Tottenham had a manager who could deliver them top four finishes – and as we look at their Premier League history we can see that they have not, during the Premier League era, been regularly in that slot.
So why on earth did they throw the guy out?
| 2012/2013 | 5th |
| 2011/2012 | 4th |
| 2010/2011 | 5th |
| 2009/2010 | 4th |
| 2008/2009 | 8th |
| 2007/2008 | 11th |
| 2006/2007 | 5th |
| 2005/2006 | 5th |
| 2004/2005 | 9th |
| 2003/2004 | 14th |
| 2002/2003 | 10th |
| 2001/2002 | 9th |
| 2000/2001 | 12th |
| 1999/2000 | 10th |
| 1998/1999 | 11th |
| 1997/1998 | 14th |
| 1996/1997 | 10th |
| 1995/1996 | 8th |
| 1994/1995 | 7th |
| 1993/1994 | 15th |
| 1992/1993 | 8th |
A while back we did have a very good discussion here with both Tottenham and Arsenal supporters joining in without the usual abuse and name-calling, on the issue of why Arry was removed from the club after seeming to deliver exactly what was asked for.
The general consensus from the Tottenham supporters who joined in was that he needed to go, and it must have been a brave decision (or one hell of a reason for the sacking) by the chairman and the owner to remove the man who had brought Tottenham the first part of the holy grail.
Since then we’ve done a couple of pieces on Arry Red, and made the point that in six managerial jobs he has been sacked twice, been relegated twice and overseen a period which has resulted (soon after his demise) in administration and (in the case of Portsmouth) worse. Maybe that was the fear of Joe Lewis and Daniel Levy; that they might get the dreamed for regular spot in the Champs League, but then run up such debts or such financial chaos that they would be unsustainable.
That can’t be the whole picture since Joe Lewis is a billionaire in a tax retreat (ie he pays no tax), but clearly something must have been wrong. (Interestingly Arry suffered a similar sort of dismissal from West Ham – a dismissal for which he still says he doesn’t know the reason, other than a slightly off the wall interview with a fanzine).
Anyway, on to the present day. Gareth Bale is seemingly going to sign for one more year at Tottenham but the suspicion is that if 4th isn’t reached at next season’s end then Bale will indeed toddle off to Real Mad or someone of that ilk. £50m is said to be the price – which would equate to the money Tottenham would have earned from the Champs League this season if they had got two more points this past season. Looks like a win-win.
There is also talk of some serious buying at Tottenham this summer. Our old chum (I use those words in a sort of post-modernist ironic mode) Emmanuel Adebayor will once more be looking for a club who can buy into his hype while forgetting the size of the man’s ego and occasionally manic activities.
Given that some managers do like to bring along the players they have looked after in an earlier life there is talk of Hulk and Joao Moutinho [although as I write this the news has come through that he is going to Monaco – the latest club to join the Man C, PSG, Chelsea approach] going to Tottenham. Not to mention Leandro Damiao and Christian Benteke.
But if the expenditure both on salaries (which in the case of Bale will be massive this summer) and transfer fees, does take off this summer, and Tottenham do qualify for Europe next season questions of FFP might arise – although not enough to keep them out of Europe. The expenditure on the new stadium (which as I mentioned recently, has not had its page on the official Tottenham site updated since last September, when news about the new supermarket was released) will not count in FFP terms, but transfers and salaries most certainly do.
So let us look at some figures – these are all 2011/12 – the latest available for all clubs.
| Turnover (£m) | Debt (£m) | Wage % | |
| Man U | 320 | 366 | 51 |
| Chelsea | 261 | 878 | 66 |
| Arsenal | 245 | 98 | 58 |
| Man City | 231 | 58 | 87 |
| Liverpool | 169 | 87 | 70 |
| Tottenham | 144 | 70 | 63 |
| Newcastle | 93 | 129 | 69 |
| Everton | 81 | 46 | 78 |
|
Team |
Turnover |
Matchday |
Broadcasting |
Commercial |
Wages |
| Arsenal | 245 | 95 | 85 | 34 | 143 |
| Chelsea | 261 | 78 | 113 | 70 | 173 |
| Everton | 81 | 17 | 53 | 11 | 63 |
| Liverpool | 169 | 42 | 63 | 64 | 119 |
| Man C | 231 | 22 | 88 | 121 | 202 |
| Man U | 320 | 99 | 104 | 118 | 162 |
| Newcastle | 93 | 24 | 56 | 14 | 64 |
| Tottenham | 144 | 21 | 59 | 9 | 90 |
We can see that Tottenham’s matchday income is second lowest in this selective table only to Everton, and yet on a like for like basis (that is, including the same number of cup matches, and matching seat situations) they are the most expensive club to watch. (Arsenal is often quoted as this, but that analysis ignores both the type of seats and the fact that Arsenal season tickets include seven cup games).
Tottenham also get the lowest commercial sponsorship income – and obviously have a huge opportunity to expand this if they get into the Champions League. Arsenal’s £34m is, as we know, growing greatly, as the old front-loaded deals which were associated with the new stadium, have ended, and the new deals are much, much, bigger. (Interestingly Liverpool’s deals have stayed high, based on their past reputation but their prolonged exclusion from Europe must have an impact when the next round is sorted.)
So Tottenham’s strong investment in players this summer will be a little bit of a gamble – not because their backer is short of a dollar or two, but because of FFP in the longer term, if the much promised stadium does not come alive.
But at present there is no problem. Tottenham announced a loss of £4.3m for the 2011-12 financial year, and it was said at the time this is primarily due to the absence of Champions League football. Even if they were in the Champs League such a small loss would not in any way affect their position under FFP.
Tottenham and Arsenal are united in trying to bring FFP into the Premier League as well as into Europe, and certainly when the new stadium is built they will undoubtedly be able to make a profit, as Arsenal does if they have regular Champs League games on offer.
Unless of course Tottenham take the gamble and spend an awful lot on players, but don’t get ahead of Arsenal.
Now of course this is where it gets tribal and we all retreat into our support for one team or the other. But trying to be neutral (which of course as an Arsenal supporter I can’t be) the issue has to be this:
Manchester United have huge income from world-wide marketing. It has always been their strong suite, and it is hard to see anything touching that. Maybe their manager will not achieve as much as Sir F-word, but the money will still pour in.
Manchester City and Chelsea have as much money as they want. The only difficulty they might have is FFP, and if they do, then the writs will fly, either from Arsenal and Man U claiming that Uefa is not fulfilling its obligations under FFP, or from Man City and Chelsea claiming FFP is anti-competitive.
Arsenal, perennial occupiers of 3rd or 4th in recent years, are now, for the first time in years, ready to spend, and although of course Mr Wenger might spend badly, or not at all, I think that of all outcomes those are unlikely.
Which means that for Tottenham the outcome most likely to suit them is the refusal of Uefa to licence either Man C or Chelsea for the Champions League. If that doesn’t happen it looks to me as if Arsenal, Chelsea, Man C and Man U are going to be hard to beat, to get that top spot.
Of course I could be very wrong, and as you know I am a third generation Arsenal fan, so naturally I would see things this way.
25 May Anniversaries
- 25 May 1929: Billy Blyth transferred to Birmingham
- 25 May 1935: Dennis Compton signs professional forms with Arsenal
- 25 May 1944: Joe Wade joined Arsenal
Recent posts
- Match Review: Jonathan Moss – Queens Park Rangers Vs Arsenal (0 – 1) [04/05/2013]
- After all our pressure Premier League refereeing is about to change. But…
- The new football: Man C enters MLS with Yankees. Any more?
The detailed study of Premier League Refs:The referees 2013.
The books…
- Woolwich Arsenal: The club that changed football – Arsenal’s early years
- Making the Arsenal – how the modern Arsenal was born in 1910
- The Crowd at Woolwich Arsenal FC: crowd behaviour at the early matches
The sites from the same team…
- Referee Decisions – just what are the refs up to this season?
- The Arsenal History Blog from the AISA Arsenal History Society
Beating TH to the top four was vital on so many levels and not least of which was seeing the look on Alan shearers face. Was last year their now or never year? The club should not under estimate them after all they made a good attempt this season but have a feeling pipping our north London rivals in the way we did has done them a bit of damage , financial as well as psychological
What a surprise – an article about Tottenham on an Arsenal website.
@ Mark, we like to include something for those Spurs fans that keep peeking enviously over the fence.
Spud in peace – nice to see something analytical and non-tribal here. I think underpinning the analysis on FFP is unrealistic. I don’t believe FFP will ever actually be used in any meaningful way – it’s legality is highly questionable and it’s so obviously flawed that it’s a matter of time before it unravels. That said, Spurs are simply miles behind Arsenal in commercial terms and, irrespective of this season’s league standings, Arsenal will always be huge favourites to finish ahead given the different wages bracket in which they can operate. As a pragmatic Spurs fan, I take heart from the fact that a club that spends £50m more per year on wages than us has fans who crow about finishing 1 point ahead of us. It’s about as absurd as us doing the same to West Ham… The irony of this is that Arsenal are in fact getting things exactly spot on. They are doing the bare minimum required to finish in the highest feasible league position – spending more to compete with Chelsea, City & Utd would not make commercial sense as these clubs will always spend even more. Therefore, keeping 4th whilst maximising profit is the best thing to do. Frustrating for the fans but that’s the way it is when you don’t have a passionate owner with absolute financial power, and so it should be too. If FFP is Arsenal & Spurs leveller, I think we’ll all be waiting a long time.
Levy isn’t going to break the bank this summer to get in the Champions League – he has a very pragmatic, moneyball approach. Even guys like Dempsey are bought in full knowledge that the transfer fee will be recouped at resale. I expect the usual squad improvements but nothing silly this summer but with a very talented coach now settled and a squad more in line with the tactics used, I’d expect a significant improvement next season. Arry had to go because he didn’t fit with the moneyball approach and generally wound everyone up by absolving himself of any blame whilst milking full credit for pretty much anything he could. He did well but he was only ever an interim appointment between Ramos & AVB.
Arsenal’s biggest threat comes from the fact that their youth advantage has been completely eroded over the past decade. Once famed for getting the best young players, the investment in academies from Utd, City, Chelsea & Spurs have seen all these clubs (IMO) become better developers of youth. Spurs U21 team narrowly lost out to Man Utd in the final having dominated the previous 2 league phases – 30 points to Arsenal’s 17 in the ‘Elite’ phase. Chelsea & City are both being very proactive in this area… this combined with the risk that Spurs and/or West Ham are prime takeover material is where I’d be looking if I were an Arsenal fan. Spurs won’t compete anytime soon financially but, as the league and revenue tables show, they are certainly getting more bang for their buck. I think if anyone needs to spend big this summer, it’s Arsenal, as, with 3 new-manager teams now above them in the table, now is the time to make up some lost ground.
@Rob> don’t you actually mean “our site is so poorly read that we have to put out a n article about Tottenham that will feature on NewsNow Tottenham and produce hits on our otherwise ignored site?” By thge way, perhaps English is not the first language of the scribbler of this looking over the fence article, but the spelling of the word in the context used is WHITHER. Illiterate as well as infantile. Thanks for the nostalgia trip as it’s decades since I last read a kids comic.
Spurs are not a selling club like arsenal though?
Yid in piece. Good article. Our big season, for me, was 2010/11, finishing fifth and not getting CL for the second year. That probably set us back more than finishing fifth this year. To be honest, I can’t complain too much about where we’ve ended up. We got a record points total in a Prem season and push both Arsenal and Chelsea to the last coue of games. Ultimately, we ended up where we deserved.
Looks like Arsenal have just clung on really. As you say, they are now in a position whereby they can start spending again, and I think that Wenger has done a good job keeping you in the CL in the meantime to keep the revenue levels high. With a big chunk of your stadium debt now gone, Arsenal could probably live with a season out of the CL and still have the clout to attract good players, whereas over the last three years or so, if you’d dropped out of the CL and were not in a position to spend a bit to recover your position, the results cod have been grim. A bit of a calculated risk by Arsenal, but one that looks to have paid off, so fair play.
I’d much rather Spurs do it your way and grow organically than just chuck obscene amounts of cash at the club. I think Spurs are on that path, but are probably a god few years behind in that respect.
The funniest thing about those stats is that apparently Manchester City have higher commercial revenues than Manchester Utd. What a con!
That alone tells you everything you need to know about their financial doping.
I don’t mind them spending money from their sugar daddy, but pretending they have such commercial revenues and thus artificially increasing profit to comply with FFP is a complete joke and is basically cheating.
I don’t think this is the end of Tottenham competing for a top 4 place, in fact I think both Tottenham and Arsenal should be aiming higher next year.
To judge the progress of a team which lost their best player and their manager and yet still managed their highest ever points total since the Premier League began is rather strange. You have to look at how Tottenham’s played and whether their style improved, not just the final league position.
The past few seasons Tottenham have had higher league positions than deseved by their style because Arsenal, Liverpool, and Chelsea have been through a few bad campains, and also Manc were not up there before. This season the level of the top teams was better in general but Tottenham were right there until the end of the season.
The form of Arsenal at the end of the season was exceptional. If they had played like that throughout they would have challenging for the title, and that should be their aim for next season.
Most squads will be undergoing structural changes this season, with new managers at City, Untied, and Chelsea, and with at least Chelsea needing to retire the spine of their team.
If Tottenham and Arsenal can take their core team forward and make a few astute signings and remain relatively injury free next season they should be challengers.
An interesting article and some interesting figures. Can anyone identify the source of the Spurs debt of £70m? – and also what the repayment terms are? With this existing level of debt can they sensible contemplate proceeding with their proposed new stadium?
Returning to Arsenal, we need to concentrate not just on the Spuds, but on our richer rivals: Chelski, Manures and Man Oilers. Our commercial revenue is badly down against these clubs and this is one area where there is considerable room for improvement.
It was not all that long ago that you were winning the Prem and the Cup and were a serious threat in the CL, Spurs on the other hand were 20pts behind you in the league. Now you have won nothing for 9 years and are in the DL just to make up the numbers cause you ain’t going to win it. Oh and Spurs are now and have been for the last few years only 1pt behind you. One club on the way down and the other on the way up.
I think Harry proved he had no loyalty to any club. He quit Portsmouth to go to main rivals Southampton, then quit them to go back to Portsmouth then quit Portsmouth to go to Tottenham, had his head turned by the England job and the team slid from having a massive points advantage over Arsenal to finishing below us. The disloyalty to the club shown by his readiness to quit for the England position and to finish below us, plus losing the CL place because of Chelsea getting their place by default as the cup holder … he had to go. If Harry had the England job, I have a hunch it wouldn’t be long before he had his head turned by something better and we would see him quit to take it. The guy has zero loyalty, he’s a quitter. Southampton were flying high when he quit and they nosedived down the table. Spurs did the right thing getting rid of the disgusting mercenary.
Arsenal supporters obsession with all things Tottenham never ceases to amase me. 1 point in it and they think that Tottenham are far behind…shows the intelligence of a simple Gooner!
@Arsenal1 Gain
I cant but help pick you up on the fact Chelsea didnt get Spurs CL place bt default . Quite simply Chelsea qualified as CL winners so too ne of the EPL places.
As for Harry he is a football man he has no loyalty to anyone other than himself but then again that just about applies to everyone in football and for the life of me I cant believe that supportres in the main think that given the right circumstances just about every player, manager, coach etc would hesitate in moving to another club if it suited them.
Firstly, a well done is in order for not referring to us as ‘Spuds’, ‘Sp*rs’ or ‘scum’. I have no problem reading what Arsenal fans have to say, but when I see one of those words in the first paragraph, I’m inclined to become a little abusive. Secondly, I honestly love how our club is run. Without spending crazy money – yeah, I know we’ve thrown big bucks at David Bentley, Luka Modric, etc, but we often recoup a lot too – and at least we know that the chairman isn’t leading us into danger, like what’s happened and probably going to happen to other clubs. I’m not happy with us fighting our biggest rivals for that fourth spot, but I do see us going in the right direction. New stadium, young manager, some top players. If we can bring in a new left-back, plus a couple of strikers, then hopefully we can enjoy another good season.
@ Robl’s ”we like to include something for those Spurs fans that keep peeking enviously over the fence.”
In fairness, this stuff appears on our official media watch page. I go there for transfer news, but end up seeing an Arsenal fan site talking about us. Not there’s anything wrong with talking about other clubs, but it’s obviously not that we go in search of these sites.
Firstly, i’m glad to have seen a page which, in both the post and comments is not scattered with ridiculous “banter” such as ‘Spurs/Arsenal are shit’ or ‘Forever in our shadow’ and actually a mature inter-club discussion.
Secondly, I think next season is going to be the most open PL season in a while. With Ferguson (finally) out and City/Chelsea both currently manager-less who knows what could happen with the two clubs next season. Spurs and Arsenal are bound to both improve- Any striker for THFC should improve them, also with Sandro & Kaboul coming back, and Arsenal know that they will have to improve to stay where they are. And personally, I think its time that Liverpool do again challenge for the top spots, the second half of the season they had was great with the acquisitions of Coutinho & Sturridge, and theyre a club that aren’t scared to spend so surely are going to spend big in the summer. It could literally end up Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal and Swansea in the Champions league spots.
Some interesting analysis from the spurs fans.Agree on the takeover scenario who knows mr usmanov may even decide to inflict the ultimate punishment on our board?
According to Note 21 to the Tottenham Financial Report, the Net Debt is comprised of:
Cash and cash equivalents ……….. £15,702,000
Bank Loans……………………….£21,312,000
Securitisation funds ……………..£23,259,000
Bank Loans (property) …………….£41,227,000
Giving a total of £70,096 millions.
Note 17 refers to Financial Instruments. Which will be “gobbledegook” to over 95% of the population!
To compare Tottenham to The Arsenal as financially similar, is a crab apple the same as a Morgansweet apple?
The Arsenal run a Reserve Team, a Ladies Team, a shop in Brents Cross, a flat for Stan the main man, employ more full-time bodies, more match-day temporaries, so on and so forth!
No matter how they try, IMO Spurs can never become superior to Arsenal as a football club. They neither have the history, the following OR the reputation of world-wide integrity which Arsenal have consistently forged over the years.
If they are able to afford a larger ground and gain some extra attendance, things might improve somewhat, but they will never be able to match the attention given to their more popular North London neighbours. This failing will continue to irritate and fester Spurs fans, adding to their jealousy as they attempt to emulate the success of Arsenal.
You obviously don’t know anything about your own club let alone Spurs. Your club moved from SE London because the owners could not make any money as Charlton were attracting big crowds to their 100,000 capacity ground.
He somehow managed to get an agreement to move from there and tried to tie up with Fulham, they would not agree to this and eventually Arsenal ended up in Highbury, this was achieved it is believed through bribery and corruption, they never won promotion to the top division once again it is believed through greasing palms, where is the integrity in that.
As some older Arsenal supporters might tell you Spurs have a long and consistent history of winning cups and were the first team in the country to win a European competition, the Cup Winners Cup.
As for support Spurs biggest gate was against Sunderland as was yours, Spurs gate was bigger by almost a thousand.
If you knew what you were talking about the two minutes I* spent reading your tripe could have been used in doing something useful.
Spurs are owned by a gajillionaire but he doesn’t pump money into the team the way the Chelsea or ManCity owners do or have the commercial empire that ManU do.
Spurs have always been prudent financially and that deserves some respect.
Nicky that is the sort of comment that has allowed our club to slip so alarmingly. In modern football history is TOTALLY irrelevant. Chelsea have left us miles behind because of a rich bloke. If someone like that took over Tottenham, they would do the same. Until the 1990s there was nothing between Tottenham and Arsenal. We got Dein who knew what he was doing; they got Sugar who hadn’t got a clue. I went through years and years and years of Arsenal being absolutely useless; attendances were rubbish and, frankly, we were not a big club. Since the game has gone international we have done brilliantly, but don’t fool yourself – Tottenham are a big club and a little success and/or a rich owner would turn them around so fast. They are playing catch-up and with the resources they have they are doing it pretty well. And right now we need to arrest a worrying decline. There are too many complacent gooners at the moment. There are others worrying about Tottenham. This shows how far we have fallen.
We could easily get taken over as well mark we are a hugely attractive proposition and not just to mr usmanov I would add. Would still rather do it on our own though
@Notoverthehill
Thanks for the info, interesting.
nonono tottenham aren’t in debt at all we actually came in a few grand in profit last season… if you consider the huge sales made (mainly luka, vdv, carrick and berba over the last few years) compared to the amount we reinvested it is the source of most frustration in spurs fans although TOTTENHAM and ARSENAL are very similar in the way we are ran, the way we play and by nurturing young talent, making them world class in the process. We should be proud of our clubs and compared to man city and chelsea, we do things the correct way. What happens if the oil riggers get bored and leave or want to play with a new toy? Both our clubs will be fighting and hating each other for the top spots, i personally love the fact we have such rivalry, yet when we step back we realise we are quite similar (you have a bigger stadium and are unquestionably better in the past ten years – no debate) but the pride of north London is white and i wouldn’t want to hate any other club so much 🙂
SPOT ON MARK MATE! Nicky you’re just in denial son we are indeed playing catch up (I was 6 when “Lord” Sugar fuc@ed us up and remember very vividly hating him for it at such a young tender age – also he let Sol walk over to you – worst day of my young life) but we deserve some respect for punching above our weight in recent years, and next year we will be even stronger.
I think in terms of a chance to make top 4, Spurs’ chance has passed for now. To compete effectively, they need the revenue that a new stadium will bring, and will probably have to ride the period of hardship that follows. You can say similar things about Liverpool (it would help Chelsea as well)
The Spurs guys do bring up a serious issue. The difference in wage bills is not worth the single point advantage. It does flag up how inefficient our wage bill is right now.
Now the numbers are always going to be an estimate, but strip away the: want aways, perpetually injured, and terminally out of favour, you strip maybe £30 Mil from our wage bill. Clear those players out, and you free up over half a Mil a week in wages for new recruits that we simply are not using right now.
Those 13 players started 29 league games between them, and the bulk of that (19 games) is made up of Diaby before he got injured, and Mannone when he was the only option at the start of the season.
In fact, over £20 mil of our £143 Mil bill is tied to players who have not even started a league game this season.
None of this is designed to defend our performance, after all the deadwood made sense at the time (except Park), and it is down to the club to get rid. What it does show is that we are in the insane position that we could simultaneously: significantly improve the squad, and reduce the wage bill.
I am reposting my comment regarding the Spurs and Liverpool situation.
I believe that FFP will help Spurs and Liverpool.
The new premiership TV deal means that every club will receive at least an extra £30 millions per year.
The new FFP premiership equivalent restrictions that premiership clubs agreed earlier means that they cannot wash that extra money on salary. Reading the small print and checking their respective situation, it means that both club will have 15 to 20 millions pounds per year to spend on non wage related expenditure.
That could be training ground, academy, stadium.
Even if they don’t make the champion’s league, that money alone can be used as covenant to finance a new stadium for the first five years.
The same way Arsenal had to find 20 millions per year, requirement which ends this year. That’s why Garry Neville is confused into thinking that we have repaid our debt.
Both club may not attract nor afford the Falcao, Cavani, Ronaldo, Neymar of this world but they are attractive to the players just below them. With a good coach, a good scouting network that could lead to a healthy situation.
The club that has the most to lose with those new restrictions is Chelsea.
They cannot expand or at least not soon (they do not own the freehold of their ground) or not at a reasonable cost (at least in footballistic term, we are still talking crazy money). They cannot fill their own stadium right now, so expanding to a bigger, more expensive stadium might not such a good idea in the first place.
As long as Abramovitch is allowed to finance them it’s fine, but the new restriction limits what he can directly contribute to the wage bill and therefore the immediate playing staff. He can try to increase the revenue but under the watch of UEFA and opposing teams he will not be able to just ask some Russian oil company to sign a big sponsoring deal that defies commercial sense. What will happen when a club like Spurs, Liverpool will generate more revenue from match day, play a more attractive brand of football? If by luck, talent, (winning the Europa league), they then enter the champion’s league where will that leave Chelsea?
Also Mourinho will always favour winning above style, that could drive Neutrals in the Far East, the USA or Africa to the more champagne, attractive style of play.
Liverpool may be viewed as basket case and no hoper in UK, but abroad it still carry cachet. Their reality TV series has been quite successful. That may result in renewed interest and support. That extra interest may translate into better commercial deals.
For Everton the situation is not rosy.
Unless they find a wealthy buyer, I cannot see them going anywhere. They have a small match revenue and no easy way to build or expand their stadium. Everton’s name does not have the same attraction than Liverpool. From a commercial sense, they are in limbo as they do not have a big international fan base. Also Everton do not have the reputation to play entertaining free flowing football.
That means that they are unlikely to attract neutrals.
I hope neither of our two clubs gets bought out by a sugar daddy, doing it the Cheatski/City way. By the way, we aren’t and never will be jealous of Arsenal. Nicky, if you think we’ve got no history, then you’ve obviously never taken a look at it. In fact we were formed I think 6 years before Arsenal were created, so really in the proper sense of the word we have more history than Arsenal.
By the way (Tony?), the numbers you are using are a bit creaky at best. Ours seem about what I’d expect, and some of the others are around the right level, but the Spurs ones are way off (doesn’t help that they are £50 mil or so from adding up). Their matchday for one should be above City and Newcastle, close to Liverpool at about £40 Mil.
A quick nose at Deloitte or the Swiss Ramble would quickly highlight how far out some of them are.
I’m not sure how much it impacts on the conclusions (if at all), but there are a couple of paragraphs in the article based on numbers that are just wrong.
Sorry.
Good for you, Mark. Nicky, I’m afraid you really don’t know football history if you think Spurs’ history doesn’t come close to Arsenal’s. Granted, from 1992 to 2005 it was ‘hell’ for us(even though we won the League Cup under our mutual old pal, George Graham, in 1999) but ‘heaven’ for you from the late ’80s onwards. The 2008 League Cup victory (under Ramos) over Chelsea at least also meant that we’d won a major trophy in every decade for the past 6 decades (a feat matched only by Man U) and dare I say more than Arsenal for the past 7/8 years, but at least you’ve been serenaded by the CL theme tune for countless years! With us, just the once (should have been last year too, and 2006, but perhaps we didn’t warrant it this year despite our points total being good enough for a CL spot for about 9 of the past 12 seasons). We at least reached the quarters when we WERE in it (think of Citeh’s two failures), and may have gone even further until Crouch got two stupid tackles in against RM in the first 10 minutes at the Bernabau.
OK ..pre PL history. Spurs ..1st (and only) non-league team to win the FA Cup (1901), the 1st modern double winners of League/FA Cup (1961). Arsenal followed them (who can forget Charlie George’s prostrate celebration at Wembley?) in 1971, and few thought it could be achieved again. Spurs were also the first British team to reach the semis of the European Cup (ie CL) in 1962, the first British team to win a European Trophy (The old European Cup Winners’ Cup in 1963), the first British team to win 2 different European trophies (The inaugural UEFA Cup in 1972), the first British team to reach 3 European finals (1974), the first British team to win the EUFA Cup twice (1984), and the 1st English team to retain the FA Cup ‘twice’ (in 1981 and 1982, following our wins in 1961 and 1962). When we won it again in 1991, we were ahead on victories of all other clubs in FA Cup history (8 out of 9 finals). 7 Charity Shield victories too. We’ve been overtaken on pretty much everything since the PL formed in 1993. League Cups, overall we’ve won 4 out of 7 finals, but despite our bad years since 1991, 4 of those finals have been in the past 14 years. Then there’s been lots of FA Cup semis and so on. It hurts that Arsenal with the stability of Dein and Wenger have achieved so much more than Spurs in the past 20 odd years ..but history? Don’t take that away from us! That is why we have the ‘Glory’ associated with our name. Arsenal have it too (funnily enough) but Chelsea and City, for all their new wealth and trophies, don’t. The big 5 from the early ’60s to the mid 1990s were Man U, Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool and Everton. Chelsea, City and to a lesser extent, Newcastle, then shoved us and Everton aside. But we’re back, and we ain’t going away, so be prepared to raise your game (as Mark says) Arsenal.
@Valentin
The Everton situation is a problem for them, unable to expand the stadium due to housing and a church. They need to move, the problem with building a new ground for them is the lack of increased revenue they will receive from this will not realisticly cover the move and the build. Unless they can build and be taken over at the same time they will stay where they are financially. With Liverpools eventual increase in capacity at Anfield and their global branding they will grow eventually Everton will begin to slip down the league behind teams that can either move to bigger stadiums and or be brought by more money men. West Ham are a prime club for a take over, clubs like Cardiff that have been these will if run properly will overtake Everton.
Regarding Tottenham will the Tavistock group via Enic still back them when Joe Lewis dies will they still see it as a viable financial business without a Spurs fan at the helm?
All these peacefull comments here make a real pleasure to read
Thank you untold for such a fantastic dialogue! 🙂
@Steve
My view exactly.
If managed correctly on and off the pitch, Cardiff could overtake them in a couple of years.
I have my doubt with West Ham. To me, the owners are a couple of old school chancers, who by their narrow vision and attitude will stop West Ham reaching its full potential.
Sam Allardyce will play crappy, hoof the ball football. He tends to nearly never give a chance to young players. West Ham has a great academy but under his stewardship I doubt any of them will play regularly for the first team. Also if you look at Allardyce, his team have never won nor even reached a league cup or FA cup final. If you target mediocrity, you will never exceed it.
A club that should be ripe to growth was QPR. In London in an catchment area with no direct competition. Area where land price are still reasonable. But with their basket case management I can’t see them doing anything that lurching from promotion and disaster. Their chance is to be owned by a very rich man. Their issue is that that man is a complete buffoon with no idea on how to manage a sport company (see the mess he is also making at Lotus).
Crystal Palace is another London club who if well managed should climb. There is no club in Kent so they should attract them.
If Leeds, one of the two Sheffield wake and Nottingham Forrest suddenly wake up, that could make like very difficult for club that seems established premiership. Clubs like Everton, West Ham, Fulham and even Aston Villa may find that they may not be automatically top dog anymore.
Persian,
I must say that some comments were not that peaceful but we didn’t publish them.
(from a spurs fan) interesting piece with some good numbers
@Spurs fans – come on you can’t continue to refer to being beaten by just a single point…The point is you got beaten…keep that in perspective please…!
@Mike T … Chelsea got Spurs CL position by default because they were the CL holders (like I clearly said).
i’m afraid the child in me just enjoyed the comment that corrected your English, wither/whither. I think he pissed the point…
i’m afraid the child in me just enjoyed the comment that corrected your English, wither/whither. I think he missed the point…
Ultimately I fear that clubs that are well run (Tottenham and Arsenal) are going to be let down in a big way by the football authorities regarding FFP. I have little faith in the ability, sincerity or desire of Uefa to impose their own policies. Especially when they start coming under fire from very wealthy business empires.
It really is quite interesting reading some of the comments. For those Arsenal fans who think Spurs aren’t a big club and that they have no history; well that’s just silly. In my view they have (had?)more history than Chelsea and certainly more than Manchester City. But every club has its misinformed supporters as shown by some of the Spurs fans comments on here about bribery and corruption under Henry Norris.
Some of us are fast approaching our fifties(or are older) so perhaps we have a different perspective on clubs and their history, perhaps more so than those that are younger; some just might not give a monkey’s or think its not relevant if they weren’t born at the time! I still hold a healthy respect for Wolves, Nottingham Forest and both of the Sheffield clubs to name but a few.
It is interesting times for next season. Both Spurs and Arsenal have stability. Arsenal can stretch their legs financially a bit. Utd, Chelsea, City and Everton will all be under new management. Will United slip back under Moyes? If they do Arsenal need to be right in place to capitalise.