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Suarez fails against the top clubs; Chelsea win the mini league

By Walter Broeckx

With only one win needed in our last two games and even that is not really necessary if Manchester City win at Everton next Saturday we might say that the teams in the top 4 will be those that are there now.

The order between the first 3 is not yet set in stone and unless Chelsea falls apart in their last two matches I don’t think we can overtake both Chelsea or City any more. On paper we could still finish in second place but that is not something I am holding my breath for.

As the current top 4 teams have all played their matches against each other it is now time to have a look at the mini league table from those matches. And I must say that this is a somewhat surprising result.

Here are the results of these matches:

  • Arsenal Liverpool 2 0
  • Man City Liverpool 2 1
  • Chelsea Liverpool 2 1
  • Liverpool Arsenal 5 1
  • Liverpool Man City 3 2
  • Liverpool Chelsea 0 2
  • Arsenal Chelsea 0 0
  • Chelsea Arsenal 6 0
  • Man city Arsenal 6 3
  • Arsenal Man City 0 0
  • Man City Chelsea 0 1
  • Chelsea Man City 2 1

And this gives us this as the final table of the mini league of the top 4

Team                       Points
Chelsea                     16
Man City                    7
Liverpool                  6
Arsenal                       5

What you see is that there is one team that has outperformed all the other teams. Chelsea has taken almost all the points there were to take. The only time they couldn’t win against one of the other top 4 teams was at Arsenal in December when they played for the 0-0 and got it. But they won all the other matches. Home and away.

And yet…this might not be enough to win the league. In fact if City win their match in hand it will be City and Liverpool who will lead the dance for the title celebration.

If this turns out to be the case it shows once again that winning the big games is maybe nice for the supporters to brag about but it isn’t a certain guarantee to win the league in the end.

There are only two points difference between Man City in second place in this mini league table and Arsenal. With Liverpool sandwiched in between them.

I also want to point that at home Arsenal were undefeated by the other top 4 teams. But away from home our record was very bad. The City match had rather special circumstances with us not getting a rest after a CL match and some dodgy refereeing decisions going against us.

Liverpool getting a “Newcastle goal” in the first minute didn’t help us at Anfield and the next corner resulting in a goal was something we couldn’t cope with on the day. And the way Chelsea finished their first two shots on goal in our match at Chelsea was somewhat amazing looking at their finishing against teams like West Ham and Sunderland. Against us the ball just flew in the goal and against some lower league teams the ball refused to go in. Bad results when travelling to the other teams grounds and this is something we have to do something about it. Maybe buy a new bus?

Now some might say: it’s all Wenger his fault. He should have offered more to get Suarez from Liverpool. And then it all would have been different. He would have won us those matches. So I took the matches from Liverpool and added the goals from Suarez in the top matches.
Matches Liverpool                  Suarez goals

Arsenal Liverpool 2 0                      0
Man City Liverpool 2 1                    0
Chelsea Liverpool 2 1                       0
Liverpool Arsenal 5 1                       0
Liverpool Man City 3 2                     0
Liverpool Chelsea 0 2                       0

Total Suarez goals:                             0

So in the matches against the other top teams Suarez scored zero, nil, nul, nothing, rien de knots, zilch goals for Liverpool.

I know he scored bags of goals in the other matches. But against the top teams he wasn’t there. Well at least not on the score sheet. Is Suarez a player that only does it when playing smaller teams? It looks that way. So looking at it like that we might have had lots of more goals in the other matches but not that much more goals and/or points in the matches against the other teams in the top 4.

We need to improve our away matches against the top 4. But the fact that we didn’t have or lost players like Walcott, Ramsey, Özil, Gibbs and Koscielny in some of these matches didn’t help us.

But City and Liverpool also need to improve in those matches. They even lost at home from Chelsea. And City have spent all the money they have, just as Liverpool did with the money they don’t  have. Get the players fit for the top matches seems to be the key for us. Or having that wonderful magical striker that can win matches singlehanded? Is he out there somewhere? Well he sure doesn’t look to be around for any of the top teams in the PL.

If Chelsea win the league it will be based on their wins against the other top teams. If Chelsea doesn’t win the league it shows that you have to beat the other teams also. Interesting to see how this will end.

The books

166 comments to Suarez fails against the top clubs; Chelsea win the mini league

  • avatar GooneressNo1

    Wasn’t the Arsenal Man city game a 1 – 1 draw?

  • avatar WalterBroeckx

    GooneressNo1,
    it was, my mistake.
    It doesn’t change the league table however but you are right, I messed it up and just duplicated the score from the Chelsea match.

  • avatar AL

    The suarez bit is quite shocking. Having watched caragher lay into Ozil yesterday as not having truned up for the big games, I wonder what he would have to say about suarez. Hypocrisy again from the pundits, I’m afraid.

  • Walter,

    As you might recall, I once penned a piece for Untold title: “How Arsenal Can Win the League”. The whole article was based on how it is with consistency that teams win leagues.

    On Suarez, isn’t the grass always greener on the other side and thank goodness for statistical data. In those games in which Suarez score ZERO goals, Giroud at least scored once but you hear Gooners go on like Suarez is all that we need to beat Chelsea and Man City. Well, facts are stubborn aren’t they?

  • avatar Quincy

    It would be interesting to see how many Sturridge has scored against top four teams.

  • Did you watch Suarez in the 5-1 match against us?
    He was absolutely rampant and had a hand in most of the goals, even if he didn’t get on the scoresheet.

  • avatar Jr Gunzz

    @jonh so what do u think of OG as our main striker

  • avatar WalterBroeckx

    Maybe having Suarez with Özil and Ramsey around him might have changed his goal scoring record in those matches. But then again… Özil and Ramsey weren’t around for Arsenal in half of those matches either…

  • avatar AL

    Bootoomee
    Agree about consistency. If you look at the number of points we are behind with(7), then factor in games where we blatantly robbed(W/Brom, Stoke, Villa – I’m not even going to include the Chelsea/City games as it’ll muddy things a bit and become too iffy…) we would be first today. And this with all the horrible losses at City, pool and chelsea. Wins in those 3 games alone (which we were robbed of) would have meant we would be two points ahead today. Throw in the injuries and it becomes obvious this was our best chance since 07/08 to win the title, and who knows what might have been had we not had these injuries?

    Even Giroud has conceded that injuries are what derailed our season, yet some on here will continue attacking Wenger as being clueless…
    http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/no-ifs-or-buts-injured-players-cost-us-title-shot-insists-arsenals-olivier-giroud-9297152.html

  • avatar GooneressNo1

    Al painful isn’t it?

  • avatar Mohamed

    Let truth be told, Suarez is simply a world class player. Having not started the league until the 6th round of fixtures then coming back to top the scoring chat is simply phenomenal. If we had him in our team we would be better for it by far.

  • avatar Tom

    The mini league sample presented in this article doesn’t reflect the true Arsenal performance in so called ‘big games’.
    You need to extend the mini league to also include Everton – a direct competitor for CL, Tottenham – a fierce local rival and Man U – historically our biggest rival under Wenger.

    All these clubs happen to be in the top seven of the PL and Arsenal only won 13 out of 36 possible points against them this year .

    If Arsenal had managed to only split points with other top six clubs in the league and get 18 out of 36 , they would’ve been on 78 points and challenging for the title right now.

    This I believe has been the true measure of our failings in the league this season.

  • avatar Pete

    The flip side of this is that Arsenal have won all but TWO games so far against teams in the bottom half at the time we played them (Stoke away and Swansea at home – all the others were in the top half at the time). Compare that with the likes of Chelsea who have stumbled all over the place.

  • avatar Brickfields Gunners

    If someone had told me that we would end up with more than 10 points above ManUre at the end of the season , I’d have taken it in a flash !

  • avatar Alex

    Fact is all top teams failed to counter Mourinho tactics.Call it what ever you want the fact remain Chelsea gained a lot of points.
    Sure it is not glamorous nor it is respected while they spent a bilion to assemble that double deker .
    Arsenal and City i dont think next season will play in his hands.

    The man complain about his strikers rest assured that hr will come with another excuse next season.

  • avatar jambug

    The fact is we have had seasons where we have come out well in the ‘mini table’ but lost to lower teams.

    The art is to get the balance right. If you do you will most likely win the title.

    Anyway for all the criticism we get what is worse,

    a)losing away to quality teams, all be it heavily ? or

    b)losing home and away to poor, even relegation standard teams?

    I would suggest that ‘b’ is worse because with ‘a’ at least you can hold your hands up and say we was beaten by the better side.

    What’s your excuse for being turned over by teams that are substantially inferior to you ? There isn’t one.

    And one last thing, when we did top the ‘mini league’ we got battered for losing at the likes of Bolton, so whatever we do someone, somewhere, will find a way to berate us.

  • avatar Tom

    Suarez’ goal scoring record doesn’t reflect his true worth . He has been by far the closest marked player in the PL this season and he’s been very unselfish in front of the goal.

    Just from my memory ,he could’ve scored 5 or more goals when instead he chose to set up a teammate and a couple instances where Sturridge picked a wrong option instead of passing to Suarez for what would’ve been an easy chance.

    If the rumors of Real Madrid getting ready to pay £75M for him this summer are true , the £40M and 1 does seem like a bargain now , doesn’t it? :)

  • avatar GooneressNo1

    I can’t believe that Real Mad have that kind of money, they must be getting ready to sell a few players.

    Anyway if he goes won’t miss him.

  • avatar GooneressNo1

    So Suarez cut be munching his way through the Spanish League.

  • avatar Rupert Cook

    @Tom, agree with your Suarez point. Nobody has any idea how Suarez would have performed for us as it’s impossible to know how he would have been marked, whether he would have been the target man and not Giroud etc. apart from the obvious problem with this analysis as you can’t transpose these statistics on to our team, it’s all imaginary. Anyway Suarez is a lot more than just a goalscorer.

    How many goals did Giroud score against these teams?

  • avatar bob

    “”The (defeats in the) early away games (at Manchester City, Liverpool and Chelsea) killed us this year. Hopefully we can learn from that.” – Per Mertesacker (in today’s press)

    “Did you watch Suarez in the 5-1 match against us?
    He was absolutely rampant and had a hand in most of the goals, even if he didn’t get on the scoresheet.” – John (today’s UA)

    John,
    The problem is, given your example, that you fully realize (with evidence) that being so a lethal striker does pull (at least) double-coverage, and thereby opens up options for your other players to score. This of course does not fit this manipulation of statistics to show that Suarez – or someone of world class or near to world class stature like him – would not make a tangible difference to any side like us. (Of course, the subtext of this UA argument is no need to bring in another complementary quality striker this summer.)

    To insinuate that the thought that we could have used a Suarez-like striker is “magical” (as Walter likes to do here) is just his playing the hand we have dealt ourselves. Granted that John Henry swinishly lied about Suarez contract played its part against us. But, Plan B, gaining another complement to Giroud from somewhere in the world (that is, findable to our highly-touted scouting group, n’est-ce pas?) faltered.

    A related problem is that Walter & Co. continually invoke the magic of “injury” to explain the cause of our ouster from the EPL title race. The problem is not to have spent on quality backup at as many positions as possible to ensure against the seasons (yes seasons) of chronic disproportionate injuries (due to refshite/orcshite) – and thereby predictable in advance – a condition that Walter has otherwise so effectively documented.

    Hopefully, our hard-won financial position will now enable us to ensure that quality, to take on and overcome the injury-lesson that will continue to afflict us as we challenge for top honors next season. As for those who say “no one will come here to sit on the bench”, I would like to say that when we compete on 4 fronts, there will be opportunity (and given injury, need) for many to rotate and be full (but not full-time) participants in our festivities to come.

  • avatar jambug

    Rupert Cook.

    What are you doing here again.

    You don’t like us. We don’t like you.

    Please explain.

  • avatar jambug

    Ahhhhh

    Isn’t lovely to have Rupert, Tom, and Bob here spreading the love. :smile:

  • avatar bjtgooner

    @jambug

    I agree with you on nearly everything – but I would not group bob, BBCC (boring boring corrosive cook) and Tom together.

    Bob is a fine Arsenal fan, has some very good views and the courage to articulate them.

    Tom likes to pick holes in our set up, and while I have crossed swords with him from time to time, I feel he is a fan.

    BBCC is a deliberately annoying and stirring troll – with the slight possibility that he is under instruction.

  • avatar Tom

    Jambug

    Yes it’s depressing , I admit and it gives me no pleasure but I didn’t pick the topic, did I.

    If you want me to be cheerful than let’s talk about the FA cup. That’s the only bright spot on our season and winning it will give us a solid platform to turn it around in the league next season.
    BTW , I’m gonna be there and if you are, I will gladly buy you a beer or two :)

  • avatar jambug

    Before I start, I love Giroud. I think he is a great forward. I think he is a fantastic team player.

    But, compared to the likes of Suarez, Henry, berkamp, Aguaro etc. etc. I think theres one thing that stops him from being at that elite level, and that is the ability to make something out of nothing.

    With the ‘elite’ strikers you always think they can make the difference. Score a miracle goal when you least expect it, and what’s more they can often do it when you most need it.

    When the team is perhaps not playing great. Not creating much. They pull the rabbit from the hat.

    What I feel with Giroud is that he wont let you down, but he probably wont dig you out of a hole either. If the team isn’t playing great, not creating chances, he wont score, but if we create the chances he will convert a good ratio into goals.

    So as much as Giroud is a very good striker he is very reliant on the team playing well to score. Top top strikers create there own chances with moments of pure genius.

    I have yet to see that from Giroud.

    I feel that is all that stops him from being at that elite level.

    Despite the stats above I believe Suarez is.

  • avatar Rupert Cook

    @jambug, do you own cyberspace? Oh and I love you.

  • avatar Rupert Cook

    @jambug, that sums up how I regard Giroud. You won’t like that will you?

  • avatar jambug

    bjtgooner.

    You are of course right.

    Sorry bob.

  • avatar Tom

    Bjtgooner

    I’m relieved that you consider me a fan but in fact I’m a super fan/supporter and single-handedly have created a small army of new Arsenal fans ( twelve or thirteen or so , it’s hard to keep count of the little buggers) , mostly by bribing them with Arsenal kits, balls etc, so you see I have the obligation to “pick holes in our set up” and to put pressure on people in charge to spend and improve the club so I don’t have to call my seven year old niece and explain to her why the best club in the world got pasted 6:0 to Chelsea , who I told her was not as good as Arsenal.

    You would be surprised how inquisitive a seven year old can be:)

  • avatar Quincy

    Bob, the idea that we have a small squad is rubbish. Our squad is much better than Liverpool’s, who have been fortunate with injuries and were basically competing in one competition this season. Do they have half decent back up for Suarez, Sturridge, Gerrard, Mignolet, Sterling, Coutinho, etc.? No, they don’t.

    Chelsea has had very few injury problems this season, and besides the DM position, are not particularly better stocked in other positions. Ba, Torres and Eto’o, or Giroud, Sanogo, Bendtner, Podolski, Walcott? In attacking midfield Chelsea have Hazard, Oscar, Willian, Schurrle, Salah; we have Ozil, Cazorla, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Podolski, Rosicky, Gnabry. And so on.

    The only team you could argue has a better squad than us is Man City. They have Aguero, Dzeko, Negredo, Jovetic, but other than that our squads are quite similar in fact. Even in defence we’re about the same, since Lescott and Richards barely play.

    No team in the world has two world class players in each position. City has no replacements for Aguero, Toure, Fernandinho, Silva, Nasri, Kompany who are of similar quality. Even Nasri complained recently that injuries seriously hurt their chances in the league! Besides, squad sizes are restricted, you can’t keep buying players to cover for injuries, even if we had the budget, which we don’t.

    The squad is NOT the problem, it’s the injuries. Look how City suffer when they lose Toure or Aguero (not to mention some others). Look how much better we played when Ozil and Ramsey came back. It’s the injuries that have thrown a spanner in our season.

  • avatar jambug

    Rupert.

    As much as it would be fun to, no I don’t own cyberspace, yet !

    What has that got to do with anything anyway?

    All I’m asking is why somebody who disagrees with everything this site, and a vast majority of it’s users, stand for, visits it with such frequency.

    It’s not a difficult question, although it seems to be one you either cannot, or simply will not answer for some reason.

    It’s simple really. This is how I would answer the same question:

    I am here because I support the Club, the players and the manager.

    Now it’s your turn….

  • avatar Rupert Cook

    Jambug, I answered that question about a week ago at length, I really can’t be bothered to write it all down again. Suffice to say I love you all.

  • avatar bjtgooner

    @ Tom & Tom’s Young Guns

    It’s good to note the young fans, lets hope a few young prospects develop!

  • avatar GooneressNo1

    The feeling is not mutual Rupert.

  • avatar Pete

    Never mind Rupert – but where is sperez?

    I do have the sense that our moderators have been a lot more active with the ASBO’s recently?

  • avatar bjtgooner

    Maybe sperez had a nasty accident with airplane glue – as outlined by Brickfields!

  • avatar nicky

    As the only living Arsenal supporter who once saw Herbert Chapman (shopping in a chemists next to Arsenal Stadium at Highbury), Arsene usually ‘phones me during the Summer for a few tips on how Arsenal should proceed next term. This is what I shall tell him.
    1. Buy, during the Window, in those positions where we are light.
    2. Promote from the reserves and returnees.(Campbell is an example). If they are good enough, they are old enough.
    3. The squad must be large enough so that the injured are not returned to duty too early.
    4. Lessons must be learned from the past season when we led the EPL for so long, only to fall by the wayside at a vital stage, due to long-term absences from injured key players.
    5. There should be a re-think on player rotation. It’s used successfully by our rivals.
    6. Gibbs must spend most of his holiday practising to use his right boot.

    There may well be criticism about part or all the above.
    Hard Cheddar….because that’s what I’m still going to tell
    him…

  • avatar jambug

    Pete.

    I just wish they’d deal with Rupert.

    Whatever his answer was, and I never saw it, it doesn’t change a thing.

    He hates Arsenal and Arsene and posts nothing but depressing negative twaddle.

    Personally I’d dump him, but as I don’t even own this little piece of cyberspace, unfortunately I cant….but Tony on the other hand !! TONY, are you there…TONY !!!!!!

  • avatar Gord

    Rodney Marsh is a gentleman.

    Apparently in the past:
    > “I said if Stoke were ever first on Match of the Day I’d drive up there and clean the player’s boots – that’s how confident I was it would never happen,” he said.

    >> All boots cleaned by Marsh will be signed by the Stoke City squad and auctioned off to raise funds for the Donna Louise Children’s Hospice in Trentham.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-27210196

    I don’t think he drove to Stoke, as I believe he lives in Tampa, Florida now. Or at least not all the way.

  • avatar Jax

    The excessive question mark guy is now putting his exclamation marks at risk, and if he keeps it up his caps lock will melt. What a sad fcuck.

  • avatar Jax

    And why choose a name that’s similar to an item of female sanitary wear?

  • avatar Tom

    I think Sperez got banned. His constant negativity was obnoxious . I also think SurferX was banned. His anti- Wenger stands was the reason although he did have a lot of data to back up his views.
    Roopert is next on the list and than probably me.

    Are you there Roopert? Shape up or face the axe :)

    Must stay positive. Must stay positive. Must stay positive.

  • avatar jambug

    Fair play Rodney. Lets hope they raise a lot of money.

    PS. Do you think they’ll get a bit extra for the ones that have broken legs !!!

  • avatar jambug

    Jax

    Is that me you’re talking about ????????

  • avatar jambug

    Jax

    Your the guy that hides behind Rupert aren’t you.

    As detestable as he is at least he has the bollocks to fight his corner.

  • avatar GoingGoingGooner

    For all that I don’t agree with Rupert, and I am also uncertain as to why he posts on a avowedly OPTIMISTIC website, on the whole he is civil and for that I am thankful. Sperez, I thought, was profane and it would seem has deservedly been banned these boards. As for banning Rupert, Tony has been clear that he is a supporter of free speech. Rupert’s ‘cry in the wilderness’ reminds us and challenges us to rise above the negativity that seemingly swirls around our beloved club.

  • avatar bjtgooner

    @jambug

    I take the view rightly or wrongly that Jax has been influenced/corrupted by the corrosive one – having said that there is a chance Jax may come back to the light – but he needs to realize the full meaning of some of his comments. As for the corrosive one – “to the light side he will not return” – but he will try to latch onto others and bring them into his depressive darkness.

  • avatar Jax

    tom
    It was a shame about surferX. Sure he was anti Wenger (naughty) but he was literate and quite funny at times. Like to see him back. I don’t think you’re in any danger though.
    GoingGoingGooner
    I doubt that Rupert sees himself as a voice in the wilderness as he has some support on here.

  • avatar bjtgooner

    @GoingGoingGooner

    As you may suspect I see the corrosive cook in a slightly different light – the result of having read his anti-Wenger comments over the past 18 months or so.

    He is not always polite about Mr Wenger, the team or the club – he is snide, sarcastic, disruptive and rarely if ever backs his comments with facts or reasoning. He is not voicing a justifiable cry in the wilderness – rather he is part of the negative element targeting the club and specifically this site.

  • avatar bob

    “No team in the world has two world class players in each position.”
    Quincy,
    Never said this: it’s a distortion that you or I can easily knock down.

    Let’s consider this: Bendtner and Sanogo are not any competitor’s idea of sufficient back-up or complement (that is, other formation possibilities in game) to one good striker. Still Rubbish, Quincy?

    Surely there’s a middle ground between that and your tribalist defense against as much improvement as possible, which does not mean all world class at all positions.

  • avatar jambug

    GoingGoingGooner.

    I agree that Rupert is civil. I have issues with what he says, not how he says it.

    As for free speech. I don’t think it has anything to do with that.

    If a rock fan turns up at an Opera, he’s quite likely not going to enjoy what he hears. No problem, Leave.

    But if he stays there and starts jeering and slagging off Tchaikovsky is that free speech or being an arsehole ?

  • avatar bob

    bjtgooner,
    Many thanks for making the distinction! No I can exhale :)

    jambug,
    Many thanks for recognizing the distinction. I’ve enjoyed our recent interchanges. I do like to learn from my shortcomings, and to weigh in as I see it. (I do love the Arsenal and wish us only the better.)

  • avatar bob

    p.s meant: “now I can exhale.” :)

  • avatar Gunner6

    Suarez, like any other player, need good players around him. Yes, he has been excellent for Liverpool, but he also had Sturridge next to him most of the time. To say he would have light up Arsenal is ignoring the fact we had a number of players out for long periods. Periods which coincide with our decline.

    Of course, it would have been brilliant to watch Suarez and Ramsey marauding forward. Ramsey’s return alone seems to have sparked the dynamism shown by Arsenal early in the season.

    I won’t even consider Ozil because if we had bought Suarez, we wouldn’t have bought Ozil.

    As for saying UA is twisting the facts by showing Suarez doesn’t score against the other top 4 but creates space for others, is also ignoring the fact that what good is space created when we lost our two most direct players and as such would not pacey players to run into those spaces?

  • avatar GoingGoingGooner

    @jambug I see your point…I just can’t get worked up over his predictable comments. In many ways having his negativity on the site, confirms my opinions and yours, too, that it is way more preferable to be optimistic and positive about our club than negative.

    As for his free speech, I was referring to whether Tony or Walter would ban him or not.

  • avatar Quincy

    Not quite bob. You said quality back up in as many positions as possible. I showed that our back up is as good as Chelsea’s, better than Liverpool’s and a bit behind Man City’s. Your argument that Wenger has refused to spend, and therefore that our squad is inadequate, is just not true. I showed that the problem IS the injuries.

    Let’s compare our strikers to Chelsea’s. They have Torres, Ba and Eto’o. Would you say any of those are as good as Giroud? As far as I can tell, all three of them together are not as good as Giroud. The problem with Bendtner has been his off field antics. He was doing ok until he injured himself scoring that goal, I can’t remember the opposition, so he is comparable to Torres or Ba. We also have Podolski and Walcott who can play at CF. Walcott did very well in that position against the spuds, but then he got INJURED. He would have been a legitimate back up striker, better than any of Chelsea’s strikers. Then we still have Sanogo and Podolski who can play at CF.

    So at the very least, our striker position is not worse than Chelsea’san to me it looks better, if it wasn’t for injuries to Bendtner and Walcott.

    I don’t think you get my argument. Of course I agree there could be improvement, but our squad is not as weak as you make it out to be. Only City’s is better. The difference is that we’ve had vastly more injuries than our competitors, or anyone else in fact.

  • avatar jambug

    @Jax

    “I doubt that Rupert sees himself as a voice in the wilderness as he has some support on here”.

    Yes he does. You, Tom amongst others. Great.

    I said earlier I have problems with what Rupert says. That is not strictly true.

    It’s more that I don’t understand why he has to say it here.

    As my post said earlier, why when you detest everything this site stands for do you have to come here and air your views.

    You know there are other sites that cater for Arsenal fans with your underlying views so why not go there?

    I know how my pro Wenger views can be seen as ‘rose tinted’ but I don’t care. I love Arsenal, Wenger, and all they stand for. That’s why I’m on this site. It was set up precisely for fans like me and other like minded fans who want to enjoy a chat.

    But you come on here, take the piss out of what I think, what I type, how I type, even my name.

    Don’t get me wrong I’m old enough not to be bothered by that, I’m just highlighting the sort attitude you bring to this site. It’s what I was trying to get away from.

    It’s all part of why I don’t think your ante wenger tirades should not be tolerated on a pro Wenger site.

    Again, is a communist mouthing off at a Tory rally freedom of speech or antagonistic trouble making?

    I think the later and I think that is the group into which you fall.

  • avatar John L

    the point about suarez is not that he isnt a good player but how he hasnt scored in the big games juxtaposed with the fact that our players like ozil, giroud and poldi get lambasted as ‘flat-track bullys’…..

  • avatar John L

    @ jambug,

    i dont always (or should i say ever) agree with rupert, but he isnt overly disrespectful and at least tries to argue his points in a thoughtful manner. you dont have to agree with him, but hes not coming on here and dropping c-bombs on players, manager or the club.

    also i go and read ‘le-grove’ every so often even though im the antithesis of how they see things. i also comment on le-grove despite knowing that im flogging a dead horse…

    dont start telling rupert to leave, that hes unwelcome, that we dont like him….because quite frankly mate, even if i agree with your views on the club and manager, you begin to look like the bigger dick.

  • avatar jambug

    John L

    Well at least you agree he’s a Dick, even if you think I’m a bigger one.

  • avatar John L

    @ Jambug,

    hahaha not at all just saying that your in danger of becoming the same evil your trying to get away from…..let them say what they will, theres plenty of people on here that shut them down with sound thinking and those funny little things called facts and statistics.

    in someways having the likes of rupert and sperez etc, make the forum more lively and are a wonderful illustration of what we are up against. while also giving us all an easy way of looking smart.

  • avatar bjtgooner

    The argument to retain someone on site because they make the forum more lively, or show what we are up against, or give us the chance of looking smart, would not logically be sufficient when balanced against the person concerned using the half truth or non truth to malign our manager, players or club.

  • avatar Jax

    I’ve just been accused of anti Wenger tirades. I’ve never “tiraded” against Arsene (I love him), the club or as far as I can remember any of the players or staff. I love this blog actually. It’s three time a day whereas some others can hardly manage once. I love the campaign against poor refereeing standards but don’t believe there’s a conspiracy which sometime colours my posts, but admire the research into this done by Tony & Walter. Don’t think much of the silly AAA thing and certainly don’t care for the “in crowd” (you all know who you are) who gang up on and try bullying and getting banning orders on posters they regularly disagree with and I’m sorry if I’ve upset anyone by piss taking, I do a lot of that.

  • avatar Gord

    With respect to putting up the blurb about Rodney Marsh (and no, I don’t think the leg breaker shoes will get more in the auction, but who knows, Stoke seems an unusual place), he showed that he is a gentleman. I will agree Suarez is a good player, he is not a good person. I don’t think Wenger knew what Bendtner would be doing off field before he was brought to Arsenal, but I can’t imagine his antics help is perceived value in the marketplace.

    Will Sanogo learn how to put the ball in the net, now that he has had a year uninjured? How will the academy strikers do in trying to fit in? Best of luck to all of them.

  • avatar jambug

    John L

    Fair point.

    I know I should ignore them, but like a fart in a spacesuit it’s not always easy, especially if it’s ‘eggy’, and I find Rupert particularly ‘eggy’.

  • avatar bjtgooner

    @Jax

    A better post. But look, you are in danger of contradicting yourself – you love the site, AW etc – yet you side with (one of) those who consistently use this site as a medium to try to tarnish our team and manager – why?

    Is it because you try to support someone you consider being attacked – and in doing so you are overlooking what that person states about those you claim to love. Have a good think – and I don’t mean that in any sarcastic or aggressive way.

  • avatar jambug

    @jax

    You’ve likened my name to a sanitary towel and called me a sad fuck, then profess your dislike of bullying.

    Bullying people, insulting people.

    Pot and kettle springs to mind.

  • avatar Jax

    I’m just a crazy mixed up guy I suppose (and contradictory). Must dash, got a match to watch.

  • avatar bob

    Quincy,
    Thanks for the argument, but, imo, they “prove” nothing.

    Podolski is known and has shown us (so far) to be far better playing off the CF/striker, and by no means a proven CF/striker for back-up, injury or complementary (two-striker) purposes. On a small sample at AFC, he decidedly hasn’t cut it at striker. There’s a reason AW chooses him as a winger. As for Theo, in a very small sample, he’s had as many stinkers as goals. There’s no track record there either – just your say-so and a magical wish that his skills would translate there. He has none to limited hold-up ability for the CF position either. And Bendtner has always been nice potential (on his day) with no consistency; and does he just-miss a lot (including sitters), even this year. Nick B. comparable to Ba (whom we’ve passed on a few times) or Torres? Laughable and tribalist. So, no, I don’t think Chelsea loses to us in this key Department.

    Fyi, just to clarify: As for AW (or the club) not spending, my actual position is not a generic slag off (as you categorize my admittedly incomplete argument); but that this lack of spending has been true at specific key junctures. (So, it’s not my generic position; and yes, to get it out of the way, I do take on our genuine need to pay off the Ems.) This said, take any of the last 3 January windows and AW (or the club) has spurned every one as a “distraction” – even while we were highly-(yes, highly) stretched out in (in each season) multi-cup competitions. The only buys were when we were absolutely forced to (yes, forced), by 3 successive seasons of injuries to a needed defender (ex: Santos, Vermaellen and Gibbs, hence, we brought in Monreal and Kallstrom, etc.). The injuries were “addressed” with the low-priced Gamble that all the injured would be back and that no overused others would fall to injury before they were back.) So that’s my view of where Injuries have struck us. It’s not Injuries per se, but the gamble that we’d be able to handle the tsunami of injuries (3 seasons in a row) without having to shore up with more quality than we had on hand.

    What I fear in your formulations, is that they will lull people into a false sense of security. There will be another round of injuries next season when (yes, when) we compete again on high at the business end; so that we’d best come prepared. Because not one team in the top seven will stand pat. None will say but for injuries we were as good as the winner, and do nothing. So, in the end, it would be nicer if we could go out agreeing that we should upgrade at positions that could be upgraded. And, imo, that means not relying on a returned from injury Theo (who won’t be ready at the start in any case) and a non-optimal Podo to be the back-ups to Giroud.

  • avatar jambug

    @Jax

    ‘Crazy mixed up guy’

    For Crazy read ‘stupid’

    For Mixed up read ‘hypocritical’

    For Guy read ‘Dumb Ape’

    ‘Stupid Hypocritical Dumb Ape’

    Yep, I think you just about nailed it there jax.

  • After 70 comments, the point of the article stating Suarez’s number against the other top 4 teams has gotten lost.

    We get constantly told that we’d be walking the league if we had only bought Suarez with greater emphasis on our games against the other top 4 teams. Now that we’ve found out that while he could score 4 against a hapless team at Anfield, he has failed after 6 attempts against the big boys to score even once, we are now being told that he played well in those games. Well, blimey, these are the same people who wouldn’t give Giroud his deserved credit despite being an all round great player for us. His goal tally has been used against him repeatedly but when our supposed saviour was proven to score less in those ULTRA important games, the talking point has changed.

    Only a blind man would put Giroud above Suarez as a striker but we can’t have it both ways. We can’t knock Giroud for not scoring in a set of games because he ‘sucks’ while absolving the ‘far superior’ Suarez for the same failure on the account of his greatness.

    It is also ironic that while Chelsea collected 16 points from a possible 18 from their 3 closest rivals, they could end the season 2 points behind 2 of them. REASON: Lack of CONSISTENCY, especially against the small and mid-table teams. Arsenal lost the league because of all the points dropped in the entire league fixtures. Many of them due to missing lots of players due to injury.

    We lost points to Aston Villa, Swansea and Everton at home and Stoke away. We lost 10 points in those games alone while we are likely to trail the league winners by only 7 points. Consistency wins the league, not just beating your rivals or else, Chelsea with their 9 points lead over the next team in the top4 mini league should be leading by at least 9 points now and would have won the league after match 35 which they lost incidentally in a manner that typifies their season.

    I am very pleased with our form against the lower teams this season and had we had better luck with injuries, we might have made up for those 7 points or more. Of course I hope we do much better against our rivals next season.

  • On those high score losses to Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea, it is interesting to see Bayern Munich go down 3-0 in 33 minutes at the Allianz Arena. It’s kinda like one of our games against the “fantastic 3″ except we weren’t playing at home. Barcelona suffered a similar fate against (funny enough) Bayern Munich last season at the same stage.

    Point of this comment? None really other than sometimes shit happens in football as in life generally and when you are going to get pummelled, you are going to get pummelled and it is not always because you are shite.

  • avatar Quincy

    Ok bob, let’s put it more simply. Would you rather have Giroud and his back up, including midfielders that cover as strikers, or Ba, Eto’o or Torres. I don’t many neutrals would choose the latter. Torres? Really? REALLY? Technically, yes, he is a footballer, but in practice, no, he isn’t. If you think Torres is better than any of our strikers, then I’m afraid I can’t argue with you any further. And your point about the small sample for Podolski and Walcott applies equally to Ba at Chelsea.

    And your argument basically does boil down to not spending, doesn’t it, or do you simply mean not spending in January? If so, then presumably you mean loans. If transfers in January are so easy, why didn’t Chelsea get a striker this January, seeing as Mourinho complains about it so often?

    You also contradict yourself by naming players Wenger has bought in January to cover our injuries. Your argument makes no sense whatsoever. You say Wenger doesn’t buy in Jan to cover for injuries, then you accuse him of buying in Jan only once injuries “force” him to.

    You also acknowledge the stadium debt, then slag off Wenger for buying cheaply. Please don’t contradict yourself so ludicrously.

    “Not one team in the top seven will stand still” blah blah blah blah. Wenger bought Ozil. OZIL. The best number 10 in the world. We actually have a bit of money to spend now, and Wenger has “splashed the cash”, so why don’t you just wait to see what actually happens this summer.

  • avatar jambug

    Bootoomee

    4-0 As you say. Sometimes shit happens !

  • avatar Mandy Dodd

    If Suarez played for us, he would have received red cards galore, and none of the penalties he has manufactured this season

  • avatar bjtgooner

    Mandy, I fully agree with that comment. Further, he would have been ridiculed in the media at every opportunity.

    This season his diving antics have been largely ignored by the media, but if he had been playing for us he would have been the target for Ozil type defamation – and then some.

  • avatar AL

    There’s a common denominator in high score losses when big teams meet; one team will doing all the attacking while the other sits back and tries to catch the other on the break. This has been the case in the barca-bayern, Arsenal-liverpool,Arsenal-Chelsea, etc., games. Because the other team concedes early and tries to level things, they leave themselves open to a counter attack. And in the end the scoreline doesn’t reflect the match. Chelsea won the CL playing this way. We saw it at the weekend again when Liverpool lost to Chelsea despite having 73% possession. We suffered a similar fate in about 4 matches this season. Madrid had about 30% possession at home to Bayern last week but still won one nil. I’m positive today the story was the same (didn’t watch) if not worse yet Madrid managed to score 4. I won’t be surprised if two teams that played negatively (Madrid and Chelsea) will be in the final(won’t watch unless if I totally have nothing to do if that happens).

    Teams are now setting up to play this way; leave the attacking side lots of space and hit them on a quick break. It’s almost anti football, yet it’s producing results for teams playing this way. I hate to win that way though, and I just don’t know if anything can be done about this as I feel it’s starting to send a message to all teams to play negatively, as negativity is getting rewarded. When a side like Madrid starts parking the bus then there’s no hope. Sad for football purists.

  • avatar Tom

    Quincy
    Take a deep breath and come down man :)
    You are telling Bob he doesn’t make sense and then you ask him to choose between the three Chelsea strikers and our striking force plus half of our the midfielders? How does that make any sense?

    If it’s just a choice between Chelsea strikers ;Torres, Eto’o and Ba against Arsenal strikers; Giroud, Sanogo , Bendtner and money (transfer fees and wages) is not an issue, then of course I’d take Chelsea strikers.

    The only reason Torres has been such a major disappointment at Chelsea is because of all the managerial musical chairs . You put him under Wenger’s wings and he would flourish again like he did at Liverpool.

    Wenger is the best in the business in getting the most out of his players.
    You put Giroud on Chelsea and his confidence would get shot to pieces in less than a month

  • avatar Mandy Dodd

    He may have even been accused of “stealing a living” BJT

  • avatar menace

    On hindsight if we had played some of our younger players to add pace to our team when our quality midfield were crock, we might have retained some of the points lost. It’s easy to say I know but we lacked pace up front and didn’t have that turn of speed that Ozil & Ramsey add to the team. There again some teams use pain killing injections to ensure some level of quality is retained when several players get injured. Thank God our boss does not do that and treats our players with affection and respect.

    Looking forward to Chelsea tomorrow. Madrid were magnificent and Robben had no chance to dive.

  • avatar Tom

    Al
    It’s called playing to your strengths .
    If Chelsea advance to the CL final , do you think Real Madrid will play them the same way they played against Bayern? Surely not.

    You are telling me that if Arsenal won the premier league , playing most important games in the same vein they played Tottenham when they got the 1:0 win at the Lane but sprinkled some fantastic performances like against Norwich at home in between , you wouldn’t be happy?

  • avatar bob

    Apologies to all, as this is addressed to Quincy, so move along. I’d rather discuss this with him as a sidebar, or in a bar.
    [Quincy,
    (First off, you’ve got the tone of a nasty zit. Squeeze it already and take a breath.)
    In your zest to say “gotcha!” on the still touchy spending front, you make not-spending a sacrament, and conduct your defense of the realm as if that were a cornerstone to your faith. It’s really hard to analyze/debate with a tribalist.

    No, it’s not the non-spending per se (despite your zeal to catch me in the act) that had bugs me. I’ve been trying (poorly perhaps) to talk to you about these two things:
    (1) January windows: We did not buy to shore up the defense with quality for those who were already out; and, alas, they became long-term injured. The mantra at each window, in the face of multiple cup competitions, was that they would be back “soon”. But they were not. And they were not replaced; and, in fact, no purchases were going to be made in January – only waiting until these injured were coming back, god knows when, and plugging the holes by overusing who was available. (Meanwhile, we’d fall from several competitions in succession.) This said, the January purchases that were made (that I referred to in the previous round) were done when ANOTHER set of late injuries(immediately before the windows opened — ex: to Santos and Gibbs, for two –) did force AW to purchase (namely, Monreal and Kallstrom) to put out the undeniable fire. That’s two different circumstances: one proactive insurance; the other reactive desperation. (I can see that I didn’t make that clear enough, but that’s what I’m saying.) The hope was that the wounded would be back in a few days, but the reality was that it stretched for months.

    It’s to caution against that unpredictability and frequency of longish term injury that has prompted me to ring the bell of quality ensurance. Oh, and yes, I’m waiting until the summer. Of course. But we wanted a debate, and so here it is, with apologies to other readers.

    I’ve not advocated replacing your man Giroud; but find (as do many) that we still need a high quality striker (not flexible winger) to complement him. We’ve fortunately dodged a bullet injury-wise on Giroud; though at the cost of his game having degrading from overuse (as AW half-admitted) and inadequate service. (Btw, Chelsea’s crud haven’t exactly hurt them too badly, given Mo’s double-deckerism.

    I think it comes down to I reject your wave of interchangeable parts approach as not an answer (but a cover-up) for our abiding one-dimensional insufficiency at CF. Your bet is Poldo and Theo can just slot in, no problem; mine is that they are not quality-enough in that role, especially against top defenses. For me, let our wingers do their very capable quality damage from the wings; and let’s spend on a second quality striker to complement your man Giroud. (Oh, and no more going public, as this January, with telling AW not buy an additional striker. AW then said he was considering a complement, not replacement.) ]

  • avatar menace

    There are tactics and there are systems. Arsenal play systems rather than using tactics. For example a tactic is to dive, or feign injury, park a bus, time waste, mark a player, serial foul an individual etc.. Arsenal have removed the dives and don’t feign injury and work on ball retention. Arsenal play ‘passing systems’ in each situation. These unfortunately can be captured and worked on to negate them. Several teams know what to expect and intercept passes easily causing us unnecessary pressure. Variation of systems create chances and chances can be converted into goals. Passing the ball into the net is the ultimate in our passing systems.

    Our defensive issues against pace is that we don’t block the runners. Teams get away with blocking goalkeepers and some have learned the art of blocking the runners. We seem to work on blocking the pass rather than the forward momentum of the recipient.

    The issues we have are that very few Arsenal players shoot from distance with intelligent technique. Henry, Wright, Bergkamp all had shooting technique. They were able to score from any distance in the final third as well as create chances for others.

    The likes of Suarez, Ramsey, Walcott have all the necessary skills to fit into Arsenals systems with the technique to shoot from distance. Ramsey has the additional benefit of stamina to attack/defend box to box.

    Gnabry is a very special shooter as he has power. His technique is good and he will improve in his team work within the passing systems.

    Giroud is a brilliant holding forward and clinical finisher close to goal. He lacks turning technique and incentive to shoot from distance. He also has poor short distance acceleration.

  • avatar bob

    “If it’s just a choice between Chelsea strikers ;Torres, Eto’o and Ba against Arsenal strikers; Giroud, Sanogo , Bendtner and money (transfer fees and wages) is not an issue, then of course I’d take Chelsea strikers.”
    Quincy,
    With respect to our debate, Tom has better formulated my position on that aspect of it. Again, apologies for my unclarity, but this (Tom’s above) is what I mean/meant in the CF department.

  • avatar Tom

    Rupert
    I’m sorry I misspelled your name.
    My apologies .

  • avatar Quincy

    Bob, your replies are becoming more and more haughty and convoluted. Just because you accuse me of having the “tone of a nasty zit”, doesn’t make you the calm, reasonable person in the argument. Besides the fact that a zit can’t have a tone, I think you’ll find I never resorted to personal insults. You’ve also done a very good job of doing what you accuse me of doing, deliberately misunderstanding my argument, and being to eager to classify me into your convenient little box.

    We have got to the point where all we can say is “let’s agree to disagree”, ok?

    And Tom, the point really is simple. If we are talking about strikers, then we have to include those midfielders who have actually been used as strikers. It’s not that difficult to understand, really.

  • avatar AL

    Tom
    If Madrid parking the bus over two legs is called playing to your then Lord help us. If it was Stoke I would understand, but not them,they should easily be the most offensive team. We’re are taking football back to the dark ages; I certainly wouldn’t be happy to pay and go watch a billion pound team park the bus.

  • avatar AL

    Madrid parking the bus over two legs is called playing to your strength then Lord help us.

  • avatar AL

    Madrid’s combined possession over both legs (28% and 31% respectively) isn’t even enough to match Bayern’s in one leg, seriously…

  • avatar Jax

    Al
    I’ve not seen much of Madrid this season (no Sky anymore), but from reports and the little I have actually seen, they look in great shape and last nights result was a masterclass in counter attacking football. 0-4 at the ground of one of the best teams in Europe is a fantastic result. Should be a great final, just hope it’s not against Chelsea though ‘coz that would be a bus parking extravagance .

  • avatar Florian

    If Chelsea make it to the final, expect the combined possession to be somewhere around 60%. Should be funny, but it’s not.

  • avatar AL

    Jax
    I wouldn’t use masterclass to describe what they did, more smash and grab. I mean they had 28% on their own turf, what is that? If it was us we would be slaughtered! Even when we played arguably the best side ever under Guardiola we were not that awful. I agree about the final boring; one of the most boring finals ever was Bayern – Chelsea. Obviously no fault on Bayern’s part.

  • I won’t get into the analysis of yesterday’s game. I prefer to keep it simple :-)

    Real Madrid got 2 early goals from set pieces, very similar to us at Anfield – in fact also both from a single defender that is not known for scoring goals. Eerily similar isn’t it? They did not get those goals because of their great “counter attacking” football. Let’s not obfuscate that bit, please.

    Quite often in football, when 2 teams of similar pedigree face each other, the one that gets 2 quick goals often get more as the trailing team desperately tries to equalise out of pride. When a team concedes 2 quick goals against a bigger team, they just reinforce their defence and try to limit the damage. Actually, scoring 2 quick goals against a lowly team might result in another not being scored till probably late in the game when the players might have become tired from all the defending.

    The reason why we conceded so many goals against the top 3 teams is the same reason why Bayern Munich conceded 4 against Real Madrid: Desperation to save face and restore PRIDE! It is the same reason why Liverpool conceded the 2nd goal last Sunday.

    I am not one to blame Real Madrid or Chelsea and Mourhino for their style of football. It is not my preference as a fan but in the end I am not their fan and how they play is up to them. Where I have issue is with the myopic praises that they get for doing what even much smaller teams pull off from time to time. How Mourhino, who lost to a bottom of the league Sunderland at home became a ‘tactical genius’ by beating Liverpool away is beyond my comprehension. Shouldn’t we be hailing Gus Poyet as an even greater genius in tactics?

    Football is a crazy game and sometimes shit happens but what seems to be constant is the cliche spouting and fish-like short memory of the pundits and many of the fans.

  • avatar Oliver

    Bad results against the top teams cumulatively have played a big part in our unfortunate demise. Turn a one or two of the draws in to wins and the losses in to draws and we would still be in the mix.

  • avatar Jax

    Al
    yeah, I guess two goals from set pieces isn’t exactly counter attacking, but still think it was great result against a top team and am dreading a Chelsea win tonight. I used to always support British teams in Europe, but have to make an exception this time.

  • Oliver,

    In the end and after all those losses, we are only 2 points behind Man City and 1 behind Liverpool in the top 4 mini league while Chelsea with a clear 9 point lead are 2 points behind both City and Liverpool in the league proper. Why?

    The fixation with results against the top 3 is media driven and is being propagated by fans whose feelings were hurt by the nature of the losses. My feelings were hurt too but I will not blame our demise on those results. For fuck sake, why aren’t Chelsea crowned champions already? They beat every one of their rivals you know.

    We lost the league because of the points we dropped at Stoke, our home draws to Swansea and Everton and the loss to Aston Villa on the opening day.

    Here is a question for you: which is easier to get, the points against these smaller teams or beating our rivals? No need to answer, just look at Man City and Liverpool’s positions and that of Chelsea that beat them both home and away.

  • avatar AL

    You’re right Bootoomee that how they play is up to them and whether it pleases their fans or not isn’t our problem. As you point out, it’s when the dimwits in the media hail them for basically turning into a Stoke/WHam side that is just ridiculous.

    Praying for an Atletico win tonight, or it’ll be another borefest of a final.

  • avatar andy bishop

    @oliver..even Per Mertesacker agrees with you

    “We couldn’t afford those away [defeats] against big teams so we didn’t deserve to be in the top three. That is something for next year that we have to manage better. I think the early away games killed us. Hopefully we can learn from that.”

  • avatar Rupert Cook

    @Jambug, Jax and I have known each other for 20 years. He’s a good guy and he happens to support Wenger. We often used to meet with friends down the pub only he’s moved away from London now.

    He knows I think Wenger’s had his day but we don’t come to blows about it. We happen to be civil over our differences and I have no issue with his support of Wenger. That’s what he believes and that’s fine with me. It would be quite refreshing if some of you took the same attitude. But I guess your limited imaginations find that hard to process.

    If I sat down in a pub with any of you I wouldn’t start calling you morons or shouting abuse at you which is what I often get on here. Some people think they gain intellectual superiority by calling people names. If they think it gives weight to their arguments I think they’re deluding themselves. Perhaps they should think about how Wenger would view their childish harangues, not with a friendly eye I imagine.

    I have no problem with any of you supporting Wenger. I’ve made myself clear about my issues with him and if I’m wrong fine, I’ll admit to it. I don’t call Wenger names like many do on other sites, many of which are not only rude about him but downright distasteful. Firstly I support Arsenal, whatever manager we have makes no odds to me as long as he brings success to the club.

  • andy bishop,

    Mertesacker threw you guys a bone. Kind of like Arsene Wenger telling the press that he would “investigate” the cause(s) of our injuries. Yeah right, Wenger wouldn’t know the cause(s) of the injury crises that his teams have faced for years now. He needs the media to prod him into finding out why.

    When Mertesacker was asked about the losses, how do you think it would be reported if he says that MATHEMATICALLY, they are not the reason why we are out of running for the league? Just like Arsene Wenger before him, he told the media exactly what they want to hear and fans like you have been parrotting it ever since.

    So the question again: How come Chelsea aren’t already (or in prime position to be) champions after collecting 9 more points than their nearest rival in the ULTRA important games against the other top 4 teams? Could it be because Man City and Liverpool got 11 and 12 more points respectively than Chelsea in the remaining games of the campaign?

    Maths and facts are very stubborn.

  • avatar Pete

    Bootoomee – don’t usually disagree with you…

    You correctly identify dropped points against weaker teams (also draw at WBA). But we beat ALL the rest of them home and away (and Stoke, Swansea and Villa in the returns), with WBA and Norwich to come. I think that is quite an outstanding return in the PL – and almost certainly better than we have ever managed before, with the possible exception of the Invincibles.

    For once, I think we can blame our failure to sustain our challenge on bad (away only) results against the other leading teams. In hindsight, we should have been more cautious at Man C, Chelsea and Liverpool – but then we were cautious at MU and still lost that. Everton was just poor.

    Ironically, I do think we went for it in those games precisely because we ARE better than we used to be – but lacked key players – which was a bad oversight, but so it goes. Against Man City we had just returned from a very tough game at Dortmund.

  • BTW and as I have mentioned above, those losses were embarrassing and painful and I hope we avoid such next season. As a mathematician, however, I just find comments blaming them for us not winning the league ridiculous. They contributed but no more than any other point that we lost to any other team, big, mid-table or small.

  • avatar Pete

    I see Surfer X was mentioned as a possible barred commenter. S/He recently wrote quite a thought provoking article on Le Grove – although I disagreed with a lot of it, it was worth reading.

  • avatar Jax

    20 years of Rupert & still sane. How did I manage that?

  • Pete,

    So AGAIN, how come Chelsea aren’t champions already? All points lost add up in the end but I think losses to Aston Villa (home) and Stoke (away) as well as home draws against Everton and Swansea are the biggest reasons why we lost the league because those points are easier to get for us and based on our form this season, they are the ones we shouldn’t have dropped.

    I agree with you that we have a fantastic run against the lower teams this season and long I hope that continues. I also hope that we do better against our rivals next season.

    Where I continue to differ is the fixation, despite evidence to the contrary, on the fact that the we lost the league due to our heavy defeats to the top 3. I would firmly agree if we were losing the league on goals difference. Or the best team in the top 4 mini league is going to be the winner.

  • avatar Rupert Cook

    @Pete, yes I read Surfer X’s post too and it was interesting. Of course a lot of it was supposition but then aren’t most articles and posts on here? Not being privy to the every intricate workings of our club one has to resort to reasonable conclusions rather than hard facts.

    @Jax, you’re sane! You support Wenger, how can you be? :)

  • avatar Pete

    Bootoomee,

    Chelsea aren’t champions because they did much worse than us against the minnows – as you note.

    We have had 7 draws and 7 defeats. Obviously all those hurt us equally – but the Man C/Liv/Chelsea games had a worse impact because the defeats helped them! If we had won all three of those away games we would have 9 points more and they would all have 3 points less – so we would be almost there now!

    I haven’t got time to check it out, but it would be interesting to compare where and how many points we dropped during our championship seasons.

    Also, over time, the trend in winning points totals is edging upwards. We have 73 points now – and could get to 79. In 1989 we won with 76… This is probably due to the greater income inequality, which is primarily because of the financially doped clubs.

  • avatar Rupert Cook

    The three games we royally messed up were all at home, Swansea, Everton and Manu. All drawn games that were winnable, especially Manu but we looked terrified of losing. No excuse as they were getting beaten left right and centre. We’d have an extra 6 points and be in the mix.

  • avatar Pete

    Rupert – Well, yes, but statistically it is almost impossible to win all our home games. A season long home record of W12, D5, L1 (with one to play) is exceptionally good and one that I would have immediately taken if offered at the start of the season.

  • avatar Rupert Cook

    @Bootoome , the manner of those heavy defeats may well have affected our subsequent performances, who knows. But I find it strange that you think losing to the top three hasn’t made any impact, if we’d won some of those games we’d be near the top, if not top.

  • avatar Rupert Cook

    @Pete, too true and it’s good a record. Shame we just couldn’t win one of those games then we’d still be still be in there, just!

  • Pete,

    “Obviously all those hurt us equally – but the Man C/Liv/Chelsea games had a worse impact because the defeats helped them!”

    No doubt but by how much and by how much are they leading us in the entire league table?

    Man City gained 3 net points from us but they lead us by 7 (I always give them 3 points for their game in hand).

    Liverpool gained 0 net point from us but they lead us by 7.

    Chelsea gained 3 net points from us but they lead us by 5.

    Considering that Man City and Liverpool that are likely to win the league didn’t do so well in the top 4 mini league (leading us by 2 and 1 point respectively) how can we continue to blame our losses to them as the MAIN reason why we lost the league?

    The fact is that great as were against the rest of the 16 teams in the league, Man City and Liverpool were even better. Liverpool gained 7 more points than us from the bottom 16 while Man City gained 4 more. Even Chelsea gained 2 more points than us.

    The key to winning the league is beating the small teams with unrepentant ruthlessness. That is precisely what Liverpool (and incidentally Suarez with all of his goals) have done this season. Had Liverpool not fallen for this “beat you rivals” logic and Rodgers had played for a draw which was all they needed against Chelsea at Anfield, they would be preparing to lift their first ever PL title now.

    While I have no doubt that beating your rivals help, Manchester United have shown us for years that CONSISTENCY (particularly against the smaller teams) is the key to winning the league.

  • avatar menace

    Dropped points and losses to top teams are not the crux of our position. The crux of our position is the ‘level playing field’ that is sloped. If we had honest balanced officiating, our injuries would be less and our points tally would be higher.

    Our first game against Villa was robbery and no matter what opinion others have, mine is that we were robbed by biased (cheating) officials. Several decisions along the way, even in games that we won, were blatant cheating. The cup final is not a given considering we have to play ‘son of Fergie’ and PGMOL. We have to be better in spite of the handicap.

    Look back at the invincibles and see how bad the bias was. Only then can you realise how great that team was to achieve what it did. Remember the media bias as well. They were all laughing at Wenger when he said his team could go through a season undefeated a few months before. I cannot remember any of them saying ‘SORRY Mr Wenger we were idiots doubting you’.

  • avatar Jax

    Is it just me, or is anyone else having problems with someone pimping their web site? Hope there’s no cookies installed or at the very worst viruses.

  • Rupert Cook,

    How can you follow:

    “The three games we royally messed up were all at home, Swansea, Everton and Manu. All drawn games that were winnable, especially Manu but we looked terrified of losing. No excuse as they were getting beaten left right and centre. We’d have an extra 6 points and be in the mix.”

    Which I agree with, with:

    “the manner of those heavy defeats may well have affected our subsequent performances, who knows. But I find it strange that you think losing to the top three hasn’t made any impact”

    First, you lie when you write: “you think losing to the top three hasn’t made any impact”. I never said that. I said the impact is being EXAGGERATED. Not the same thing, not even close to being the same thing. Please quote people properly. It is unbecoming of you.

    I would agree with you that “the manner of those heavy defeats may well have affected our subsequent performances” except we came back from 2 of those defeats with back to back wins in subsequent games. We even beat Liverpool 2-1 about 10 days after the 5-1 loss at Anfield. The only defeat that we didn’t bounce back too well from was Chelsea’s and that was because the team was terribly depleted with injuries at the time.

  • avatar menace

    The league is won and those in the top 6 are not losers. They are successful at different levels. We haven’t lost by not winning but are just less successful. Losers are those teams that sadly get relegated.

    Penalties are also reported wrongly. If the penalty is scored or saved, it is not missed. It is only missed if the shot does not hit the target.

  • Jax,

    Who is pimping their website? You do know that you have the right to NOT click on such ‘pimped’ websites right?

    Your inability to speak your mind without pussy-footing is pathetic. Pussy!

  • avatar Rupert Cook

    @Bootoome, Ok, my mistake. I phrased that badly.

  • avatar Jax

    Bootoomee
    I didn’t want to name anyone incase I was making a mistake. I might have been the only one who was clicking on your name in the “recent comments’ list and being redirected to your web site. In my book that’s pimping. For all I know I still might be the only one and now that I know I’ll avoid it.

  • avatar Jax

    Bootoomee
    As for having the right NOT to click on….of course I do, but without knowing that I’m going to be redirected how would I know? It might be an anomaly, in which case it needs sorting out.

  • Jax,

    I applaud you for finally manning up and addressing the person that you have issue with. Kudos.

    On ‘pimping’ my website: sorry dude but you are pretty ignorant about how the Internet works. There are 3 login entry tabs for Untold Arsenal comments section. The third one says: “Website”. You can type in your personal website address there if you have one. Mine is http://www.bootoomee.com and I have permanently entered. You can even type in your Twitter homepage address and it will take anyone who clicks on them to your website or your twitter page.

    That is what you have just experienced but rather than ask politely for enlightenment, you chose to be snide and rude.

    Now this is an example of a website being pimped on a comment section:

    “Jonz23: My uncle just bought a Ferrari from doing ……… I make $50,000 per month from doing ………. Click on http://www.click-if-you-are-a-moron.com to find out more.”

    And that,my friend, is how websites are pimped.

  • Jax,

    (Reposted to beat moderation due to 2 web addresses)

    I applaud you for finally manning up and addressing the person that you have issue with. Kudos.

    On ‘pimping’ my website: sorry dude but you are pretty ignorant about how the Internet works. There are 3 login entry tabs for Untold Arsenal comments section. The third one says: “Website”. You can type in your personal website address there if you have one. You can even type in your Twitter homepage address and it will take anyone who clicks on them to your website or your twitter page.

    That is what you have just experienced but rather than ask politely for enlightenment, you chose to be snide and rude.

    Now this is an example of a website being pimped on a comment section:

    “Jonz23: My uncle just bought a Ferrari from doing ……… I make $50,000 per month from doing ………. Click on http://www.click-if-you-are-a-moron.com to find out more.”

    And that,my friend, is how websites are pimped.

  • avatar Jax

    Bootoomee
    I understand the login process and the option to enter web site details. That’s not my issue. What I don’t understand is how I (or anyone else for that matter) is automatically redirected from the comments list to your web site with no forewarning. I mean, we always know when we’re going to a web site don’t we. I always know when I’m being linked which gives me options to visit or refuse. On your name in the comments list there’s no forewarnings (I don’t know the technical term for it. Is it URL or Hyperlink?) so how would I know?

  • avatar Tom

    Al
    “If Madrid parking the bus is playing to your strengths then god help us. They should be easily the most offensive team…………”

    First of all , Madrid played against Bayern who are the CL holders and who have run away with Bundesliga title this year in a record setting fashion .

    Secondly, Bayern under Guardiola have become masters of posession football just as Barca did under him.
    You simply don’t realize what amount of work it takes on the football pitch and in the video room to be able to play that system. There was a clip making rounds of Pep instructing and yelling at his Bayern players while explaining the movement he wanted from them . Even players like Philip Lahm were wide-eyed and bewildered .
    Expecting Real to be able to beat Bayern at their game ( possession) just because they are the most expansive team in the world is naive.

    Carlo Ancelotti is not naive and neither is Moirinho and they care about winning and not pleasing the fans of other teams. I can guarantee you that no Real Madrid or Chelsea fan had a problem with the way they beat Bayern and Liverpool respectively.
    And neither would you if it was Arsenal doing the winning.

    Just think about it like this. You are Ancelotti and you ask yourself what is the one thing Real Madrid do better than Bayern or any other club in the world . The answer is transition and counterattacking football of course .

    That’s playing to your strengths . And I hate to point out the obvious but Real were the most offensive team last night . They scored four goals didn’t they :)

  • avatar jambug

    Arsenal parked the bus against Manchester united in the FA Cup final and we eventually triumphed on penalties.

    And yes we loved it.

    But I don’t recall anyone hailing it as a Wenger master Class.

    If I remember rightly it was quite the opposite. We was ridiculed for it at the time, and have been ever since.

    Still I suppose it’s so much more impressive when you’ve spent a Billion quid to do it.

  • avatar Tom

    Bootoomee

    Why is it that every time Wenger or an Arsenal player makes a statement that contradicts your believes , you always say they “threw us a bone and we ran with it” but when those statements align with your believes you treat them as gospel?

    And also , unless I misread your post, you seem to claim ( to support your believes , again) that Arsenal came back from “two of those heavy defeats with back to back wins in subsequent games”

    We lost to City 6:3 and got a draw in the next game with Chelsea .
    Lost to Liverpool 5:1 and got a draw against United in the next game.
    Lost to Chelsea 6:0 and got a draw against Swansea.
    Lost to Everton 3:0 and got a draw against Wigan and beat them on penalties.

    You also said that one of the games Arsenal should’ve won was away to Stoke because as you put it “those are easier points for us to get”

    This is Arsenal record away to Stoke in the last seasons:
    2014 Stoke 1:0 Ars
    2013 Stoke 0:0 Ars
    2011 Stoke 1:1 Ars
    2010 Stoke 3:1 Ars

    Maths and facts are very stubborn indeed .

  • avatar AL

    Tom
    “You simply don’t realize what amount of work it takes on the football pitch and in the video…” :)
    And your point being? Ok, I may be naive but is it only Guardiola licensed to do that with his teams, why don’t others try the same? And I wasn’t aware that only the team that scores more were the more offensive on the day. Besides, you offer reasons why Madrid played the way they played, but you don’t deny that’s called parking the bus. When west ham do it they parked the bus, when it’s Madrid or Chelsea it’s a tactical masterclass. Really?

    Jambug,
    That’s exactly what was on my mind while reading Tom’s response. Only in the last week or so someone on sky said our last trophy was an ugly smash and grab against united. Up to this very day they all still remember how badly we played on that day. Yet they’ve forgotten how Madrid parked the bus only less than 24 hrs ago.

  • avatar Tom

    Jambug

    I’m assuming your last post was to me so I’m replying.

    I never said I was impressed with Real or Chelsea for that matter but just that there are more than one way to win your objectives.

    If there’s something that your opponents do exceptionally well , why not try to take that away from them.

    If I was Brandan Rogers I would’ve sat deep in my half and passed the ball around and make Ba run around for 10 or 15 minutes in circles and make Mourinho look stupid in the process. He would’ve realized he needed to come out or risk the league’s wrath for gifting his former apprentice the league title . I’m sure Liverpool fans would’ve shouted O-le with every back pass once they realized what was going on.

  • avatar Tom

    Al
    My point being is that you don’t just practice possession football or high press football because you looked up you up coming matches and you think it might be a good idea to implement it against one side or two. Sure some teams do it like that but never to the extent of Bayern or Barca .

    With Guardiola’s clubs it’s a philosophy and you learn to play it from the preseason on. You can’t develop it in two weeks time no matter how fast or talented your players are.

    I suggest you re watch the Man City / Southampton game if you have some time , not the highlights but the game in its entirety and you will see what I’m talking about. Southampton made City players look helpless at times with their passing and movement and pressing . City did come out on top in the end because of their clinical finishing but my point still stands.

  • avatar Tom

    Al
    When West Ham did it to Chelsea I was laughing my ass off, are you kidding me?
    Nothing gives me more pleasure than to see the special one out specialled

  • avatar jambug

    @Tom

    No it wasn’t aimed at you, it was aimed at ANYONE who selectively calls parking the bus a ‘Master class’ when it suits and ‘boring shite’ when it doesn’t.

    I suppose if you’re one of those then it was, if you are not, then it wasn’t.

    And for the record, I do have a grudging admiration for it when it works, but I don’t have to like it.

    It’s similar to ‘rope a dope’ in boxing. Just stand there and tire the guy out, then throw the KO punch. Great. Even the legendary Ali did it.

    But however much you admire it. However much you think it was a means to justify the end, it makes for crap entertainment and if every one did it boxing would die on its feet.

    Same with football.

    People can try to justify it as much as they want, but it wont change the fact it makes for crap entertainment, and funny enough I always thought we paid our entrance fee or SKY subscription to be entertained.

    Must just be me.

  • avatar Tom

    Jambug

    You say ‘parking the bus’ makes for crap entertainment and you have every right to feel that way and NO, I don’t call it a ‘Master class’ but I do find it entertaining at times and I have an appreciation for it because I know it’s not as simple as lining up two banks of fives .
    There’s a high element of skill involved in being able to defend like that .

    Also you mustn’t just look at the final score but rather wether that sort of tactic worked because you did well or maybe because you got a bit lucky.

    West Ham did it against Mourinho and it worked but Chelsea created a ton of chances they failed to convert into goals. Real kept Bayern at arm’s length and were in control of the game the whole time . Chelsea limited Liverpool to one or two goal mouth chances as well and everything else was just Liverpool shooting hopelessly from distance or lofting hopeful balls into area.
    That’s why pundits call it a Master class.

  • avatar bjtgooner

    When a major team plays “parking the bus” it seems to involve surprise and criticism much more than when a smaller team plays that way.

    We often see the minor EPL teams come to the Emirates, park the bus & hope to catch us on the break or by a set piece. Even the Manures have played like this at the Emirates & Chelski did the same thing this season – but by and large these are exceptions, we do not expect major teams to play that way.

    The surprise from last night was that Real Madrid used that tactic, but it worked well for them & they won easily. Bayern played into Real’s hands by leaving themselves very open to counter attacks, by having limited ideas going forward (despite many big name players) and by being disorganized and dysfunctional at the back. The defending of set pieces was very poor.

    The questions then become, should all teams play by the “park the bus” method, is it morally the way football should be played, and what are the best tactics to counter that style?

  • avatar Jax

    I have to confess that I called it a “masters class in counter attacking football” on here earlier today, before I’d remembered that 3 goals came from free kicks. Still, 0-4 is a great result. Just hope Chelsea don’t spoil a potentially great final by winning tonight.

  • avatar FunGunner

    That’s a reality check for those who are quick to criticise Giroud or Ozil for lack of away goals. Thanks, Walter. Even if Suarez contributed in ways other than scoring goals himself, it was not enough to make a significant difference.

    ***
    “We couldn’t afford those away [defeats] against big teams so we didn’t deserve to be in the top three. That is something for next year that we have to manage better.”

    Losing heavily at Liverpool, Chelsea, Everton and City hurt us because the losses drained our confidence and stopped our momentum. And they were six-pointers because they were our close rivals at the time. With regard to the losses at Everton and Liverpool and ManUre, the fact that we played poorly was very damaging. That’s the way in which it matters. But the fact is that the team that lifts the trophy is the team with most points. Coming top of the top four mini-league is neither necessary nor sufficient to win the title. It helps, but only if you also have a good record against the “lesser” teams.

    @ Jax
    “Just hope Chelsea don’t spoil a potentially great final by winning tonight.”
    Hear, hear!

  • avatar Tom

    FunGunner

    “Even if Suarez contributed in ways other than scoring goals himself it wasn’t enough to make a significant difference”

    Goals per game stats

    1.Suarez – 0.85
    2.Sturridge – 0.81
    3.Van Persie -0.68
    4.Aguero – 0.57
    5. Remy -0.48
    6.Lukaku – 0.48
    7.Benteke – 0.47
    8.Rooney – 0.44 at £ 300K per week. Shocking really.
    9.Adebayor -0.36
    10.Giroud – 0.36 Not good enough for a club with title ambitions.

    Goals and Assists per game

    1. Suarez – 1.09
    2.Sturridge – 1.03
    3. Van Persie – 0.87
    4. Rooney – 0.83
    5.Aguero – 0.72
    6.Lukaku – 0.64
    7.Benteke – 0.58
    8.Lambert – 0.55
    9.Remy – 0.54
    10.Giroud – 0.51

  • avatar jambug

    Tom

    I know setting up a defensive unit not to concede, and do it as well as Chelsea did at Liverpool, is not easy. But I would of been a lot more impressed if he could of used his expensively assemble squad to thrill us rather than bore us all to death. That’s what I pay my expensive Sky subscription for, and as I say, if everyone did it we’d be like Italy 10 years ago and we all know what happened there.

    It’s true some people do enjoy the finer arts of a defensive ‘Master class’ as the press seem so keen to call it, but on the whole people want to watch skilful, offensive football.

    All I know is when George Grahams Arsenal did it we where labelled ‘boring boring’ Arsenal.

    I don’t see why Chelsea doing it should be seen as any different.

    Nothing to do with the fact it’s the medias darling Jose I suppose?

  • avatar jambug

    And by the way Tom, Graham did it at least as well, Liverpool away to win the title is a fine example, and he didn’t spend a small Nations National budget to do it.

  • avatar Tom

    Jambug

    Hey man , I’m with on this . You really don’t have to try so hard to convert me. I’m already there :)

  • avatar Tom

    Meant to say ‘with you on this’

  • avatar jambug

    Tom

    Sorry to labour the point.

    As you’ve probably noticed, my philosophy is, why say in 10(Grammatically wrong, misspelt) words, what you can say in a hundred.

  • Tom,

    Here is an itemised response to your comment to me:

    “Why is it that every time Wenger or an Arsenal player makes a statement that contradicts your believes , you always say they “threw us a bone and we ran with it” but when those statements align with your believes you treat them as gospel?”

    Do you have any evidence of me taking the club’s statements as gospel or are you just making stuff up again? I am still waiting for your evidence of those Untold regulars that were always abusing Ozil. If you think that Wenger only decided to investigate our injury problems after being harrassed by the media, then you can’t be very smart. No wonder you went for the bone just like the moronic media. When did you last hear anyone ask about the causes of our injuries? That is what the bone is for. To shut the media up and it worked.

    On the “back to back” wins comments, you were just being nit-picky to sound smart. I was making a point. We drew Chelsea immediately after losing 3-6 to Man City (true) and then went on to win 7 matches in a row. I already stated that our bounce back from the Chelsea was not so great. My point which you’ve ignored is to counter Rupert that the losses cost us in our games.

    “You also said that one of the games Arsenal should’ve won was away to Stoke because as you put it “those are easier points for us to get”

    “This is Arsenal record away to Stoke in the last seasons:
    2014 Stoke 1:0 Ars
    2013 Stoke 0:0 Ars
    2011 Stoke 1:1 Ars
    2010 Stoke 3:1 Ars”

    Now, while I concede this point to you, isn’t it disingenuous of you and those whining about losses away to Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool. By your warped logic, it is silly to expect a win at Stoke but the team should be crucified for losing away to tougher opponents? Last 4 years notwithstanding, games like away to Stoke are those that I consider must win, not those away to Man City or Chelsea. Let’s agree to disagree on that one but don’t write like my expectation here is outrageous. I will be expecting Arsenal to claim the 3 point at Stoke again next season despite our result there in this campaign while I’ll happily take 1 point each at Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea.

    Your pettiness and tit-for-tat attitude often make you look small. If you disagree with a point that I am making, say so and let’s debate the issues. Don’t go like a rat nit-picking my comments for petty errors that don’t negate the points being made.

  • Tom,

    “10.Giroud – 0.36 Not good enough for a club with title ambitions.”

    In other word, we are not winning the league because of Giroud. I love the way your mind works.

    You do know that he played a lot of games which drove down his goals per game because of his importance to the team right? For a so called former footballer, your insight can be very very very poor. How many time have I heard people like you complain about how crap Ollie is and then follow up by a moan on how Arsenal will survive if he ever gets injured. Why would a striker that bad be missed?

  • That was a ‘masterclass’ in substitution by the ‘tactical genius’. His sub just won Atletico a penalty.

    Chelsea must now score 2 unreplied goals.

  • It’s now 3-1 to Atletico. Chelsea must now score 3. By the way, Atletico aren’t parking the bus.

  • avatar jambug

    Bootoomee.

    Still, never mind Jose, it’ll be the Summer soon and you can spend another £100 Million on a bigger bus.

  • avatar jambug

    These f*****g commentators.

    Neville: “I never like a Nil Nil away from home in the Champions League”

    Last week we was being told Chelseas performance was a Jose ‘Master Class’

    Hypocritical idiots.

  • avatar bjtgooner

    Nice win for Athletico, some great play; the bus was outmaneuvered, the genius driver and his divers and thugs in blue, having missed their stop looked a bit ordinary.

  • avatar jambug

    Jose on the penalty.

    “I did not zeee it”

    Seems Wenger’s not the only one with dodgy eyesight then.

    Still as long as we maintain the illusion Wenger’s the ONLY one that ever says it that’s all that matters.

  • jambug,

    Talk about the media and their cliches. Once they latch unto one, they never let go. All managers claim to not see calls against their teams, they only see the ones in their favour but with the “Wenger didn’t see it” cliche, you’d think he is the only who ever says it.

    Wankers, all of them.

  • avatar jambug

    Bootoomee.

    I know and you know it’s crap but it’s amazing how pervasive it is.

    I was chatting football at work with a Palace fan. I asked him why he didn’t like Wenger.

    He said. “He never stops moaning and never sees anything unless it suits him”

    And that’s how it is.

    It seems no matter that EVERY manager moans, many more than Wenger, or that every manager has selective eyesight, thanks to the media it’s Wenger who is portrayed as the biggest moaner and the most one eyed manager.

  • avatar AL

    Now that was a proper football match, well done Atletico. Isn’t it just nice when the team that’s doing things the right way comes out on top.

  • It’s great to finally get a break from the Jose worshipping. Thank goodness.

    No trophy after all the noise about his exalted return. I love it.

  • avatar WalterBroeckx

    Now the perfect ending to the season would be for me : Man City winning the league and Chelsea ending up with nothing. And then Arsenal getting 4th (or 3rd if Chelsea really would slip up completely) and win the FA cup. That would shut up Moaninho a bit I think

  • Walter,

    I emailed you some minutes ago. Have you seen it?

  • avatar Gord

    Personally, I would just as soon have Wenger says something other than he didn’t see it. Sure, we don’t know where his eyes were focused when the event happened, but a lot of the time the statement seems unlikely.

    I haven’t analysed it.

    Maybe that is better.

    Walter, I don’t think anything will shut him up. The squeaky heal gets the spoil, or something like that.

  • avatar WalterBroeckx

    Bootoomee,
    just found it. Thanks.

    Will be up tomorrow.

  • avatar Tom

    Bootoomee

    I wasn’t gonna respond to your post at length because that only leads to pointless back and forth , hence the smiley face but upon reflecting upon it, I decided that there are just too many inaccuracies in your post to let it slide ,so here it goes.

    I see you are still smarting about my Ozill remarks from some six months ago when I said what a phenomenal player he was and how he wasn’t getting enough credit for his talents due to lack of offensive outlets in our line up but instead SOME CRITICIZIM from some posters. Now ,according to you ,I said he was ‘always abused by UA regulars ‘which is foulse. At the rate you are going with this ‘Ozil thing’ , in another six months you are going to be asking me to give you evidence for my alleged claims of UA founders themselves calling Ozil a muslim terrorist.
    Just stop it! It’s getting embarrassing .

    As for the rest of your post which contains words like ; small , petty,warped,
    not very smart and disingenuous to describe me or my opinions , well, I just quoted your own words , in context and gave evidence for them to be not true and illogical. I don’t see how you can blame me for that.
    I suggest you reread your own comments again and then mine because I really don’t feel the need to cut and paste.

    Perhaps the reason you and I don’t see eye to eye is because what’s logical to you isn’t logical to me ,like your saying that you expect Arsenal to win at Stoke because “those are easier points to get” . These were your own words not mine. The overwhelming evidence shows that to be not true therefore to me that’s illogical.

    Now , I consider my involvement on this thread to be over .

  • avatar Gord

    It has come up before here at Untold, about the reasons for teams to loan out players.

    Is it UEFA or the FA which wants to remove restrictive clauses from loans?

    In any event, one of Mourinho’s complaints, is that the opposition goaltender was loaned to them by Chelsea.

    Have an limitless bank account? By ALL the goaltenders in the world, and loan them all out to other teams. Whenever you play “them”, they cannot use their goaltender, because the loan agreement disallows that. Hence, every game you play, has some other player at goaltender, and you probably win.

    It’s a strategy Mourinho. It isn’t a good one, but it is a strategy.

    I suppose there will be a zillion news outlets saying what a genius Mourinho was to try this tomorrow.

  • avatar Ray from Norfolk, Virginia

    Gord: poetic justice.
    Mourinho dumped out of the CL final because of the on-loan Courtois.
    Bootoomee: About points we were robbed of:
    -Two at WBA (Mulumbu penalty on Wilshere not given)
    -Two at Southampton (first goal was a clear foul by Fonte on Monreal)
    -?Two at home versus Swansea (own goal)
    -Two against Chelsea (penalty by Willian against Theo)
    -Two against Manure (penalty by Vidic against Giroud)
    -?One at least against Aston Villa at home
    -?One at least against Stoke City at the Brittania stadium
    The 8 points without the question marks would have us at 81 points, ahead of Liverpool; further, we could be vying for a maximum of 87 versus a maximum of 86 for Liverpool and Man City. CQFD. Ce Qu’il Fallait Demontrer. COYG. Aha and Amen.

  • avatar AL

    True, Ray. I don’t know why some want to sweep these things under the carpet when it’s really what should have been the case. If you add that the sides above us probably would be at least 4 points worse than where they’re (Liverpool 4 points 2 v united and 2 points v west ham they probably didn’t deserve), City (perhaps 4 points too – Liverpool & Arsenal games) and Chelsea (6 points – west brom and Arsenal games) the picture starts to look real bad. Meanwhile, I’m struggling to think of a match we got points we didn’t deserve and not finding any. But no, all this will conveniently be forgotten. And all we will be reminded is how shite Wenger is.

  • Ray from Norfolk, Virginia,

    Those points were made in my article that is now up.

  • avatar Rupert Cook

    @Ray, we were dreadful against Southampton and lucky to get a draw so how you can claim we would have beaten them is odd.

    And if the ref hadn’t blown up in the Swansea game just as they had a very good chance to score we might have no points from that game but let’s ignore that.

    We were also dreadful against Stoke.

    Oh well, everyone’s reality is different I guess.

  • avatar jambug

    @Gord: 10:52pm

    But the point is he hardly ever says it. No more than anybody else anyway.

    But it’s only Wenger that gets Stigmatised with it.

    Same with moaning. In my opinion Wenger is quite the opposite. He often has genuine reasons to have a moan but doesn’t.

    Even so, my colleague has this disproportion view of Wenger as the BIGGEST myopic moaner.

    And way is that do you think?

    It’s solely down to the disproportionate way things are reported.

    The media.