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What’s it like being coached in England? (Contains scenes that some may find distressing).

Dominic Sanchez-Cabello

Like many a young Englishman my footballing upbringing was spent learning to run a lot and learning to kick the ball/player hard. I was taught ‘to get stuck in’, and to ‘if in doubt – kick it out’, the latter piece of advice being particularly important, as I was often in doubt. Technically, I was mediocre. But at the age of 13 an early growth spurt made up for that.

From a young age I have a clear memory of an irate red-faced man on the touchline blurting his football wisdom. Perhaps it wasn’t always the same man; I expect many who watch youth football become irate, but there was always someone fulfilling the niche.

When playing, the severity of the situation was always made clear.   Indeed who wouldn’t want to be profoundly aware that beating Tamerton Foliet would cement Saltash United under 10’s chance of playing 1st Division Football the next year?

And it is also probable that if we didn’t understand the implications of being demoted to the Devon Junior Minor 2nd Division then we wouldn’t have brought our best form to the perennially angst-ridden Tamarside away. Thank heavens we did, because would I be the Man I am today, if at that young age I was forced to hone my footballing prowess on the obscure fields of SB Frankford, or worse still: Southgate Rangers.

To many, that red-faced man is just an enthusiastic nuisance whose encouragement is heavy-handed. And I would agree that he isn’t a calculated mastermind, wittingly undermining the progress of British football. But he is doing it nonetheless.

For every player that enters the game, in every village club across the land, there will be a red-faced bloke; instilling feelings of competitive angst in those he is watching.

And the result is that it can go one of two ways; the player becomes reserved and nervous or he becomes overly physical and impervious to tactics or reason. In both cases, both of these players will lack imagination and technique.  For if they haven’t been imaginative and uninhibited at the age of 9, what chance will they have of being so at the age of 24?

It is pretentious to say otherwise: there will come a time in any life, where winning (whatever that may mean) becomes a central concern – biologically it is a predisposition. One can either yield to it early, or one can postpone it as long as possible. Football is no different.

At a young age where certain aspects of your game are instilled for life, where body balance, technique and all foundations are laid, you have two choices.  Either you concern yourself with the pressures of beating an opponent, or you can simply train to improve yourself.

Now in British football the former is often the preferred way. And it is justified with a phrase along the lines of: “the earlier you learn to compete, the earlier you learn to win.” But surely the better you are at football the more likely you are to win consistently.  For being better at football is surely preferable to having a competitive attitude.

One can always acquire a competitive attitude later in life; it is far harder to become more skillful or to improve your technique.

Being better at football or having a superior team is what really matters. When someone describes a team as having a better competitive edge or ‘wanting it more’, what they really mean is that team is better, be it tactically or technically.

It pains me to say it, but Manchester United haven’t been the best team of the Premier League era because of their ‘winning mentality’ or their ‘considerable mental strength’. They’ve been the most successful because they were the biggest club with the greatest means of producing and attracting the top players. They haven’t bought the players who displayed great determination in youth football; they’ve bought the players who have honed their skills religiously and methodically from a young age.

Were Ronaldo and Messi nervous as young players? Were they afraid to try things or to be imaginative through an overbearing fear of criticism? Who knows, but one would imagine not, seeing as we now watch them undaunted in Clásicos and champions league finals alike.

Does a player believe he can win because he has a ‘great mental strength or does he have this mental fortitude because he knows he’s better than his opponent?

And there is the difference, youth football in Britain looks to cultivate the winning mentality without honing the techniques to underpin it. The belief that you compensate for technical inferiority by being physically and mentally combative is true to a point, but at international level, where the players are better and the referees have differing attitudes, that typical British graft is far less important.

An abiding memory of football training was the new methods the manager would bring to training each week. After a coaching course, taken in his time-off from work, he’d return with a new ‘FA-endorsed’ training drill, that Steve from Colchester had assured him was ‘the future’. Two things were a constant with ‘the future’: It was unnecessarily complex and badly explained.

The more cones you use, the better coach you are.

The more elaborate the drill the more cones were used. Presumably youth-coaches are defined on how many cones they can use at one given time.  The more cones you use, the better coach you are.

Little has changed it seems. I was going for a walk recently and crossing my local football fields, I stopped to watch a youth team training. The drill they were doing said it all really. The manager, fully track-suited and armed with a notepad was explaining to a large group of 10/11 year olds that the best way to improve your passing was to practice kicking the ball through 6 large croquet rings 20 meters away.

Naturally none of them could do it and to be honest the drill was flawed anyway as the pitch was far too bobbly for the ball to travel with any precision across any distance.

This must have continued for at least 10 minutes, until the kids got disheartened and I realized that these days watching a group of 10 year olds play football could be frowned upon. The obvious frailties within this method needn’t be mentioned, though I am certain it would have been superior if the players paired up and passed between themselves instead.

Around 14, perhaps coinciding with an interest in girls, I developed a liking for the physical side of football.  I was never a dirty player, but I did enjoy bumping a player of the ball, making a decent tackle or blocking a shot in the same way as I now appreciate a good touch, a piece of skill or a well weighted pass.

Though this was influenced by an irrepressible trait of that age, it was also encouraged by the general attitudes in British football. These attitudes can be changed, though they are deeply ingrained. They are the products of our history, geography and weather – which together have seen our national game progress in a way quite different to the rest of the world.

If someone was to look for a character trend in all the great people the world has produced, they would notice one thing that they all have in common: a child-like enthusiasm for what they are doing. Whether it is displayed in permanent smiles or bouts of mad frustration, footballers are no different.

If I were to compile a list of the players I would never tire of watching, I’d include: Ronaldinho, Maradona, Baggio, Zidane, Ronaldo (Brazilian), Cantona. I cut the list; I’d exhaust my word limit otherwise.

Zidane would canter about the pitch, graceful and composed, but beneath this exterior was a flawed nutcase who’d occasionally escape and head-but his opponent. Cantona had the same gravity, but wasn’t averse to kicking a hooligan when the situation demanded it.

Maradona was the greatest player of his generation but oddly he still felt the need to cheat. That game against England displayed this peculiar flaw perfectly, when after jumping with Shilton to punch the ball into the England net, he later ‘turned like a little eel’, went past the whole England team, to score one of the great solo goals of all time.

Passion followed Baggio like a stalker, perennially smiling, inciting riots in Florence on being sold to juventus and sinking to the floor on scoring that wonder goal against Czechoslovakia. Also, when were Pele and Ronaldinho not smiling? All of these things, good or bad, stem from a strange passion that cannot/should not be curbed. In the words of Eric Cantona: “never grow up, my friends.’

17 July Anniversaries

  • 17 July 1897: Roger Ord joined from Hebburn Argyle
  • 17 July 1940 Joe Baker born
  • 17 July 1965: Dan Lewis died
  • 17 July 2004: Barnet 1 Arsenal 10
  • 17 July 2011:  Gilberto signs for Panathinaikos FC from Arsenal.
  • 17 July 2012:  Carlos Vela joins Real Sociedad for £6m

The books…

The sites from the same team…

36 comments to What’s it like being coached in England? (Contains scenes that some may find distressing).

  • robl

    Thank you, that brings back so many memories.

    My particular favourite (as I was a big fast and totally skill free defender) was being told player x thinks he’s something, let him know you’re there.

    Nothing about reading the game, developing skills, picking a pass, just get to the ball first or even better get the player and the ball.

    Thanks for a great read.

  • Brickfields Gunners

    Nice , very nice and may that child-like enthusiasm and wonderment never wane or cease . What else would make a grown man weep in joy or in dissapointment when 24 men run around chasing a ball ?

  • WalterBroeckx

    Thanks great article on what is wrong with football in some parts of the world (not just England)
    I remember when I was young (some 40 years ago) I started in the youth of my local first division team and even was “selected” as they called it. But illness at a very inconvenient moment in time prevented my development (and I think I wasn’t that good anyway 🙂 )

    I then went to another team and we had a trainer who would go mad when we try to keep the ball in the air in training. So we didn’t do it after a while.

    Later when my kids played football they had a good youth coach who tried to develop their technical skills. But still doing too much tricks was seen as bad. This is some 15 years ago.

    My kids then went out for a tournament in Germany. It had German teams, Dutch teams and we represented Belgium. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw those German and Dutch kids play with the ball. From the first to the last they all could keep the ball in the air as long as they wanted without any trouble. This “forbidden” thing could only be repeated by 1 or 2 of our players but the other kids showed all kinds of tricks that even would be good enough to see in a circus act.

    I knew it was no wonder that the German and Dutch teams were always near to the world top and Belgium was just a midtable team. Now you might say that this has changed (and yes the mentality in Belgium has changed since then) but the current crop of good Belgium footballers are the first to have benefited from this change in policy but also most of them left Belgium at a young age to go to Holland or France to become the players who they are now (Vermaelen, Vertonghen, Hazard, Alderweireld, just to name a few..)

    But to change that you need to have coaches who allow this and who allow their players to develop their technical skills. Running is something you can learn when you are older, being a technical gifted player is something you need to learn at a young age.

  • Brickfields Gunners

    For somethings there is no easy way out .
    No Magic Bullet

    A somewhat advanced society has figured how to package basic knowledge in pill form. A student, needing some learning, goes to the pharmacy and asks what kind of knowledge pills are available. The pharmacist says, “Here’s a pill for English literature.” The student takes the pill and swallows it and has new knowledge about English literature!

    “What else do you have?” asks the student. “Well, I have pills for art history, biology, and world history,” replies the pharmacist. The student asks for these, and swallows them and has new knowledge about those subjects. Then the student asks, “Do you have a pill for math?”

    The pharmacist says, “Wait just a moment,” and goes back into the storeroom and brings back a whopper of a pill and plunks it on the counter. “I have to take that huge pill for math?” inquires the student. The pharmacist replied, “Well, you know – math always was a little hard to swallow.”

  • Andy Kelly

    An excellent article that explains why England will never be anything in international football.

    I’ve said this so many times now.

    Thank you Charles Hughes, FA director of coaching in the 1960s & 1970s, who came up with the techniques that the FA imposes on all of its qualified coaches. This is the man that killed English football.

    Successive FA administrations have refused to reconsider these coaching techniques and are equally culpable.

  • Gerry Lennon

    Please pass on to the new Director of Youth Football, they need to read it!
    Top post

  • Brickfields Gunners

    Praise should also be heaped on Sir Alf ‘wingless wonders’ Ramsey, Howard ‘Sgt.Wilko ‘Wilkinson ,those lovable ‘crazy gang’ of Wimbledon , and their morden era ilk like Pullis.
    Somewhere in between would be George Graham .

  • LRV

    That was spot on mate! A never ending circle if I ever saw one.

  • nicky

    From my memory, the biggest problem facing would-be professional footballers of my generation ( at school in the 1930’s) was GIRLS. Hormones were in full riot gear and sap was rising at the rate of a large forest in Spring.
    One ever-present difficulty was our hair. Most of us had adopted the centre parting style favoured by the Arsenal first team (see Bastin, Drake and the skipper Hapgood).
    In bad weather our Brylcremed locks tended to disintegrate in an alarming fashion, much to the amusement of the watching girls.
    Our outside right actually carried a small comb hidden in a secret pocket sewn into his shorts by his doting Mother. (The guy had told her he needed the pocket to hold his spare chewing gum and all his chums had them).
    Our centre half would never turn out if rain was forecast and he got so paranoid about his hair that a projected wind speed above Force 6 brought him out in a rash and a spot of isolation at home.
    Wayne Rooney would have been right at home in our school
    team. He wouldn’t have played for Man Utd or England OR been as rich as he is…..but he WOULD have retained the full head of hair of his boyhood.
    I’m not sure of the moral of this story. After WW2 I met up most of the team (usually in pubs). Most were bald which they said was due to wearing steel helmets, all that noise, a poor diet and serving in hot countries during the War. One chum, who had qualified as a doctor, said the loss of hair in war-time was almost certainly due to the libido-reducing chemical put in the Forces’ tea.
    As my old foster mother up North was often heard to say “There’s nowt so queer as folk”.

  • John

    Sadly, the terms “get stuck in”, “let him know you’re there”, “don’t let him turn, get up his a..e”, “hit it”, “get rid” etc are still common currency at local levels of football, even up to semi-pro standard, both from the touchline “coaches” and from other players in the team.

    These attitudes are reinforced by press / Match of Day pundit stereotyping, so Arsenal are mocked for playing “Wengerball”, defenders criticised for not reaching “Row Z”, Spain are criticised for playing tiki-taka ad even Barcelona are attacked for having “no Plan B”.

  • Dom

    Great article, brought back memories of a few years ago when I was still playing.
    I think you have touched on the main problem of English football. We have players who are so talented, I played football in a town in Wiltshire and I come up against some cracking young players. These guys had the ability to make it, but what makes it hard for scouts etc… Is the fact that the professional game is so technically orientated now that the youth levels are being left behind and these young stars will never reach their potential. In England you have to be like Messi at a young age to get a chance at a good club.

    I think it is down to the coaches of these youth sides. In Spain, the you g players are playing on pint sized pitches just passing the ball around, improving their technique and vision. In holland it is similar, in Brazil as well. In England we are playing on a mountain biking circuit at times. You can’t get a good rythum going in games because the pitch is so unpredictable, the coaches tell you to hoof it but you want to be better than that so you create something special only to be tripped up by a bobble on the pitch, or the ball has a mind of its own. The only time we trained on a totally flat surface was during winter when we had to play on the astro turf which made us quite a privaladged lot because not everybody can play on that surface. You do see some astro pitches being set up around but they are only used by teams in winter. I think the F.A. is lost and confused, they don’t know what they are doing. Instead of spending money in a multi million pound training facility, they should be spending it on developing the game on the ground, not above it.

  • Adam

    I must admit to having a very different experience as a youngster, we always had a ball at our feet. And from the age of 7 onwards was trained by ex professionals.

    Saying that I do not disagree that we in England are light-years behind some other nations when it comes to training kids or rather teaching them to enjoy the game.

    With kids it’s about time on the ball. Most of us are visual learners so it’s important to have the visual aids to learn from.

  • Adam

    Sorry forgot to add, thankyou and nice read Dominic.

  • AL

    Very good read, and poignant for me too. My youngest son, who I thought was footy-mad, now prefers staying home and watch formula 1 or go swimming instead of going for his 2 hour football practice every Saturday morning. When I asked why he wasn’t so keen any more he said hated the idea of being told to queue up in a line and told to take turns to dribble through the cones, or some other drill, for the first full hour instead of just playing football. Initially I suspected a bullying problem but when I asked another dad who takes his son there he said they are very strict and there was no chance of anything like that happening.

    The contrast between now and what he was before I started taking him for these lessons is remarkable; he rarely plays football on his Xbox any more when it used to be near-impossible to drag him off it to get him to bed, he hardly watches football on TV any more yet he could tell you all the full line-ups of most teams including those from abroad, he mostly uses his Arsenal kit(2013) as pyjamas now or to play in the garden. The list is long and all I know is I have inadvertently put him off football. Had I known it would come to this I would never have taken him to these lessons, and just leave him to develop at his own pace. Even though I later suspected he didn’t like the rigidity of the coaching methods, I wasn’t still sure it could be enough to totally put someone off like that. But thanks to your article I can now see it IS possible.

    He has been to the Emirates a few times, went to the world cup and you could see he thoroughly enjoyed himself. Now the enthusiasm is gone. So there’s another kid who has lost interest in football due to these pointless drills. as someone already suggested, send this to the FA.

  • Georgaki-Pyrovolitis

    You all forget that the ‘never say die’ attitude we have to football ‘won’ us the war! Those pansies in Europe and elsewhere owe their freedom to us….

  • The Awenger

    I am afraid I would have to disagree with you, Al. Drills are an absolute necessity, I went through rigorous coaching in badminton, this was an academy which produced India’s top badminton players, the fact is you have to spend more time off the ball than on it. This significantly improves the quality of your game even though the process may seem a bit dull and rigid but I realized you have to cross the boundaries if you want to make it to the top.

  • Adam

    Georgaki-Pyrovolitis, Does that include those pansies from Greece? Put em up.

    George, how do you separate the men from the boys in Greece? “with a crowbar”. (you know im only messing with ya).

    @AL, are you in England? If so where abouts, Do you think your kid would like jiu jitsu or wing chun? I ask this as I can put you in contact with a friend who trains the cops but between him and his friends they train kids as well.

    My 3 year old is in a little kickers class and I have already noticed he isn’t interested in the activities unless it involves the ball. I might actually time the amount of time spent with a ball and I bet it’s minimal.

  • Georgaki-Pyrovolitis

    @The Awenger at 11:38 am

    Couldn’t disagree any more with you. My son reacted in a similar manner to AL’s son when introducing him to rugby. However, he loves football because he was allowed to play freely from a very young age most of the time. Drills came a little later and were of short duration.

  • Adam

    I forgot to mention AL there’s nothing like taking your kid for a kickabout, mine just wants to run a kick the ball, he doesn’t want to be told what to do, he does the run round the cones bit, but you have to keep them interested and queuing up for a go is not playing football.

    Time with a ball is whats needed.

  • AL

    The Awenger
    Good to hear this worked for you, but unfortunately its not everyone who likes things that way. This is especially true with kids, who usually fail to see the importance of drills. To them football, or whatever sport it is, is fun, and the element of fun should not be taken out that as it is the core principle here.

    I grew up in Africa, playing soccer from an early age on the street. There were no rules, and we would be at it sometimes all day. Obviously others were more keen than others, and these would hone their dribbling skills, etc. I obviously didn’t take my football seriously so didn’t get anywhere. I believe that south american football is developed on the streets/beaches, and not some military-style academy. this promotes individual flair. You can’t substitute what you learn from the street with anything, this is usually where natural talent emerges. I believe there are two types of sportsmen/sportswomen; those who are naturally talented, and those who work hard. The drills, while they support the latter bracket, will probably stunt the growth of someone that is naturally talented if they lose their interest or spend more time being taught how to execute a trick which is not even being taught the right way.

  • AL

    @Adam 11:55am

    Yes i’m in the UK, in the Midlands. Coventry to be precise. That sounds interesting as he does kid-kick as an extra-curricular activity at his school. Thanks.

  • AL

    Of course I’m not suggesting letting kids practice their football on the streets here in the UK because it wouldn’t be possible, and also the infrastructure is there already. But letting them run around with the ball freely like Georgaki-Pyrovolitis & Adam suggested is key. Drills, if necessary, can be introduce at a later stage in their careers.

  • Bootoomee

    AL & The Awenger,

    I have mixed opinion on this matter. BTW, great article Dominic!

    As a teacher, I have some strong but different perspectives on early learning. I agree that children at early age should be allowed to just enjoy themselves while the teacher/coach indirectly lead them to the vital early knowledge that they need to develop or strengthen their skills. I think either extreme of drilling or enjoyment is bad. It is not helpful to give young children 1 full hour drills. It is not helpful to give them one full hour of anything at a stretch. 15 minutes playing time followed by 15 minutes drills might work better.

    I was never any good at football and I have never tried coaching (I hate to make a fool of myself) but I can tell you that young people (in particular under 12s) do not just need to be taught, they need to love what they are learning and be looking forward to knowing more. I find AL’s son’s 180 degrees change to be a bit extreme but then psychology is not my strong suit, so I have no theory here.

    Instant gratification and lack of imagination on the part of the youth coaches in Britain is the cause of the phenomenon that this article addresses. Over here, it is considered better to win ugly with little or no imagination than to lose by playing well and taking technical risks which are key to improvement. It is really worrisome that 10 year olds are not even allowed to just enjoy the game in training. Hints on how to acquire or develop key skills are necessary but overly regimented drills, even important ones, are counter-productive at the very early stages. Just let the kids play with the ball!

    I recall that not long ago, the Spaniards were typically referred to as perennial under-achievers in world football. Well, they are now reaping the reward of their consistent approach to the game. Let’s hope that British teams start playing good even if losing football for now to create a culture of skill over brute force and the next generation might just reap the reward. Or, they can continue to bulldoze their way into and out of quarter finals of international competitions.

  • Woolwich Peripatetic

    I fail to see how ‘a winning mentality’ and technical skills are mutually exclusive.
    Teaching kids to stand their ground, play hard but fair and use their opponents ‘strengths’ as a weakness is basically what the Spanish have been doing for a generation.
    Essentially it is a problem of poor coaches, not introducing competition at too early a stage.
    Drills also don’t have to be boring, one of the best exercises being a race through the cones with the ball, you may have slow kids and fast kids but the best dribbler will always win, so practice can have a marked effect on performance.

  • Bootoomee

    AL (12.26pm),

    I cannot agree with you more!

  • Pyrovolitis, it certainly helped, though there were plenty of other things that defended our freedom.

    Namely:

    The strongest Navy
    Advanced Airforce
    Most Developed Industrial base (aside from America)
    Strong Economy and Credit Rating
    The Convenience of that channel between us and France

    I could charge a Tiger Tank with a sharpened Broom, displaying this “never say die attitude” – I wouldn’t last long. Similarly I could chase Xavi till the ends of the Earth, but my skills as a footballer would still be inadequate. Graft is important, but it isn’t enough. Technique, tactics and imagination are needed.

    Peripatetic, They’re not mutually exclusive, I don’t think anyone ever said they were. Just in England one seems to be cultivated at the expense of the other and our National Team suffers for it. One only needs to see James Milner,Barry… and the rest of them.

  • Mick

    Watching the Vietnam v Arsenal game, 1st half hat-trick for Giroud (and he has hit the post). Not bad as according to lots of the media and AAA ‘experts’ he is rubbish!!!

  • Georgaki-Pyrovolitis

    Dominic @ 2.13pm

    Of course you understand that I was being a little sarcastic…..I was alluding to the many martial metaphors so beloved of pundits of the game…So many of our values with regard to how the game should be played seem to emanate from those required for trench warfare….

    And we didn’t win the war…we were on the winning side…..

  • hahaha, bollocks! Feel like such a fool… detecting sarcasm through the internet is a nightmare. Cracking point as well, judging by the dailies we don’t seem to have ever left the trenches!

  • hahaha, bollocks! Feel like such a fool… detecting sarcasm through the internet is a nightmare. Cracking point as well, judging by the dailies, you’d think we were still entrenched!

  • AL

    Mick, lucky you got to watch the game, unfortunately I didn’t. So, the very average Giroud has managed 5 goals in about 60 minutes of play time. OK, granted it was not against Barcelona, but we have seen some mighty clubs fall in Asia these past few days.

    This just made me smile;
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23341088

  • Mick

    @AL
    As the experts are quick to point out when Man U etc roll over a poor team…. ‘you can only beat what is in front of you’.
    As opposed to when Arsenal do the same it is…. ‘well the opposition was very poor’.
    Our youngsters were all brilliant by the way, especially Gnabry, Ox, Akpom and Zelalem. These four surely have great futures ahead of them.

  • I am so glad this article received the support of regular Untold readers in this way. When I received it, I was really impressed, and then had that wait to see if everyone thought as highly of the piece as I did.

    I do hope between us we are persuading Dominic to contribute further articles.

    Tony

  • Gf60

    Great article Dominic. Thanks. Drills…10 minutes is about the maximum a kid of say up to 12 can take BUT if the drill is explained and then implemented, the reason why starts penetrating. Get the kids to watch The Karate Kid and then explain why drills are useful. Then get them on to the ball.

  • Pat

    Very good article and very interesting discussion.

  • Finsbury

    Wonderful article and comments too.
    I wrote a history of my own brief career as a gr*tty defender elsewhere and my experiences were much the same except I could do nothing apart from make a slide tackle. Imagine the surprise of my infant cricket coach ( who also coached the junior gunners ) who started me on a fun path that led to the Middlesex cricket league when I made the first team at my secondary school for football despite not being able to kick or pass the ball ( I could tackle! And run. All that bowling had to be useful…) I was surprised too. So were my mates from primary school when they lined up for the opponents!

    Eventually I learnt to pass and stuff. Run with the ball and not fall over. From playing with friends who were much better then me, some of who are now proud coaches. One fellow I used to love tackling because he was so damn good now coaches his own team, the U11’s beat Arsenal last year or the year before Arsenal. Don’t worry they beat the tinies too. This talented coach is an estate agent by day.

    Football is about the kiddies for me. More children watch and play football then adults. I haven’t researched that statistic but I am happy to gamble on this one!
    And this is a crazy guess: the German and Spanish FAs probably do too. And that’s why the adopted the Dutch system and scaled it up. All of which has happened in the last period. Mr Low said the German coaches were inspired by the football that they saw at the top of the english league around about the turn of the century, which would therefore include AFC.

    A sad refection upon the path taken here. Without the investment the traditional coaching centres, London clubs, Southampton etc. were never going to churn out players with the same quality in similar numbers. Until the ECB reformed its coaching systems a player like M.Vaughen would have been missed because he was outside the traditional areas for recruiting. Similarly T.Muller is from some village in Germany (i think) and would never have been found unless the net had been enlarged.