Ref Review 2012/13: Arsenal. If you think football in England is not biased, best not to read this.

82 Replies to “Ref Review 2012/13: Arsenal. If you think football in England is not biased, best not to read this.”

1. Have we stopped doing reviews this season Walter? 11 games in and not one review.

   As far as last season is concerned, I’d still like to see figures distinguishing decisions made that were wrong

   compared with:

   decisions not made that were held to be wrong by our panel of our reviewers.

2. Interesting watching the England match yesterday. Andros Townsend was forever running into blind alleys and Sturridge the same. Remember how Walcott was accused of having no footballing brain, just pace, despite getting more goals and more assists than those two. Makes you think , eh?

3. Out of context but oh now west brom get an apology!!

   http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11698/9032639/referees-chief-mike-riley-apologises-to-west-brom-over-chelsea-penalty

4. Walter,

   It doesn’t matter how you analyse the figures, and you and I do take different viewpoints in trying to show things as they are, the end results are shocking and, in my opinion, clearly demonstrate anomalies so far removed from statistical chance as to remove all doubt that the refereeing in the premiership is not done evenly.

5. That’s a very interesting responce from Mike Riley re; West Brom apology. I’m sure Steve Clarke & his side feel a whole lot better.

   The apology could have come within a few days of the incident. It was obviosly a wrong decision to award Chelsea the penalty against WBA, so why has Riley waited nearly two weeks to admit so? With the Premier League about to resume, perhaps he was more concerned with the timing of his apology rather than it’s sincerity.

   Wonder if we’ll start seeing more apologies being made regarding other instances?

6. Walter, this series has been most revealing.

   When every referee has a clearly demonstrated bias against Arsenal it is most unlikely that such a bias is the result of coincidence or incompetence, it can only result from instruction. Such instruction can only come from, or with the approval of, the person directing the refs. Riley – it is time for you to explain these figures!

   Va Cong above rightly pointed out that Riley has had to apologize to West Brom for a blunder over the Chelsea penalty.

   Well Riley, that’s a start, how about an apology for the Rooney dive/penalty in the Invincibles match, how about an apology for whatever instruction has been given to the refs named in the tables above?

   Given the bias outlined above and given that many of the refs have allowed thug teams to injure our players (an apology here from Riley would be timely), the team and manager have achieved a lot. Some of the sewer rat whingers who take pleasure in sniping at the club would make better use of their energy by directing their fire at the source of the problem – Riley. By not doing so the sewer rat whingers are demonstrating that their true allegiance is not to Arsenal.

7. I was having a bad day as it was but it just got worse after reading this. This isn’t acceptable. Is it any wonder a club that swept all before them has gone 8 years without ‘winning’ anything. How we managed to stay in the top four with such a negative bias is a miracle. Riley comes out saying diving incidents have fallen down, and who does he credit? Ferguson, Moyes, & his refs. He clearly is a united man. If it wasn’t so infuriating I would say that was the funniest joke of the century.

8. What is this about WBA complaining about something in the Arsenal match. It’s late and I can’t think clearly, but my impression of the Arsenal-WBA game was that it although WBA were tough opponents, the refereeing was Taylor-esque, but less blatant. I’ve seen it said that Arsenal should have had a penalty in that game, but don’t remember that incident clearly. WBA did have cause for complaint against Stoke and Chelsea though, and rupert keeps bringing them up as an example of ref bias (implying that Arsenal aren’t)

   Anyway. Riley has apologised before to certain clubs, but never to Arsenal. You would think with all the ‘mistakes’ that we’ve seen over the years, he had enough opportunity to do so.

   I see no reason to doubt that there’s something fishy in the PL. It’s just too….opaque and arbitrary, with too much money, for it to be above board.

9. Seems like the media and refs have it in for us, some person, persons, or most likely a collection of seperate causes, maybe some even quite near to the club would rather we did not succeed. Maybe in years gone by we have not succeeded for reasons not always to do with the refs, though they clearly have not helped. Interested to see how …..or…if things change now we have, and can buy some top players, as opposed to maybe developing them a few years back. We still have promising youngsters, but also some very talented, experienced, astute and streetwise players. Such players may make it much harder for and expose dodgy refs to much more scrutiny than teams we have sent out in the past. Someone like arteta captained another epl team maybe even under moyes with orders to rough up arsenal a bit , he will know what goes on,so will Flamini, and now, the likes of Per, and others. Not saying another Taylor will not happen because we know it will, but as this team goes, will the refs risk of exposure increased compared to dealing with the callow foreign youth of the past? Players like diaby, Gervinho, even Paddy V fell right into traps set for them in the past, we have players who can help prevent this now

10. These figures are absolutely horrific, Walter.

    No matter how many times we see the evidence, it never ceases to be shocking.

    Yes, if Riley has now started apologizing, it’s time he apologized to us. He’s a good few years behind with his apologies on that front.

11. Forgot to add, regarding our most streetwise, flam and arteta, neither played when ref Taylor beat us in the first game.
    As for apologies, think wenger got an apology of sorts when sent to the old traff stands for kicking a bottle? Not sure it was from Manc Riley though. But even if so, wenger deserves a lot more apologies from the PGMOL, and for that matter, the ECL refs than that mere gesture

12. Here’s another one for fans of Riley, whose parentage is uncertain:

    written on Child Support Agency Forms in the section for listing ‘Father’s Details,’ or putting it another way…

    Who’s your baby’s Daddy?

    These are genuine excerpts from the forms. Be sure to check out #11, it takes 1st prize and #3 is runner up.

    1. Regarding the identity of the father of my twins, Makeeshia was fathered by Maclearndon McKinley I am unsure as to the identity of the father of Marlinda, but I believe that she was conceived on the same night.

    2. I am unsure, as to the identity of the father of my child as I was being sick out of a window when taken unexpectedly from behind. I can provide you with a list of names of men that I think were at the party if this helps.

    3. I do not know the name of the father of my little girl. She was conceived at a party at 3600 East Grand Boulevard where I had sex with a man I met that night. I do remember that the sex was so good that I fainted. If you do manage to track down the father, can you please send me his phone number? Thanks… (The runner-up).

    4. I don’t know the identity of the father of my daughter. He drives a BMW that now has a hole made by my stiletto in one of the door panels. Perhaps you can contact BMW service stations in this area and see if he’s had it replaced.

    5. I have never had sex with a man. I am still a Virginian. I am awaiting a letter from the Pope confirming that my son’s conception was ejaculate and that he is the Saver risen again.

    6. I cannot tell you the name of Alleshia’s dad as he informs me that to do so would blow his cover and that would have cataclysmic implications for the economy I am torn between doing right by you and right by the country. Please advise.

    7. I do not know who the father of my child was as they all look the same to me.

    8. Tyrone Hairston is the father of child A. If you do catch up with him, can you axe him what he did with my AC/DC CDs? Child B who was also borned at the same time….. well, I don’t have clue..

    9. From the dates it seems that my daughter was conceived at Disney World. Maybe it really is the Magic Kingdom .

    10. So much about that night is a blur. The only thing that I remember for sure is Delia Smith did a program about eggs earlier in the evening. If I had stayed in and watched more TV rather than going to the party at 8956 Miller Ave , mine might have remained unfertilized.

    11. I am unsure as to the identity of the father of my baby, after all, like when you eat a can of beans you can’t be sure which one gave you gas. (This made number #1).

13. Mandy

    I think that apology happened under Keith Hackett’s watch, not Riley’s. There’s also a huge difference in apologising for wrongly sending a manager into a crowd singing that pedophile song (not that they mentioned that), and an apology for a wrong penalty decision. Which is something you know of course. Gaaahhh It’s just so frustrating.

    Chelsea appear to be the team getting most ‘lucky’ this season. Which doesn’t come as a surprise to me. Jose Mourinho is the ideal Ferguson successor in a sense. And not assisting ManU under Moyes helps consolidate Ferguson’s ‘genius’.

14. Shard

    Good point. Not assisting Moyes helps strengthen the myths.
    I could not agree more with you on that.

15. Hmmmmm apology, what if Westbrom gets relegated by 2 points will mike ass riley prick do anything about it,will he stand in front of the Westbrom fans and tell them that to their face how sorry he is??
    I hate that ass with a passion.

16. Thanks for this work. The results don’t shock me because this kind of reffing has gone on for so many years against Arsenal. It’s somehow useful for me to see that the bias I see – week after week – is not a figment of my imagination.

    I do hope you’re able to carry on this amazing work. I especially look forward to this great body of work receiving the recognition it deserves. I dream of the people responsible for corrupting our game are fully exposed and dealt with, and that football and reffing in the Prem carries integrity.

    Very well done Walter and the other ref reviewers. Thanks.

17. From Arsenal.com: “Arsenal won 36 of those matches, drew 13 and scored 112 goals. The run was brought to an end with a controversial 2-0 defeat to Manchester United at Old Trafford on October 24, 2004.”

    Speaking about apologies…did Riley ever formally apologise for that?

18. Interestingly Debatable Decisions site has us finishing fourth behind Spurs the season before last. I wonder if Walter’s research tallies with that. All these findings are based on personal opinion as we’ve seen even with posters on here. For example when Walter declared a foul by Arteta on Chamakh in the Palace match some on here thought his call wrong. Strange then that they can’t accept that some of his pro Arsenal calls can’t be wrong too. Or is objectivity a rare commodity on this site?

    Can we have a similar report on every team in the PL please otherwise this study is rendered ineffective other to show that refs aren’t very good. Hardly revelatory to those who have been watching football for 40 years.

    Arguing that we’d have won more because we’ve had decisions go against us is too simplistic. It assumes that if those decisions had been reversed the outcome would have benefited Arsenal. This is unprovable. You might argue I’m supporting a false reality but then those that disagree are too. They can’t prove that the alternative reality they pursue would have been profitable for Arsenal.

    There’s very few times in a game where an incorrect decision is absolutely conclusive. The penalty awarded Chelsea against WBA is one example as it was virtually the last action in that game.

    Ignore it if you like but the overwhelming reason we’ve won zilch for years is because we’ve had inferior squad to Chelsea for nigh on ten years, City for about three years and Manu for over ten years plus the latter have had a superior manager.

    Regarding that these are the tactics used by Ferguson to beat Arsenal.In his book, Ferguson also reveals a moment of realisation about all this.

    “We didn’t need to win the ball against Arsenal, we needed to intercept it. You need good payers who can intercept. We worked out that when the ball was played into [Cesc] Fabregas with his back to goal, he would turn round the corner and meet the return pass… so we would say to our players: ‘Stay with the runner, then intercept the pass.’ Then we counter-attacked quickly.”

19. And this too.

    “In later years, we learned more about Arsene’s thinking. Arsene had a template of how he sees his players and the way they play.”

    In response, Ferguson clearly developed a template of how to play a Wenger team: sit deep, hit hard, break fast. The pattern was repeated in all manner of games, from the devastating 2008-09 Champions League semifinal victory to a 2011 fifth-round FA Cup tie in which Ferguson fielded seven defenders but still won 2-0

20. Rupert,

    You can brag about it as long as you want, but I will not believe for one moment that SAF is a superior manager to Arsene Wenger.

21. @Florian, I guess all those trophies and the innumerable times Ferguson outwitted Wenger count for nothing. Don’t be a clown and face up to reality. And by the way I detest Ferguson but I can see he’s a superior manager, much as it pains me to admit it.

22. The rupert really has become one of the most obnoxious AAA sewer rats around. The answer to his rants is in the data presented above, yet he ignores that data (perhaps he cannot understand it, or probably it does not suit his anti Arsenal point of view) and instead quotes regurgitated views from an alternate site. It reminds me of a propagandist trying to rewrite history.

    The rupert’s theme that another manager has out witted Wenger is bollocks. Red Nose used his unique relationship with Riley to his advantage to cheat his way to the top. Oh….am I forgetting that cheating is OK for sewer rats?

    As usual when the rupert has a rant at Wenger he forgets the amount of unclean money poured into first Chelski, the MC and the dirty tactics of MU.

    You are the despicable clown rupert, you are a really nasty biased backstabber with a deep seated hated of our magnificent club – but are you Stewart Robson – or does he just share your nest?

23. Rupert Cook,

    I have made comparisons between debatable decisions and the untold reviews in the past. I even wrote a few articles about it.

    What they did (as it seems they have stopped somewhere last season) was a good try and has its worth.

    Where we differ from each other is:

    1. DD(Debatable Decisions) only work with the highlights of MOTD. And so we know (hope you to) that they leave some things out (good example: blatant penalty foul on Wilshere at WBA was not shown on MOTD). So that makes their data already not complete.

    UNTOLD: only did complete games. So our data is superior to theirs.

    2. DD: they had a panel of football supporters. They made it public which team they supported. But non of their panel members where refs. So it was people like you and most who judged about the rules.

    UNTOLD: we only worked with referees. Who know the rules. And who know how the rules should be applied. So I think I can say that our findings are of a higher quality than theirs.

    3. DD: their panel not just used the rules to make up their minds. I have seen them give an offside goal as a valid goal because ‘it was difficult to see for the assistant-referee’. This is the making up excuses way of doing it.

    UNTOLD: Difficult to see is not an excuse for a wrong decision. If the line on the TV showed it was offside then the player is offside and the goal should have been cancelled. A decision is right or wrong. A player was onside or was offside. Difficult to see might explain why a decision was wrong but may not be used to declare a wrong decision as correct.

    So despite them doing a good job in a way, I do think and that could sound pretentious that what we did with the Untold Referee Reviews was of a higher quality and more complete for the games we reviewed. And I did find some disagreements in the games we did (as explained above)

24. @Walter, and do all your refs agree on every decision or are there debates on some decisions, rather like the one on here where some of your ardent fans disagreed with your call on the Arteta foul?

    Also though I agree with your position on difficult to see as not an excuse for wrong decisions it is all very well you sitting there analysing games from a comfortable armchair but this does not allow for being on the field of play where snap decisions are not so cut and dry. How many times do you look at an offside before you decide on a verdict? I’m sure if we had video technology in football things would be a lot easier but you’re implying that every wrong call is a bias against Arsenal when it could be simple error.

    Your points about DD are relevant obviously but again maybe that so-called penalty Wilshire should have got wasn’t so cut and dried as you make it. I didn’t see the incident so I can’t comment.

    And my point still stands that unless you print every team’s refs’ statistics your experiment stands in isolation therefore proving it ineffective, notwithstanding the fact that you cannot prove that each bad decision was actually a game-changer.

    Despite all this contrary proof to your position what you have shown is refereeing standards are poor.

25. Rupert,
    We currently have given numbers on each team from two different angles and if I can find the time I even have a third angle maybe. And each ref from their angle.

    It only becomes bias when you see a pattern of course. After 3 seasons of reviewing the pattern is there. And confirmed by non-Arsenal supporting referees.

    Simple errors? Then why the majority of ‘simple errors’ are most of the time against Arsenal? And what if you see the same refs making the same ‘errors’ all the time against one team only?

    Ref standards are poor. But shouldn’t they equal out then? As this is not the case then there is something more going on besides poor decision making.

    Amazing how you seem to put the DD numbers above ours…

    And once again the good old tactic we have seen before.
    When we did just 38 Arsenal games: not enough, this proves nothing, you should do more.
    When we did +150 games they said: not enough, this proves nothing, you should do more, you should have non-Arsenal supporting refs

    When we did all that and did more +200 games: still not enough.

    But for some reason DD putting spuds in front of us based on their very small sample (much smaller than ours) has more weight than our reviews for you…

26. Considering the rupert’s many perversions I am reminded of the old saying: –

    “There are none so blind as those who will not see!”

27. @Walter, I no longer put DD numbers above yours as I said your point was relevant about them as they only did stuff based on MOTD. As far as I’m concerned it makes very little difference whether it’s you or DD making the case as I pointed out before that your perceived reality if all wrong decisions are reversed is that they immediately benefit us which is utterly ludicrous. But that point you choose to ignore.

    You still have to do the same for every team as you did for Arsenal. What happens if Everton say have worse statistics than us? You’ve found a team that refs hate more.

    And why, do tell as I have yet to hear one sane reason from any of you paranoiacs, would the whole of the reffing establishment have anything against Arsenal? And why, when Arsenal had a brilliant team between 1998-2005, did we not win anything then if all the refs hated us? Or is it just a coincidence that we’ve nosedived from the top of the table and won nothing at exactly the same time as when our squad became rather ordinary.

    The best squads win the league title and the CL. We’ve not had such a squad for some years now. There have been obvious reasons for this as City, Chelsea and to a certain extent Manu have paid exorbitant prices for talent. We have now the finances to do the same so let’s see where we are in three years time.

28. “Nose-dived” from top of the table?

    All the drastic way down to 3rd and 4th!

29. Rupert Cook,
    Your line:
    “it is all very well you sitting there analysing games from a comfortable armchair but this does not allow for being on the field of play where snap decisions are not so cut and dry.”

    This is one that comes up on a regular basis and for some strange reason is often used as an argument in favour of the referees and saying it is OK for mistakes & incorrect decisions. To me this actually highlights the fact that referees are INCAPABLE of keeping up with the modern game and something else is needed. (by incapable, I mean they are only human and not useless although that could be another argument in many cases)

    I can only ever come to video replay technology as a viable option.

30. Rupert,
    One sane reason?
    A head of the PGMOL who was not afraid to make himself an utter fool in the eyes of the rest of the world who loves MU and who doesn’t like Arsenal.
    Couldn’t that be enough for a sane reason?

31. @Rupert

    Am I misunderstanding you?

    You ask for reports like the one above for all the teams.

    But that is exactly what Walter has been providing for the past few weeks. And NONE of them (as far as I can remember) had every single ref with a negative bias.

    Remember that the Arsenal matches – like all the other matches – were analysed by a range of referees who supported a range of teams. In other words they were not all Arsenal supporters.

    The evidence above, based on a time-consuming and detailed analysis of matches by qualified referees, is that ALL the referees were biased against Arsenal.

    There is no way in which this can be bad luck or just coincidence.

    And it is an utter disgrace.

32. @Walter, so one man in charge instructs all the refs to treat Arsenal harshly. And this never comes out. All refs fall in line. Sounds far fetched. Poor refereeing there is but I’ve witnessed more bad decisions against WBA this season than us.

    No offence Walter but we’ve only your word that there are team of refs watching Arsenal games. You’d think people would have something better to do with their time. For all I know it’s just you passing judgement on ref’s performances.

    And you still ignore the fact that your alternative reality where those negative decisions become positive actually ensure results are changed. That’s impossible to know making your argument about us losing games due to refereeing errors/bias completely invalid.

    @Stuart, no it’s not acceptable and I agree video technology is the best option.

33. As I noted above about the rupert: –

    “There are none so blind as those who will not see!”

34. Why should I bother Rupert. Even if it would hit you in the face you still would ignore it.

    And you obviously have no idea about the powers the persons have who are in charge of referees.

    But yet again a quick attempt:

    Riley is head and decides who gets which games and who will get a fifa badge.
    Riley is a MU fan.
    All refs in the PL know this.
    Riley doesn’t need to say anything.
    Riley will punish refs who don’t do what he likes. (we had a few examples in the past showing what happened when you displeased SAF and Riley in MU games)
    All refs in the PL know this. (again see examples given by ex-refs)

    Riley doesn’t have to say anything to the refs or instruct them. His regime of fear will make refs do what he wants them to do. No ref will want to ruin his successful career that earns him a nice pay check and some kind of celebrity status.

    Final result: refs will do what is needed to please Riley and have that in mind when they enter certain playing fields with certain teams.

    Another example on how Riley decides. We have 16-18 refs in the PL. So we should get each ref 2 times or 3 times at the most.
    Yet Riley sends Mason whom we had only 5 matches ago again. He will do Cardiff – Arsenal this Saturday.
    Mason is one of the refs whom we struggle with as he is poor in his foul calling, refuses to give us even the most blatant penalties and is a home ref.

    Coincidence? And do you think that the refs don’t know this? Surely they are not that dumb?

    Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if Riley uses our data to be honest.

    BTW: Cardiff never lost under Mason till now.

    A man like Riley who didn’t mind making a fool of himself in game 50 and made a mockery of refereeing in that game knowing that he was going to be exposed to the whole world and you think that he would become an honest and integer man after that… now when he can do things in back rooms and behind closed doors….. 🙂 🙂

35. Clattenburg I see has gone over to the dark side. Strange then that he gave us a penalty against Southampton. A shirt pull in fact which so many refs ignore.

    I’m sorry but to think there’s some company policy to penalize Arsenal is the biggest load of bull I’ve ever heard. All refs are told this are they? And among all of them, how many are there, ten, twenty?, not one of them dare speak out. I wonder if any are Arsenal fans. Of course not one of them has any morals or sense of justice. I’m a pretty cynical person but even I find that hard to accept. Even in a room full of coppers I’d find that hard to believe.

36. @Walter, as I said, and I keep saying, very few decisions are game changers. You are inferring that every decision if reversed will benefit Arsenal. You can’t prove this.

    I’ve heard all this before. I remember when we played Wigan at home last season and there was a moral panic on here because we were assigned a “bias” ref. As it was we won and the few decisions that may have been suspect had no bearing on the outcome of the game, which rather proves my point, which you love to ignore.

    And if Riley’s a Manu fan surely he’d loathe Liverpool most? Or is that too stereotypical?

    We’ll see what happens against Cardiff. They’re not easy to beat at home as we’ve seen.

37. Rupert,
    Clattenburg has given another penalty already this season for the same offence: a shirt pull after a corner.

    Clattenburg has been one of the most fair refs for Arsenal in the last seasons.
    Last season he was bad and made some mistakes against Arsenal. But he was bad in general so it could have been a coincidence.

    And Riley can break a ref his career in an instant.

    Talking about coppers and morals and sense of justice… I compared the referee world with the Mafia on more than one occasion in the past.

38. @Walter

    Good response to the rupert.

    However, there is a change in the rupert’s comments and behaviour, he used to disappear until we lost a match and then reappeared to knife the manager/team in the back. At present we have been winning most matches so his impatience to complain gets the better of him.

    Now he is trying to undermine the competence and integrity of UA – and is showing more and more of his true and unpleasant character – and is demonstrating how little he knows about football and refereeing.

39. @Walter, also why would Riley worry about Arsenal? The teams that have been threatening Manu’s dominance in recent years are Chelsea and Man City. We’ve rarely been close to winning the league.

    I expect you have to accept my argument about ref’s decisions very rarely being conclusive in a game’s outcome as you continue to ignore it.

40. @Rupert

    So what is your explanation for all the red in the Arsenal chart in the article?

    Calling Walter’s integrity into question is not an answer, just a cheap jibe.

    Mind you, I don’t know why I’m bothering. Apart from your hidden agenda, you obviously really enjoy annoying and provoking other people. Or at least Arsenal fans.

41. @Rupert

    I quote you ‘we’ve rarely been close to winning the league’.

    Maybe we were closer than you think.

42. @Pat

    Good comment. It is interesting that the rupert suddenly starts attacking the competence and integrity of Untold, at a time that Riley’s refs are for once coming under some criticism in the media. Coincidence? I don’t think so.

    The rupert continues to behave like a pawn, happy to be used by others – and the others have dark intentions.

43. Rupert,
    let me referee Crystal Palace – MU and you will see what a ref can do.

    Or look at game 50 under Riley and tell me that refs decisions rarely influence games.
    Or look at Dowd at Newcastle
    Probert at Fulham
    Probert at Wigan
    Dean at Old Trafford
    Dean at Tottenham
    Dean at Burnley
    Taylor against Sunderland
    Taylor against Norwich

    Just a few games from the back of my head where. Yep very rarely but I can name a few games without having to look for them.

44. And why Riley would bother with us? Maybe for humiliating his favourite team?

    Why does Hansen still hates us?
    Why does Shearer still hate us?

    Because we spoiled their parties and even Hansen after more than 15 years still cannot get over it.

    The humiliating bit by the way is going unbeaten one season. Something no other manager could manage not even the great SAF.

45. @bjtgooner
    “Now he is trying to undermine the competence and integrity of UA”
    I get the feeling Rupert is more of an author/owner of a rival website/blog/movement than a fan of Arsenal.
    Maybe that has been the case all along?

46. please tell us what you have seen, rupert

    have you seen wba play

    and you mean the referees (clattenburg) must ignore the rules

47. Or is Rupert really Mike Riley in disguise.☺

48. @Gunz

    Historically I noted that rupert’s comments seemed to be designed to further the interests of a certain overfed gentleman from Eastern Europe, but you could be right about a rival blog site. His attack on Walter is a new venture; perhaps someone out there is starting to feel the heat!

49. Walter

    I have to say I was shocked to see Mike Dean so close to the top.

    Your comment November 27, 2013 at 10:20 am, you say

    “All refs in the PL know this. (again see examples given by ex-refs)”- can you give me a link to these examples.

    Rupert

    You think very few decisions are game changers, however that is failing to see the bigger picture. If fouls are being called committed by Arsenal players, yet the opposition are getting away with the same indiscretions, it will affect the game. If Arsenal players are getting booked, yet the opposition are getting away without being booked for the same fouls, it will affect the game. It’s a form of attrition. It is also bound to get into the players minds, in the interest of fairness.

    Also Rupert, you ask a question earlier “when Arsenal had a brilliant team between 1998-2005, did we not win anything then if all the refs hated us?”. It was because we were so damn good and we won those trophies in spite of them. In fact I would go as far as to say we would have won much more had the refs been more fair. I used to think it was because we had a French manager and so many French players, and you know the attitude of the English towards French people and the conception of French arrogance.

    bjtgooner

    This is not an attack, just my opinion- but do you have to debate by namecalling. I mean “sewer rat”? One of the first rules of debating is not to descend into name- calling, as soon as you do your credibility and argument crumble

50. @TJ

    I am not trying to debate with rupert. I have long ago concluded that rupert is not an Arsenal fan and his continued purpose in posting on this site is not an honest one. Therefore I address him accordingly.

51. bjtgooner,

    I applaud you for not backing down on addressing Rupert as who or what he is. I’m fed up with society’s prioritisation of politeness over honesty and fact through political correctness. That is how hacks thrive: they lie through their teeth, feeding people bullshit but they do it by using polite and sensitive words.

    I say fuck it. I’ll take a truth telling potty mouth over a bullshitting prude everyday of the week, including weekends and bank holidays.

52. @Bootoomee

    Thanks for the support, I also appreciate the way you tell it like it is!

53. Bootoomee

    Are you really responsible for kids education? With your attitude I find that hard to believe, but if it is true i assume you were interviewed for your job. Would you have come out with any of that rubbish in your interview. No- and that makes you a hypocrite. I would love if your employers picked up on this through the photos on your “blog”.

    Besides, this has nothing to do with political correctness and honesty. What this does have everything to do with is common decency and maturity. You know nothing about Rupert except his opinion about Arsenal. For all you know Rupert is doing unpaid charity work weekly and helping old ladies across the road daily. But no, just because he does not share your opinion on Arsenal he is a sewer rat? Mature debate is usually free of infantile name calling. Would you encourage children at school to call other people names- like ‘sewer rat’ because they do not agree with their opinion? If so I for one am very happy you have nothing to do with my kids education or any influence on them with that attitude. You need to grow up.

54. TJ,

    Are you out of your fucking mind? What are you? A ten year old or have you just started commenting on the Internet? What the hell? Who the fuck are you? Reading my bio on my blog does not make you an expert on me or put you in position to pass judgement on my professional responsibility. Are you really that stupid? What has this forum and my contributions to it got to do with me being an educator and why is that fact relevant to any of our debate. Aren’t you really a scumbag by sneakily bringing my profession into question when I have no fucking idea who you are or what you do?

    How dare you mention my employer? Am I commenting about my job here or have I made any reference to the organisation that I work for? Have I said anything criminal or illegal? You are either monumentally stupid or just stuck in some 3rd world country where people don’t know their rights or where such exist but are ignored by the powerful. I know my right and employers are aware of the fact that they can’t trample on them.

    I rarely ever bring my professional bearing to any of my discussions here so I am puzzled by your fixation on this to score points against me. Also, you need to see me with my colleagues in our offices and out of the students’ earshot: we use colourful languages all the time. Being an educator does not mean you cannot swear or call people names, you just don’t do it in front of the students. You know just as newscasters can swear as long as they do it off air. I am really surprised that I have to explain this to you.

    Child, we are having a conversation on football fan blog, I can use whatever language I want and I can use name calling. It’s up to the site administrators what they find acceptable or not. Bringing up the stuff you did in your last comment to me has made me lose all respect for you and I never had much to begin with.

    Until you have provided me with an avenue to research your life, NEVER bring my profession into debates on this forum again, EVER!

    Now, fuck off.

55. @TJ

    Bootoomee is more than able to reply on his own behalf, so for now I will not enter your debate with him.

    What I want to draw attention to is your sentence: –

    “Would you encourage children at school to call other people names- like ‘sewer rat’ because they do not agree with their opinion?”

    The implication is that I call rupert a sewer rat because his opinion on AFC differs from mine. That is not the case and it is not what I outlined above. I call rupert a sewer rat (short for “depressive AAA sewer rat”) on the basis that his comments over quite an extended period have convinced me that he is not an Arsenal supporter, further, his comments on this site have an ulterior motive – based on deception and dishonesty. As such I will address him accordingly.

    I have explained this to you twice in the hope you are a straight guy and not a member of rupert’s nest. I hope a further explanation will not be required.

56. Oh. I am so scared!

    If you are going to put your autobiography online for anyone to access, and then post stupid comments encouraging people to namecall, you need to think about who is stupid. Anyone who reads your posts here could recognise that ‘don’t question my authority’ attitude, it’s pathetic. Do you really think your respect means anything to me? With your attitude I imagine you do not know the meaning of respect and i suspect i know what your idea of of respect is. I’ve met enough bullies before to immediately recognise one. Grow up

57. bjtgooner

    I see where you are coming from if that is your belief, but name calling is just so childish when you have the IQ to demolish his arguments by using your brain.

58. @TJ

    Thank you for the comment. But, rupert is immune to logic.

59. TJ,

    Why are you scared? Are you a pussy too? You little stinking pile of shit. When are you going to start your investigation (using photos on my blog) to find my employers in order to get me sacked for calling you names on the Internet? You are the same fucking retard who jumped into Ian Wright’s defence on an issue without having the slightest clue of what his Wright’s actions were that provoked the criticism. So yes, when it comes to morons like you, I’m Albert Einstein and you are definitely not knowlegeable enough to question my authority.

    Here is a lecture for you on bullies: they are the ones who use their knowledge of people’s life to score points in debates that have nothing to do with such. You are the one bullying me with the tiny bit that you know about me. It’s a cheap way to win an argument; the fact that you resort to that makes you worse than the worst name caller.

60. The funniest thing here is you continue with your name calling despite my attempts to educate you. I now realise it is wasted on you. For the record, bullying is the use of force, threat, or coercion to abuse, intimidate, or to impose domination over others. The behavior is often repeated and habitual. At no point have i ever attempted this, but it describes you as you come across here very well, with your coercion and approval of verbal abuse from one user to another.

    I really couldn’t care what you think, or think of me, I know I am someone who will always stand up to a bully. To me you are less than a nobody, and out of your depth here lad.

61. TJ,

    You moronic imbecile. I enjoy calling you names, you fucking voyeur. You are the idiot who think someone could get into trouble at their place of work for their legal and non-employment related comments on the Internet, just because you disapprove of such.

    You are not man enough to stand up to any bully. You are the type that smiles along politely to make the bullies happy in real life despite your prudish self righteousness around here. You jumped to defend Ian Wright, maligning me in the process, only to have a mea culpa a week later after finally hearing him vomit his anti-Arsenal diatribe. Strange that it took you that long but it’s good you finally listen to the one you were defending. Notwithstanding, in the matter between the great Ian Wright and the little me, you sided BLINDLY with the Wright.

    You are a pussy. Pussies suck up to bullies; they never stand up to them.

62. TJ, Rupert, stop ganging up on people on here, or trying to bully people by snooping into their private lives. It’s not on. I have also long suspected Rupert isn’t a genuine Arsenal fan, just trying to figure out his motives. What I don’t get is why one would not just come out in the open and state who one supports, or if one thinks Wenger is a so and so just spit it out and we respond accordingly, rather than post long-winded abstract posts with hidden messages. Cowards behave that way.

63. I just feel sorry for your family

64. TJ,

    Now you are going into a very dangerous territory. Back the fuck off.

65. AL

    i am not ganging up on anyone. And i have most certainly not snooped into someones private life. If it was private he would not have put up on the internet for all to see. All you have to do is click on his name, I mean the funny thing is he posted this himself.

    All I did was say to bjtgooner that people respect peoples opinions when they don’t go down the road of acting like children by name calling. In fact anyone that reads the thread will see I was the one ganged up on. Not that I could care less what anyone with two brain cells thinks

66. Bootoomee

    Don’t address or insult me…I won’t address or insult you….simples

67. Hey gents –

    It looks to me as if you all are of the same opinion about how Arsenal is being mistreated.

    So surely it’s a pity if you all fall out and insult each other over other matters which in comparison are probably a bit petty.

    Let’s try and re-unite the front. We’ve got enough enemies out there without arguing among ourselves.

    However, obviously you don’t have to agree with me, and I daresay if you want to go on insulting each other you will!

68. Very sensible Pat. I agree fully. The problem is if you disagree with some opinions you get called names

69. @TJ

    In your comment to AL about respecting peoples opinions you need to remember that rupert’s comments have over a long period of time been perceived as being extremely disrespectful to the team, manager and club. If his comments had been different then tonight’s debate would not have happened.

    When you initiated this debate through your comments to me in response to me addressing rupert as a sewer rat you did not look beyond to see why I might do so. Had you looked at rupert’s many snide comments before commenting yourself, you might have saved much bad feeling.

70. Just to add that Rupert has ended up questioning Walter’s integrity, which is pretty rude.

71. TJ,

    That’s the smartest comment you’ve posted all night. Your knowledge and intelligence on the game and Arsenal is not worthy of my interest anyway. Besides, I never have anything to do with sneaky and voyeuristic characters like you.

    You posted this:

    “Are you really responsible for kids education? With your attitude I find that hard to believe, but if it is true i assume you were interviewed for your job. Would you have come out with any of that rubbish in your interview. No- and that makes you a hypocrite. I would love if your employers picked up on this through the photos on your “blog”.”

    But then you lie in your comment to AL as if you were mere quoting from one of my articles! Apart from your inability to write coherently, you are a dishonest asshole too. Knowing my job through my blog does not give you any right to censor me or use it as a cudgel to beat me with when you disagree with me, especially in a forum that has nothing to do with my job. It’s sad that this is too difficult for you to comprehend.

    Anyway, thanks in advance for staying clear of me.

    Ta ta!

72. bjtgooner

    I can understand your frustration if that has been the case, but with all due respect,I would never condone namecalling or encouragement of the same to anyone. It is deconstructive. If he is actually ingenuine or a troll with other motives, I have not seen any evidence of it. He just seems to me like someone who questions everything, and that makes for debate, that’s what it is all about. I did not know that something called an ‘AAA’ existed before I came across this fine site. And besides, if that is the case, even answering to him is just playing into his hands

73. Pat,

    Even if I know all your life story, would it be right for me to use such knowledge to censor you in a neutral forum? You know me, I don’t shy from debates but I will never use my knowledge of anybody’s life details to beat them up in a non-related argument. It is utterly classless to read somebody’s details on their blog or elsewhere and start using such to censor them no matter how much you may disagree with them.

    Thanks for the peace making effort. I appreciate it.

74. @Pat

    I fully agree that rupert was rude to question Walter’s integrity and in the nasty manner in which he chose to do so.

    Further, your comment dated the 22 Nov fairly well finished the debate, but, for some strange reason rupert reopened it today.

    While I agree with you that it is better not to fight amongst ourselves, it is also important to support the club against those who would undermine it and….. I do like a good scrap now and again!

    Also, sometimes in a scrap the true nature of the protagonists comes to the fore – always useful.

75. Bootoomee,

    You really are hard to get through to. Anyone that clicks on your name will see I only mentioned details that you have been stupid enough to have supplied on the site- it’s amusing you would be even stupid enough to do that.

    You no nothing of knowledge or intelligence, but i can assure you, I knowledgeable and intelligent enough not to post my details online if i am going to start insulting people. Anyone who reads back through your bile, where i have been called dozens of names without resorting to your level will realise the gulf in intelligence and maturity here.

    Goodnight now.

    Love and kisses

76. Walter
    Isn’t there a naughty corner or something you can do?
    This is a serious topic.

    6 people in England have been charged today for match fixing in non premier league games so far but it could be the tip of the iceberg.

    Off course, some folks here will keep bullshitting that’s it’s all imaginary.

77. I think we could do with some Brickfields over here….

    May I suggest that we stop doing what some maybe want us to do: fight amongst each other.

    I also think that personal matters need to be kept out unless it is related to the article itself or being brought up by the person himself.

    Just let us try to act sensible.
    We will need our arguments whenever the team has a result that isn’t to the liking of the AAA. So lets preserve it for them at that moment. Don’t waste your ammunition

78. TJ,

    Don’t run away, you coward. For the umpteenth time, and I hope this finally get into your thick skull: knowing details about me does not give you any right to use them in NON-RELATED arguments. I’m foulmouthed while you are a prude. It’s all good. Let’s just talk about the issues and not get personal, just because you have read some vague details about me.

    I want to believe hundreds of visitors at Untold have clicked on my blog. It says a lot about how low you are as a human being that you 1st and only one to have ever used, again, the very vague details in my bio. I paste them below to show the world the world those details that your moronic self think are too sacrosanct to be displayed on my own personal blog. The details are fine. You are the classless one.

    From http://www.bootoomee.com/about/

    About

    My name is Bootoomee. Welcome to my blog.

    I am an Electrical Engineer, an IT professional and an Educator.

    I am married to a wonderful woman and we are blessed with a deliciously feisty set of twin girls.

    I am crazy about Arsenal Football Club. I am a positive and optimistic Gooner. I believe in Arsene Wenger even though I admit that he makes mistakes.

    I am not religious but I hold very strong and mostly negative views of religion. You may not like what you read about religion here. Other than showing logical flaws and hypocrisies of religions, I shall make no attempt to deliberately offend any faith or its adherents.

    I am liberal about 90% of the time. I am fairly conservative on discipline and parenting. I am 100% pragmatic, however. My preferred position on any issue is the position that will yield the best result. I am guided by common sense and logic; not ideology.

    What you’ll read here are my thoughts, opinions and ideas on issues that I care about. Where I may cause offense, I apologise as I am wholly responsible for my mistakes. I shall go to extra-ordinary lengths to give credit to those it is due whenever I use the work of others. In case I fail to do this, kindly notify me in the comments (info on the original sources shall be highly appreciated) and prompt amends shall be made.

    Read, enjoy (or endure?) and please, please, please leave a comment if you can. Thank you.

79. @TJ

    I don’t think you have yet grasped my outlook on rupert.
    I am not in the slightest frustrated with his antics, although I do feel his comments are designed to undermine Arsenal and this site.

    As described above I do not attempt to debate with him – and I have explained why.

    What I will do is counter some of his silly points – in a direct manner.

    While rupert does display troll like tendencies he not a troll, or more correctly not just a troll. (He may have a troll like need for attention.) He does however display comments that fit the pattern of a long term end game or additionally that are designed to benefit others who have dark ambitions. Almost always such comments are negative and snide.

    The question which you could ask is “when will rupert stop his comments?” – I suspect rupert is sucking up to someone else and that third party will decide when rupert should stop.

80. @ Walter , here I am ,and here’s one to best friends …

    A guy walks into a bar and orders a triple scotch. The bartender pours him the drink and the guy downs it in one gulp. “Wow”, says the bartender, “Something bad must have happened”.
    Yeah it did, he said. “I came home early today, went up to the bedroom, and found my wife having sex with my best friend.” The bartender pours the guy another triple shot. “This one’s on the house”. The dude gulps it down once again.
    The bartender asks “Did you say anything to your wife ? ” The guy answers “Yea, I walked up to her, told her to pack her bag’s and get out !
    ” “What about your friend ?” asks the bartender.
    “I looked him straight in the eye and said BAD DOG”

81. This is fun ?

    An angry wife was complaining about her husband spending all his free time in a bar, so one night he took her along with him. “What’ll you have?” he asked.
    “Oh, I don’t know. The same as you I suppose,” she replied. So, the husband ordered a couple of Jack Daniel’s and threw his down in one shot.
    His wife watched him, then took a sip from her glass and immediately spat it out. “Yuck, that’s TERRIBLE!” she spluttered. “I don’t know how you can drink this stuff!”
    “Well, there you go,” cried the husband. “And you think I’m out enjoying myself every night!”

82. Confessions ….

    An old priest who became sick of all the people in his parish who kept confessing to adultery. One Sunday, in the pulpit, he said, “If I hear one more person confess to adultery, I’ll leave the priesthood!”
    Well, everyone liked him, so they came up with a code word. Someone who had committed adultery would say they had “fallen”. This seemed to satisfy the old priest and things went well, until the priest died at a ripe old age. About a week after the new priest arrived, he visited the Mayor of the town and seemed very concerned.
    The priest said, “you have to do something about the sidewalks in town. When people come into the confessional, they keep talking about having fallen.”
    The Mayor started to laugh, realizing that no-one had told the new priest about the code word.
    Before the mayor could explain, the priest shook an accusing finger at the mayor and said, “I don’t know what you’re laughing about, Your wife fell two times this week.”