Untold Ref Review: Arsenal 1 – 2 Wigan Athletic

Posted on by WalterBroeckx

Today’s referee is Andre Marriner –

MATCH REVIEW DETAILS – Andre Marriner (2012-04-16)
Period 1
Min Type Foul from On C/NC Comment Weight
2 OTHER McArthur Rosicky C 1
3 OTHER RVP Di Santo C RVP could have been cautioned here, it was late 1
6 GOAL Di Santo C Hurt as much second and third time around 3
7 GOAL Gomez C Ouch 3
15 OTHER Vermaelen Wigan N/C Ref misses as Verminator gives a little push as he goes for an attacking header 1
20 GOAL Vermaelen C Great work by Rosicky 3
27 OTHER Wigan Theo C 1
28 OFFSIDE Di Santo C 1
30 OTHER Di santo Ramsey N/C ref was right there but missed a little trip on the heel 1
32 OTHER Sagna Moses C 1
32 YELLOW Sagna C An easy yellow 2
34 OTHER McArthur Ramsey C 1
36 OTHER Benayoun Alcaraz C 1
37 OTHER Song J Gomez N/C Nothing wrong with this challenge 1
39 OTHER Djourou C Handball, may have been generous, but the ref was entitiled to give it 1
40 OTHER Walcott Wigan C 1
40 OTHER Boyce C Handball 1
42 OTHER Figueroa Rosicky C 1
44 OTHER Moses RVP C 1
45 OTHER Wigan Djourou N/C He came over the top of JD, not allowing him to jump 1
45 OTHER Song Di Santo N/C Song was again harshly treated, should have been a foul to JD 1
46 OTHER Vermaelen Wigan N/C Came from behind, he did not get the ball 1
Period 2
Min Type Foul from On C/NC Comment Weight
45 OTHER Wigan Ramsey C 1
46 OTHER Figueroa Benayoun N/C A nudge on the edge of the box as the ball is in air 1
50 OTHER Gomez Santos C 1
51 OTHER Benayoun Boyce N/C A shove on the line but Ref is unsighted 1
51 OTHER Di Santo Walcott C Going with Ref but I cant see anything 1
58 OTHER N/C Ref allows Wigan to steal 18 yards at a throw in, they nearly score after some awful defending from Santos and JD 1
59 OTHER Caldwell Ramsey C 1
59 YELLOW Caldwell C 2
62 OFFSIDE RVP C 1
65 OTHER Di Santo C Handball, assumed correct 1
67 OTHER Song Figarola C Just, only just 1
68 OTHER Rosicky Figarola C 1
69 OTHER Djourou Wigan N/C Clattered him from a corner when he timed run wrong 1
71 OTHER Song McArthur C 1
71 YELLOW Song C Ref was entitled to caution, but I feel it is harsh 2
73 OTHER Di Santo Rosicky C 1
74 OTHER Di Santo Vermaelen C 1
77 OTHER Chamberlain Salmon N/C Nothing in it, if anything Salmon had fouled Chambo 2 seconds earlier 1
77 OFFSIDE Salmon C 1
84 OTHER Figueroa Walcott N/C Theo had been waiting for some grass in front of him, and he was taken out with no contact on the ball, clear foul 1
84 YELLOW Figueroa N/C Should have been a yellow, Theo was away 2
85 OTHER Gervinho Boyce C 1
86 OTHER Salmon Vermaelen C 1
87 OTHER Song Salmon C Salmon had overun the ball, it ran through to Sagna, But Song caught Salmon 1
88 OTHER Figueroa Ramsey N/C He gives him a shove as he delivers ball into box 1
89 OTHER Santos Diame C 1
90 OTHER Rosicky Figarola N/C Rosicky got his body across, he did not foul him 1
91 YELLOW Al Habsi C Ref remembers the laws on delaying the restart 4
93 OTHER Salmon Sagna C 1
94 OTHER McArthur Rosicky C 1
94 OTHER McArthur C 2

Arsenal were stitched up by a Referee against Wigan, but it was not Andre Marriner, It was Michael Jones at Stamford Bridge. The poor display by the official In the Chelsea V Wigan game resulted in a public announcement that  Mike Riley had called Roberto Martinez personally to apologise. Only one thing could happen subsequently, the next time Wigan played a big club, every effort would be made to show that there is no bias against the smaller clubs. Well Andre Marriner was certainly in a generous mood to Wigan. He reffereed the game in a manner that, whenever it was possible,  gave them the benefit of the doubt.  He allowed Wigan to take their time as and when they wanted to, he allowed them take a minute over substitutions, and delay the restart at goal kicks and free kicks, at the same time he insisted Arsenal were not allowed to take quick free kicks. It was frustrating for the spectators, and the watching Gooner TV public. But those from other clubs would just have been impressed by the Wigan work rate and professionalism.

The match had few contentious moments, what Marriner awarded to Wigan on the whole was a matter of interpretation, he will say he added time on for delaying the restart, and that he did caution Al Habsi for the same, although he waited until the game was effectively over to do it, that alone renders the caution wothless and tokenist, and the time taken to issue the caution is simply MORE TIME LOST!!!!  Marriner was like I said prepared to show them leniency, after all the laws do not state how long it should take to take a goal kick, or a free kick, or how far a ball must be kicked away from the incident before it is actually kicked away, these are all at the discretion of the Ref . In the 84th minute that leniency took a sinister twist. Theo had a difficult night against a team allowing him no space to run in behind, and in truth his first touch all night had not been great. He was the right side of Figueroa, and was at last looking at grass, he had been waiting all night for this moment. Right in front of the assistant he was charged out. It was just outside of the box, and there was a covering defender. It was certainly a foul and a yellow card. But not on this night, so we then consider the instructions to the assistants, had Marriner told them before the game, I will do the fouls?? That too is his prerogative.

Some statistics

Arsenal took an average of 18 seconds to take a goal kick, Wigan 33 seconds for the 12 goal kicks they had, that is a total of 6.5 minutes for Wigan goal kicks!  Arsenal took an average 20 seconds to take a corner, Wigan 30. Did the Ref add enough time to compensate that, and the other time wasting by Wigan? He will argue that 3 in the first half and 5 in the second was sufficient. Gooners will scream otherwise.

I was at the game, we were far from at our best, and the injury to Arteta hit us harder than we would all have liked. But I said to my mate, as he screamed at Al Habsi for the umpteenth time,  “if you don’t want Wigan to take their time, score first, don’t give them anything to defend”. We can argue all we want about the clock, and the Referees leniency, but Wigan are fighting for their lives, they played with passion, organisation and professionalism. Circumstances also fell their way in this game, and they took advantage. I have to say, Well done Latics, and Roberto Martinez, I hope to see you next season.

 

COMPETENCY SUMMARY – Andre Marriner (2012-04-16)
Period 1 Called Total Correct %
GOAL 3 3 100.00
OFFSIDE 1 1 100.00
OTHER 11 17 64.71
YELLOW 1 1 100.00
TOTAL 16 22 72.73
WEIGHTED 23 29 79.31
Period 2 Called Total Correct %
OFFSIDE 2 2 100.00
OTHER 17 25 68.00
YELLOW 3 4 75.00
TOTAL 22 31 70.97
WEIGHTED 26 36 72.22
Totals Called Total Correct %
GOAL 3 3 100.00
OFFSIDE 3 3 100.00
OTHER 28 42 66.67
YELLOW 4 5 80.00
TOTAL 38 53 71.70
WEIGHTED 49 65 75.38

A score just acceptable for the whole game.

BIAS SUMMARY – Andre Marriner (2012-04-16)
Period 1 Arsenal % Wigan Athletic % Total
Correct For 8 50.00 8 50.00 16
Correct For Weighted 10 43.48 13 56.52 23
Incorrect Against 4 66.67 2 33.33 6
Incorrect Against Weighted 4 66.67 2 33.33 6
Fouls Commited 6 50.00 6 50.00 12
Fouls Penalised 4 66.67 5 83.33 9
Period 2 Arsenal % Wigan Athletic % Total
Correct For 15 65.22 8 34.78 23
Correct For Weighted 19 67.86 9 32.14 28
Incorrect Against 8 88.89 1 11.11 9
Incorrect Against Weighted 9 90.00 1 10.00 10
Fouls Commited 8 40.00 12 60.00 20
Fouls Penalised 6 75.00 9 75.00 15
Totals Arsenal % Wigan Athletic % Total
Correct For 23 58.97 16 41.03 39
Correct For Weighted 29 56.86 22 43.14 51
Incorrect Against 12 80.00 3 20.00 15
Incorrect Against Weighted 13 81.25 3 18.75 16
Fouls Commited 14 43.75 18 56.25 32
Fouls Penalised 10 71.43 14 77.78 24

Still no sign to be seen about things starting to even out for Arsenal. Again the wrong calls favoured the other team.

The 57 minute game: Arsenal v Wigan

Untold Ref Reviews …

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45 Replies to “Untold Ref Review: Arsenal 1 – 2 Wigan Athletic”

  2. Well, there’s always a next game/season. If Wigan survive, let’s beat the crap out of them next season in both games (and more if there are any)! 🙂

  4. Apart from allowing time wasting abuse by Wigan, the ref did quite well, I think. And I’ve got the same idea with the reviewer that the ref seemed to try to ‘even things out’ for Wigan after what happened at the Bridge. The ref anywhere except EPL is not allowed to do that.

    2 quick goals, losing Arteta and hard fight by Wigan gave us no point. Just like AW said, Wigan deserves the win.

  5. Thanks for this review.

    A question: At approx 7:40 mins. into the match and with Wigan having just scored, Song had the ball and then ‘lost the ball’ which ended up with Wigan’s 2nd goal. However, as Song ran infield from the right, three Wigan players were close to him. The first Wigan player gave a little push on Song which unbalanced him. The second Wigan player then “braced” himself and shoulder charged Song who tumbled arse over tit. This was how Wigan got control of the ball. In my opinion it was this one-two of fouls that made Song lose the ball and one of the fouls should’ve been called by ref Marriner who was very close to the incident.

    I did see this at the time and I’ve seen it since, but I’m not a ref. May I ask the reviewer of this match to comment, please?

    I wouldn’t mind Wigan going down. I’m not a fan of their manager. Too often his teams have kicked us around and gotten away with it, on top of which, Martinez, for me, speaks ‘cloak&dagger-shite’ in his interviews. When Wigan were robbed by decisions in the Chelsea match, his after-match comments smacked of a ‘set piece’ whereby he could criticise officials, get an apology (and as you pointed out – get forthcoming favourable decisions), provided he stuck to the ‘we don’t want/need’ video review. Why doesn’t RM want video reviews?

    Again, an excellent review.

  6. rantetta,
    Great point! In the previous loss (theft) press conference, Martinez not so subtly threatens to reveal some dark stuff, then shows how he’s a good boy and won’t (yet) call for video replay, as you note. This, in turn, garners “a certain degree of consideration” and perhaps your very well-spotted Uncalled Song Incident becomes The Marriner’s “rebalancing act,” lest Martinez get seasick again and spill his innards.

    RefReviewer, please do weigh in on this NON-call and with any further thoughts on the “re-pay” factor.

  7. Revierw,
    Just wondering, are you being dispassionate or resigned or ironic or all when you say these?:
    “these are all at the discretion of the Ref”
    “had Marriner told them before the game, I will do the fouls?? That too is his prerogative”

    You can distinguish between who did us, but I prefer to connect the dots. It’s a system that is mendacious and self-protecting that has led to these internal acts of rebalancing, so as to keep irate men like Martinez from spilling all the beans, you see. And they did. They worked it out. Martinez pulled in his reins, just at the line; and the Beehives of Riley phoned in a kinda culpa apology and winked at better things to come. And they did, on the pitch that you rightly point out was tilted since the previous week. But you point a finger at that ref, when you well understand it’s more than that ref.

    To me this is RefShite (as in institutional, not individual ref) at work: The rules need further refinement as well as proper enforcement; these interpretive loopholes allow these retroactive acts of “balancing” that should not exist. Each match should be it’s own self-containted entity. A match should not be about justice – as in the oxyMORON known as referee applied justice -, but the fair application of the rules in each match on its own. The systematic violation of this common sense understanding of fairness and professionalism disqualifies PGMOL from legitimacy.

    Any laying the blame on Michael Jones, even equal blame with Riley, obscures the larger institutional issue that your review lays bare.

  8. Thanks for the review. A very poor ref.
    Thought the ref in the Utd game today was…shall we say interesting….

  9. Bob.
    Thanks for your input. My (biased?) starting point prior to kick-off was that ref Marrinator would tilt the pitch. The question was how!

    At the start of a game most refs either let a few fouls go or they call them, (or both). Sometimes a ref will ignore small fouls committed by Ars players, but I believe this is just so that later non-fouls/fouls can be awarded against us. This is particularly important for non-fouls/fouls committed within, say, 35 yards of Ars’s goal. Having said that, or, ‘be that as it may’, when it comes to non-fouls/fouls committed against Ars’s player’s, the 35 yard ‘thingy’ comes into play – not only so the ref doesn’t give Ars a call (TW14 clearly mown-down 87th min), but also the camera-shots shown are from as far as possible away. (And the ref is far away too, as this is often a “late break” or counter attack. Never mind, one way or another Arsenal aren’t gonna get these calls. We’re not ManU.

    The chief of the non-foul/foul – call/non-call is the dastardly don dats de dancing doyen of derisory, disgusting decisions – M Dean.

    Somebody pointed out that the ref who officiated our previous match (Swarbrick, I think) was 4th official, so that he ‘could learn’ how to do it properly. (That is to **** up Arsenal with the decisions).

    This all makes me think that experienced Prem. refs. actually see everything and simply ignore stuff according to their ‘script’. When an Ars player is fouled, especially in or near the penalty box, note how the refs turn away almost before the ‘offending’ player has hoofed the ball up the pitch towards the Arsenal goal. A great example of this is Gervinho’s sending off early in the season. The ref had a good view of Gerv being tripped. Another Newcky player hit the ball away and the ref instantly turned his back on the incident. This immediate turning away from an incident like that is seen by player’s who’ve committed the foul and those same players are facing the same way as the ref, so they can see he’s not looking – hence (in this case) – Barton took it upon himself to drag Gervy up by his collar and remonstrate – aided and abetted by Taylor and one other.

    Were Arsenal charged – bringing game into disrepute – as well as having Song latterly banned, etc? Were Newcastle charged with the same thing even though it was clearly they who made all of the trouble? Was the whole caboodle with the Newcky and Liverpool games manufactured to weaken Arsenal ahead of the trip to Old Toilet?

    I think we should be told.

  10. @Mandy you could see the word fix all over it i.e the united match..me thinks they did it so that sky and betting companies have their glamour “tittle deciding” match and also make Don Fungus XX even more dramatic..what a better way for united and SlurAlex to get the 20th tittle than at the home of their closest rival? Also it will go a long way in healing the wounds of the old toilet humiliation..who wants to bet Howard Webb will be “appointed” to ref this match? Heck i think Riley might be able to sneak in without garnering attention to witness the coronation ceremony…

  11. Agree with you on all points there Mahdain. Just hope Citeh fans let the watching world know in no uncertain terms if Webb gets up to his usual tricks. All things being equal, Citeh have the quality to win that.
    I will wait for the ref review, but today, looked like Fergie time being played, I was also intrigued by the ref stopping play for a Utd injury, but letting play go on for an Everton injury.

  12. Mahdain, Mandy

    Why do you think the ManU match was fixed for ManU to drop points? I watched all of that match except from around the 72nd minute mark to the 88th minute cos my tv signal conked out. So i didn’t see how Everton got back to 4-4 from 4-2 down. Did anything happen that favoured Everton? To me, everything seemed like it was pretty fair, with things like Ferguson joking around with the 4th official, and the 5 mins added on time being the only things that favoured ManU..which is why they dropped points.

    I think they may not have been helped today for the reason you say. But I don’t think they meant them to draw. It’s just that ManU blew it.

  13. @Shard maybe im reading too much in it..everton were not really helped but i dont know really..united still have it in their favour and with Riley and his mob behind em maybe they convinced him to let them draw with the offer of city getting screwed at etihad..i think time(next monday) will tell

  14. Mahdain,

    Just a quick one for you. If the premier league is fixed so that Man Utd can win it at Man City, would we also be able to say it has been fixed for Arsenal, particularly when we won it in 2004 at WHL??

    Just food for thought.

  15. @All

    Watched the game, nothing to suggest any tampering by the official, however it has been noted Riley apologies to Manchini prior to kick off, just a thought.

  16. The Countdown is on:
    Does/did anyone recall/notice that circus maximus that’s in store for us as the EPL’s plan: IF (cough, cough, sorry, when) ManUre finally wins the league away at ManShitty, the losing hosts (ManShitty) are supposed to line up in a yes, Guard of Honor (its term) that will pay homage (strew rose petals, jock straps or give heartfelt applause?) to ManUre’s minions as they humbly pass by on their walkway to receive the cup – The Rednose XX. Being in the Guard of Honor is an exquisite show of “sportsmanship” to demand of the second-best losers. What an true expression of the (do I dare say sadistic nature of) the exercise known as the Rednose XX. And, Stuart, if ManUre does not win, then before the heavens fall I will apologize to you for such effrontery as to suggest it’s all been decided from before day one and is being played out in the best World Wrestling Foundation style for our rapt edification. The only possible fly in the ointment will be if Ashley Young mistakes the coronation procession for a match and dives, pretending to be tripped by one of the Guard of Honor.

  17. @Stuart

    Yes. It could. Yet, no one thought of it then, did they? Why not? Well ok..maybe they weren’t ready for the idea. But tell me how many incidents of Arsenal getting away with bad calls, and getting bad calls in their favour do you remember from the entire era? How many penalties did we get then? How many goals margin did we usually win by? How many red cards were given to teams who played against us? Anything to suggest that the league was fixed for Arsenal then, beyond just tainting our achievement by comparing that team to this shit that Manchester United puts out?

  18. Stuart we should have lost it there but we didn’t read the script properly 😉

  19. Ha ha, very good Walter, yes, the team were making it up as they went along.

    Shard. Pires and Vieira used to get away with quite alot (I used to cringe at some of the free kicks Pires won) however with Vieira I think it was more because he picked his fights with the hard men so the refs probably let it go quite often.

    Bob, not saying it hasn’t been decided or at least influenced, just pointing out we have been beneficiaries of similar circumstance.

  20. p.s. Oh, and note well: it’s not merely an Honor Guard, the phrase, but a “Guard of Honor”. Indeed, every ounce of horse-shite royale that can be squeezed out of the occasion, will be squeezed out. And sure as shittin’, The Media is gettin’ busy preparing the headline-bunting to festoon Don Fungus’s ascension to immortality, morphing, with each step, and personal interview, and photo-op, and TV special and kultural klimax into Lord Football. His pinky ring is being fit as we sleep. The one hope to reign on this parade: to win the public’s hearts and minds by completing The Great Turnaround, so that a thousand languages can celebrate our joy.

  21. Shard, just the impression I got during certain stages of the game really, a lot of injury time that I could not really see any reason for (I did miss about 15 mins of the game), stopping the game for an injured Utd player but not doing so when an Everton player was injured. But I am not a ref, and as I say, will wait for the ref review.
    But, as you say, whatever the circumstances, Utd blew it. And I will be very interested to see who gets the to ref the Citeh game

  22. Yes, Stuart, and once Veira was gone, did Vidic not have the permanent get out of jail free card? (Passing Joey Barton on the way in, of course.)

  23. to all there is a high chance im imagining things but as mandy says lets just wait and see who is “appointed” to ref the derby and im sure its not that hard for any of us to guess who will it be

  24. Mahdain,
    I’ve heard a rumor out of Hong Kong that Micky R himself was being deputized to come out of “retirement” with the Webbmaster, THE DEAN and a mysterious fourth official yet to be named. The Hong Kong betting is totally focused on who will be “appointed” to the mystery man. Are you not breathless with anticipation?

  25. Stuart

    Yes..Vieira got a red card for kicking air after getting kneed in the back by Ruud Van Nistelrooy.. who also kicked Ashley Cole (then an Arsenal player) right in front of the linesman..

    As for getting away with quite a lot? Are you saying Vieira and Pires used to get away with fouls, or get a lot of fouls called in their favour? Sorry..when it comes to Pires, the only dive they mention is against Portsmouth, and that was a blatant dive. I can’t seem to remember any more.. Can you? Vieira would not get away with more than most other players of the time. The league was more physical then than it is now. Remember Henry’s backheel goal against Charlton? See the defender hanging off of him..That would be a definite penalty now.. at that time, we didn’t think of it as a foul. I seem to remember talk of Arsenal being a dirty team at the time..as evidenced by the number of red cards we received. Surely we would have got a lot less of them if the league was trying to help us win? Similar circumstances? Evidence Stuart. Us winning the league at Old Trafford, and at the Totts is not evidence.. It’s just a fact, which you use to create a theory.. Or as I said..is that even your theory? Or did you just throw it our there as ‘food for thought’..which would mean what exactly?

  26. Shard, Pires was awful for simulation and provoking the opposition, it quite often blighted his true skill in my opinion. Vieira quite often was heavy handed in his challenges, I doub he’d get to play a full 90 minutes now.

  27. @bob Riley coming out of retirement to ref that match would be something but with his secondhand Webb alive and kickingdoes he need to? and what was with Fergie chatting and laughing with Mr Friend as if they are..erm… friends? Strange considering the number of times Wenger is told to sit down by 4th officials whenever he gets near to them

  28. Just so I can nip this in the bud.. Here’s some disciplinary stats

    FPM= Fouls per match
    FPC= Fouls per card
    CPM= Cards per match

    TF= Total Fouls
    TC= Total Cards

    Arsenal ManU

    2003-04 2011-12 2003-04 2011-12
    FPM 14 9.94 12.92 9.2
    FPC 9.67 5.19 10.67 7.32
    CPM 1.45 1.91 1.21 1.26

    TF 532 348 491 322
    TC 55 67 46 44

    %of cards that were red
    5 6 4 2

    So Stuart.. next time you dare say that that Invincible team won the league under ‘similar circumstances’ to this current ManU team, you might want to bring more than, I remember Pires getting away with cringeworthy stuff etc and actually try and show something. If not..then why bring it up? Mahdain’s argument wasn’t that the league is fixed because ManU will win the title at City. His contention was that ManU will win the league at City because the league is fixed. Don’t try and confuse that with bringing up Arsenal’s past achievements and tainting them with ManU’s rottenness.

  29. Damn the formatting..I’m not going to do it again though..the point still remains..

  30. Re the food for thought. I’m playing devils advocate, that’s all. What if there is corruption taking place against Arsenal? Is it not also possible for that same corruption to have worked in Arsenals favour at a time when Arsenal were doing well considering Dein had much influence both inside and outside of Arsenal afterall, we’ve not had the trophies we became accustomed too since he left.

  32. Where are you getting your stats from?? Are they reliable? And do you want to read what Mahdain wrote again. It reads clearly to me that it is their wish for UTD to win the league at Man City. “Glamour ‘tittle deciding’ Match” and “20th tittle than at the home of their closest rival”

    “you could see the word fix all over it i.e the united match..me thinks they did it so that sky and betting companies have their glamour “tittle deciding” match and also make Don Fungus XX even more dramatic..what a better way for united and SlurAlex to get the 20th tittle than at the home of their closest rival?”

  33. No evidence, but unless we have a tape or confession or something stating then we never will have

  34. Mahdain’s comment indicated his opinion that ManU will win the title at City. This is because he believes the league is fixed in ManU’s favour. You are applying the converse of that logic. The extent of your ‘similar circumstances’ is that Arsenal won the league at Spurs, so that league could be fixed as well. Converse of a rule isn’t always true, and in this case makes almost no sense at all.

    My stats are from the Premier League’s official site.. Which actually makes me doubt their authenticity now that you mention it

  36. Mahdain,
    Agreed that Micky R doesn’t need to come out of retirement, but how can he resist The Great Temptation: Behold: what better for him than to have started his ascent to Queen Bee status by granting ManUre the win that stopped our glory at Old Toilet; and then capping it all off with overseeing ManUre’s XXth at the home of their biggest rival in 2012. Please Micky, Please consider doing this. You would go down in Football History as The Enabler in Chief of the Rednose XX. SlurAlex would pat you on the head as you then kissed his pinky ring and your photo, on bended knee, would adorn the Manchester Guardian, and the Sun, and the Mirror and become a cultural icon for the ages. “Micky, Micky you’re so fine, Micky Mick you blow my mind, hey Micky!,” rhymes Don Fungus as the other one’s do the Dean Dance. Alas.

    The sole antidote: unity of all gooner-gunners, complete The Great Turnaround, and clinching The Non-Manchester trophy where it truly counts – in our hearts and minds. C’mon you Gunners!

  37. Stuart,
    Your demand for courtroom evidence is pure sophistry. You use it to play your boring “devil’s advocate” game and feel content to have “won” an argument which is rigged. We have imperfect knowledge, no smoking guns, and you know it. So we go with the preponderance of the available evidence, the possible evidence, and where it points. So acknowledge that you have been driven into demanding the impossible as the only true evidence and that you are “really” playing devil’s advocate to conceal your actual acceptance of the bent status quo.

    Perhaps, Shard, you will recall that former tireless sophist of last season who used to haunt these premises, for posting after posting after posting, and drove us to drink with pretty much Stuart’s selfsame argument? Damn, Dark Prince was it? I’m blanking on his name. So much for glory…

    Stuart, it seems you don’t about or are anxious by the push hereabouts for transparency; but perhaps some of the energy that drives your pretzel logic could be more productively spent on research-based evidence; or, alternatively, hanging out with the minions at LeGrovel?

  39. Shard,
    That (those) crude Van Nistelrooy moments, and his cutsey victory slide before the shrieking adoring multitudes at Old Toilet – all celebrating Micky R’s big lie theft that has just taken place in broad daylight – while Don Fungus does his 1939-style victory jig continues to blow my little mind. Of all the villainy, somehow that spectacle says it all to me, as the countdown continues.

  41. United v Everton
    I think the ref did well. There’s no clear favorable decisions towards any team. Maybe only the part when there’s an everton player fell injured but united refused to stop the play and then scored a goal. Moyes was furious because Everton stopped, in the first half, when Fabio fell injured.

    I think it’s more of United blew it because they are actually not a good team. Whenever other teams play without worrying about the ref, united always had a hard time. Blackburn, Fulham, Wigan, and now Everton. They’re top of the league just because a huge huge help from the ref. Teams are scared of the ref, not United and that makes a huge difference (overly cautious) in their performance on the pitch.

    Regarding The Invincibles, I genuinely believe that other teams are truly scared of Arsenal attacking force at that time. Who wouldn’t? Bergkamp’s vision, Henry’s pace, Pires’ creativity, and many more.

  42. Bob,
    Thanks for your (somewhat immature) snappy & ill tempered response.

    If you can’t deal with the fact that someone likes to look at things from both sides of the coin and indeed check all the coins in the box and make up their own opinion then there is no point in having discussions with you.

    I don’t really appreciate what is on the verge of an insulting comment from the likes of you whom I can only clearly deem a bully. The fact that I take this bias very seriously should be what is important, not your opportunity to have a pop at someone because their opinion / methods may or may not differ from yours just so that you can put yourself in what you think is a dominating position. Why should anyone take you seriously when you are not open to considering all the options?? That itself is a bias!! Without considering and accepting every possibility, an argument has no credibility and any discoveries will only be ignored even if they happen to be correct. Great isn’t it, a biased investigation into bias. What a waste of time that would be!

    I’m not here trying to upset anyone however I am also not someone in nature similar to a sheep who will just believe what anyone tells or writes to me. I ALWAYS question what is put in front of me. As a salesman I know people only tell people what they need to tell them in order to convince them so it is safe to believe that there must be someone else out there who also does the same. Furthermore, your insulting and blinkered attitude will only drive people away. People who were perhaps 50/50 and could have otherwise been brought on side and lets face it, our argument of bias here is going to be received far more seriously with more people behind it.

    As for likening me to the negative drivel to be found on Le Grove……I refer you to the first line of this response.

  43. Stuart,
    How about evidence for your pov?
    You can bang on all you want about impoliteness. Yes, it’s true. But evidence-free devil’s advocacy (what you call looking at both sides) is not a substitue for principled argument. I apologize for my aggressiveness toward your comments, but I also think you have continued to avoid evidence in making your case(s). Raising sky-high demands for evidence is not principled in my opinion. If we engage again, I’ll be polite, you surely do deserve that, but I will ask you for evidence.

  44. Bob,
    How abut throwing things to be considered into the pot for everyone to consider.

    I don’t particularly have the time or resource to spend much time on it otherwise I would but I do have opinions and suggestions. I too feel strongly about this and am merely trying to say it would be a shame for the people concerned to put so much work into investigating and reporting only for someone in power to initially take it seriously and then dismiss it for being to one sided or incomplete. I’m not trying to prove you (or others) right or wrong but making sure all the i’s are dotted and the t’s crossed.

  45. Hi Ref Reviewer

    Would it be possible for you to reply to

    rantetta April 22, 2012 at 2:27 pm?

    Rantetta refers to Song – I think it was Walcott, but Gomez seemed to shoulder charge Theo in the chest when Theo played the ball away from him.

    Of course, this lead directly to the second goal!!

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