By Walter Broeckx
From the moment Petr Cech signed for us I was interested to see the reaction of Chelsea supporters. Now we have our own private Chelsea supporter over here but unless I have missed it he didn’t comment too much on Cech coming to Arsenal. He did when the rumour was spread and gave his opinion on the one weakness he had spotted and on the many strong things he had noticed all these years.
But alas for Cech things inevitably got a bit overheated. Might be the weather of course that causes people to overreact and lose their minds as we are not really used to the extreme hot temperatures we are having for the moment. But still what was said and published on the internet and especially on twitter was pretty disgusting to see.
Cech received death threats. Even worse his family was also threatened. I am not going to repeat the threats but it was nasty and you probably have seen or heard about it. In fact I have heard that one person has been arrested based on what he wrote and others have quickly been thrown out of Twitter or have deleted their account in shame. I still hope that they will not escape the punishment they deserve.
Saying someone is a traitor as we have done in the past ourselves when we talked about how Fabregas or Van Persie have treated Wenger by stabbing him in the back with a dagger, is one thing. We, or at least Untold, never called for bodily harming one of the traitors. A player who has been our captain, pretending to be not just a Gunner but a Gooner. And who then forced his way out of Arsenal just when the team and the club needed them most.
This reminds me of the story of one of the board members of the official supporters club of which I am the president (Arsenal Belgium). He works as a youth coach for a top division club in Belgium and they went to play in the tournament a few weeks ago that has Van Persie’s name on it in Holland. And as Van Persie was there, as he always is when the tournament is played, he got the chance to meet him face to face. And on such occasions of course everyone is just licking whatever body part Van Persie is presenting to them, saying nothing but nice words.
But our board member just gave him a hand and said : ‘I once was a supporter of you’ and the smile on his face ran away in an instant. He knew what, why and when in an instant. Of course Van Persie knows deep down inside what his actions meant. I could add that since that day Arsenal have won more trophies than Manchester United. But that is another story. But the behaviour from Van Persie on how he treated Arsenal and Wenger will haunt him for the rest of his days. And all that for one PL medal. One he could and should have won with Arsenal if he would have had the guts to stay.
I think that is the way to act if you feel annoyed by the behaviour of one of our ex-players. You can tell them in simple and polite words what you think of them. No need to say that you want him dead and kiss his family goodbye for the last time and other explicit threats.
Now of course we, as decent Arsenal fans, can be upset about such threats. We should be upset. As it is passing a line that you shouldn’t pass. Certainly not in the crazy world we are living in these days where too many people are being killed for …. yeah for what…. sad, sad, sad, sad…..
There are enough lunatics out there who seem to take a lot of pleasure in killing others for not having the right thoughts, skin colour, believes or even having the same believe but a different version….
So no need to step over the line of death threats or bodily harm. But that it heart a few Chelsea supporters can be understandable. So if they put a picture on line with Cech and give him a snake face I can accept it and even understand their feelings. We have been there also. Losing one of your legends to a nearby rival can hurt.
But when I heard about the death threats I immediately thought about Ramsey and Wenger. Because our own ‘fans’ (I will not call them supporters as they clearly were not supportive…) have been doing the same thing for years with Aaron and Arsène.
I remember a nasty character twittering each time the official Arsenal twitter said that the cameras are in place for the press conference who replied with words that went close to or were the exact words (can’t remember them): “and hopefully the snipers are in place also”. After a somewhat heated discussion when I called him out on that, I blocked him so don’t know if he is still out there.
But what is worse? Wishing Wenger dead when he is still representing the club you claim to support or wishing a player dead that left your club for a rival club. BOTH ARE COMPLETELY WRONG but let us not pretend that all Gooners are saints when it comes to such things. Alas….
Or what about Ramsey? When he went through his learning period after recovering from his terrible injury. The abuse and ‘die you ********’ he had to endure by Arsenal supporters still make me throw up my breakfast when I think of it. On more than one occasion I have seen some ‘fans’ wishing him to break his leg again and never being able to play football again.
Yes, we should strongly condemn the threats against Cech. But we should also remember that we have such vile persons in our own fan base. I have always fought such behaviour and tried to expose them. And I will continue to say that such things are not acceptable. We can call people names and indeed that is a bit part of being a supporter of a club, but never go along the sad road some have taken. I really do hope the police and justice department can punish them.
And maybe we should judge the Arsenal supporters by the same words as Cech did about those Chelsea ‘fans’. By calling them out as not really supporters.
Footnote: Some time back, following one particular incident the publishers of Untold sought police advice on what to do about threats made online. Their official view was simple: if someone writes something on line which would be illegal if it were said face to face, then it is a crime, and must be reported, along with full details of the source of the comment (via the IP address etc etc). I believe most major on-line forums follow this view now. Tony
Today’s Anniversary:
2 July 1999: Steve Bould sold to Sunderland for £500,000. He had played 287 league games for Arsenal. He returned in July 2001 as youth team coach, became head of the under 18s, and then Arsene Wenger’s assistant.
Yes, Chelsea have always had a thug minority in their fanbase, just as we have had our idiots too. I will never agree with what RVP and Cescs did, but at the time, maybe they felt a bit of trophy panic, assumed the club for whatever reason was not going in the right way for success so jumped ship. I will always cut VP a bit of slack as he gave 100 percent right up to his last game. Even nasri said he was willing to do his best until the end of his contract, just not sign another. Cesc….best not get me started, but he does not deserve abuse.
The fact is, there are too many sad individuals out there who cannot get a job, can’t get laid but are choosing increasingly unpleasant ways to vent their frustration on the rest of the world, some even convince themselves they have a Devine right to do so. People issuing death threats on the net are cowards, and often sad teenagers who never leave their room. Youth unemployment is a scourge, but not sure I would be rushing to give some of these types a job.
Walter your words are so true.. But Peter Cech cant be compared to Van Persie.. He was our superstar and we had nurtured him and supported so well during his injuries
Cech’s case is more similar to Kolo Toure or Clichy.. Cech had a genuine issue, he wanted more playing time and did not want to leave London..Van Persie is more comparable to Campbell maybe
I can’t agree with your comparison of the Cech / Van Persie situation. Petr Cech was dropped to the bench and made to play 2nd fiddle to a kid, while Van Persie was treated as to a god and was a guaranteed starter every week. Cech went to the club owner and asked to leave for first choice football, Van Persie did his talking in an open letter in the press to agitate and engineer a move to get more money. No comparison!
What van Persie did was worse than what Cech did in my eyes. Cech’s not first choice in his position anymore at Chelsea whereas van Persie was. Plus van Persie released a public statement criticising Arsenal’s policy at the time. Either way, death threats are out of order whatever the circumstances – I wonder if these keyboard warriors would ever have the balls to repeat their threats face-to-face. I think we all know the answer to that one.
Footballers leave clubs, like others leave jobs. Really, I just don’t get all the hand-wringing about it. We all change jobs; for money, for career, for location, for a challenge. Why should it be different for footballers?
Van Persie and Cesc, it’s not as if they learned their football dribbling a ball up and down the Blackstock Road. What do we expect of them?
And yes, I know people are going to say we looked after them for years and in Robin’s case the injuries etc. But really, we’re just projecting our loyalty fantasies onto them. We’d all move for a better job, no-one is going to say,”Well, you know, my line manager has been like a Father to me.”
Not much more to be said really. Some really do not understand how to express themselves and resort immediately to being aggressive and threatening. (We see this when reading comments all over the net). I would like to think that it is mostly young people who would/could do such things, but 1: some young people are so much more grown up, and 2: some grown ups are still foolish. Whoever they are, they need to be put away for a little while. I’ve always said if we want something stopped, the punishment has to be a little more than just a basic slap on the wrist regardless of age.
Love that about “The board member and RVP”, could be a movie title too. 🙂 He must have surely felt and really understood his big mistake that day, and the repercussions from his mistake are still not at an end. Can’t see ManU keeping him, well only if they do not get anyone else. Still, that will be an example for any of our players who may be tempted to follow suit.
I’m thankful for Untold, where most contributors are level headed. As I’ve always said, players are free to pan out their careers.
Morning All
Private Chelsea supporter here
Strangely enough I started to pen a comment once the transfer was completed but decided that it was most likely that whatever I said it possibly would appear as sour grapes
In Cech you have a keeper who was in the top two or three keepers in the World, he isn’t know although he iis still very good.
I do believe that we have come out of it in financial terms quite well and am slightly surprised you have committed upwards of £30 million over 4 years on what is our reserve keeper when I genuinely believe that Ospina is the real deal and it seems that it his he that will be sacrificed In addition it seems that the message is clear to Schezney that despite being first choice for Poland he will only be a bit part player at Arsenal so that will be interesting to see how that develops
I never boo anyone be they an opposition player or indeed an ex player turning out against us . Players in the main are only really loyal to themselves all will , like most of us, will try and get the best employment package we can supporters have life long affinity to their respective clubs players are rarely anything other than employees. I hope I am reading this article wrong but if anyone were to suggest that ex players who choose to go to a rival deserve stick then sorry I can’t agree with that at all.
Mandy
What a fabulous and well balanced post.
Walter,
Quite rightly you remind we supporters that much of the abuse addressed to our players begins at home. These morons have little grey matter and it shows.
After Cech’s injury and the need to wear a protective skull cap, no-one took much notice.
Now wait for next season when much will be made of it, whenever he plays in an Arsenal jersey. 😉
Walter
If your friend from Arsenal Belgium had a problem with Van Persie , than perhaps he shouldn’t have shaken hands with him.
That would’ve been a grown up thing to do as I’m sure Van Persie doesn’t care to hear any of his nonsense.
Football is a business first and foremost – as you yourself and Tony have been acknowledging for years , so holding a grudge because a player had made a business decision, is childish.
Van Persie left to win his PL medal, that is true , but he also left for a substantial monetary gain over what Arsenal were prepared to offer him.
Yes, he should’ve kept his mouth shut and the letter criticizing the club was a bad idea ,but he’s not the first footballer to have acted stupidly either.
For every Van Persie and Fabregas, who “stubbed Arsenal in the back” there has been a half a dozen of players released by the club or traded , and most of them gave their all to the cause. Did the club betray them and their drems? No, it’s just football.
People who abuse players and managers on social media or in person need to grow the f..k up and get a life.
I can remember being devastated when Liam Brady left us (and, as it happens, Frank Stapleton)because they had come through our ranks and then got ‘poached’ by other clubs willing to pay them a lot more than we were willing or able to.
The fact is that Brady at least showed his true colours and came back to serve the Club for many years afterwards as Academy Director and he remains an ambassador of the Club.
A footballer’s life is short and needs to be maximised upon – and agents will be whispering in their players ear all the time along those very lines.
Some clubs almost totally rely on the transfer market to fill their first team squads, Arsenal at least go in a more balanced direction and have long serving, home grown players in their recent history to prove the worth of that strategy.
How we all react to high profile departures might well be, as Mandy says, as much to do with our own circumstances as anything else.
All we can say is now, as we get relatively richer, the trophies begin to flow and the playing style remains attractive the ‘need’ for players to leave declines and the draw to join the Club increases. A beneficial spiral has been set on course and we should exploit and enjoy it.
Stuart
“But really, we’re just projecting our loyalty fantasies onto them.”
This is where your whole premise falls down.
‘Loyalty fantasies’? Are you sure it’s a fantasy?
It may be in your case, but certainly not mine. Ask Our friend M18, who has, he reliably informs us, followed City around the World, for years and years and years and…………You get the picture. 🙂
There is no fantasy to the love and loyalty he has for City, or indeed I have for Arsenal.
You also infer that nobody, in any sphere of work, would show loyalty to there employer. That is a sad view and I believe an inaccurate one. In my career (when I worked in marketing) I was shown incredible loyalty by one boss in particular, and I never forgot it.
At one point I was ‘head hunted’. I told my boss. I also told him I WAS going to speak to them. My thoughts where, I like where I am, I like my boss, I trust my boss, I even OWE my boss. BUT, if the offer was incredible I WOULD of considered it. But in the end, as good as the offer was(more than I was on) I decided against it, and LOYALTY paid a massive part in that.
So yes, there is such a thing as loyalty, for whatever reason, but of course there is always the issue of looking after yourself as well. I do understand that. But should it be everything?
What I am saying is that there is a massive ‘Grey Area’ when it comes to this intangible issue of ‘loyalty’.
And yes, we all project our own values onto others, that is how emotions and value work. But it’s not just the emotions and values we hold as a supporter but the what we hold as a human being.
I agree with Mandy to a large degree.
Broadly speaking, it seemed to me that the relationships between Wenger and Cesc, and Wenger and RVP, transcended the usual manager/player relationship. At least it looked that way to me.
In conclusion, if you really believe that relationships, be them personal or business, all come down to money, or ruthless ambition, or self interest, then I feel sorry for you.
My relationships are all much much more complicated than that, and LOYALTY is a massive, and important thread that runs through my entire life.
And yes I do project those emotions and values onto others, but alas both Cesc and RVP spectacularly failed to live up to them.
Mike T
The fact Cech was your reserve keeper had less to do with his abilities and more to do with Chelsea’s long term commitment to Cortuois as your nr1.
Arsenal don’t have the lexury of buying every promising player in the world at inflated prices and loaning them out waiting for them to come good.
25 players out on loan is it now?
So when a chance of landing a top three keepers in the world presented itself, Wenger has acted and rightfully so.
Am I the only one on here who finds it hilarious that a Chelsea fan ( a levelheaded one at that) gives a financial opinion on Wenger’s transfer? 🙂
It’s like accusing Warren Buffett of being reckless with his financial decisions.
Dave,
I never intended to compare Cech and Van Persie and their position. Cech considers himself too good to sit on the bench and grab the money. Van Persie was captain, first name on the team sheet and would have stayed that way up to now if he had chosen to stay. I think any decent Chelsea fan will see the difference and will allow Cech a chance to show his class. Of course in one month time they may rue him selling to us. I hope at least 😉
Mike T,
it wouldn’t be the first player to take a pay cut just to join The Arsenal. We had them before. 😉 Must sound amazing for a club like Chelsea 😉
Death threats have no place in modern society – in their more most sinister form, death threats are an extension of criminal and terrorist activity.
Regarding Cheh, I don’t see him being a traitor to Chelski – he is leaving to get first team football having been denied that by the club he was loyal to for 11 years.
van Pursey did betray the trust of Arsenal, not just with his calculating press statement, but by negotiating for six months or so behind backs with the Manures prior to his departure.
I never really saw the point of booing an ex-player when they return.
It’s just so negative and often has the reverse effect on the opposition.
Better to put a your energy into getting behind your own team…
It would be positive if the Chelsea fans give Cech a good reception at Wembley and pay him the respect that he deserves…
football is just a game played with legs by pple.for entertainment &” now business”. now if pple should start sending or posting dead threats for players switching camps, then where is the fun in the game? we at arsenal are always supportive of any player leaving arsenal no matter how painful it is, but not dead threats. we dont support that.the likes of ashley cole, van persie, gael clichy, alex song, cesc fabregas, kolo toure, bacary sagna etc all left in a dramatic way at their primes when the club needed there services the most but hell never cut loose. & we arsenals still remain who we are till date.i say this with all confidence, that no club or manager will do what arsenal fc have done with youths & remain in top plight football till date. not even the self acclaimed the only one jose mourinho. pls let peace reign. where is the fun if players dont switch camps ? plsssssssssssss!!!!!
Chelsea fans, went to France, racially and physically abused a French African in public and sang proudly about their actions. Maybe Chelsea manager should have done more about it instead of cheap insult AW just because Arsenal fans said Chelsea were boring. You know what? Chelsea is still boring, their manager is still a c**t and their fans are still thugs just like MU fans.
The story as I understand it;
rvP sitting in a police cell after being arrested on a charge of Rape.
Most clubs & managers would have stood back to see how this pans out.
AW personally spoke to rvP who confirmed that he didn’t do it, So AW/AFC made a statement in support of his player. God knows what would have been running through rvPs mind at the time but I bet AWs statement lifted some serious weight off his shoulders.
I really don’t think SAF would have done that purely on the word of the young player, although after his solicitors had been through it then SAF and most other managers would have piped up. rvP threw that support back into AW/AFCs face….
As for the 2-faced Spaniard going on strike for his DNA move, that’s equally disgusting.
Jambug, Mandy,
Bravo! Spot on!
On RVP
“negotiating for six months or so behind backs with the Manures prior to his departure.”
“The story as I understand it;
rvP sitting in a police cell after being arrested on a charge of Rape.
Most clubs & managers would have stood back to see how this pans out. AW personally spoke to rvP who confirmed that he didn’t do it, So AW/AFC made a statement in support of his player.”
bjtgooner, Andy Mack,
yes! kudos to you for helping us to remember how such “old” details really matter and can reveal a man’s character after all, even as some will sweep it all under the rug as ‘oh, we’d all do anything for a better job.’ No, all of us wouldn’t betray in the ways of RVP and Cesc’s going-on-strike and CL back-heel gift to Barca. Petr Cech’s leaving against Maureen’s will isn’t on their immoral planet.
Jambug
For me, football has changed and it has changed along with business as the two have come together. There is no loyalty in business; where once we would spend a whole career with an employer, now we change jobs regularly and loyalty is mentioned only rarely. We live in a mobile and globalised world, and so do footballers. It really is just a job. As Rio Ferdinand said, “Loyalty is for fans” and he’s right. The loyalty shown by fans has an emotional base, and it’s great to be a part of, but you can’t expect players to feel the same. There are some exceptions, the rare home grown players like Tony Adams and more recently Carragher and Gerrard at Liverpool. They used to be more common, now they are less so. The world has changed.
Don’t ‘feel sorry” for me, you’ve just underestimated the gap between a personal and a professional relationship. Again, the world has changed here; these two things used to be much closer than they are today.
Excellent article!!
Thing is though; Cech vs our ‘traitors’ can not be compared as to the reasons behind them leaving!!
Ours left for glory/$$$
Cech left because he was not getting game time/finally understood which color of London was best!
Regardless of either of the above – no one has the right to make threats to these players nor their families for goodness sake!!
Poisoning Mother-In-Law.
A long time ago in China, a girl named Li-Li got married and went to live with her husband and mother-in-law.
In a very short time, Li-Li found that she couldn’t get along with her mother-in-law at all. Their personalities were very different, and Li-Li was angered by many of her mother-in-law’s habits. In addition, she criticized Li-Li constantly.
Days passed days, and weeks passed weeks. Li-Li and her mother-in-law never stopped arguing and fighting. But what made the situation even worse was that, according to ancient Chinese tradition, Li-Li had to bow to her mother-in-law and obey her every wish. All the anger and unhappiness in the house was causing the poor husband great distress.
Finally, Li-Li could not stand her mother-in-law’s bad temper and dictatorship any longer, and she decided to do something about it.
Li-Li went to see her father’s good friend, Mr. Huang, who sold herbs. She told him the situation and asked if he would give her some poison so that she could solve the problem once and for all. Mr. Huang thought for a while, and finally said, “Li-Li, I will help you solve your problem, but you must listen to me and obey what I tell you.”
Li-Li said, “Yes, Mr. Huang, I will do whatever you tell me to do.” Mr. Huang went into the back room, and returned in a few minutes with a package of herbs.
He told Li-Li, “You can’t use a quick-acting poison to get rid of your mother-in-law, because that would cause people to become suspicious. Therefore, I have given you a number of herbs that will slowly build up poison in her body. Every other day prepare some delicious meal and put a little of these herbs in her serving. Now, in order to make sure that nobody suspects you when she dies, you must be very careful to act very friendly towards her. Don’t argue with her, obey her every wish, and treat her like a queen.”
Li-Li was so happy. She thanked Mr. Huang and hurried home to start her plot of murdering her mother-in-law.
Weeks went by, months went by, and every other day, Li-Li served the specially treated food to her mother-in-law. She remembered what Mr. Huang had said about avoiding suspicion, so she controlled her temper, obeyed her mother-in-law, and treated her like her own mother. After six months had passed, the whole household had changed.
Li-Li had practiced controlling her temper so much that she found that she almost never got mad or upset. She hadn’t had an argument in six months with her mother-in-law, who now seemed much kinder and easier to get along with.
The mother-in-law’s attitude toward Li-Li changed, and she began to love Li-Li like her own daughter. She kept telling friends and relatives that Li-Li was the best daughter-in-law one could ever find. Li-Li and her mother-in-law were now treating each other like a real mother and daughter.
Li-Li’s husband was very happy to see what was happening.
One day, Li-Li came to see Mr. Huang and asked for his help again. She said, “Mr. Huang, please help me to stop the poison from killing my mother-in-law! She’s changed into such a nice woman, and I love her like my own mother. I do not want her to die because of the poison I gave her.”
Mr. Huang smiled and nodded his head. “Li-Li, there’s nothing to worry about. I never gave you any poison. The herbs I gave you were vitamins to improve her health. The only poison was in your mind and your attitude toward her, but that has been all washed away by the love which you gave to her.”
Following up on your joke Brickfields.
In the news, are statements about Septic Bladder having a clean conscience. The original interview these come from, was in German. So it is possible that some words are not precise. I don’t know enough German to know if what I propose is possibly or likely.
But, I would offer that Septic Bladder really said that he has a clear conscience. In the limit as the size of anything goes to zero, it becomes transparent.
Gord,
For what it’s worth, along with the UA critique of his shenanigans, I used the nickname Septic Bladder hereabouts starting 3 seasons ago.
Football is NOT like any other employment, and it really sh*ts me when I read such comments. It stopped being so once players started being paid weekly 2,3,4,5 times average person’s ANNUAL salary. The skunk wasn’t being paid pennies at Arsenal, and any player who pretends to be a Gooner, condescends supporters, then leaves for a rival can expect (and deserves, imho) to be booed. Whether that has a negative effect or not overall – who cares – it feels good.
Having said that, criminal abuse has no place in any current, or ex, player’s treatment and needs to be condemned with maximum effect.
bjtgooner
July 2, 2015 at 10:42 am
RVP must have had communication a good 2 years before he left Arsenal. His lying & pretence of considering a renewal all adds up to betrayal. Winning is not everything – how you win also matters. The most important thing for any human is sleeping with a clear satisfied conscience.
having said all that I still think the PGMO are corrupt cheating bar stewards!! 😉 .
On the wrong foot ?
A married couple were on holiday in Jamaica . They were touring around the market-place looking at the goods and such, when they passed a small sandal shop.
From inside they heard the shopkeeper with a Jamaican accent say, ‘You foreigners! Come in. Come into my humble shop.’
So the married couple walked in
The Jamaican said to them, ‘I ‘ave some special sandals I tink you would be interested in. Dey makes you wild at sex.’
Well, the wife was really interested in buying the sandals after what the man claimed, but her husband felt he really didn’t need them, being the Sex God that he was.
The husband asked the man, ‘How could sandals make you a sex freak?’
Th Jamaican replied, ‘Just try dem on, Mon.’
Well, the husband, after some badgering from his wife, finally gave in and tried them on.
As soon as he slipped them onto his feet, he got this wild look in his eyes, something his wife hadn’t seen before!!
In the blink of an eye, the husband grabbed the Jamaican, bent him over the table, yanked down his pants, ripped down his own pants, and grabbed a firm hold of the Jamaican’s thighs.
The Jamaican began screaming: ‘You got dem on de wrong feet!’
Stuart
Don’t ‘feel sorry” for me, you’ve just underestimated the gap between a personal and a professional relationship
Firstly, I apologise for saying I feel sorry for you. I can sense from what you are saying, it is an observation rather than a personal emotion.
I agree this is a much more transient World, not only in business, but in personnel life, than the one I inhabited when I was young.
But….BUT…even in this cynical World, surely there is still room for, no, the need for, basic human emotions? Such as admiration, inspiration, trust, love even, and of course, LOYALTY.
If, even in the ‘Professional’ World, it really is just about money and NOTHING else then we are truely lost as a species.
Alas your take on the modern World might well be right, but I really hope, and believe, you are wrong.
The issue of football and business is controversial. To say to treat footballers like normal employees is debatable. IMO, footballers are not employees because you don’t need to be educated to be a footballer. There are no lessons in professionalism, courtesy, respect and ethics for footballers. That doesn’t mean all footballers are uneducated. However, footballers with good up-bringing and culture tend to be very different than others. At the end of the day, it’s the character that counts and Arsenal had good share of both good and bad. Certainly, the bad ones always suffer and regret eventually.
Walter
Wonderful article in highlighting those that find it difficult, in rationalising or controlling their emotions.
Brickfields
If there is ever a person, who has a sense of Humour it is surely you ‘Love it’
Jambug
I agree with your Moral Code and your assessment of others. However in Stuart’s case unless he is playing ‘Devils Advocate’, is he then revealing his experiences in which there is no ‘Loyalty’ or Trust, so is only used self first.
One point I will most of the time agree with Stuart, is there are those of us who really do place Money& Materialism above any Human Values, be it a False Ideal in my opinion, because those two commodities cannot not provide Self peace or Happiness.
I’m sure there is Trust and Loyalty amongst Tony, Walter and the Gang, otherwise this site would not be able to exist.
Keep up the good work ‘UNTOLDERS’