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By Walter Broeckx
As I have heard that Ramsey is the next victim of the AAA brigade I thought it would be an interesting thing to see how he is doing if we compare him with some other midfielders we have seen over the last years.
People who follow football a bit know that midfielders in general score more goals when they are in their best years. And for most midfielders this is the time when they reach the age of 22-23 until they are around 30 years old.
Now of course we should compare him with other players who play in a rather similar position. I could have taken Fabregas. But any player that you compare with Fabregas looks bad. As… well he was and is the best there is around. I also took other players who are more or less similar to Ramsey. A strong midfielder with a good physique and you can find him all over the field. So I thought that we maybe could compare him with players like Frank Lampard and I also included Paul Sholes. Two of the best English midfielders from the past 15 years one could say.
So went out on a search for the numbers of goals and assists and then I tried to see where we can place Aaron Ramsey at this point in his career. Because it is no use of comparing Ramsey who is just 21 with a player who is 24 or 28 or 37. No I took the numbers from the season in which they had more or less the same age. And this is what I found.
And I start with Ramsey himself.
| age | games | goals | assists | total goals involved | goals/game involvement |
|
17 |
22 |
2 |
3 |
5 |
0,23 |
|
18 |
22 |
1 |
3 |
4 |
0,18 |
|
19 |
29 |
4 |
3 |
7 |
0,24 |
|
20 |
19 |
2 |
1 |
3 |
0,16 |
|
21 |
29 |
2 |
7 |
9 |
0,31 |
| TOT |
121 |
11 |
17 |
28 |
0,23 |
Now the most important thing to know is that he in fact lost 1,5 year because of his terrible broken leg. Meaning also that after his return he did play some games but this season so far is his first one after that injury where he had a normal preseason.
And if we compare this with the earlier years you can see that his numbers are getting better this season.
If we take Paul Scholes we get these numbers. First of all I cannot find any numbers about Scholes before the age of 20. Maybe because he was only playing at reserve level or so? But we can see that the young Paul Scholes was having a better goal ratio than Aaron Ramsey had at 21 years old.
| age | games | goals | assists | total goals involved | goals/game involvement |
|
20 |
17 |
5 |
3 |
8 |
0,47 |
|
21 |
26 |
10 |
5 |
15 |
0,58 |
| TOT |
43 |
15 |
8 |
23 |
0,53 |
Let us move on to Frank Lampard.
| age | games | goals | assists | total goals involved | goals/game involvement |
|
18 |
10 |
1 |
0 |
1 |
0,10 |
|
19 |
16 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0,00 |
|
20 |
42 |
10 |
0 |
10 |
0,24 |
|
21 |
41 |
6 |
0 |
6 |
0,15 |
| TOT |
109 |
17 |
0 |
17 |
0,16 |
And here we see that Ramsey has a better goal ratio than Frank Lampard had at his age.
Now we all can dislike Lampard and Scholes because they are from other teams but surely we cannot deny that in the EPL they are one of the best British midfielders that have been around.
And as far as I know neither of them ever suffered from a terrible injury when they were 19 years old like Ramsey did. And who was brave enough to recover from it.
So for all those out there who are criticising Ramsey I would like to ask them to just wait and see how he will develop in the next years. And therefore I included the same numbers from probably the best midfielder we have had Cesc Fabregas and his Arsenal career.
| age | games | goals | assists | total goals involved | goals/game involvement |
|
17 |
46 |
2 |
5 |
7 |
0,15 |
|
18 |
50 |
5 |
7 |
12 |
0,24 |
|
19 |
54 |
4 |
16 |
20 |
0,37 |
|
20 |
45 |
13 |
22 |
35 |
0,78 |
|
21 |
33 |
3 |
15 |
18 |
0,55 |
|
22 |
36 |
19 |
19 |
38 |
1,06 |
|
23 |
36 |
9 |
17 |
26 |
0,72 |
| TOT |
300 |
55 |
101 |
156 |
0,52 |
Now if you just look at the numbers you will see that Fabregas is from a different order. But if you take away 1,5 years of age from Ramsey you will see that his numbers are not that far away from Ramsey in fact.
Just compare Fabregas at 19 years old with Ramsey at 21 years old because of the lost time Ramsey had. There isn’t that much difference in it for the moment.
And then we should remember that Cesc= Cesc and Aaron=Aaron. They are different players with different skills. Goal scoring is also a skill that becomes better with age and with experience. Look at Cesc and look at Lampard his numbers. The older and more experienced you get the calmer you become in front of goal.
My conclusion is that Ramsey even with the terrible injury he had is now already double the player Lampard was. Scholes was ver consistent in his goal scoring and assists in his whole career but he started at a later age in the PL and so had not as much pressure on him when playing for the reserves in his younger days.
It all will depend on how much support Aaron gets not just from the manager but also from the fans. Because we gave Cesc our support when he was young and still learning his trade. Why don’t we just do the same with Aaron and give him the chance to become better?
Or do some of us really feel the need to hate their own players?
Not a fan of Lampard, but are you sure about his stats? You have him playing 83 games between the ages of 20-21 with 0 assists, how can that be possible?
This is the gospel truth. Ramsey is a great potential and is showing tough mental strength in his recovery. Unfortunately for him, Rosicky who plays in similar position with him also shares the same injury fate. Wenger deserves credit for how well the pair are recovering from their career setbacks. Unfortunately for gooners, club-favourite Wilshere must show as much mental strength to get back to his best when he finally recovers from his injury.
Arsenal is a big club, and a big club should be competing at the top with another teams of its like. At such a time of the season, and at the position the team is. All players must deliver there very best on and off the pitch. since 96 we have never been in this position we are in today. The fans want results, and I can assure you they are getting impatient every week. We cant stand Arsenal out of the CL next season. We are desperate for goals and wins. Desperate times calls for desperate measures. Ramsey is young and very good players compared to many in the world, we shall never dispute that. We need him more than before. We need his very best at the moment.
It is a time the team just as the fans, should not tolerate under performance. Ramsey can do better. We have seen him before.
This must be when Lampard played for West Ham and of cause Scholes with the era that he grew up with including Beckham and pretty sure there were strikers like Yorke, Cole, Cantona, van Niselrooy.
I’m not dogging on Ramsey, looks like an up and coming player for the next season or so and I like him. But when there’s not creativity in the team and there’s a desperate need for it, surely we should’ve bought someone to help the guy and push him to improve? Does Wenger expect Ramsey to play every game for Arsenal?
On the one hand you’re right. Ramsey is doing very well considering his age and the injury he sustained, and I can see him being an amazing player in a few years.
On the other hand he’s the most attacking of our midfield three and given that he doesn’t do well enough. If we had someone to compare to Scholes or Lampard in their prime it wouldn’t be an issue and Ramsey could be eased in without the responsibility being dumped on his shoulders. But we don’t and so he’s going to play most games this season if fit, and at the moment he’s not doing enough.
As with a lot of players targeted by the discontented, it’s not so much about the player as about the management relying on players who aren’t as yet up to the standard we need. Being promised jam tomorrow wears thin after a while.
Ramsey for me looks much like Rooney, only that he is mentally weaker and lacks vision. He will never come close to Cesc. Arteta is the closest we would get.
Much as I like the idea of nurturing you talent, Arsenal is fast becoming a kindergarten for Barcelona. All the teams that mean business have, at any given match, no less than five proven goal scorers. Man U you would have Nani, Rooney, now lately Paul,Wallberg, Park, Valencia, Chicosicho,Barbetov, all these guy are hat-tric capable. The same can be said about Man city, Real Madrid, Barcelona and Chelsea before they self-destruction.
Is arsenal not suppose to be in that league?
You seem to choose to make a misleading point.-Aaron Ramsey is not and never has been criticised for who he is- Wenger is being criticised for being over-reliant on a kid learning his trade. The AAA know he is no replacement for Cesc- not Cesc 5 years ago- Cesc now.- and it is stupid to argue otherwise.
the lad has played too many games this campaign.we did not buy in the jan window so perhaps AA23 should be allowed to play int he hole? just a thought.
Stats don’t lie, very revealing stuff. I believe that he is ready for EPL life as a regular starter, but not yet at a big club like Arsenal, I would prefer him to be a first sub to a big name attacking midfielder, hope the summer transfer window provides for us.
Aaron Ramsey will become a goal scoring midfielder. He is doing everything right…the movement, the positions the runs from deep but he is far too anxious to score right now. That’s something which will come slowly. And he can score..remember Marseille away? Like the rest of the team he is suffering from a goal drought of sorts.
He’ll be okay..Wilshere and Diaby both being out along with Cesc and Nasri being out has meant he has been under far too much pressure. He’s had indifferent games or periods..yes but his flaws are fixable over time.
I’d get Coquelin in for a game or two to sit with Song and release Arteta further forward, just to give Ramsey a break.
i think anyone that gets on ramseys back is a little silly obviously. for me its just frustrating that before the injury i thought he was one of our better strikers of the ball and now he seems to have developed rosickyitis. its beyond baffling that players who have been kicking a ball all there life dont know how to shoot? what the hell do they do in training, just passing drills? cos they sure as hell aint doing whipping the ball into the 6 yard box drills.
and is no one but van able to put a corner in? surely you want your top scorer in the box?
so many little obvious things like shavin being tried in his preferred position as fran said is what is turning fans on wenger. at least try it. yes he can be sloppy and perhaps thats why he might not be played there but theres no doubting his ability to think outside the box and spot a pass. he is the only one bar wilshere in that position and maybe rosicky who has that ability but we waste him on the wings.
so id love to know exactly why cos we have cover for the wings. walcott, ox, tony and ohh my(gevinho lol. wonder what hed look like bald), gibbs even if we really wanted to. id say he was more adept at taking on players and putting a cross in more so than walcott. im sure coq or yennaris could play on the wings also. so whats stopping him putting shavin in his best position? the board? come on.
Ramsey is a fantastic player but i think right now hes sub standard for arsenal. I always had a feeling ramsey isnt performing effectively and during the past few games i noticed that ramsey hardly ever makes a forward pass, forget about vision, he passes to the most obvious person n where he goes after, i dont have a clue.
now lets get one thing clear, what position does ramsey play? CAM? if i’m not wrong thats our “go to guy” position, hes supposed to be playing 1-2’s with team mates, playing ppl through, playing himself through, but time and time again he acts like a center midfielder (maybe even defensive mid that cant tackle), one that doesnt take any initiative at that.
so maybe his passing is at most decent but then again he doesnt have the vision to use it, he has to fall back on passing back or sideways. hes not fast or strong, he cant finish. dont get me wrong but hes not what we need. i imagine him to fit that lampard mould, but right now he cant even claim that.
Dont forget that CAM is central to the success of our formation, even more so when walcott cant dribble,pass or take a decent first touch. walcott needs to be played through in acres of space clear on goal, not out wide to the corner flag.
it is CAM job to create space for the front 3 n take the initiative to put some one through. CAM is very demanding position and ramsey is not satisfy the requirements for someone in this position. lets not forget that VP is arguably the best striker in the world right now n ramsey still hasnt been able to make the most of that.
Van persie is the tray carrying these mugs.
Absolutely agree with Sweeper. But Ramsey is not alone in the crossfield and back passing. It happens all the time throughout the team. Compare the Villa game in the first half and the beginning of the second. We played with pace and with penetration at the start of the second, Ramsey and Rosicky were especially good at one touch passing and running into space to continue the attack. All too may times now we (and by we I mean the whole team) seem to have lost sight of the fact that if you don’t get numbers quickly into the opponents half you ultimately get pushed back.
Please cut the crap. Who doesn’t see what is happening. We are sick and tired of mediocre performances. The role that Ramsey is assuming is too big for him that he can’t learn a few things from Cesc. He needs to be taught about game planning and being able to release the wingers.
Walcott has been quiet this season because Arsenal doesn’t have an anchor man. One who will put in those crosses for him. And for sure that person isn’t Ramsey. Just ask yourself what will happen when Jack is fit and back to his usual form like the game against barcelona when he was man of the match. Let me remind you that Jack knew what to do because he uses his brains when his on the pitch. He realised how they were closing down Cesc very first and he took his chance of sprinting in with the ball.
In conclusion we need midfielders that can plan for a game not Ramsey.
Nice call for perspective Walter!
Ramsey will become world-class sooner rather than later! Once he relaxes and becomes totally comfortable with playing our style of game those criticising him will eat a large portion of Humble pie! Let’s not forget that this young man is the Captain, no less, of his national side and is the heartbeat of their resurgence – even more influential than Monkey-boy Bale!
Aaron is a different player from Scholes and Lampard in that he is a true box-to-box player. He has more stamina and pace than those two and has the basics to become a phenomenal creator and scorer of goals. He will eventually be able to do everything that a midfielder can do in one package!
I agree with some of the previous comments, we need more composed and clever play-making in the middle of the park and we have 4 players that should be doing that instead of Aaron at the moment to give him a rest; those players being Arteta, Rosicky, Arshavin and Benayoun. I would like to see Arteta and Rosicky with Song or Coquelin (to give Song a rest) in the middle next match!
@Mickess,
I totally agree with your observations!
Very simply- Ramsey has been very disappointing this season. I believe he is one of the reasons for our very bad situation. He just has not delivered.
Aaron unnecessarily slows the game, get into scoring positions but can not score, have the highest % of back passes, runs everywhere in the field , leaving gaps in the mid. He is not yet ripe for a commanding position in a team like arsenal. Still has got a lot to learn….great potential though
I have to disagree on this kind of statistics as they are completely misleading in my opinion.
Take the England team for example.All this players that you mention if i have to believe on this statistics England would have done wonders.But that is not the case and every time they play for England they are below par and booed by the english fans.
Each and every player you mention they are surrounded by the different team mates and the performance-tackles-assists-goals you cannot single it out to an individual player.The others role is completely forgotten.
The combination of Hleb,Cesc,Flamini it was one of the wondwerfull midfield.Hleb when left to Barca was a shadow of himself.Not that a midfield of Barca is below par.
My take on Ramsey is a good player along Walckot and Chamberlain.The problem is “THIS IS ARSENAL FIRST TEAM ” not a pitch to learn or hone your skills.Fans are paying top dollar and they want to see finished article.Period.
To me is completely wrong to single out Ramsey or other individual youth.Yes! one will say the likes of Arshavin and Rosiscki suppose to step up,unfortunately since the Russian has lost it Wenger stubborness for not ship him out and replace him adquately villify the youth.
Like Wilshere they suppose to be loaned in the premiership till they are deemed to play for the first team.
To come in here today and excuse them saying ” Ohhh they are still young “it is not excusable.
We are where we are deservedly and as much as hate to admit it the Spuds currently had a good combination and i will swap they are team wholehearted.
The AAA or the partial AAA have arrived. I think anyway.
Arvind
It is just my honest opinion if you refer to me.Just put your opinion .If you have one.
I am a big Ramsey fan and – in a related opinion – have similar strong positive views of Theo. I think what is happening is that one of the basic questions ANY manager must ask himself at the beginning of the season and at one or two other milestone dates is – “Where will goals come from?”.
Now the obvious answer of RVP is only 30% – 40% of what is required to answer that critical strategic question. Continuing the self inquiry – I think many supporters / observers / pundits had the equally strong impression that – while Theo and Rambo were clearly very good players on the way up – they were not (yet) seasoned enough to carry a team with top 4 / Championship ambitions.
None of this inures to a criticism of where they are in relative merits with their peer group nor how well they will perform as a “role” player providing service, maintaining possession, running the field, and stretching defenses. No – the original question always gets reduced to a single critical element that certain players bring with them and that is they have the cutting edge in and around the goal. And that comes with being a top tier player – one that we have stated time and time again that we can not afford (or can only afford 1 – RVP).
While I love the approach you guys at Untold take, and am a frequent visitor to the site, let’s please look at a different peer group for Aaron – Aguerro / Silva, Rooney, Matos, Van derVaart / Modric, Lampard, Dempsey, Helguson, …. you get the idea. Goal production in that advanced position is an absolute requirement in a 4-3-3 and while Aaron is rounding into a fine 21 year old midfielder, many predicted he (and Theo) to have almost no goal contribution to that strategic question. We / they were all hoping that we were wrong and AW was betting on a good horse, but at this stage of the season the critics were right and AW made a bad bet.
So the supporters, observers, pundits etc. have (perhaps rightly in content, not venom) been all too frustrated that a) The honest answer to that strategic question should have been a clarion call for a key player or 2 in order to line up with our league ambition and b) Ramsey (and Theo) are not producing the “goods” – confirming fears that they would fail to deliver (goal production) at a level that is needed for top of the table results.
Walter and all,
What we should bear in mind is that no one is actually criticising Aaron, what we’re saying is that, at this point in time, he is not good enough to anchor our midfield. You can compare the stats all you want, but that is the fact. It seems Walter’s getting a little sentimental, just like Wenger, which fact makes him not see what the rest of us have been seeing for ages. He(Wenger) eventually sees, but it’ll have been too late by then. Denilson, Almunia, Bendtner, Senderos, the whole damned Project Youth. We all knew from wayback, that they were not good but Wenger stuck to them until things have gotten so bad.
I like Wenger, and i like Aaron, but truth must be told. Our team is very mediocre right now and has been so for long, all because Wenger turned a blind eye and deaf ear to the obvious. The team has been spiralling down since 2006(and that was a solid team), Flamini, Hleb, Adebayor, Gilberto, Eduardo, Henry, quality players all, they left since then, we have not managed to replace them with equal quality and we’ve been punching above our weight since then, giving us false hopes. Now we’re getting our true worth due to our serial neglect. This is actually beyond Ramsey, it rests on the shoulders of Wenger and the board.
Sad to say that there’s no Europe for us next season and who knows for how many reasons more. I remain a true gooner.
If you read some “fans” and what they say about Aaron on the internet then I can say that they are very much critisizing him.
If they even bring in the name of Speed well then it goes beyond critisicing in my opinion.
It gets disgusting…
@9jagunnerdoc
Project youth? You make it sound like Arsene Wenger invented this fabled youth system and introduced into Arsensal FC.
Adams, Keown, Roecastle, Davis, Thomas, Quinn, Cole how far back in time do we have to go to appreciate and accept “Project Youth” has always been the Arsenal way and it has served them pretty well down the years.
Statistics is like a bikini what is reveals is exciting but what it conceal is essential. Ramsey is a good potential for the attacking midfield in the first team, but in a team like Arsenal where the playmaking is dependent on a player who lacks fast decision making on counter attack, cannot make decisive passes, cannot score special goals.
I like Aaron as a person, doesn’t talk too much, humble and strong character but he is still learning his trade at the detriment of the team system. Although, I don’t blame him much, the buck stop at the table of Wenger who can buy a proving playmaker or deployed the better Rosicky in his place. Ramsey has been costing us many point through his ineffective play and if not taken will cost Arsenal the whole season.
Rambo is delivering, its our boys on the wings that have let us down – Arshavin/Walcott.
Walcott all things considered has no excuse, I’ve never seen a player get into so many good positions just to let it fall apart.
Ramsay will be a very good player. For the last two months Arsenal have played against teams which defend deep without our normal overlapping fullbacks (or in my mind no full backs with ability to play a modern full back role). This has allowed teams to double up on our wingers which has led to few passing opportunities to the wingers as they are marked by both a full back and a midfield or centre defensive player.When he plays for Wales he has Bale and Bellamy to find – which he often does with excellent passes as they have overlapping fullbacks to spread the defence.
Arsenal with Fabregas and Nasri et al were unable to score against Man City last year at the Emirates when they put up a defence of 5 in midfield and 4 in the backline as Bolton did last night. Maybe the Man City defence was better than Bolton but we need to score early against this type of defensive set up or frustration sets in as it did last night. Ramsay is playing in a side with little or no confidence and when they fail to score early the “writing is on the wall”.
For those who like to get on his back, please remember that SAF was very keen to sign him and Giggs is a personal friend – it would be ironic if he went there and came back for the next few years to haunt us. ManU play always in a way which makes finding overlapping players easy as they play mostly on the break and SAF knows how good Ramsay is likely to become in a confident side.
i mean yesterday i was just left thinking what is Ramsey’s role in this squad? if its to support the main striker then Arshavin , park and even Ox is better. if its the play-maker we can manage but then of all players there right now rosicky is the most suitable and then definitely it cant be DMF or wings, so what is his role .sometimes as a player u just need to sit back and watch the game and think out a new move, see things clearer,develop ur thinking pattern as to what to do in some situations believe me it all works but when u play week in week out at a time when ur meant to be learning add to that ur expected to fill the boots of an extra-terrestial player (fabregas) then education goes out the window and u rely only on talents and believe me talent is never enough, u need to build ur mental capacity. u see i dont know why or how everybody will be wrong and only wenger will be right even after tests, analysis and practical.it really bewilds me. for arsenals sake hope we find a solution soon. love from Nigeria.
@ITG,
Spot on analysis and the basis of our on-field problems for several seasons now!!!!
Indeed like someone else said the team was build around Fabregas and it was too short to change the system this season as it was half august before it was clear that he was gone.
and I stay with my criticising of Fabregas despite “all he has done” he has betrayed us.
For any human begin a contract=a contract
It is not because you are Cesc Fabregas that you can wipe your arse with it
really? U mean to say fab told every1 that he was leaving in 2nd week of august?
Did january knocked ur screws loose?
u r right though. If fans want to blame some1 they should blame arsene wenger for throwing him in the deep end early.
Ramsey don’t deserve abuse. He gives everything whenever he puts on arsenal jersey.
Critic,
just suppose Barcelona suddenly didn’t want to pay the money? Then what? should we already have bought a new player with the Cesc money that wouldn’t have been there?
If one can believe the reports from Germany Arsenal did make a massive bid for Gotze but Dortmund didn’t let him go for 30M.
Lille asked 40M in the summer for Hazard. (if we can believe the newspapers but this was also the price that was mentioned in the Belgian newspapers who in general try to not sell too much bullshit for the time being…)
Of course it would have been great to have both Cesc and Gotze/Hazard at Arsenal but who would pay for it.
and let us not forget that Barcelona was allowed to pay the money in bits and pieces so it wasn’t there on August 1st, 15 or whenever.
I strongly disagree with allowing Barcelona this to be honest but that is another matter
About Barcelona: they couldn’t win their last 3 games. The Fabregas influence. 😉
By ur definition Walter, the whole Arsenal squad are despicable then,because none of them have seen out their contracts at their previous clubs.
Yes Alex. Not just you but a lot of new posters all of a sudden after a bad result for us. That is the only thing I do not understand. Again of course I am no one to say who can post when, but it is always this way. If you read message boards after a loss you would think we have the worst possible team that could ever be played. Specially after the ManU game.
Again, who are we to excuse anything by anyone? If the manager thinks someone is good enough to play I just think he must have a reason for thinking so and back it. No point in calling people stubborn or foolish on message boards. That’s just my opinion.
You are going to get this up and down with young players. Its part of the learning process. Yes it is frustrating but who can we buy? With our budget? Maybe we can buy one big player..in some one position? But where? Up front to help RVP? In the middle to playmake? Gary Cahill at CB? Its all a big coin toss. And what if it goes wrong?
I’m just saying, going with young talent is an acceptable risk if your aim is to finish top 4 or higher and win a cup if lucky. Look at Wilshere or Szczesny. If they don’t play would we even know how good they are?
Yes Ramsey is lacking composure right now in the final third and whether he will ever get that; I don’t know really. But he is young and deserves the benefit of the doubt. Should AW buy someone? What when Wilshere comes back? Do you bench Ramsey then? Are you ready to let him leave? Maybe Thomas Eisfeld will help out in a month or two.
Its all about balance and IMHO no one does it better than Le Boss.
Again if you are genuine then I apologize..its just that I have seen numerous such posts over the years and have become a little distrustful of fans. Its just an opinion, so feel free to ignore me and post.
Aaron Ramsey isn’t good enough to be a first team player for a big club like Arsenal, and I for one can’t wait for Diaby to be back(unlike Ramsey he dribblestorward, Ramsey’s first instinct is dribble backwards…and they all lose the ball easily only problem is we have been conceeding from Aaron’s gaffes). Ramsey has a great work rate….but i hate his decision making, I don’t support Aaron Ramsey, I support Arsenal, Aaron Ramsey isn’t good enough to play regularly for us and that has nothing to do with his age, I am not comparing him to Cesc but to Jack, he is right now older than Jack, but even you know that Ramsey will drop to the bench if Jack comes back the way You are hoping he comes back, as for Frank Lampard, I am not english so I have shared the same tot with other Non English EPL fans, Frank Lampard is grossly overrated
funny Diaby suffered a horrific injury in his first season while still trying to adapt his football to a different football style, but nobody mentions that, but you give Ramsey that leeway cos he is british? The painfull part is that I know wenger doesn’t want to buy another creative midfielder so as not to halt his development, and he has been consistently inconsistent, lacking the quality to be an arsenal first teamer
@Walter:
Yes, Barca is performing relatively badly this season… Karma, I think 🙂
Basil,
If you can give me an example on how Arsenal have conducted themselves like Barcelona did in the last years with Cesc feel free to give it.
If all parties agree with no pressure then there is nothing wrong when you want to cancel a contract. But with the Arsenal/Cesc/Barcelona transfer there was an enormous amount of pressure being put on Cesc by Barcelona and then Cesc put pressure on Arsenal. Who at the end had no option to sell him on a very low price.
Both Barcelona and Cesc where virtually putting a knife on the throat of Arsenal to let him go. Much helped by the press. The press that should have been saying that Barcelona was disgraceful in their behaviour did all they could to help Cesc out.
I think the silent way Arsenal conducted themselves when the transfer was done speaks volumes if you would care to listen.
When TH left as a captain he got the chance to say goodbye to the fans on Arsenal.com.
Cesc wanted to do the same but Arsenal said NO. This was according to me down to the fact that Arsenal and Arsène Wenger felt betrayed by Cesc and didn’t want to give him that last moment like we gave TH.
Rightfully so in both cases.
I wish Cesc all the best in his personal life and wish him all the happiness he wants and a good health. But on the field I love to see him lose games. Or in Barcelona’s case better said I love to see him not winning games. 😉
Arvind,
Yes, should have purchased up front, a clinical striker, with RvP, to ensure against RvP’s getting a knock, to help create a top-4 finish. Have you noticed the massive drop-off in goal scoring after RvP? And if he should go down? And you really are saying how can any mere mortal say anything when our all-knowing betters know best. Are you serious?
@Walter
Well, Barcelona has it coming this season… They’ve lost La Liga already, and everyone knows that the CL can’t be won by anyone two years in a row…
I can only hope that at some point in my lifetime I’ll be able see an Arsenal v Barca CL final… The two best footballing sides in the world. Maybe it will happen someday.
Oh, and by the way, if it does happen (on a fair playing field), I would have my money on Arsenal. Think I’m lying about that? Fine, go ahead… throw in your cash, you media-controlled automatons 🙂
@bob: Yes that’d be nice for sure. The only thing though is that there’d be people who would have said we need to have replaced Cesc with a big money buy. And some think Mertesacker is a dreadful defender so we need the next Maldini, whoever that is.
Maybe we need all of those. Except we probably cant buy all of those. My honest feel is that we can probably buy ONE big player.. somewhere.. who costs say 25-30 million. That’s without selling. And that’d be it. Which one is open to debate.
Torres went for 50 million pounds. Proven world class striker. Isn’t quite working out for him though. SO I’m saying… How much of a risk can AFC take? Is it an ‘acceptable’ risk? I dont know…so I don’t speculate. And leave it to those whom I hope know. Coz they have much much more to lose than us…I do believe you’d agree at least on that last point. Cheers
Walter,
“Who at the end had no option to sell him on a very low price.” I agree that Cesc should have kept to his contract. Among the many still mysterious aspects of the transactions is this quotation from you. There were other options. (A) To refuse Barca/Cesc’s demand to leave (B) to demand equal (or near equal) quality players in return (a choice of Barca players) (C) to take formal action against Barca for tippy-tapping (D) to demand only max 50/min 30 in return and (E) to demand that any return come ALL AT ONCE. None of this was done. So if there was “no option” but to sell him on a very low price, how did this come about? How was it allowed? What came about was not in the interests of AFC. Was allowing him to leave this way in August the result of a promise made the previous season when he also wanted to leave, to give us one more season? That’s my working hypothesis and where my investigation would begin. Cesc’s leaving continues to be a huge blow. But the terms on which he left have not yet been explained. In a sense, having allowed that contract – and ostensibly the leverage it would give the contract holder, AFC – to turn to dust requires principled explanation. AFC may have had “no option” but then WHY? An answer lies, imo, in a promise made by AW or AFC to Cesc & agent Dein the Lesser, the previous year, to let Cesc go after the next year (this past August), and perhaps something to do with our failure to win any of the 4 Cups. I will be told to ffs get over it, but, like you, I have not, especially because the toxic ramifications of that terrible final deal are still very much at play in our current malaise.
Arvind,
Do you really think that those who know do not speculate (and often badly) on player decisions? Nothing is 100% sure and there is clearly some part speculation on what would fit or not in a team game. So to abdicate principled and thoughtful analysis is a choice you are willing to make, but not one that others are willing to make. As for Tevez, is he still not world class? You say that well, lads, did that one work out? However, have you analyzed why it has not worked out? Would you not want that talent on your side? Do we not have the advertised 35 million dollar war chest? Should we not have had 30-50 million at once for the Cesc trade to have added to that war chest? Do only your touted betters know why the Cesc deal was allowed to be transacted at so far below market rate when we held that contract and would not play hard ball against his predatory agent, Dein the Lesser? Was that a football deal that your touted betters (or is it bettors) were well left to transact because they are so in the know? Information is king and those betters of yours in the know have a monopoly of information – good, bad and ugly – and share none of it. But, from what I’ve seen on UA – and I exclude myself – there are some first-rate football minds hereabouts who, with access to the real information, indeed to any information, would and could have made better choices on behalf of our team than the ones we are currently being forced to endure.
Bob like you i believe cesc was given an assurance by Wenger that he could leave after giving us one more season.I think Arsene was hoping that a successful season would persuade cesc to stay but alas it was not to be.The Board could have insisted that he stay like Spurs did with Modric, but they didn’t.I don’t understand why we didn’t insist on cash plus players;or why Barca were not told to stump up all the cash or cesc would be made avaliable on the open market.All i know is we got a sh**te deal and it has well and truly messed up this season.
@bob: I honestly don’t have answers to any of your questions. We have money..yes; probably a lot if you compare it to a ‘non top 6’ club in England. How much? 30? 50? I don’t know. However the true figure is probably somewhere between 20 and 30 million. No, I don’t have data to prove that.
There’s a lot of other rhetorical questions you ask; to which I again have no answer. My only question is..Do you have those answers? Factually I mean. Do we know for sure why Cesc left? Not really. All we really know is:
a) Cesc wanted to leave
b) AW is a gentleman who will stick to his word
The rest is speculation of which each bit has a certain probability of being accurate or non accurate. So for e.g
— A pattern of Howard Webb messing up = He is a ManU fan = High
probability
— Darren Dein out to screw Arsenal = High probability
— Arsenal have money to buy big players. If its btw 20 and 30 = High probability
None of that though is a fact. Like Suarez calling Evra ‘negrito’. That’s where I come from.
Tevez? World class? Yes. Do I want him at Arsenal? If my opinion counted? Hell no. And really…why would Sir Tevez come to Arsenal? Could we blow a ton of cash on his astronomical wages and deal with Kia Joobrachian etc etc? Do morals come into it at some point? Maybe. Did that come into it at some time when Cesc left? Maybe. Too many maybe’s for me to draw any kind of conclusion.
So if despite that reasoning, you feel I abdicate myself from thinking, we can agree to disagree as before.
It’s not that I see you abdicate thinking, but it’s your saying that the big thinking on decisions is best left to those who have a monopoly on the facts (that you and I don’t have access to) and who have speculated and must speculate (and done a demonstrably poor to average job on several key points), that results in an abdication of thinking. Clearly you are thoughtful; but the upshot of your “who are we to ____” advice is for any who take that advice to abdicate thinking.
As for Tevez, I don’t want him specifically either. But the need for an quality striker (and/or creative midfielder) that would cost more than 8million (or a bargain find by the fabled worldwide scouting network) is a serious and glaring need. Agreed that we don’t know if it’s 20M or 50M, but you have no basis to stipulate any probability thereabouts and then use it as fact. Nor do I. We are kept from any of that info, and for good reasons in this cut throat marketplace. Still, none of that cancels out the dire need, right now, to have righted the ship, secured a top 4 finish, and the many major results that either flow from or would be lost if we do not attain a top 4 finish. To have spent multi-millions on a possible world class or thereabouts difference maker now, would save us more millions and prestige and attraction to other quality players, and increase the likelihood of RvP staying ALL so much more. I find your arguments against a big expenditure in the present moment (a context of crisis) to be reckless. Reckless in its gamble on disastrous results; as opposed to not spending big and being left with high principles (which I don’t pooh-pooh) and a badly declining team that is suffering from several major self-inflicted wounds. That said, I’m a Gooner for Life, and care.
Cheers Bob. I do understand where you’re coming from. Sure we can all give our suggestions and maybe even draft a well thought out letter to AFC. Maybe they’d read and think again. Beyond that.. we really can’t do much IMHO. So..more than a ‘who are we to advise…’ it is a ‘do we really know enough to advise?’ and ‘are our goals(all well documented) in perfect alignment with that of the board?’ and ‘do we know this for a fact?’ .If we do then I agree 100% with you.
If we or anyone on this board don’t..then it’s hard for me to accept the ‘we the fans should be heard’ line. No I don’t mean that sarcastically, since it does sound that way..but more from a ‘Is there really, in the cold light of day any point?’. We can discuss, we can argue, we can fill reams but as doubtlessly you know and have acknowledged in other contexts… its just that and nothing more.
Reckless? Again.. that’s subjective. For all you know the AFC board might have on its goal list – 1. Stay competitive 2. Don’t spend a Net of more than 20 million a year 3. Qualify for the CL somehow at least once in 2 years. If those are (and I am not saying they are) the board’s goals..surely blowing cash on an ace CF would be reckless instead?
Again..I don’t know what the facts are and hence the stand I take. I just say…if we spend 30M on someone (Who by the way? but that’s a tangent) how big a risk is that? No one knows that except a board as they will measure that risk against the goals that they have set that year.
I have no doubt you’re a Gooner for life either; I’m not saying you’re any strain of AAA. It’s just a differing opinion. Here’s hoping we beat Blackburn tomorrow..somehow. We need 3 points…badly.
Arvind
We are all fans that love Arsenal to bit.We have many things that keeps us in common and surely you know it.When someone gives his/her opinion there is no need to give names as it does not help in anyway.I put my opinion because i believe in it and someone can give any names he/she want and certainly i would not change because basically you are not answering the matter in question.It is immature in my opinion.
Wether we like it or not we live by Wenger decision on football matters.As a fan to (question-disagree-agree)-Arsene decision are every gunner right.Have they got an impact or not ?Live it for another day.When i see stuborness on certain decision to me as a fan i say it as i see it.Nothing more an nothing less.
When a player like the russian was on decline for a season long and continue to be the case……Hellooooo ?I am GRRRRRR ANGRY and rightly to be so and vent my opinion.
Do i have the right to say has to be replaced by X or Y ?
Hell no! what do i know rather than to be a fan.Few video clips of a player or a jorno article are not for me.One thing for sure is that as a fan i expect something has to be done.This something is related to buy a player.Again as a fan other than endless speculation about finances what do i know ? Nothing.
From time to time either a member of the board or the manager they say there is money to spend if is required.To me based only on this fact i do expect some addition or change in the team.Arsene in all this is subject to be cheered or booed.Simple
Ramsey is complete class, in a couple years time, he will be one of the best MFs out there.
He has looked fatigues in some games lately , as he has been over played, due to injurues to our other MFs, this over playing does worry me a bit after what has happened to Jack.
However, having a go at Ramsey, just confirms my opinion that some of our fans number amongst the most ignorant and moronic in football. Their lives are guided by obsessive needs for bragging rights and trophies rather than reality. If you go to forums such as Online Gooner, regarding the genuine Arsenal fans on there which may be a minority,some appear near suicidal
Arsenal fans and Ramsey supporters should see the match btw Arsenal and Blackburn. The midfield was very mobile, accurate and precise range of passing, and cohesive play without Ramsey.
Hence our midfield need Rosicky, does not dabbling on the ball unnecessarily, fast and precise passes.