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May 2021

PGMO admits Untold Arsenal was right

By Walter Broeckx

With taking away the match  between Stoke and Tottenham from referee Friend next Monday the PGMO has opened a can of worms it seems.

Because for the first time the PGMO has openly admitted that not all refs are completely and always impartial. And well… it is rubbish to believe they are. They are human beings and have their preferences. And yes I can imagine that most of them will do their utmost best to not let their personal bias interfere with their decision making. But still as they are human it will influence them.

But there is and will be some kind of bias amongst referees. Denying that is like denying that the sun is there to give us light every day.

In the press conference Wenger was asked about it. And Wenger had said he had discussed this with Mike Riley and if they were to take that in account (the team they support and doing the rivals of the team they support) would make it almost impossible to appoint referees to games.

Now with the PGMO openly admitting they cannot be 100% sure their refs are completely impartial and unbiased we have taken an amazing step.

In fact the PGMO has openly admitted that what those of us writing for Untold Arsenal have been saying  is in fact… A FACT. Lots of facts in that sentence but that is the way it is. We have seen strange patterns over the years emerging from our reviews and now the PGMO openly admits that it can happen.

It is stupid to think that refs only support local teams and not the big teams. They all grew up as young kids and watched football, supported maybe their local pub team, their local town team and then as we mostly do they also felt a big sympathy for one of the big teams in the top division. That is how most football followers act. Why would referees be different to this?

Now indeed in a way the PGMO and Mike Riley is right. If they take into account not only the team they follow but also the matches in which rivals of those teams are playing and then refrain from giving them no matches relating to those teams … they could not send referees to most matches.

So what is the solution from the PGMO and Mike Riley?  Sadly they don’t look at it.   They stick their heads in the sand. Okay, one possible solution but certainly not the best.

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But how is it possible that they have to stick their heads in the sand? What could be done to make sure that each match would get the fair and unbiased referee that they should deliver?

Well why wouldn’t Mike Riley start with … getting more referees???? We now have this season 14 full time referees in the PL. An all-time low. Who is to blame for this? The PGMO and the FA whose job it is to deliver the referees who can handle the job.

If the PGMO and the FA had listened to what Untold Arsenal have been writing for ages (well 5-6 years ago when we started suggesting this) then we now would have at least 20 refs in the PL and if possible even 25 refs. That is for me the absolute minimum a 20 team league should have available. Not just for the bias but also for the handling of fatigue amongst refs (the more a ref is tired the more mistakes he will make).

If they had listened to Untold they would have had no problem to not give Friend a match that involved rival teams of his local teams. But hey ho, what does Untold knows about this? They (PGMO and FA) know it much better.

Another possible solution would be that all leagues who have professional referees would come together and form a European referee agency in which all referees are put in one pot and the games are randomly distributed amongst the referees from all over Europe.

That would have a lot of benefits. You still might get a biased ref for your match. If I would be appointed to do an Arsenal match or a Tottenham match… that could be not ideal. But if you have around 100 refs you can make sure that you will not do each team more than once. In fact they could organize themselves in such a way that I could only get a certain team once every 2 or 3 seasons. So the chance of one biased referee having a big influence on the outcome of a league would be very low.

Compare this to the situation in the PL where the PGMO has to admit there might be some influence and considering that some referees do some teams (and not even talking about their rivals) up to 6 times in a season! That is a possible 18 points per season! And yes we have had seasons where Dean did 6 of our matches….just try to win a league with one such referee…. And there could be others like Probert who did matches in those days in a very biased way.

Another advantage might be that all those professional referees from Europe will follow the same guidelines and instructions in the same way. So the training and education of the refs will become more unified and as a result the consistency should become higher. And isn’t that something we all want from referees?

Where I don’t follow Wenger is that he expects referees to be 100% professional. Sorry Arsène but as a ref I know this is dreamland. But it shows the way you are of course. Wenger will always be 100% professional and so he thinks all people will act like that.

Another last step to do is to give those referees all the help they need. Using technology to assist them about the big calls would probably be the ultimate step to improve refereeing. Not just in the PL but in the whole world.

Maybe the PGMO, FA and PL might read our proposals and think about them. And who knows one day they will come up with this. Probably 10 years after we first mentioned them but well.. Rome wasn’t built in a day….

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72 comments to PGMO admits Untold Arsenal was right

  • I don’t think Mr Wenger is under any misapprehension about referees – he is just staying out of trouble.

    Remember that in August 2000 when Arsenal played Sunderland it was suggested that after the game Mr Wenger, who until that moment had an utterly unblemished record as a manager, had indulged in violent or threatening behaviour against Mr Taylor, the fourth official. At a hearing on 10 October was found guilty and given a 12 match ban.

    He appealed. The charge was reduced to “improper conduct” before the hearing. The finding was that Mr Wenger was guilty touching the official, and not “jostling or holding” him as Taylor had alleged.

    It was agreed that two players were jostling in the tunnel. Mr Wenger agreed that he then touched Taylor with a gesture that most people recognise not as manhandling but as “I’ll sort this out” and he then pulled Thierry Henry away.

    In the event Mr Wenger was given a reprimand, fined £10,000 and ordered to pay the costs of the appeal board.

    The fine was ludicrous for an action which had the effect of calming a situation which the fourth official could not handle. And it was clear that Taylor had lied in the hearing in terms of what he claimed against Wenger.

    Then Taylor himself was charged with misconduct for insulting comments to Notts County’s Sean Farrell during the game against Wigan on October 14. That was heard on 6 February 2001 and found “not proven”.

    Wenger knows all about refs – and about how insane and biased these private hearings are.

  • finsbury

    Is Friend one of the better officials on Riey’s smudged roster?
    Have’t checked his scores from the ref reviews but the impression is that he has been more friendly then the other Crows. And professional too.

    Perhaps his error was not to have the obvious vanity of Clattenburg, therefore he couldn’t or can’t be bullied by less oblique methods.

    So unlike the blatant bunglers who we have seen upon the pitch this season more then recent others, all the pgMOB representatives not fit to wear the shirt, Friend is being relatively punished here.

    A remarkable act by the pgMOB.

  • Al

    That’s an interesting view there! 🙂 I had not looked at it that way, and yes, it certainly looks like pgmob might actually be trying to use a ref who WILL ensure the spuds get some points from Stoke. Because I don’t think we have ever seen such a reassignment on that basis ever. The whole thing didn’t make any sense considering how they get refs like Taylor to do Utd games when he practically lives a stone’s throw from old Trafford.

    This might be a ploy to ensure spuds and Leicester both collect maximum points this weekend, and ensure at least one of them bags the title. Not leaving any room for any slip ups, the spuds have tight matches, they still need to go to Chelsea.

  • para

    Finsbury and Al:
    Well this is the first thing that came to mind when i read above.

    Let’s see what happens, we have the time as Arsenal does not play til Sun. Arggghhh.

    Should be really interesting.

  • Al

    Off topic; city v madrid, exactly like I said on Tuesday. Some of these things are too predictable to be just coincidence.

  • austinpaul

    Yes ,too predictable! I knew City will be stacked against Real, too predictable indeed!

  • SamuelAkinsolaAdebosin

    @Finsbury, hmm, I am inclined to agree with your notion that the Pgmob might not afterall be admitting the fact that some of their referees which includes their lines and 4th officials if not all of them are biased or can be partial in their match officiating jobs.

    With the next steps the Pgmob will take if at all they’ll take any, we’ll know in due course of time if actually the Pgmob have actually admitted to the allegations that their match officials are not honest in the discharge of their official duties.

    This change of referee Mr Friend with another referee to officiate in the match between Stoke vs Tottenham could actually be a ploy by the Mike Riley’s Pgmob to make sure Spurs collect maximum points from this match to further frustrate Arsenal from gaining any advantage in the table on Leicester and Spurs after the matches involving the 3 clubs are played on Sunday.

    The Pgmob can propose. However, Is God who discharges power, authority and have the final say on any matter. Arsenal will be fine.

  • norman14

    The replacing of Friend was not requested by any club – it was requested by supporters of, presumably, the Totts.

    Yet when we got 106,000 signatures on the petition against Dean, PGMO chose to ignore us!

    So, perhaps it’s not the referee’s bias that we have to worry about, but those above them, including Riley and the match assessors.

    A can of worms indeed.

  • Andrew Crawshaw

    I wrote my ref preview for this weekend on Wednesday before the change off Friend. I have had to correct his name and the number of games officiated. I haven’ changed anything else. I was sure on Wed that we will be screwed and haven’t changed my mind since. After all whoever is in charge will have Dean whispering in their ear all game and we know what impact that can have on a good refereeing score!

  • Willis


    Where is Proud Kev…???

    He predicted this and he was the one who said the use of referees involving their local clubs was a problem. Didn’t he speak to a former PGMO referee and they agreed?

    He wrote one of the best blog articles I have seen anywhere on this very subject. Read it again, this is EVERYTHING he said. He said Anthony Taylor was getting Man Utd games despite the FA warning them.

    Am I the only one that misses Proud Kev’s comments on here? A big loss to Untold. Where is he?

  • serge


    Proudkev has been discredited and doesn’t spout his BS here anymore.

  • Notoverthehill

    Walter, there are 19 names on the Premier League roster, and all are full-time and salaried?

  • Willis

    Serge, you are an absolute tool.

    Discredited? Where are your blog articles? Everything Pk said on the subject of referee appointments has now been proved to have been true. Go read the blog comments. He said referees were being awarded to local sides. He spoke to referees. Read the blog he did about the lack of risk assessment, I’ll find It if you can’t be bothered. We printed it off and pinned it on our notice board it was popular. Now appears he was 100% correct.

    BTW, what’s your problem mate? What’s your motive for abusing a great commentator and a proper fan?

  • serge


    Absolutely correct. What is it about “truth & good stories”?

  • Al

    Yes, PK wrote an article based on this after he spoke with Keith Hackett..

    Was there really an uproar from spurs on social media regarding this? I don’t follow spurs news so wouldn’t know. Our petition made mainstream news so everybody knew about it. Whereas with this one… don’t recall ever hearing anything about it till after the reassignment. A quick Google search returned nothijg tangible, so I suspect the pgmob just thought we will back ourselves by saying the fans complained and we listened. When in fact they have their own ulterior motives.

    Either way they’re digging themselves into a deeper hole; if they say they responded to fans concerns then why not responded to the Arsenal petition that had over 106k signatures, and was mentioned on virtually every sporting channel and publication? If they try the we saw a potential conflict of interest route then again Arsenal and several other clubs will say but why did you let other referees such as Taylor get involved in matches for clubs they live close to?

    It all points to one thing, as this article says, there is nothing honest about this re-appointment, Riley is just attempting a pull of one his pathetic, obvious and daft cons on us. He’s not smart at all, and only the complicit media save this clown from being shown for what he really is; a complete weasel. They’re protecting him, and only they know why.

  • serge


    In the article that you refer to he said that there were no referees from the South, and when it was pointed out that there are two from Wiltshire he countered by saying that Wilts was too far West to be relevant. Good thing we have no referees from Margate. or Clacton.
    Then he wrote another article in which he falsified the stats and when it was pointed out to him by plenty of posters on here he didn’t have the balls to give an explanation and has never been seen or heard of since.
    So I still contend that he has been discredited.

  • Al

    I am sure Walter will let you know why he said 14, but if I remember well, of the 19 I think 5 of them have done less than 4 matches or something like that to be considered regular officials. You could say they’re being trialled.

  • finsbury

    Al, paid apprenticeships? Until they are fit for purpose? Who knows but the croaking crows? As we saw with apprentice Taylor who graduated at the beginning of the 13/14 season? A little prematurely in the end ha ha ha!

    In relation to friend when giving the Refwatch preview summary to fans and friends I sit with when lucky enough to be at a game, from football fans to dysphoric Sado-masochists, and friend has been the official at a match I’ve been happy to summarise:

    He is more friendly then most. As in when you see an error in most of his matches they tend to not stink out the ground, not mentioning any names I can think of *gollum gollum*. Who’s the 4th official/evil shadow or wraith on Sunday? Oh. I guess the punters (that would be you and me) will be getting their money’s worth then.

    I blame Venga (for the pgMOBs inability to find more then 14 top flight officials in the nation with the highest number of amateur clubs and volunteers involved in the sport. I guess the numbers, like the pgMOBs accuracy figures, or other data recorded here and there, some numbers just don’t add up.

  • Jerry


    Walter is correct that there are only 14 Full Time (Select Group) referees this year.

    If you look at the list of 19 names, you’ll notice that 5 officials have done 4 or less games (Attwell, Hooper, Scott, Stroud, and Tierney).

    Attwell and Tierney with 4 matches done have been promoted to the Select Group for next year (so clearly not Full Time this season).

    Graham Scott with 4 matches is in the Select Group but was out with a long term injury to start the season and then only did 4 matches between Dec 12 and Feb 13, but has not been seen since. Not sure if he had a possible injury setback or not.

    Hooper and Stroud did 1 and 2 matches respectively all season.

    Another interesting case is Lee Probert who is not on the PL list, but is still listed as a FIFA international referee on the FIFA site. No idea what happened to him.

    But long story short, only 14 referees would be considered full time.

  • Jerry

    @serge and Willis,

    Proudkev is a good commenter and wish he would write again soon.

    The article serge refers to did not discredit Proudkev’s work, the stats had mislabeled headings which is an honest mistake that everyone makes, he did not made up numbers like you are insinuating above.

  • Jerry

    Apologies for the grammar above, my mind was caught in between typing “did not make up…” and “he did not have made up…”

  • Willis

    Serge, how many premier league teams are in Wiltshire? You don’t seem able or prepared to accept the point. Is it not relevant all nut two regs are from the North?
    You seem too desperate to discredit. Everything proud Kev said was correct. He said Mike Dean was removed from a cup final with Liverpool by the FA. Google it hrs right. He said refs should not do their local teams. In the media now this is suddenly an issue in the news. He was right!

    You seem to Be very selective here. What’s your problem? I repeat what’s your problem? You obviously get everything right and never make a mistake. So be honest whats behind your agenda re Pk?

  • norman14


    I didn’t say it was Spurs!

    I said it was reported that some supporters had complained on social media. I only assumed it would be Spurs supporters – who else would care?

    It was on Sky Sports News running on their ticker for most of Thursday.

  • Willis

    Jerry. Well said. Typing on a phone is not easy!

    seems Serge has never made a mistake and seems he has an axe to grind. Proud Kev was correct about PGMO and local refs, as has been proved this week.

  • Gunner6

    Since you are so sure of getting things right the way you criticise PK, why don’t you write an article about the topic of your choice and let us critique.

  • Zuruvi

    As regards Proud Kev, I was one of those that wanted him to respond to the “genuine” criticism regarding his last article.

    I was NOT attacking ProudKev but I thought his brilliantly written article could discredit Untold if his facts were wrong.
    I loved reading Proud Kev’s contributions so I was rather disappointed when he didn’t defend his data by confirming them (or by telling us his source).

    This is a Forum for Arsenal-lovers so we should as far as possible be honest with ourselves as far as facts and figures are concerned.

    I love Untold because most articles and responses are intelligent. Disagreement is fine. Facts and positions are challenged. And this makes Untold Arsenal a joy to read.

    My position regarding Proud Kev was just a request that he checks his facts and data and if necessary he re-writes the article. I thought the article was very well-written but the data seemed inaccurate according to fellow-Gooners.
    I had even “liked” the Article on my Facebook so all my fb contacts got to read it too. Some of my Arsenal-hating friends highlighted the supposed errors in the stats and started saying “Typical Arsenal fans, creating fiction so as to blame others for their poor performances”.
    (Sorry … I’m a fool. I have a few friends that support Man Utd, Chelsea and Liverpoo. These guys seem to enjoy seeing Arsenal in trouble. I know I should choose my friends wisely, but …. Shit happens).

    I do hope ProudKev is OK. I hope he soon returns to Untold.

  • serge


    Whether you like it or not PK was wrong in saying there were no refs from the South. It doesn’t matter that there are no premier league teams in Wilts. They are part of the select group and he was wrong to say they were not relevant. In fact having no premier teams in their area makes them all the more of value as unbiased officials. I’m not disputing any of the other stuff from his otherwise excellent article.

    And whatever Jerry or anyone else says about an”honest mistake” is a matter of opinion. Why didn’t he offer an explanation. I think it was a deliberate attempt to misinform, but I may be wrong. There’s no agenda. I just don’t like being bullshitted to.

    Gunner6: Don’t be so childish. I’m not an article writer any more than you are. But I have an opinion. When you’re 7 you may understand this.

    Right, that’s all I have to say on this. Got better things to do.

  • Pat

    Clattenburg was also recently hung out to dry by the FA when his red card decision was rescinded. Interestingly it was a West Ham player and it was just before they played us so the player was reinstated in time for that match.

    Commenting on the decision to rescind the red card, two retired premier league referees said it was a mistake and would encourage more violence on the field.

    Clattenburg has been picked on about issues on two previous occasions. It’s almost as if someone is trying to keep him in line.

  • Gunner6

    The not an article writer defence. Happy to critique nonetheless. Poor excuse.
    I used to write for an Arsenal blog but personal matters meant I had to stop.
    As for calling me childish, it takes a bigger one with your age reference.

  • Al

    They’ll never be fit for purpose, even if it takes a 100 years 🙂

    Sorry I didn’t articulate my point well… Like you, I just assumed the uproar must have come from the spuds, hence my question if anyone had seen anything from the spurs fans before the reassignment. I think the switch was made Wednesday evening? If that’s correct then sky were trying to appear to be wiser after the event, if they had it on Thursday all day.

    I didn’t want to wade into this but to accuse ProudKev of deliberately misinforming people is a cheap shot. The data that PK supplied was correct, and so were his sources. The only mistake he did was to confuse the “for” and “against” table, hence he reached the wrong conclusion. Take for example, someone is mixes the goals for and goals against in the league table, they’ll no doubt come up with an incorrect goal difference. In this case, the net result was the same; the actual difference was only by a margin of something like 2 units, instead of the 30 or 40 units PK thought was the case. NB the figures ,2 ,30 and 40 are just random figures but they are for demonstrational purposes only. The main point is, if I can go back to my goal difference analogy again, the goal difference might have been a +2 or +30, but it was still a positive goal difference, despite the fact the figures had been mixed up. I think we have all looked at tables and mixed up those columns. Anyone saying they haven’t woulf be lying outright.

  • Jerry

    Perhaps you should read the article by Proudkev again talking about referee geographical bias to Manchester where he clearly talked about the refs from Wiltshire:

    “Finally TWO from Wiltshire; Roger east and Lee Probert and that’s your lot.

    None from London, the South East, the Home Counties or the South. The most densely populated regions have no referees with suitable ability to referee in the Premier League? Are we really expected to believe this. There is clearly a Northern bias in the selection of referees and that is unhealthy for a variety of reasons.”

    The whole basis of the article was to highlight the geographical discrepancies of match officials with 7 from Manchester area. In fact you seemed to agree with the premise of that article typing on October 26, 2015 at 8:00PM:

    “It’s strange that they can’t promote any from the National Group where there are 18 from the South including Wiltshire (which I consider the South). So there’s no shortage, but still none from London.”

    Perhaps time or bias has clouded your memory.

  • Willis

    Serge, you annoy me keep saying ‘BS’. I hate smug, grudge holders and petty point scorers like you. He listed the data he hid nothing just interpreted wrong. That is not bullshiting anyone.

    everything PK said about PGMO and the way they appoint refs was bang on the money. This week he was proved correct with the Friend thing. PK exposed A Taylor getting Utd games and the story about Dean. All true. he even bothered to speak to the ref who used to do Mike Riley job at PGMO about the appointments. BS? Have you ever bothered to write? Not seen you do anything other than pick holes in what other people say. Not just PK, youvate a nitvl picker. I was just a reader of this blog like my mates. We all liked PK and the way Untold reported PGMO.

    How much of what is written in the media and on blogs is error or BS free? Are the Wenger Out blogs always 100% correct in what they say? Our press? Not everyone is as perfect as you.

  • walter

    As Jerry pointed out only 14 full time PL referees this season. The 5 other are not regular PL referees. Two will be promoted for next season. Would bring the tally to a still unacceptable 16.

  • serge


    You’ll need to give me a date for that quote by Proud Kev
    Here’s two for you.
    Dec 7: “of the 16 select group referees, 14 come from the Midlands or North. None are from, the home counties or the South” Exactly the same as in your post at 10pm, but WITHOUT the “Finally TWO from Wiltshire….”
    Feb 29: “We know that there is not a single Southern based referee in the select group.” Not a word about Wilts again.
    Nothing clouding my memory

  • serge


    Sorry you find me an annoying, smug, grudge holding petty point scorer. I’ll try to do something about that.
    PK articles were good in their content, but inaccurate inasmuch as he said on two occasions ( Dec 7 & Feb 29 ) that there were no referees from the South.That was a very damning accusation. I’m not making it up, that’s what he said.These were not mistakes, but lies or to put it another way, BS.
    Have you considered why he’s not been seen here for over a month?

  • Jerry

    I did give you a date in the response: OCTOBER 26, 2015 which was his article titled :

    You’ll also see your quote in support of his article at 8 PM of that same article written by Proudkev which is what you were attacking.

    In the Dec 7 article, he says at 10:23 PM:

    “14 of 16 PL refs from North. The other two from the South West, Wiltshire. 1 in 3 chance of getting a referee from the NW.”

    So in multiple articles he mentioned Wiltshire, but you focus on the 1 article in the comments he says that Wiltshire is too far West on February 29.

  • Jerry

    While we’re at it, of the two officials from Wiltshire: Roger East and Lee Probert, can you tell me the last match Lee Probert did in the PL this season?

    That’s right, make it 1 official from Wiltshire.

  • Al

    Serge has an axe to grind..

  • serge

    Very sorry, I completely missed your October 26 reference.
    So why if he truthfully says there are two from Wilts in that first article on the subject (which I even supported with a comment) does he then omit that info from two subsequent articles? And not just omit but actually says there are none from the South.
    The correction in the Dec 7 comments section only partially redeems as it shouldn’t have been necessary in the first place, and he again used the comments on Feb 29 to try to fanny me off when I pointed his error out to him.
    “So in multiple articles he mentioned Wiltshire…” Not completely accurate as he only mentioned it in one actual article ( Oct 26 ) and resorted to the comments section in two others and on one of those didn’t admit he was wrong.

  • Tasos

    Man Utd V Aston Villa Sat April 16th
    Ref; Anthony Taylor

    Clearly the PGMO are not applying the above rules for the mancunian Anthony Taylor.

    I suggest public perception is everything here.

  • Jerry


    Make that 1 ref from Wiltshire since Probert has not been active all season and perhaps it was omitted because some people actually include Wiltshire with West Country. It is not as uncommon as you think. Just because you do not agree with it, does not give you the right to ridicule someone else that does, especially when you know they are not here to defend themselves.

  • Willis

    Serge is petty point scoring. Selectively choosing what he wants to say, what a hypocrite. Doing exactly what he has accused PK of doing! As for BS, that is out of order and untrue as Serge knows.

    PK’s article was so accurate, as was proved this week, it it proves hus research was bang on the money. Proved. He went out of his Way to get quotes from people like Keith Hackett.

    Wiltshire in context is a football back water in Premier league terms. It’s over 100 miles from London! IConcentration is the big cities. London is unrepresented. Manchester, Liverpool, etc is over represented. Everything PK said was true. Yiu know the point he was making but you’re ignoring it. Too stupid or axe to grind serge is acting odd.

    Stop back stabbing. I see people like you on blogs all the time who just want to act like they are the law on everything. I can’t stand nasty, nit pickers like you Serge who behave like bullies.

    Pk was right. The news this week proved it. PGMO has a lot of questions to answer. Perhaps Pk and Untold have been read by the mainstream media?

  • serge


    Yes, Wilts is in the West, but it’s still in the South. South West or South East, it’s still in the South, and only 80 miles from London.

    If Probert has been absent this season he should have been removed from the list.

    Perhaps I am ridiculing him, but if he puts misinformation onto football blogs he should expect it and my criticism isn’t just about “no refs from the South” as there’s also the more serious issue of the so called “honest mistake” article he wrote for publication on March 20th. How do you explain that?

  • serge

    One other thing. He’s always got the opportunity to come back and counter my criticism, so I’m not really being unfair to him.

  • serge


    I find it difficult to respond to you without getting unpleasant, but I’ll try.
    Wilts may be a backwater (and it’s not so far from London) in football terms but two Premiership referees live there which has been my point all along..Yes, the South and London are underrepresented, but that’s not my point. My point is the misinformation PK has put in some of his posts.
    PK wrote some decent accurate well researched stuff and I commend him for that.

  • norman14

    I see the media is STIRRING again, with regards to Arsene’s comments about squad investment.

    Why do these bastard’s always have to start with the words “Arsenal fans” when referring to comments from the manager? Do they really think that we need to read, or listen to their shit, to know what goes on in our club?


  • Jerry


    Probert is not listed anymore as a Premier League ref on the website as I mentioned above, but still listed under the FIFA website. Surprisingly, or maybe not, the PL website on referees now is not working today. Since he has not done any matches this year, that’s 1 ref from Wiltshire.

    Yes I am aware Wiltshire is in Southwest England, but honestly this disagreement depends on how you define the area. Not the best of sources, but from Wikipedia:

    “The term “West of England” is also often used more widely to include the counties of Gloucestershire, Somerset and Wiltshire; sometimes extending to Devon and Dorset. These counties also form part of the South West of England, a region which additionally includes Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, which are in fact the most westerly parts of England.”

    I am not saying I agree with this rather wide definition, but perhaps Proudkev used this definition instead of just the North/South distinction.

  • Jerry

    In regards to the honest mistake article, Al already explained it to you at 9:57PM

  • Willis

    Jerry. You have explained things clearly. For whatever read n, Serge has decided to slag off PK despite most of what he had written being FACT. Also, funny how Serge has not picked on anyone else who has put out articles that make odd errors. Serge appears to have an unhealthy obsession with PK.

    As we all know. What PK researched and wrote about PGMO and home team referees was vindicated this week. Why is Serge deliberately missing the point about referee locality? He knows PK referred to Wiltshire, the list of referees included probably.

    I don’t know OK but I do know he was a great writer and Gooner. In fact what he claimed has now been picked up in the media and has been seen to be true. He was the only one who told us the FA Pulled mike Dean from a Liverpool Cup Final because they were his home team. Serge is not telling us why he’s being such an arrogant hypocrite.

  • Gord


    This week, the septic bladder volunteered to come to the USA to be a witness in the corruption trial. Or rather, he said he would make himself available. And he got heckled either before or after this, and the rent-a-goons carted off the hecklers.

    What this really, is that the septic one wants to enter into evidence, misleading information which might be useful if he is charged in the future. And possibly he wants to help in case others (the infant one) get charged. There has to be some way to continue the feed trough.

    Hey septic one! You just keep quiet until it is time for you to testify in your own behalf to the charges that will be laid against you.

    And both you and the platitude one forget about the idea of being invited to a world cup in the future, where you can collect some brown paper bags you think are still due you.

  • Al

    Guys, I’m convinced some people who frequent this site have their own hidden agendas. As a commenter and contributor to Untold, ProudKev was up there with the best. I mean he even sought Hackett out, the former pgmol chairman replaced by Riley, for his views on refereeing standards and the lop-sided geographical representation. I don’t know if any journos in the mainstream media ever tried or did that. I can’t eulogise enough on the immense contribution he did here. And when he made a simple mistake as get two columns mixed up some want him crucified? And these are Arsenal supporters. Really?

    PK did not try some complex formula to try and present his argument. His argument was simple and very basic, and anyone looking at the data could easily spot where an error slipped through. A simple error really, that anyone can and will make. And we are supposed to discredit all the hard work he did all because of a small and obvious error? Unbelievable.

  • upp

    PK’s conclusions were based on faulty data, he’s had enough time to retract his article and apologise. I think until he does that he remains discredited

  • upp

    There are 19 EPL refs, similar to many leagues in Europe. If you contend that the spread of matches referreed is different than in other European leagues, then give us the data from other leagues and remember to give a credible source (unlike PK)

  • Jerry


    19 different refs have done EPL games. All of them are not full time (part of the Select Group). Only 14 refs are part of the Select Group (they did greater than 15 matches).

    The other 5 officials were either on trial or injured:
    1+2: Paul Tierney and Stuart Attwell did 4 games each and were promoted to the Select Group for next season
    #3- Graham Scott is was promoted to the Select Group last season but was injured at the start of season and did 4 matches total between Dec and Feb
    #4- Keith Stroud did 2 matches
    #5- Simon Hooper did 1 match

    So yes, this year has 14 full time refs unlike other European Leagues.

    Now based on your requirements for PK, until you retract your comments and apologize to Walter, all your comments are discredited.

  • upp

    19refs did epl matches, this is similar to the number I found with many European leagues. The epl website lists the number of epl refs at 19.the breakdown into select and non select is secondary. My challenge to Walter is this, if he has proof that the other European league refs have more evenly spread number of games, then he should show it and claim pgmo is different. Note that this isnt an assertion that may or may not be disproved. I’m simply saying if you claim the pgmo is different from other leagues then it’s your responsibility to show credible evidence that it indeed is. A point PK and his apologists (like you) will do well to note.

  • Andy Mack

    AW has learnt the hard way that it is always wise to say in public that you have confidence in the officials.
    Occasionally a public outburst after a game when serious mistakes have been made (like with Blind Mike Dean), may achieve some specific aim but can have a negative effect over a season.
    I’m sure any problems with them are regularly discussed with them (or at least tried to be discussed with them) behind closed doors, by AW or a club rep. Whether the PMGO takes any notice or not is beyond anyones control whilst they continue to work as a secret dictatorship.

  • Andy Mack

    Serge, As far as I’m concerned Wiltshire is ‘West Country’ not ‘South’.
    I’ve relatives who retired there (from London) and always refer to it as being west country…

  • upp

    You say “yes,this year has 14full time referees unlike other European leagues. Are you saying;
    1. The other epl refs are part time?
    2. The refs listed on other league websites are only full time refs and only the epl lists part time refs on its website?
    Or maybe you could compare the number of matches each ref in Germany, French, Spanish, Scottish etc leagues did.
    Note I’m not saying you are wrong, I’m just saying I believe that’s the only way you can conclusively say the pgmol do their things differently.

  • serge

    Andy Mac
    I live in Weston-super-Mare, which is a good few miles further West than Wilts, but it’s still in the Southern half of England, although people don’t go around saying they’re from the South, generally we think South West.
    The rule of thumb applied on here is referees from Merseyside, Cheshire,Lancs areas (NW) are from the North as are those from County Durham, Northumberland (NE). They’re all from the North.
    What would you call refs from Clacton or Margate?
    It all gets a bit confusing doesn’t it?
    But I do understand the frustration of people who cannot understand the lack of officials from London.

  • serge


    As you can see there’s a certain amount of PK support on this blog, and for the life of me I can’t see how it’s justified, although Jerry puts up a decent argument.
    I’ve decided it’s more prudent to leave them wallowing in their misguided hero worship.
    It’s also a good laugh too.

  • serge

    Andy Mac

    I also have a home in Northern France, and you should witness how territorial the French are.

  • Menace

    Proud kev – I enjoyed your posts & your comments. You are a true gooner & Asenal supporter. You are missed.

    serge – somebody summed you up as a tool. Nuff said!

  • Andy Mack

    serge, Whilst I have fun calling Sunderland ‘norf’ my mate from there is adamant that it’s North East and very distinctly different from ‘North’ let alone the North West.
    Of course you can be pedantic about it so I’ll just say I’m still uncomfortable that there are no refs from the south, south east or east Anglia, although there are a couple from the west country.

  • Andy Mack

    upp, a very quick search suggests that there are 30 refs in Serie A, 22 in Ligue 1 and only 20 in La Liga. Although it’s a bit difficult to be thorough I think that also includes cup games as well. However the ref in La Liga with the lowest number of games is 12 including 2 cup games, so only 10 Liga games which is a few more than 5 of our part time refs. I didn’t check any of the other leagues as I don’t think any of them have 20 teams in their top league so they aren’t really comparable.

  • Jerry

    If you clicked on the link that I included, it clearly states that Tierney and Attwell are being promoted to the Select Group for next season. Select Group referees get full time PGMO contracts also mentioned in that link in regards to the Select Group 2 that will be started next season for Championship matches.

    If you are not aware of the Select Group Officials, please do a google search for Premier League Select Group referees and you can learn more from the premier league webpage.

    That is the title of the refs that primarily do PL matches.

    The other leagues have similar select groups of 19 or so refs and usually a few refs that do only a few games during the year for trials to gain promotion for the next season (similar to what Tierney and Attwell did this year).

    If Tierney and Attwell were not in the Select Group for this season, it’s not practical to consider refs that have done fewer matches than them, to be considered full time (that’s a total of 5/19 refs) that have not been full time this season.

    You can call me an apologists or whatever else you want, but at least I’m not talking from upp the wrong end, and waiting like sheep for the media or someone else to tell me what to think.

    I provided the details for you about the refs and why only 14 are considered full time, if you don’t want to believe the numbers right in front of your eyes, that’s a personal issue.

  • Jerry

    If you clicked on the link that I included, it clearly states that Tierney and Attwell are being promoted to the Select Group for next season. Select Group referees get full time PGMO contracts also mentioned in that link in regards to the Select Group 2 that will be started next season for Championship matches.

    If you are not aware of the Select Group Officials, please do a google search for Premier League Select Group referees and you can learn more from the premier league webpage.

    That is the title of the refs that primarily do PL matches.

    The other leagues have similar select groups of 19 or so refs and usually a few refs that do only a few games during the year for trials to gain promotion for the next season (similar to what Tierney and Attwell did this year).

    If Tierney and Attwell were not in the Select Group for this season, it’s not practical to consider refs that have done fewer matches than them, to be considered full time (that’s a total of 5/19 refs) that have not been full time this season.

    You can call me an apologists or whatever else you want, but at least I’m not talking from upp the wrong end, and waiting like sheep for the media or someone else to tell me what to think.

    I provided the details for you about the refs and why only 14 are considered full time, if you don’t want to believe the numbers right in front of your eyes, that’s a personal issue.

  • Andy Mack

    Sorry, I should have added this link in case you wanted to check properly ;

  • upp

    Let me put it simply, do you have evidence that all the refs listed in the Spanish, French, Italian, German etc league sites are select group? If you don’t, how can you convince anyone that the pgmo is different? And please any assertion you make ought to be backed up with a credible source. Thanks

  • Al

    AKBs, like Arsenal players, are finding there’s no room for error. We see players from other teams kicking, tripping, elbowing or whatever else, and still they stay on the pitch (Andy Carroll being the most recent example). It barely gets a mention in the media, if at all. But should an Arsenal player commit a simple offence such as a shirt tug and not get punished for it, there is a huge uproar up and down the land, and the ref might even get ‘punished’ for it. The Coq incident is a good example of this in recent times. But one that probably stands out for me was the incident involving Sagna and Matt Jarvis when we played w/ham at the end of 2013/14 season. Sagna made very minimal contact and Jarvis stayed on his feet, but what follows in the media was staggering. Jarvis was blasted all round for not diving, please note they were unashamedly using the words ‘not diving’, coz that’s what it would have been; the contact was that minimal. G Neville even sarcastically said Jarvis would get a pat on the back from his nan when he got home, instead of winning his team a penalty. The point here is the whole nation united to condone one of the worst things blighting our game; diving, simply because it would have undone Arsenal. It was OK to dive, so long as it’s against Arsenal.

    Now on Untold regular positive contributors are targeted should they be deemed to have made an error, such as the attacks against PK. I think this is designed to hound out the AKBs, one less AKB posting here the better for them. Walter has been attacked quite repeatedly as well, people trying to discredit his reviews despite not offering any shred of evidence to suggest otherwise. I remember one WOB taking issue with the way Walter described the direction of Monreal’s foot was pointing in, or something to that effect, in the Arsenal-Leicester review, an insinuation that Walter had got it wrong therefore his (and Usama’s) meticulous ref review could not be trusted or relied on. Never mind there was 20+ other incidents that were reported on in the review that were indisputable, but the individual chose to pick that one tiny debatable issue as evidence to discredit the whole report.

    I see attacks on PK’s credibility as NOT attacks on PK the person, but rather as attacks on UA and everything it stands for. Maybe the whole idea is to isolate Tony in the end? I don’t know. But what is clear is these individuals are only here to try and discredit the work being done on this site. I doubt very much they go and dispute any errors or inaccuracies made on the other anti-Wenger boards, despite those boards getting it wrong more often; I don’t visit them myself but very much doubt they do any evidence-based reporting as we see here on UA (in fact I have not seen any publications in the mainstream media do this, with the result that it’s all a matter of one’s opinion in the end). So yes, these individuals come here to look for any slightest inaccuracy, mistake or debatable point to discredit the work being done here, while in the process reject the swathes of indisputable evidence available. Their aim? To discredit Untold.

  • Jerry


    Andy Mack, already did at 1211. If you want to keep claiming the numbers are the same that’s your choice.

    I’ve already showed that two of the officials are not on the select group so no full time contract. Put simply, the ones that worked 5/33 match weeks, worked 15% of their available work days. Please let me know what other jobs where you can only work 15% of the time and be considered full time that’s about 25 hours a week instead of the usual 40 hour work weeks.

  • upp

    Perhaps I can try to put it in a different way one Last time. The official epl website puts the number of refs it has as 19 (full time or part time it doesn’t differentiate) I’m willing to bet the other league sites list their numbers of refs too, no differentiation into full time/part time. But if you want to make that differentiation based on the number of games done then be ready to be surprised, because from soccer base. Com (the site Andy mack referenced) you can see major disproportion in the number of matches done by referees in many leagues eg belgian jupiler league has a ref doing 29 matches, others doing 4,7,8. French ligue 1 has some doing 23 others doing 7,10,12. Dutch eredivise has some doing 30, 26 others doing 1, 8, 12. German bundesliga have some doing 22,26 others doing 3, 5,6. Italian serie a has some doing 23,25 others 1,2,2,2,3,3,3,3. Only the Spanish language Liga seems balanced, even then the numbers range between 13-30.
    I think I’d rest my case now

  • Jerry

    I’m glad you’re resting your case. If you looked at what I said above, it actually explains what you said, how some leagues have officials doing trials like Germany doing 1-4 games, but more officials doing a higher number of games than just 14 officials like the EPL. I’m sure everything will be explained in due time.