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By Walter Broeckx
For those who just sit there…..
As there still is a bit of time before we start playing again I find it the right time to look at the new season. And in fact I don’t mean the season in terms of games of results. No I refer to the new season for us as supporters.
As every year the transfer period is a period where a lot of fans get very nervous. Maybe even more nervous than when we actually play a game. I am a bit of the fan who gets more nervous before we play and in this time of the season my mood goes from laughing out loud to shaking my head in disbelief to very angry. Depending on the stream of rumours that I read.
Of course we don’t have much to say or influence on the signings that will be made. We can suggest dozens of names, nobody at Arsenal who works in the management will say to Wenger: “You know blog X said we should buy player Y this summer, shall I offer him a contract?” We can suggest all of the players to be sold because there are rubbish or want to go or are greedy …. We still have no influence on this.
But there is one thing in which we fans do have an influence. I think we fans and in this case I certainly look at those fans who attend the games in person as they can really make a difference and influence the transfer market.
To explain this I will go back a few years in time. We just had been robbed by the refs of the title in 2007-2008. Adebayor just had his wonder season. And in the closing season he went to the media and gave press conferences on how good he really was. And how he was wanted by ….well any top club in the world. And to convince him to stay at Arsenal he only needed a very big pay rise.
He stayed but the fans didn’t like his behaviour at the time. They didn’t like him asking more money. I can understand those fans. It doesn’t feel nice to hear a player talking about other clubs, demanding more money when you still have a few years left on your contract. We fans are loyal and we ask the same from our players. But on the other hand if we are doing a great job for the company we work for, we also would like to see the boss giving us some more money. This is human and understandable.
So I didn’t have a real problem with Adebayor asking more money. I had a bit of trouble with him talking about those other teams, but well I never have been highly impressed with the intellectual capacity shown by Adebayor. So I put it down to that and I must say that later on he proved me right each time with his stupid statements and remarks.
But when Arsenal played their first game in the Emirates the next season I was there. And I heard a certain part of the fans boo him. I didn’t boo him. As I never boo a player. Not an Arsenal player in fact. Never an Arsenal player.
Because I think that from the moment a player has signed his contract for Arsenal I embrace him and I support him. I may not like his attitude. I may not like his personal life. I may not like the way he does his hair. I may not like the way he behaved during the summer. But when the ball starts rolling I only have two categories of players. The good ones who are wearing the Arsenal shirt and the bad ones who wear another shirt.
But other fans thought it necessary to boo Adebayor. And I think from that moment on it was clear that he was on his way out. The only way he could win those supporters back was by scoring another 30 goals a season. But as he felt not loved and not wanted any more you could see him dropping his shoulders. And he was a shadow of the player he was the season before. He became ever more lazy than before , was offside a dozen times each game because he came back to slow. And these are the only things I have always said in a negative way about him.
The relation between Adebayor and the supporters was broken. First of all by his behaviour in the summer period but also because a part of the fans felt the need to boo him.
And this is where I think we should have learned our lesson by now. Whatever is said and done in the summer season doesn’t matter any more when the ball starts rolling again. If a player is still an Arsenal player we should support him. No matter how we may think about him when they are Arsenal players they need our support. And my support they will get.
So when I was speaking about us fans having an influence on the transfers (in and out) it is by showing our support to every player who is an Arsenal player. Because Adebayor didn’t feel loved any more and wanted out (and also wanted even more money). But the same could happen again with other players.
At the end of the day I don’t think a player will stay because we supported them. But I do think that a player could leave when he is being booed by the fans. But I also do think that a player that is being booed by the fans will not produce what he can produce. Would you work your socks off if you get nothing but bad words from your surroundings? The chance you will say f*ck *ff is a real possibility I think. Well the same goes for our players.
And so we fans could be the most important transfer that Arsenal can make this season. Why don’t we start by supporting the players no matter what happens. Some players have hinted at games in which the Gooners in the Emirates raised them to a higher level. Barcelona, Everton, Manchester United,…. Games that for various reasons was won with the help from the supporters in the Emirates.
So let us all transfer ourselves this summer. Let us transfer ourselves from the fans that are just sitting there in the Emirates to supporters who support the own team and all the players. Transfer ourselves to supporters who breath in the neck of the players of the other teams. Transfer ourselves to supporters who put pressure on the ref. All this could make the difference for the players on the field. No need to say this doesn’t apply for those who already have supported the players like it should be. They just can carry on like they did before.
But no excuses any more from next season on. Each Gooner that leaves the Emirates should have lost his voice while singing and shouting during the game. Because when we demand passion from the players on the field, we should also show our passion in the stands. And when they are exhausted after the game, we also should be exhausted from supporting the players. The players shirt should be wet after the game, but our shirts also should be wet after our support.
So let us do the best and the biggest transfer business of the summer season: let’s give our team the loudest and the best support 60.000 people can give. Now that would be a major signing for the team. Why don’t we all be one of those 60.000 new signings.
On the History Channel
When we lost 6-1 to Man United
The Untold Tactical Review
The tactical review: The attacking force
The tactical review: Ball playing defenders
The tactical review: Set plays and centre backs
And…
The story of the last time something odd went on.
Can only say one thing – whether a person is an Arsenal player, or he’s Arsenal’s manager, or any Arsenal supporter, if he keeps something ahead of the club, which he feels is more important, then he’ll get hammered.
In case of Adebayor or Ashley Cole, they put money, which i guess they have already earned more than enough to last their entire life time, then its time for the fans to show what they think of them. And believe me, its better not to have such people continue in our squad.
The booing of Adebayor was understandable to some degree (although it always seems counter-productive to boo your player). The booing of Eboue v Wigan was completely out of order though, and raises questions as to whether that mindset is still present within some of our matchgoing fans
I think dismay and displeasure against certain players has always been present – although generally far less at Arsenal than at most clubs. I do recall that Martin Hayes had such a hard time of it at Arsenal that George Graham admitted that he tended to play him more in away matches than home games.
And just as we all have our favourites we also all have players who we really think can’t cut it. Certainly there are always players who people writing to this site say are not up to standard. Song in particular I remember being told was not good enough to wear the shirt in his early days.
But it happens in all clubs. I don’t know why, but it is always there. Anyone of a certain age will remember how at West Ham the “fans” there used to boo one or two players when their names were called out on the PA system before the match even started. Mind you I think that was racist.
Yet that raises another question – is it ever right to criticise a player in the current squad. The booing of Eboue when he was subbed as a sub happened as he walked from the pitch after playing very poorly. (That does not mean I support the booing – I was at the game but did not boo). He was not booed, as far as I could tell at the game, while he was playing.
So a player who brings down the performance of a team does not deserve to be booed??
I thnk its a highly subjective matter. And plus in this article, its been said that booing players will bring down their confidence and hence their performance, but then i cite the example of Rooney, who himself got booed by the ManU fans last season and came back strongly to help his team win. All i’m saying is that its a players mentality also. If a player is mentally strong, then he’ll overcome such situations to come back strongly.
@Walter We have seen that during the pre season Arsene signs a few unknown, usually French or French speaking, players with immense potential…
The rest of this comment can be found from the blog it was lifted from verbatim… right about here:
http://arsenalanalysis.blogspot.com/2011/06/why-is-redknap-doing-all-deals-that.html
nice art, the home support last season was embarrassing. do the regulations and layout play a part also though? i remember scsczzyzcsyycs on a recent video specifically stating that the away support was good with no mention of the home support. i dont think ive heard the players single out the home support as being good. tis a shame.
the 12th man we no doubt play a big part as always. i agree to a point with dp that their mentality should be strong enough to overcome but were all human and it boils down to situations.
to answer the question though l think we can confirm the 12th man signing but it will be a pale imitation of a real supporter who bleeds red and white. nothing more than a well paid customer.
snehal tut tut. are you in love with twitch face? is it ironic that someone who comes across as asian is calling for british steel? and you say he is stealing a march on us yet again, how precisely? to my knowledge even when things are going very wrong we still manage to outchieve em.
Tony,
It’s a lost cause I’m afraid. When last year the fans couldn’t support a team with a very realistic chance at the title, then you know that it actually isn’t about the team anymore. It’s about wanting gratification through trophies as a matter of course, and of coveting the big name (big money) players that they enviously see other clubs parade.
lmfho, sne the metallic woolbird. at least have your own opinion. dam.
@ak47
Wenger himself in at least 3 different interviews has specifically mentioned the away support being fantastic, with the home support not being mentioned.
Dark Prince, I think only when that players does it on purpose. Just take Eboue I think everyone could see that he was trying to do his best and all and everything went wrong. And it got from bad to worse and at the end he could do nothing right anymore. I think even a throw in went horribly wrong. But I cannot think that he did this on purpose. So I would try to give him support and not put him even deeper under the ground. Just imagine how it must feel to live with the fact that you are messing up in front of 60.000 people watching and god knows how many millions on tv. That alone must feel terrible. I think no player will act in such a way and say: now I will screw up everything so they can all have a laugh at me….
Mind you I think Eboue came back stronger at the end but was it the booing that made him stronger or was it because he himself wouldn’t accept a repeat of this embarrassment?
@shard
really? didnt see that, real shame. you’d think there would be something going on behind the scenes to sort this out. unless they already have and came to the conclusion that this way in the long run will benefit the club as they will be able to bring price tickets down as commercial revs increase. bit of a catch 22 though i think. and the refs wont be helping.
@ak47
Ya, it’s been on the ATVO. Or Arsenal Player now I guess.. I’m sure they have looked at it, and the only way I can think that the club can solve it is to make a ‘big name’ signing. that sort of money spent may just be the encouragement that certain fans need. It’s sad but that is the only realistic solution at hand in my opinion.
I hope you don’t seriously think Arsenal will bring ticket prices down. A few may happen as a PR thing, but no company will bring down prices while there is demand. The club are looking at getting some more churn in tickets though. That is why the red level ticket quotas have increased, and probably why Silver membership prices have shot up.
the solution of the refs can only come from back channel diplomacy. there is no other recourse but to talk to the Premier League and FA about these injustices. How to get them to cut it out depends though.
Have to agree on the away support being better. Last home game i got to i was asked by a waste of a seat (what ever it was, it wasn’t a fan anyway) if i would mind turning it down a bit. I thought it was a joke at first, turns out he was serious but he never felt he should give up his season ticket for someone who wants to support the team.
I dont get to many games but i have experienced enough to see that most people who go do so out of habit rather than support it would seem. For god sakes, give up your season ticket so those waiting can get in there.
Ok, rant over!
@Walter, Tony: I think that access and knowledge – both within UA and surely to newcomers – of Walter’s End of Season review (4 parts, I think) are in danger of being lost (a) as reference points going forward into next season; (b) as having been done at all for newcomers and for mailing links to them to friends. To my lights, those reports are the singularly MOST IMPORTANT product of UA’s last year’s efforts. Right now the reports are buried somewhere in the scroll down on the home page, when the should be highlighted atop the home page, or somehow offset in a box of their own. I feel that they are insufficiently highlighted and being lost to the memory hole. Please do something to bring them front and center, as they are being lost in the current flow of good articles, when, in fact, they are superior and that important to keep in focus.
@ Walter
Agree totally with your post and your comment above.
@ DP
Ditto to what ak47 said about mentality.
Also, why not look at it like this – does it do any harm to refrain from booing? No. Could it do good? Yes. Does it do any harm to boo? Yes. Can it do any good? No. Put like that, the way to behave seems obvious.
@ Tony
Eboue was booed before he’d even stepped onto the pitch in that Wigan match.
@Walter- Eboue had become a liability to the team that time. So much so that Wenger had to substitute a sub.
You have to understand that the fans have a limit for their patience. If a player consistently plays poorly then he’ll definately get the stick. It doesn’t happen if its a one off game. But when it becomes consistent, the patience level for the fans get crossed. Let me give you the example of Arshavin this gone season, his shots were really poor throughout the season. And eventually he got booed in one match. He did somewhat redeem himself when he scored the barca goal. But overall you can sometimes see that fans are frustrated of him as well.
Not only that, look at our own Manager, Wenger. A man who gave us the Invincibles. Even the fans have a patience level regarding him as well. Jus feel the fan sentiments. Though majority still want Wenger to stay, if Wenger still continues to falter then one day he too might get the stick from the fans. Infact, he did get booed this gone season but still it was a minority. But if Wenger continues like this then that minority might become a majority one day. Nobody wants thats to happen, but eventually everybody wants the club to achieve success.
@FunGunner- Every player has his chance to prove themselves. If he cant prove himself in the chances he got, then he will get the stick from the fans. Its as simple as that. Believe me, if the fans start booing a player, then its definately the players fault. You cant say that 50000 odd fans in the stadium are wrong.
@ DP
The question is, do you want to help the team win, or do you want to express your personal gripes? Which is more important?
Every player goes through runs of good and bad form. And as I pointed out to Tony, in that game the booing of Eboue started BEFORE he got on the pitch.
And 50,000 people can be wrong. They were wrong about Song.
Personally speaking….i am a very patient person….i’ll forgive once, twice, thrice….but if i feel the need to boo a player (Arsenal’s) then sure as hell i will boo my lungs out, i mean i get more a more skint every year thanks to Arsenal (as well as other things of course)so if i feel the need to vent my dissatisfaction at a certain player, situation and or team, i feel i’m well within my rights to do so…after all you said it yourself, we the fans have no influence on anything that goes on inside the halls of the emirates…as frustrating as that may be. Arsene, Gazidis & Co. have a responsibility to engage more with the fans…especially in this overly corporate, money grabbing state of affairs that our beloved Arsenal F.C finds itself in.
Onto the Adebayor matter, after what he did during “that summer” i was personally pleased that certain sections of the arsenal fan base made it abundantly clear that he (Adebayor) as a person/player/representative of our club, was not welcome any longer
Prickly subject but we as fans want our players to want to play this great club. I find it unpalatable to watch John Terry stay at Chelsea after being courted by Man City and receiving a ‘loyalty’ payment before speaking of his undying love for the club.Rooney too wanted out before a wage rise convinced him that man u. was in his heart. Fickle, us fans and let us not forget that even though he has been honest on the matter, we have a captain who wants to play for another club……so, booing players? you pays ya money, ya takes ya choice.
@FunGunner- believe me, the fans are helping the club when they express their feelings. If the fans hadn’t booed Arsenal in the last game with those chants about spending money, then Wenger would have never indulged in any signings this summer. Sometimes Managers and Players take their positions for granted. Bad idea i say.
Also, fans were right about Song that time, he got a dose of what was needed to get him going or else he would have been the same. And i support the fans for giving the required dose when needed. Somewhere i feel even Cesc is quite near to getting that dose also…
I say again, dont test the patience of the fans.
@ Amr
If it’s too expensive, don’t go. If the money poisons your relationship with the club or the players or the manager, spend less. It’s your choice, the cost of tickets or merchandise is not deducted by the club from your earnings like tax is.
@ Dark Prince
I can’t believe you seriously think the chants are what caused AW to go into the transfer market. He always looks to strengthen the side, every year. He will keep or sell players based on his assessment of their performances, not what the fans think of them. Why has he kept Denilson up till now? Why did he not get rid of Eboue? His first reaction to the chants at the Fulham game was that we would not be spending £50 million on a player because we cannot afford it. Anyway, the core question is, does booing a player help the team to win THAT game or does it help a player to play better IN THAT game? Do you have any examples of this?
Regardless of whether Song was playing badly that time, what I meant was the fans were wrong about him being a bad player. AW had to send him on loan to protect him from our fans and allow him to regain his confidence.
You don’t need to boo a player for him to know he is not playing well. The players know. Or their teammates or their manager will let them know.
I’m not trying to tell anyone how to feel or what opinion to have about any player – but I strongly agree with Walter that there are certain things fans should not DO in a match, and one of them is booing our own players – because it is counter-productive. And it’s not as if the only choice is boo or cheer. You can refrain from cheering as well, and that gets the message across. Personally I cheer every name, but that’s just me.
Haha.. So booing is actually helping the club in the long run? It’s the people cheering who are the short termists who really can’t see the long term benefits of this at all.. Never thought of it that way I must admit.
2 seasons ago after scoring against spurs i was obviously jumping up and down celebrating. only to be told by a rozzer that i had to sit down as i had been celebrating longer than the permitted 30 seconds. when i said i was still celebrating our last double at the lane i was ejected. only at the emirates.
Speaking of support I haven’t seen any comments on this site about Ivan Gazidis stating at the AST meeting lasst week that season ticket renewals were at an ‘almost unhealthily high level’. In other words the turnover that they hope for to keep those on the waiting list encouraged just wasn’t there again this summer.
He also said that the Club were as dissappointed as anybody with ‘no-shows’ and may even resort to not announcing ‘attendance’ figures at games even though everyone now knows that these are ticket sales numbers (not bums on seats) and that every other club in the world do exactly the same.
As for booing – in the cases of both Eboue and Song the most infamous bouts of abuse came when they were playing out of position and, not surprisingly, struggling. Understanding bunch aren’t we?
@FunGunner- believe it or not, not only does that chants effect Wenger’s policies but if the Chants continue, then one day even Wenger will be fired, as Gazidis said, Wenger is eventually accountable to the fans.
As for Denilson and Eboue not being sold, let me remind you, no one is willing to take them now as none of them are of any value to any big team. Also, after Denilson with all his comments a month back, y do u still think he’s not yet sold?? Its simple bcoz no good team wants to pay a price for them.
Plus booing a team may not help in THAT game but it will help the player in the long run to perform better in OTHER games. But what does not booing help?? It will not help in THAT game as well as in OTHER future games as well. So i prefer the former.
Plus i doubt our manager is clearly making our players know how badly they are playing. Its not a secret that Wenger will always protect his players. Also, have you ever seen Wenger shouting at individual players in between a game to let them know that they are playing badly like Ferguson does?? Infact the only time we’ve heard Wenger fuming on players was that liverpool game last to last season when Wenger was fuming red hot during the half time and gave a scolding of a lifetime to the players so much so that they came from behind to win that game in the 2nd half. Even fabregas and other players pointed out in the post match press interview of how much they got scared of Wenger. Now thats the type of thing should happen every time our players underperform, but Wenger doesn’t do it as often and hence the fans have taken it as their duty to let the players know how they feel. And i encourage more fans to do so.
Shard- here are your long term benefits – Denilson, Bendtner, Clichy, Adebayor, Nasri, Cesc and a countless other youngsters who left Arsenal…..a group of players who have bigger things in their mind than the club which gave them everything……
Uhhhh.. What is your point DP?
Booing during a match is of no help whatsoever, I see it as a very selfish act. It’s clearly not going to benefit the players but some will do it anyway to somehow make themselves feel better.
It’s also lazy. If a fan or group of fans is genuinely displeased with the club in some way that doesn’t involve the players there’s plenty of ways they can show it without booing during or after a match and damaging the performance on the pitch.
@ Dark Prince
What you claimed originally was that the chants were causing Wenger to go into the transfer market. But he goes into the transfer market every year – or are you claiming that he does not? The chants were “spend some f*cking money”. There may be a greater turnover of players this summer, but that will be due to what HE, not the fans, thinks about the players and how the season went. If he goes on to spend £50 million on one player, or not balance the books, I will eat my hat.
Wenger is strong enough to follow his own estimation of a player, not the fans’. Denilson has been a hate figure in some quarters for three seasons now, and Wenger has held on to him, because he rated him. Denilson even made noises about going before and Wenger persuaded him to stay. If he goes now, it’s his choice. With Eboue and Bendtner, Wenger could have acceded to the wishes of the haters in any of the last three seasons, but did not, because HE had faith in them. And you don’t even know which players ARE going to be sold yet. Denilson might, because he wants to leave. And one reason why Denilson hasn’t gone yet could be that it is only June?
Just because Wenger doesn’t usually scream at players, you can’t conclude that he doesn’t tell them, or drop them, when they are not performing. Eboue said that Wenger told him in no uncertain terms that he had to get his act together after the Spurs game in that same season, when he picked up two stupid yellow cards. So that’s one example which was made public.
The point about booing is that it actually harms the team’s chances of winning, and I see you accept that. Secondly, who has ever credited being booed with improving his game? Going right back to Jon Sammels, all I have ever read from the players is that it shattered their confidence. Eboue said he put himself back together with the support of his friends and his God. He did not credit the booing with doing him any good. Do you have any examples of a player who feels that being booed made him a better player in the long run?
Yes, the players can take a bit of stick from the stands, but concerted booing is a whole different level of venom and as well as making it harder for us, it gives a psychological boost to the other side. It should not be encouraged, in my view.
Shard- the point- if there is no present then there will be no future as well…
@Dark Prince
Thanks for that fortune cookie. But how is that related to booing?
@ Dark Prince
Sorry, just noticed this:
“Shard- here are your long term benefits – Denilson, Bendtner, Clichy, Adebayor, Nasri, Cesc and a countless other youngsters who left Arsenal…..a group of players who have bigger things in their mind than the club which gave them everything……”
Hang on – are you now saying that the benefit of booing is that it causes players to want to leave? What about your original insistence that booing helps them play better?
@FunGunner- thank you for reminding what Wenger does in the transfer market. Squillaci, Denilson, Bendtner all were a part of such transfers. Hope you’re enjoying these acquisitions. Thats why the fans started chanting the said words. Believe me, it can get worse.
Plus its a very annoying that you, or other AKB thinks that we need to spend 50 mil on one player to solve this issue. Such extremist attitude is also one of the reasons that fans have to started becoming vocal. Did you need 50 mil to buy a Schwarzer last summer? Or did you need 50 mil to buy David Luiz in jan?? Or did you need 50 mil to buy Hernandez last summer??
I dont know whats this obsession on this site about spending a fortune on a player?? Its a pitiful attitude to say the least. And the fans dont buy such extremist views.
Regarding Denilson and Bendtner, if you still love him after the comments they made, then well, your choice. But majority of fans feel otherwise.
Regarding Wenger tellin the players about their performances, well all i can say is that you too accept that he doesn’t usually do it. So i guess as a responsible manager, he should do it, whether its on the pitch or off the pitch.
And for the example of player getting booed and coming back strong, i’ve already given the example of Rooney. He had completly lost his form, his image in media was completly tarnished, his married life in shatters and he too got dropped out of the team, and after all this his statement of going against the club, and then the fans booing him whenever he got the ball. And you know what happened next?? He put his head straight and came back strong, he scored from an overhead bicycle kick against City, he came back to his scoring form and ended the season on a high after helping his club win. Now i’m not a fan of rooney, infact i hate him, but he showed an attitude of a champion this season. Thats what Champions are all about – when everything goes wrong, you rise up regardless of whats happening and do the job yourself even though the whole world is against u. Thats what our players are missing. Thats the mental strength we always say that our players lack.
Shard- that fortune cookie was for the people who are too concerned about long term benefits rather than lookin at present problems.
And how is it related to booing?? Wait for another ‘short term’ unsuccessful year, you’ll come to know.
@FunGunner- as i said, booing will help the club in the long run, if the players dont improve, then they’ll be booed out of the club and make space for other players who want to prove their worth. So in either case, it will help.
@DP
It was you who claimed that booing had benefits for the club. How? It may damage this match, or even undermine the confidence of the players we have, make them want to leave, but at least now Wenger will buy what we deem necessary. Really? Is that really your argument? That is all I could draw out of your arguments, if at all there was any point in there. If i missed anything, then please explain to me in plain terms how booing our players is good for the club.
@Shard- read my last post to FunGunner…i’ve stated how it will help the club in the long run.
@DP
just saw your last post to Fun Gunner. Isn’t it ironic that you just gave some fortune cookie advice to people who in your words are too concerned about long term benefits rather than looking at present problems, and now here you are extolling the virtues of booing by saying either it’ll help in the short term (which is blatantly untrue) or will in the long run (which is something that is highly doubtful, plus you just denounced the long term approach)
I trust however, that you will not see or accept the contradiction in your position.
@ Dark Prince
Squillaci, Denilson, Bendtner. I think all those players, when on form, are OK. But he also bought Nasri, Vermaelen, Sagna, Eduardo, Robin, Arshavin, Ramsey, Chamakh, Kos… What’s your point? What I have been saying is he buys players and sells players according to his own assessment, not the fans’.
I quoted £50 million because I was reporting what AW said in response to the chants about spending some money. The amounts don’t matter, the point is that fans like you think that a player’s quality is measured by his transfer fee. If Wenger won’t pay over the odds for a player, even an extra £2 million, that tells me that he doesn’t feel it’s worth it for what they can offer.
Have whatever opinion you want of Denilson and Bendtner. Just don’t boo our players on the pitch.
I did NOT agree that Wenger does not tell them when they are under-performing, I said he does not SCREAM at them AND I gave you an example of when he had told a player he was under-performing.
Rooney got the money he wanted – that could be as much of a reason why his performances improved. Has he actually said that being booed helped him?
Shard- i can see what arguement you’re making. But i’m not talking about a long term change in a player, if a player cant transform within a year’s time of gettin booed then i dont believe he deserves to stay in our squad. And i’m completly not in favour of waiting for 5-6yrs for a player to fulfill his potential only to realise that his heart and mind is somewhere else and starts to underperform. If thats the long term you’re thinkin of, then well, i’m against such things. And coming back to the patience level thats has been crossed by Wenger, now even a new player might not be given more than a year’s patience by the fans. Believe me, the level has crossed. It will jus become worse if Wenger doesn’t act.
Adebayor was the only player ever to wear an Arsenal shirt I despised. I despised the man, the attitude, the conceit, the lack of passion for our club, his contempt for supporters. I did not boo him, but i certainly wanted to see the back of him, for me he represented all that is wrong with the modern game.
His performance V man Utd in Champions league was shameful, no other word. I was at the game and he was offside twice at the Emirates from Almunia free goal kicks, TWICE!! Stunk to me of a player who did not give a f***k or a player who perhaps had been got at.
Arsenal is, and football would be better off without the SOB!!
However at games I am vociferous in my support and have been for as long as i can remember
@dark Prince
But I am making no argument. I am simply trying to understand your argument. I see a huge contradiction in it, not to mention gaps in logic. Say it with me.. Booing does not help players, and does not help the club.
@FunGunner- wow, so many names that Wenger bought, and who among them is willing to fight heart and soul for our team?? Believe me only Wilshere and Van Persie come in that category. No one else has ever shown the same determination, not even our captain.
And believe me, till last year, Wenger actually bought players by his own assessment , infact i should say, he bought players looking at their price tags. And hence he bought players who are either not good enough or either they are so good that they want to leave the club for greener pastures. Thats the what we have become. Clichy, Nasri and Cesc to name a few.
And whatever the fans feel of Denilson and Bendtner, the fans will boo players who they feel are not fit to wear the Arsenal jersey. I whole heartedly encourage fans to do this, afterall the stadium is the only place where fans can publicaly let the players know about their feelings.
Also as you said, Wenger wont scream at the players, thats exactly the reason the fans have taken the responsibility do it for him.
Also, regarding Rooney performing bcoz he got paid a better wage is the silliest thing i’ve ever heard. Do you think Rooney was underperforming in the World Cup bcoz he was not happy with his salary at his club??
Or do you think that Wenger is not paying Nasri the extra wage bcoz Wenger fears that Nasri will then perform as good as Messi??
Either ways, it was a illogical statement you made. Players dont perform according to their salaries.
Shard- believe me, if Wenger does the needful this summer, then we’ll be winning something this year, and you’ll realise that the chants in the last match of last season had a big hand to play in it.
Say it with me….
Spend some f*cking money…
@DP
So far you have gone all around (carousel again) yet you have not explained how booing is actually beneficial to the club.
I am not disputing people’s right to boo, though that doesn’t mean they are right to boo.
I also have not discussed so far as to why they boo and whether it is understandable. I think it is understandable, but like Wrenny I call it selfish, and it is either self defeating or self fulfilling. Self defeating if your aim is to make Arsenal win. Self fulfilling if your argument stops at Arsenal are useless and will remain until we buy so and so, or spend money, or Wenger goes etc..
The only link you seem to draw is that Wenger will now buy because the mob is baying for him to. Yet you add an if Wenger buys.. Why the if. If the booing helps then it should be certain that Wenger will buy what the crowd says he should. Leaving that aside, it’s ridiculous to say that Wenger will buy or spend because the crowd deems it. Yes, I agree the crowd can be a factor. I do. But it will never and I mean NEVER be the primary factor, and will not override the cost and budgetary factors. NEVER.
In short, booing, no matter how understandable, or how (self)righteous it may portend to be, will NEVER help the club, neither in the short run, nor in the long run.
Spend some F*cking money Wenger!!! IF you find the right players for our team, and if we can afford to spend that money within the confines of our self sustaining model.
@Shard- see, thats why i said that its become an extremist attitude of AKB fans mostly here at this site to imagine that buying necessary players for a team will result in Arsenal to become a Bankrupt club. As i said b4, we didn’t need 50 mil to buy a Schwarzer or a David Luiz or a hernandez, infact we could bought all 3 players and yet saved money. So your arguement of fans over riding the costs is an extremist view. But we still hesitate to pay a extra 4 mil for Schwarzer bcoz hey it will override the costs!! Infact this is the same site which once stated the doom of ManU, Chelsea, etc, and the only doom which seems to be happening is here at our club.
Plus i’ve already stated how booing is helpful, as i had stated in the post to FunGunner. If you want i’ll repeat it again.
Plus calling fans selfish is the worst thing you can say. People paying their hard earned money to buy the most expensive tickets in the world and see a half hearted performance from the boys and you call the fans selfish?? Its pitiful to hear that….
Firstly, I also, more importantly, called it a self defeating act (or self fulfilling) The selfishness comes from it being an ill thought out act, not (in most cases) an act of maliciousness.
Also there is a choice of not paying.. and the whole half heartedness of players (if it exists) is all a chicken and egg thing. And there are other forums and other ways in which dissatisfaction can be expressed.
Besides, How do the away fans keep chanting even when we’re losing? they spend even more money and invest more time in following the team. Is it possible that in some small way, the support has contributed to us having the best away record in the league? Especially when you consider that the players and manager have specifically commended the away fans for their support.
The times that the home support was actually there, I think we won all those times. ManU, Chelsea, Barcelona, and Everton and their ridiculous offside goal. I’m not saying it is the only factor, but surely there is enough cause to suggest that it might actually be a (small) difference maker.
Booing isn’t helpful at all. Seriously, you do not make any specific, or correct, argument there. It’s all conjecture, and not very believable at that. However, it isn’t something I expect you to acknowledge.
Thirdly, I see no extremism in saying that we should spend the money that we have. Nowhere did I say that it would make us bankrupt. I said we should spend money as long as that helps, and as long as it fits in with our self sustaining philosophy. That does not mean by not going bankrupt. We could maybe take, and pay back loans for buying players. But that is not self sustaining. And Note. I said maybe. I do not know the financial details of the club. Neither do you. Both of us have no way of knowing what our limit to spending is, and how much we can safely spend.
@ Dark Prince
Ditto to Shard’s last two posts.
I’m not getting into a defence of all the players I listed. However you accept that Wenger bought them, and therefore that he does go into the transfer market every year in any case, not just because some fans vented their anger, and that he buys who HE wants, not who the fans tell him to buy.
Wenger doesn’t buy players BECAUSE they are cheap. He buys quality IF we can afford it. If we can’t get quality, he doesn’t buy. What is wrong in buying a really good player for a low transfer fee? Your problem is that you don’t believe that a player who is cheap can be a top quality player. We got AA for less than Zenit wanted because he wanted to come to us so badly. If we’d paid them what they wanted, would AA be a better player than he is? Nasri might have gone to ManU for as little as £8 million. Would that mean that he is rubbish? No, it means he has only a year left on his contract and is not English. We have to operate within a budget and we have to balance the books. Wenger and Gazidis know what we can afford. You don’t. Plus there are other factors like who else we might lose if a player came, whether that player fits in, whether he wants to come to Arsenal, not just to the PL, etc.
Yes, some players have wanted to leave for greener pastures, others have wanted to leave to get more game time. Is that problem unique to Arsenal? No. Do loads of players want to join Arsenal? Yes.
The fans can get their feelings across in ways that are not so damaging to the team on a matchday. Why not use those ways? Who says that anyone has to scream at the players? Eboue got the message from Wenger without being screamed at.
Without Rooney’s assertion that it helped, you are not in a position to claim that booing caused him to play better in the long run. After all, Rooney has had a hair transplant recently – are you going to put that down to him being booed as well?
And spare us the whining about the cost of tickets etc. You don’t have to pay anything to Arsenal FC if you don’t want to.
Oh and DP.. the crowd overriding the (usual) cost concerns and marking a change in Wenger’s spending pattern was actually YOUR view, not mine. So when you criticise it, you are (yet again) contradicting yourself.
I was taught to never show any man more respect than he shows me… or yet, any more respect than he has for himself. The next few weeks will dictate how I and my fellow Arsenal fans will regard Cesc Fabregas and/or remember him when he’s gone. We have seen Barcelona try every trick in the book to land their man. They have openly disrespected our club in how they’ve handled their interest in Cesc. They know that Cesc wishes only to go to them and the only offer that matters is THEIRS. So they choose to quote to us what price THEY’re willing to pay for him, seemingly ready to wait until his contract runs out. They have openly disrespected Cesc by continually undervaluing him as a player and a person, making derogatory comments about him (the wear and tear comment, among a few others), and rubbing salt in the wound by expressing more desire for an unproven player in Sanchez. Basically, they don’t want him as much as he does them. Carl Jenkinson really impressed me when he expressed his desire to join us, BUT wanted to look after Charlton’s interest by making sure they received adequate compensation for him. I foresee nothing of the sort from Cesc. Rather, he is forcing the club to take into consideration his selfish interest in Barca, putting us in a terrible situation of having little bargaining power over the monetisation of our prized asset. The mere fact that Cesc is encouraging Barca to continue in this underhanded manner means that he has little respect for himself, and no respect for our club. And as a result, I’m quickly losing respect for a club I enjoy watching, and a young man I once held in the highest regard imaginable.
I read yesterday that AFC is investing 25M in a real estate purchase in Islington. Any confirmation of that anyone? If true, then there’s 25M not being spent (yet, but we’ll see) on signings. It may be good or not for the team’s prospects next season. But the fact is as Shard writes at Dark Prince, that we don’t know ANYTHING. So it’s really not possible to speak meaningfully in this darkness about what’s affordable or not. We’re smart folk, but kept ignorant of the facts. We speak of splashing the cash when we don’t know if there’s cash to splash; and we speak of staying within the limits of our self-sustaining fiscal policy when we don’t know anything about what self-sustaining really applies to. Does spending 25M on a real-estate gambit constitute a self-sustaining policy that helps improve the squad on the field? or that only helps AFC’s bottom line as a business enterprise? I’m sorry, but unlike some hereabouts, AFC’s bottom line as a business is NOT IDENTICAL to Arsenal’s well being as a football side on the pitch. It might be. It might not be. But with no numbers we do not know; and business as usual keeps fans from knowing – we have no right to know. This is massively frustrating – we spin our wheels, have the constant go at each other, while we’re kept in the dark. I don’t think fans should provide excuses for not spending; nor do I think fans should demand 50M contracts that are, like any other, a gamble. We’re reduced to lots of sound and fury signifying nothing, as the Bard put it, and I think that the business owes a greater degree of transparency to the fans so we can do more than chase our tails (or tales, choose your poison). That said, I think the energy spent chasing our tales, a full time pre-occupation, could better go into pressing for real reforms and exposing media malfeasance and the like. To put the energy into the court of public opinion for a fairer playing field; and not spent in our higher-level version of silly season speculation which, I fear, we can too easily fall into.
@Tony, All: are we REALLY reduced to arguing over the merits of booing or not? Ok, it has limited merits. But maybe we could look at whether there really are any other pursuits to debate, and which could result in change. (Those who are dug in and say nothing is possible could stop reading and save us both time.) I would argue that we remember that Walter issued an End of Season report. To that fading (albeit recent) memory I hope we get on to discussing what we may or may not do with that analysis (while waiting a year for the quantitative analysis to tell us whether or not there is something askew on the pitch). And to that end, I would urge Tony to at least put those Reports in a box with a link, rather than have those who remember them (and those newcomers who don’t have any idea that they exist at all) scroll about looking for them. I feel they are the fruit and best product that UA created this season and it might just spark additional discussions about how fans might empower themselves, that is, beyond whether to boo or not.
@Walter: you’re opening phrase, “for those who just sit there…,” is well, not exactly energizing. How about a revisit on what you think could be done with your report? Then again, even better, why not ask the UA community what it thinks might be done? Like a contest for even one good idea? It’s starting to feel like the ending of Raiders to the Lost Ark (an ancient film), where the source of power (the ark, your report, whatever) finds its tidy place in the memory hole, tagged, numbered, and filed away for oblivion. Surely it deserves something more – why not call for a proper debate? (Cheers, it mattered/still matters to me.)
@Shard- first of all, your defence was completly baseless, i’ll tell you how.
Whether you call it selfishness from ill thought act, or from maliciousness….when you say this in front of those fans, they’ll never respect you as an Arsenal fan, bcoz eventually they are the true supporters of Arsenal, unlike you who has the comfort of watchin them at home without paying anything. They are the truest form of supporters.
Secondly, you talk about the away fans spending more money which i find completly baseless. A ticket at Emirates costs more than the entire expense related in travelling to an away stadium and paying the cheap tickets over there. Pls calculate first and then make the remark. Again baseless.
Then you talk about what support the away fans show and let me remind you that ‘Spend some f*cking money’ chant was from the away fans at Craven Cottage and not at Emirates. So both the home and away fans are frustrated. Again a baseless arguement you made.
Plus, as i’ve already admitted, booing wont help in the match, but they will helps eventually. I kno you wont acknowledge it either. But thats what fans are there for, they are supposed to be vocal, either for or against.
Plus regarding transfers and financial details of our club, i dont think we both need to argue whether Arsenal can afford to pay the extra 4 mil for Schwarzer. If you still think we cant afford him, then unfortunately you know nothing about our finances. Read SwissRambler, you’ll get a better idea of whether we can afford an extra 4 mil on a goalkeeper or not.
@FunGunner- First of all, you have completly misunderstood the meaning of the chant ‘Spend some f*cking money’. It doesn’t mean that Wenger should go out in the transfer market to spend 500k on some young teenager who might or might not make it into the squad in 3-4 years. It means that Wenger should use the profits to buy quality players required in our team at present. Buyin Bendtner or Denilson or some other teenager and developing them for 5-6 yrs and then come to know that they dont wanna play for us, is something the fans are against now.
Also, players like Vermaelen are affordable and quality. But players like Nasri whom we developed so much and wants to leave after the completion of his development is the type of players we should avoid. Even Cesc, Denilson, Clichy, Bendtner include in that list. If they dont want to play for Arsenal, then dont expect fans not to boo them.
Plus a baseless arguement about players wanting to join Arsenal. Which top player wants to join us?? Other than very young players, no high quality players wish to join us. And the only reason young players want to join us is bcoz they know Wenger will give them the opportunity to play and get paid handsomely. Sorry to say, the fans are not willing to do that now. Eventually its the fans who pay for it. So i guess they have the right to raise their voice.
And i’m not gonna spare the fact the our fans pay the highest ticket prices. Hence yes, they have the right to be vocal when they feel something is wrong. And i completly support such vocal crowds. Its the only way to let the players and manager know how they feel.
@bob- if AFC spending 25 mil on a business estate is true then, its a major concern. We have to start thinking of what AFC is all about, whether its a football club or a business enterprise. Bcoz the actions seem as if the board are willing to spend when it comes to estate but are reluctant to spend the same amount on a player to improve the squad. What in the hell is happening to our club??
Just read the article Walter. Very wise words. Hope the fans who boo are listening.
@DP
If you gauge the real definition of a fan in terms of money then I really don’t know what to say. The fans who are in the UK CAN spend that money and they do it by choice, and they do it to watch Arsenal. Yes. What ever Arsenal choose to deliver. Arsenal make no guarantees and neither does any other club, as to what team will play, what trophies will come. They pay for watching the football, and they do it by choice.
If I could pay to watch them every week at the stadium I would. I have been to the Emirates twice despite living half a world away. I have bought things from the gift shop, and I have bought shirts in 3 seasons. I have paid for the Highbury stadium tour. been to the museum. Do I remember or care how much I spent on all this? No. I did it in full knowledge of how much money I was spending on what, and whether I could afford it. These were my student days by the way. In no way did my spending money give me any entitlement over any decisions that the players, the manager, or the board might make, and it doesn’t give ANY fan that right. So spare me the melodrama over real fans and buying tickets etc. They buy them because they want to, and they don’t if they don’t want to or can’t afford to, or simply don;t have the opportunity to. Like me.
Yes the away fans chanted spend some fucking money, at the last match. In fact when the match was over. They cheered their hearts out throughout the season and once the season was over they voiced their opinion. The merits of the opinion do not matter right now. The point is THEY DID NOT BOO THE PLAYERS!! And the players and manager have acknowledged their support many times.
You have a habit of making statements and then changing tack and bringing in extraneous issues. You said booing helps the club, despite all the evidence to the contrary, and in the past you have said (and still not explained) that Arsenal will suffer the most due to the Homegrown rules. Basically, I don’t think you are being serious. Merely contrary.
@bob
AFC has SOLD it’s property in the Queensland Road project for a reported 128 million, of which 25 million will be paid this year. All reportedly.
Shard- first of all, you call the fans selfish, then you say money is not a factor, then you say Arsenal needs to avoid over riding costs. You are contradicting yourself mate.
If you think money should not be a factor, they tell the Arsenal board to use all the money required to get the quality players. If you say that they need to keep a check of their balances, then the same goes for the fans. And the money spent by the fans is not a melodrama act. You dont spend the amount on season tickets like other does, so you dont know what it takes. Thats why whoever goes to the stadium, has the right to be vocal. Its not melodrama, its emotion. Maybe you dont realise it, bcoz you dont spend that money.
Secondly, booing is the only way a player or manager comes to know about fan sentiments and hence its the best way possible to express yourself. Like it or not, its essential and rewarding.
Plus if you think its not serious, rather contrary, that fans boo then you dont really understand the sentiments of the fans. As i said earlier, 50000 home fans booing together, or 3000 away fans cheering ‘spend some f*cking money’ are trying to convey their message. And its been conveyed in a better way than ever before. And its gonna get worse. You’re jus being ignorant.
Haha.. I’m sorry but that’s hilarious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4m4wbYc08k
As for your deflections of saying I’m contradicting myself, or being extremist etc, the whole discussion started from you claiming that booing helps the club. Not chants of spending the copulating money, not the merits or demerits of Arsenal’s philosophy, the functioning of the board, not the right of people to boo, nor the money they spend. Only that booing the players on the field actually helps the club. I don’t think you have proved anything that I have to refute it actually, so if my ‘defense’ was completely baseless, it’s because you provide no basis for the whole discussion.
It is not my contention that has to be proven here. You come out with a statement that is generally not considered the norm and thus the weight is on you to qualify it. Isn’t that what you have said all along about the work that Walter and Dogface do on referees? Not once have you been able to show that booing is helpful, and there is plenty to suggest, apart from common sense, that it actually has a negative effect. All the rest is fluff.. UNTIL you show otherwise. Something I highly doubt you can do, but I’m all ears. As long as you don’t climb aboard that merry go round again. Assume I am ignorant and explain to me in point by point, how booing is helpful to the club.
@Shard: Hopefully the property was sold. The article I read said that they had bought. In any case, my posting asked for further info and I’m glad if your article is (hopefully) right. (In either case, the major points in my posting don’t rise and fall on the sale or purchase, but go well beyond.) If AFC has sold the property, that’s good and hopefully it will be invested into this season’s transfer activity. Would you agree in principle? As for paying fans: my focus goes to those die-hard loyalist who after so long in reality have been being priced out of the Ems, or can’t afford Sky in this economy anymore – these are very serious sore points locally. There’s a human tragedy here that, to me, goes well beyond whether those who can afford access have the right to boo or not. Some people would give body parts just to attend, but can’t afford it anymore (and that didn’t just start this past season or two). There’s not a simple answer to this, and I don’t have it; but let’s bear in mind that there are passionate fans among us with fewer privileges, and who deserve more than the elbow or our silence.
Shard- sorry, i cant explain a arsenal fan who sits out thousands of miles away and expect he’ll understand how a true supporter feels when they are told to pay the costliest ticket in the world and expect him to remain quiet. For you, the board is right to push the season ticket prices, Wenger is right to not spend the money available on quality players rather than teenagers. So its of no use to explain you. You’ll accept whatever is thrown at you. But dont expect fans paying their hard earned money to do the same.
On how a booing helps a player or a club, i’ll again repeat what i said to Fun Gunner, if a player gets booed, he’ll come to know the hard way that he’s not playing properly, and the next time he comes b4 the same fans, he’ll realise how to perform. That for me is how its helpful to a player. Now if the player doesnt improve still, then slowly and steadily the whole fans around the world, and not just he stadiums, will turn their back to the player making him feel unwanted and soon he’ll leave the club and make space for someone who wants to perform. That again is beneficial to the club. If you dont understand the logic, then i suggest that you simply remain silent, while all the rest 50000 fans do what they do best.
@DP
So you say I am not a true supporter because I am thousands of miles away.. I say nothing because I don’t want to type just what words come to mind.
So if that is your stand, it is no wonder you will never actually debate your point, nor deign to have to prove it. Only declare your opinion as fact, distract from the weakness of your arguments by the pitiful tactics of employing red herrings, and, as a final resort saying you are the better fan, the true fan, and anyone who doesn’t agree is a faker, as evidenced by the fact that they don’t/can’t/won’t visit the stadium. ie spend money.
Good job for actually revealing what your thinking is. I think we’re done.
@Shard
Despairing isn’t it? 😀
This is why for the most part I now stay out of such discussions. Nothing good comes from it – much like booing in fact.
@Wrenny
Nah. i just wanted to be sure. Though that is a great perspective I must say 🙂
@ Wrenny
You’re right. It probably is pointless, but…
@ DP
Why are you still arguing? You said something daft, felt obliged to defend it when challenged, and have conceded implicitly that you can’t defend it. Just leave it, why don’t you, instead of throwing up irrelevant chaff.
@Shard, FunGunner- yeah, i forgot i was talking to AKB fans. Either you say the fans are wrong or you say Wenger is right. Your arguement doesn’t go much forward than that. So really cant say much to you guys. Can only tell to enjoy what the fans do at the stadium, bcoz thats what this club is all about- the fans….infact, i still dont get the point of this site and the fans like you, if you guys had to support either of Arsenal or Wenger, then i guess u’ll support Wenger. So technically you all should be cald Wenger fans rather than Arsenal fans, bcoz the fans are the ones who stay forever at the club, long b4 Wenger came and long after Wenger leaves or gets fired, so the fans voice is more important than Wenger’s voice or the chairman’s voice, or the owner’s voice… But if you guys are Wenger fans b4 being Arsenal fans well, in that case, there’s no point in arguing.
A msg to all true Arsenal fans- if you feel like cheering, then cheer your hearts out….if you want to boo, boo your hearts out. If you wanna chant something, chant it in as synchronised way as possible. We’re what Arsenal is all about, so let everyone know who we are!!
Dark prince
Tsk tsk.. Can’t accept where you are wrong can you? Stop hiding behind the supposed 50000 fans and throwing around accusations. I’m all for standing up for what you believe in, but in all the months and months of arguments that I have seen here, I don’t think even once you have accepted that you even might be wrong. You always have to be right and I think always have to have the last word. Most times you just tire people out and think you make the better points. I refuse to let you have that satisfaction today.
@Shard
I said that nothing good comes from it…. but I didn’t say stop! 😀 Any exchange involving Dark Prince is always amusing. Predictable, but amusing.
@Wrenny
Ya that’s true. though he pulled a new one today. I didn’t expect him to go to such lengths to hold onto some stupid statement he made. I have no respect for people who use money as the scale of someone’s worth.
That said, I got into it knowing full well what I was letting myself in for. No one to blame but me 🙂
Oh, he can dodge and squirm for a long time if he needs to 🙂 He’ll go off on tangents to distract you, then obsess over a couple of words you might have said to get YOU to explain yourself to HIM. Anything to avoid qualifying his initial statement.
@Wrenny
Absolutely agree on that. I think in a sense I had tired of him doing this and wanted to see how far he would go. I especially avoided most of those tangents today and tried to keep him on track 🙂 But what I meant was that I didn’t expect him to simply resort to name calling in the end. As if throwing around accusations and insults makes his position stronger. But when I think about it again. Really it isn’t very surprising.
Shard- yea, i hide behind the 50000 fans you call ‘selfish’. Atleast they are true fans. They express what they feel. And you say they are ‘selfish’. What more arguement can i make?? The article was about fans booing, and you still are being ignorant to the valid reason for the fans to boo. I guess you’re the only one not accepting that the fans have the right and exercise take their rights to be vocal. But by calling them ‘selfish’, you are just being ignorant and keeping an extremist view as a Wenger fan, rather than a true Arsenal fan.
And you know whats the best thing about booing?? Its the fact that the board/manager/player comes too know the hard way that they are not on the right track. So i’ve said it b4 and i’ll say it again, to all the arsenal fans, express what you feel in the stadium, thats the only place where you can publicaly express your feelings directly to the board/manager/player. And it doesn’t mean about booing or chanting, it can also mean cheering. So express whenever you can, there are 50000 Arsenal fans supporting you.
DP,
I think nobody questions the right of the fans to boo. But I questioned if it is a smart thing to do?
Will it help the player? Will it help the team in that game?
Thank You Walter. Nobody has said people don’t have a right to boo..
Here we go again Dark prince. Again you go off on extraneous issues. I am not talking about the right of people to boo, what the board is doing, what the manager does etc etc. You know this. I have repeatedly said this. As Fun Gunner said, you are simply going on trying to defend a daft statement you made. You may be right or wrong about everything else. That wasn’t a part of my argument at all. Just accept that booing helps the club is a stupid statement. If you can’t do that, then let it go man. Seriously..
selfish (ˈsɛlfɪʃ) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]
— adj
1. chiefly concerned with one’s own interest, advantage, etc, esp to the total exclusion of the interests of others
2. relating to or characterized by self-interest
It is a selfish (And once again, more importantly SELF DEFEATING/FULFILLING) act because it focuses on your right to boo. Not on the effect it causes. Something which has consequences for the players and the team, and the other fans who watch the game. Of course, the fans that don’t/can’t/won’t visit the stadium aren’t true fans so are irrelevant. And you have an entitlement over how the team plays or how many trophies they win because you bought a ticket to see a football match. Or you pay to buy a football shirt. Or pay for a scarf. It doesn’t matter that you get what you pay for of course. Just that you are entitled to everything you want and if someone doesn’t give it to you they are at fault.
And there are MILLIONS of Arsenal fans. Not 50000. In any case, you are not a spokesperson for any of them. That is why I said that you are hiding behind them. Speak for yourself, and what you do and why. Not what some random number of fans would do and their motivations.
And I called nobody selfish. I called Booing the players on the field a selfish ACT.
Having run along your tangent that far, I reach the limit. So over to you again. Though i really do hope you can learn to let this go.
Walter- is it a smart thing to call the fans attending the stadium as ‘selfish’???
Btw, the way Arsenal is run nowadays, is it the smart way??
Is not signing required quality players with the money that Arsenal has a smart move??
Is hiking the already highest ticket prices in the world, even though the commercial revenue is there to increase, a smart thing to do?? Is it beneficial for the club??
And after paying the required tickets, is it smart that the team shows a half hearted performance??
Now maybe you understand how the fans feel. And yes, booing in such conditions is completly smart and the right way to go.
Infact, as i said earlier, it wont be long that the majority of Arsenal fans in that stadium start booing for Wenger and put up chants as ‘In Arsene We Rust’….
It wont be long when fans start wearing black scarfs and protest outside the stadium in huge numbers against the board and their use of the profits of the club.
And yes, its the right thing to do. And its the smartest thing to do also. I rest my case.
And yes, there are millions of Arsenal fans around the world, and unfortunately by being ignorant, you dont see that most of them are already up against Wenger and the board.
Its not a small minority which is out there, all the MILLIONS of fans have started to call for Wenger to change his methods. And if you can hear it, its only bcoz you’re only being ignorant.
Jus ask the MILLIONS of Arsenal fans out there of what they think of Eboue, Bendtner or Denilson,….ask how they feel about the price rise…. Ask how they feel about Wenger not given the money even if its there…. Ask how they feel that rather than spending 25 mil on a player, the board quickly acts to spend 25 mil on real estates….
And your friends here say that fans are ‘Selfish’!!!!
Thats probably the most idiotic thing i’ve ever heard…
@Dark Prince
You know how to read. so do it. I said WHAT is selfish. not WHO.. And you have called me much fucking worse. So seriously. Quit acting like an injured party and acting as if you represent ‘fans’ and know how ‘they’ feel. Just because I didn’t let you get away with your usual shit this time doesn’t give you any license to call me names and on top of that act like I am out to offend or abuse anyone and call them names. The only one who has done that is you.
Also, there is a big misconception on how people here co-relate the fans and the players/board to the club.
Ask any logical fan, what is the most important part of a football club?? Is it the players?? The manager?? The board?? Or the fans??
I dont think i need to even answer that….
The whole club is run by the fans. Its their money that comes in, its their viewership that increases Arsenal’s revenue. And calling them Selfish isn’t a good way to support your club. If you think the real selfish people like Nasri or Denilson, etc are not to be booed upon, then i dont know which type of fan you are. Do you still cheer for Adebayor?? Do you still like Ashley Cole?? If yes then obviously i cant argue.
But the MILLIONS of Arsenal fans are not in that category. They will boo anyone who does not deserve to play for the team, they will boo any manager who’s not fit to work with the team, they will boo any member of the board who’s running Arsenal like a business rather than a football club.
Its not just a right they have, its the strongest way to show that they care. Its the best way to express how they feel. And you think its not smart for the fans to express??
I think its highly unfair, to say that the fans can only cheer and they shouldn’t boo?? Why shouldn’t they?? As far as i’ve seen, the fans are the ones who have suffered the most in the last 6 years. Bcoz they dont get a million dollar pay check from Arsenal that players like Denilson or Bendtner or Wenger gets. The fans dont earn profits that the board does. The fans dont even get the bonuses. Infact all these pay checks are paid out by the money that fans give. How would you feel that Denilson earned more than 1 million dollar from the same money that fans paid?? Dont know about u, but a majority of fans will feel sick to their stomach….and you say its not smart to express that feeling??
And ever wondered why fans give out such hefty amount every year even they feel pathetic about some things in the way Arsenal is managed??
Its not bcoz they love the players, its not because they love the manager, its certainly isn’t bcoz they love the board….
Its bcoz they love the CLUB!!!!
And the players, the managers, or the board is not what they club is about,…the club is all about its traditions, its values, and most importantly the fans!!
And the fans will boo anyone who tarnishes the tradition of the club, for eg players like Denilson, Bendtner or Eboue who perform in the worst way possible.
The fans will boo any board member who tarnishes the values of the club- for eg. The board members who make Arsenal into a business entity rather than a football club. For whom profits are more important than success on the pitch.
And i will wholeheartedly support such fans. And believe me, there are many MILLIONS of fans out there who wanted to boo the manager and the players and the board, but they were quite pleased that the 50000 fans in the stadium did it for them. Jus think if 50000 fans in the stadium wanted to boo, then how many MILLIONS out there also wanted too…
It was fun for a while but this is getting more and more pathetic. I think I’ve had enough of getting my hands dirty in this muck..
A whole lot of fluff, even more squirming, a ride down the rabbit hole with the complete package of carousel rides, pet grouses, and tangential roller coaster movements taking you as far as you want to go. Add a little bit of spice and colour with the language, a desperate need to be right at all times and an absolute refusal to let go of any little ball of yarn. Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you Dark Prince… All yours Oh Dark one.
Funny people here go around talking about other people rather than on the topic…. but hey, lets make it much more spicy….
Ask any Arsenal fan in this world, who is the person that talks about only one thing round and round again, ask who is the person who never admits his mistake and keeps doing the same mistake over n over again…which person always thinks that he’s always right….
Every Arsenal fan will chant in one name ‘Arsene Wenger’…not dark prince….
Btw, look at the hypocrisy, people here can abuse fans by calling them selfish, but they get offended when they are cald AKB fans…. Btw, is calling someone an AKB fan (Arsene Knows Best fan) an abuse??
wow!! First it was Ignorance and now on top of that Hypocrisy….
Also, if calling someone an AKB fan is an abuse, then isn’t calling someone from a ‘Wenger Out Brigade’ an abuse too… Or how about being called AAA?? Is that an abuse too??
Will be funny to see how many commentators out here were cald those names by the same people who complain about being cald an AKB fan….thats what is cald HYPOCRISY!!!!
OK I know I said I was done, but this is the last thing..Promise
Dark prince. Except the not a true fan nonsense which was the abuse in the first place, I’ll grant you all you say or imply about me. I’m hypocritical, abusive, sensitive, ignorant, and a member of the AKB (sorry couldn’t say AKB fan. That’s just funny). Anything else? I’ll grant you all of that and more, if you grant me that you were incorrect when you said that booing helps the players and the clubs. Deal?
Lol, as i said, if you want to blindly accept that fans should not express themselves….then, its your own choice…. i dont think many fans will agree to that.
I, on the other hand, will support fans to raise their voice when its required. You can expect them to be emotionless.
This is the most hilarious and ridiculous exchange I’ve read on any Arsenal blog, no scrap that, on the internet, for a long, long while 😀
I’ve never seen someone flop and flounder and scramble around for as long and as hard as Dark Prince, ever! But most amusing of all, after that whole pathetic display, in his head he probably thinks he’s ‘won’…
Can we take this whole discussion and post it as as article? This deserves to be shared with the world.
Hahaha….here is Wrenny who mid way during last season said that clean sheet dont mean anything…. wat more can you say about a guy who himself admitted that in a game, the defence is not important, the only thing important is offence….and yea, to the most idiotic idea, he even said that Koscielny and Djourou combination is as good as Ferdinand and Vidic combination….
Now what can you argue with people with such beliefs??
Deary me, same old nonsense from you DP. Twisting what other people have said to deflect attention from his own statements and avoid having to explain or present any evidence for them. How long are you going to keep digging yourself into a hole?
Yeah, i kno its kinda embarrassing for you, bcoz i remember telling you that eventually it will be our defence which will make us lose our championship, which you were clearly very ignorant about. So i kno you wont dig up on those issues ever again. Also i know you wont ever open your mouth again on comparing Djourou and Koscielny with Ferdinand and Vidic. I still cant believe you actually did that….
But apart from that, you simply are too ignorant, as usual, to the sentiments of the fan in this case.
Yes I do feel embarrassed, I feel that way when I read practically any of your comments from recent weeks.
The thoughts you express here have become increasingly illogical, and you must have noticed that fewer people than ever are willing to debate with you. The few that still do are met with your practiced act of obfuscation, the one you’re trying to engage me on *right now* with false statements about me that took place many months ago to avoid the subject originally being discussed. You’re in danger of becoming, if you haven’t become already, perceived as a troll and a contrarian on this site.
Let me put the question raised by this article in a very simple way-
Is it beneficial that you raise your voice against the wrong doing committed to something that you passionately love or support??
Simple answer is yes, atleast on my side. Dont know how many people here will keep quiet under such circumstances, but majority of fans will raise their voices against the wrong doings. And if some people here feel its a selfish act, then unfortunately they really dont understand the situation. But majority of the fans are not blind or ignorant.
DP, in my article I talked about BOOING OUR PLAYERS!!!!
If the fans have a problem with the board they can voice their concern, they can boo the board all they want. But I just aks not to boo the players and certainly not boo the players based on what the gutter press has been talking about in the summer.
Walter- ok, so we should jus ignore the comments made by people like Denilson or Bendtner??
Plus when the crowd boos the team, its more or less directed towards our board to whom they want to express that the current players are no good.
Dark Prince, And so it will help the players on the pitch during the game?
And what are the terrible things Denilson and Bendtner have been saying? Saying that they want to go to another team because they feel they need more games? I really cannot see that this is a reason to boo someone. Not even if they still would be here next season. As long as they do their best when on the pitch. And I really think that by booing them from the moment their name get mentioned will not help them to perform.
If they would say things like: Arsenal is sh$t, the fans are rubbish, the teammates are useless, …. okay that would be something completely different. But then again if they would say such things I don’t think they will be in the team next season anyway.
Walter
I recommend not banging your head against a brick wall 🙂
@Walter
I remember you linking to an article quoting an Argentinian referee saying, among other things, that River Plate’s troubles were because they could not fulfill their promises to the referees. Well, River Plate have just been relegated for the first time in their 110 year history. The article mentions poor refereeing only once, but what do you think?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-13922463
Shard,
If I link the words of that ref from a few weeks back and link this with the lines: “And it added that “even the poor refereeing… and the management errors” that had helped bring the club to this point did not justify the incidents at the end of the game.”
So it is clear that there has been a lot of controversial ref decisions going on.
This shows that if the refs decide to blow against you you can be in real trouble.
I think this shows that :
a) there is clearly a problem with the refs in Argentina
b) there is clearly a problem with clubs bribing refs in Argentina
c) When the refs are out to get you, you are in big trouble
d) and that once you have fallen out of their grace even the record champion can get relegated.
Walter- first of all i’ve already said b4, that booing players wont help the player in question during the match. I’ve stated it in this debate many times.
But i’m trying to get the attention to the benefits in the long run. If a player is not let known by the fans, then he will never realise and may never improve ever. And not only the players but the board too realises that the player in question will have to perform better or will have to leave. Thats how the views of the fans go first hand directly to the players and the board.
Let me give you an example of Eboue. When he was playing pathetically during the match, the fans booed and he was substituted. Now if the fans hadn’t booed, as you claim then Eboue would have not been substituted and would have performed pathetically the rest of the match as well. So keeping quiet will only keep the things as they are. But when the fans booed, Wenger realised that the team’s performance would be affected more with Eboue’s bad performances and hence Wenger can take the right decision.
Plus your statement – ‘Arsenal is sh$t, the fans are rubbish, the teammates are useless, …. okay that would be something completely different. But then again if they would say such things I don’t think they will be in the team next season’
Tell me did even Ashley Cole or Adebayor say such things?? Do u still cheer for them?? Do you think Arsenal fans will welcome them back to the team??
Its not about saying rubbish about a team, its about showing your disloyalty towards a team that made you who you are. Bendtner would never have been bendtner if it wasn’t for Wenger and Arsenal. Same goes for Denilson. And making the player as well as the board know how the fans feel about the players is beneficial for all the parties involved.
Either the player will realise his mistake and mak up for it by performing better or they will be sold out by the club soon. Either ways its beneficial for the club.
@Walter
Exactly my thought. Normally nobody would mention poor refereeing. By itself, it can be brushed off maybe. But aligned with that ref saying the things he did, I think it does show something.
However, we should also consider that Argentina has a weighted average system for relegation. It takes the point totals over the past 3 seasons and divides it by the number of games played. The standings in that table determine which clubs are relegated. I don’t know how River Plate have performed the past 3 years. They finished 6th in the conventional table this year though.