By Walter Broeckx and Tony Attwood
A group of fans have been calling for Dein to be reinstalled at Arsenal again. Now I don’t know much about the inner kitchen at Arsenal so I have to rely on what I read and hear.
I think it is fair to say that Dein has done a lot of good things for Arsenal. I will not take anything away from him. But he had a different take on how Arsenal should move on. He wanted Arsenal to move to Wembley and he also wanted us to embrace Usmanov and take his money. So he wanted us to be some kind of Chelsea or City.
I can imagine that part of the Arsenal fans that want to see big names coming to Arsenal and even bigger debts surrounding our club; and they want Mr Dein.
Maybe there have been other reasons that we don’t know about but I think this is what came out in the open when Dein got kicked out by the rest of the board. Since then Dein has become a mythical figure of some part of the U10 fans we have. They make it sound as if in the Dein days we bought big names all the time. But when I think back of the signings we made in those days they also had a lot of things in common with these days: mostly young and unknown players. Players with no big names.
Who was Thierry Henry when he came to us? Who was Patrick Vieira when he came to us? Even Dennis Bergkamp was no longer a big name, having had a very poor time in Milan. During his time there the media stopped their weekly “Donkey of the week” column about the worst player in Italy that weekend and called it, “Bergkamp of the week”. Platt was his other signing was Dein’s other signing and he was in the last three years of his playing career after four years covering Bari, Juve and Sampdoria.
I think most of the U10 had never heard of some of those players and maybe were complaining about Dein, as they now complain about Wenger, for buying them.
But now they make it look as if we only signed world class players that were already big stars. But the myth that Dein brought in big names is a myth that is very much alive amongst that part of the fans. Maybe the shout to bring him back comes because he was at Arsenal when we bought Wiltord from Bordeaux who had been French League champions, but I am not sure they really follow French football that closely, or even a player who scored in the Euro 2000 final. Yes Wiltord was our record signing when he came in 2000, (a fee only surpassed by that for Arshavin), but was he really a world star?
As usually happens when people throw other people out of the board there is a lot of hostility. This is a normal human reaction. And certainly when the disagreement is about which direction the club should be heading the next decades (ie is it the self sustaining model the majority of the board wants or the billionaire model a la City and Chelsea that Mr Dein wanted). Wenger who was brought in by Dein (as the story goes) had a good relationship with Dein who helped him with the transfer dealings in those days. And it was said that they were personal friends. But Wenger agreed with the rest of the board on the self sustaining model so he stood in the other camp and maybe this also could have had an influence on their friendship.
But when I now look back over the years I do wonder if it is any coincidence that most of the players that are leaving us are players that have Darren Dein is their agent. Darren Dein is the son of David Dein. And he was the agent of Thierry Henry when he left us. If my memory serves me right he also was the agent of Hleb. Anyone knows if he was the agent of Flamini?
But now it seems that Dein is the agent of Clichy who just left us. He is the agent of Fabregas and since then you hear nothing but Cesc will leave us in the media. And he is the agent of Nasri and you hear the same stories.
So I wonder if this is some kind of revenge against Arsenal? Here’s a fanciful view: Father Dein doesn’t want us to be successful. Because if we were successful in the way we are doing it now it would prove the board right and him wrong. So is he in some way, through his son Darren, trying to make sure that we don’t get success?
Is it a coincidence that all the players who leave/presumably want to leave/don’t want to sign a new contract are players who have Dein as their agent? An agent is very powerful these days and has a big influence on a player. So when an agent tells his player that his current club (Arsenal) will never be successful this might have an impact on the player. (Of course this is all supposition, but so is the view that we don’t sign or re-sign players because of Wenger’s stubbornness. The mere fact that an idea is repeated a lot does not make it true).
We have seen on many occasions that agents start rumours to get a transfer from their player. So again I wonder do many of the Cesc rumours come from Dein the Younger? In fact Dein is the only winner no matter what happens. If he can sell Cesc his bank account will benefit. And Arsenal will be weaker and less successful. And if Cesc isn’t sold and Arsenal stand firm, thanks to the rumour it will undermine the position of Cesc and the fans could turn against him. This will have a negative influence on the player and his performances and so the chance of Arsenal not being successful grows bigger.
So is this the revenge of the Dein family on the current board? Again I have to say there is no proof, but for the moment it looks like every time we hear the name Dein it is bad news for Arsenal. So what is going on?
Or is this the revenge of a son who feels his dad has been badly treated? I don’t know if David Dein is still an Arsenal supporter and still wants the best for Arsenal. But I do know that Darren Dein is someone who is working in football, and the apparent result of his actions are that Arsenal’s players ask for transfers.
Of course there are always other explanations: one gentleman wrote on the Arsenal History site this week that all the players who leave do so because they want to win things – and among his list was the fact that Campbell and Kanu went to Portsmouth to win trophies – which they did. Of course one can believe in this sort of pre-cognition, and this is a possible view, but it seems a little fanciful to me. All we can say is that there is a theory that Campbell and Kanu “knew” that by leaving Arsenal to go to Portsmouth they would win something. There is another theory that Dein the Younger is acting against the club’s best interests. There is another that he is working in favour of the club, but that he is getting it all wrong, and the the result is that he is harming the club when all along he is trying to help.
The fact is that we don’t know – all we can see are a few facts: the boardroom bust-up which threw out Dein the Elder, the fact that Dein the Younger is agent to a number of players who want to leave…
David Dein did a lot of good in his days for Arsenal, although it was not always immediately clear just how much good he did (as with Bergkamp’s transfer). We can only hope that his son, as an agent, has a feeling for Arsenal, as he obviously must have for the clients he serves.
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On the history site: all the Arsenal players who are now coaches or managers
An interesting read.
Anyone would think that Dein Jnr would profit in monitary terms by unsettling and moving his players? Amazing coincidence he is the agent of all of them?
What a tangled web we weave when we first practise to ……
Obviously Dein Jr will benefit in his pocket no matter whether the players sign somewhere else or sign a new contract at Arsenal. And while a player leaving might weaken Arsenal, it is a far stretch to say that the same player staying at Arsenal will feel unsettled and disliked by the fans, weakening Arsenal that way. It is not likely that the harmony at Arsenal will be disrupted in such a way as to make Dein (Sr or Jr) happy. Nevertheless, interesting to find out that they all have Dein Jr as their agent.
And after starting this article I found out that Dein Jr is also the agent of Robin Van Persie. And guess what… this week also in the media reports came along that RVP also would want to leave?
And then I ask myself who is starting all these rumours? Another strange coincidence? Or is it Dein himself who phones to the papers and starts the rumours?
All a bit strange I think.
I’ve had similar thoughts about the Dein camp – I can easily imagine Dein the elder storming out with the contents of his desk in a box shouting:
“You’ll never win anything without me… you’ll see!”
And then doing everything within his power to make that happen. I’m surprised this article makes no mention of David Dein’s continuting involvement with the FA (and the failed world cup bid) with regards to the access and influence he had, through that, to the PGMOL?
An interesting article but far too much supposition for me to stomach.
The role of Darren Dein in Arsenal’s leaving top players is a little bit suspicious in my opinion as well.
But what would we make of the photo of Wenger and Dein (together on some sort of yacht) that The Sun published?
A small error there Walter. Darren Dein is not the agent of Samir Nasri. Also, he and Wenger supposedly enjoy a very good relationship and have even gone on holiday together.
I am generally a big fan of your work but I must say this whole article takes conspiracy theories to another level! 😛
whoa!!
Twoleftfeet, I thought I read in the media (I know not really reliable) that Dein was also doing the Nasri talks?
@walter:You took the words out of my mouth in your RVP comment.It arouses suspicion that every player whose agent is darren dein is rumoured to leave.
But AW was holidaying with david in mediterranean so i think they are still good friends.
None the less this arouses suspicion about the intentions of the dein family.Too bad the under 10’s cant see this
@walter: I think nasri’s father is his agent.
I’m sorry Tony, but you could also defend the way around.
You don’t know what actually happened.
What tells you it’s not Wenger and Kroenke pushing those players out because they have Dein’s son for agent and need cash to repay the debt quicker?
At the end, you’ll only know the truth when the debt is repaid and value of shares is interesting enough for them to sale.
With Usmanov’s backup, how can you conclude Dein would have indebted us? While Usmanov would have cleared that debt? We don’t have to be Chelsea or Man City. We could be Arsenal with Winner’s finances. Doesn’t mean we have to buy everyone, but why refuse Dein’s obvious contacts in Football world? Wenger and the board act like Arsenal is THEIR toy only and refuse help when it is offered.
Whoever is the agent is irrelevant. If you realise your best friend found the greatest agent on earth, wouldn’t you ask if he could work for you?
Now why do we have to keep believing Wenger and the current board? Because they know what they do? How about a bit more intelligence and accept help that is offered for once? Rather than just dissing it for fear of losing your firm grip on our club?
Is Dein Jr. a football agent? Yes.
Is a football agent’s main responsibility to the player he represents or the club his player plays for? Player.
Could our top players double/triple their weekly wages at other clubs? For Sure.
Is football a Job? Yes.
Would the majority of people in the world leave their current employment, if they were offered a MUCH better package elsewhere? Yes.
Is Dein Jr. trying to destabalize Arsenal for any reason? … I highly doubt it, seems to me he’s just good at his job..all his top players are in constant demand with better and better contract offers.
Imo.
@walter:Sorry his agent is not his father but someone by the name Alain Migliaccio.Like you said i read in the media(not to reliable) that his father was his agent but now it seems it is alain migliaccio
Just a few differences of opinion here,firstly Dein brought in Kreonke originally before selling his shares to Usmanov,and look who owns the majority of the club now. He only wanted a temporary move to Wembley,he wanted the money invested in the squad before we went ahead and biult Ashburton Grove. Arshavin only cost us 6 million as his old clubs contract was due to end the following November(Wiltord still remains our record signing). Revenge against Arsenal??? Blah blah Blah
@Amr – business is all about building relationships of trust. As an agent this trust would be between the club and the player – certain clubs deal with certain agents because they trust them not to unsettle their players. In this way the Agent is looking after his interests by looking after everyone’s interests.
Make no mistake – it is the agents interests that come first – you are correct, this is a business… but to sour a business relationship with a fairly top club, in which you and your family has been involved in for some years, really seems a little suss and would indicate a total breakdown of trust between the agent and the club.
The reasons for that we can only speculate upon.
Just want to say that this is by far the best Arsenal blog on the web. It’s refreshing to see writers that take a step back and present a concise and overall unbiased analysis. It is far too easy for writers to lash out wildly over recent news headlines (usually from the redtops) and jump to snap judgements with overly choleric temperament, with out taking a step back to look at the bigger picture. Untold creates the perfect antidote to the exponential anxiety created by sufing the blogosphere. Deepest thanks, and I look forward to your next article!!
@Amr:Ok point taken.Darren dein is doing his job.
What i am trying is to say is that bringing back the dein family as some fans are demanding is a knee jerk reaction. Fans are saying dein loves the club well if they love the club so much would not they tell their players it is in their best interests to stay at arsenal.
Remember regardless of whether a transfer happens or not agents get paid. If dein is willing to pimp out the players for a few quid that shows how much they love arsenal.
Walter, I think you should read the last article on 7amkickoff and also see the pictures from the link the athor gives(http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3679274/Is-Arsene-Wenger-splashing-out-in-Europe.html). To cut the suspense, you can find there pictures with Arsene Wenger AND David Dein having fun THIS summer in Corsica.
So, I seriously doubt that DD is trying to destroy Arsenal and AW’s work. Anyway, I doubt that him and AW would go on holiday together if that was true. At the same time, DD works for R&W Holdings, that owns 29,99999999…% of Arsenal shares. And I doubt that Usmanov, the owner of R&WH, really wants the Arsenal shares to fall. And generally that’s what happens when a club loses his best players…
The most probable variant is that Dein Jr. is a shrewd agent who does everything he can to earn money. At the same time, Nasri, Hleb and Flamini are all for the money, so they didn’t really need any exterior influence to do the things they did…
@roger brierly-Arshavin’s fee was 15 mil+1.5 mil as addition bonus bringing it to 16.5 mil and not 6 mil(Dont know where you got that figure from).
Happy to see I’m not the only one who thought of it, but I have a slightly different take on it:
1- Yes David Dein had a different vision for the club, which was to bring in Stan K, for which he got kicked out. Silent Stan is now the owner of te club, not sure abt the logic here… But most importantly he acted as our director of football and closed deals. Which means deals such as Schwartzer, Samba and co wouldn’t have dragged on only to fizzle out. That’s the current problem with Arsenal, no one can close a deal. And it shouldn’t be the manager’s job to do so.
2- Revenge tastes good, but money tastes even better. Agents get big money when moving their players around, so while D Jr might have thought twice abt moving a player when D Sr was around, I guess that now he’s just doing what agents do… making $$. And if it screws up arsenal in the process, so be it, but I don’t think it’s the primary goal. $$ always is the primary goal in football.
3- sad to say, but you can probably guess whose adebayor and gallas agent is.
To thicken “DeinGate” with a flight of (timely) fancy: Perhaps Dein Jr has a strategic, feeder partnership with The Sun – yes, mates, a Murdoch property like (trumpets) N.O.T.W. – and he feeds them the rumors that they then publish, exclusively, as fact. Or is it the other way around? Perhaps they’ve hacked into Dein’s mobile phone. Or into Cesc’s? Today’s “issue” (ahem) takes two shots at Arsenal: one, an “exclusive” that Cesc has told teammates on arrival yesterday that he is personally agitating to go to Barca; who, in turn, confirm his “instigation”; the other shot declares that we are now a de facto feeder club for ManShitty. To do that, of course, they’d require microphones in the toilet. Then again, the Sun does have a major office in Manchester (as in London). Now if Ruppie gains total control, as now hangs in the balance, of BskyB, I would imagine a nightly news segment called “Cesc!” which simply regurgitates Sunspots like today’s. Perhaps it’s due time for a solar eclipse, as big advertisers begin to pull ads out of Ruppie’s properties. That said, perhaps The Sun will try to balance the loss in ad revenues with additional shots at Arsenal (from 2 to 3 daily) and 24×7 coverage of their CescWatch. That said, perhaps UA would now consider a DeinWatch? In any case, one lesson emerges: despite some readers impatience, it is increasingly clear that gaining understanding of the business context is essential for understanding the transfer window. And for bringing this relentless perspective hereabouts, I say major kudos to UA. [This was brought to you by mediawatch, an ad-free flight of fancy, or is it fact?.]
great and totally agree… dein was a great with transfer dealing something wenger is to involed in since dein left that is my main reason i miss him!!! i remember in 1997/8 we started the season after many singings that summer we where writen off from the start and what happend double winners
@Sharpshooter: a truly nice one, cheers! But (always but): it would hardly surprising to contemplate that fathers and sons are more often not on the same page. perhaps junior has rebelled (for deep seated psychological reasons) against da’s Arsenal legacy. or perhaps dein the elder makes money by Arsenal’s success, whilst dein the younger (or is it the lesser) makes money by inducing Arsenal’s woes?
p.s. that would be a strategic parentship (er, partnership)
Is David Dein still working for Usmanov? I heard he wasn’t involved anymore with Usmanov a while ago.
So the guy who wants to launch a takeover of the club wants to see the share price rise? Are you sure?
This has some parallels to Murdoch and BSkyB does it not… and watch the share price plummet off the back of bad publicity.
Oh…and Sharpshooter – I wonder who tipped off the paparazzi and got the boat in position to take those pictures?
More fool us!
😉
AMR, this all might be true but it is rather a big coincidence that all the players he has at Arsenal are supposed to want to go away.
This could point at a sour relation between the agent and the club. So when I look at possible human nature facts I think it could be that Dein Jr is angry that Arsenal has thrown his father out of the club. In fact I think it is even a very human reaction. Not the reaction of a businessman but the possible reaction of a son who loves his father and thinks he has been treated wrong.
But as we cannot look in the heart and mind of people we will never know these things. All I “know” is that the players who have Dein junior as agent want to leave (or left) Arsenal (according to the press). And I just think this is strange
@DogFace: Agree with you.A guy who wants to take over would want the share to go down, simple business sense.
The Sun is so full of s*it, I wouldn’t be surprised if those pictures were years old.
Kanu left Arsenal to go to West Brom. Not Portsmouth. He was at West Brom for two years then went to Portsmouth, so I don’t think he left Arsenal for trophies.
But look at Portsmouth now. ‘Arry the Twitch did well for a little bit, bankrupted them and fucked off before the ship sank. Here’s hoping he does the same to Sp*rs!
@Walter: “according to the press” is the critical word here.
Don’t believe anything they write anyway.
Until transfer actually happen, there’s way too much politics and “intrigue” to say what is the truth.
But you can’t deny that 2 brains is better than 1, and I’d rather have Dein and Usmanov on board helping our club, rather than as freelancers.
At some point people got to realise that money is not bad.
It’s what you do or don’t with it that matters and defines if it’s good or bad on long term.
Refusing investment in the club is just plain stubbornness.
@sahil – now throw into that mix the history of Dein with the Arsenal board, Kroneke and Usmanov.
Dein did everything he could to claw his way to the top of the club, he brought in Kroneke and then went cap in hand to Usmanov so I doubt that Kroneke would have much time for him now he has a place on the board if he perceived that as a betrayal of his best interests.
So where does this leave David Dein and his ‘ever shifting’ endgame – as far as I can see; his avarice is the architect of his own ends here…
It is definitely a body blow at the self-sustaining model to continue lose its finest products to the same agent who is the son of the man who was ejected for opposing the self-sustaining model. It it intentional? accidental? we can’t know with total certainty, as several have said. but does it matter to Arsenal’s prospect? Either way, the self-sustaining approach is under a severe (its most severe?) test. And the piling on – and it is piling on, with glee – in much of the media, and, certainly the Murdoch media – may well be a concerted assault on the self-sustaining model. Destroy that alternative and only the richest flourish. That, to me, is hardly far-fetched and “conspiratorial.” Rather is is downright conspiratorial, which is the nature of business as usual.
Ivory, I agree with “according to the press” but why don’t you hear the same thing (or seldom) about other players who don’t have Dein as their agent?
p.s. as an add on:
Further support for the idea that Murdoch’s Media (The Sun, etc.) would be keen to target the self-sustaining model itself only have to recall that Ruppie made the all-out effort to takeover ManUre in 1999 through BSkyB!!, and was only blocked because of the intervention by the government’s Monopolies and Mergers Commission. (The process was detailed by the book “Not for Sale! Manchester United, Murdoch and the Defeat of BSkyB”)
after reading a some of the comments, i do agree there COULD be something fishy going on, and you are right, it is highly suspicious that all Dein Jr. clients have left/want to leave…The relation between club and agent in this case is well a truly soured a long time ago, your right that its good practise to build good business relations based on trust, It just seems like wishful thinking when looking at the state of the football world. Corruption and Money and a distinct lack of trust fuel the belly of the beast, doesn’t make it less frustrating as an Arsenal fan when it seems that we are the only club trying to “fight” against it…a little bit atleast…Denilson is still on 50k a week though, maybe Dein Jr. can find him a club lol
Interestingly, to the idea that money is driving the current major assault on Arsenal: both Dein Jr (from within) and Murdoch’s media (from outside) each make lots of money (and headlines) at Arsenal’s expense. Whether there is any direct coordination (or none needed, just a convergence of interests?) remains to be seen.
Amr, yes, “COULD be” (as you put it) is a far different place than “is not.” It grows more questions, demands sharper thinking, and sometimes reaches more encompassing answers. And the whiff of something closer to the truth is much more fun. (Note the smiley face at the end of TwoLeftFeet’s posting.)
@bob- I totally agree with your assessment that there is a concerted assault on arsenal by Murdoch media.Destroy the alternative and let the rich flourish.If we compare the murdoch media(ex sun) to the non murdoch media(ex guardian)we can see the murdoch media is always more negative towards arsenal.
Our self sustaining model should be praised but the murdoch media never does that.
It should be noted that that the murdoch media is biased everywhere in the world.In america murdoch controls Fox news channel which many a times act as a unofficial mouthpiece of the republicans.This guy will go to any length to further his interests.
In my personal opinion what we are seeing is the results of a discreet hostile takeover.It may seem far fetched but i believe for the past five years arsenal and their fans have been the victims of manipulation. Step 1-destablise. step 2-demoralise step 3- cause a rebellion step 4- move in and take over. The four steps to a take over if im not not mistaken created by the kgb as war tactics to take over governments to be seen as the hero cleaning up the mess that was created. Sound familiar. The people (fans)are the key because we create change through voting or rebellion.Thats why the arsenal fans are seeing so many news reports and rumours.Why all these tactics? In my opinion its so us fans demand change which under normal circumstances we would reject then the persons who in the background have been waiting patiently offers the the solution.Question is who would this. Funny how we have an americans and russians fighting for territory.Mini cold war me thinks.
@DogFace: Agree with you dein himself kept shifting allegiances and was ultimately thrown out.I guess if he had stayed with kroenke we would still have been on board.He played a game and fell victim to it himself.
Sahil,
As you say, the Guardian is measurably less negative (though some of its writers are nasty vs. Arsenal and a few are not) that the Murdoch media (the Sun, etc.) For one example, the Guardian has been the lead newspaper in breaking and pursuing and now covering the now massive public outcry against how NewsOfTheDay has violated people’s privacy without restraint. For a media group whose standard operating procedure is to violate restraint, it is hardly surprising to find them at the front of the pack that tears away at Arsenal.
Sahil, sorry, just in case you didn’t, please note that News Of The WEEK is a Murdoch property.
@Meditation: What you say does not sound very far fetched to me. This is how governments are toppled and hostile business takeovers are done.I would not be surprised if what you say turns out to be true indeed.
Meditation,
It does seem like a destabilization campaign – that is, a full notch more than in the past (note how people have been posting here that this is an oasis from the outside relentless shite-sturm). The hypothesis that we/Arsenal are in the cross-hairs is worth keeping in play, if only to see how much it explains or fails to explain. There is severe pressure being put on us and I’ve not been around long enough to know if it’s a quantum jump more severe now than it has been in the last 5-10 years. Perhaps there’s been a spike since Dein has left? In any case, it would be good to learn more from readers and your willingness to pose an alternative explanation is very welcome in my book.
@bob: I too read in the newspaper today about the phone hacking scandal.Just look at some of the allegations, newsoftheworld hacked into the cell phone of a missing girl deleted messages and gave false hope to the parents that the girl was alive.What we have been saying here at untold before about murdoch media is coming out to be true.The murdoch media will keep tearing into arsenal until 1)Rupert himself takes over arsenal(would be one the saddest days of my life) 2)We too become a money spurlging club like manshitty or chelsea.
Wasn’t Wenger yachting with dein this week?
They must be friends of some sort.
Wenger is smart, and would be able to sense this kind of agenda.
Would Arsene holiday with the man whos son is taking apart his team?, because if this had truth to it, wenger would know about it.
I think that Wenger and Dein were cooking up some transfer plans, which is a very good thing, as it is widely accepted that dein a)commands the respect of wenger, and b)likes to buy big established names.
I know dein has no gravitas at arsenal anymore, but he might still have a sway over what Arsene thinks.
Perhaps Wenger, Dein, Kroneke and Usmanov are all in it together?!
😀
Sorry, I had to throw it out there!
Willybilly,
Why call it a holiday? Are holidays not also working vacations, at this time especially? Yes, Arsene is smart. And so, perhaps, to break a current logjam, Dein Sr. is well-positioned to help broker/negotiate/mediate in a deal between Dein the Lesser and Arsene/Arsenal about the departure (or staying) terms of one or more of Dein Jr.’s player-clients (Cesc, etc.) It’s not that he’s either savior or satan; more likely, in my lights, a power broker with access and entree rights in many venues.
ACO,
Yep, it is fun, and easy to do. So now, why not a follow up so it becomes serious fun? any thoughts on these matters?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuQmaupl5Gk&feature=related This is a great video which explains my last comment.It shows the the four step tactics. Honestly you could change the words people to fans and countries to clubs and war to football and it mirrors exactly whats going on with the arsenal experience at this moment. Arsenal fans have been segregated into rivals about the same thing. Change therefore is inevitable.Ultimate goal. Normalization.
@walter,tony: Can you tell me is the pressure being put on us now(last2-3 years)by the media is more or less than what it was 5-10 years ago. Like bob i too have not been around too long to know.Would appreciate if you reply!
Without calling it a campaign to get Arsenal, and failing to note the UA Dein Factor (except for a cute remark about how fast Arsene seems to have returned – via skidoo? – from the alleged yacht holiday), the Arseblog today interestingly details the dynamics of how newspaper-after-newspaper tells us daily that such-and-such is gone as a FACT, and then how the next day there’s not a trace of that player’s leaving. http://arseblog.com/ Arseblog thereby tells us how much pressure all this is putting on Arsenal fans, let alone the management. While the Arseblog reaches no conclusions as to exactly what is going on, it’s an interesting read in this moment.
@bob – I mean it… well – to some extent.
If I were a ruthless businessman up against a ruthless oligarch in no holds barred fight for a big juicy pie.
I think I would arrange for a mediation or a ‘go between’ in which we decide on how we are going to ‘slice it up’ as it were – oh we’ll make it look like the ‘Two Tribes’ video (by Frankie goes to Hollywood) sure, but the fight, like much of the football these days, will be more WWE and ‘fixed’ for mutual financial gain.
@Meditation – interesting video… given his history, Usmanov would probably be well aware of KGB tactics:
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/03/why_was_alisher/
@bob
Yes this could be the case.
You are right to think that Arsene could be trying to influence the actions of dein jr, by talking to dein senior.
Although whatever the motivation for the meeting/holiday, it can only have a positive outcome in my opinion.
Dogface,
Methinks that’s a lot of aliases for one or two writers, huh?
Maybe it’s been somebodys’ summer job (transfer window)? Sure beats selling door to door poetry…
ACO, great your Frankie Goes to Hollywood reference! maybe too true to be good, eh?
ACO, ditto on your Usmanov link!
@DogFace Usmanov doesn’t have a chance in hell to buy the club in the foreseeable future. So, he doesn’t have any interest in our shares falling. Not right now, anyway.
At the same time, if we sell every good player that we have, when he buys the club, he has to replace them. How? By spending enormous amount of cash. Because if our club gets owned by some free-spending tycoon like Usmanov (God forbid), the value of any of our transfer targets will double.
About the paparazzi issue, it doesn’t really matter who gave them the tip. The important issue is that AW and DD seem to get on really well. So, that’s why I don’t believe the latest “conspiracy theory” on the Dein family.
P.S. Don’t believe I’m some DD or Usmanov fan. And, to be honest Silent Stan seems a nice guy…for an American 🙂
@Sharpshooter
You have declared a lot there, and it’s an optimistic stance but not really backed it up with any kind of reasoning. For instance why is what you deduce about the relationship between Wenger and Dein from a photograph the ‘important issue’ of the day? Surely that’s just an opinion?
I wish I could be as positive as you about Kroenke but I share your concerns about Usmanov!
@bob – yes, it smacks of a campaign of sorts… could there be something more to this in the context of what Meditation has posted. Is this part of a wider destabilisation move to breed discontent in the fanbase?
There were 2 posters creating hundreds of posts full of negativity over around 30 different user accounts. I see these types of posts on other blogs and all over the tabloid newspaper article comment sections and social networking sites. It is a small minority who wish to infiltrate with an agenda – it could be just be ultra passionate BSM supporters who have a lot of time on their hands or it could be something else… does anyone know if these ‘disenfranchised fan’ groups receive any funding?
Sharpshooter,
You don’t know when that photo was taken, whether it’s authentic, the occasion when the meeting occurred, the reason why the meeting occurred, yes, how the paparazzi – if they were paparazzi – found out, etc. etc. You blanket other possibilities – like Dein is a go-between and/or broker for others with competing/converging interests – with your fact-free assurance that they are good friends, end of story. You might well be right. But you, like anyone else except Arsene and Dein, don’t know these facts. And why the Sun (was it) chose to run it (yesterday was it?) is also of interest. So there are no grounds to simply dismiss a raft (should I say yacht) of reasonable questions that go beyond the mere surface which, in fact, tells us nothing.
Dogface,
Do you have any legal basis for a spamming complaint or any other type of legal complaint that might lead you to the identities of the two posters? or the location of their computers? Do the dates of the bulk of the postings tell you anything – e.g., that they were sent in the run-up to this transfer season? I completely take on that it may well be better not to answer any of this hereabouts; but even being able to indicate that there’s a way – or a possible way – to hold those two chronic doom-spreaders accountable for targeting us/UA might act as a deterrent of sorts going forward. Anyway, it’s good that you could ferret out rats, whoever or whatever their motivator$.
@DogFace I think I gave some reasoning to what I’ve said so your assertion that I don’t “…really backed it up with any kind of reasoning” seems a bit harsh, tbh. Obviously, I know that the picture appeared in The Sun and I know what kind of newspaper The Sun is.
The only problem is that all those players (Flamini, Clichy, Hleb, Nasri, even Vieira) left or want to leave because they want MONEY. Big money. That’s no need for Dein jr. to make them leave. Show them a 50 euro bill and they’ll fight for it like mad dogs (kidding).I think we should accept that our players are not saints and some of them might not even be Arsenal fans.
I don’t believe that Nasri wants to stay at Arsenal with all his heart and Dein jr. came like some Jedi master and told him “Samir Kenobi to leave Arsenal you should. Line our pockets we must”.
And the internet campaign against Arsenal, this one certainly exists. I’m getting tired of so many Arsenal blogs without any readers (you can tell that looking at the lack of comentaries) slating AW and the board.
I told myself I’d never comment on a football message board again. Then I came across Untold 🙂
The point is – As long as Untold is around the blogosphere is not all negative. Even the rational Arseblogger at times goes a little overboard; largely I like his stuff though.
The best is to just ignore all of it really. And not click on all that trash on Goonernews and Newsnow. The less you click, the less their revenues are and maybe some will just get bored and shut down. IMO anyway.
Walter I agree to an extent that the Dein family may not have Arsenals interest at heart after the sacking of David.
But you asked a question that was maybe a bit unfair.
Who was Thierry Henry when he came to us? Who was Patrick Vieira when he came to us? Even Dennis Bergkamp was no longer a big name, having had a very poor time in Milan.
Thiery Henry was already a world cup winner in 1998 he joined us in 1999 Patrck Vierra the same. Dennis was also a good player you could include Marc Overmars also. Sure we have bought some not so good players also under Deins time at teh club.
Sharpshooter,
Having watched with dismay Sammy Nasri’s happy-go-lucky visage and blase attitude during the lap of honor to the fans after the last match at the Ems, I have to agree that he doesn’t have Arsenal-loyalty in his heart. That said, I want him on my side. On this we may well have to eyes-open re-join the world as it currently is and not insist with our hearts on litmus tests as a criteria for signing. I don’t believe any side can legislate loyalty any more than someone can buy authentic love. The best idea for achieving cost-effective service might well be (1) the youth program (starting them young); though, on this, I think we might revisit Dark Prince’s analysis/typology to the effect that later youth purchases do not turn out to be as loyal as those who start out in the academy at the earliest ages. (But expectations of a long-standing stay in the ranks is over.) and (2) being able and willing to splash for the proven mercenary who fills the need with admirable skill. That two-track approach is needed and Nasri needs to be considered as a necessary mercenary, unless we can somehow bring in a better one or find his equal in our youth pipeline.
@bob
Nasri as a mercenary? That’s a bit strong isn’t it? Why should he be especially loyal to arsenal? He’s only been with us 3years, has established himself as one of our best players so wants to be financially compensated. If we aren’t prepared to pay the “going rate” for a top class player, he’s well within his rights to look elsewhere. Just as we all are in our normal job. I don’t think that makes him a mercenary at all, just an employee. As fans we have to stop putting players in our position and expect them also to be fans.
@Stevie E
I agree with you and I wouldn’t call Nasri a mercenary (at least just yet). However, I also wouldn’t keep him at the cost of the organisational structure UNLESS that structure changing was deemed to be in our best interest and that we could manage it without the transition causing us even more upheavals. So if Nasri on the back of 6 months of output can demand top, top pay, what would stop the others from demanding more? If he signs, and at whatever salary is deemed acceptable by both parties then fine. But the club should not break our structure only to accommodate him. He hasn’t earned that yet.
@Shard
I couldn’t agree more, I don’t advocate breaking the structure at all. I just fear that people are getting carried away with reports in the press saying he wants away when in reality we have no idea what’s going on, that’s when the negativity and name calling starts. It could be everyone is on holiday so no negotiations are taking place. The fact we don’t know anything for sure just means we need to be careful how we label people.
Why do people want Dein back, I don’t understand? Not so long ago many people who comment on here and other blogs were criticising the club for their (poor) commercial and sponsorship deals compared to other clubs. Are these the same people who also want Dein back in power I wonder? Dein was the man responsible for these commercial deals in the first place so lets get him back and have some more of that.
I’m saying that I want him back and that to be in the real world we should not regard him as an Arsenal-in-the-heart loyalist, but as a gun-for-hire, like any other outsider we would otherwise splash a lot on to replace him. I’m saying that our replacement for Nasri the hoped-for loyalist should be Nasri the hired-gun (who I suggested we regard – going forward – as a mercenary, but gun-for-hire is a better way to say what I mean to say). I’m trying, clumsily in seems, to try and get us away from overly romanticizing our players and then getting let down if they leave us; instead, to take on a different attitude to what today’s players are about, which is not one of womb-to-tomb loyalty. If we can adjust to that reality as fans, we will be less heart-broken (as I have been feeling of late around the possible departures). We can’t expect or demand heartfelt loyalty from players to the team. Nor do I think that should stop us from being passionate fans of our team. I think it’s a step toward greater realism to take this on. It’s really all I have to say about it as feelings tend to evolve as the volatile times we’re immersed in continue to evolve/devolve by the day. (This said, I’d hoped for as strong a reaction on the various media related observations throughout today’s postings.)
@Shard, Stevie E: sorry, my last was pour vous.
Does make you wonder. Seems like the guys to gain most from all this negativity could be in usmanovs camp but could dein ever return to this side?
Not only are there stories about players leaving, recently I have read about some high profile arrivals in the press, another damaging practice that will enrage some fans if these players do not arrive , wenger will be accused of dithering over someone the daily mail alone may have said he was interested it.
Call me a paranoid conspiracy theorist but this club, more than any other seems under attack from so many angles.
Is it beyond the realms of possibility some of these problems may come from closer to home than some would imagine? After all lady Nina was intriguingly adamant dein was the source of current day problems. A bitter woman scorned or someone who knows things?
Just my take on the situation
The self sustaining model is a good one especially for the owners as they don’t have to spend any of their own money in the club aside from purchasing shares and when the time is right they can sell for a profit. To me Silent Stan is no better than Usmanov as when the time is right he will sell the club for a profit and remember that he doesn’t care that much for football.
The Nuggets, Broncos will always come before Arsenal. And ask yourself why as a Business man who isn’t football person would you buy a football club?
@ Tony & Walter since both your names are on this piece can you please provide the sources or proof of said players representation? A kind request.
@bob
I’ve been too busy the past couple of days to really take note of the stuff being said in the media. I’m just happy to see the pictures of the players back in training. The real stuff is now ever so close.
Ian Wright though didn’t even anger me. I actually LOLed when I read about how Arsenal are showing no ambition with Gervinho while other clubs are signing world class players like Young and Downing.
@Stevie E
I’m with you there
@Jas777
Not really important, but Kroenke does not own the Broncos. he owns the St. Louis Rams.
Thanks for all that Tony and Walter. What a coincidence. Any chance of something like this being connected to the ‘ref’ problem? And any chance of something like this being involved in the ‘how the hell did a crap team like ManU win the title last year’ problem? Interesting! And then there are mystery illnesses that go on and on and strange, poor, individual performances totally out of synch that occur over and over. What a rich vein for thought!
@Walter and Tony:
For what it’s worth, it appears that, as of July 6, Arsene Wenger and David Dein are currently on holiday together 🙂 There’s a picture of them along with this report in the Sun:
“Arsenal boss Wenger has been snapped on a yacht, called Take It Easier, off the island of Corisca with none other than former Gunners vice-chairman David Dein.”
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/3680456/Stan-Kroenke-may-not-be-impressed-to-see-our-snap-of-Arsene-Wenger-with-David-Dein.html#ixzz1ROeDJhw0
So, although there could still be something to the claims you’re making in your article, I find it difficult to believe that Arsene would actually be vacationing with Dein if he was part of a campaign to actively destabilize Arsene’s team.
Murdoch’s The Sun (which as you’ve cited)is the source of much of last summer’s Cesc Tapping, and has a steady drip-drip of 2-3 anti-Arsenal articles per day – today: “Arsenal Now City’s Feeder Club” and “Djourou Plays Down Cesc Fears” and “Fabregas: That’s My Lot, Gunner” runs the photo showing Arsene, Dein and an unidentified woman with them. We don’t know when that photo was taken, whether it’s authentic, the occasion when the meeting occurred, the reason why the meeting occurred, and how the paparazzi – if they were paparazzi – found out that they were there. They may be friends. They may be doing business. Dein is a deal-maker/power broker with multiple interests. And we don’t know the facts. The picture is at minimum not showing a good time, but rather grim faces. It could have been taken from long distance so that the heaviness in the air may not be a reaction to being confronted or even knowing of being photographed. And the photographer is not being sourced. There’s really no grounds to assume that its anything, positive or negative. And, appearing in context of this intensely anti-Arsenal transfer window of which the Sun is leading the drumbeat (and the other 3 anti-Arsenal stories in this issue), I can’t assume, conclude, suggest that it comes down to friends on vacation, end of story. I confess that I have no idea what is going on in that picture and that I can’t/won’t conclude it’s a friendly meeting.
p.s. With today’s shock downfall of Murdoch’s News of the World, The Sun is going to 7 days a week to fill in the Sunday gap, and is the most read paper in the Anglosphere. Until shown otherwise, given their outreach and their AA track record, nothing they report on Arsenal can be taken at face value.
One question to ask about the Dein-Wenger picture is “Why did they publish it two days ago?” As pre-season training started this week, the picture must be at least a week old. But comparing the picture with the latest pictures from London Colney on Arsenal.com you will see that Wenger’s hairstyle is different and his hair is longer (especially in the neck), suggesting the picture from the Sun is at least a few weeks old.
Another question is what the Sun is trying to achieve by publishing this picture. Should we be shocked that Wenger is still good friends with Dein, even after “his role in the failed bid of Alisher Usmanov”? Wenger has stated before that he does not involve himself with the ownership of the club; he sees himself as an employee with the task to coach and manage the first team. To me this article by the Sun is just another attempt to create unrest under the fans, which will not work on me.
Kentetsu,
Exactly, well spotted! Why now – it IS an old picture. Why publish now? To further destabilize Arsenal management by sowing internal distrust as to which director’s/stockholder’s side is Arsene really on? – common nonsense by the Sun. Also, who is the unidentified woman (with eyes looking downward)? Maybe there’s some “hint of scandal” in this – or not? Nothing in The Sun – especially when it comes to Arsenal, and surely during the transfer window – is just as it appears.
@bob:
Maybe the pic in the Sun is questionable. I certainly know as well as anyone to not take anything they report at face value. The reason I tend to believe that this one is real is that I’ve seen other news reports (I’d have to back and track them down to find the specific ones) about Arsene being on holiday recently, and specifically about him being on vacation on a yacht.
I’ve also seen other pictures of Arsene on the yacht, and in the photo I linked to, he’s clearly on some kind of boat (note the railing, and that the woman is wearing a bathing suit). So, in this case, the report that Arsene could have been vacationing with Dein recently appears plausible. Could it be fabricated somehow? Sure.
Personally, I’m not that worried about it. I don’t see that it has any implications whatsoever, aside from the fact that, if it was taken recently, Arsene and Dein probably aren’t in open hostilities.
I guess this article has been very biased against Dein. Isn’t it Dein who brought Wenger to Arsenal?? Didnt he help to buy players like Van Persie, Cesc, Henry, Bergkamp, Campbell, Kolo, etc etc etc??
And still this articles has nothing but baseless accusations and assumptions against him. Sad but you guys are way off the reality.
Dark Prince,
Didn’t Dein have an acrimonious parting of the ways with Arsenal. Wasn’t there a major rift over self-sustaining Vs. rich man takeover. Ever hear of “that was then, this is now.” This is about Arsenal-Dein (Arsene-Dein is a secondary matter at best). You are stuck in your roundabout – so don’t go casting who is way out off the reality. As you are its keeper, please do tell is “the reality” that you invoke. Please provide CONTENT that is current so that you too come and and play. (BTW, did you subscription to NOTW get cancelled? Condolences.)
p.s. should read: “do tell us WHAT is the reality you invoke.”
Bob, you are correct about the Dein/Wenger yacht photo.
Anne really overlooked the Mundodeportivo.com showing a fuller version of the photograph, captioned as “Wenger,¡mójate ya!.
It should be pointed out that Cesc had a column with “The Sun” last season, ghosted most likely. Dein jnr has good contacts with the Murdoch press and of course with the former President of FC Barcelona.
Notoverthehill,
Does that Mundodeportivo caption translate to roughly “Wenger, do something already”? If so, then it basically is saying that Wenger is off on holiday (with a suspect relationship or two) while Rome (Arsenal) is burning. In other words, it is designed to stoke anti-Arsene feeling to further divide the fan base in this delicate moment in the transfer window. Would you say that? Many thanks for your bringing this forward – and we’re all ears for your further views on the topic. Cheers!
Notoverthehill,
I’m ignorant on this, and to be honest, I’m skeptical at first blush of your claim about Cesc, though open to actual evidence. You say that Cesc had a column in The Sun last season, and that it was probably ghost-written – BUT this needs corroborating evidence. Can you provide one or more links to any such article(s)? Your posting is important, but it requires evidence – so, with respect, providing links to both the mundodeportivo photo and to a purported “Cesc” column in The Sun is needed, so that people hereabouts can know/judge whether what you’ve stated is factual. I would gladly accept the same request for further evidence of whatever I allege just as I’ve posed to you. So please don’t take this as more or less than that. Cheers.
p.s. Also, to be rigorous, even IF Cesc had a regular column in the Sun last season as you state, what matters is what was stated in any given column that could actually be construed as anti-Arsenal – IF that is the/your implication. Is it? Knee-jerk reactions have to be reined in and facts need to be provided, at least for me, for your posting to be helpful. Please be helpful in that way or acknowledge that there are no links to back up whatever you are implying.
“Wenger, íGet wet!” or Let’s swim! in this context?
As for the Cesc column in The Sun, why on earth should it be Anti-Arsenal?
As you doubt my veracity, please look at http://www.thesunco.uk/…Column/…/Cesc-Fabregas-my-leg-is-broken-and-so-a...
It is NOT a paper I have ever had the need to look at!
I believe you must be a pedant?
Notoverthehill,
no, no — I don’t doubt your veracity at all. I just want you to be on solid ground. It’s not pedantry that drives me, really. These are important points you make and it’s best to document where and as we can. No offense at all was meant, so please don’t take personally. Just being safe-safe. Cheers for the link and for going the extra mile.
Notoverthehill,
Thanks for the translation, but so that I assume nothing, what meanings do you attach to the picture and to the caption?
Also, to better explain myself, all day comments have been critical of The Sun. You turn up, today, that Cesc had a ghost-written column last season in that very newspaper. So I feared that your raising this point, in today’s context, might be to indicate that something about the column was anti-Arsenal. So please don’t be surprised that I asked you for further explanation and an example of the “Cesc” column (btw, the link as you pasted it doesn’t work, so you might re-paste it). In any case, I genuinely would like to know what you are saying when you brought in (a) the photo caption and (b) the Cesc column reference. RSVP
@bob and notoverthehill:
I’m reluctant to keep arguing over this photo because I don’t really have any personal stake in whether it’s authentic or not. And I’m definitely not remotely interested in any kind of defense of the Sun 🙂
But notoverthehill, I don’t understand what point you’re making about this mundodeportivo article and the larger photo it showed. The larger photo confirmed what I said in the first place, which was that Arsene was standing on a yacht with Dein and a woman in a bathing suit. The MD “article” was really just a photo caption, and there were two photos of Arsene on the yacht. One of him on a water slide, and the other was the one with Dein.
The headline is “Wenger, get wet already!”
Followed by: “The Sun spread the photos of the coach on the yacht ‘take it easier’ next to David Dein!”
The caption on the Yacht deck photo says: “Wenger on the ‘Take it Easier.'”
The water slide caption translates as follows:
“Arsene, hands up! These pictures are of Wenger’s recent yacht journey through Corcega. The Arsenal coach has enjoyed a calm summer, without worrying about the desires to leave of Cesc, Nasri, and Company. One of his companions on the trip was David Dein, the ex-gunner vice president, and the father of the representative of Cesc, Darren Dein. The things that happen…Although Wenger is in his 60s, he slid into the water with the illusion of a child. On the other hand, he continues without getting wet on the things that really matter.” (note: I’m guessing that that last part was a reference to Cesc).
In general, mundodeportivo’s reporting is pro-Cesc transfer but not anti-Arsenal. I don’t ever see them take the kind of cheap pot shots at Arsene and Arsenal than the English press do. All they’ll ever say that’s negative towards him is that he should hurry up and get Cesc transferred to Barcelona already.
So, although this article wasn’t exactly flattering to Arsene on the Cesc score, I don’t read it as truly cheap or malicious, and I don’t believe that your interpretation of it above is correct. And while I’m not really concerned about defending the authenticity of this photo (it may not be authentic), I don’t see how this in anyway shows that I “overlooked” something. In fact, it corroborates what I said. So I’m a little confused here.
http://www.mundodeportivo.com/20110707/fichajes/wenger-mojate-ya_54181829943.html
Thanks, Anne. I think The Sun is using the photo, without that caption, to try and show that Wenger is now on vacation and not taking care of business (fiddling while Rome burns). It is an older photo Ken. indicated, with the present purpose to divide Arsenal fans. I didn’t second Notoverthehill’s motion that you had “missed” the fullness of MD’s coverage. I asked for his translation and thanked him for his effort when he felt offended for being asked, and then realizing that I still didn’t know what he meant (as it wasn’t clear, as you remark), I’ve asked for further clarification. I don’t care to keep this one alive, but I do think the Sun found a nasty use for the photo as I’ve described it here. I don’t care if I’m right, it’s just how I see them and their hand at work.
@bob:
Maybe you’ll appreciate MD’s reporting about Arsene on the water slide if you take a look at what the Sun wrote in the article that they sourced it from (I covered this one in my talking points article). 🙂
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3679274/Is-Arsene-Wenger-splashing-out-in-Europe.html#ixzz1RPI4FjBj
It would have been very easy for MD to just translate the Sun’s report and be done with it, but notice that they instead chose to change the angle, and make it much more fair and respectful towards Arsene 🙂
Yowsa! MD’s coverage is a quantum leap more respectful. THE SUN’s piece is phenomenal: Arsene at sea, slippery slope, mystery woman, the full monty! It’s such a snide bit of character-assassination. We should keep the “watch” on the alleged writer, Rhodri Phillips, for his/her further shenanigans. The date on the issue is July 9, right? Did you catch Kenentsu’s posting about Arsene’s hair, today or yesterday, being longer than it is in the last photo – the point being that he’s not now on vacation, even as the Sun tries to portray it that way – but busy frolicking, whilst, as it says in the text, Arsenal’s players are leaving, and the rest of the 7 Talking Points. BTW, I hope you caught wind of my potential motives list. Can’t wait to see your next tomorrow afternoon.
@bob:
I did see your potential motives list, and I’ll take it into consideration. I’m guessing I’m going to be busy with another comments thread for awhile. As for Arsene’s haircut, it wouldn’t be surprising to me if he got a trim before he headed back to work after vacation. Personally, I think he probably was on vacation with Dein, but I also don’t think it matters a lick. Cheers 🙂
Bob- b4 u go on about accusing Dein, wasn’t he the same guy who introduced both Usmanov and Kroenke to the board?? He’s a big influence in english football, and we need to use his influence. When people here talk about Anti-Arsenal bias, have you ever thought who is powerful enough to protect us from such bias?? Simple answer – David Dein.
It’s not so much that Dein brought in big names. But he did push through transfers that otherwise might not have gone through. And we could’ve used that in the past few years. Anecdotally, we lost Ribery because Dein was sacked, and we’ve all seen how great a player he’s turned out to be.
@well endowed gooner
Ribery is decent enough but he isn’t the great player he’s made out to be. Vastly overrated in my opinion. I’m glad we didn’t pay 17 million for him. For the rest of your point, you may be right. I just don’t see how we can know what exactly happened behind the scenes. And as someone else pointed out on the other article on dein, for some time there was a vacancy caused by Dein’s exit. Now with Gazidis and others in place, they will do the same job.
@ Shard,
No, we don’t know what happens behind the scenes. But from memory, during the Deinless years, we were linked with a plethora of players who all happened to slip through our fingers, and now that we’ve got Gazidis, we’re suddenly able to sign mid-priced players again. I don’t think that coincidence.
And really, you’d rather we didn’t buy Ribery? 07-08 with Hleb, Flamini, Cesc, Ribery….. the mind boggles at what could have been.
I think you guys need to look in the direction of Emmanuel petit and Jerome Andersons SEM group, there you might find some answers.
Think you will find Alain Migliacci is the agent of Nasri not darren dein.