By Tony Attwood
“That facts that nowadays the manager clearly hasn’t got a clue about how to set up a team tactically, that his ability to motivate his players is conspicuously lacking and that his Midas touch has gone into reverse, when it comes to developing talent, count for nothing when you consider his stellar achievements of over a decade ago. Why question the present or worry about the future when the past is so comforting?”
That sarcastic comment is typical of the viewpoint that we have seen put forwards a number of times on this site. There is no evidence, no attempt at evidence, but just assertion. It is to be found in commentaries on this site, and as the mainstream view on some other sites.
It is statement as argument. I say it, you know it is true.
And it is something I’ve really got very bored with. I don’t want to argue about this type of statement any more, every point has been made, there is no communication going on between the sides, so it is time to stop. This is the last post of the issue of evidence and the subjects that flow from that.
As a guy who developed an interest in science early on, and who values the scientific method as the best way, indeed the only way, to make sense of the world, I have been shocked at the way things have gone in this debate.
I genuinely did believe, until I started Untold, that most people did understand the notion of science, analysis, statistics, sampling etc. How wrong could I be!
The arguments have raged – including the one that says you can draw no conclusions unless you measure everything which to me was the most bizarre one of the lot, as it overthrew the whole basis of science is overthrown.
And then mixed up with this vision is a third strand – a strand that takes anyone’s views, misrepresents them, and then claims the enemy at the gates can be identified.
Take a look at this
Those who treat any questioning of the manager as disloyalty towards the club are the real AAA. Sometimes, in order to achieve a greater long term goal, it’s necessary to accept a short term loss. That is why a growing number of Arsenal fans would accept a season where we won nothing and didn’t qualify for the CL, if it guaranteed that Wenger would leave. Every abysmal failure like last night (and there have been countless similar failures in recent years) clearly shows that the manager is the problem and that change is essential if the club is to progress.
You’ll note the development of a thesis here. The notion that in order to accept progress you have to accept short term loss, is propositioned. It is a fair point – a reasonable start for debate. But there is no evidence that this is the case no analysis of clubs that have tried this. No questioning, in fact.
No asking what happened to Liverpool? Is there a “growing number?” No, it is a notion, put forward as a fact, and accepted as a fact, and thus a fact. Note also the “countless failures” too.
What there also isn’t is any context. The fact that Arsenal has no absolute right to be in the top four, the fact that Arsenal has a new stadium built during a financial collapse, the existence of clubs backed by fortunes Arsenal could never have behind it….
So we have the next strand. Simplicity of argument.
Just to reiterate, no acceptance of the scientific method, assertion instead of logical progression, the concept of progress only being possible in certain ways, and the removal of context to great a simple point.
I fully recognise I came into all this in a naive way. I didn’t expect to convert anyone, but I didn’t think the entrenchment of notion that science should be overthrown, assertion replace logic, “progress” only be possible my way, and context removed, could be so deep.
I think it is time to wind the argument up now. Everyone knows why Untold exists – it is to counter those four views which some of us think are not only wrong in any debate about Arsenal, but also in any debate. The approach which any self respecting university lecturer would give a z minus to and send a note to admissions asking why this person was allowed into the institution.
But as promised before, I will end up with a reprint of a set of statements that one person gave, and then claimed he had given a lot of evidence. It was that claim – that a lot of evidence had been given – that made me think it was time to stop the argument. It is just so palpably untrue in my estimation that I can’t see how to conduct the debate. It is as if those of us who deblieve in putting forward logical arguments with evidence are on another planet from these guys.
But I’ll make a point I’ve made before. Untold doesn’t refuse to publish views that are different from those of myself and the other regular writers on the site. What we don’t publish are contrary points which show no evidence and logical debate whatsoever. And we don’t because there are already so many websites out there which do accept this overthrow of science and logic as the norm. So the anti-science anti-logic anti-context writers have plenty of places to express themselves.
The writer made this point…
Tony I have used stats and evidence to back up my point.what part of being 12 points off Chelsea ,being out of the title race in November, being out worst start in 30 years and winning one fa cup in 10 years is not true??
And here are the posts which he had posted before and which he claims contained stats and evidence. [Incidentally no matter how you measure it this season wasn’t the worst start in 30 years – but then there is also the point – why doese the start matter? We had a crummy start to the Second Double Season but won the Double (ans the title suggests). But that is how this debate goes – make a point without actually expressing coherently why it is important. Would it matter if this was the worst start in 30 years if the outcome was good?]
1. The referee was a disgrace yesterday!!Everything went the way of the spuds.
2. Mandy… Dont think kronke demands any sort of success apart from finishing in the top 4 .Which in turn makes him money
3 ob1977 If he didn’t take money out of the club we would be more competetive and surely have a higher chance of challenging for major honours and not just chasing 4th place year after year.Surely that is what we all want unless you are happy with mediocrity.
4 What is it with these cheating referees .We have been assaulted all over the pitch.Definitely a conspiracy to stop us winning the league..
5 Tony lets hope that some of the extra money filters down to the fans,some of us who are already paying £1200 a season for their season ticket.Its stated that players earn enough and none of that money should go to improved wages,i second that and also that should extend to managers who also are earning a fortune as well.Why can’t we get back to rewarding good performances ??
6 Menace You keep going on like most on here about all our injuries caused by being ASSAULTED on the field of play and not getting protection from most of the referees that are cheating.Why are they cheating???Who is telling them to cheat???There must be a leader of this group.And do you think this group of cheats extends into europe and we will be cheated by european referees???Is it a worldwide conspiracy???And who is the leader???Maybe sepp blatter has got it in for arsenal.I would like to hear your answer.
7 That was as ad as I’ve seen in ages.an awful team performance from players and manager. OMG because Danish can tell the truth and it doesn’t conform to your thinking that everything at arsenal is rosy doesn’t meet that he’s crawled out of a sewer.some of you on here are completely blinkered and cant see that our manager probably has taken us as far as he can.
At least this time you can’t blame it all on the referee and opposing players.
8 Congo.Have you ever played football? It had nothing to do with luck.we were outplayed and tactically out thought by a team who were missing many key players and we’re recognised to be the worst team left in the competition.
Why is it that if we can’t blame the refs,opposition players,pundits and injuries we can still blame it all on luck.
9 Tony please stop there with your comparison with giroud and Henry. Your making yourself look stupid.The only thing they have in common is their both french. thierry would of got in a world eleven in his day.giroud on the other hand wouldn’t get in any of the other top 6 pre league sides .
10 Tony You are saying that people who post on here have to agree with what you say or they will be banned.Everyone who has an opinion (and people have different opinions) from yours are going to be called children??how very strange .Some posters on here can see that whilst you post figures and stats on here from the last 2 months and class them as superb ,stunning , amazing and incredible the real truth is that most think that the team and manager should be doing better than what we are.The main stat showing that we are 12 points off Chelsea ,we’re out of the title race in November and had the worst start in the league for over 30 years.Hell we have one one trophy in 10 years.
11 Can I politely ask you why my post is in moderation??is it because I dare to have a different opinion to you tony?what I am sing is that you only want people to post on here who are in total agreement with you and think your posts are brilliant.
Anniversary of the day (proving that the last game is not always an indicator of how things are going.
- 2 March 1998: WHU 0 Arsenal 0. 27th league game of the 2nd Double season The second double: part 1, part 2, part 3.
- Over half of the 92 league clubs have gone into administration this century. What next?
- Does spending on transfers automatically bring success? Arsenal compared to the rest.
- Manchester City v Arsenal: the team and the FA Cup
- Has Arsenal now caught up with Manchester City?
- Manchester City v Arsenal: the referee and the FA Cup