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July 2021

Would it matter if Tottenham ended up above us?

By Tony Attwood

Here’s the league table – you probably know if off by heart anyway, but just so we have it on the page while considering the final games, here it is…

Man Untidy
The Tiny Totts

Now let’s consider what happens next…

CHELSEA – 65 points 

Man United (a), defeat

Tottenham (h), draw

Aston Villa (a), win

Everton (h) win

CHELSEA – 72 points

ARSENAL – 67 points

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Wigan (h); win

Newcastle (a) win

ARSENAL – 73 points

TOTTENHAM – 65 points

Southampton (h), win

Chelsea (a), draw

Stoke (a),win

Sunderland (h) win

TOTTENHAM – 75 points

It is a scenario which gives us fourth place but at the expense of Tottenham ending above us.  Would that really matter?

The thought sent me back to a table I did at this time last year on the relative performances of the three London clubs over the years.  Here it is:

Year Arsenal Chelsea Tottenham Top London
2012 3 6 4 Arsenal
2011 4 2 5 Chelsea
2010 3 1 4 Chelsea
2009 4 3 8 Chelsea
2008 3 2 11 Chelsea
2007 4 2 5 Chelsea
2006 4 1 5 Chelsea
2005 2 1 9 Chelsea
2004 1 2 14 Arsenal
2003 2 4 10 Arsenal
2002 1 6 9 Arsenal
2001 2 6 12 Arsenal
2000 2 5 10 Arsenal
1999 2 3 11 Arsenal
1998 1 4 14 Arsenal
1997 3 6 10 Arsenal
1996 5 11 8 Arsenal
1995 12 11 7 Tottenham
1994 4 14 15 Arsenal
1993 10 11 8 Tottenham

You can see the two seasons I have highlighted with Tottenham becoming the top London club – 1995 and 1993.

In 1995 we had Stewart Houston as manager after George Graham had been removed because of the transfer dealings.  In 1993 George Graham was still manager.

It is interesting that we have to go back to George Graham – our last successful manager before Arsène Wenger to find a time when Tottenham actually reached a higher position than we did.  It makes me wonder a little about the “Give us our Arsenal back” and what it actually means.

Anyway, in my imaginary scenario at the top of the page we get the required fourth place, but only at the expense of Tottenham coming above us for the first time in 18 years.  Would it matter?

Well, it would be annoying, yes.  But I think I would sooner take that fourth spot and let Tottenham have their wild celebrations of delirium over an issue that they have not been able to celebrate for 18 years.

After all, let’s be fair.

Recent posts

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151 comments to Would it matter if Tottenham ended up above us?

  • bjtgooner


    Are the calculations correct – the Spuds have 65 points having already played Southampton – two wins and a draw would take them to 72 points?

  • Øivind Lundberg

    Im a Spurs fan, and just want to point out that your Math is poor.
    Spurs has 65 Points after the Southampton game…


    If you win both your reminding games, Spurs will need to beat Chelsea to end above you… However. Chelsea might win today, and wigan won at Emirates last year, and Newcastle away will not be a walk in the park…

  • Wayne

    Tony, your points calculation for The Tiny Totts is incorrect. (shld be 72 not 75) Arsenal will still finish above Totts.

  • Nas

    U done ur sums wrong, spurs are on 65 points, if they win there last 3 games they can only get 74 points

  • Gf60

    Really Tony. Of course it would matter. My stomach heaves at even thinking about it. Had enough of that back in the 50s and 60s. It was after all 10 years before we could hold our heads high again. The spuds make wonderful proctologists, looking up the almighty arse; never please, looking down at our screaming throats!

  • Mattuso

    The league table above is after spuds played saints. Based on your predictions spuds would finish behind us on 72 points and very likely behind chelsea on goal difference.

  • James

    bjtgooner is correct, these results would lead to Spurs finishing on 72pts, placed 5th, behind Chelsea on goal difference.

    In any case, i’d take finishing 4th with Spurs 3rd. In fact, i’d consider that a decent outcome, if it stops Chelsea from attracting top level talent such as Falcao this Summer.

    I could take finishing below Spurs for one season, if we’re still in the Champions League places and do go ahead with some top signings in the upcoming transfer window.

  • Gonnerjoe

    You need to change spurs calculations your given them the points from a Southampton twice.

  • Gooner S

    Tottenham have 3 games left and are on 65 points. Maximum 74.

    So **if** arsenal win the last two games they know that one of, or both of, Chelsea and Tottenham will drop points as they play one another. So a draw is the best result for us between those two, especiallly if Chelsea’s result goes our way today, next best is a Chelsea win.

    Yes it does matter 🙂

  • AJ

    You’re wrong. They’d be on 72 points with the results you’ve calculated. So we’d be 3rd, Chelsea 4th and spurs missing out on top 4 by GD

  • Blacksheep63

    Yes it matters and your maths is out, as those above have pointed out. I put it down to age 😉 lol

  • alex

    Good article.However you ruin it by giving 3 point extra for
    The spuds.They are on 65 after the Sotton win.
    I have the filling we are going to spoil it by ourselves
    Drawing at Wigan . Hope I am wrong but I don’t see us scoring.

  • Mick

    Alex we are playing Wigan at the Emirates not at Wigan. If you saw Wigan’s defence yesterday on MOTD it was a shambles so you surely would expect us to score even if we play really poorly.

  • Gooner S

    **if** we beat Wigan the game that could be a real belter on the last day is Newcastle away because both of us might need the 3 points. Newcastle are not safe at the bottom.

  • elkieno

    Thank god you made a mistake Tony, you must be chuffed as much as me!!

  • Steve

    Chelsea are on 65 points after today they could be on 65, 66 or 68 points.
    On wed they play spurs on 65 points after that game Chelsea could be on 65, 66,67, 68, 69, 70 or 71 points. Spurs after that game could be on 65, 66 or 68 points.

    At the weekend Spurs play stoke, spurs on 65, 66 or 68 points could finish the weekend on 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 or 71 points.

    Spurs & Chelsea can not both be on 71 points at the end of the weekend as they play each-other so one of them will be on a maximum of 71 and the other 68. Chelsea to lose and draw would put them on 66 points with a home game with Everton to play. Spurs a draw and a win will put them on 69 points with a home game to Sunderland to play.

    Oh sod it Arsenal need to win both games and we will see at the final whistle of the last game where we are…..

    Another thing to look at is what will Newcastle need to do against Arsenal they may need a win to stay up!!!

  • Mandy Dodd

    Does anyone know our ref for Wigan? Could be important

  • Anthony Berman

    Your maths is wrong. Spurs maximum total is 74 for the season.
    If Chelsea drop points at Old Trafford today and we beat Wigan and Newcastle then we will finish in the top 4 irrespective of the Chelsea v Spurs game next Wedneday. That game will decide who joins us in the top 4. The nightmare scenario for Arsenal is that Chelsea beat Man U today but exhausted by their efforts (they played F C Basel on Thursday and will have a day’s less rest than Spurs), they get turned over by Tottenham on Wednesday night. If that happens we will probably finish 5th. We need a massive favour from Man U today and here’s one Gooner who will be hoping that a certain Dutch striker plays a blinder and scores when he wants. Ant the Gooner

  • I would sign any paper on which we get six points from remaining games while Chavs and Spuds take seven each. That would give us third spot and, what’s more important, relief from not taking that ugly Champions’ League play-off. One more Udinese would kill me and I’m only 30.

    @Mick – if you take a look at our home and away form, perhaps playing Wigan home isn’t our advantage. We won last five away matches in all competitions (Bayern, Swansea, WBA, Fulham, QPR) while at home we failed to win in last two occasions (Everton, FAnchester United).

  • alex

    Mick.I would love to be positive. By looking our striking not glorious.Look at Podolski.This chap is invisible for most of the game.Just hope.

  • John

    It absolutely matters. Having said that I have more respect for Spurs than for Chelsea.if it was the choice between Chelsea or Spurs for the top 4 I’d choose Spurs. Us 5th would be the nightmare scenario.

  • Gunner

    If Chelski beat Spurs then a win and a draw from our last 2 games would seal superiority for us against the spuds. If Chelsea and Spurs draw, and then spurs win there other games then we’ll need to beat both teams to finish above them

  • sleepinggiant

    It is interesting that we have to go back to George Graham – our last successful manager before Arsène Wenger to find a time when Tottenham actually reached a higher position than we did. It makes me wonder a little about the “Give us our Arsenal back” and what it actually means

    Sorry, you don’t get away with that snide disparaging rubbish. I have nothing to do with the ‘we want our Arsenale back campaign’, but the season when Spuds finished above us was the year we achieved the glorious, awe-inspiring feat of winning the cup double, for those fans who don’t remember it.

    Under George, we were a team that considered a 4th spot a poor show for a season. We were man enough to call a spade a spade and failure was failure. 1st in the league was all that mattered, along with winning a cup. When that was out of reach, the cups quite rightly took priority. Anything else, well you accept it and move on, but nobody dared to pretend it was good enough (unlike todays politician-like yes-men). If there is an Arsenal I want back, that is it. Yes the team was declining, but the magnificent fighting spirit of the club under George gave us what was one of the greatest years the club has enjoyed.

    The same things matter now to real fans.

    You can put all the spin, smokescreens and excuses you want for our current failures (because that’s what they are). Nobody minds. Its up to you. Everyone knows you keep your stated ambitions of the club low because of your infatuation for fear of showing up the limitations of somebody who is a good footballing man. Sadly this appears to have put blinkers on what is, I have no doubt, your affection for the club, if not fellow fans (witness the riseable AAA nonsense). But that’s is absolutely up to you – everybody has their way of supporting the club. I would happily discuss this over a pint with you or anyone who shares your opinion without getting in any heated. That’s football and we all love it.

    But don’t you dare rubbish one of the greatest achievements in my wonderful club’s history (1993 was the year when we became the first team IN HITORY to win the cup double, don’t ever forget it) to lend a false credibility to your story. 1993=wonderful year for the Arsenal. Last 8 years = various shades of non-event for Arsenal

    We all want the club to pull its finger out and improve, but you don’t get away without a scolding for mocking one of the clubs greatest achievements.

  • Bulwarker

    One possibility you’ve missed. If Chelsea win today and Spurs win on Wednesday then that puts Spurs and Chelsea on 68points with Arsenal on 67 points with 36 games a piece.

  • John

    Abit worried about the Newcastle game there will be afew twists I think and If we miss out then we only have oursleves to blame.

    I hope we can get two 1 nil wins and Spuds v Chel draw mid week. I dont care if Spurs finish above us they probably deserve to I just dont want the board using it was an excuse to cut our tranfer kitty this summer.

    Yes the team is getting results at the minute but we need to invest otherwise will we be takenover by Spurs, Liverpool etc and will have no chance of finishing 4. Your down 20M not qualifying for CL.

    Persoanlly I believe if your going to do something do it right buy a world class striker Giroud has been good but he is a good number 2 imo. Like Falco etc go large on this we create so many chances and dont convert its beyond believe.

    Get Ceaser from OPR he can help Sczcnesy become a better keeper in years to come. Hopefully he has a cheap release clause in his contract

    Bring in Capone to challenge Arteta place we need really competition look how well Kozzer and Per are playing with Vermanlen chopping for a place same with Gibbs and Monreal etc.

    There’s zero point having 70m in the bank unless your going to use it…. football clubs should have enough to cover operationg expenses and invest what other amounts they might have.

    Lastly get rid of Arshivan, Squallaci, Denilson, Chamakh, Bendther, Park (joke of a professionals) we need to reduce this ridiculous wage bill so we can start paying the people who help the club with better money

  • SA Gunner

    Luckily your mathematics is out Tony.

    Its not ok for them to finish above us, it will never be again. St Totteringham’s day is tradition and we must at the very least uphold that.

    We need United to do us a favour and take maximum points against Chelsea today, that would turn the midweek tie into a must win for Chelsea but open up massive opportunity for us.

    Chelsea win, Spurs 4 points from being knocked out
    Chelsea draw, in our hands for third spot
    Chelsea lose, Chelsea 4 points from being knocked out

    I would take options one or two in the midweek game but as you see, it will significantly hand advantage back to us.

    Come on United!

  • SA Gunner

    Re my Chelsea win, draw, lose scenario. Im referring to the midweek game with Spurs there.

    Stressful times, but remember one thing. Nothing is certain in footy but we can draw on the fact that in this fight, we are very experienced.

  • Shard

    It would be a slight irritant because of the way the Spurs fans and the media will go on screaming that this represents a ‘power shift’. It obviously doesn’t represent anything of the sort but when have facts ever affected them.

    But, I’m more concerned by what is important for Arsenal. And for Arsenal, it is way more important to have CL football next year than it is to have so called bragging rights over Spurs. They are irrelevant as they will always be in our shadow, even if they finish above us the odd year.


    I know who you meant, and I agree with you about that, but I just had to laugh at the thought of getting Capone to challenge Arteta 🙂

  • AL

    Would be a definite irritant as Shard rightly points out, we will never hear the end of it in the media(and the AAA). But in all honesty I would take that if it means we end up playing CL football. I’m a little worried about the Newcastle game; its a fixture that has not gone our way in recent times. I have just seen a disallowed Newcastle goal that was over the line v w/ham yesterday. Had that goal been allowed they probably wouldn’t have had a lot to play for when we do meet. Hope that will still be the case though.

  • Adam

    Spurs are doing alright and I think we should acknowledge their efforts, maybe even congratulate them, as it is only going to get harder for them once the get into the re-build of White Hart lane.

    Does it matter this season if they finish above us? Not really, as long as we qualify for the champions league at the expense of Chelsea.

    In some weird fashion it may inspire us to do better, but we really need to be looking at the top spot, not at what Spurs are doing.

    They will struggle soon. We on the other hand should be on a steady rise all the way to the top of European football.

    Hope. Direction. Goals. Ambition.


  • nicky

    Provided we qualify for the CL next term, it matters not if Spurs finish above us.
    The qualification will be of paramount importance, particularly during the Summer Window when new signings will be largely dependent on playing in the top EU competition.

  • Rupert Cook

    All that matters is CL qualification. What Spuds do is of no importance.

  • Mike T

    Think you are all under estimating just how difficult the Wigan game will be also Newcaslte irrespective of where they are going into the last game will have something to prove to their supporters following their two last home games

  • Adam

    Mike T,
    The Wigan game will be a battle for sure, especially if we get Mike Dean. I really don’t think people are underestimating Wigan or Arsenal.

    I for one know how Wigan are and also how they are treated by the officials. I have been predicting their points accumulation for some time now.

    The Sunderland Vs Stoke game tomorrow is also important for Wigan.

    Tuesday night is massive for Wigan as Swansea are safe and it may be another West Brom type performance.

    As I have stated before, Norwich & Southampton look like they are going to struggle to pick up points, so Wigan have it all to play for with a little official or unofficial help?

  • dave@spurs

    just a thought you may have missed out,if spurs win their next 3 games and chelski win 3 out of their last 4 games,if you gooners win your 2 games, do the maths, PS watch out for newcastle.

  • Ray from Norfolk, Virginia

    It does matter; ideally, we finish third, Chelski fourth, and Spuds fifth; Bale goes to Real Madrid to join Modric.. and we do not hear about them for the next ten years or so.

  • sperez

    It would be another clear sign of decline. Wenger can’t compete for trophies anymore and many fans take some solace in finishing above Spuds. Oh, the lowering of expectations… This is what you get from Wenger.
    What will it be next ? Will Mid-table finish be acceptable ?
    I won’t be surprised at all. The dumbing down is here to stay under Wenger’s complacency and his outdated methods.

  • AL

    That rednose pirate sold out, he started at the Emirates with his strongest team, but chose to use his second choice gk and left rooney on the bench. Where did it really matter to get a win, at OT or at the Emirates? Just don’t make sense.

  • AL

    Utd get their first red for the season, someone suggested they would concede a penalty today, in a meaningless game to them so it appears Webb isn’t all utd, and so it has proven to be. Fix.

  • sperez

    Wenger missed out on Mata for the sake of a few million. His indecision allowed Chelsea to buy him under his nose.
    Hey, but we have Gervinho…
    Wenger deserve every sh!t that gets thrown in his way.

  • bjtgooner

    The Manures looked dysfunctional today and weak in a number of positions – on this showing they don’t deserve to be League Champions.

    I noticed the Dutch Traitor offside at least twice – normally quite an unusual event – strange that he chose this match to be offside in.

  • Gf60

    Don’t think we can blame Webb just for a change but Rednose was quoted as saying he’d promised AW to put out his strongest side. Two faced lying bastard. If they’d tried half as much as they did against us, who knows but as for saying that was the best they could put out… puke.

  • Stevie E

    So, we need either a draw or Chelsea win, if Tottenham win we’re in 5th needing mistakes from those above us…

  • AL

    Am with you Gf60, the thing is someone(cant remember who but I could dig this up) said on this blog, yesterday, that Webb could either give a penalty or red card against utd just so it doesn’t appear he is a united rent boy(those were their words). That it happens just shows what a farce this league is, its a fix to be honest.

    I fully agree about the lack of effort on utd’s part; players like Anderson & Cleverly were handed rare starts today, Nani didn’t even make the bench. When was the last time we saw Lindegaard in goal? That was a weak utd side which ever way one wants to look at it.

  • Adam

    Lets see what Mike Dean has in store for the Chelsea Vs Tottenham game, looks like we’re getting screwed from a distance.

  • sperez

    So my comment was …moderated but I was telling the truth. I’ll try to put it ‘nicely’ then.
    Wenger deserves his own downfall. He is reponsible for creating an environment of failure and refused to change his ways when he had a chance. Now it’s too late.
    He missed out on Mata for the sake of a few million. His indecisiveness gave Chelsea the chance to sign him.
    In his first season, Mata went to Chelsea on £60k pw, the same as Gervinho at Arsenal.
    So, Chelsea has a top player and we have…Gervinho. Clearly Wenger knows best…
    Wenger’s poor transfer policy and terrible socialist wage structure are coming back to bite him.

  • Adam

    You are a boring twunt

  • AL

    I can see dean doing for spuds what probert did for Wigan yesterday; they’re shaping out the league table the way they want it. These bastards don’t have any conscience nor shame at all. I feel our boys will have to give 200% over the next 180 minutes to stand any chance. Sad but that’s just how it is.

  • Stuart


    With your 5.06pm comment, you have really illustrated how nonsensical and out of touch with reality you really are.

    If Tottenham were to finish above us, it would not be “another clear sign of decline” (compared to when or what exactly you do not make clear anyway). It would however be a sign of Tottenham improving – this is completely different to an Arsenal decline and lets face it, there was far more room for improvement at the spuds than with us.

    You and your ilk seem to get your facts twisted to mean different things. Think about what you are saying man instead of following the herd!

  • jitty

    Utd’s run of 560+ days without a red card or a penalty in the league finally ends

    Notice the huge media coverage over Ferg’s tactical genius in not conceding a red card or penalty for 1.5 years!


  • jitty


    Actually they had not conceded a red or penalty since Oct 2011 when evans was sent off in the 6-1 loss against City.

    I also predicted they would take a red in this game as the run was getting too silly.

    Notice how there has been zero media coverage about Utd’s 560 day run with no red cards or penalties in the league.

    The irony of the Real match is huge!

  • uk

    @AL, it makes perfect sense. @emirates they had the chance to go for history. Today, there was absolutely nothing to play for. Not even pride.

  • sleepinggiant

    I am only a passing reader so do not expect to be involved in all of the chatter here.

    But a couple of things:-

    Do people on this site really think that Arsenal’s fall has nothing do with constantly selling their best players, often to rivals, but is down to refereeing conspiracy? Seriously?

    Secondly – Stuart, your performance suggests you completely misunderstand the nature of sport. We are in a competition – you cannot watch Arsenal games in isolation. Or performance is measured by our position RELATIVE TO our opposition. Thus you may be partly right that Spurs have improved, but our inability to match an improved Spurs in a decline (and by the way, do you not think that the fact that worrying about finishing above a club with abut half our wage bill is a decline from Wenger’s early years?). Are you trying to have anyone believe that we have not been in steady decline since the Unbeaten year.

    I know websites, and Arsenal fansites in particular have devolved into clubs, where people of a similar mindset can drown their sorrows together. But people, you support the Arsenal!!! This is a club where 4th, 3rd or second can never be considered a success. Well that’s the opinion of a fan who does not, in his own head anyway, belong to any faction.

  • Shard


    It depends what you call history. They still had a chance today of moving towards having the widest winning margin in the league. That’s history too. But quite obviously Ferguson, despite his own proclamation of his promise, did not play his strongest team. That midfield was always going to be overrun. I didn’t expect any favours from ManU anyway.

  • Stuart

    Just out of interest, in regard to the red card ending Man Utds world record run without receiving a red card, does anyone actually think they would have received it if the incident was in the 1st half as opposed to the 89th minute?

  • jitty

    @ Stuart

    Completely agree – in fact I would not be surprised if he got the card deliberately to end the run at the end of a meaningless game

  • Shard


    Of course selling our players (or rather having to sell our players) has had an effect on the team. There is definite decline from years before, but we are comparing to a team that went unbeaten, so decline, in any sense, was inevitable. No..It’s not good enough. Doesn’t mean it’s not good.

    Despite the decline, I would have to take issue with your use of the term ‘steady decline’. It’s not been steady. There have been a few years in between where we’ve improved. (Usually the years where there wasn’t much disturbance in the team in terms of transfers out)

    But that also hasn’t been the only reason. We have faced some incredibly horrible refereeing decisions, both major ones, and the ones that are just meant to affect the flow of the game. We have faced more assaults than any other club on our players as evidenced by the number of broken legs. So while I agree that we’ve declined, and that losing our best players most years, has a LOT to do with it. It isn’t the only thing.

    Also, so much is made of Spurs’ wage bill, but it is a fact that our wage bill reflects our 16 years of CL football. If Spurs have that level of success, their wage bill will skyrocket. Maintaining consistency is the hardest thing. If Spurs finish above us, it doesn’t really show decline. It is merely a blip in that sense. I do agree however, with not bothering about Spurs. We are (or should be) better than them, and our sights should be set higher. I am sure they are. But CL football next season will help us get there faster. For that to happen though, we need to do our job and win our 2 games, but also hope for Spurs to slip up. They usually do. Let’s hope they do so again. We could do with some luck going our way.

  • AL

    Jitty, Stuart
    You guys are spot on with your assessments, that red was just to get the ‘silly’ record out of the way. Watch them go almost, if not all of next season again without another red. If they had not got one this season then there was always going to be a chance that run could’ve extended well into next season and beyond, becoming ridiculous and questionable at the same time. Think they achieved a lot by that one sending off;
    they showed
    -red cards CAN be given to united players at OT
    -Webb is not fergie’s rent boy
    -Fergie doesn’t always blast referees when he doesn’t get his way(actually that’s about the first time I have not seen him not blast a ref after a player of his is sent off)

    Its all a put on. That a few people(at least Shard and you Jitty) were predicting this before the match just confirms it.

  • Adam


    I believe there is a form of indtitutionalised bias within the officiating setup, with Manchester United games held in such high regards at the PGMOL, that reflects onfield with the referees scared to call the games fairly or make a judgement call in the oppositions favour.

    If you have the time, trawl through the referees appearances and see how long it takes each one to get a game at Old trafford compared with all other clubs. Manchester United games are held up there as the pinacle of the select group of refs, that needs changing for the integrity of the officiating side of football.

    A fair game for all is all most of us want.

    Also check out where all the refs are from and the spread of the teams in the premiership. Not a single ref based in or around London, yet we have 6 London clubs in the premiership and another 3 southern clubs. Something is not right.

  • Shard


    A few years ago, there was a statistic where Rio Ferdinand, albeit in an injury ridden season (thereby making fewer appearances), went almost the entire season without getting a single YELLOW card. As a CB, that is unheard of.. I think it was the same season he kung fu kicked Sagna.. He was eventually given a yellow card towards season’s end.. Last season (or maybe 2 seasons ago- not sure), Wayne Rooney got his first yellow of the league very late in the season. Them not getting a red, or not getting a penalty is just the most visible, but in no way is it an extraordinary, stat. (For them I mean)

  • sleepinggiant

    Hi Stuart,

    Thanks for the interesting reply. I don’t agree about having to sell our players though. We are only forced to sell them because we don’t pay them what our rivals do. It is choice, and choice alone that has created this situation. We are no more bound to be a self sustaining team than. It is something our owners have chosen, and the results are there to see. In any case, as we have all seen now, even within this self imposed straight-jacket we could easily afford to pay our top stars what they are worth, we just need to dispense with the outrageous wage distribution policy.

    I would also disagree and I do think we are in steady decline. The odd slight 3rd does not take away from the fact that the current trend is downwards. The way the club is currently run, we all know at the start of every season we are more likely to finish 5th than 1st. Or perhaps other people think otherwise? In any case, surely that is semantic. Surely any decline, whether steady or not, is unacceptable.

    Also, I like all other fans feel Arsenal get the worst of the decisions and injuries. But truthfully, in over 50 years of following football, I have never heard a fan of any club say anything other than that. IF it is the case, surely the answer is still to improve our playing squad so that any bad decisions or injuries mean that a 4 nil win is turned into a 4 1. You’d be surprised how little it would matter than. In any case, I worry you folks make too much of the decisions – I personally don’t give a damn about the sending off today – Chelsea had the game won anyway, which is what we really should be concentrating on.

    Anyhow, I must go. Interesting stuff folks. Best to all of ye (as long as Tony doesn’t try to belittle Georgie Graham’s achievements again!!)

    Come on you gunners!

  • Stuart

    It’s ironic how utd get a red card only once the title has been decided. It went down to the wire last season so they couldn’t have received one then.

  • Stuart

    But lets be fair, they were never going to match our unbeaten run so they had to have something.

  • sleepinggiant

    hi Adam,

    I do agree with that (never liked those MAncs). But in fairness it doesn’t stop Chelsea winning all round them. I don’t like excuses. Better to go out and hammer the opposition 4 – 0 every time so that we go to Old Trafford so far ahead of them it makes no difference!
    Oh the memories!

  • Stuart

    The ultra supsicious might view the lack of Fergie ranting as a sign that it was known the card was going to happen at some point.

  • jitty

    @ Shard


    The Rio run was a classic.

  • Shard


    You’re welcome to discuss things again. Nice to have a chat with you.

    Agree that it is our choice to be self sustaining. But I think you are being too quick to judge that policy. (Yes I know 8 years etc..we’re reminded of that everyday) ManU, by the way, are a self financing business. In fact, they are such a big business that they can afford to pay their directors a small fortune in dividends, and a truckload of interest payments and still have enough to match the big spenders. So, by definition, it is flawed to say the billionaire model has to prevail.

    Of course, we aren’t ManU. But we are still making our way into the European elite, financially. Plus, apart from the dangers of the investor billionaire model, you forget that it has only been 10 years since Abramovich came on the scene. Who knows how it’ll pan out in the next 10 years. But clubs like ManU, Bayern, eve Barcelona and Madrid, despite their different circumstances, all show that the billionaire sugar daddy isn’t necessarily the only way to go. We’re just paying off the stadium. Our earning potential is still massive, and we’ll show that over the next few years I believe.

    Of course if you want to just say that the self financing model is our problem, I’d agree with you to the extent that at the moment, it is the underlying cause. You are free to disagree with it, but that is a whole different discussion than one related to just the problems on the field.

  • sleepinggiant

    Thanks Shard.

    However, my fear is that the billionaire model already HAS been vindicated. We now have a huge rival in London thanks to nothing but that. Irrespective of FFP, do you really think Chelsea are going to revert to their former selves as a complete irrelevance in the future? This is a club that challenged for nothing but the title of having the most famous fans in football. I do not believe they will ever return to their former selves, as pretty much a yo-yo club, do you?

    This is a club who could never have been anything other than mediocre without a billionaire, while they now find themselves, in most peoples eyes, in the top 5 or 6 clubs in Europe. Unless I am wrong, and they are a championship club sometime in the middle future (let along challenging to win the champions league)surely that is proof positive of the success of the billionaire model, on our very doorstep!

    Like I said, I hope Im wrong, but can any of you see it? I cant.

    Anyhow, really must go.

    Regards to all.

  • Shard


    just saying that isn’t the only model that can succeed. They won’t go away even if we get a billionaire of our own either. Anyway.. see you around.

  • Stuart

    Hi sleepinggiant,
    I think you were replying to Adam or Shard at 8.14pm however I will respond. I think the needing to sell our players bit was more about achieving the £15-£20 million per season profit target that Wenger was explaining he has to meet. If you want to take this further and read between the lines, in typical Wenger snide but subtle comment fashion, he was (in my opinion) publicly (and cleverly) criticising the board without directly saying anything out of line about his employers. I stress this is purely my own opinion (although I don’t think I am alone with this) so I can’t express this as fact.

    In reference to your response to my comment and an Arsenal decline, I don’t deny this has happened however I do deny it has happened as much as people say it has and my argument about Tottenham in my opinion is a valid one. There is nothing we can do about it or we could but it would most likely be illegal or involve some lasagne. Our own quality is all we can be expected to deal with. I get what you say about relativity but that really is another discussion from me stating a Spurs improvement is not a sign of an Arsenal decline. Norwich have also improved, is this also indicative of an Arsenal decline? If so, Wolves were in the Premier league last season and are going to be in League 1 next season, they have been relegated two seasons in a row. This must be a sign of Arsenal improving surely.

  • WalterBroeckx

    we should not forget that Stoke also need at least one point from their last games to be sure about survival. So the game for the spuds over there might be a difficult one. Sunderland also might be not sure of survival in the PL.



  • AL

    Agree the Stoke game not being easy. Actually I think all 3 teams chasing cl football have equally difficult games to negotiate; Chelsea at Villa, ours at Newcastle, and the Stoke one that you mention. I think whoever comes from those games as victors will have a stronger chance of going through. Of course Chelsea were helped today by funguson, or they would’ve had the more tougher matches taking their game with spuds midweek.

  • AL

    taking their game with spuds midweek into account….

  • uk

    @stuart, in other words, wenger is cowardly, subservient, yes-sir manager. Content with achieving the boss’s target, while pocketing his fat wages.
    Meanwhile, is this a man utd fan site? All I’ve been reading is “man utd has not got a red’. Man utd has not conceded a penalty. Rio hasn’t gotten a yellow” bl bla bla. And the neutral is supposed to go “wow, what a great team”. Maybe man utd is just too good for english teams that they don’t need strong arm tactics to dominate the league. Maybe when they face european opposition, they are given more equal competition

  • WalterBroeckx

    Just turn your comment upside down and look at why Utd is not able to dominate in Europe. Maybe they do need the strong arm tactics to dominate in the PL and that they are too far of the powers in Europe to do the same and then cannot make it. Last year they even couldn’t qualify for the knock out stages in the CL.

  • uk

    @bill 4rm manhattan.
    Yaaawwwnnnnn!! Such a bore

  • sperez

    Stuart, following the herd? Oh, the irony…Even Spuds can see Arsenal are in decline. ‘Before you lot were competing for trophies and didn’t care about us now you are more obsessed with us’.
    In other words, we are the new Spuds.
    Almost a decade ago, Arsenal were winning trophies. Now,we can’t even compete for them. In any sane person’s eyes going from winning real trophies to accepting imaginary 4th spot trophy is DECLINE.
    Before, we had world class players, now Wenger is happy to sell them, replacing them with duds. I guess you might think it’s ok to weaken the squad season after season. Certainly, replacing RVP with a very average striker may be wonderful to look through your rose-tinted glasses but most Arsenal fans will disagree.
    You think we’re still in 2005. Eight years have passed.
    So, according to your logic Spuds have more room for improvement than Arsenal despite having a £50m lower wage bill ? Ah, that’s because Wenger keeps buying shite players, tying them down to very lucrative long term contracts. So,we’re stuck with a bunch of overpaid dross. We cannot shift them because they’re being paid inflated wages. Many of these players don’t even make the bench. But the horrendous Wenger’s policy allow that kind of situation to happen.
    But I guess you don’t see anything wrong with this pathetic wage structure that rewards failure and punishes top players. Arsenal is not a meritocracy and this attracts complacent, lazy and shite players. Mediocrity breeds mediocrity. Yes, the ‘loyal’ ones who will stay at the club because they’re not mercenaries. Off course the likes of Djourou, Chamakh, Squillaci, Diaby, Santos keep draining Arsenal’s resources because they’re ‘loyal’. This has nothing to do with these players being grossly overpaid.
    Arsenal wage bill is huge and yet we don’t have a single world class player. Bayern wage bill is lower than Arsenal’s and they can afford to buy and keep star players. ManU’s wage bill is slightly higher than Arsenal and they can have world class players. Every top club can afford world class player but not Arsenal despite having a massive wage bill, why?
    Because Wenger has been mismanaging the club’s resources, wasting money on average players that offer very little or nothing at all to the team. Some of these players don’t even play for Arsenal. And the worst thing is Monsieur Wenger doesn’t want to be accountable for the mess he created. If this accountability depends on fans like you, I’m sure Wenger will be allowed to continue his abysmal experiments without pressure. Thank God there are sensible fans who can see this aberration and want change. They are not sheep blindly following their leader to the abyss.

  • Stuart

    “in other words, wenger is cowardly, subservient, yes-sir manager”

    Erm, no! If that was so, he would say nothing. Yet another example of you negative types twisting the truth to meet your preconceived agenda. You should go and work for le-grove or talksport, they are one and the same.

  • kenny ken

    I think it does matter because it exemplifies the complacency and the decline at Arsenal especially on the playing side where we struggle in the last 3rd of the pitch. I mean despite Podolski & Walcott being allegedly the best finishers at the club technically they are poor and lack the sufficient cutting edge in the big games. will it prove costly?

  • Stuart

    ha ha sperez, almost a decade ago we were winning trophies blah blah blah!!!! so according to your logic, the vast sums of cash coming into the game ala Chelsea, City would have nothing to do with us now going for top four as opposed to top two because of course Arsenal should have decided they could not do this (or something like that)…. this means when talking about decline, you criticise me for not talking relatively yet it is ok for you to completely overlook this vital feature. Yeah OK. Further to this, please do tell me where I have even brought up the wage bill. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is your fascination and you are now using your argument which you carry on with on your own, against me, when I had nothing to do with it.

    Anyway, did you actually read ALL of my comments in full or did you just pick out words and re-arrange them into a sentence that would allow you to argue and pick holes in in something? If you had done the former, you would have noticed I have said there has been a decline at Arsenal and you will also have noticed I said Tottenham improving is not a sign of Arsenal declining. They are two completely different things.

  • americangooner

    the whole question posed in the title seems redundant if the correct calculation were applied. that would mean we would still be ahead of tottnum, if results go as shown in the article. Provided we reach the CL, it would not matter to me that we are below Tottnum. the worst case scenario for me would be where totnum is above us and we arent in CL.
    We face two teams that are trying to stave off relegation – wigan and nufc. the difficult game for me is the one against nufc. they have some talent now they have their leader back. wigan are fragile on the back. so if we can play against them like we played against Manure during the first 30 minutes, we can ward off their threat. but we still have 10 days for the next game and the results that our next two opponents grind out, will determine the competitiveness of their players i.e. whether they will still have the zeal to perform. whatever the case maybe, its omnipotent that we win both the games.

  • uk

    @walter, why would they dominate in europe? I thought I just mentioned that they compete against more equal opposition in europe? I would wager that their performance in europe shows just that, a team competiting favorably among eQuals. 3finals in six years, 1win. That is favorable competitionif we assume that the competition contains at least 10worthy teams in the reviewed 6years

  • Charlie

    Chelsea are probably coming third so of course it matters who comes fourth out of Spurs and Arsenal. Spurs in the Champions League and Arsenal in the Europa League would be a clear sign that they have overtaken us and would demonstrate a further decline. A decline that started with Arsenal no longer being able to compete for trophies and which we are praying will be reversed rather than get worse. We will probably see Chelsea getting Falcao and Mourninho, City getting Cavani and United getting Lewandowski over the summer. Arsenal will not buy anyone as good as any of those players and will be further from those three teams next year so the only hope of managing to stay in the Champions League is to stay ahead of Spurs.

  • sperez

    You brought the wage bill into question when you said Spuds had more room for improvement and since the Wenger apologists always uses money as an excuse…
    According to your logic, Stuart, Dortmund, Wolfsburg, AC Milan, ManU would never ever win a trophy again because they’re not the richest teams in the league. What a load of bollocks! Conveniently using the money excuse again. So if money is the only thing to take into consideration how teams like Bradford can outplay us? How teams like Swansea and Birmingham can win trophies and Arsenal can’t ?
    Why I don’t hear Ferguson proclaiming ‘3rd spot’ the new ManU trophy ?
    I’ll tell you why, because managers like Ferguson, Klopp have a winning mentality, tactical nous, motivation skills, can’t accept complacency and don’t hide behind lame excuses.
    So it’s easier to blame Wenger’s inability to adapt to the changes in modern football on other club’s wealth.
    Wenger crying poverty and yet has no qualms demanding to be the highest paid manager (with Ferguson) in the league. Wenger complaining about another club’s financial power but sees no problem in spending over £100m over the last two seasons (many of his signings proved to be…shite).
    The ‘We Can’t Compete’ Brigade…
    Saying we can’t compete despite having a wage bill close to £150m is naive at best.
    It’s almost impossible for a club like Norwich to win the league but Arsenal have sufficient resources to compete for major honours. The problem is we have a manager who has been wasting the club’s resources on his beloved failures and doesn’t want to change. You can’t make winners from an environment full of complacency and mediocrity. That’s why our top players leave. They’re underpaid in order to reward fringe player with massive wages and know Wenger has lost the plot completely.
    Stop pretending we are Fulham, West Ham, Norwich or Villa. Arsenal are the 4th richest club in the world (Forbes) and yet ‘cannot compete’.
    We cannot compete because we have a clueless manager who mismanaged the club’s resources, buying dross and paying them with a socialist wage structure. None of the top clubs has similar aberration implemented in their wage structure, only Arsenal.
    Wenger still operates in the same way he did in 1998 regarding his buyings… the time has changed and Wenger couldn’t adapt. That’s why Arsenal are in decline and the club will slip further and further if this serial loser remains in charge.

  • americangooner

    sperez, can’t understand why you are trying so hard. nobody is gonna take you seriously here unless you present your case logically. your drivel is repetitive. can’t find any sound reasoning in your comments. not even the doomers support you here.

  • americangooner

    and no, arsenal is not the fourth richest club in the world. here’s a nice piece written on that topic:

  • AL

    People, I agree with Bill. I know debating is healthy but we shouldn’t waste our time with people like sperez,uk,& rupert cook. They are attention-seeking twunts (to borrow from Adam) and much as we try to lay the facts on the table or however the team does well, they’ll always pretend to see things from the other side. I would suggest ignoring them completely, and not responding to their comments. Perhaps that way they’ll get the hint and jog on, not holding my breath though. But at least we won’t be giving them the attention, and satisfaction, they so crave.

    These idiots acknowledge that there are only two teams, barca & Madrid, with any chance of winning the title in la liga as a result of the two’s financial muscle, which they also concede gives the two an unfair advantage over the rest. Yet when it comes to the premiership they refuse to accept that the same irregularities give certain teams an unfair advantage over others. Our team is in a very strong position now than it has ever been in nearly 10years, and the future is very bright. Arsenal till I die.

  • Stuart

    I did not bring the wage bill up, it’s irrelevant. You are making things up again just for the sake of something to argue about.

  • Stuart

    Nice link Al, further evidence of facts that get twisted by those who who don’t look outside their little box.

  • Austrian Gooner

    Spurs have only 62 points without the Saints game. You added them 3 points! Because you counted the Saints game twice!
    No need to be afraid!
    All the best

    Arsenal til I die!

  • Steve

    Before Wenger, life of an Arsenal fan was nice and easy. The odd cup run interspersed with a good run in the league, unless you watched them in the 1930’s I suppose. Nothing was really expected. Even in 1989, how many fans truly expected anything from the last game of the season at Anfield? We would go to away games and sing our hearts out knowing that it will always be the same. A more appropriate name would have been the Inconsistent’s rather than the Gooners.

    Then along came Mr Wenger, a Frenchman that our all-knowing media knew little about and almost overnight transformed The Arsenal. They had flair, skill and played the beautiful game beautifully. He brought in players that the great Dennis Bergkamp could work with, players who would flourish under Wenger.

    Pass, move & speed was the game The Arsenal played, most PL teams could not live with it and were almost beaten before they stepped onto the green grass. Scoring against them was almost suicidal like taunting a wounded lion. League titles and FA cup finals were the norm rather than something to treasure.

    Then it came Arsenal’s and Wenger’s greatest or could it be said worst ever season. Something that in modern times had never happened and probably will never happen again. The Arsenal, the inconsistent’s, the team which I grew up watching never knowing what performance would appear from game to game went the whole damn season unbeaten, forty nine games in the league in total but the full season unbeaten. Wenger had almost promised this the season before but everybody all the experts and pundits just laughed but Wenger knew.

    What Wenger did that season has ruined him, what Wenger did up to that point has made Wenger what he is seen to be today. A has been, a man past his best by a number of years. Fans have moved on from hoping and willing to demanding unconditionally. No more hoping for a good cup run, no more hoping for a good finish in the league. Fans now demand a cup final win, they demand a challenge for the league every season come what may.

    Wenger was a visionary, he knew he wanted his teams to play the beautiful game the beautiful way. Alas, like all great visionaries his vision was taken, twisted and used against him. His beautiful football was turned from finesse to win at all costs. There was however, no beauty involved from the teams that adapted his vision. His perfect creation turned into his own personal Frankenstein. He has tried to move the vision on but has been stopped by brick walls, buses, one financial hand tied behind his back, greed and a lack of passion by some.

    So here he sits in his cul-de-sac looking at the emergency gate at the end of the road, a small turning space is up ahead. Does he use the space to do a U-turn, go back on everything he has believed in and go in the same direction as the other Juggernauts, does he park up and leave with the keys in the ignition and engine running for somebody else to make the decision or does he push on hoping that by the time he gets to the gate he has found the key to unlock it.

    Whatever his decision, I still look at Arsenal as the team I first started watching all those years ago, I still look forward to going, I still don’t know what team will appear every week performance wise. I still hope for a good cup run and maybe a good run in the league, but for many it seems this is not enough and for that reason it must be looked at that Wenger has ruined Arsenal.

    Wenger has not just ruined Arsenal he can I think be held responsible for the current state of the PL, without him and a bit of help from Manchester United the PL would not be anything like the draw it is today. Yes we had a few exciting seasons with Blackburn, Leeds and Newcastle but on the whole the PL was just drifting along. Then along comes Wenger and put a spanner in the whole thing, attractive attacking football, speed and skill. Wenger and his rivalry against Manchester United upped the ante, we had two great sides going at it hammer and tongs, men with more money than sense watched from the side-lines wanting a bit of the action. Russian, American and Middle Eastern money arrived. Far Eastern betting syndicates jumped on the PL band wagon and suddenly the PL was a multi nation commodity. Clubs were wanted worldwide not just the odd trip in the close season but whole tours designed to get more of a worldwide fan base.

    What we have now is a league that only the rich teams can win, ticket prices are high, wages are high, the games moved left right and centre for the money on TV all because Wenger wanted to play the beautiful game beautifully. Wenger has ruined football in this country.

    Taken from

  • Steve

    Some on here only look at selected facts regarding the last 10 years of football at its effect on Arsenal. When looking at these years Chelsea. Manchester city, PSG, Malaga, the resurgence of German football, the move to a new ground, the front loaded sponsorship deals, increase in wages etc all need to be looked at. It’s easy to sit here and just look at the trophy count and go “Arsenal are rubbish” but that is a very myopic view of the whole matter. It makes for great posting arguments because when looked at in isolation you are right but try expanding your views take that step back to look at the much much bigger picture of the footballing world we now live in.

    Things like “we lost out on Mata for the sake of a few million” that few million according to the rumours I have read had more to do with the buying out of his third party ownership. Arsenals wages yes are high but are they calculated in the same way Manchester United do theirs, does anybody really believe that SAF takes home less a season than Wenger. Manchester United use money from sponsorships to cover wages which does not come out in the total wage bill.

    Arsenal by what has been said by Wenger, Fox & Glazides have been in a period of financial saving mode, living within their means, helping get the bank balance back to a level(after being nearly empty after the move) that they can move forward with.

    Arsenal are trying to compete without the need of a Russian, Middle Eastern or Joe Lewis type sitting in the background covering any debt where needed. If the bottom fell out of the PL where would most of these clubs be?

  • Mandy Dodd

    Great posts steve

  • Mandy Dodd

    according to our keeper, nothing to worry about on this topic

    think this story is interesting on several levels, note that at the end, Ches praises the work Steve Bould has been doing with the defence. This contradicts a few people of late, and a few headlines. This explains the way we have been playing, and the non appearance of our captain, he is a high line wenger ball type defender, as opposed to what we are doing at the moment.
    Just hope Wenger does not really suffer from this fabled media created jealousy of any praise directed at Bould…..or our keeper is likely to find himself dropped again!

  • sperez

    Wenger and SAF are the highest paid managers in the PL. Very similar wages unless Wenger receives something more from selling players…
    At ManU, there are players earning more than SAF. Are there any Arsenal player earning more than Wenger ? What a hypocrite! Praising his socialist wage model but having no qualms demanding to be the top earner at the club.
    FACT, no top club implements this stupid socialist wage model only Arsenal. And If you can see nothing wrong with that you really deserve Wenger and mediocrity.
    As I said, fortunately there are supporters out there who realised Wenger’s pathetic policy are damaging the club’s ability to compete at the highest level.
    ‘Arsenal are trying to compete…’ What a joke! A team already without chances of winning the PL by December… A team that lost cups to lower division teams on a regular basis…A team knocked out from UCL the moment it faces a good team…Are you sure we’re trying to compete?
    You just confirmed what everyone knew already. We missed out on Mata because of MONEY. At Arsenal, money always comes first even if it’s detrimental to the team. That’s why we have Gervinho and not Mata.
    Arsenal is only a business disguised as a football club. Arsenal board is full of business people. They are completely out of touch with the fans. Compare that to Bayern’s where we have football people who really respect their supporters.
    Wenger cries poverty and wastes vast sums of money overpaying his shite players. Wenger ‘worries’ about financial crises but he sees no problem with the fans paying extortionate ticket prices. Wenger says he manages Arsenal not because of money but demands to be the highest paid manager in the PL (along with Red Nose).
    Arsenal is run by an accountant and a very stupid one, I must add. This socialist wage structure would be Wenger’s downfall.

  • Stroller

    Never believed this Wenger v Bould mythe from the outset, and there’s been nothing to substantiate it subsequently. I seem to recall the originator was that so-called former Arsenal star, insider and pundit Stuart Robson who’s latest contribution is to suggest that Jack Wilshire could be following RVP to Old Trafford.

  • WalterBroeckx

    SPEREZ, so you are suggesting that we got Gervinho because Mata was too expensive and then we turned to Gervinho? Is this what you claim?

    Mata being too expensive might be right. From the moment City or Chelsea move in to a possible transfer target for Arsenal we cannot compete. Because our money is limited. Nobody will dispute that. You think it shouldn’t matter. I think you would be a Arry Redknapp kind of manager. Run your team in the ground at all costs….
    Thank god we never had arry at Arsenal.

  • WalterBroeckx

    And we only lost 2 games to a lower league team in the Wenger era as far as I can remember. That was this year. But that is more the exception than the rule. That Dean was the ref on both occasions might have a little bit to do with the final outcome of course

    And yes we were knocked out by a rather decent team in the CL. We were knocked out on the away goal rules. Remember that team? Yeah they just beaten that useless team called Barcelona. With 7-0 in total. Compare this with our 3-3 final score.

    Ah well it will not matter to you….

  • jitty


    Why are you not doing a blog about Utd’s 560 day run?

    If ever there was a smoking gun that is it – and because the media don’t mention it – no one is talking about it.

    I reviewed the main Man Utd forums and there is no mention of this fact at all – even though they all consider themselves so knowledgable

  • Mike T

    Like most threads there is broad mention around FFP so this article may well be of interest

  • Adam

    Mike T,

    Belgium and I think Holland as well have rules written into their league rules stating how much an agent can earn from a players contract, say 3%, whereas in England we don’t have this rule.

    I think the article maybe be confusing the national rules with UEFA’s FFPR.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Think mata was about money but not the transfer fee. I heard the same as I believe steve posted we agreed a fee and terms and conditions but then several people came out of the woodwork claiming third party ownership who wanted another eight million to buy the player out from them. Arsenal quite rightly do not do business with such people especially when things not made clear from the outset. Anything dodgy we walk and as we all know there is a lot of dodgyness in transfers and agents.even arry called the transfer process the Wild West a man who should know. Very true on bould stroller must admit there were times I wondered if there were creative tensions between aw and sb but it seems like so many things we hear about the club a complete load of bollox.

  • Stuart

    Adam / Mike T,
    Can you see this case succeeding? I mean the agent has many other market possibilities that do not rely on champions league, if he chooses to operate so nichely, that is his choice.

    Also, the fact that Champions league participation is actually on an invitation basis anyway, the clubs are theoretically not guaranteed a place if they finish within say the top 4 in the UK.

    Seems like there’s more holes in this case than in Henrys bucket.

  • Stuart

    Mandy Dodd,
    If it was spouted from the mouth of Stuart Robson then it must be true eh!

  • Mandy Dodd

    Absolutely Stuart but amazing how many believe every word from such a tainted agenda driven source. So true about our performance against bayern Walter I could be wrong but I believe our last few exits from the cl were to ac Milan barca twice and then bayern. Exits they were tho some ended up as quite heroic exits. But the lesson for next year……start winning the group stage ….the draw does not seem to like us!

  • WalterBroeckx

    Rather good result tonight. Stoke will need at least one point and no better moment to take that next Sunday when they play the totts.
    And Sunderland very much in need of the points if Wigan win against Swansea.

    Of course we just need to focus on our own performances and win our own games.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Imagine me supporting Stoke this weekend… LOL never say never..

  • Adam

    Stuart, I can’t see it going through. The agent is trying to predicting the future.

    I don’t see how dampening down wages will be anti-competitive. If wages go down then it stands to reason the clubs can afford more players and we may even get to a point in the future where we can have more footballers in the industry and do away with the squad size restrictions, meaning more competition for places.

    The agents are hard at it with their own interests at heart.

  • Steve

    Quote ” Ah, that’s because Wenger keeps buying shite players, tying them down to very lucrative long term contracts.”

    Again perhaps if you stood back from the crowd and look at the situation Arsenal put themselves into back in the mid to late 00’s you would perhaps see why Arsenal had to do this.

    Quote “Stop pretending we are Fulham, West Ham, Norwich or Villa”

    I/we do not pretend to be anything except Arsenal, it would be all too easy to be in one of those clubs position now. There are clubs in the League that would cut their right hands off for that. Look down the road what do they need more than ever to keep up, take a look up in Liverpool, Everton a biggish club unable to move, can’t redevelop stuck. If they do move to a new 50,000 seated stadium they will make £4 million a year extra, in the grand scheme of things that is peanuts (roasted peanuts). That is where Arsenal could be at this very moment still at The Arsenal Stadium looking over our shoulders at what could have been.

    Quote “no top club implements this stupid socialist wage model only Arsenal”

    Wenger is reported to be on £6 million (£115k PW) a year while SAF is reported to be on £6.5 million (£125k PW). Now I don’t know many businesses that operate a payment system where the workers get a flat rate of pay higher than their boss. So who is wrong the club that’s out pays its workers over it’s boss?

    Quote ” Arsenal is only a business disguised as a football club. Arsenal board is full of business people”

    Would you rather Arsenal was a football club disguised as a business then? To compete against the big money from Russia, the Middle East and other areas of the world Arsenal need to run as a sound business. This like other businesses needs a long term strategy rather than a short term ‘get rich now sod the future’ mentality some are asking for and that can be seen at some other clubs.

    Also comparing Arsenal with a German team or any other team outside of the PL is an argument not worth having. The German league is run in a totally different way from the PL, the German footballing system is totally different, everything from the cost of living to players wages is different. So to compare Arsenal with a club like Bayern Munich is a poor argument as it is not just Arsenal that would have to change but the PL and the FA and all its associated parts.

  • Steve

    Arsenal CL knocked out by-
    Bayern Munich
    Manchester United
    Bayern Munich
    02/03-group stage
    01/02-group stage

    So when Arsenal were really good (!) we didn’t go past the group stages and since we have been shite we have been knocked out by Bayern Munich twice, Barcelona three times, Manchester United, Liverpool and PSV

  • Mike T

    @ Adam

    My reading is that the suggested action is against UEFAs version of FFP.
    The potential for a legal challenge was floated a few weeks ago & it seems to me that clubs were wary about mounting a challenge so I find it interesting that an agent is taking the lead

    @ Stuart

    Who knows if any legal challenge will succeed.

    Based on emotion it is easy to see why UEFA are pusing ahead with FFP but by trying to restrict the amount of monies a business can spend is anti competitivend thats where the thrust of any challenge will focus on . The outcome will come down to should football be given exemption for the rules that apply to all other forms of business. The European commision has supported UEFA but the Eureopean Courts will take there own view

  • Jay sean

    For 8 years we’ve been winning sweet FA, the only excuse the AKB could come out with was “we play the best football”. But now the football is appalling and “winning is whet counts”. Ok. Do of winning is what counts, can someone please explain the past 8 years of failure? Also, I’d like to know WHY people are desperate for “top 4”? What so we can attract all those superstar signings like we have been with Giroud, Gervinho and Chamakh? Really? Or so we can enjoy the group stages before last 16 elimination! It’s groundhog day. Finishing 4 th will merely make AW smug. The performances from Arsenal have been a joke. £150mil wage bill, we apparently “cannot compete” with teams with greater money, yet the Spuds have been competing with Arsenal all season long, despite spending £50mil less on wages! How? Scraped a win home to Norwich, scraped past Fulham, scrape QPR, jammy win at WBA clinging on. It’s pathetic for a team with Wenger’s resources and just shows how shocking a manager he truly is. 4th is not an achievement and never will be. On a side note, makes me sick how small time Wenger has become. He’s now one of Fergie’s bitches. Apart from handing him the title on a Dutch RVP plate, I see Fergie’s said he “promised” AW he’d do his best to beat Chelski for him. Wow Arsene’s what a trade! We’ll hand you the title, you help us get..errrr…4th! Pathetic. –

  • Adam

    Mike T, as stated earlier I know in Belgium and maybe a few other places they have restrictions on what an agent can earn from a players playing contract and his commercial rights. So the article you linked to maybe confusing the issues?

    But, you have to admit, its in the agents/lawyers interests to be able to renew/re-negotiate contracts as frequently as possible.

    Its this self serving interest that needs removing from the game.

    On this matter, I believe the EC will side with whats best for sport and the integrity of it.

    We may find that this is an attempt at over-reaching to achieve the smaller goal of revoking the percentage rules in the countries that I stated have them.

  • Adam

    @Walter, they still haven’t released who the refs are for this coming weekend?

    Bank holiday over here. probably tomorrow they will release the beasts.

  • Rupert Cook

    @BILL FROM MANHATTAN, you need to get your computer repaired, it seems to be locked on caps.

    I have no wish to see Arsenal finish outside the top 4. Don’t know where you got that idea. Perhaps you’re too busy shouting at people to listen to them.

    @Sleeping Giant, some people will blame anything for our failure. The idea that there is some conspiracy to keep us out of the top 4 that all refs are party to seems quite ludicrous to me. Your summing up of our situation is nearer the truth I imagine.

    I enjoyed your debate with Shard. You both made good points and though Shard and I may hold slightly different viewpoints about our current situation I respect his beliefs and often find his arguments extremely convincing. He does talk a lot of common sense.

    It’s refreshing to see people can have different views without crass insults flying back and forth. I always assumed a blog was an arena for debate where people can voice their opinions without attracting a flood of imprecation.

    Tough games to come. Wigan cannot be underestimated as we found out last year. And Newcastle may well be fighting for their PL survival. A double dour 1-0 to Arsenal will be satisfactory but I’d prefer us to win easily. My nerves can’t take it.

    Still I doubt Spuds will win all their games. I see them getting four points out of a possible nine.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Kay Sean copy and pasting again I see

  • Mike T


    It seems that several UK pers are now running this story and there doesnt seem to be any suggestion that its about the levels agent fees allowable the thrust of the arguemnent is all to do with the anti competitive nature of FFP. Although spooky as it is a plank of the arguemnat is that transfer fees will reduce and with it agent fees will likewise fall.

    The action, it seems is the first stage and UEFA seems to be arguing that the clubs have agreed to FFP which I suspect that the top 100 or so clubs in Europe have so it would follow that a low level club would be brought into the argument and they will say that they are having their business surpressed as if say another RA came along he would not be able to spend/ invest whatever they feel is needed to get the club to the top table
    I find this interesting as its agent led and cant help but feel that there is some influence from elsewhere. The process will take up to 5 years and the first stagewill be that the EC will have to look in detail at the impact of FFP will be , not its motives, its aims nor its benefits quite simply are the regulations anti competitive.

  • Stuart

    Hi Mike T,

    Yes, it’s a tough one but the angle I see it from is that clubs are not being restricted, they still have a choice. FFP does not stop them overspending, it just disqualifies them from ECL.

  • Mike T

    Morning Stuart we have to stop meeting like this!

    You are right that clubs can still spend what they like but the fact that UEFA will take sanctions will be the point.In effect that creates a protected market by virtue of self imposed rules as oppossed to legislation which will be argued are protective, restrictive and by virtue of that anti competition .
    The point is that FFP creates an situation where a investment, and thats what all benefactor owners will say their input,restricts the ability of a small player to grow their businss to a point where all they will have full access to the UEFA pot of gold.
    Its a bit like saying that the British Government saying it will only buy goods from companies based in Europe who trad primarily in the pound.
    Now theres a thought!

  • Mandy Dodd

    Strange, they always take from Online Gooner Stuart.
    Very lazy the modern day troll

  • Adam

    We knew at some stage a challenge by investors would be mounted along those lines, As I have read about this angle some time ago, it had been predicted. but I didn’t think it would happen this quickly.

    I don’t see the difference from this case and the FA, the French and Polish banning third party ownerships. Its still the investment that’s being attacked, and integrity protected.

    I understand the argument from a business perspective;

    Buy a club, bring in expensive players to under-cut your competition, rise up the pyramid towards the riches, sell or keep your investment once artificially inflated.

    What about the integrity of the sport, or all other clubs now adhering to small loss or break-even models, the above model only works if you overwhelm your direct competition financially, which is anti-competitive in the sporting sense.

    Plus, what right do investors or agents have? what laws state that they can earn money from this industry? Why is their money needed? Why should we allow their needs to supersede the integrity of the sport.

    An argument can be made that the benefactor model is actually the artificial model.

    Mike T,

    I maybe assume to much with my initial thoughts towards this being directed towards agents percentage fees.

  • Mike T


    The question then comes down to is football at a professional level a sport, an entertainment industry or what and then the next question is should football or indeed any professional sport be exempt for standard business laws and practise perhaps even including the allocation of state aid to individual companies.
    Third party ownership is something that is bubbling under the surface and something that English clubs have highlighted as an issue with FFP but again till someone challenges the concept UEFa & FIFa will leave things as they are. Lets face it many of the top flight European clubs wouldn’t be so happy with FFP if they had to fund all of the transfer fee from their own resources.So my guess is that at some point third party ownership will be banned in full or more likely all clubs will be able to take advantage of the option.
    Prior to Bosman football was in a bubble but the courts ruling re contracts and the following re the Webster ruling suggest that the European courts do not view football as the special industry the European commission wants and indeed has communicated to UEFA its broad support saying that in their opinion a benefactors financial i input is akin to state

  • Mike T


    aid and we all know how hard UEFA have worked on stopping that source of funding dont we!

  • Adam

    Mike T,
    I think we are agreed that its a game of cat & mouse. For me FIFA & UEFA are trying to stay ahead of the EC, but do as little as possible. I think there maybe ways around issues but at the expense of the agents/lawyers and they’re not going to sit still and allow it to happen, so a fight is inevitable.

    I would like to try and put an article together about it, although the topic expands and keeps on expanding to encompass a lot of variables and interested parties, its a massively diverse subject, with so much to take into consideration.

    Do you feel like taking a stab at it or helping out?

  • Mike T


    Am happy to contribute to an article on this topic.

  • Steve

    I wonder what some will make of this

    I wait with baited breath!!!!!

  • Mandy Dodd

    Hope that is true Steve, that sounds impressive. But John cross usually on the money on such stories, tho he gets a few others wrong. Must admit I thought it was Nike vs Adidas but who cares, if true thirty mil not to be sneezed at.
    Did you also notice the stories , getting more widespread about fergie calling it a day? No idea how true this is but if true, hope he takes Riley into retirement with him.

  • Steve

    I think the SAF story might just be confusion over his knee op this summer but apparently there is something brewing at United. I think it maybe Rooney leaving rather than SAF.

    New kit deal £30 mil, new Emirates deal £20 mil, £70+ mil new TV deal plus £130 mil (is this correct?) in the bank. All of a sudden after 2014 Arsenal look in a strong financial position.

  • Steve

    I can not believe the negativity towards the new kit deal from some Arsenal fans. Taken from the Gooner forum-

    “Somewhat symbolic that a wannabe club gets a shirt deal with a wannabe kit supplier – neither are power players in their respective fields which makes them ideal bed mates”

    And some of the stuff that is being said on twitter is just mind numbingly stupid!!!!

  • Stuart

    That’s crazy, further proof (if you need it) that these peoples only intention is to pick a hole and moan about it. Were they the same people who were wishing we had Liverpools massive deal a few years back? (who was that with now?)

  • WalterBroeckx

    I don’t give a sh*t who is making our kit.
    The only thing I care about is how much more money they give compared to our current deal.
    If it is Nike, Puma, Adidas, Reebok, or whatever Umbro you can think of I really don’t care.
    The only important thing on our kit for me is THE ARSENAL CREST.

    And people who moan about this deal if this is true show that they don’t have the best of interests for Arsenal in their mind.
    If it is the best for Arsenal then it is fine for me.

  • AL

    Ok, so its confirmed old bacon face is retiring, good riddance. I don’t care who replaces the old fool as long as its not that manipulative,lying two-faced scumbag called mourinho. That would be terrible for the premiership; a lying bastard of a manager who is surprisingly worshiped by the English media, going to a club that is worshiped by the English media, a match made in hell.

  • ARSENAL 13


    ARSENALs financial situation is really looking good. BUT its for 2015 I guess. Nike deal end is 2014. And also doubt the 130 mills cash reserve. That 130 million was in the half year financial report (correct me if I am wrong). So in the final year report, we will have a lot less. Expenses, wages and other stuff will be deducted (and adding money generated from home fixtures)…we are expected to have around 80 million reserve. BUT still thats an impressive cash balance to have. Around 200 million in the bank every year which could be used any time when needed is a good financial security to have.

  • AL

    Somewhat I think it will be the Portuguese rat though, with the his come and get me statement he made after the madrid/utd cl match its bound to be him. And utd want ronaldo back so they will most likely go for this tw*t than the more respected Moyes.

    Anyway, screw utd and whoever their next manager is. All that matters to me right now is Arsenal, the club I deeply care about.

  • Steve

    So now who goes where, Chelsea, Manchester United, PSG, Real Madrid, Dortmund & Everton either are or could be looking for new managers this summer.

    Jose Mourinho, David Moyes, Jurgen Klopp, Manuel Pellegrini, Omar Hitzfeld, Gus Hiddink, Rafael Benitez & Carlo Ancelotti

  • Steve

    @ ARSENAL13

    But having the deals signed would I think free up cash reserves in the bank for this and next summer

  • Mandy Dodd

    So it looks like fergie really is going. My thoughts are with the pgmol at this difficult time for them.

  • Pete

    Is it true that Dean is the ref for both Chelsea v Spurs and Arsenal v Wigan??? Horrific. Perhaps all the other relegation-threatened clubs could raise noise over this?

  • Stuart

    Maybe it is a mistake for Arsenal to release this info so early. Surely it would be better to respect the current kit suppliers and keep quiet until this deal has expired and then announce the deal. Releasing the deal has made other clubs aware of the deal so now, whoever is re-negotiating their kit deal next year will be able to use ours as a bench mark and improve on it.

  • Steve

    Has the news been officially released or has the cat been let out of the bag early or have Arsenal allowed it to be released early to allow a release of cash funds to buy this summer?

  • Stuart

    Good question Steve

  • WalterBroeckx

    He forgot to thank the refs in that BBC article. But I have read somewhere that he has written a special thank you letter to Mike Riley.

  • Adam

    No, No, Walter, he has been thanking the referee’s for years via little brown envelopes and holiday homes or in some cases a permanent move from the south of England to Manchester.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Chelsea goal….think that is a good thing?

  • AL

    A chelsea win will be good for us as it would only mean we need a win and a draw to secure 4th spot. Certainly less pressure than having to win the last two matches.