By Tony Attwood. Further research by Ian Brookes
I have in the past written a few times about the development of Tottenham’s new stadium, and my ramblings on the subject have brought in a fair amount of “you’re fixated on Tottenham” and “you should worry about when the Emirates is half empty next season after another trophy-less year” type of comment.
I’m hoping we might avoid such comments this time, not least because Ian and I have entered this subject area genuinely wanting to know what is going on.
Arsenal’s development work at the Queensland Road end of the ground is still going on, although the site itself was sold off on 22 June 2012). But I have found it hard to follow exactly what is happening with Tottenham’s stadium. So I am looking for help.
On the Tottenham web site the article you reach by clicking that link was was posted one year ago today (hence my article on this day). (Sod’s law is they might now update that today, but with luck the article should be visible below whatever new piece is put up).
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The actual development of the ground was announced back in 2011, with the statement that
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• The new stadium will be a world class venue with a capacity of 56,250, using flowing lines of external cladding, a gracefully undulating roof and the Club colours to create a unique and visually striking building.
• The key priority has been to maximise stadium atmosphere. Spectators will have a great view of the action and will find themselves closer to the pitch than at any other comparable size stadium in the UK.
• The key priority has been to maximise stadium atmosphere. Spectators will have a great view of the action and will find themselves closer to the pitch than at any other comparable size stadium in the UK.
Ian and I are not developers, but we’re both company directors, so we have a passing knowledge of these things. At the simplest level its clear that the cost of the project should be much lower than the cost of the Emirates, because they are building onto one side of the existing ground. Also earlier requirements to provide social housing have been dropped. But Tottenham won’t get the windfall Arsenal got from the sale of land for housing.
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Now what I can’t find – and this is where I seriously hope that I can have help from anyone, is a date for opening, although we make a guess at the end of this piece. The article quoted above one year ago says, “Expected opening late 2013/early 2014” but that must refer only to the supermarket. Comments on Tottenham blogs suggest 2017.
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Arsenal were fortunate in moving at a time when the funding was readily available, and had two other factors on their side. One was the issue of the sale of the Highbury apartments, noted above, and the other was the experiment Arsenal undertook by moving Champions League games to Wembley and showing that the club could fill that stadium for every game. That made the raising of the money from banks more achievable in the eyes of those lending the money.
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The Islington Council approved what became the Emirates on 10 December 2001 and Arsenal were clear to start work in July 2002 following a rejection of a challenge by local residents. The first game was on 22 July 2006. Four and a half years from approval to finish.
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Tottenham announced its intention to develop in 2007, and on 21 August 2009 announced that it was issuing 30 million new shares to raise £15 million to fund the first stage of the ground.
Then the club submitted a planning application to Haringey Council in October 2009, planning to start construction in 2010. But in May 2010 the club withdrew the application and put in a revised plan which reduced the number of newly built houses and this was approved on 30 September 2010. But the following month Tottenham bid for the Olympic stadium – but that went to WHU in October 2011.
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Which brings us up to the latest twist, and really this is the bit I would like information on for it seems the club is interested in changing the design of the stadium and has asked Populous, (who planned the Olympic Stadium, Wembley and the Ems) to come up with plans.
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The much quoted Fighting Cock podcast has seemingly said, “Bringing in Populous does not fill me with much hope – stadiums like Wembley, the Emirates and the Olympic Stadium are not known for having a buzzing atmosphere and are very corporate and soulless. It is imperative that work starts on this new stadium soon as we need more tickets available and have to compete financially with clubs like Arsenal who are making more matchday revenue than us.”
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So my question is why change the designers at this stage, and also what is the latest thought for the opening date?
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In answer to the first part of that question I am going to hazard a guess. The original Tottenham plan has, as they say, the fans much closer to the pitch than is the case at the Emirates or other new, large, stadi. That raises the question, why is the Ems not like that?
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Of course one can answer that the designers are useless and don’t understand grounds, and that the board at Arsenal didn’t bother to think about the fans. OK, that’s a view. Many arguments in football, especially where supporters of two clubs are involved, degenerate into this sort of opinion – that the club is badly run and so bad decisions are made.
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The problem is we simply can’t get far beyond the assertion of that statement and it doesn’t help understanding much since there’s no real evidence. So let’s try another possibility.
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There are FA, EPL and Uefa regulations as to how football grounds are laid out and used, including the amount of seats allocated to visiting board members, the space for the media, the exact size of the pitch etc. There are also arrangements for breaking these regulations in the case of old stadia that have been upgraded to meet the current requirements. But it is clear, new stadia must be built to these regs.
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Now my understanding has been that the Emirates met these regs and got the fans as close to the pitch as was allowed by the Premier League and Uefa under its regulations for new grounds. The problem is, I can’t find the exact regulation – although I am certain it is there somewhere because three times I have heard it referred to by people who clearly know about this stuff. I’ve got all the stuff on the size of the pitch (which is very exact) but not the distance of the crowd to the playing area.
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I am going to guess (and yes it is a complete guess) that the initial plan at Tottenham was to circumvent the regulations on distance from the pitch by using the argument that this was not a wholly new development, but was in fact a redevelopment of an existing ground. I think that the League may well have informally indicated that it would oppose that idea, which is what led to the attempt to move to Stratford, and the new approach to the design of the stadium – which will now follow the regulations for new grounds.
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I know that many Tottenham fans have said the Emirates is soulless, and indeed I have heard Arsenal fans say that too. And yes, I would agree, that on occasion it can be. This problem however is not, I believe due to the design. It is due to the approach of fans who take the view that the team needs to work harder first, and then the fans will give their support.
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I take this view based on the fact that on occasion the ground has been very emotional indeed. One just has to remember the last game there to think of how the ground was utterly alive. I’d also think back to the Milan game in the Champions League where we started with a 0-4 deficit, and many other occasions, plus the Barcelona games in the Champs League.
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As I say, this explanation is a guess, to explain the delays – although it doesn’t get us any closer to the opening date. With new plans yet to be drawn up, I presume they will have to go to the Council, and then having got approval they will have to build the place. It took Arsenal 4.5 years to do the job, and maybe Tottenham could be less, but then we still have the plans to be drawn up and approval given. So if we add six months for the plans to be drawn up and six months for approval that takes us to somewhere up to 2018, maybe 2019.
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As I say, I don’t know why the old plans have been dropped, or why part way through the whole process Tottenham went for the Olympic stadium having got the first planning permission. I do wish someone could tell me, preferably without calling me various names because of the club I support.
Recent posts
- Ref review 2012/13: Jonathon Moss. Over 90% right.
- Bendtner or ????
- Ref review 2012/13: Howard Webb. An amazing score when it comes to goals
- Untold Non-League: Lillywhites see off the Bluebirds
- Attack and defence, defence and attack
- How Arsenal played the media over Özil: the smelling of the rat
The books…
- Woolwich Arsenal: The club that changed football – Arsenal’s early years
- Making the Arsenal – how the modern Arsenal was born in 1910
- The Crowd at Woolwich Arsenal FC: crowd behaviour at the early matches
I am not sure why an Arsenal fan is so interested in a Tottenham stadium but to answer what I can answer for you from my working background.
Its not unusual when you are planning a project of this scale to get additional input from another firm, main reason being you want to utilize the space as best as possible and two heads are better than one.
It states clearly in the press release and subsequent statement from Spurs that nothing is being replaced or re done it is purely some interior designs being looked at.
Knowing Daniel Levy he has seen something in other grounds which would help maximise revenue, be it corporate boxes or additional advertising boards/screens etc.
The fact this is happening is actually a true sign that the development is nearing ‘kick off’ otherwise things would not be happening at all.
I heard that Populous have been brought in to work primarily on the internal design. Your fascination with Spurs and the stadium is like some old biddy twitching at her net curtains while the neighbours are having a party.
I think it would be more fun to not provide you with and answer… I can only imagine the sleepless nights you are having.
To be honest the only person that really knows is Daniel. But I wouldn’t imagine it be delivered much before 2020.
I am led to believe that the invitation to Populous is to actually redesign some aspects of the interior. The original plans will remain the same regarding the main frame of the stadium and surrounding areas
Club want a bigger capacity than originally planned. They want it bigger than the emirates and so I’ve heard the design will stay but the inside they have asked to have a second design to include the higher capacity. The good thing is that spurs own almost all the land and buildings around the ground. Basically an area in which you could build two stadiums as they have been buying up property for years now.
They haven’t been dropped, any fan worth their salt knows what’s going on with our club, again why you worry yourselves with a club you lot love to play off as irrelevant is beyond me not one thing picks my curiosity about the Emptycrates other than how we can ship you back to Woolwich . I think the lady doth protest too much. I tell you what, why don’t you actually come out your closet and say “I secretly love Spurs” and then you won’t have to ask about the stadium you’d genuinely be up to date with stadium plans as you’d actually follow th club rather than peer through the gaps in your fingers
The old plans have not been dropped. Populous have been asked to submit plans for the internal fit out of the stadium, not to re-draw plans from scratch. I do not see it delaying the project at all, they just want a second opinion on the internal stuff…
They haven’t dropped the old plans. They have employed new designers to look at the interior design of the Stadium. Please research before posting pointless ramblings. And why are you so interested in our Stadium. Like you said. Library MK11, souless like the club itself.
Arsenal need to really capitalise on as many commercial sponsors they can now and in future years. We should always be looking at buying 1-2 top draw players per year to revitalise and add to the squad. We need to keep paying the best players like Ozil the money they deserve $150-200k per week to attract the worlds best. Although I think Wenger is towards the end of he’s tenure I would keep him for 2 more years and then I would go hard for Klopp. If Arsenal can maintain and attract the best young and established stars from England and around the world and keep the money rolling in with sponsors champions league etc than we can always be competing with the best teams in the world and the spuds will always be in our shadows.
They won’t get a new ground. I really can’t see anything tangible coming to fruition. Why would it?…, we struggled to get the emirates built during an upturn in the economy and being a title winning club at the time.
The economy is still in the toilet, investment in football has been seen as the bottomless pit it is, they have less of a fan base, less of a history, less worldwide scope etc than we do and did and they have played CL football as many times as newcastle and everton have. And i don’t say that to troll either. When you consider all that, then their talk of a new ground just comes across as a little pie in the sky’ish. They would have started something by now if they could, they haven’t and they won’t.
Read your articule and found it very interesting as a Spurs supporter. The questions you were raising are the same questions Spurs supporters are talking about and don’t understand either. I think the football club should be more informative to their own supporters what’s going on.
Spurs fan here.
The club has been utterly useless at keeping Spurs fans informed about what is going on throughout this whole process. So it’s hardly surprising that a gooner wouldn’t have a clue!
Firstly, start date. We don’t have one yet. But rumours from decent sources have been growing over the past month or so which suggest that we are finally getting there, that work will start next year and that we will move into the partially completed stadium in 2016. The remaining third will be finished by 2017, once the current stadium is demolished.
As to the delay, it’s not nothing to do with stadium regulations not being met. It’s got everything to do with Levy and Lewis trying to secure the best possible naming rights deal rather than settling for a lesser deal. All other funding is believed to be in place.
Not sure where you get the idea that Spurs’ stadium design has to be redrawn in order to conform to regulations. That’s not the case. The Emirates has a bigger gap between pitch and stand for other reasons best known to Arsenal – not because the stands had to be that far from the pitch.
As to Populous getting board with Spurs, it’s not uncommon for new architects to be appointed to projects. Nor does it mean that the old design is necessarily shelved. At this stage, we don’t really know what the reason is but an anonymous source is quoted as saying that their appointment is in relation to internal fit out.
Hope that helps.
Oh……….and I have to finish by calling you gooner scum, don’t I? Would hate not to conform to stereotype!
OK, so if the change of the team to work on the stadium is just in relation to the interior, I don’t quite understand why the Fighting Cock, who so many people in the media seem to treat as someone with a hand on the pulse of supporters views, should say, “Bringing in Populous does not fill me with much hope – stadiums like Wembley, the Emirates and the Olympic Stadium are not known for having a buzzing atmosphere and are very corporate and soulless”
The atmosphere is surely developed by the fans facing the pitch, not by the bars, restaurants, corporate elements and so forth.
I just wish I could find those regs about how far from the pitch the fans need to be in new stadium developments. That would solve one point that worries me.
@JimB
I love your last paragraph, terrific stuff! Just how it should be, good natured and fun. Informative as well. You are welcome here any time.
Out of interest where will they play home games during the renovations?
Work is underway. The supermarket is being built and ground works for the stadium. Delays have included difficulties in obtaining the land, some parts ran to compulsory purchase, planning issues revolving around that plonker MP, heritage, the Olympic bid etc.
The biggest difficulty was the economic downturn. I think you sold the rights too cheaply, particularly given it included the shirts. Can see you needed and got the cash up front, but even so. Finance is bound to be trickier in this environment. With c. 25,000 current season ticket holders and a further 25,000 on a paid waiting list, confidence re capacity will naturally be high.
The board have often said that the build will be staged so as not to interfere with investment in the team, we have also had other capital projects such as the training centre taking both finance and man hours. I understood that the introduction of new designers was for the internal fit out, rather that a root and branch re-design. I may be wrong.
Thank you for your concern. Touching as it is, we are where we are without an increased capacity and we will be far better off whenever it arrives. DL will undoubtedly nail it.
I think the most important thing as a Tottenham fan is to have a stadium that it possible to create an atmosphere in and if the design is wrong there’s no way of turning back because of the amount of money involved. I don’t totally blame arsenal fans for lack of atmosphere as the the design had no consideration towards that aspect. If you do a comparison of 2 grounds with the same capacity built/rebuilt in recent memory Celtic Park and the Emirates couldn’t be more different. I assume the had to work within the same guidelines yet one ground creates a great atmosphere and the other doesn’t. But I don’t think that solely down to fans, put 60000 Celtic fans in the Emirates and they won’t make the noise they do at Celtic Park so design is important and can be done with atmosphere in mind. Tottenham must stick to this as it will help the team and from a business point of view create more revenue.
“Your fascination with Spurs and the stadium is like some old biddy twitching at her net curtains while the neighbours are having a party.”
“I am not sure why an Arsenal fan is so interested in a Tottenham stadium”
“And why are you so interested in our Stadium.”
Do you all really not know why? Admittedly now Arsenal are moving into the financial superpower bracket 😉 it’s not quite such an issue, but I’d rather not see a competitor for a CL spot strengthening in any way.
Well to all the spuds being a Gooner I cannot wait until you start building you little stadium. I find your club so laughable that you are so far behind Arsenal. We have already built and paid off the vast amount of debt on the Emirates before you have even decided on your building plans. We have gone a number of years selling our best players and not winning a trophy and have been criticised by the media and everyone inside football. However the one thing that has always kept us Arsenal fans going is that even with all of this we have always finished above the spuds. It was fun seeing all of you lot getting excited about your signings and then BANG Mezit Ozil £42.4m. Oh dear it looks like Arsenal have just moved back in to the big boys league. Imagine what the gap will be like once you start building your stadium and are under financial controls like we was? I actually am praying the Spurs finish second in the league this year because that way you can guarantee that we will have finished first. Up the gooners.
I am a shareholder and have no more idea than you as to what exactly is going on.
I am told there is a problem with the Wembley-type walk-way to White Hart Lane station and that Populous have been asked to revise the internals of the stadium because Tottenham wish to take the capacity up to 61,000, ’61 being a significant number for the club.
I have never heard or been told of regulations ascertaining to the distance of the crowd from the pitch, and was told by one architect who had supposedly worked on stadia design that the design was the ”first of the new generation of stadia”.
Tottenum’s stadium will go ahead.
No doubt about.
“Sports led re-development” Hmmm. Interesting turn of phrase used on the billboards.
“New homes (for who?), New shops(a real shortage there!)…” But no mention of the stadium.
Whether the stadium will be built before or after a large proportion of homes and business’ in the surrounding area are demolished by the Friends of Levy Inc. remains to be seen. Corporate welfare, we expect nothing less from Boris. Progress eh?
My guess is that it will be built after! The Boris’ of this world are banal in their predictability.
Possibly my perspective is distorted by these ruby & quartz goggles but if things continue to follow this pattern then this stadium will be the centerpiece of a wider (off-shore led?) development that will represent a utopia as envisioned by Ken Bates.
Quite happen to have seen Islington reject the tower in N5. At least that project was proposed after the football club was settled. Observable priorities in these kind of large projects can be very revealing.
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The pitch at the new Arsenal stadium can be lowered (future proof expansion plans!). One additional reason for the lay out.
<quite happy to have seen
If ‘J’ wishes to Google Earth the Northumberland Project site he will see what is going on, I don’t think that all that work in clearing and preparing the site has been done for fun, the council would not countenance a complete change of use for the site at this stage, especially as they have granted compulsory purchase orders for the last obstacles to the clearance.
I have also been told that the funding for the stadium build is in place, so the stadium will be built but as has been asked of the board, WHEN.
For you Spurs fans acuseing us of being like ‘Some Old biddy twitching at her curtains’. You do realise you are snooping around an ARSENAL web site don’t you ??
Just thought I’d point out the irony of that.
Much as I’d like to see the capacity increased (and not by a piffling few thousand just so that the classier amongst our number can crow that we get 4 more people through the door each week than you lot do, ergo we are a ‘bigger club’) as I understand it, the capacity limit has been set by the ‘authorities’ and reflects what the surrounding area/transport links etc. can stand on match day, rather than the size of the stadium and its internal configuration. Having said that, the whole process has been subject to so much change and a notable lack of up-to-date information, that it’s nigh-on impossible to say anything with any degree of confidence. Good luck in your search, and keep us informed, if you learn anything.
Tony,
I would be interested to read your estimate of the actual lowest attendance at the Emirates when you have been present.
I know the Club publishes the number of seats sold.
I understood that the Emirates was designed as a 75,000 seater Stadium but due to reasons relateing to logistics, public transport, safety etc. ect. we could only obtain the required certification for 60,000 seats. This is why the seats are so large. They can be much narrower to squeeze in a lot more. This may also account for the pitch side ‘gap’ but I had not heard about that.
I understood we was given the option of uni-lateraly financing improvements to the local public transport facilities in order to conform to the requirements of a 75K Stadium, but the cost was at the time, extremely prohibative.
The fact Arsenal went ahead with a design that allows for this increase in capacity suggests that at some stage in the future they intend to do it.
I am not privy to any official knowledge at all, this is all just what I’ve ‘read’ over the years.
A few points: it is the interior that is being looked at not tue whole stadium. Id be very supprized if the goons didnt do the same as its not a good odea to only consider 1 option.
As far as financing the stadium Spurs are currently turning over more without CL footbal than the goons were with it in 2001 and the stadium cost is lilely to be less as we already own the land required. Also financing will most likley be cusioned by a certain joe lewis if required so no problems there.
Delays caused by the olympic stadium fiasco were a nucence but what MD would turn away the oppertunity of a half price stadium? It was right to follow up on it despite the delay it caused.
But as far as the interior goes. Spurs identyfied the
A few points: it is the interior that is being looked at not tue whole stadium. Id be very supprized if the goons didnt do the same as its not a good odea to only consider 1 option. To use the builders of the emerytes is a good idea as they will have madeistakes or noted possible areas for improvment and will have learned from it.
As far as financing the stadium Spurs are currently turning over more without CL footbal than the goons were with it in 2001 and the stadium cost is lilely to be less as we already own the land required. Also financing will most likley be cusioned by a certain joe lewis if required so no problems there. Add to that the new influx of cheap labour due in from eastern europe i should think our costs are dropping not rising.
Delays caused by the olympic stadium fiasco were a nucence but what MD would turn away the oppertunity of a half price stadium? It was right to follow up on it despite the delay it caused.
But as far as the interior goes. Spurs identyfied the large stadium atmosphere problem from the start, its more to do with the rake angle of the seating than the starting point keeping those at the back as near to the pitch as possible and all plans have been approved in this regard.
Matt,
Tottenham have purchased land next to the current stadium. They will build three new sides on the new land and this will allow them to move in. They will then demolish the current stadium and build the 4th stand once this has been done. Effectively 3 new stands and the turning around of the 4th (hope that makes sense).
As an Arsenal fan I do think that the new ground does look pretty good however have been wondering why the project has seemingly taken so long to get underway.
Also (and this is not a dig) if they have recruited Populous to assist in increasing the capacity from 56,000 to 61,000 then one would think this is a positive step and one that they would want to advise their supporters of?
This is a huge project and arguably the biggest in the clubs history, the fact that they are not making fans aware of what is going on surprises me.
I should of also said. The last time i attended WHL a huge amount of the ground work had already been done and further works were ongoing, the last bits of property needed jave only just been aquired, the supermarket is up and the current stadium has been stripped of much of its cladding etc. WORK HAS BEGUN.
@Joner193
I am an Arsenal fan who is very interested in what is happening in N17 and all matters to do with our neighbour. Why? Because you are our neighbour.
When I talk with a spuds fan I want to be able to talk knowledgeably about spuds.
I may not like your club but I’ve nothing personally against any of its supporters therefore I am not into name bashing or abusing.
If I think spuds are better than us in some way I am prepared to admit it to a spuds supporter.
Just to remind you Glen Hoddle was the most skillful payer of his generation and he played for you not us. I was envious of you.
Arsene persuaded Glen to play for him at Monaco. I was happy!
Arsene has admitted he made a mistake at not signing Bale.
So we don’t always get it right.
We at Arsenal are big enough to admit our mistakes!
With regards to the gap between the nearest player and supporter, I believe it is 7 mtrs. I heard Arsene say this himself some time ago. At the time I thought how strange that he would know that however he was very active in the design of The Ems.
The plans for the new WHL stadium do look good, however the imagery being used seems to show the fans as close to the pitch as they are now. If they have to include a larger perimeter then that would most likely reduce capacity as oppose to increase.
Having often thought about the distance from the pitch, my logic dictates it’s because of the “no posts” design. It appears to be a case of physics. If closer to the pitch the you could argue further rows could be added to the back but the roof would block the view of those seats. It would be wasted space. Logic dictates that space is better off at the front where it can serve a purpose or be practical. I know the design of the stadium is to maximise the health of the pitch and to have no posts. This is my guess why we are so far from the pitch at the Emirates.
Adam, I’ve put your piece up, but really, what’s the point of this. We are having a sensible debate and you take it back to the sort of stuff that yes, many of us join in with in the tribal atmosphere of the stadium, but isn’t the way that we actually get any sort of reasoned discussion going away from the matches.
Nigel – it is not concern as much as interest. My view (and perhaps it is only a tiny minority who share this approach) is that football as a whole is interesting, and I like to know what’s going on. I sat in front of a Tottenham fan at the non-league match I went to last week as part of Non-league Day, and we had a really good discussion about the issue – but neither of us could unravel exactly what was happening. Hence the piece.
we sell out 36k every game and have done for years..there is clearly demand. i cant be 100% if that equates to an additional 20k per game but clearly its gonna be a decent amount. fans want to see teams that win trophies e.g Spurs won the league cup 5 yrs ago. I understand the goons havent won anything whatsoever for 8 years.
I happened to watch the video, during the approval stage of the ems…..The narration was along the lines of ” The new stadium will be the best stadium in Europe, probably the world to watch football in. It is built to comply with all the regulations local and international…” Cant find the link though.
I wonder how Spurs are going to manage the stadium build. As per their plan. Half stadium at a time?????
@ Tony Attwood.
It’s a phased project, with work starting this month on the NPD, I cannot find who has won the contracts from McLaren on the Mechanical and electrical sides as this would give you an idea of the time scale’s involved.
When I get time I will look at the tendering process (or you can), as to what companies have bid for the contracts and time frames.
This would be the logical way of finding the building projects time scale.
http://www.haringey.gov.uk/index/housing_and_planning/planning-mainpage/strategicphysicalregeneration/ndp.htm
Whoa? Is that so? I have suggest a name for your new stadium that you all Spuds wont reject : THE GARETH BALE STADIUM. I hope Daniel Levy who love Bale more than Spuds don’t use Bale’s money to fund the constraction. It wont be enough anyway. London is white! What a joke.
This is what also makes untold so great is that its not all about how good we are how and shit xxx is. Well done Tony, I often thought myself what is happening with their stadium, its interesting to know. I have a good spurs mate and we always have a laugh after our games (a good time after sometimes) and I do want to know about them as they are our neighbours!
My spudmate knows lots of arsenal shit and I like to know spurs shit so I can debate, laugh and argue!
I enjoy football much more now that spurs are good again, especially these last hard years with the AAA etc, spurs take attention away from our moaners (when we beat them of course).
And as far as derbies go, the NLD is by far the best one now.
Good luck all and COYG!!!!
Dixta: nice jab there but Arsenal has won 13 titles and 10 FA Cups in last 126 years, spurs none!
What are you saying?
*one
@ Finsbury
With regards to the lowering of the Pitch at The Ems to increase capacity is that correct? Have not heard that before. Guess it makes sense and it would be a less expensive way of increasing capacity as the roof remains unaffected.
Some very valid questions here and a few informative answers from some Spurs fans. But cannot understand the Spurs fans that always seem resent us debating or even mentioning issues concerning them so much…afterall, if the Spurs CEO can try, and fail miserable to intefere with our summer transfers, surely us, as mere fans can sometimes delve into issues affecting our neighbours?
elkieno,
Only the last 8 years count. Everything before then doesn’t matter and it’s not just the Spuds but many of our own fans too.
It’s interesting that Dixta is bragging about a league cup won 5 years ago. What a dig!
Interesting
As for the Emirates, it entirely depends on the match and who is in the crowd. The Spurs match created an unbelievable atmosphere, it was deafeningly loud.
Having said that it has felt dead on occasion, and the one time I sat in the upper tier I was genuinely bored (ok ,it was olympiakos), I think if there wasn’t such a price premium to sit up there people would liven up a little.
I remember the debate when we were in the design phase of the Emirates and a lot of talk was how to design the stadium so that the pitch would remain amongst the best in the world. There was a lot of talk about air flow and drainage, etc.
Good article and the Tottenham fans would love to see some urgency on the matter. Levy is obviously keen to push things forward and I see him as influential at our club as David Dein was to Arsenal. The 56,000 capacity should be raised to 70,000,as season ticket waiting list is massive. The problem with the atmosphere at the Emirates, now that is a good question. WHERE IS THE PASSION?? Spurs supporters are louder even on friendly matches. But unlike Chelsea, Arsenal don’t have to advertise on talksport to sell tickets. Now they really are a souless club.
Great article (and thats coming from a Spurs Supporter).
We need more sensible and grown up discussions like this.
My 2 pence worth is that with a stadium rebuilt this massive. It would be negligent for DL NOT to get a second opinion. There is no room for mistakes, the build must not only be financially accurate, but it MUST be conducive for fantastic atmosphere.
I’m more concerned with seat design and the % of seats that will be allocated to those on “Platium Standard.” IMHO all seating should be the same and as compact as possible.
My fav big ground is this bad boy
http://www.stadionseite.de/westfalenstadion.htm
A Spurs supporter mentioned ’61 being a special number for them , while another got his math wrong vis a vis the number of trophies won.
Well Arsenal ‘s lucky numbers are of course ’71 , ’98 & ’02 !
Also ’70 ,’79 ,’88 ,’89 , ’91 ,’93 ‘ ’94 ,’03 . ’05 .
Not to mention the invincible ‘ 04 and 49 -unbeaten which also feature very prominently !
Our cups runneth over !
http://www.whileiwasdrunk.org/love-waitress-beer-drunk-2736.html
Only the last 8 years count? Only the last 17 years count
Obviously neither are correct we have been in exsistence for 127 years long before Wenger,Gazidis and Kroenke and fans need to remember this.
Matt,
Did you figure that out by yourself? You must be a mathematical genius! Seriously, how many people could subtract 1886 from 2013?
Best info on the Spurs new stadium I have seen for ages.
Think it is a totally new stadium, the current WHL will be totally demolished so far as I know.
The transition could be an issue. The current plan does not seem practical, assuming Spurs will have all the underground car parking to dig out, like Arsenal have.
Renting another stadium for 2/3 years could be the problem.
@Amos Hermens,
Indeed that is a fantastic stadium. I have been there 2 years ago when Arsenal played there in the CL and look forward to going again and admire the atmosphere when we play them again in the CL this season.
A really amazing stadium with an amazing atmosphere. And with nice friendly fans by the way who made us feel very welcome at the time.
Er, ‘scuse me,
but what happened about the snooping Spurs were doing? Didn’t they tap K. Brady’s phone (an’ all that)?
I do think a stadium will be built. The reason I think that is because there seems to be backing from our Boris. our Boris is encouraging a plan to knock down a lovely council estate near Earls Court, and the “assembly” are also trying to knowck down Shepherd’s Bush market and shops on Goldhawk Road – to replace them with high rise residential buildings. Both schemes have faced multiple complaints and there have been court actions re their legitimacy.
In other words, if Boris and his chums want it – it’ll likely happen. Everyone else can “do one” (Is that the modern parlance)?
Anyone gone to court for trying to destabilise the West Ham/Orient bid?
OOh, my comment got through. I’ve failed to get comments posted several times recently. My comments haven’t contained links, and further research I’ve done suggests WordPress may think I’m a spammer (or summat).
I don’t ‘register’ at/with WordPress. Does anyone have ideas as to how I can alter the delivery of my ‘oh so important’ posts, please?
I really find it strange how all these spud assholes come on an arsenal website the nanosecond after Tony mentions whats happening with their pipe dream stadium. You morons should put down the crack pipe and listen, In reality if you cretins were getting a new hovel to play in why is your management not keeping their c**ks**ker supporters informed. your fearless leaders went chasing after the Olympic stadium they way a Pompey whore does a sailor. Talk is cheap, just build the shitehole and us gooners will shut up. we did it, now let see you motherf**kers do it. Deep down inside you idiots know its not gonna happen. HA HA HA. Hey assholes, Keep smoking the good shit because that is all you have to look forward to.
@bill from manhatton. Did writing all that cut into your wanking time?? As for the pipe dream stadium. Your the dreamer pal. Now get back to spraying the kleenex you tosser.
WOOLWICH ARSEole F.c
Ian @ 1:31 pm
The roof is also future proof! They can lop it off and add another tier if those infrastructure improvements ever happen.
The possibility of increasing capacity up (& down) towards the 80,000 mark was built into the project so to speak.
The best bit about the new arsenal stadium is of course the pitch.
Nice to see a stadium for football where people have paid attention to that kind of thing. The football pitch. I mention no names *coughs* erm..oh yeah…I might have been thinking of the albatross of Wembley there. Maybe. They say a home can tell you a lot about those who live there. No further comment!
The stadium will be open some time in 2016 but it will not be completed as the existing stadium will still be in place on the new stadium site. White hart lane will then be demolished allowing the new stadium to be completed a year later.
@bill . You obviously are not from north London. If you was you would surely see the new site has been cleared and the Northumberland project is already underway. If you are from north London then your a gobshite plank. Those big white billboards around white hart lane in closing the new stadium site with pictures of the new stadium on ???? Did anything switch on??? Nob
Stu, Did i strike a nerve. I just told the truth. As my mother used to tell me, THE TRUTH SHOULDN’T HURT. Whats the matter, Lil’ Stu can’t handle the truth. BOO HOO BOO HOO. Here is some more truths you fucking asshole, Your lot hasn’t won the league in over fifty years. I don’t go on spud websites to proclaim that fact. I have never gone on a spud site in my life. Never have, Never will. What the f**k are you doing on Untold. If my team last won the league in black and white, I would have the commonsense to shut up and maintain a low profile. Then again, You spud motherf**kers aren’t the sharpest tools in the shed. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
To Bill and Stu please get a room and continue your love in elsewhere. For the most part this has been an interesting response to an inquiry piece from Tony and Ian. I’m an Arsenal fan but I have Tottenham mates – most London born AFC fans do – so for once can you reign your necks in and stop behaving like two year olds
@Stu
Best not to insult the education of others when you, on the same comments section, fail to demonstrate that you understand the difference between ‘your’ and ‘you’re’.
There’s this new thing called a book – try reading one sometime.
@Lynch
You’ve certainly one-upped Stu. He managed to take off the apostrophe and the ‘e’ from ‘you’re’. You’ve taken the ‘r’ as well.
“You obviously not from NL” – most people would have to try to sound this uneducated. Impressive that you manage it so easily.
@Lynch, The last time i checked, Mahattan was in New York City. As i stated before, Just build the fucking shitehole, Being from the states, I don’t know about billboards and supermarkets in your impoverished area in North London. The last time i looked, Football wasn’t played in a supermarket. I don’t give a rat’s ass about your shitty little team or it’s stadium project. I support Arsenal and visit this site because of its pro Arsenal stance. I never had any inclination to visit any spur sites. Just wonder why you guys are always on Untold. Sounds like penis envy. Not my fault if you spuds can’t come to grips with your shortcomings. HA HA HA HA HA.
Just wondering does the money used for buying up land around the spurs ground not count in the cost of the stadium?
When Arsenal first put forward the idea of a 60,000 stadium the police and local authorities were concerned about the movement of the crowd to and from the stadium. Arsenal had to pay for up grades to all train stations and and bus routes around the local area. Looking at the Tottenham area how are they on a busy Saturday afternoon going to move between 56,000 & 61,000 people?
The proposed stadium does look good, I’ll give them that.
@Tony:
Looking through the planning decision notice, dated 20/09/2011,
http://www.planningservices.haringey.gov.uk/portal/servlets/AttachmentShowServlet?ImageName=403051
I see the usual conditions:
2. The part of the development wher
e full details are approved by this
planning application, namely the
‘Northern Development’, ‘the Stadiu
m’ and ‘the Southern Development’ (see plan A600 Rev 00), shall begin
as follows:
a. The Northern Development shall commence within three years of the date of this planning
permission;
b. The Stadium shall commence within five years of
the date of this planning permission; and
c. The Southern Development (excluding those elements that are approved in outline only (namely the
residential block and the hotel block) shall comme
nce within seven years of the date of this
planning permission.
(bold and italics mine)
A couple of other points:
the existing stadium is NOT on White Hart Lane, so why does everyone say that it is?
the address for the new stadium, apparently, will be Bill Nicholson Way – what do Spuds make of that?
@sam. You’re a cunt. BETTER.
Just spoke to Daniel levy. He told me the build is on hold. Until we qualify. For champs league
2113 then ?
Sorry that should have been 3113
Yeah the name White Hart Lane pretty sure comes from a road that used to exist before Tottenham was built up (and it was covered in fields and deer) I think it was White Hart grounds. Then everyone just started to refer to the ground as White Hart Lane. According to our website this was as early as 1900s. Name has stuck ever since.
@ WalterBroeckx
Mate you are blessed man to have actually gone to that stadium. Gives me goose bumps watching it on the TV.
Nice guys the Borussia team actually. I saw them when they arrived at Stansted Airport for the CL Final. Spent lots of time taking photos with their awaiting fans. Top blokes.
If you ever get to go back it will be interesting to see the reception they give to your german contingent! Podolski was ex-BM so he should receive some stick.
@ BILL – why are Spurs fans here? Well………have you never heard of News Aggregators?
If not, go google them. Then you’ll (hopefully) understand why Spurs fans are posting here.
Tony, it is nice to see the “envelope being pushed forward”!
I do have the Tottenham Hotspur Limited accounts for the last 10 years or so.
The Financial Report for 30th June 2012 has the following comment:
“The Directors have produced detailed cash flow projections and have performed sensitivity analysis on these and are confident that the NDP will proceed. The NDP will be closely monitored and any amounts capitalised, which would not be recoverable in the event that the NDP does not proceed such as a significant proportion of professional fees capitalised that are specific to the proposed stadium site and properties whose market value is below cost, would need to be written-off at that time.”
Sitting on the fence?
Can Spurs REALLY afford a new stadium?
Last year they lost money. They spent all the money they received for Bale (and then some).
I think there stadium is a pipe dream and will not happen unless they secure regular CL football.
They have trued everything to compete withe arsenal and have continued to fail.
I suspect another loss on their accounts this year. What bank would lend to them?
Lets say they do get a new stadium – add a decade of financial weakness to the 5 years or so before the stadium even arrives. It will be 15 years before they can start challenging.
Truth is Arsenal moved quickly and decisively on the new stadium and Spurs did not. The market changed and it will take a huge gamble by any club wishing to build a new home. one that could sink them permanently… now there is a happy thought.
@ JimB – Fair call mate! And I’d like to combine that call with what I think is the obvious fact that @ Tony Attwood has started what IMHO is the most intelligent article on the WHL Stadium build/non-build. Much more informative than anything I’ve read from the main papers.
One thing I would like to see is that as a general rule, Spurs supporters should only be allowed to post +ve discussion comments. Arsenal fans – its your board so my opinion u can post whatever u like. Just my 2 pence worth.
Tony,
I’m an Architect who has worked on sports stadiums and my take on this is that the Emirates
seating layout has been dictated by UEFA and FIFA standards on the advertising hoardings around the pitch. Remember when we had European games in Highbury and UEFA closed off the rows of seats behind the hoardings, in case fans put scarfs or banners on top of their competition sponsors?
If I was being cruel I’d guess that the supaspudstad wasn’t designed for Champions League haha, but that would be unlikely. The likely explanation is that the designers (or new designers as case may be) are doing a more detailed interior design. That have all that extra room when the tottenham trophy biscuit tin is. The spuds are going for a single tier kop end, a la Dortmund. That will loose thousands of upper tier seats, unless the UK authorities agree to safe standing zones (highly unlikely).
Any significant design changes and its back into the planning process for them.
BTW the same architects both clubs used seem to have one basic stadium design, we used the same type of stadium template in Dublin twice over. Personally I don’t like the oversized club level at the Ems or Wembley, the fuckers at Wembley at that tier don’t even bother comming back out for the second half of games, a right prawn sandwich level. Selling multi-year seats at this level to rich idiots is one way of forward funding the project. It makes sense in London as spuds are likely to be playing against the big 6 for a while more. Those are the games people want to bring their ‘important clients’ to. Shiver down spine.
I have been to the Ems club level once, at least the booze was free! Maybe an attempt to get the atmosphere more lively?
Jay @9:01pm
Exactly!
I don’t get how they can afford the design fees, let alone the building.
They spent every penny of the money from Bale on new players, who look laughably average. Bale for them was a once in a lifetime chance to cash in. They could have got started on the stadium.
They are trying to do something Dein wanted Arsenal to do (hence why he was sacked) i.e. have a competitive team and get a stadium on the cheap.
They are however buying land and getting building costs at recession rates, something that AFC had to pay top of the economic bubble prices for. And I’m guessing land is a lot cheaper in N17.
Amos@9:01 Incisive thinking. You are 100 percent correct. This is a arsenal website. I hate going on this website and read all the spurs comments telling us to fuck off. You conduct yourself like a gentleman. Glad to see not all Tottenham supporters are rude and surly.
A Spurs fan I know – apparently with connections – told me that Lewis will be funding a lot of the stadium build himself. Who knows?
On this subject, any news on the Liverpool stadium? Seems a bit of a climate of fear for new stadiums at the moment?
Two points i would like to make. I have a good friend who is a Tottenham supporter for over fifty years. He was born in the area near White Hart Lane. he recently went to London on a visit during the off-season. He went to WHL to buy some Tottenham gear. He was shocked to see how impoverished and run-down the neighborhood had become. What’s the use of a new stadium if it’s in a slum. Also where is the money gonna come from to erect said stadium. Banks are not loaning money out like the good old days. Tottenham lost money last year. We knew there were gonna be lean years while our stadium was being built. Its a testimony to Wenger for keeping us in the Champions League during the lean times. He doesn’t get enough credit for that. All you hear from the media is Arsenal haven’t won anything for 8 years. Food for thought, How are spurs gonna remain competitive and finance a new stadium. You guys can’t even make fourth place with no financial restraints. Another point is why on the official spurs website there are no updates about the new stadium. VERY INTERESTING
I guess it’s understandable that gooners aren’t going to believe that this stadium will be built – and soon – until they can see it with their own eyes.
Suffice to say that, despite the absence of official statements on the matter, there has been a steady trickle of leaks from trustworthy sources as to the progress of the project.
Most of the funding is in place. All that appears to be holding things up now is the standard legal process following an appeal against a CPO served on a small business behind the current Paxton Road stand.
Many of you have expressed doubts about Spurs’ ability to cope with the cost burden. Truth is, it will be less of an issue for Spurs than it was for Arsenal.
1. Borrowing is now far cheaper. More difficult to secure too, admittedly……….but not if you’re backed by Joe Lewis.
2. Spurs won’t massively undervalue their worth to naming rights sponsors, as Arsenal did with Emirates.
3. Spurs’ income now, outside of the Champions League, is already greater than Arsenal’s was, in the Champions League, when they built the Emirates.
4. Because of the recession, building costs haven’t risen much, in real terms, since the Emirates was built. Spurs’ new stadium will therefore cost a similar amount to the Emirates.
5. Spurs already own 99% of the property required and don’t have to buy a council waste facility and replace it with a new facility elsewhere.
JimB,
That is probably the best post on the subject, on any forum, Gunner’s or Spurs’.
Your analysis is hard to fault – if the mysterious man from the Caymans is guaranteeing the loans then the rates should be at least as low, if not lower than for the Emirates bonds.
Additionally, if any new sponsorship deals are not front loaded, that will benefit Spurs enormously.
I don’t think you can compare commercial income between 2013 and 2001, for instance the vast majority will be the TV deals, which have massively outstripped inflation.
Also, the pricing for major contractors hasn’t dropped between then and now, it may have remained fairly stable but I would think that the cost of a 56,000 seater now would be within 25% of the cost of a 60,000 seater ten years ago. That still represents good value as hopefully Spurs will be aiming for a 50% increase in matchday revenue.
JimB,
Some valid points however I disagree on 2 & 3.
Point 2 : Arsenal didn’t massively undervalue the naming rights, they were competitive at the time for a front loaded deal.
Point 3 : This is irrelevant as there are so many other factors to consider with this such as the price of everything has gone up and player salaries have sky rocketed 300% – in many cases, combined player salaries are now higher than entire annual revenues back then. This is illustrated by the fact that revenues are higher now for teams NOT IN champions league compared to teams IN champions league 10 years ago yet they are still unable to turn a profit.
check this out troops…
McLaren and FCC plan £400m Spurs stadium bid
http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2013/09/18/mclaren-and-fcc-plan-400m-spurs-stadium-bid/
Hmmm…as long as the due diligence is thorough and independent, I’m not too worried McLaren/FCC option is on the table.