Where did we get to?

By Tony Attwood

Saturday was one of the Untold Reunions, with Walter and his wonderful gang from Belgium, meeting Andrew (our ref previewer), Drew (who for reasons best known to himself writes under a nom-de-plume), and me (who doesn’t) in north London for luncheon, before going to the match.

Our Flemish friends won’t have got back til the early hours of Sunday morning, and after the game I went to a dance, and got home probably at the same time as Walter arrived in Antwerp.  And I was so knackered after four hours solid jiving that I couldn’t even remember the match, let alone write about it.

But the morning brings stiffness but a little more clarity.  Walter will add something when he wakes up, but here’s a little something to be going on with.,,

Yesterday Mourinho attacked the Chelsea fans for being asleep.  I wonder what the reaction will be.  Will it result in “Sing up for Mourinho” and lots of noise, or jibes from the opposition for the next five years, with lots of “Sleeping Midgets” comments?  I doubt it will have done much good, but some fans do just follow the prompting from the autocue.

Elsewhere Barcelona, the club famously engaged in naughty child dealings, and who bought a player in the summer to score their goals, but who had certain issues, lost 0-1 to Celta Vigo, having just lost to Real Mad,   And as reported here the other day with still no sign of their so called “appeal” against the ban on transfers through the next two windows.

Last season Barce nipped second spot by one goal from Real Mad.   This season they are currently third, on the same number of points as the fourth team.  They couldn’t possibly slip could they?

Back in London the guy who sits next to me told me that he had met the father of one of the Burnley players before the game, and he had predicted 0-0 at half time, with 4-0 to Arsenal at the end.  Not bad.  I predicted Theo would come on with us 3-0 up.  He came on at 2-0 and looked stunning.  So moderate accuracy in the untold prediction market.

The Guardian has us with 32 goal attempts, and 67% of the game.  OK we were playing a team that is struggling and doesn’t have the resources, but that does not mean an automatic win.

But as the Guardian also says, “The £31m fee that brought Alexis from Barcelona is looking more and more like outstanding value.”  10 goals, and he’s still getting used to playing the Arsenal way.  As Mr Wenger said before the game, “Europe doesn’t produce forwards like that any more.”   But we’ve got one of the genuine articles.

It is going to make all the difference this season because Danny will come back to top form soonish, and Giroud will reappear too.

The Telegraph went with Theo’s arrival as producing “a cheer which could have been heard in Tottenham.”

That was a silly exaggeration, as was “As the crowd grew ever more impatient…”  Not where I was sitting.  We were going to score, we knew it, Burnley knew it, it was obvious.  Impatience?  Only with the wretched time wasting by the Burnley keeper.  He was booed from  the half hour mark onwards, but did the journalists hear it?  Not a chance.

The Independent was closer to the mark with Theo’s “arrival brought a huge cheer, but it was still not as loud as the reception for Sanchez at the final whistle.”  That’s more like reality.  Here’s the table.

Man City
West Ham

Oh yes perhaps I should add that Liverpool lost.

It really doesn’t matter much what happens in Manchester.  Well, that’s a general comment about life really, but today it doesn’t matter.  If Man U win they are still below us.  If Man City, we can smirk about Man U’s troubles.  But if Man U beat Man C by three goals not only can we smile about how using profits from the stuff that causes climate change doesn’t guarantee you being top of the league, we’ll also be third not fourth.  A tiny detail, and just a passing whim, but it is sunday and it will take me all day for me to recover.

And recover I must because on Monday I leave to see my youngest daughter in Australia – my final visit before she gets dual nationality.  And I haven’t packed yet.

Walter will be running the show, so if you have an article you’d like considered please send it to WalterBroeckx@hotmail.com

I’m taking my laptop, so I am hoping to be able to add the odd thought from the antipodes.

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85 Replies to “Where did we get to?”

  1. Hey, Podolski! Do you know how much it costs to do a goalpost? This is not the first time you have done it, mate.

  2. I was reduced to following the game on talksprat I heard no mention of the time wasting by Burnley. No mention of a penalty to be awarded to Arsenal.

    On the BBC web page was the headline ‘Santi saves Arsene’s neck’

    It says much for Arsene and is commitment to Arsenal that despite the constant attacks on him by the English media he stays at the club. Long may he continue to do so.

  3. at the start of this game as well as the sunderland game i said to my wife that arsenal are gonna win. i kinda knew it as i saw them closing opposition down. they are increasingly looking like the old arsenal again.and thanks for the update on the vampire. since when did one vampire start to make a season?

  4. Thanks for the after match report Tony…and have a good trip downunder!!

    On other news; “…because everybody was sleeping,” added Mourinho.

    Well if they play kick the other, and/or hypnosis football – no wonder they were all “sleeping”

  5. I hope Mr Wenger completes his 25 years at arsenal

    Media is hoping he doesn’t equal their god.

  6. Tony, glad you guys had a great day yesterday and best wishes for your trip.

    It was a very dominating display yesterday and eventually a very fine result.

    But importantly, despite the PGMOL ruining some of our results this season, there has been a positive moment in each match. Yesterday there were a lot of positives – the result, the way we played, super Sanchez – but not forgetting a lot of other excellent performances, the continued careful reintroduction of Ramsey and the reappearance of Walcott!

  7. @bjtgooner
    November 2, 2014 at 10:45 am

    Agreed and we must add that Poldi was VERY unlucky not to score from those two thunder efforts. Poldi is really chomping at the bit to get off the mark I think!

  8. Bon voyage Tony. Just so you know, the Clock End (where I sit) were booing the Burnley keeper for time wasting from just about the first minute. By my calculations the ref added 30 se4conds for it at the end of the first half. Not nearly enough.
    And it was only 0-0 at half time because, once again, the ref and his linesman missed a blatent Burnley handball in the area in the first half. It’s gets more mysterious as the weeks go by.

  9. Great weekend and even the mighty Barca came unstuck. Tuesday hopefully Arsenal will show Anderlecht what they are really made of and take an easy 3 points.

  10. Good result,but am hopping that the ruthless arsenal of the invisibles will come back sooner than latter.It could have been 10 to the arsenal.The media will continue to talk about Costa for scoring 9 goals when a winger (sanchez) has 10.

  11. Insideright
    Re the handball it is impossible to conceive that nether the ref or the lino failed to see it. Presumably, like everyone else in the stadium or at home, they were watching the flight of the ball as it came across from the corner (why would they NOT be looking at the ball) in which case how could they not see an arm extended way above everyone’s heads deliberately deflect the ball away from the danger zone. It surely is not possible is it?

  12. Great game, great result and in spite of the usual suspects doing their darndest to screw us.

    While Alexis is getting his utterly well deserved accolades I must put in a mention for Nacho Monreal. For a left back with his height, he really is punching above his weight in our central defence. He keeps things simple and never shies from a fight. I know he isn’t lighting fireworks but it’s quiet efficient performances like that that keeps the team going.

  13. Mick,

    You would thing that Boyd winning a header against Mertesacker would have sent the alarm bells ringing. Well maybe if it were an Arsenal player against ANY other opposition.

  14. Wenger gets knocked a lot but I think full credit must go to him for making this switch. People say he is not a tactical manager but abandoning his 4 1 4 1 when it was clearly not going well and playing to the strengths of our best player has seemed to give everyone a lift and the defense is benefitting as well by having both arteta and flamini in there. Credit where credit is due. 89  2

  15. @Bootoomee
    November 2, 2014 at 11:27 am

    I agree with you Bootooomee with regard to Nacho Monreal. I know he has his ‘doubters’ but I have always felt that he gives his all and as you say never shies from a fight.

    Like many Arsenal players before him he may not have the talent of other players in the team but he is rock solid and dependable.

    I am glad he plays for Arsenal.

  16. @Boo The whole team played well. Santi was so unlucky to have two good shots saved. Credit to Heaton he was excellent for Burnley. He saved them the shame of a big defeat.

    You’re so right about the quiet efficient performances.

  17. Yes, Liverpool lost. As did the darling of the aaa, herr Klopp. He has a terrible record this season in the bundesleague, a contrasting record in the ECL.

  18. Colario,

    Thanks. I’m glad that I’m not the only one noticing Monreal. I love his humility and get-on-with-it attitude.


    As one of my favourite Arsenal players, ever, I am desperately hoping for Santi to break his goal hoodoo. But goals or none, the little magician is still one of our best players in the final 3rd. Plus, he is supporting in the back now more than he ever did. As I said about Monreal, it is performances like this that will keep us going.

    Please don’t get me started on Podolski who came in to give us the winner in Belgium and almost broke the goalie’s arm and the goal post yesterday. That is our team and I am damn proud of them.

    Onward, forward and in harmony!

  19. Mandy,
    Klopp’s team led at Bayern but ended up losing at Munich for the first time in five years.
    As the Bundesliga table shows at this moment, Dortmund is in 16th out of 18, with a paltry 7 points after 10 games.
    This 16th position burdens the team with a relegation pair of games against the 3rd from the second tier in Germany.

  20. There’s no such thing as an easy 3 points in the CL, how anyone can ever reach such a conclusion…

  21. Watching the Manchester derby, and it just struck me that we got the best player from Southampton out of the players to leave them last summer (lallana,shaw,lambert,lovren….).

  22. Bootoomee,

    You are right about Monreal. In fact, he is really putting on the shift lately in covering for Kos. Never outpaced, never outjumped and never out of position. Absolutely reliable. His desire and intelligence precedes him. Another gem in Arsene’s pocket. Where are the doubters now?

  23. AL,

    That is so true. Chambers is the only one doing better than last season of the lot that left Southampton. Says a lot about our ‘clueless’ manager doesn’t it?

    Now a regular in a CL playing team with assists and a goal while also featuring for England. The young man made the right decision coming to the Emirates and I am so happy for him and us.

  24. As Lord Sugar says:

    “Wenger knows the market”

    Shaw = x2 Wonga paid for Chambers
    di Maria = x2 Wonga paid for Sanchez

    Plenty of evidence to support this understanding.

  25. Not forgetting £30M Mangala who was mangaled in the pre-season game, when Chambers impressed everyone at CB at Wembley against a strong City front line. Smalling…?

  26. There was an untold Untold meeting at the ground yesterday.
    I had the lucky honour and privilege of finding myself randomly sat in the seat next to Untold’s Menace. And it was great fun to watch a game of football with The Menace, let alone an Arsenal game.

    Santi scored in the Super Cup (it would be an abuse of the English language to put charity or community in the same sentence as our sweet FA), maybe he just needs that goal. Or has a slightly tight muscle in his favoured shooting leg? Who knows? Not me? He’ll be fine.

  27. I can’t agree about Monreal. He was not ‘decent’ or ‘solid’, he was excellent against Burnley.

  28. finsbury,

    Glad you and Menace saw the game together. I almost met Jambug at the Emirates cup but missed him due to a slight miscommunication.

    About your Lord Sugar quote, I gotta say some of the people most respectful Arsene Wenger’s achievements support Spurs. They might hate him for obvious reasons but they admire him greatly. The Spurs fans in my social circle often tell me how miserable we are going to be when he retires. I hope they are wrong but I’m glad he is still ours for the next few years.

  29. Longivity of Mr Wenger is not fluke. With the challenges, he had to deal with, he had to reinvent. And reinvent he did.

    Burnley game had something about it…… May be we were a bit constrained. Pressure to score first was it???…. There was something, a mental block, but once the goal was scored it became free flowing. Some movements were breath taking.

  30. Boo, I’m glad AW signed the new contract.
    Looking from afar at the squad list I notice that Ozil and Sanchez are close in age to the Britcore of the squad, plus the ‘keeper and others too, and I think that there might be a plan there.

  31. Bootoomee/Finsbury
    Agree. Have also noticed that all self-respecting individuals in football have the utmost respect for Wenger. It’s only bootlickers (Jose and other clowns) who are disrespectful, because they know that’s what the media wants to hear, scoring cheap points against the great man. Cowards.

  32. @Finsbury. I concur that there is a hint of a plan. A plan to build a core of a team capable of dominating domestically and continentally for years, possibly replicating the ‘Invincibles’. I also wish to say that Monreal has been quite a revelation. Who could have thought he would command the cb so well, for so long? The guy is a defender at heart, period. His positipnal sense and efficiency at mopping up, his game-reading ability, his overall contribution to the defence-offence transition has been nothing short of excellent. And to think he is not a new signing…. So Wenger does know! Why he didnt buy, buy, buy, may be unknown to most. But the guy seems to know what he’s doing. I believe the players in that team are actually better than most will give them credit for, including the young talents. Our team is also is also better than we think. They will come good in time…

  33. I am still trying to work out why yet again an obvious penalty was not given to Arsenal. The time Boyd, already on a yellow card made not one but TWO deliberate movements with his arm, finally stretching it as far as he could above his head to palm the ball away. There is not a chance it could have been missed by both officials, as every single Arsenal player seemed to see it and claim. I was watching a less than perfect internet feed and it was even clear to me.

    Here’s our net penalty position over each of the last few seasons:

    9/10 for 4 against 6 (net -2)
    10/11 for for 7 against 9 (net -2)
    11/12 for for 3 against 4 (net -1)
    12/13 for for 5 against 6 (net -1)
    13/14 for fo3 3 against 6 (net -3)
    14/15 to date for 0 against 1 (net -1)

    So over the last 6 seasons we have been
    awarded 22 penalties (an average of under 4 per season which places us well down the list of clubs)
    conceded 32 penalties (an average of over 5 per season which places us in the top half of teams conceding
    net of -10 penalties

    Now given out possession and the age old excuse for Utd penalties over the years it seems that this particular rationale is not holding up for us?

    I wonder what it actually takes these days to give Arsenal a penalty? Especially one that gives us an opportunity to take the lead or equalise…

  34. As per the above post , what about Chelsea ?

    Over the same period they have been awarded 45 penalties and conceded 16, a net of +29.

    Chelsea +29
    Arsenal -10

    hmmm…. that oil money seems to reach quite a long way in recent times….

  35. Actually here is a list of all 6 of the top teams since 2008/9

    Chelsea +30
    Manchester City +22
    Manchester Utd +18
    Liverpool +13
    Spurs -8
    Arsenal -10

    Arsenal are the only team to have conceded more than awarded in every season.

  36. Stan, I don’t really know if Nacho man is a good CB or not. Maybe it’s too early to tell? Fair to say it wasn’t the most terrifying consideration after his fourty-five minutes there in the Super Cup against City. The plan I was thinking of was the presence of a stable group of ridiculously good players maybe a dozen or more, with years still left in them, who’ve been at the club for years as a nice welcome present to any eventual successor.

    But finishing off on CBs I thought Hayden played well against Southampton, that was the only Arsenal game where I’ve noticed some nerves from the rookie Chambers, understandably, and Hayden looked good opposite Pelle. He didn’t cost £30M! 🙂

  37. Hmm, interesting that, jayram. Just did a search and noticed before 2009 Arsenal always got awarded more penalties than they conceded each season (not difficult to understand considering we tend to get upwards of 60% possession in most matches). But from 2009 that trend has been reversed completely, with us conceding more penalties than awarded. Incidentally Chelsea’s record also changed round the same time from getting more or less even numbers to ridiculous figures like 11 for against 1 (for a team that specialises in bus-parking that’s very strange). The only thing I can see being sort of a common denominator in these “weird” coincidences is the appointment of the current refs’ chief round about the same time. Maybe it all is just a coincidence.

  38. Not a coincidence Al. Riley and the people running him do not want arsenal, or arsene to succeed for some reason.
    The club should be using the stats in this thread to try and get a more level playing field

  39. Thanks for those revealing figures on penalties, Jayram. Also the dates.

    Yesterday’s was so blatant. Maybe, like some other things, the media will start commenting on it more, which may have some effect. We can only hope.

  40. Pat,

    Your optimism is commendable but how can the media do anything about it when MoTD blatantly ignored it? I am not as optimistic as you on this.


    Soon my friend, soon 🙂

  41. Bootoomee and jayramfootbal

    In an article a few days ago titled ‘Football betrayed: Why journalists and broadcasters laugh at us’ By Tony, Rich posted an article @ 4:53PM that included some statistics regarding the penalty awards. You’ll find the stats in the 4th paragraph.

  42. jambug,

    Just checked the comment and it is very detailed. I kinda like jayramfootball’s presentation and I think he should send to Walter if he wants to. An article goes much farther than a comment and I think more people need to see this.

  43. Bootoomee.

    Indeed. An article similar to the fouls to cards would be nice.

    Honestly, the statistical evidence is damming and surely adds significant credence to the Referee reviews which show an almost identical bias against.

    Worst statistics in the Penalty department.

    Worst statistics in the cards department.

    Worst statistics in the Reviews.

    And still even some supposed Arsenal fans ridicule us as a bunch of paranoid fantasists.


  44. Ah, just seen the post you referring to jambug, and how you and Rich were basically saying the exact same thing being discussed here. I had a few busy days and missed some of the articles on UA, including this one, but what I find remarkable is how most here on UA will come to exactly the same conclusions (as these two unrelated articles demonstrate) based on the things we see, yet you’ll find some who will dismiss all this as paranoia, delusions, etc etc. I know for a fact, although I’ve never watched a match with anyone here from UA, that even if we watch a match that doesn’t involve Arsenal, like say the Manchester derby, we will all come to the same conclusions about the way the ref would’ve got this or that decision correct/wrong, which penalty should have been or shouldn’t have been…, etc.

    I guess that means we’re normal human beings, we see things that a normal person is supposed to see. And are in agreement most of the times about the decisions we see in the PL, CL, or even at the world cup, regardless of who’s playing. We generally see the same stuff. What I don’t understand is those who will always deny that the ref got this decision wrong even when blatantly obvious. They’ll never admit the ref influenced the outcome of a match, or how a certain player’s diving/acting had a direct influence on the outcome. I’ve no doubt there’s someone somewhere right now dismissing this strange trend of awarding of penalties from 2008/09 as nothing but paranoia on UA. What is wrong with such individuals? It’s not a question of is there something wrong imo, but a question of what it is.

  45. As I said above, this anti Arsenal bias has been going on for years and years and nothing.

    Chelsea have one bad day at OT (and of course nobody else has ever had one of those have they !!) and the media are all a dither over our terrible Referees.

    You couldn’t make it up.

  46. AL

    Sorry, repeating you a tad there but was typing at the same time.

    Great minds and all that 😉

  47. I agree an article carries far more weight than a post, which is easy to miss. And it’d be nice if such an article could present this data in the form of a graph as well. A graph is more attention grabbing and easier to interpret than a table of digits (know some people just look and think what’s all this mass of figures…). Trouble is I know it’s a lot of extra work…

  48. The perpetrators of the cheating of our club over the years dont really need figures to show what they’ve done. They know. The figures are not actually telling us anything new, only making the picture a lot clearer. Kudos to you my man, for the good work. The bias against Arsene and Arsenal have suddenly become too obvious to be ignored. It would now be almost criminal for those who have these facts to keep quiet and do nothing. But meanwhile, let’s keep doing our best to become the team to beat. Arsenal is actually better than the table suggests at the end of the past four or five seasons, taking all of these ‘errors’ into consideration. Someday…

  49. If these stats where against Chelsea or United they’d be all over SKY and Talksport as irrefutable proof.

    As they are against Arsenal they will be totally ignored, or possibly mentioned but ridiculed as the ranting’s of deluded Gunners.

  50. Just did a quick tabulation of penalty decisions from 2004 onwards for Arsenal, Chelsea, United, Liverpool and Man C. Not sure if the formatting will hold and not throw everything all over the place. Also did a graph but not sure there’s a way of embedding it into this post(didn’t have time to look into it), and if anyone is keen on writing an article I can send the graph to them. Please note 2004 means season ending in 2004, and so on. And these figures are the nett between for and against.

    A C U L MC
    2004 2 1 2 5 -1
    2005 0 3 1 3 1
    2006 7 1 1 2 -1
    2007 8 2 1 6 1
    2008 3 3 6 0 -2
    2009 0 1 1 3 3
    2010 -2 7 6 -1 -2
    2011 -2 5 -1 0 5
    2012 -1 -1 8 2 5
    2013 -1 10 6 1 4
    2014 -3 6 1 8 6

  51. As I suspected, the formatting gets rid of any white space…hopefully the table makes sense.

    But if we look at the fact teams like Chelsea, utd or city would get as many as 8 penalties nett per season, then its easy to see why these sides have been winning the league these last few years, given these penalties are usually awarded to decide the outcome of a match(in other words, controversial). So if say 8 out those 10 penalties Chelsea got in a single season decided each particular match they were awarded in, that’s a potential of 16 points Chelsea got they shouldn’t have(assuming the match would have finished in a draw but the pen tipped it in Chelsea’s favour. NB I picked 8 out of the 10, as possibly one or two may have been deserved penalties. But not all 10!). The opposite is equally true for a side such as Arsenal, if not worse, when we concede these penalties.

    It also becomes clear why/how Liverpool nearly nicked the league last season, looking at their nett of 8 (potential of 14 to 16 points gained). Incidentally in most cases the side that had the highest nett also won the title for that respective year(except bungling Liverpool last season, but even then they threw it away!). Where the side with the highest did not win then the side with the second highest would win, clearly showing how these penalties tipped the scales in favour of the eventual winners. It’s not rocket science to see that we have been getting robbed all these years. Riley, we know what you’re up to!

  52. If Gary Monk can in public,demand a meeting with Riley…..why can’t someone of the stature of wenger?Either,the club don’t recognise the bias, they think nothing will be achieved by taking it on or they think they can defeat it. I fear the club and or manager are a bit on the myopic side to all this and if that is the case, it amazes me.
    I wish the club would do more, and like Gary Monk, do it in public. Ivan is a powerful man, he should make Riley squirm.

  53. @Mandy Gary Monk got nowhere. He had to bottle his reaction when another penalty was ‘not seen’ with the comment about 2 keepers.

    The PGMOL & Riley have dictatorial powers and Football is kicked about to their tune. Ivan will have to take the evidence in whatever form and approach the court for arbitration of sport. That might have some effect. On the other hand it might have a backlash far worse than the cheating.

    The fans are the only ones with power. We need to demonstrate. We need to show our distaste for the poor level of officiating across the board. Only then can we show the detail.

  54. Mandy
    It’s inconceivable to think the club may not be aware of this bias. Anyone on the street can see this, the reason I ‘joined’ UA is because I was fed up of seeing this bias day in day out with the media whitewashing all of it that when I stumbled upon UA it was like coming across an oasis in a desert. I didn’t need UA to tell me there was blatant bias against Wenger and the club, rather it just confirmed what I’d been seeing and the reasons behind this. Just as Menace, this is abuse of power at dictatorial levels that intervention needs to only come from a higher office, such as the ministry of sport. The only other party that could have an effect is the media, but we all know how complicit they’re in all of this. Monk will suffer, trust me, just like benitez did for daring to challenge ferguson. I know your comments are borne more out of frustration than actually believing that the club may not be aware, but there’s nothing Wenger will do that’ll not make it worse.

    Again like Menace said, we as fans are the most powerful element in this, and there will be minimal fallout in anything we do. A demonstration is a sound idea, and I’ve suggested flying a banner before a kickoff with a simple message such as ‘why only 16 refs in the PL’, or another very simple message. Anything to grab the world’s attention to this cheating, to get people talking, and kick those in the media into acting. Not sure I got this right but utd fans paid something like £800 to fly those moyes out banners and another one mocking Liverpool. I’d be more than happy to contribute one eighth of that fee alone! Either something like this or we march in London showing our displeasure. That will mean this can no longer be ignored or washed under the carpet coz someone will say hang on, there might be something here.

  55. @Al, really, bias against Arsenal. Where’s the proof? I suppose it’s because we don’t win the league every year. Most fans aren’t interested because they think this conspiracy theory is a load of rot. I talked to several Arsenal fans and they found such ideas absurd. They’re not anti Wenger either, quite the opposite, but they realize that a team good enough to win the CL and league costs a lot of money. Witness the amount City and Chelsea have spent in recent years and you know exactly how much investment is needed. Money spent wins you the big prizes, unfortunately that’s modern football and it won’t change any time soon. The club realize this, that’s why we have the Emirates and why we are slowly spending more money on better players. Sanchez cost over 30 million and you can see why. Ozil was more expensive and though his impact is not as obvious he’s still in a different league to nearly every player in the EPL.

    And why oh why would Arsenal be singled out for such bias? I’ve never heard one sensible argument for that yet.

    I’m sure my opinions will bring down a hail of abuse as that’s how most of you debate. Oh well.

  56. @Chapman’s Ghost

    ‘@Al, really, bias against Arsenal. Where’s the proof?’

    There is no proof but there is a stack of evidence which points pretty conclusively to there being a bias against our club. Just about every undesirable stat table we sit at the wrong end. Why? What is the alternative to the bias theory, oh yes, it all evens out in the end which theory this site has shown is not the case. Come on ghost, educate us.

  57. @ Chapmans Ghost (November 3, 2014 at 8:21 am)

    You mean:

    Andy Carroll cost over 30 million and you can see why. Torres was more expensive and though his impact is not as obvious he’s still in a different league to nearly every player in the EPL.????

    Also, are the penalty stats presented here not sensible enough for you?

  58. I put this on the previous thread before coming here but following Chapmans inane ramblings above it seemed more appropriate here.


    November 3, 2014 at 9:41 am

    Chapmans ghost

    How does outrage at those statistics equate to ‘paranoia’ in any way, shape, or form?

    Those statistics are neither ‘perceived’ or ‘imagined’.

    Those statistics are a disgrace, that’s what they are.


    a) Are you suggesting those statistics are made up?

    b) Are you suggesting they are irrelevant, and if so why are they?

    c) Are you suggesting it seems credible for one team, the same team, to constantly get more cards than any other team, EVERY YEAR?

    d) If so, are you suggesting Arsenal DESERVE to get more cards than anyone else?

    e) Are you suggesting it is an accurate reflection of reality that we are awarded less penalties than any other team?

    f) Are you suggesting it is an accurate reflection of reality that we concede more penalties than anyone else?

    Chelsea +30 Arsenal -10 Please explain that utterly unbelievable statistic. That is a fact. That is a joke. that is a disgrace.

    We have had more hand ringing and head shaking from the media over one match of perceived poor refereeing against poor old Chelsea and there whinging Manager than we have had, and will ever get, for TEN YEARS of similarly poor treatment against us.

    I look forward to your answers.

  59. Anyone who claims that Untolders are conspiracy theorists need to see a doctor. As the sporting psychologist says their Chimpanzee has taken over.

    The stats on here are incredible proof of bias. The media has so much power, it gets some intelligent people to allow their chimps to take over.

  60. What is even more interesting is that the stats services that used to be available are one by one being closed down through legal challenges. The latest to fall was EPLindex which provided detailed numbers by game by year for things like possession, free kicks, etc…
    Its getting harder and harder to get hold of statistics that can raise questions about bias.

  61. @jambug its also very interesting to note that City’s penalty fortunes have drastically improved. Ever since they were bought by oil money. Now of course that can be explained away by the fact they are now much better, have a lot of possession and therefore more opportunity to win penalties. At least it could be explained by that if it were not for the fact that Arsenal – also a team at the top in term of attacking possession in the final third – seem to have the opposite happen to them.

  62. Jayramfootball

    Funny that isn’t it, when you consider how much relevance is placed on statistics by virtually every other sport, Cricket, Baseball, American football, Rugby etc. etc.

    The truth is the whole World revolves around statistics. Business projections, Banking, Investments.

    Anyone who denies the relevance of statistics is simply in denial, full stop.

  63. @ Chapmans Ghost (I can’t believe I’m wasting my time!!!)

    It’s very easy to refute something whilst not providing evidence. Given Walter and the team do actually provide statistical analysis in support of their arguments one can only assume that you have another agenda.

    I believe the phrase is ‘put up or shut up’. You sound far too much like the media just making spurious and unsubstantiated claims which you will not (or cannot) support.

  64. AL, Excellent, thank you for your informed contribution. You have eloquently proved my point.

  65. So tell me what are you lot of windbags going to do about anything.

    Let me paint you a scenario. You will send your findings to where? And let’s imagine you put the whole world in court, as you believe the whole world is against Arsenal. You’ll wander into court with all your findings and firstly you’ll be accused of bias because your Arsenal fans. You’d be completely laughed out of court just as we’d laugh at Spurs’ fans going down the same route. But you’ll fight on with Walter’s ref reports which again will be easily discredited because he came to his conclusions by watching the game with access to completely different views of any incident from the ref. His advantage will be mercilessly exploited by the prosecution, never mind his bias. And everyone will think Arsenal fans are so full of sour grapes you could make a barrel wine out of them.

    I’ll grant you one thing though, it seems our players aren’t diving enough to get penalties.

  66. @CG so now you think that penalties occur from diving. The hand in the air deflecting the ball in the penalty box is scotch mist.

    The courts will not laugh off everything because even they are under scrutiny for child abuse. Corruption has a way of seeping through the cracks & getting found out.

  67. @jambug

    I am just back to town (nice win against Burnley, kind of different to read the Untold thread not knowing the score). I seen Andrew put up some fouls per card data, and now you have put up some penalty data. As part of what I want to get done before heading back to the farm involves Monte Carlo work, I may get a chance to do some computation intenseive stuff with your and Andrew’s numbers. Unless you were going to do something else with them?

  68. @Menace, I think you’re a little naive. In what world do you think a gang of supporters will prove to a sceptical world that their though own team is being cheated.

    To have a chance of making a solid case you’d have to do the following: scrutinize every EPL game over say a period of five years and see how many teams are denied penalties. Then to make your case even more watertight you’d have to work out whether the ref had a decent view of the incident, the other officials too, because remember they don’t have access to video replays and all the numerous angles available to video watchers. Of course all this will have to be done by an independent body, not a collection of disgruntled Arsenal fans. That’s just the obvious stuff, more finer points would have to be examined.

    And whatever you do don’t let Al into the court because he’ll just tell the judge to piss off if things don’t go the way he wants, the poor love.

  69. 4 penalties alone in the cup final with the ref having a perfect view…. and nobody talked about it. Well not in England of course. My match reporter was stunned by the ref missing them each time. But he isn’t English so will probably be just a stupid person. Maybe a disgruntled Arsenal supporter?

  70. @Walter,I’d say three definite pens. I can’t recall whether the ref had a perfect view or not. Nobody talked about it because we won, that seems to be a common theme, that penalty shouts are forgotten if the team that doesn’t get them wins. And anyway that’s just one game, you can’t win your case on one game.

  71. Chapmans Ghost

    You’ll find the stats you where looking for on the other thread are on this thread.

    Just so you are in no doubt as to the stats I refer to I have put them here followed by the list of simple questions:

    Penalty awards;

    Actually here is a list of all 6 of the top teams since 2008/9

    Chelsea +30
    Manchester City +22
    Manchester Utd +18
    Liverpool +13
    Spurs -8
    Arsenal -10

    Arsenal are the only team to have conceded more than awarded in every season.
    November 3, 2014 at 9:41 am

    And some simple questions.

    -How does outrage at those statistics equate to ‘paranoia’ in any way, shape, or form?

    Those statistics are neither ‘perceived’ or ‘imagined’.

    Those statistics are a disgrace, that’s what they are.


    a) Are you suggesting those statistics are made up?

    b) Are you suggesting they are irrelevant, and if so why are they?

    c) Are you suggesting it seems credible for one team, the same team, to constantly get more cards than any other team, EVERY YEAR?

    d) If so, are you suggesting Arsenal DESERVE to get more cards than anyone else?

    e) Are you suggesting it is an accurate reflection of reality that we are awarded less penalties than any other team?

    f) Are you suggesting it is an accurate reflection of reality that we concede more penalties than anyone else?

    Chelsea +30 Arsenal -10 Please explain that utterly unbelievable statistic. That is a fact. That is a joke. that is a disgrace.

    We have had more hand ringing and head shaking from the media over one match of perceived poor refereeing against poor old Chelsea and there whinging Manager than we have had, and will ever get, for TEN YEARS of similarly poor treatment against us.

    I look forward to your answers

  72. @Chapmans Ghost – you are certainly the only adult in the room. In fact you are truly the voice of reason. Anyone who sees the FA as being corrupt are not worthy of football.

    The FA are corrupt in their thinking, racist and doing the Game a disservice by using a monopoly PGMOL to officiate in the Premier League.

  73. @Chapmans Ghost
    I find the argument that just because something would not hold up in court it should be ignored to be a strange one. At least that is what I determined your point to be – perhaps it wasn’t… but you did ask what we can do about it in a way that made me think you believe it futile to even worry about it.

    Change can happen outside of the courts. If there is bias – and based on the statistics there almost certainly is – then change can be forced on the cheats by shining a light on them. If they are under more scrutiny they will be less inclined to cheat. We don’t need to take them to court, nice though it would be to see the cheats go to jail if we could find conclusive proof.

    The very worst thing you could ever do is to just accept it.

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