By Tony Attwood
Manchester City added another honour to their trophy cabinet last night by securing the most expensive shot in the history of football. Their squad last night cost (including this season’s salaries) something in the region of £200m, and managed one shot on target – an all time record.
Some of the squad – including Samir Nasri – seemed more like trophies rather than expensively secured players, getting the odd game in the Little Cup and not much else. But overall £145,000,000 is nothing compared to the cost of the whole squad.
A year ago the Daily Telegraph calculated the cost of the total squad at £816,000,000 including salaries, and that price has risen considerably since then – it might even be closer to £1,000,000,000, which I believe is what the Americans call a billion.
Anyway, it all removes reality from football, which I suppose is itself a removal from reality, and that’s why I go.
But we did learn some nice things last night apart from the fact that we could get six shots on target to the record holders’ one.
- Lukasz Fabianski has not lost his form by sitting on the bench. A year ago the AAA were screaming to buy someone (it seemed like almost anyone) because we had no keepers. Now we know we have two quality players, and that could be three, only I haven’t seen Mannone play this season.
- Laurent Koscielny is fast becoming an utterly masterful player. At £8m I would say that he is a staggering bargain
- Ignasi Miquel continues his development, and is looking as if he will become a class defender. He is only 20, and I would not be surprised to see a regular role in the first team squad from next season and one of our three main choice central defenders the year after that.
- Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain is stunningly exciting. I wonder if it would be possible to play Theo and Alex in the same team?
- Francis Coquelin is developing as a good defender – I really hope he doesn’t get fed up with the lack of games and ask for a transfer after all this time being developed with the club.
- Emmanuel Frimpong is not the hot headed kid of the start of the season but a quality mature defender.
So congratulations to Manchester City on another record to add to a growing list, including being the only club to have had their stadium paid for by the state, and the club that holds the record for the highest loss in the history of football – £195,000,000. I expect they will have many more such records in the coming months and years.
First?!?!
@elkieno
Yes. Until City decide they want to buy that spot too 🙂
Yeah I was first! First time ever.
I visit many Arsensl forums but this one is by far The best one. Even after today’s loss you still cheer me up. Many others will bang on about something negative but u don’t and for that I love Untold Arsenal…
Being from Australia I had to settle for live updates on arseblog. It looked like we were really good value despite ppl saying we will get humped. All that money and we almost beat them with our kids. I rekon pool will win this cup btw…
Anyway 1 comp less to tire our players out, onward and upward!!
Arsenal by far the greatest team, the world had ever seen…
@shard: but I won’t sell it no matter what!!! I prefer quality over quantity!
Unlike some mercenaries we once knew…
For me, coquelin is the most promising fringe player we have at the moment. I think he could be as good as flamini was for us the season before he left, and imo should be given more playing time in the PL this season.
@elkieno
Good for you 🙂
@davi
I agree. Coquelin has played at ManU, Spurs, and in the cup. He’s looked composed and confident at all times. He’s defended well, made important tackles, and even played the odd through ball. I think he’s a massive talent. That said, Miquel has done well too. I was hoping we’d see Benik Afobe this year but the injury bug got him. If you consider the likes of Frimpong, Ozyakup, Yennaris, Watt, Miyaichi, Lansbury, Bartley, Aneke, Afobe etc we have a wealth of talent coming through. Who knows which of them will shine the brightest? (Cue:Arsene Knows) But at the moment, Coquelin has really impressed.
We need one striker to complete our squad,and looking at the list of players you have all named shows why………we have a great group of kids coming through.
Incidentally,I have nod read one solitary negative comment on Squillaci today…….very interesting.
@Scott
Here’s one. He really should have been running in to try and win the header from which Chamakh almost scored. Instead he just stood there. The ball was right there for him to put into an empty net. But…not to be.
Got to agree with the comments on ‘Untold’, great blog.
I thought we were good last night really – it’s a shame to lose at home and to be knocked out of the cup, which was providing opportunities for some genuine squad rotation with chances for our young talent like Chamberlin and Coquellin, but we saw very encouraging signs all over the pitch. I think Frimpong, Coquellin and Chamberlin are all ready to make the jump to regular first team play and feel confident they can provide cover for any injured regular first teamers. Chamberlin is very exciting, he already appears to have more to his game than Theo, though he’s more naive and less developed.
I’ve got nothing against Chamakh but personally I’d be happy if we sold him and went and splashed some money on a genuinely top tier striker. Also…love a bit of 4-4-2!
@Tony:
This is just great. I still haven’t stopped laughing after reading the first paragraph, so thank you for that. 🙂
Yes-you are probably right- the most expensive goal and win- and I agree with you that some of the youngsters look to have potential- although as ever your analysis is selective- while some youngsters performed very well other experienced players didn’t. BUT much as I hate everything they and the cretins in the media who support them stand for, having a shot at City for excessive spending seems somewhat hypocritical when Arsene and the Board are amongst the biggest beneficiaries of City’s excessive spending. Have City not baled this club out to the tune of 70m+GBP- deals what you were calling good business in the past.
Swiss Ramble has shown how important transfer fees are to the current Arsenal finances.
Money that is paying the salaries of players like RVP.
Arsenal cannot and do not attempt to compete financially with ManCity- so losing is no surprise-we cannot pay their transfer fees or their salaries-and in the long term I suspect we had better get used to this feeling when ever we play them.
Incidentally, elkieno we were live on Foxtel in Aus today.
@Tony
Possibilities of Walcott and the Ox playing together when Gervinho goes to ACN. Chamberlain looks to me like he could play on the right or left as he tends to cut inside anyway. That would be a terrifying prospect for any opponent.
I only managed to catch the 2nd half and I was completely shocked. Just play this alongside the recent Arsenal performance at Old Traf and you’ll see a miracle in the making.
I think Chamberlain is catching up exceedingly fast. There’s a likelihood of him becoming the fringe for the latter part of the season (so long as he stays fit and avoids injuries). Benayoun was masterful, he and Frimpong grabbed so many balls in the midfield and kept them even under serious threat. I loved that bit of corrida Frimpong had there on Aguero. Incidentally, I think the Argentine should have been given a yellow for the way he treated Koscielny (he’d have gotten a straight red if it was the CL).
Squillaci may have played one of his better games yesterday, at least he avoided making the mistakes he’s made us get used to. But Koscielny was something else. A performance on a par with Chamberlain’s, if you ask me.
The 4-4-2 was, to a rather large extent, faked. Chamakh and Park often traded places, so that either of them could be found running down the left wing. But evidently, it was the right side that worked better, with Chamberlain, Benayoun and Djourou. Chamakh is definitely on his way out – or perhaps Park is on his way in?
I read a report from the game in a paper in my country and I was flabbergasted. Despite City managing only one shot on goal (to Arsenal’s – what? – 6?!), the author claimed that City had full control of the game all the time. Seems we have anti-Arsenal journalist all over the place, not only in the UK.
Anyway, the yesterday’s performance was one of the best of the season, and I’d love to see more of Chamberlain, Benayoun and Frimpong in the starting lineup this season. I believe you can already sense the fear among the Citizen. They’re playing Arsenal in a little more than two weeks. It won’t be an easy game anymore.
I was very satisfied with our performance, liked the look of the kids real class acts.
@goonergerry – I would say that was a chicken and egg scenario… we only pay higher wages/transfers because clubs like Chelsea and Manchester City have push the price artificially high?
So – if they are ‘bailing us out’ I would suggest that they are doing it from a situation that they are in no small part accountable for… but this is just business and has little to do with football. Some would say that this was reflected on the pitch last night in terms of the attitudes of the players – for one lot it was all about the game – the other it was a day at the office.
Unfortunately (for us and possibly ‘the game’) the money team won – but that’s just the way of the world these days… and besides – football is often like that too.
Seems to me we were missing Afobe the most. Come to think of it, even Watt could probably have stuck one of those chances away. Both of those players have a clearer understanding of how and where their midfield colleagues are going to deliver the ball than say, Chamakh.
Park remains a riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped in an Arsenal shirt. He’s clearly a good striker but he hasn’t really clicked when called upon.
1. If Fabianksi had a good game, then you need to formally complain to the BBC. All they showed him doing was his old-style flapping and missing at a cross in the first half. I’m not quite sure how any judgements can be made about a keeper who clearly didn’t have a save to make, but there we are…….since if City only had one shot on target and it went in, Fabianski clearly had no need to make a save…….
2. There’s absolutely no reason why AOC and Theo can’t play together, unless there is a quota of British players limited at 1 or 2 when Jack Wilshere is back. Stick AOC on the left, tell him to do a mirror image of what Adam Johnson does: dart inside and either cross or shoot from there. Or tell Theo to do likewise…..
3. Unless you think Coquelin is ahead of Ramsey, Song, Arteta and Wilshere, he’s going to be limited in game time. No offence, the facts. And that’s assuming you get rid of Diaby and Denilson too.
4. Koscielny and Squillaci: a VC portfolio investment. Win one, lose one. Wilshere and Lansbury from the academy sounds more successful to me, but the on dit is that Lansbury won’t get a fair shot at it at Arsenal. Why I have no idea…….
5. Miquel will compete with Kyle Bartley for slots 5 and 6 next season, injuries notwithstanding. He would do well to go out on loan somewhere now as he needs regular matches to become sharp and he won’t get them this season at Arsenal bar injuries. No offence, the facts.
6. Benayoun should be playing more. Why he isn’t I don’t know. Olympiakos?
Great blog. Couldn’t watch the game in Nigeria because the cable tv company that had the rights to beam the carling cup games is in receivership. From the comments that I read the positives are that youngsters like the Ox, Coquelin and Frimpong can come in to bail our club out during the hectic schedule of December – January. We missed Gervinho’s pace in the game against Fulham and we all saw the difference he made when he came on. He’s off to the African Nations Cup in January 2012. So who comes in? Arshavin? Hell No! I say Wenger should slot the Ox in there and he should fit. RVP will burn out like Wishere if he plays too many games. We need an out and out goal poacher who will convert half a chance. For me, another lethal striker is a geater need for Arsenal more than a midfielder right now. But what do I know. Go gooners!!!
I’m off this site right now!
We just LOST a match and not a single post bemoaning the LOSS!!
Call me back when the serious moaners return.
Seriously though, something is happening to Arsenal fandom this season: even in a loss, a tour up and down Arsenal blogs show we are learning to keep it real and keep the focus. AAA is dying all around or fear to unsheathe the sword? What happened guys and gals?
After watching Chamakh for the past 2 years, I have come to the realization that AW needs a reliable striker to complement RvP. That might be the only position lacking in this squad. I know we have Campbell coming soon(have kept tabs on him in ligue 1).
The mf and defence have many promising players coming through in the next years. I wonder what a loan deal will do for their development at this point. AW has painstakingly put together a good squad.
If guys like Lansbury are not getting a chance, it must be something that Wenger knows, having been with them more than the internet managers. The club needs to free up money from the Bendtner, Denilson(a bust even in Brasil) and Almunia contracts-as the money can be applied elsewhere.
Shakabula, you are right about the shrivelling AAA
As for Untold Arsenal,
At a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act…..George Orwell
I personally really liked the look of Bartley. He looked impressive and importantly he looked strong to hold enough off the ball
@ Goonergerry, I was looking for your predictable negative comments yesterday straight after the loss, what happened? From your post I get the feeling that you believe that Arsenal fans should have been left feeling inferior to the Manc chavs based on that game yesterday? I of course disagree with you. I thought that Man C were a bit embarrassing actually as their expensive, highly rated and experienced professionals played nervous long ball football and were not able to assert themselves over an inexperienced, teenage midfield and other
assembled ‘cheap imports’.
As a return on investment I thought Man C were very poor actually, as Tony has alluded to in the above post. I have read elsewhere today that Man C were ‘sublime’ but I am with Arsene Wenger on this one, as I thought that Man C were in fact fortunate and we could of won that game. Our players are talented and I believe that we achieved psychological win, as they will of seen how tough it was to break down our ‘fringe’ players, it will be even tougher to do the same against our other ones. I will be watching with interest as moaning Mancini struggles ineptly to rotate his very capable squad he has assembled over the busy months that are coming up.
You are right that we cannot compete financially with Man C, but far from being hypocritical (for that you would need to speak to Chelsea fans who cannot see how silly they seem complaining about Man C), Tony and Arsenal fans like myself are making ‘lemonade out of lemons’. I have to say the more you talk about the business of sport and Arsenal in particular, the less I am convinced of your insights. You use language
like ‘they bailed us out’, which means that you seemed to of purposely ignored or simply don’t understand that Arsenal undertook an ambitious, forward thinking and inspirational self sustaining project which involved managed risk and calculated structured debt.
Not all debt is bad, especially when the money is used for development and expansion. It is also true to say that Man C have assisted Arsenal’s long term future, albeit in an unexpected manner and I see it as short term pain for long term gain. We are being enabled by them to pay off our large debts at a quicker than anticipated rate. Would I rather they
didn’t tap up our players so that we don’t have to keep rebuilding our squad? Yes of course! You can easily imagine that with a settled squad we would of been much closer to winning silverware than we are now, but such is life and you make lemonade out of life’s lemons. I certainly don’t blame the board for the loss yesterday, that’s for sure.
I would love to see a goal poacher like Afobe playing off Chamakh in vaguely similar way that Michael Owen used to do with Heskey. Vela didn’t have the movement and variation to his game (you can’t always chip the goalie) to do the kind of thing I have seen Afobe do, admittedly against weaker opposition. The only thing is, by the time Afobe regains his form, Chamakh will probably off to the ACN or recovering from it, so I doubt it will be a strike partnership seen anytime soon. Instead of ushering players out the door, or labelling them as rubbish we should be seeing how we can get the best out of what we have got.
I have to agree with Dogface and Gooner Gal about Goonergerry’s comments.
It is the likes of Man City who are inflating prices. Is Torres (even the old scoring Torres) worth 50m? Is Nasri worth 25m in the last year of his contract? Is Aguero worht 48m? Is Dzeko worth 30m… no.
The fact is without the oil money running Man City and Chelsea, the selling clubs would not be able to get that amount for their players. Without them offering obscene wages that they cannot afford with their income, then other players wouldnt hold their current clubs to ransom and therefore increasing salaries all round as other players want parity (or threaten they will leave). If Man City were not run by oil money, would they have offered over 150,000 a week to Nasri? no!
Arsenal never needed Man City’s money… yes, we got a great deal for those players. but then thats because everybody knows they are stupid with their money (aston villa – Milner). But we have plans to be self sustaining, we make most of our income from selling tickets at the emirates. and you cannot say we planned for man city to pay huge amounts for our players because we built the emirates before the shiehks were in town! We made more with them being in the market, but we sold very good players, so we would probably have got decent amounts anyway for selling adebayor, toure, clichy and nasri since they were all world class internationals and in demand by other clubs.
And im not just hating on Man City and Chelsea, but they are the most obvious at the moment. I would also put PSG, Anchi Machlavka (the russian club with Etoo), Malaga into this list as well as the clubs such as Barcelona, real madrid, inter milan who are in debt because they buy players they cannot afford.
I think this same squad should just be sent over to Greece for the Champions League match against Olympiacos Piraeus. You can be sure they will get a result. The future is indeed looking brighter than they would want us to believe. One thing that we’ll be getting to see in the next couple of seasons or thereabout is the reenactment of the midfield trio of Wiltshire-Frimpong-Coquelin that won the Youth League/Cup double a few seasons ago. It seems they can’t wait to step up.
Yommex and just think of adding Ramsey to that midfield…
@mandy dodd, shakabula:
Interesting about the AAA. What do you think about the Arsenal media coverage generally? To me, it seems to have changed so much, and so suddenly, that my first thought was that maybe I had entered the twilight zone? Does it seem strange to anyone else?
Dogface-Of course City have upped the stakes- that is the only way that second rate club can compete.We have got one of the richest men in the world as a major shareholder- and the club chooses not to invite him onto the Board. We cannot afford ManCity salaries because of a decision made by our Board- no other reason- Man Utd and Liverpool pay very high salaries too to certain players- not just Chelsea and City. Check out what Rooney is on. Are we going to match that level to keep RVP? You know the answer to that. Do you want to see him go and Wilshere after him as a result? My understanding is that behind the scenes Arsene Wenger believes that as well.
What are you suggesting? That Arsenal should pay its best players 50% less than City’s reserves?
Goonergal typical oppressive comments from anyone who disagrees with the author in any way. Your sycophantic comments have always troubled me. When we lose after playing well why do you think it is so unreasonable to point out that some people didn’t play well? Supporting the club does not mean you are not allowed to express any disappointment ever- maybe it does for you- but not for me.
Perhaps you should check out the managers comments- a manager that this site purports to support. He does not like losing either and described our defending as naive. I agree with that and do not think we should have lost the game- but in the end for all of our potential their quality prevailed.
@goonergerry – yes, if push comes to shove we should sell on players that will put the club into debt with their wage demands – if that is 50% less that Manchester City’s reserves then that’s the way it is – obviously the money clubs can only have so many players on their bench so let the ones who are motivated by money (if that means sitting on the bench) go and do just that, we (as you rightly point out) can cash in on a massively inflated transfer fee with regards to their actual value… it would make sense that if the club in question [who were willing to offer them double their current salary] would have enough to throw it about on a overpriced offer in the first place – how this money is re-invested is another argument entirely… as is the current wage structure.
I find it unrealistic to ask any shareholder of Arsenal to invest large amounts of money into the club for a short term return on the pitch – and even then, can anyone really compete with the likes of Mancheter City? Stan is a money man and I can see that he is looking to market the club in the long term to get a return on his investment in share value rather than buy the club and put it into debt in the short term for a return in interest and final payment – which would, in my view, put the long term future of the club in the hands of the highest bidder (whoever they may be at the time). The other ‘richest man in the world’ as a shareholder is Usmanov – and, personally, if I were a board member – I wouldn’t be inviting him on any time soon either.
I’m interested – what do you suggest as a sucessful financial model for Arsenal? A high-interest loan from Usmanov with the club as security on the debt? Good luck getting board and the other shareholders to agree on that one.
@Anne
Yes there has been a change in the media coverage. Even the Evening Standard is writing fairly good articles on Arsenal (even after a defeat) – http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-sport/football/article-24016032-arsenal-may-be-out-but-theyre-far-from-down.do – which is a massive change from a couple of weeks ago.
@goonergerry: One can repeat ad nauseam that Man City are shaping the game right now with their petrodollars. Yes, it’s true. The fact that Arsenal do not operate according to the same logic does not mean that they don’t operate according to any logic at all. Spending little on less-known players with an eye to developing them into first-class assets is actually smart; you can make a lot of mistakes along the way, and it still pays (are Arsenal’s debts manageable? Would Man City’s be if the sheikhs just up and left?). And it definitely does because there are morons out there like City (or PSG?) who are likely to spend big on untested talent. Arsenal have never been a football moloch – I recently looked through the transfer data going as far back as the early 1990s and they made top of the list – how many times? – once or twice. This has given them (and us) a number of trophies, a lot of success, joy, and also a lot of sorrow and pain. I wouldn’t give that sorrow and pain back for a thousand of easy victories. Arsenal operates according to this logic: it doesn’t go the easy way. And that’s why I support them.
The game showed that the most recent acquisitions of our dear Arsenal FC are lightyears ahead of the money boys from City. True, they lost the game; true, they lack experience; but what’s also true is that they still have time to develop, while most of the Man City squad from Tuesday will not. It was sensible for Man City to buy Dzeko and Aguero, two explosive young talents who can win you just about any game. And they will win some, as they already did several times. But the cost of that is just ridiculous, and the risk is too high for a team like Arsenal, dedicated to developing new talent.
Also, a note: many years ago, there were a few teams from Holland that got to play for the biggest club trophies in the world. Ajax, PSV, Feyenoord – do those names ring a bell? Do you remember what these teams were most famous for? They often played young, untested talent (sometimes bought on the cheap) in top-flight games. That’s where you got Kluivert, Ronaldo, or even RVP. They were 18 or 19 when they faced ManU, Barcelona, Bayern, etc. True, they had their ups and downs, in recent years they rarely even won their own league. But look at PSV now and tell me that they would have been better off spending hundreds of millions on ready-made star players.
@Rhys Jaggar: A keeper doesn’t need to stop 20 shots to have a good game. I didn’t see the error to which you refer, I heard he made it, and that definitely goes against him. But his performance in the 2nd half was very good.
I’m seriously wondering if Coquelin and Bartley really have a chance at Arsenal. Frankly, I think they’ll leave at the end of this season. Miquel is likely to stay; I think he’ll replace Squillaci.
The problem with playing Chamberlain and Walcott at the same time is that they both seem to do better on the right flank. If it’s possible to have them trade places on both flanks, and it works, then ok, I agree. Another reason why I doubt it will go that way is because I’m betting on Walcott leaving Arsenal after this season. I think there is some frustration on his side with the way he’s used at the club; plus, there are a number of possible replacements. For the time being, the Chamberlain-plus-Walcott option remains at the top of my Christmas list.
@ goonergerry
Oh do behave and stop being so facetious. I think you are more troubled that your clearly weak agenda and points about Jabba the Hun are challenged by me and you are found wanting in your rebuttal arguments. If you are the R&W holding propaganda PR machine then you get a 2/10 for effort.
I am certainly not Tony’s enforcer (or anyone else’s) on this site. Using emotive language like ‘oppressive’ sounds like you are in fact unable cope with discussion or debate which challenges your statements. If you say something (usually negative), you should be prepared to explain your turgid comments. Regularly repeating your undeveloped ideas with little respect for reality could also be considered troubling.
If you say a lie 100 times, it is still a lie but I am sure if you diligently cut and paste your views elsewhere in the blogosphere, it would be unchallenged and could become perceived wisdom to some. And I don’t doubt that someone might come on this site in a few months time and say something everyone knows Jabba the Hun would of won every trophy going had he been in charge’. However on this site though there is a small pocket of resistance that needs a bit more convincing to don a black scarf other than for fashion.
Also it is totally puerile of you to try and imply that I was happy that we lost the game or am happy in general when we don’t do well. Neither I or Tony in the above post have said that. Also trying to use and link Arsene Wenger’s post match statements to your own more deeply entrenched negative point of view about the club, board and team is also troubling as it seems like a desperate attempt of a man who is simply unable to cope with the highs and lows of football.
talking about spending compared to these clubs is no use. We have rich owners, but they are not going to encourage us to spend over our income on players and salaries cos ultimately its stupid especially from a financial point of view – just ask Leeds and Portsmouth.
What is the point of having a huge loss every season just for a short term gain? Whilst i understand for some fans, they want the short term glory, but id much rather our club was consistently succesful over a century (succesful doesnt mean just winning trophies – successful also means doing well in the league and getting to the final stages of tournaments) than win a few trophies in a decade and then go bankrupt the next.
If you look at Chelsea, its not a sustainable model. They are making a huge loss even though Abramovich has been there nearly 10 years. Once he loses interest and decides to sell, or dies and the club goes to his wife or children, do you think they will continue to fitter away his fortune on a loss making club?
whilst man city may last longer due to it being run by a prince and backed by his country… qatari oil wont last forever, and there is no gurantee that the rest of the royal family share his passion for man city.
If there is a popular uprising in the UAE, do people honestly think that the incoming republic is going to pay the wages at Man City or instead spend the money on social services and welfare?
I’m not saying that it will happen but formerly I would have classed Bahrain as a relaxed and tolerant Muslim country (at least compared to Saudi Arabia) and look what’s happening there.
Found wanting -hah ha- nice one! Rebuttal arguments my arse. Goonergal your comments were from the outset personally directed and it seems that in your attempts to discredit and insult –
as far as I can see you haven’t answered any points I have made- especially that it is hypocritical to slag City off for excessive spending when this club has profited by 70m+ by selling 4 top players to them. No one made the club sell 4 players to them- we could have sold them elsewhere- but we didn’t because we would have got less money for them.
As a point of clarification, I am not trying to advocate the City model with Usmanov as chairman at all- but having your second largest shareholder and a very wealthy investor excluded from the Board is demonstrably not making best use of the financial assets available to the club. What is clearly in Kroenke’s interests is not necessarily in the club’s interests.
Kroenke might not be planning to take a lot of money out of the club- but he is not putting any in either.
Having to sell your best players each year in order to stay in the market is not a preferable strategy to me
Zdis- Arsenal’s current wages structure is in danger of turning the club into a nursery- a finishing school for wealthier clubs. It is only smart if you are able to keep the players you nurture and we have to pay them more when they mature- other wise the commercial objectives of the club will simply fail to materialise as we disappear from contention for major competitions.
When you look at our strike force it is crying out for some further investment- and first rate strikers will require first rate salaries.
Sustainability- yes-but with greater flexibility and a higher top end wage ceiling.
@ goonergerry….hmmmmm I no longer have a clue what your point is any more. Not sure it’s worth asking you to elaborate either though!