likely to work. We need to take into account the fact that three clubs in the league can spend vast amounts of money that Arsenal cannot lay its hands on.
    Much depends on the outcome of the CAS case against Manchester City – if Man C win then the laws relating to trading in players have more or less gone. If upheld, following the penalties against Liverpool and Man C over young players, there might just be a chance of an establishment of some kind of sanity. But otherwise in essence Man C, Chelsea, Man U, PSG, and Real Mad become a super elite, with Bayern and Barcelona trying to keep up. Those are the top group, we don’t have the finance to do anything against them except hope for wars or incompetence, because that is not what Kroenke does.

  • BFG

    So Ox is moving to Chelski as is Drinkwater and some bloke from Everton. Arsenal are proving too slow on and off the pitch. If Klopp gets Lemar then Arsenal will become slower just thinking about it!

  • BFG

    From Ant & Dec to Nicky & Dec. That’s showbiz!

  • alexanderhenry

    .. not yet

    I really feel that this is the season the wheels come off at arsenal though. When things go badly wrong at any PL club they really do go wrong. We still have a stadium debt to service and Stan will not put any of his money into the club. His reaction will be to sell off players as we did before. That puts the club in a downward spiral.
    Also the PL has got a lot more competitive. We are up against more clubs willing to spend big whether it be through sugar daddy owners or through the increased tv revenue.

    A 68 year old Wenger won’t be able to pull rabbits out of the hat like he used to. He should have left last season on a relative high, his reputation largely intact with his final contract honoured.
    Instead, he’s now in a pretty bad situation.

    Ox has gone to Chelsea by the way.

  • Thierry needs to pick his words more carefully, or maybe.leavong giz.wife and daughter and.playing on.the wing.were wworth the CL medal.

    Ox <£35m + clauses I'm happy.

    Thats Gibbs, Ox and Perez as soon as someone offers £17m

    Monreal and Theo next. Debouchy and Mustafi.

    Liverpool £55m Lemar bit and a Gabonese, Kante. £100m wasted.

    Finaly, you know.Liverpool would only have £100m if….. 🙂

    Real, come a wading in, you are up.

    Spuds just signed cb who can play rb, Toby!!! 😉

    It's all going to plan, Theo an Debo7chy are the awkward two!

    A thin squad is what we want.

    Of VVD comes in Muatarfi canleqv for £35m cash plus percentage of future sale.

    Tus players we want are waiting for us.

    4-1-1-3-1

  • Man Lemar is ok, but the reason Liverpool are after him is to cash in on the hype because they can nece sign anyone.

    They are trying to build but he’ll leave when the also rans rag settles in. Same with Spurs who renewed everyone, but Toby arguably the second best player behind Kane is a smart boy. Kane can go noatter if ur accepts all he has to do is scrore. City are foing tp vreak FFP because they dnt car about fines like PSG. Chelsea are feeling hot sp cutting out and cashing in lile casino money paunderes Remember all the otue four was will play Tuesday and prioritize, we don’t need to do great now, a good start was a bonus.

    Some people just like to belong and have no understanding of football.

    Arsene go help Biloc next, thats Danny and maybe Theo £45m for the pair, deal, get a free Deboucy for the numbers.

    Monreal back to spain with Perez, wait on Mustarfi and drop Elneny in Turkey.

    What is left is pure quality, Granit needs the bench, Couquelin back in, but get the DM if West Ham need a DM let them have Mo.

    Its all going to plan, he just has to go two out, 1 in 2 out 1 in 2 out, 2 or 3 in.

  • jet

    Arsenal have agreed to sell the OX to Chelsea, bean counters lying all this time!

  • Jjgsol

    I did a long post on my computer and sent it and it did not appear so, for some reason, my computer objects to this blog.

    I can assure you that I do not agree with it.

    I am doing this on my phone which is much harder to write so I won’t try it again.

    The point I was trying to make is that there are likely to be many factors and reasons behind the way the team played.

    Undoubtedly we know none of them.

    Aw had tactics in mind when he chose his team and their positions and it did not work. Klopp is quoted as saying that he changed his tactics and succeeded.

    The almost violent reaction every time we lose, especially when there has been a poor performance, belies the fact that there are these different reasons which none of us can fathom.

    Slinging mud at the manager is not really a solution to any problem.

    We know nothing about the players whilst the manager knows everything.

    The players on any particular occasion may be affected by not feeling well, having a row home or some other worrying matter which plays on their minds and therefore affects the way they play.

    We know nothing about this but the manager does.

    I daresay the transfer uncertainties affect the players involved and those not involved so , hopefully, by the time the next game comes around that possible cause of distraction for players will be history, as I hope yesterday’s performance will be.

  • Jjgsol

    If ox goes to chel$ki I have no doubt he will regret it.

    Having had so many years of benign leadership from aw he is going to find life under Conte a bit if a shock.

  • jet

    JJjgsol

    It’s called guidance/management.

  • Chris Nettleton

    After a while, you don’t even feel the crushing defeats and the religious devotion that keeps this club on a track that is only heading downhill. It just becomes numbness. I suppose that’s a form of self preservation, the psyche subliminally deciding that it’s better to let go of football altogether and go be interested in something else than have to endure this perpetual self flagellation. I’m so so tired.

  • Pat

    Wise words Jjgsol.

  • rob

    To me the majority of the criticism arsenal has faced has been result of bias or some kind of innate dislike ofthe club which means that when criticism is merited as yesterday it becomes vastly overboard some people just waiting for this bad performance to occur to justify everything’s g they have ever said there was considerable attacking flare in the first two matches. With the talent in the team we must improve

    I’m

  • Jjgsol

    Yes but what if the players ignore your guidance/management?

    Is anyone suggesting that aw told the players to go out there and play like novices?

  • jet

    I could agree if this was a one off occurrence!

  • Debouchy offered to Brighton for his wages alone! Get it done!

    Theo next.

    Then Danny and Montreal.

    I count Mustarfi next and Elneny in the same bracket.

    Go Arsene!

  • I wrote whole posts then the page crashes, then even when o write Ze English, it gets changed after i click comment. Plus someone is attaching adware, i thinl we are way off the mark, keep going lads!

  • Kos deserves everything CL and PL, we don’t have long! 😀

    Losing battles to win wars, Ox triggered Costa probably a loan until Jan, when they need him.

    We are late, hpw any did the CL champooms sell again so far? And how many first teamers came in?

    We are in good company with pur dealongs.

    I said we would spend tgia summer, last, he’s a fudging economist, i was the first person to announxe publocly on the news Brexot was atro ipus vusiness and about civil liberties ans market manipulation!

    Socio-economics is one of my strongest subjects.

    If he doesnt get this right, blame h and laugh at me!

  • Brazil physio drops the clanger, Coutinho is in perfect condition ahead of Brazil games :p

    Meanwhile sky try suggest Alexis handed in a transfer request ahead of their ‘dwvate’ show. Friday AW States what I know, he loves to be with us, but acknowledges something has to change!

    Last year is fine pay him, he’s a S American in England and works his socks off, he’ll pass if peopwt around him have enough quality.

    If you want it done properly do it yourself, if you fudge it at least you can take responsibility!

    Lemar rejected!Draxler next for them I expect!

  • Mandy Dodd

    Stan won’t release funds for us to keep up with Everton, never mind Utd, Psg, City and co.
    We,are always going to need a very smart manager even to finish in the top four. Wont always be easy to get once Wenger goes, which I personally fear may happen sooner than some may think.
    As we know, Stan isn’t really in it for titles, he said as much. Any future manager joins us knowing that. And the fact that some of the fanbase are a tad impatient these days. A well paid poison chalice, probably like most elite manager jobs in this game.

  • goonergerry

    Aport from Palace- this was the poorest least competitive performance by any team in the EPL this season.
    It seems that the manager and his supporters are at a loss to explain why-describing the permanence rather than explaining the reasons for it- yet no-one was surprised by this performance.- because it has been a regular occurrence against good sides on form.

    The only thing likely to change in in the next week -Arsenal football club will recoup around 100m by selling a couple of our players to our competitors.
    The only positive is that it
    Should keep the bank happy-for now.

  • omgarsenal

    What a sad pack of whiners and no-shows you lot are! when Arsenal win a game we don’t see or hear from you…..you bunch only come out when you can gloat and moan over a loss. I refer you to LeGrove, where your true soul-mates fester in muted anger and rage over Wenger and Arsenal.

  • Pat_97

    Hunter13 9.47. Records in europe ? Really… Explain that one.

  • Ygf24

    Another interesting article from the Flat Earth Society. The amount of debate here and the reactions from the club show just how apposite it is.
    My position remains that I am an Arsenal supporter and will support the team on the pitch. However, I am not blind to the failings of the club and would enourage the Board to make whatever changes are necesary off thr pitch to make us a functioning, competitive team again. Until thrn I reserve the right to express my opinion, even knowing that it will not make a blind bit of difference.

  • And that is where we differ Yg. Deliberately doing something that you know won’t work is aFlat Earth vision to me.

  • leany

    It is a surprise (?) that so many new (to me, at least; recently I haven’t been here much) commenters appeared after that loss. Almost all what I saw were posts from the new ones. But things that were written about aren’t new at all. Same old, same old accusations. Same old anger, outrage and whatnot.

    It’s like a circle going on and on. It gives the impression that the frustrated side is growing but it could well be that this side is just displaying itself more publicly. So, I’ve decided I wouldn’t be more upset than I had been many times before. There are already other sad things for me to worry about and I hope I could be a not-so-sad supporter come this September 3rd.

    “To Arsenal Football Club: Please sell them, sell them all. We need a brand-new team and manager to conquer the world as we should at this level.”

  • Flares

    OC doesn’t want to play for the Blues because he grew up idolising Stevie Me. His daydreams consist of pulling on a Liverpool shirt to spearhead a legendary midfield that lays waste to all before it. Never mind Alexander. It’s always there when you go to sleep. Then again, the rumoured £200k a week wages on offer at Chelsea might soften the blow. I hope he uses some of that cash to buy a new hairstyle. Awful jackass. Sanchez is a horrible little oik really, isn’t he? Smirking, arrogant and entitled, he’s almost the perfect modern Liberal blueprint except for the fact he actually has talent and the desire to better himself. Sell him I say, for a bottle of good rum and bag of doubloons. Scoundrel.

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