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October 2016
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Farewell top level FFP; Football League it is up to you

By Tony Attwood

As has been apparent for some time Uefa are now certain to change the FFP rules in the favour of Manchester City, PSG, Monaco, Chelsea and a range of Russian clubs.  The official view is that Uefa never wanted to stop what they call “owner investment” (what we call “pumping so much oil money into a club that it becomes beyond the bounds of possibility not to win the league”), so they need to modify the rules.

The unofficial reason for this is that Uefa doesn’t have a big enough legal team to fight the ten legal challenges to their warnings for next season.  The unofficial unofficial reason is that Chelsea and Man C’s executives have had better imaginations than Uefa and have been introducing franchising and wholesale loaning, to by-pass FFP.

There is just a chance however that Fifa will step in to nullify Chelsea’s player loan scheme in which the number of players that it has on loan is growing exponentially, and at the current rate of growth will be bigger than the rest of the Premier League put together in three years time.

In one year’s time, the summer of 2016, emergency loans will come to an end.  Emergency loans happen outside the transfer windows, and seem to have grown up primarily in England.  They are in fact a flagrant breach of the transfer window rules, but Fifa has taken its time shutting them down.

They should have stopped three years ago but the Football League argued that they needed them to stay in business.  Fifa gave three years extra grace and told the FL to sort out its business so it didn’t need emergency loans.  The FL, which claims it is a different type of league from other leagues in Europe, have pleaded a special case but to no effect.

But the FL lost and emergency loans stop next year, so any league club that runs out of players, runs out of players until the next transfer window.  However there are also rumours circulating that Fifa wants to amend the whole loan market, in order to counteract the Chelsea approach, which other clubs are now looking to follow.

But if as now seems likely FFP withers on the vine Chelsea will have no need of its “if it moves, get it on loan” policy which has led them to have around 30 players out on loan this season.

As for Man City, Uefa is saying that stopping them opening a franchised team in every continent, and then every country is Fifa’s job.  The family dictatorship that owns Man C have identically branded teams in Australia, the USA and England, with talk of clubs in South Africa and Brazil coming on stream.  Fifa quite like this because it uses up at least one of the stadia in each country left empty after the world cup – and empty stadia in flailing economies never make good news stories.

Platini’s interview on Radio Luxembourg (well RTL as I should call it, but I still like the name us oldies used to know it as) said “The world is two-faced but we will say this openly: I think we’ll ease things, but it will be the executive committee who will decide if it is to be eased or something like that, and the outcome will be known by the end of June.

“I think the regulations have been very good and it is the clubs who voted for FFP.

“But the French press say it is not right that [Chelsea owner Roman] Abramovich can buy many players and in France they cannot buy them. But if the Qataris had bought AC Milan the French would also say we should make financial fair play even tougher. As it is, the Italians wanted it eased.”

Tucked away within that statement is the revelation that Uefa know exactly what is going on in terms of Qatar buying up the world of football, and they are fairly fed up with it.   (Meanwhile, there has been more trouble within the home of the winter world cup, and I’ll come back to that in another article).

Jean-Louis Dupont, the lawyer who is taking Uefa to court on behalf of the oil funded clubs said, “When the exact content and scope of these changes are known, we will consider with our clients how this development, which on first sight appears favourable, is likely to meet their legitimate expectations and influence the conduct of ongoing actions.”

Either way, the dream of controlling the oil rich seems over.  What is rather sickening is that the clubs (especially Man C who are involved in the world-wide franchising scheme) and their lawyers have presented FFP as something that favours the rich established clubs and that this is not fair.  The notion that allowing Man C to buy everyone they want, and to set up endless franchised sub-units across the globe, while only pay the UK treasury £3m a year in rent for their stadium, is itself fair seems rather odd to me.

If we think of the history of football it is clear that there have been clubs that have accumulated wealth and those who have not.  When Arsenal reformed itself after the awful years under Billy Wright the club was faced with a Man U side that earned ten times Arsenal’s income, because of its worldwide marketing achievements.  Arsenal fought back by building better teams, and eventually a better stadium.

When Arsenal were sinking fast in 1925 with a stadium only one third full and relegation on the horizon, Arsenal brought in Herbert Chapman in order to play themselves into a position where the stadium was regularly packed and so the money would once more roll in.

So tight were the regulations that in the 1930s when Sir Henry Norris took £100 from the sale of an unwanted old team bus and put it in his business account rather than the club’s bank account, he was banned from football for life.  How far we have travelled – but I am not at all sure it has been in the right direction.

Arsenal’s model is still different from the rest, thankfully, but it is going to make it ever harder for us to compete with clubs that can simply buy anyone they want.  Transfers will go back to “Real Mad have offered £100m but he’s yours for £120m”, to which the reply is “we’ve never seen him play, but why not, we’ve got the money.”

Even the “25” rule in the PL won’t help because seeing the success of Man C’s franchising in Australia and New York, there is little doubt that other oil rich clubs will go the same way moving players across continents on semi-skimmed loan deals which aren’t actually loan deals, but who cares, the oil dictators own both clubs so what does it matter?

But spare a thought for dear old Fenway Sports Group, also known as Liverpool FC, who might well be a little miffed by all this, especially as this comes about just as they are involved in a long-running plan to modify bits of Anfield which is soaking up a lot of their money.

However the eternally powerful Bayern Munich although on the face of it an advocate of FFP seem rather to fancy the idea given the wealth they can call upon from German the motor industry.

So having just fought its own way back to a level playing field, Arsenal are heading back to where we started and some more creative thinking is needed.  We’ve got the stadium, the tradition and the income.  Now we need the new ideas.

And I think there are always other ways forwards.  Remember in the early part of this century, clubs all over the place spoke of “doing an Arsenal” and bringing youngsters through.  It is something we have continued to do, with Bellerin and Coquelin being this year’s examples.  If this process can be expanded further and further, it could still help outwit the effects of money being splashed here there and everywhere.

However maybe that’s for another article.

As it is, with the Premier League having already abandoned their own FFP, the mantle of FFP now moves to the Football League.  They have been rigorous in implementing it in League One and League Two and most of the Championship clubs have gone along with it.  QPR are the stand out cases of having ignored the whole thing, and this retreat by Uefa will give them hope.  Questions have been asked about Leicester, although with them staying up, that issue has now been set aside, since to their eternal shame the Premier League don’t help the Football League sort of the FFP issues of promoted clubs.

Bournemouth is the other oddball.  Their finances seem to suggest all is ok, but… I have nagging doubts.  At the moment I don’t have the time to pull all their info together.  I would like to however.

More on them anon, but today, I leave you with the sad news, FFP is slipping away.  The oil billionaires along with the Middle East dictators and oppressors have won the day.

Never mind.  Creativity has always been one of Arsenal’s strengths.

Strange days, Amusing days…

19 May 1907: Budapest 0 Arsenal 9.  This was the 7th game in two weeks on Arsenal’s first ever overseas tour.  Curiously the club played Budapest again the following day, and  the result was a 2-2 draw.  Earlier in the tour Arsenal had played SK Slavia twice. The reason for these arrangements are not known.

19 May 2013: Newcastle 0 Arsenal 1.  Arsenal ended the season with a 10 match unbeaten run . Koscielny scored and Arsenal retained their position in the Champions League while Tottenham fans celebrate an imaginary Newcastle equaliser which would have given them the European place.

We tweet @UntoldArsenal, often for reasons that are not always clear at the time.

59 comments to Farewell top level FFP; Football League it is up to you

  • Blacksheep63

    “the lamps are going out all over Europe. We may not see them lit again in our lifetime” Sir Edward Grey, 1914

  • Chris

    Hi Guys,

    don’t know where to put this, so I chose the most recent page

    In Germany, the police and DA are going after a soccer player for a foul that was considered as an act of agression, not a play related foul.

    Basically, Reuss was hit in the tigh by a player from Dresden in teh German Cup’s 8th finals im March.

    From the newspaper story, the police and local DA handled on their own. Neither Dortmund nor Reuss started this.

    Maybe we should build an Emirates over there…..and include a police station right next to the field…..would have made for a nice mugshot collection over the years…

    Or just lobby the local DA or it’s british equivalent to start acting like the germans ? Wouldn’t this make for a interesting elements for visiting teams…and make sure the ref know that just bystanding during an agression is legally risky ?

    Maybe an avenue to look into…

    Thanks for the very intersting articles.


  • Delford Magaya

    Clubs should continue with FFP to make sure all clubs work hard for the benefit of clubs and players, oil companies should not be given chance to dominate football, it will be a big mistakes in football. The FFP should continue, and clubs who voted for it, should continue to stick to what they voted for. As we go on it will work very well. Never every allow Oil companies and those who are rich to come and dominate football, as a result they will destroy football which is the most popular sport in the world. If clubs voted for it, even the Lawyers who want to interfere to favor their clients should not be given any chance to change what was agreed when clubs voted for it. I appeal to FIFA not to allow outsiders to come and change the rules which was put in place by those who are involved in football every days of their lives. Fifa should stick to the resolution which was agreed by all clubs world wide.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Surely this should be a matter of resignation for Platini , he has bottled his flagship policy, not that he has done much else, indeed he is resistant to positive change. Clubs like Arsenal, Utd and others who have kept to FFP, in our case, maybe to our detriment should be queuing up with counter law suits. But we know none of this is going to happen and Platini is going nowhere. A shame, he was a footballer who graced the game, now a corrupt administrator who helped vote quatar in.
    But sadly,
    FFP has passed on. FFP has ceased to be. It has gone to meet its maker. Expired. Bereft of life. FFP is a stiff. It’s pushing up Daisy’s. It’s kicked the bucket. It’s shuffled off the mortal coil and gone to join the choir invisible. FFP is an Ex policy.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Sad day for football

  • WalterBroeckx

    One wonders how much money went in to the pockets of some people to make them change their minds…..

  • finsbury

    There’s an untold comparison there to be made with the link provided by Chris above and the current Kelly Smith story

  • Mandy Dodd

    Maybe Platini didn’t take so much money……perhaps just happy to help out his mates at PSG….where his own son has been working as an advisor, helping , amongst other things on getting them around FFP.

  • apo Armani

    This world is YET AGAIN heading in the WRONG direction; Noah get the boat ready!!

  • apo Armani

    Then we have this plunker who sees fit to blame everyone else for their getting THUMPED 3 last night!!! Yes Jose (another waiter) We are useless because YOU can’t manage to motivate your buss parkers to work till the end of the season – Bob Hope!!

  • bjtgooner

    Mandy you could be right about the PSG situation & Platini the lesser being a poacher rather than game keeper – but I have a feeling there are some very large brown envelopes changing hands – in conjunction with the threat of very expensive court cases – where top legal teams will distort any points/arguments to win at all costs.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Mandy, you could be right about that. FFP was needed when French clubs could not compete. Now they can and suddenly FFP is not needed that much anymore… Disgusting….

  • Mike T

    FFP or at least UEFAs version was a always going to fail. Once you tried to regulate clubs who traded in different currencies, in differing tax regimes etc you could never have a level playing field in relation to country to country but despite what anyone is saying the real blow it out of the water moment is that latest Sky/BT TV deal. In effect a club that finishes 20th in the PL has more buying power than just about all of UEFA leagues bar probably 3 clubs and UEFA couldn’t stomach the fact that PL is a wash with cash.
    The French, Italian and German clubs who were led to the top of the hill by Platini had no where to go other than March back down the hill
    The only way FFP will work is countries to sign up to their own rules and despite what Tony keeps saying at this point in time the PL version of FFP is still in process and we are just coming to the end of the second of three years that start the monitoring process. There was never any intention to use one years accounts in isolation it was always to be a 3 year rolling process
    As I have said before I am not wholly comfortable with the number of players out on loan from Chelsea but despite the clear inference from Tony Chelsea aren’t the architects of this model nor indeed do they have anywhere near the number of players out on loan that some Italian and Portuguese clubs have and as for players out on emergency loans to FL clubs there are only a couple from Chelsea the vast bulk are on either 6 month or season long loans
    As for the suggestion again by Tony that players extending their contaracts to lessen the impact of their instal transfer fee is something Chelsea introduced to get around FFP well I would suggest you refer to Arsenals accounts going back a decade or more ago and in the comments you will read that Arsenal we’re extending players contracts and the subsequent reduction in the players amortised value were aiding the clubs profits . the practise isn’t new nor is it a loop hole it’s quite simply something that has been commonplace for many a year

  • nicky

    It’s a sad reflection on how low professional football has descended, to learn that the body responsible for the governance of the game in Europe, will cave in to the opponents of the FFP Rules, due to a lack of its own legal eagles.
    And so, once again, the lawyers with oily hands will win the day for their clubs. Big business triumphs, not for the first time over the sporting interests.
    It cannot continue in this fashion.

  • colario

    Above the entry to the town hall where I live are these words ”No one is above the Law”.

    Above those words are these words ”Town Hall”

    No one is to be corrupt in football unless they have ‘money’ It is said that ‘money is the root of all evil’

    The Bible says ”The LOVE of money is the root of all evil” the rulers of football prove beyond all manner of doubt the Bible is true.

  • Kenneth Widmerpool

    The Lords and ladies pass a ruling
    The mates and friends go hand in hand
    From market stocks and the best creaming

    Paid for by the servile class
    Who have been told or lie in state
    To bow down forth and face their fate
    Oh, it’s easy, so, so easy

    All righteousness build thy arrow
    To shoot it straight into their lies
    Who would expect the mighty Justitia
    Could rid the world of all their kind?

    Rising up to break this scheme
    making equal the chance of every team
    It’s so easy, so, so easy

  • Gouresh

    I don’t know we are feeling so sad about this. Did you all honestly think that this FFP rule will ever work? I have been saying all along. The clubs have far more resources and employ far more intelligent people that plattni who just kicked a ball.

  • porter

    The inevitability of those with the deepest pockets winning this little tussle was obvious from the outset. Money talks especially in the world of football and organisations such as Uefa and Fifa are not prone to spending theirs unless there is some personal gain to be had. Where they will need to be careful is that as the money tightens it’s grip they will become redundant and a free for all will take place outside their jurisdiction.

  • Jambug

    So here’s what we have to look forward to.

    Since the dirty oil money arrived in West London.

    ’03/’04 Ranieri: Net spend £153 Million loss, 2nd

    ’04/’05 Mourinho: Net spend £47 Million loss, 1st

    ’05/’06 Mourhino: Net spend £91 Million loss, 1st

    ’06/’07 Mourhino: Net spend £7 Million profit, 2nd

    ’07/’08 Grant: Net spend £7.5 Million loss, 2nd

    ’08/’09 Scolari: Net spend £10 Million profit, 3rd

    ’09/’10 Ancelotti: Net spend £17.5 Million Loss, 1st

    ’10/’11 Ancelotti: Net spend £94 Million loss, 2nd

    ’11/’12 Villas Boas: Net spend £63 Million loss, 6th

    ’12/’13 Dimatio/Benetez: Net spend £72 Million loss, 3rd

    ’13/’14 Mourinho: Net spend £49 Million loss, 3rd

    ’14/’15 Mourinho: Net spend £5 Million loss, 1st

    So that’s a total Net spend, or LOSS as I prefer to call it, over 12 years of almost £600 Million, or £50 Million EVERY SEASON, of which almost £200 Million of it was spent by the genius that is Mourinho.

    With those kind of figures, the vested interests, the corruption that goes with it, FFP was never going to work.

    Looking at how so many numskulls in our media, and even managers of our Clubs, seem to think it’s a work of genius to spend these mind boggling amounts to win things, I can only see it getting worse.

    A very sad day for football.

  • bjtgooner

    Good set of figures Jambug.

    There was also the effect Chelski initiated in the transfer market of paying well over the odds for players which in turn gazumped interest/bids from other clubs and led to an inflated market – a route which some of the oilers have since followed – despite Chelski attempting to manipulate FFP to prevent others doing exactly what they had done.

    Similarly, Chelski started paying excessively high wages – to secure the same end result.

    What an expensive plaything Chelski have become – and what a boring gang of red card liabilities (assuming unbiased refs) they are.

  • para

    Blacksheep63, the lamps have gone out a very long time ago in Europe, it was only because the “stars” were so bright that no one noticed. 🙂

    Chris, interesting article. Important phrase i found is: “fernab des Balles gefoult” which basically means Reus was fouled “far away from the ball”, or “in an off the ball foul”. The fact though, is that the football rules leaving too much room for ambiguity causes all sorts of crazy decisions to be made. If this charge would help to make the rules more absolute? I dont know.

    FFP falling apart, and I don’t think any of us are surprised at all. It looks like money is talking again, if you got it, then you can create or destroy laws and rules, if you havent, you just have to follow them. I can see from the comments that we all seem to see the same thing concerning FFP.

    If not for Arsenal and a few other teams efforts to be creative i would probably lose interest in football. It has become a spectacle of “20 players kicking the ball from one end of the field to the other” as a long ago girlfriend of mine used to say.

  • Rantetta

    Arsene’s presser – FFP, Transfers, goading:


    I recently read an article somewhere that stated since the Russian gangster took over Chelsea he has pumped more than 1 billion pounds into the club. WHAT THE FUCK, I don’t know what the Arsenal spent over that period but I’m sure it wasn’t anywhere near that amount. Think of what Wenger could have with that kind of moolah, Mind-boggling ain’t it, Also this is for Mike T. Every time Tony comes out with an article about oil money and the dubious dealings of that lot in West London and other clubs who practice chicanery and deceit, You seem to get overly defensive. Cut the fucking bullshit out. What you motherfuckers are doing over there is dodgy and iffy to say the least. Get off your soapbox and zip it, You try to justify your club’s dirty dealings with a lot of gobbledegook and big words but it just don’t wash. Your motherfucking shady Russian gangster owner started this mess that permeates the game today and all your fucking double talk ain’t gonna change that fact. If it looks like shit, smells like shit, and is shaped like shit, Guess what buddy boy, It really is shit. Just keep your double talk to your self and enjoy the ride while it lasts, Not like your club was awash with silverware and tradition before the Russian slimeball took it over and brought in the little odious Portuguese snot-nosed translator not once but twice. Now that you motherfuckers have been winning stuff you seem to think that your club is some kind of footballing royalty, Get the fuck off your high horse and stuff it where the sun don’t shine.

  • porter

    Feel better for that Bill ?

  • TailGunner

    Not heard from him for a while (thank goodness), but he seems well informed on a certain illegall sexuall practice. I wonder if he….. no let’s not go there.

  • Gord

    A note to Julio Pleguezuelo

    One of the goal scorers yesterday, off the bar from a Gnabry free kick I believe.

    > “I’m going to work hard during pre-season, non-stop and there will be no holidays for me. I’m going to have a very good season next year and it would obviously be great to get some minutes for the first team or at least get the chance to be involved with them in training, because I’ve not trained with them since my injury.”

    Congratulations on the goal.

    While it is noble idea to forgo a vacation and train continuously for next season, I don’t think it is a good idea.

    Physiologically, we adapt to changes in stimuli over a period of something like 6 weeks. If we take a well trained athlete, and place them on a new weightlifting program (easy to monitor), we expect to see large improvements at the beginning, tapering off to almost no improvement at something like 6 weeks. Which is why many athletes make changes of some kind fairly regularly.

    Take the main exercises for pectoralis major – We may start with bench press with a barbell, after 6 weeks change to press on the bench, but using dumbbells. After another 6 weeks we might change to doing press on the swiss ball with dumbbells. Another 6 weeks and we change to doing press with a single dumbbell on the swiss ball, but when our arm is (almost) straight, we incorporate an upper body rotation to lift the weight still higher. And then we’ll change to doing the easy wrestler’s push up (clap hands in front of face). Next, wresterler’s pushups clapping hands behind head. Next, wrestler’s pushups clapping hands behind (lower) back. That is 7 different exercises, all with a large component of pectoralis major, some significant rotator cuff involvement in some, and some intent on developing power. On a 6 weeks basis, that is almost 1 year of exercise.

    And football isn’t even a sport which uses those muscles much. But, we need muscular development to help burn off lactic acid from sprinting.

    So, I would say that you should take a vacation. But instead of laying on the beach, find yourself a place to go hiking with lots of vertical, possibly with some scrambling. Go in a group, if possible. One can always get hurt, being alone if can be hard to get to help once hurt. And do things to exercise your brain, probably the most important thing in football.

  • bjtgooner

    porter & TailGunner

    I like BILL – he comes straight to the point & no twisted bullshit – unlike some other commentators!

  • Mike T


    See you are still eating far too much red meat!

    The reason I make comment is that many of Tony’s comments aren’t fact they are his spin on matters

    Go look at Forbes valuation of clubs and see how RA is , despite his huge outlay, close now to being in profit the irony is he will not be looking to take a profit or dividends from the club whereas others who were so keen on FFP will soon be wanting their money plus some back..

    As for your colourful language as amusing as you may think it is adds little to the debate but hey whatever makes you happy

  • Brickfields Gunners

    Thanks , Bill , I now feel much better !

  • Brickfields Gunners

    @ Kenneth Widmerpool – May 19, 2015 at 1:06 pm -Nary a truer word said in jest and in prose !
    You were just jesting weren’t you ?

  • Gord

    Report on the MLS website, on Zelalem’s first game for the USA U20.

    It doesn’t sound like anyone involved with writing that report, watched the game.

  • Kenneth Widmerpool

    Bricks–comes from this,the recorded original is the best version, but this gives you an idea.
    The jest from the nest or the truth on the hoof? Cheers!

  • TailGunner


    Nah!! Doesn’t work for me on any level.

  • ARSENAL 13

    Ffp drama comes to an end!! That was fast…. Hahahah

    Its a nice thing that we stick to the FFP. Morally. Financially. Its the right way to do business. What ever the business be.

    I hope for the better of the ARSENAL, our management follow this we spend what we earn mantra.

  • ARSENAL 13

    Oops….right way, not so much. Which business can survive with a 50 million loss every year.

  • Gord

    England U17 beat Spain to Qualify for U17 World Cup

    > Arsenal man Willock had England’s first opening of the second period with a low drive that went across goal and a fraction wide of the far post.

    Willock was one of the England youngsters to score in penalties.

  • Notoverthehill

    Looking at the Chelsea Football Club Ltd Accounts for 2012/2013 re Sakes to related party Mr RA = £2,038,000

    Looking at the Chelsea Football Club Ltd Accounts for 2011/2012 re Sales to related party Mr RA = £3,000,000

    Looking at the Chelsea Fooyball Club Ltd Accouts for 2010/2011 re Sales to related party Mr RA = £2,000,000.

    These sales are related to his hospitality box?

    Chelsea Football Club Ltd is a subsidiary (daughter in Russian) of Chelsea FC plc, who in turn is a subsidiary of Fordstam Ltd.

    DO NOT mention to debt to Fordstam Ltd!

  • Gord

    From left field, Mesut is easy, how do you pronounce Özil?

    The article even goes on to explain the meanings of the names Mesut and Özil.

    Now we need to find an article on how to pronounce Gabriel’s name. I’ll give you a hint, his last name does not start with Paul.

  • Gord

    Alexis has made it to the finalists for PFA Player Of The Year. Nothing at yet.

  • Gord

    Alexis has made it to the finalists for PFA Player Of The Year. Here is the Arsenal link.

    That page gives the following URL for voting.

  • porter

    bjtgooner my tongue was firmly in my cheek.

  • Jambug

    First of all I will say that I do like Mike T.

    That isn’t to say I agree with him all the time by any means but he at least tries to debate with reason and balance.

    I also like BILL very much. His ‘style’ might not be to everyone’s taste and I can understand if some find it a bit ‘brash’ shall we say, but he takes no prisoners and leaves you in no doubt as to where he stands on any issue.

    Take the above.

    I think the crux of BILLs argument is bang on the money and he hits the nail on the head when he says:

    “Your motherfucking shady Russian gangster owner started this mess that permeates the game today and all your fucking double talk ain’t gonna change that fact.”

    However it is said, that is an indisputable fact. Then read Mike T’s following response.

    “Go look at Forbes valuation of clubs and see how RA is , despite his huge outlay, close now to being in profit the irony is he will not be looking to take a profit or dividends from the club whereas others who were so keen on FFP will soon be wanting their money plus some back..”

    What has that got to do with BILLs point? ?

    Again BILL says it as it is with:

    “You try to justify your club’s dirty dealings with a lot of gobbledegook and big words but it just don’t wash.”

    And it doesn’t.

    As I have shown above, and on many other occasions, since RA’s arrival Chelsea have posted a NET LOSS on transfer dealings of nearly £600 MILLION and there’s the wage BILL on top of that.

    And I’m sorry but to attempt to justify years of buying Trophies with dirty oil money by saying “we are now looking at going into profit” some 12 years down the line, just doesn’t wash.

    As an analogy that’s like a career criminal that has amassed, a Mansion, a fleet of Rolls Royce’s, an Ocean going Yacht, a massive Villa abroad etc. etc., saying, yep hands up, I did all that, but I’m going straight now so just leave me alone with my ‘booty’ and everything in the garden will be rosy.

    It doesn’t work like that. At least not to anyone with any sense of justice or fair play.

    We all know how Chelsea have got to where they are now and no amount of Mike T’s double talk, or as BILL says ‘Gobbledegook’ is going to change that.

    I’m with bjt on this. Keep up the good work BILL. And if you don’t like what, or how, BILL says things, you can always skip past it, but I would suggest you don’t because beneath the raging beast beats the heart of an intelligent and insightful human being. 🙂

  • Rantetta

    BFM, Jambug,


  • Mike T

    Jam bug

    The reason I talk about Forbes valuation is that Bill talks about the monies RA has pumped into Chelsea , my point is that if the Forbes figures are correct his total outlay, which includes the original purchase price and indeed his capital supporting the year on year losses is ineffect balanced out. irrespective the sum being quoted isn’t the sum paid to CFC it’s the sum RA has put into Fordsham a company whose assets extend further than the football club

    You talk about facts being that RA is the reason that wage and player transfer inflation is down to him. that’s an opinion not fact. I accept that your opinion says one thing and my opinion another and it’s clear we both believe we are right

    You talk about transfer loss how does that factor in the current value of the players? Or isn’t that relevant

    Bills language is Indeed colourful It doesn’t work for me but is tolerable but when it extends to personal insults the credit ability of his contribution for me is significantly diiminished

  • Jambug

    Mike T

    “You talk about transfer loss how does that factor in the current value of the players? Or isn’t that relevant”

    Not really, because every squad you will of had would of carried a ‘current value’ that would be quite high.

    But that’s part of what creates your massive net loss in the first place isn’t it, because you very rarely do cash in on those assets do you?

    It’s one of the massive differences, and advantages, you have had over Arsenal these last 10 years.

    You don’t have to cash those assets in do you? You can just keep them until they are either too old, well past there best, or not good enough anymore, and that is a massive part why you have a net loss of almost £600 Million on transfers, where as Wenger, in order to balance the books has had to cash many of his assets in, some voluntarily, some less so.

    So no, you cant count there current value.

  • M18CTID


    While I’ve long been in no doubt about your feelings towards the owner of Chelsea and City and how both clubs are run, I think you’re missing the main point or points of Mike T’s post and that is that Tony routinely posts inaccurate information on a variety of topics and Mike T was merely correcting him. Tony even pissed off a load of Bradford City fans the other week for inaccurately claiming in his headline that the Bradford fire was started deliberately even though the recent story is nothing more than speculation. Believe me, a lot of Bradford fans were upset about that and it would benefit everyone, not least Tony himself, if he stopped stating certain things as fact and instead make it clear that he’s expressing his opinion. I must admit though that I found Bill’s post quite entertaining even though he holds a similar view about City 😉

    As for the FFP debate itself, I’m not going to go over old ground. The debates regarding City have been done to death on here and elsewhere and I’ve nothing new to add on that angle. However, this news of a supposed “relaxing” of the regs amuses me from the point of view that it appears in part to have been engineered by 2 out of the 3 clubs that Platini cited back in 2009 as being in favour of FFP – AC Milan and Internazionale. I’m guessing Platini’s “2 faced” comment was aimed at these two clubs. It’s also interesting seeing Wenger’s comments that the new Premier League TV deal has perhaps annoyed some of the continental clubs. Personally, I don’t see how they can complain – as far as I’m concerned a product is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it and the English Premier League has, over the years, marketed itself so well that it is now by far and away the most popular league in the world. I didn’t see much sympathy towards England back in the 1980’s when the game over here was on it’s uppers and nowhere near as marketable as La Liga and, moreso, Serie A, with most of the best players in the world plying their trade in either Spain or Italy at the time.

  • Jambug


    Yourself and Mike T can dance around this issue as much as you like but without BILLIONS of pounds loaned (yeah right) to both of you it would be very unlikely either of you would be in the position you are now.

    If you are seriously trying to tell us that everything ‘loaned’ to either of you has been paid back (as you do a normal loan or debt) and so now you are in profit then I just don’t believe you.

    You know as well as I do some of the most creative accounting in the history of man kind is going on at both of your Clubs, because that is what having BILLIONS of pounds at your disposal enables you to do.

    I think you are both reasonable guys but you are both deluding yourself if you think anyone other than Chelsea fans are fooled by this ‘we’re in profit now’ guff.

  • M18CTID


    Woah, hold on a sec – you spectacularly missed my point mate! I’m not talking about whether Chelsea are profitable or not – I’m referring to Mike T debunking various other points that Tony made such as his implication that Chelsea are the architects of exploiting the loan system, are the architects of extending the contracts of players for amortisation purposes, and Premier League FFP has been scrapped. I’m sure you know as well as I know that it hasn’t been scrapped at all as it’s actually in it’s second year and there has been no statement to suggest that Premier League FFP has been scrapped. At no point was I referring to whether Chelsea (or City for that matter) are profitable or not.

    Are you happy that the author of this page regularly posts untruths on a variety of topics and rarely holds his hand up when challenged? Even if my best mate was doing such as thing, I’d feel inclined to pull him up on it!


    Jambug, I thank you for leaping to my defense. My dear mother always said that the truth shouldn’t hurt, But it seems some people can’t handle the truth. The very second I saw what Tony had written, The first thing that came to mind was that Mike T. is gonna come on this site with plenty of double talk and bullshit to try to refute it. MY MY MY, Was I ever proven right. I may not be very well educated and I am just a plain speaking man, But I ain’t a pointy-headed idiot either. I can think for myself and recognize when something is rotten in Denmark so to speak. As for the motherfuckers who don’t like my choice of words or style all I gotta say is too motherfucking bad, I am what I am and I ain’t changing for nobody so deal with it or as my pal Jambug says just don’t read my comments. No one is holding a gun to your fucking heads, Any motherfucker is free to skip past my comments. No worries, Little Bill’s feelings won’t be hurt in the least. Jambug, Please give my warmest regards to the beautiful and gracious Mrs Jambug. She does have a thing for the bad boys and there is no badder motherfucker than Bill.

  • Will Rickson

    Right you say that that FFP has been scrapped wrong its being relaxed in Europe apparently no proof or details yet and will remain in the premier league. The quotes you use from Plattini rule out City being behind any changes in the rules.But it fits your agenda. City Earn more than you and all but 5 or 6 other clubs and we have a top squad so its the other clubs especially in Italy that need to spend and and loose money. I suspect as has been pointed out to you the changes come from AC and Inter Perhaps even United who even though they make lots of money are starting to spend insane amount unsuccessfully and now might start loosing money.

  • Jambug


    We may be at cross purposes.


    I posted some stats referring to Chelsea’s enormous spend/loss over the last 12 years.

    What I was doing was suggesting that if FFP was defunct this is what we have to look forward to. I don’t know if it is or isn’t.

    But from what I can gather it is being relaxed, and as far as I could tell it was struggling to achieve it’s goals as it was, so I cant see Chelsea, or yourselves, being reigned in to any real degree in the long run.

    Too much power. Too much money. Too many ways around it.

    @ 9:17am

    I responded to a post by BILL.. and this point in particular:

    “Your motherfucking shady Russian gangster owner started this mess that permeates the game today and all your fucking double talk ain’t gonna change that fact.”

    Although put in language not to everybody’s taste I thoroughly echo his sentiments.

    Okay, I said it was a fact, when it is an opinion, but I challenge you to point the finger at any other Club that set us on this path to where the only way to win a title is to invest 100’s of Millions of pounds you haven’t earned.

    A financial model that is so flawed, and favours the participating Clubs to such a degree, that a specific strategy was needed to bring some kind of balance back to proceedings.

    And one more thing, it wasn’t called Fifa ‘FAIR’ play for nothing.

    Mike T says this:

    “Go look at Forbes valuation of clubs and see how RA is , despite his huge outlay, close now to being in profit……”

    If that isn’t trying to suggest Chelsea are now ‘in profit’ I don’t know what is.

    @ 2:32pm

    I responded to Mike T who was yet again trying to suggest that the current squads value somehow counteracts a £600 Million net loss on transfers.

    As for the various other points of Tonys that Mike T may of been debunking I don’t think I commented on those either way.

    And no I am not willing to concede Tony lies. If you think that then that’s up to you.

  • Will Rickson

    Whats wrong with the loan system and what chelsea are doing ? They are making money through it whilst developing talent Its efficient its profitable its morally neutral though it might not be god for football but thats hard to say depends on the development of the players and they develop better on loan than at Chelsea thats for sure. The other clubs get players on loan saving them bucket loads. Ok the clubs that sell to Chelsea loose a player on the cheap perhaps who chelsea sell for a profit that they would have been better keeping and selling later. But its always been like that Chelsea have just factorized the system.

  • Will Rickson

    Just because FFP is called FFP does not mean it is financial fair play. Perhaps instead of asking why FFP was supposedly needed you be asking why clubs needed to spend so much.Or why the rules where changed and are changing again?

  • Mike T

    jam bug

    Forbes valuation has nothing to do with Chelsea making a profit or not my comment was quite specific and talked about RA Forbes deals with the value of the business

    The Forbes valuation suggest that Chelsea Football Club, which we all agree has been the beneficiary of huge loans/ investment/gift whatever you want to call it , has risen to a point where RAs initial total outlay added to that injection of funds are near enough equal and if the growth in the

    The trouble in all this is that whilst we are of course talking about football clubs these clubs are companies so in terms of how they now are run, access to capital etc is a whole different ball game,if you excuse the pun,
    football clubs value in 2015 is even half of what is 2014 the value will exceed those monies put in by him hence his profit

    Chelsea are carrying forward millions of pounds in losses for taxation purposes so I doubt that Chelsae will not ever show an overall( not year on year) profit some would argue in relation to tax efficient that’s good practise so players sadly are seen as assets and like all company assets have a value in the accounts and will be traded or disposed of it it suits the bottom line

  • M18CTID


    Yes, we’re definitely at cross purposes. I was referring to Mike T’s response to some of Tony’s “facts” (not necessarily lies) while you were talking specifically about whether Chelsea are profitable or not.

    I don’t want to get embroiled in that discussion, suffice to say that your stats regarding Chelsea’s annual profit/loss since RA bought them are of course spot on without having to even check it out whereas if Tony says something I may be inclined to double check. But like I said, I wouldn’t say he lies – more a case that he’s passionate about various topics and perhaps gets a little carried away when penning an article and may state something without clarifying it first. Many football fans have done something similar at some point – I’d be a liar (yes, a liar lol) if I said I hadn’t got my facts right on every occasion in the past but it is frustrating when you see someone post something that clearly isn’t true and it’s something I’ve pulled plenty of fellow City fans up in the past.

    As for the impending “relaxation” of UEFA’s FFP rules, it will be interesting to see the devil in the detail. Can I just add though that perhaps we’re all a little guilty of looking at FFP only through the eyes of a select few English clubs and far from just being about those clubs, there have been implications all over Europe. The fact that one of the main supporters of FFP – Inter Milan – have been punished this season along with their neighbours (another supporter of the regs) now complaining that they’re struggling to sell the club because FFP makes it unattractive to a prospective buyer wanting to invest heavily tells me that there are a whole load of unintended consequences that UEFA hadn’t bargained for. Suddenly, AC and Inter don’t think these regs are a good idea after all. As for City, well an unintended but humourous consequence is that FFP enabled us to dodge 2 very significant bullets in Falcao and Tia Maria!

    Enjoy the game tonight and please don’t eat into our goal difference too much 😉

  • Will Rickson

    Cities franchise system as you lot call it will make City money but only really if it is well run if it is well run then it will produce more talent and get more into football and gain from economies of scale in market skill transfers transfer of ideas and information. Is this not good for football

  • M18CTID


    It will be interesting to see how things pan out with the CFG (City Football Group) – I’ve no idea whether it will be a success or not at this stage. Either way, there will always be a perception in some quarters that City are bending the rules/cheating the regs, and being propped up by our “filthy rich” owner regardless of what creative ideas the club come up with in terms of increasing revenue, and even if from now on we were posting multi-million pound profits for the next 10,15, or 20 years. I wouldn’t get your knickers too much in a twist about that as many of us can be at least a little bit guilty of ignorance regarding how other clubs operate. Personally I think this idea of buying clubs up in other countries could actually end up being adopted by other clubs in future (Gooner friends – don’t rule out your club doing something similar down the line) and far from the lazy argument about this being the brainchild of our owner as a way to skirt round FFP regs, this idea has seemingly come from Ferran Soriano and is something he was keen to implement when he was working for Barcelona long before he pitched up at City. The link up with an MLS club in particular is an idea he hit upon back in his Barca days but for whatever reason it never got off the ground.

  • Will Rickson

    I can logically see other clubs wanting to adopt this plan however they have less money through owners so have other priorities o and paying debt is usually one of them. Also we see it as way of making fans but most clubs have more fans but its could be a money spinner in terms of player development player sales and spreading knowledge for lots of wonga