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Dean Did It Again. We present the proof of his “errors”

By Walter Broeckx

In their haste to blame Wenger for:

1. Welbeck missing a first chance (AWshould have bought Falcao instead of Welbeck

2. Welbeck missing another header seconds later (see it’s AW his fault should have bought….

3. Welbeck shooting to weak (see AW should have….)

4. Jack Wilshere missing the easiest of chances by shooting soft and poorly at De Gea (all Wenger’s fault as he is the one that should have taught Wilshere to shoot)

5. Jack Wilshere instead of shooting should have passed the ball to Alexis for a simple tap in (all Wenger’s fault as he wants to have them walk the ball into the net…oh wait a minute.. Jack took a shot… oh well still Wenger’is fault)

6. Missing good chance after good chance in the whole match (of course that is Wenger’s fault, they probably have been practising  the defence for 14 days..oh that’s right most players were out with their national team… still Wenger’s fault though…)

7. Utd scoring from an offside, a foul and from an unlucky bounce of the leg of the fouled Gibbs. (All Wenger’s fault that Gibbs bumped in to Szczesny because he is clueless and well no matter what it is Wenger’s fault….)

8.   I could go on but I think most people (although clearly not all readers) got the idea after point one.

Some readers who say we never blame Wenger can be satisfied.

Okay, for the regular Untold readers, you will by now know that I am doing some mocking of the way some react after each defeat. In a way Arsenal losing a match is not that bad. Of course it IS bad but we are playing football. Football is a sport and in each sport you can win…or you can taste defeat. It is like that. It is like the way the globe is turning round its axis and we will see a day after each night. Winning and losing is part of football like day and night is part of our life.

So losing is not nice but I can stand losing. It’s sour but part of being a player and part of being a supporter.

But what is hard to take and makes a defeat really annoying is the hysteria that we see whenever we lose or even drop points.

What also is a given is the fact that even when refs cost us points this is no excuse. No in their haste to blame Wenger for each dropped point they refuse that we would even talk about it.

All sorts of excuses are handed out. When in my first article about the match I wrote about the foul on Gibbs and the offside from Fellaini. No, NO, NO they said. I was wrong. And why was I wrong? Because the media didn’t report it. Sorry but since when are the media telling us how things have happened? And if you really believe the media… then I feel sorry for you.

NO, NO, NO they shouted at me. I was wrong because…. Wenger didn’t talk about it in his post match conference. Otherwise they rubbish each word Wenger speaks but now the fact he didn’t mention it, his words are sacred religion.

But let me now say one thing to you who said I was wrong. I was right. Of course I was right. Because I don’t listen to the media. OK,  I must admit I did listen to a foreign match reporter. One of the same country as Fellaini and he was 100% sure: the first Manchester United goal shouldn’t have counted.  But to be honest I didn’t need his words for that.

No I don’t let the media dictate what I have to think. I don’t let other fans dictate what I should think. Because I just trust my own judgement as a ref above that of the pundits. And I trust my own judgement above that of Wenger when it comes to referee decisions.

The problem was however to get the message over to those suffering from tunnel vision. I have the images on my hard disk recorder at home but that isn’t connected to the internet.  But now thanks to 7amkickoff I got a little clip of the incident.

And I was right. And the correspondents who told me I was deluded and just defended Wenger, you were wrong. No you don’t need to apologise to me. But what you do have to do is look at this little clip. HERE IT IS, MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND. Go and watch the clip and then come back. And if you really didn’t see Fellaini pushing Gibbs with both arms in his back….. then my goodness you really must dash to the eye specialist immediately. I think you suffer from blindness.

But for those who can see now you can tell me what the headline is saying. DDIA!

Dean Did It Again!

Once again a poor Dean decision cost us the match. Because it was just like in the Burnley match. You knew that once we could score we would win this match. And then Dean did his usual trick. Ignoring an offside (mistake by the assistant) and then his trick once again was ignoring a blatant push on a defender. An Arsenal defender of course.

We all know that that goal turned the match upside down. And it not only cost us a goal but also a forced substitution. But hey let’s ignore the blatant “mistake” from Dean once again against Arsenal. After all, we have some Wenger bashing to do.

And I know we missed too many chances before and after that. But that is no excuse for Dean for not doing his job. Or come to think of it…… was he “doing his job”? Again? Us missing chances have nothing to do with Dean doing his dirty tricks again. And as predicted what he would do before the match.

And let us add another thing. We all know that Dean was the ref when Eduardo got assaulted and his career at the top was over. Well just look at this tackle from last weekend.  But don’t do it when you have just eaten.

Wilshere being assaulted

 

Another assault on an Arsenal player. Look at his foot! Completely turned over because of the late tackle. And what did Dean do? Nothing. No foul, no card…..nothing. Absolutely nothing.  You can say it again….. DDIA! Dean Did It Again.

Seriously, what is the matter with Dean? This is the second time  that when he is around one of our players could have his career ended. And this time…. he did nothing. Completely f*cking nothing.

Yep, let’s blame Wenger a bit more shall we… and ignore the incompetent and biased Dean once again. He should never be allowed to come close to an Arsenal team for the rest of his referee career.

————————-

The books

135 comments to Dean Did It Again. We present the proof of his “errors”

  • Abhishek Kumar

    We know something for sure.. Dean Will Do It Again.. So lets be prepared

  • Will

    Let’s be honest though, the goal should not have mattered. If we had our shooting boots on, we should have been 3 or 4 up by then and out of sight.

  • bob smith

    Thank goodness for your breath of sanity. The nature of the beast means that the average supporter is only interested in winning, anything less and you start baying for the head of the manager.
    Every idiot blames Arsene for not replacing Patrick Viera. The same fools would have blamed Pope Julius for not replacing Michaelangelo. Do they not think he aches like the rest of us after a result like last Saturday ?. Lets get Dien on board then Dean will be irrelevant.

  • Neil S

    Hopefully we won’t have to suffer Dean too many times again, I have it from a sound source that this will be his last season as a premiership referee. Dean and Arsenal is bad news, Dean with Arsenal v. Mancs, is never going to work.

  • Mick

    For goodness sake Will, did you not notice that Walter said precisely that in his article…..
    ‘And I know we missed too many chances before and after that.’
    And Abhishek Kumar can you tell us how we should have ‘prepared’ for the two events Walter describes.

  • Kevin Weaver

    My heart always sinks a bit when I see that Mike Dean is playing against us, but on this occasion I didn’t think he was too bad. True, there was a foul on Gibbs, but if Szczesny was a top goalkeeper, Gibbs would have been able to leave it to him to sort out the cross and not been in a place to be pushed. Once Szczesny decided to come he should have made the ball his own and a little shove shouldn’t have had any effect.
    On the Wilshere assault, had Dean done his job, Jack would have already had his bath for the incident with Fellaini.
    Is Wenger to blame, yes, he’s either briefing the players wrongly or they’re not doing what they are told, which is it? Either way, he’s earning £8m a year, and it’s not working. Methinks it’s time for a change at the top.

  • Temitope

    And i knw,there are some Arsenal fans that knows that losing is part of football and that some premier league ref are against Arsenal and Arsene Wenger.
    Thank God for you guyz @walter and his 2nd.

  • apo Armani

    Well written Walter!!

    Fellaini is a dirtbag END OF!

    Has the jury come out on the extent of Jacks’ injury?? From this image, I wouldn’t be surprised if he is OUT for months!

    Yes and people will argue that we should have put the game beyond reach by that time, however with Dean as the 12th man for Manure…I put my money on him making sure that Manure came back even if we were 4-0 up!!!!

    Unless this blatant cheating/bias against us stops…we will:

    a/ have a minimum of a truly serious injury before the season is over
    b/ be out of CL qualification spots

    That will make many of these IDIOTS happy!!

  • gw

    If Dean was doing his job to destroy arsenals chances why didn’t he send off wilshere?

    It would have been entirely acceptable in modern football to show a red card for pushing your head into someone’s face but he didn’t?

    Strange

  • apo Armani

    @gw

    Go a-head (punt intended) and take a close look at how the MOP-HEAD (Fellaini) makes FIRST attempt to head-butt Jack!!!!

    The lamppost of an idiot just goes over Jacks’ head!!!

    https://vine.co/v/OJlm1eIV2q0

  • apo Armani

    @gw…and perhaps you can’t see this either…can you??

    https://vine.co/search/Tackle+on+Wilshere

  • Th14thesecond

    Could not have said it any better. I love this site. It’s becoming one of the last safe havens on the internet for a true Gooner to read about his/her club. Great work. I now read this website more than Football365 & Arseblog who were my homepages for years. Thanks Walter.

  • john

    “Jack Wilshere turned his ankle following a tackle by …” is how the Guardian reported the deliberate late assault, as if to suggest that it was a self-inflicted injury. (in fairness it did mention the offside Fellaini push on Gibbs, but did not see fit to add that this was a decisive moment, since that would have weakened its anti-Arsenal narrative.

    Note also that Sky did not show repeated play-backs of the foul.

    Amy Lawrence has produced another load of crap lazy journalism today, in another example of the anti-Wenger media campaign.

    Walter, your article is clear, conclusive and most welcome. Pity that more of our fans prefer to listen to the media rather than use their own eyes.

  • Nicky

    If we aren’t careful we are going to be consumed with the paranoia surrounding our great Club at the moment.
    Poor results due to players not performing.
    Biased or incompetent refereeing.
    Usmanov sniping at Board policy.
    Increasing criticism of Arsene Wenger by supporters.
    Very little good appears to be spread about.
    There is, however, a bright side.
    Our sick list is diminishing.
    The January Transfer Window is near at hand.
    Our newbies are steadily bonding with their colleagues.
    Our second string players are nearing first team status.
    The team will regain confidence with just one game when all will go well.
    Let us now give 100% support to team and Manager alike and judge results and progress next May….not now. 😉

  • apo Armani

    And finally ‘gw’ if you going to insist that Jack should have seen red, then Mop-head should have too; for attempting to head-butt and provoking…

  • Andrew Crawshaw

    I am willing to admit I made a mistake in my referee preview – Mike Dean is neither a Sardine or a Pilchard! He is a f…..g cheat! The sooner we are saved from his poison the better.
    Walter, were either of the foul on Wilshere (I think) or the handball in the second half penalties? I thought that they should have been. I await the full review for answers.

  • apo Armani

    @Nicky
    November 25, 2014 at 9:14 am

    Whilst I understand that you are saying what you are with a positive spin – I will disagree with “consumed with the paranoia”.

    I don’t think any of our fears are irrational or not based on facts, with full blown images/statistics as proof.

    Paranoia would have been correct if we were sitting here game after game imagining that this blatant Bias and cheating were occurring – unfortunately though its not the case!!!

    “Poor results due to players not performing” – no one will argue with that statement, but its not exclusively been only poor performances by our players…the officials have had a BIG SAY in the “poor results”.

  • AB

    Wiltshere foul I agree , but Fellaini no Gibbs is running straight into Schz hands do not push, I wish we could ask the player .

  • Pastille

    Oh dear oh dear. You call the criticism of Wenger myopic and yet you pull out issues within a single game and worst of all blame the ref to justify Wenger’s failings. As someone pointed out above, Szczesny should have been stronger when he came out for the first goal, regardless of what Fellaini did. And the tackle on Wilshere? Again, if Dean had been ‘doing his job’ Wilshere would not have even been on the pitch – you can’t have it all ways.

    And let’s be honest, the criticism of Wenger is not solely based on the Man Utd result. It’s based on seeing the same problems being witnessed again and again. You can blame the players, and given the success some of them have had, they should doubtless be doing better, but the capitulation against Anderlecht; the capitulation against Swansea; the lack of killer instinct and subsequent suicidal play against Man Utd, are just the most recent (and raw), examples of issues that have been clear to most people for the last 5+ years and are, without doubt, failings of Wenger. Whether that’s training, tactics, transfers, back-room team or something else. Let’s not forget that Wenger says he’s responsible for everything at the club.

    That approach is great when it’s all going well, but now it seems it’s coming back to bite him in the a*se.

  • apo Armani

    @AB

    and I quote Walter “And if you really didn’t see Fellaini pushing Gibbs with both arms in his back….. then my goodness you really must dash to the eye specialist immediately. I think you suffer from blindness.”

  • Will

    This is a great site and I agree with 99% of what’s said on here but let’s call a potato a potato. Forget the ref, offside goals and fouls. we should have won that game at a canter and that is down to the players and no one else.

  • Mistamonn

    Wenger wasn’t to blame for the poor finishing by Wilshere and Welbeck. Wenger wasn’t to blame for the foul on Gibbs which resulted in the own goal. But Wenger is to blame for the way the team defends. Per was a marauding CB. He was always way up field. He did it several times and was just lucky to be caught out just the one time. Other manager would have stood up to shout instructions to his defenders not to push up too high up field. Wenger did not. Same defensive errors cost us in three consecutive games. Either Wenger is not attempting to rectify that particular problem, or the players are not listening to him. Personally i think its the former because if your players are not doing what you ask them to do, why keep them in the starting 11? Either way Wenger has to take the blame for the horrendous defending.I agree with Usmanov when he said in his interview with CNBC, “you can only correct your mistakes when you accept you have made one”. Strikers are meant to score goals. Midfielders are meant to dictate the flow of the game. Defenders are meant to, well…DEFEND. Remember Wenger’s words? “We attack and defend as a team”. I tend to disagree with that. Attackers (Strikers and attacking midfielders) should attack, while defenders (especially Center backs)should ONLY think about defending. Yeah they can go up field for a corner, but that should be it. Goals will win you games but a solid Defence wins titles.

  • Ashwin Gunner

    Mr Walter

    well. i agree that Man u match, referee did make errors. it should had been a straight red for foul on Wilshere.

    The off side, was very tight. so i would give 50-50 on that. The push, well. yea. Referee was at fault there too. but this is for the last match right.

    What about swansea match. why did we lose it. What about Galasatary. why did we blow up a 3 goal lead to a young, inexperienced team

    Ramsey is not in form. Still he gets selected for god konws what reason.
    Per has been pathetic of late. He was very much instrumental in all our losses and blowing up our leads. but still he gets selected. what is the selection policy at Arsenal. Why wasnt video analysis done before the swansea game to see how pacey their wings are. Why is Chambers playing at CB and Bellerin who actually did a fantastic job in UCl playing at RB. was it not a tactical error to continue playing chambers on RB when he was getting mauled. why wasnt the formation changed. why do players give up so easily when we go a goal down. why isnt there a motivator in the team. why wasnt a CB bought even after 2 years of Song departing. Why wasnt; a CB brought in when Klos’s injury was known way back in February. Why blame the squad that it is thin, When Wenger had all the time in the world to get decent player. Why doesn;t Wenger rotate. Whey is Rosicky let to Rot. Why is Poldi let to rot. Why is Campbell let to rot…

    answers??

  • Charlie

    There was no push on Gibbs. Stop making excuses. It was a defensive shambles with nobody to blame but Sczesney and Gibbs. I hate this attitude of refusing to accept blame where it’s due. That is disgraceful at this level, the keeper has to shout and claim the ball. Schoolboy stuff. If he wasn’t injured he should still have been dropped for that error.

  • apo Armani

    “Galasatary. why did we blow up a 3 goal lead ”

    hahahahahaha love it when all the fact are in 🙂 🙂

  • Ashwin Gunner

    Apo

    Oh sorry. Anderlecht .. 🙂

    I am getting old..

  • Charlie

    Sorry but I am speaking up for the Arsenal forward players when I say they have been hopelessly let down by the defenders yet again. If I was Sanchez, Wilshere or Ox in that game I would have been furious at the entire defence and in at least half of the fixtures this season tbh. It’s farcical stuff, they are playing like amateurs. Arteta is right when he says it was the best performance of the season, it was, but again dreadful defending meant all that great attacking play counted for nothing. It’s not all about Koscielny missing either, he was well below his best before getting injured. I don’t get it, the defence has just lost it. Bouldy must be at his wits end the poor bloke. Must be wishing he had the likes of Adams, Dixon and Winterburn to coach.

  • Alex

    I enjoy reading your article but not this one.

    As good as you have defended your point in the Fellaini push and blamed the ref please man up and prove me wrong why Willshere stayed on the pitch after his blatan assault on the same you pointing fingers.

    I understand fully the way that Dean crap referee.In all honesty I didn’t feel aggravated this time . Maybe I raise the bar in advance.

    The first goal that we conceded it was down to the keeper he bombed out believing to catch ball when there was no need as Gibbs would have dealt properly.

    It reminded me the same mistake he did at the Carling cup and he cost as a trophy.

    Schezny knew what he has done a big farce and faked the injury. He cost as a goal and an important substitution.
    Schezny faked the injury probably gambling that Dean will feel sorry for him.Either way while I agree with the push there is no way tha our goalie should act the way he did.

    Please show us a convincing fall that can cause an injury that needed substitution.

    Crap goal keeping and crap finishes cost as the game.And who is in charge of all this ???

    Yes the manager all the way he choose the players, tactics (sorry I mean one tactic gung ho ) etc…

  • dave-o

    Its so true, why do we alway blame the manager. This was a game we lost but we played very well, best Ive have seen this year so far. Its just a shame we didnt score in the first half with all the pressure. If they play like this every week, I dont mind at all.
    Hopefully they will start to gel and will build on this performance.

  • Va Cong

    Do you have photos of the first goal anyone?
    I missed the match in Malaysia

  • Charlie

    Agreed up until the last line Alex. How can you blame the manager for costing us the game with a goalkeeping error apart from saying he never should have signed him. The backup keeper is injured too so it wasn’t as if he had a choice but to play him. As for the hung-ho defending Arsene doesn’t condone it and once the game has started detailed organisation has to come from the players. When you have both full backs ahead of the ball and the manager shouts out “oi get back what the **** do you think you’re doing ?” there’s a very good chance that in the thick of the action that player won’t hear the instruction. The players need to be responsible for their positioning.

  • 4evered

    apo Armani
    November 25, 2014 at 9:04 am
    @gw

    Go a-head (punt intended) and take a close look at how the MOP-HEAD (Fellaini) makes FIRST attempt to head-butt Jack!!!!

    The lamppost of an idiot just goes over Jacks’ head!!!

    https://vine.co/v/OJlm1eIV2q0

    Well done you just destroyed walters carefully constructed illusion that dean (the twat) lost us that game – I had not seen that before as i was at the other end of the ground but how did dean not send Jack off for that ?

  • WalterBroeckx

    AB, Fellaini clearly moves his hands forwards in to the back of Gibbs. If I move my arms forward in that way it is a push. And it is not allowed.

  • If you really want to know, there should have been a penalty for the Shaw foul on Wilshere. But given that there wasn’t, Wilshere should have scored, but he didn’t.

    And because of those two things, Jack lost his composure and got involved with Fellaini, which should have seen him sent off. But he wasn’t, which then created the situation where Jack got injured from a foul that should have seen a scoring chance given in front of the goal and a yellow card to the United player. and almost immediately from that injury came the Fellaini foul which led to the collision which led to the goal and another forced change. Etc, etc.

    Get the first major decision right, and you have a better chance of everything else working out properly.

    Or did it all really start when Jem broke his arm?

  • apo Armani

    @4evered
    November 25, 2014 at 11:03 am

    I think you are obviously not wanting to SEE what I am pointing out (Mop-Heads’) initial ATTACK on Jack – and opting to put your SPIN ON IT. Good try!!! Didn’t work!!

  • bjtgooner

    Good article Walter and you are correct to highlight the late tackle on Wilshere as well as the foul by the thug Fellaini on Gibbs.

    There was no doubt that Szczesny was injured – only a twit would say otherwise – but with the goalkeeper injured should play have continued? (I know play should already have been stopped some seconds earlier for the Fellaini off side and subsequent foul).

    Fellaini held Mertesacker at least twice during Arsenal corners – I look forward to the full ref review.

    Walter, at a time when the internet and media are full of vile anti Arsenal and and anti Wenger rubbish, do we have to tolerate the latest group of AAAA idiots here – who do nothing but disrupt any chance of a sensible debate amongst the genuine fans?

  • Cheadle

    I enjoy your articles because they are free from the hysterical babble we read almost everywhere when Arsenal lose.

    Despite close to 2 decades of uninterrupted top four/CL placings, some fans believe we are headed for doom every time we lose. Dortmund is 16th on their league table and have just 11 points from 12 games that’s like 0.9pts per game and most people believe they will wipe us off the planet.

    The Wilshere tackle looks really really bad. How much more can this kid take before..(won’t say it!!) I just wish he could introduce some evasive skills into his play like Messi for self preservation. Messi would be a cripple without those skills.

    Wilshere is an England gem playing in England he should be treated like royalty, protected by the refs. Arsenal will suffer but England will suffer even more if people like Dean continue their atrocities against us. Fellaini is beginning to fancy himself as Man United’s new hard man who can shove people around and go unpunished. The refs have to put a stop to this.

    And before I forget.. Wenger! yes Wenger poor tired old Wenger what can he do now He could gamble, manage or engineer his way out!

  • Charlie

    Walter I really don’t think that the contact from Fellaini changed the course of events at all and that contact was no more than happens at any set piece. Gibbs was heading for a collision with Szczesny from the moment he decided to go for the header and in an incident like that it is always up to the keeper to shout out and claim the ball. The ref was probably in favour of United but it was Arsenal’s defenders who caused the result to end the way it did. Yes there were some finishes which could have been better but the attacking players deserve credit anyway. The defenders deserve no credit.

  • Nicky

    @ apo Armani,
    If you re-read the first four sentences of my comment, they illustrate what I mean by paranoia.
    We have to stop this continual carping at players and Manager, however honestly felt.
    We cannot control what is going on at Colney and the Emirates by way of tactics and coaching and therefore must give 100% support and trust that performances will improve…..they invariably do.
    I can only ask for your patience and faith until the season’s end, when all will be revealed.

  • AB

    Look we’re all gutted nobody more than AW but we lost a game we really should have won, let’s see what the next two games bring and if we carry on defensively like this then even bent refs in our favour won’t help

  • Nicky

    @ Cheadle,
    “hysterical babble”. A perfect description. I must remember to use it in commenting on a game we lost but were clearly the better side.

  • apo Armani

    @bjtgooner
    November 25, 2014 at 11:30 am

    “Walter, at a time when the internet and media are full of vile anti Arsenal and and anti Wenger rubbish, do we have to tolerate the latest group of AAAA idiots here – who do nothing but disrupt any chance of a sensible debate amongst the genuine fans?”

    Can I second that? 🙂

  • Charlie

    bjtgooner what you get here is not debate, it is one-sided “everyone to blame for defeat but Arsenal” nonsense. If a team has 17 points from 12 games that is not all due to bad luck and bad decisions from referees. I make mistakes and if I do I accept it, learn from it and move on, I don’t search for someone or something else to blame. Arsenal played brilliantly and shot themselves in the foot, twice. It happens, it’s not going to stop me supporting them and saying so doesn’t make me less of a supporter.

  • Tom

    Walter
    Just a couple of quick points.

    If you really wanted, or were capable of soberly analyzing the entire game by Arsenal players, the manager and the referee , you would’ve been able to find faults and mistakes with each party.

    Players let the manager , the fans and themselves down by not choosing the right option when it mattered.

    Mike Dean made mistakes both ways during the game , and you are well within your right to point them out. Although the severity of the push by Fellaini is in my opinion somewhat exaggerated , hence the lack of any complaining from Gibbs on that play.

    Also , Fellaini was so marginally offside on that play, that I must wonder if any linesman could’ve made that call.
    Aren’t referees in Belgium instructed to give advantage to the attackers when it’s this close?
    I know for a fact , referees in Polish Extraklasa( Polish top league) are instructed to do just that.

    But here’s my most important question to you. When you see Mertesacker dribble the ball up the pitch on 62nd minute and again a few minutes later, and takes up a position just outside of Man U penalty area, does a question ‘ what is he doing ‘ ever cross your mind?

    I mean, Per is pretty good on the ball , but a playmaker? , really?

    And if you see that happening with half an hour left on the clock and down by one unlucky goal , how on earth can Arsen Wenger not instruct him to keep the shape and stay back?

    There are some posters on here who have flat out come out and said;
    ‘Arsen Wenger gets so much unfair criticism from the media that they refuse to ever criticize him , no matter what. ‘

    I respect that. It’s an honest admission of one’s position, but then again they don’t do game reports, unlike you.

  • Alex

    @ Charlie
    I am not expecting at his age mr.Wenger his shouts to be heard among all that noise.
    But at least can can pull by his ears that damn thst is sitting next to him.

    That bloody Bold man is just a dick head sitting dping nothing.

    Remember the Mourinho incident ?
    Don’t you think this man given his physicality to jump at that moron Morinho ?

    What id he doing there ?
    I am sorry it is all about management me think.

    In the other note I would like to mention that I disagreed in his management but I cannot pass by praising him for his charity toward Gazza.

    @untold in general I didn’t see anything mentioned in this regard.Surprised.

  • Samuel Akinsola Adebosin

    Can we all just put away those disappointments out of our minds and get up from where we fell into? Instead of to be remaining stagnant on where we fell in, we should get up right now and start going home. Ref Dean has done his escapades, the Gunners have committed their blunders, the boss is adamant to do the needful and the Gooners have sharpened their axes looking for a scapegoat’s head to pieces. But I SamuelAkinsolaAdebosin has never given up on, on a fight until the fight is finally over. The Gunners are still in contention for the Barclays Premier League (BPL) title and the Champions League giant trophy. And are still in their preparedness to defend the FA Cup as far as I know. Once there is sill life, there is still a hope to survive. If there is still the time, there is still time to get over the huddles. And if there is faith and belief, the impossible can miraculously become possible. Arsenal with their 17 BPL points so far can still reach the promised land if they have the faith and the requisite belief for getting there. If they do, let them claim it by releasing an incredible onslaught on their remaining 26 BPL games to collect some 73 points out of the 26 games to win the 2014 BPL with 90 points. Write it down, Chelsea will eventually finish 3rd on the final table standings. What the Gunners need now, is to get their boss down to give them their needs for them to have a better chance of finally topping the table on the final day of the battles. I pray the boss will yield to his Gunners cries and wipe their faces by providing them with their requests. We have been flogging the Gunners and attempting to rubbish the boss for their unacceptable disappointments disappointing us by caving-in cheaply to their enemies in battles. Since we have registered our strong protest to them to put a permanent end to this their unchallant behaviours. I think it’s about time we allow them have some respite to have succour to enabled to reinvigorate and come back fully charged, and arm themselves with the latest high tech armo. And demolish the Dortmounds and send them quickly packing the bags to vacate the Emirates Stadium on Wednesday night.

  • Mick

    @bjtgooner
    ‘Walter, at a time when the internet and media are full of vile anti Arsenal and and anti Wenger rubbish, do we have to tolerate the latest group of AAAA idiots here – who do nothing but disrupt any chance of a sensible debate amongst the genuine fans?’
    Totally and absolutely agree, the AAA morons are taking the site over and are being allowed to do so, its time to fight back. The regular contributors are commenting less and less, doomers more and more, we may just as well go read Le Grove as far as the majority of comments are concerned. Enough is enough, ban the trolls and their apologists, otherwise Untold will lose its traditional and regular support and along with them its identity.

  • khitb77

    “Dean Did It Again!

    Once again a poor Dean decision cost us the match.”

    Was Dean’s mistake before or after he missed Wilshere squaring up to Fellani and put his head to Fellani’s chin? Which is usually a red card offence!

    Dean didn’t cost us the game, it was a shocking lack of quality cover in defence and shambolic tactics that as usual costs us.

    I don’t blame the players for missing chances to win the game because no one scores all the time. Ronaldo and Messi have off days in front of goal and none of our players are at their standard. As long as the players give their all then I am satisfied with their contribution.

    What was Wenger’s fault is not signing sufficient quality players to mean that by November we are not dead and buried in the title race and that we are now facing an uphill struggle to maintain 4th place in the league.

    Also how can continue to play in such a manner that means we get hit on the counter attack, game after game, season after season? How many times does this need to happen for Wenger to realise that his tactics and our style of play don’t work against the top sides? Look at our record against Chelsea, Man City or Man Utd over the past few seasons. These sides know how to beat us and thanks to his stubborn refusal to adapt our play so does everyone in Europe!

    You cannot defend the indefensible.

  • Pete

    Sigh. Here we go again.

    It is always a mystery to me why, whenever anything goes wrong, the finger-pointing starts, the blame game starts. All that this will achieve is make a bad situation worse.

    The club, the players, the fans need to stick together and work through this.

    Things WILL improve when/if the injury situation improves. We still won’t win every match but we will win significantly more. That is what always happens – at all clubs!

    Against MU we were missing Koscielny, Debuchy, Ozil, Giroud (apart from a few minutes) and Walcott. All first choice players. And some of the reserves are injured too. Now Szcz and Wilshere are out too. Unclear for how long.

    Yes Wenger has made some mistakes – as have we all – but, I will say it again, the biggest problem at Arsenal, by far, is with the injuries. I think Wenger does have to bear some criticism for this continuing situation.

    Having said that I wonder if Forsythe is starting to have an impact with the unexpectedly early return from injury of Giroud? Apparently Debuchy is ahead of schedule too. A welcome change!

  • Will

    @Mick, I am in no way an AAA but to say ban anyone who has a different opinion than you is stupid.

  • WalterBroeckx

    If I’m not mistaken it was Fellaini who squared up to Wilshere who first was walking away

  • Northern Nuge

    Walter, sorry this is slightly off topic, but just came across the following story on Sky Sports football website. It links to videos and commentary taken from Howard Webb’s appearance on Monday Night Football talking about what is required to referee in the Premier League. Interesting snapshot near the bottom of correct offside decisions per season, though I warn you that you may need to sit down before reading it, though I guarantee you will not be surprised by what you see. Hope you find it interesting. (http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11096/9578526/howard-webb-explains-controversial-refereeing-decisions-on-monday-night-football)

  • Will

    Walkter, you are correct, Jack was about to have a pop at Dean when Fellaini chased Jack aggressively.

  • apo Armani

    If in doubt about where you stand, this may help you realize WHERE YOU ARE:

    Untold Arsenal: Arsenal News; Supporting the club, the players and the manager.

  • Gouresh

    Well, Jack the lad was asaulted, and id say what’s new? so now what? we can go on about how had the ref is and present his previous records. if our players are going to get assaulted who should take the blame? id say the club, why? for not doing enough in the press to highlight the situation.
    now as for the result, here’s AW team talk in the dressing room after match based on all the comments we have read the last few days…”AW: Boys, we were great, how we lost? don’t have a clue. WelbecK, Jack, you both were great, just UNLUCKY, not to get the goals. Their goalkeeper had magnets in his gloves and thats the reason the ball was attracted to his gloves. Alexis you were great as a well, unlucky. Santi, hard luck for not able to make those assists. BFG and Monreal, unlucky again, for getting so exposed, but hey i love to attack so good luck to you both the next time. so overall boys, we were unlucky and hard luck to all for loosing, we tried real hard. As usual the refs screwed us, so nothing to worry, as we knew this will happen. hopefully lady luck will be kind on us”. Santi “who’s lady luck boss?” AW ” I dont what she is called in Spain, but its the lovely lady who works her magic, and looks like she is on a holiday. not to worry, she will be back someday and our fortunes will turn. So now, go home to your fancy cars, twitter, FB and stuff, eat well and see you all tomorrow. Good night”.

  • Pete

    Further to previous post, it seems that Koscielny is back in the squad for tomorrow. Wow!

    Credit, if due, to Shad Forsythe.

  • Pete

    NN – 99%+ offside decisions?!!! However good the officials are I would suggest that that is practically unachievable. North Korean election style results!

    PGMO just destroy their own credibility coming up with BS like this.

  • finsbury

    A professional referee doesn’t miss the foul on Wilshere. They can ignore it, but they won’t have missed it. Not a yellow, a poor first touch, but a foul is, well, it is just a foul. Same as it has been since C1850. It’s not hard to call a foul.

    A fan inside the ground might’ve missed it, many did, but not a trained offical with years and years of experience.

    What is the record? two pens for AFC in ten years? If that’s right then there’s a stat to open the eyes.

    It is, what it is.

  • finsbury

    Mike Dean

    He ain’t no Dicke Bird 😉
    More like Hair or Rana. Even more blatant, given the record that all can see.

  • bjtgooner

    @Mick

    You are right, a lot of our regulars are not commenting due to the bile spewed just now on this site by all sort of newcomers, some of whom seem to be refugees from Le Groan.

    This site has for a long time been under one form of attack or another, but recently the AAAA imports have been swarming all over the site – obviously posting in the company of like minded twits on Le Groan is not sufficient for their purpose and general depravity.

  • finsbury

    Oooops: My apologies to the great man who unlike the PGMO was not afraid of “confrontation” with players (or fans): It’s why they all respected him!

    “Dickie Bird”

  • finsbury

    btj
    The bleeb for years has supported agents over clubs when discussing transfers, plenty of evidence in regards to arsenal in particular but other clubs too.
    As others have, you will have also noticed that following the FA Cup victory any semblance of impartiality has disappeared from the Bleeb and others and been replaced with clear bias eand worse. Untold has picked up on this, Telegraph etc.

  • Charlie

    @Mick. I am not and never have been a hater of Arsene Wenger nor have I stated at any point that I want him out. I am just pointing out that to talk about this result totally denying that defensive mistakes were made and were the reasons for the loss is purely and simply delusional. Fact is both the AKB and the AAA deny proper debate by taking unreasonably biased views and denouncing the views of the other as nothing but mad rantings.

  • Charlie

    and may I add that in a lot of cases both views are so biased that they don’t really make sense.

  • Charlie

    Koscielny will come back to steady the ship, a new defender will be bought in January and the team will be back on course.

  • john

    Since Dean apparently failed to see the assault on Jack by Mc.Nair, why isn’t the FA taking retrospective action, based on the clear photographic evidence?

    It is now clear that Jack has got a long-term injury, whilst the perpretator, (who, presumably, is not “that kind of player”, is free to continue playing.)

    The situation, the FA, the PGMOL and the media are all disgusting.

  • gw

    Question Time

    Given this is our worst start (after 13 games) in 32 years who is responsible for this and who needs to address it?

    Is Arsène Wenger responsible for this (doesn’t mean he needs to be fired but if he is responsible is he duty bound as the manager to try and do something about it)

    People call for Arsène to take more responsibility because he rarely if ever seems to accept the faults others can see with the squad or performances.

    I know the stated purpose of untold is supporting the club and manager but is it posible to support someone while expecting more from them?

  • Florian

    The photo (and apo Armani’s video) is sickening. Jack’s ankle must be made of steel and elastic gum, anything else would have snapped. Good career start for that defender, in the great spirit of manure.

    I wonder sometimes if the evil posters here had their ankle injured in their life. I had a small accident at the knee ligaments when skiing, and I could barely walk for more than a month. Imagine the impact of this injury on a pro footballer, who has to run and kick the ball with power and accuracy, let alone walk home.

  • Florian

    gw,

    If you had bothered to read Untold’s ref reviews over the past 4 years you would have not needed to ask the “who’s responsible” question.

  • Alan_Gooner

    @Charlie 2:14pm
    This frustrates me also.

    I watched the game in the pub on skysports and I have to be honest, myself, my Arsenal supporting friends and the collective ManU rabble all thought the McNair tackle on Wilshere was a great tackle. This was due to the camera angle at the time and the direction of the ball. On seeing the replay front on, it is abundantly clear that the challenge was very poor and should have been carded(I wouldn’t say there was intent just badly mistimed from Jack’s point of view). Without the luxury of seeing any further replays now, from that Vine it looks as though Dean is behind possibly obscured by Fellaini (I think?) but nevertheless poor refereeing.

    I firmly believe Jack should have seen red though. You can’t do that. Fellaini’s reaction saved him, there are players that would have rolled around on the floor for less.

    Anyway a combination of poor defending, lacklustre finishing, ManU luck (OG), poor refereeing (Fellaini push) cost us the points.
    It’s hard to believe that it could have been 3-0 to them in added time and also Rooney was flagged offside when they were 2 on 1 on the counter and he was several yards onside. That nearly caused a riot amongst the southern Mancs!

    Onwards. COYG

  • gw

    Florian – I will accept a lot of UK riffing leaves a lot to be desired and at old Trafford in particular there are some issues.

    But what about in Europe. Different refs but the same problems

    You can only say the refs are to blame for so long before you have to see that it isn’t the only factor at all.

  • finsbury

    To repeat:

    A professional referee doesn’t miss a foul like that. They can choose to ignore it. But they won’t have missed it. I was satin line with the incident, the worst possible angle in the ground and I still saw the foul. The only reasonable explanation possible is that he might have been attempting to play advanatage. But if so, then why not recall the play afterwards, like A.Taylor during the last Home defeat? (btw that was over a year ago). Oh. That’s why not! 🙂
    I understand.

    The more the “Friends of Untold” attempt to defend a known biased offical, and by proxy the PGMO, the more they expose the incredulous actions we are witnessing with startling frequency upon the field of play, and the bizarre and indefensible structure of the PGMO itself.

  • finsbury

    It must just have been my imagination that last year an Arsenal player was sent off in a Key game for wearing the wrong shirt and for having the wrong colour skin

  • Florian

    gw,

    1. Two words: Massimo Bussaca.
    2. Problems? Afaik it was the Anderlecht game that brought the knives out. The rest were quite ok – not perfect but ok. You seem to generalize too quickly. Next time, bring some facts to support your assertions.

  • Florian

    And, “some issues” you say? That is careless to say the least. Some would find it even offensive. Remember game 50?

  • ARSENAL 13

    Retrospective….. Hmmm

    Chahill incident! Milner! Ivanovichs body check on Ozil!!!…

    This retrospective thing is a sham.

  • Pete

    Not much has been made here of Shaw’s foul on Wilshere in the box. To me it was a clear penalty. I think this is one reason Jack was so riled a few minutes later for the Fellaini incident.

    This is how officials lose control of games – bad decisions increases the temperature and diminishes the respect players have for the officials.

  • Mick

    @Will
    Where did I say ban everyone with a different opinion?

    @Charlie
    This site is absolutely clear on where it stands. I agree with the aims and principles of the site, that is why I (used to) enjoy it. The regulars often disagree, but we all come from a similar base point. I come on here to debate with other like minded supporters, not trolls from Le Grove etc who have totally different and opposite views that are as strongly held as mine. Between us we cannot debate things, our views are too entrenched. So you tell me what is the point of them coming here. I do not go on Le Grove disrupting their comments, and I would guess that bjtgooner, jambug, Mandy, bootoomee, finsbury etc etc don’t either, it would be pointless and probably make us annoyed, frustrated and miserable. Look at it like this, why would a group of Tories want to go to a Labour party meeting other than to cause disharmony and trouble. Ban the trolls.

  • finsbury

    “This is how officials lose control of games – bad decisions …”

    A perfect and much observed as in repetitive example of how the PGMO instruct their officials to, and I quote, to “avoid confrontation”.
    By not avoiding pens for or red cards against AFC (nearly a season and a half now)? What could they mean?

  • finsbury

    < by not calling pens for or red cards against…

  • apo Armani

    @Pete
    November 25, 2014 at 4:14 pm

    Spot on mate!!

    Had BFG or Monreal tackled Rooney like that in front of goal…you can bet your bottom dollar people in Australia would have heard the whistle for a penalty…no doubts!!!!

  • apo Armani

    @Mick
    November 25, 2014 at 4:31 pm

    I don’t go to LeWHATEVER either…nor do I intend to!!! 🙂 🙂

  • gw

    Florian – I remember a couple of poor displays to qualify against Turkish opposition.

    I’m trying to point out that while poor refereeing decisions might account for some of our problems they do not account for all of them.

    Arsenal are a great team with a great history and we should hide all our issues behind the refereeing one however significant it is

    Would we be above Chelsea but for referees? Probably not, we might be all few places higher but we would not be where we should be aiming (important word, not demanding to win the league but aiming to).

    So we should address any and all issues with our squad and management and tactics to give us the best chance of success.

  • apo Armani

    Ban the TROLLS!

  • Tom

    Pete
    Agree with you on the Shaw / Wilshere penalty shout.
    Whenever a defensive player makes no attempt to play the ball, but instead plays the man and creates contact, which results in both players going down .. , it should be a penalty.

    Unfortunately many believe there was not enough contact on the play, which again brings into focus this whole ‘ enough.., not enough contact debate’ .

  • WalterBroeckx

    I really wonder how many years of evidence some have to get before they will see.

    It is clear that for some the bashing of Wenger is the sole reason of their existence…

    When we exposed Dean 2-3 years ago after a while the serious media followed us. And they openly spoke about Dean having a strange record with Arsenal. EVERYONE agreed that there was something seriously wrong with Dean doing Arsenal matches.

    And guess what…. the PGMOL and Dean suddenly lowered the bias levels. In so far that the Wenger bashers had already forgotten all those times Dean screwed us. And guess what…since then we won again matches under Dean.

    And then the media stopped writing about it… and guess what…. Dean is screwing us over again like before. Last season not giving a clear penalty for Arsenal and sending off 2 Chelsea players in our home match and now allowing a foul on a defender (his favourite way of working as we have shown for years).

    But like I said: keep your eyes closed and keep on bashing Wenger.

  • apo Armani

    Several questions answered by the boss 🙂

    http://player.arsenal.com/player/5678-press-conference

  • Florian

    gw,

    Dig your memory some more and you’ll find even more bad decisions against us. Too many to be a coincidence.

    Then go and count the decisions that went for Chavski this season. It’s not difficult to guess that they gained quite a few points like that. Including with us. We might not have been above them, but surely nearby, with 2/3 of the season to go.

    Which brings me to the point: screaming for the “responsible” is only damaging at this point, as the only effect on the team is lowering their morale.

    And, you’re not fooling anyone with “not demanding to win the league”. That’s exactly what you and others like you ask for year in year out, ignoring the realities of the PL, where we have to fight with a bully, an oligarch, a bottomless pocket sheik, and the likes of Mike Dean herded by the Master of Darkness Riley. Please consider these elements next time you’re asking for winning the league.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Solidarity is our strength.
    Very well shown by some lately….(sarcasm)

  • apo Armani

    @Florian
    November 25, 2014 at 5:00 pm

    SPOT ON!

  • GoonerDave

    We didn’t lose the match because of Dean, although his performance was poor.
    We created lots of chances and failed to take them. Then, our schoolboy defending cost us yet again.
    I don’t want Arsene to leave until he chooses to. But I still think his tactics, game preparation and game management are quite poor at times.
    Ideally, Arsene will address the seemingly obvious problems we have. If not, then it may well be time for a change but lets just see how the season unfolds before the knives come out! A lot of football to be played yet.

  • apo Armani

    Perhaps all the trolls/media on here should take up the bosses wager that that THIS squad of players WILL do VERY well THIS season!!!

    I call that pitting your money where your mouth is!

    Interesting was that the journo who asked him about the team didn’t care to reply as to whether he would take him up on the wager!

  • apo Armani

    putting not pitting 🙂

  • Yassin

    Wow, just wow!!!

    All my Manchester United supporting friends agreed, with no pressure, that it was a foul and an offside. No one of them argued with me not even for a second. And now I see so called Arsenal Fans arguing about it! What the hell is wrong with you? Do you really love Arsenal? Do you actually support Arsenal, or is it your dream to just have Wenger leave? Why?

    I can accept people asking questions about why we didnt score all those chances, becoming furious and so…. But to say that what I saw with my own eyes did not happen os way too much. How could you argue something that was recorded and everyone saw it? Is it because you lie and care about trolling? Just want the answer. They say that every team supporter/fan is biased towards his own team, except for those Arsenal so called fans, they are always biased against Arsenal!

  • Yassin

    BTW,
    in the anderlecht game everybody said we should play for 90min and not 60.

    Well, in our game we should have had abour 25min bar injury time to score 1-0 (we got momentum by then) had Dein not interefed.

    So yes we have issues in finishing, but again the ref decided who takes the 3pts

  • Tom

    Walter

    ‘ Another assault on an Arsenal player. Look at his foot! Completely turned over because of the late tackle. And what did Dean do? Nothing. No foul, no card…..nothing. Absolutely nothing. You can say it again….. DDIA! Dean Did It Again.’

    I must admit, I just had to go back and look at that play a few more times, thinking that just maybe I had missed something seeing the replays the first time around.

    So having looked at it closely again, I must say with regret Walter that you yourself do the most damage to your own referee reviews, when you call that tackle an ‘assault ‘.

    It was an honest sliding tackle that was late , nothing more nothing less.
    McNair’s foot was on the ground and it landed precisely where the ball would’ve been had Jack not kicked it away, and it all happened at speed.
    In the real time , whether from the stands where I was sitting, or even from the replays, it didn’t look like much .

    But off course it was a foul, no one is denying that, but an assault?

    You whip up some on here into a frenzy in a similar fashion the ‘Wenger out ‘ bloggers whip out their followers into Wenger is clueless , Wenger out type of frenzy……… , disappointing really.

  • Mick

    @Tom
    It looked pretty much like an assault to me. He came in at full speed from the side with no control, out of Jacks peripheral vision, giving him no time to take evasive action. As usual, true to your usual form, you take the opposing teams side.

  • G

    Well said Tom

    Even a lot of people I know who feel Arsene has come to the end of his time agree that we often seem to receive poor treatment from the referees.

    However we need to be realistic and accept the simple truths of being a football supporter

    We will feel any decision within the 50-50 category should go our way, in fact I know when watching games any decision that was probably 40-60 in favour of the opposition still feels like its unfair

    You will never convince the majority of some of the unfairness in refereeing by highlighting the very close calls. The Felani offside for example. In 100 games how many times would it be given offside regardless of who was playing? I’d suggest very few so to call it a wrong decision might be correct but to say it is a wrong decision aimed at arsenal defeats the cause you claim to support

    Don’t get hung up on these calls, accept them because if the same call occurred in Swansea v Villa we’d just shrug our shoulders and say might be might not be

    Then devote your efforts to focussing on how teams that play a more intricate or possession based system are often fouled tactically and afforded little protection by referees who still subscribe to the ridiculous notion of English football being about running around, shouting and thumping each other.

    As Tom just said the McNair tackle was a foul, if Wilshere had got up uninjured no one would have noticed, commented or cared.

    Also why do some people on this blog insist that anyone who questions whether the club are performing as well as the could be is a troll?

    Some of us remember the early Wenger years, the Graham trophies and better times for the club and despite the claims otherwise we don’t expect to win the league every season, one of my proudest memories was the FA cup semi final replay where we lost to a moment of genius from Giggs. I was and still am proud of the team that day because they pushed the best team in the country all the way and were only separated by a moment of genius.

  • Tom

    Mick

    And what opposing team is that exactly?
    The one who doesn’t believe that an up and coming player like McNair is dirty, which a word ‘ assault ‘ would imply he was.

    If you want to talk about dirty Man U players , then we can have this conversation. There were planty of those over the years, and there still are, like Fellaini,Rooney or Young for example.

    Neither does LVG have the reputation for coaching his players that sort of thing, unlike his two predecessors, SAF especially.

    And since Mc Nair had no exposure to neither Ferrguson or Moyes’ dirty tactics, I’m willing to give him the benefit of toubt.

  • Florian

    Tom,

    Jack is lucky to have his foot in one piece, and you’re calling that “not much”? Had this incident occurred outside the stadium, it would have been a legal case.

  • Mick

    @Tom
    Not knowing enough about McNair and whether he is ‘dirty’ or not I will concede that the use of the word assault could be over egging the pudding and inappropriate.
    However I stand by my observation of your unswerving ability to give the sympathy vote to the opposition and reluctance to do the same for the team you supposedly support.

  • Tom

    Florian
    Thanks for that , really .You just gave me a chuckle.
    Halve the shit that goes on on a football pitch would bring about legal action outside of it.

    Don’t you live in Seatle USA? Everything that goes on inside the football stadium might be a cause for legal action in our country 🙂

    On a serious note. I didn’t call Jack’s injury ‘Not much’.
    I did say however that the play he was fouled on looked like that.

    To compare it to true assaults on our players like Eduardo for example, is gross exaggeration.

  • Tom

    Mick
    Sympathy vote to opposition ?

    Not at all. I dislike Man U as much as the next guy on here, and I dislike Dean even more for his history in Arsenal games. But what I will never do, is indulge in this self pity many on here resort to ,when shit hits the fan.

    Blaming others for our shortcomings might make you feel better , but isn’t gonna solve our problems.

    Jack got injured as a result of a bad tackle, while he was unnecessarily holding on to the ball , instead of passing to a teammate ( Alexis)

    Football people who have nothing but Jack’s wellbeing in mind , have been saying this for a long time time.

    I hope he gets well quickly, as he is my favorite Arsenal player.

  • Yassin

    @Tom,
    If you analyze every Arsenal game when we lose, Per usually rush forward (as if instructed by Wenger) to act as 2nd CF in the box. I thibk he stays close to both nets in order to near his goal, still near the other when he predicts a cross is to be made by his team mates. Now his problem is that he has to choose one position either this or that!

    @Alex,
    In addition to insulting Bould, by calling him sick names, what would you do had he stood up to Morinho? You will call him lucky not to be red carded just like everybody did to Wilshere? You will say you were ashamed of his doing jusl like others said of Wenger at that incident?

  • Florian

    Tom,

    That’s because what’s going on there is thuggery, and the refs are doing nothing to stop it. And yes, I live in Seattle, the city which saw Steve Zakuani getting his foot broken, and having never recovered fully. The guy that tackled him received a 10 match ban, a $5000 fine, and is now retired at the age of 36.

    How the tackle on Jack looked is irrelevant. The material consequence is dictated by the physical impact.

  • Tom

    Yassin
    That’s a good observation. I don’t think for one second that Per does that against Arsen’s instructions. The problem arises from a fact that when he ventures up the pitch like that, Arsenal are without a single defender in his natural position at the back.

    If we had Koscielny against Rooney and Di Maria , I think he would’ve been better equipped to handle a two on one like that , as oppose to Monreal, who is uncomfortable playing at Center Back.

  • Yassin

    @Tom,
    Agreed on the Monreal/Kosienly thing. Arteta or Chambers should cover that position by then.

    But on the Jack foul, was it dirty (assault, did Mcnair want to hurt him) No sure not, this I totally agtee with you. One of the reasons we played so well against United is that they didnt use dirty tactics (except Fellaini).
    But here comes the question: would it occur in Spanish, German, or any other Liga? Of No, then who is responsible ( i accuse PGMOL and its not only about Arsenal players).

    As for this Wilshere should not hold into the ball thing. Yes he can avoid those against the law clashes of he did. But if they cant take away the ball from him wothout fouling, why should he pass it? Its his right, in the law to hold it, and not to be fouled (or then the one who fouls him be punished). This things those pundits use is not an excuse for the players to foul him. They should stop, just like when Messi and Ronaldo holds into the ball.

  • “If we had Koscielny against Rooney and Di Maria , I think he would’ve been better equipped to handle a two on one like that , as oppose to Monreal, who is uncomfortable playing at Center Back”.

    unless he had the ability of an electron to be in two places at once i dont think that any defender would stand a chance against rooney and di maria, you either stick, twist, or hope for a mistake. It was irresponsible of our team to leave Monreal that insanely open with as much of the game left.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Tom,
    I don’t know if you know the laws of the games and the interpretation how it should be done. I guess not.
    But most people talk about “intent”. You saw it as an “honest” tackle. Can you look inside that McNair his head? No. So can’t I. So what he was thinking: “I will just kick him” or “I will try to play the ball” is irrelevant. Only he knows and in fact these days it doesn’t matter anymore.

    What is relevant these days is : was he in control of his body when he threw himself towards Wilshere? The answer is : no. When you throw yourself in like that you are not in control of your body. And so it is at least dangerous. So a minimum of a yellow card.

    Was it reckless? Look at the picture and the way the ankle of Wilshere was completely twisted. The as you say ‘honest’ tackle caused the fouled player to be substituted because of an injury from the tackle.
    So the least you can say it was a tackle done with “excessive force”. Otherwise the ankle wouldn’t have been turned around for 180° like it did.

    And dangerous tackles done with excessive force that CAN cause serious injury must be punished with a red card. Mind you you don’t even need to be serious injured, if the tackle can cause such an injury you should get a red card.

    I wonder if Dean knew this and thus “ignored” the foul so he wouldn’t be forced to give a red card?

  • apo Armani

    I seem to remember one such “young up and coming” defender who broke in half the leg of Ramsey.

    I will be very very interested to see what the upshot of the extent of Wishere’s injury truly is as is clear from all videos that he lucky the foot stayed connected to his angle joint!!!

  • Tom

    Yassin

    ‘One of the reasons we played so well against United is that they didnt use dirty tactics (except Fellaini).’

    That’s the first original thought expressed by anyone on this thread, myself included, bravo!

    As to why Jack should modify his game and lay off the ball instead running with it into crowds of players ,two words – self preservation .
    He can ill aford getting injured twice a season and hope to have a long career. Since there’s very little hope this league will change its attitude towards physical play, he needs to change.

  • bjtgooner

    Tom

    When you state: –

    “As to why Jack should modify his game and lay off the ball instead running with it into crowds of players ,two words – self preservation.”

    This should not be how it is. What you are implying is that because Wilshere will continue to be targeted, with the connivance of the incompetent refs, he will be subjected to damaging fouls. What we should expect is that the refs should do their job by stamping out (no pun really intended) thuggery on the pitch – we should not be accepting continued PGMO incompetence.

    If you stated that Wilshere (and one or two others) should at times pass the ball earlier – for footballing reasons – I would probably agree, but I cannot accept the principle that we have to pass the ball at an inopportune moment because of the incompetence of the PGMO.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Messi his play is based on the same way that Wilshere plays. Running in to crowded areas with the ball on his feet. But in Spain they made sure that referees allowed Messi to play like that. At first many Spanish defenders tried to kick him to pieces. But they gave red cards and the defenders had to back off.
    Compare this with the way Jack is being kicked (and other Arsenal players).

    I agree with bjtgooner: referees must make sure that Jack can do that by punishing defenders who try to stop him with illegal fouls and certainly with dangerous fouls

  • Pat

    @Tom

    When Jack Wilshere has got yet another serious injury because of reckless play against the laws of the game by an opponent, not punished as usual by the representative of the PGMOL, it is quite sickening to see you blaming Jack for his own injury. If I didn’t believe you are here to be deliberately provocative, I would say you should be ashamed of yourself.

    Remember, Jack was the hero on the pitch for England just a week ago. Man of the match. How has he suddenly changed into a reckless fool with a death wish?

    Anyway, I’m too sad for the lad to waste any more time on you.

  • Mick

    Whether there was intent or not, whether you call it an assault or just mistimed is irrelevant. Jack looks like he is facing a minimum of 8 weeks out, more if he needs surgery. It’s going to keep on happening all the time he stays in the UK. My advice to him would be to go abroad.
    Of course it’s all Wenger’s fault, he should of told him not to dribble so much.

  • khitb77

    @ Walter

    Do you not think time and energy would be better spent looking for solutions to our deficiencies, rather than looking to blame referees all the time?

    If Wilshere had been sent off for going head to chin with Fellani, then he wouldn’t have got injured.

    Referees make mistakes just as often as the players. There “may” be some biased officials but we should have been good enough to beat Utd. Instead we lose due to the same weaknesses that have been obvious to everyone willing to see beyond the ridiculous belief that Wenger can do no wrong and that Arsenal are victims of some conspiracy cooked up by match officials.

    Pathetic nonsense spouted by people unwilling or unable to see how outdated Wenger’s methods have become.

  • Mick

    @khitb77
    What a very original line of thought’ did you come up with it yourself. Time for bed, I don’t think I can take any more crap like that.

  • zflair

    Wow… Right after Walter’s lengthy introduction about how absurd some of the Wenger-blaming is, we see more of it in the comments section…It’s amazing how, in football where games are decided on razor-thin margins, we are always told to overlook referee mistakes as it is simply whining.

    If the people sitting in the media box, and the millions of viewers can see a mistake, why is it that we still accept the absurdity of refereeing mistakes which may be worth tens of millions of dollars (e.g. a relegation or a champs league spot)?

  • Tom

    Walter
    Yes I am aware of the rules and how they should be applied, and I wouldn’t have a problem with McNair getting a yellow or red for his tackle.

    That said, it doesn’t change my view that calling it an ‘assault’ is probably based more on the outcome, rather than the tackle itself.

    Incidentally, Luke Shaw’s ankle didn’t look much better ,when it too got twisted after what was I minimal contact from Ox. Should Ox have been booked or sent off as well because Shaw had to leave the game?

    Your definition of ‘being in control of his body’ is just another judgment call referees make , but it’s never cut and dry like you make it sound.

    As a matter of fact what preceded the ‘ out of control ‘ , us you called it , tackle, was Wilshere himself losing control of the ball and subsequently sliding to poke it to a teammate. Wilshere was no more in control of his body than McNair was, he just got there first.

    Your comparison of Wilshere’s game to Messi’s is highly flawed as well,

    If there’s one constant with Messi, it’s that he’s in control of everything he does most of the time and he rarely slides into challenges , unlike Wilshere.

    Here’s what Arsen Wenger had to say on the matter.

    ‘I don’t think it was a tackle with a desire to hurt. I think he went for the ball, but it was a bad tackle that a young player can do. But it was a bad foul’

    Here’s Arsen describing Wilshere’s part in it .

    ‘He refuses to lose the ball and he’s ready to put his body on the line.
    It’s part of his game’

    I can only agree with every word Wenger said.

    I stand by my original statement.
    A foul? Yes. A yellow? Probably. A red ? Maybe. An assault ? Definitely not.

  • Tom

    Pat
    It’s probably a good idea.

  • Tom

    Bjtgooner

    You only quote my last post, but if you read my earlier post , you will find that that’s precisely what I was saying. Wilshere should’ve passed the ball to his left , to Alexis who was open in space.

    That’s a footballing reason for making an early pass , isn’t it.

    His first instinct can not be to run with the ball, when there are players in advantages positions around him.

  • gouresh

    Very interesting points, especially weather jack should hang on to the ball etc. My view is that he should not. Why? If I was in his place, I would ask myself, am I getting protection from the ref? No! Is the club taking any action about the refs? No, will the refs change, No, do I want my ankle in 1 piece? Yes. What’s the solution?

  • gouresh

    We can sit here and debate, rant whatever but things are not going to change off the field because the club is not willing to do anything about it. Why can’t we go attacking the refs (not literally), but like AW told the journalist back in the days? “if u don’t back off, I will attack”. Surely the club can unknowingly allow banners of all types showing the ref situation into the stadium? If the fans can hire a plane to show their displeasure about a manager, cant our club unknowingly do that and all the possible things that can bring the ref situation into the forefront? If we have been constantly hit below the belt, isn’t time we do the same?

  • Lets do the best thing for the club, appoint a manager the media will approve – I have no idea what/who they will approve – then give some refs the leg up in getting up their carrier progression ladder and send Wenger to the brig. Press will be happy , we will get decisions in favour of us, our players don’t have to be in the hospital all the time and we will stand a good chance of winning the league.

  • Before anyone pounces on that comment, its called Sarcasm.

  • WalterBroeckx

    Tom,
    you make it sound as if McNair was in control of the ball….amazing…
    Let us at least try to get the facts correct:

    Wilshere ran with the ball. McNair was chasing him.
    Wilshere was in front of McNair.
    McNair threw himself off the ground in order to stop Wilshere/the ball.
    McNair didn’t make contact with the ball at all but completely turned the ankle of Wilshere around.

    And yes the outcome matters. If you see a foot pointing the wrong way as a ref you can say: now wait a minute it seems to me that there has been used some excessive force in this tackle as a foot doesn’t just turn the other way from heavy breathing on it. And using excessive force is a reason for a red card.

    Let us go back to the Flamini tackle last season at Southampton. Threw himself towards the other player, PLAYED THE BALL, but HE COULD HAVE SERIOUSLY INJURED the other player. Mind you the other player wasn’t injured at all. In fact he was treated but the sponge bob treatment and could carry on without any problem. Yet nobody disagreed with the red card.

    So now we have a late tackle, excessive force (look at the picture again as this doesn’t happen from heavy breathing) AND IT CAUSED A SERIOUS INJURY. And yet you come up with all kinds of excuses that is was an honest tackle.

    So was Flamini his tackle last season. Flamini honestly played the ball.

    But hey let us put Saint Mike Dean on a pedestal. And lets blame Wenger for this.

    another injured player? another injury from an illegal unpunished contact. But within 2 weeks people will blame Wenger for this injury and ask questions on our medical staff and ask Wenger to be sacked because he doesn’t deal with the injuries.

    FFS how can Wenger deal with such things? Tell his players not to come close to opponents any more?

  • WalterBroeckx

    Tom,
    I don’t need Arsene to explain the rules to me.
    Mind you Wenger has been brought up like most of us with the “intent” of a foul.
    This has been thrown out of the window a few years ago but most people still judge it on intent. As Wenger does.

    We(= referees) now have to judge on : the POSSIBLE outcome or the real outcome.

    Example: Can a leg be broken by such a tackle? Yes=red.
    Is that leg I see laying on the floor separated from the rest of his body broken? Yes=red.

    Ok, that last part was a bit exaggerated. 😉

    And yes you can get a red card for a tackle even when you played the ball.

  • Mick

    Jack is out for weeks and I feel so sad for him but most of us know that it was always going to happen at some stage of the season. It almost happened in the Spurs game when Rose bent his ankle at 90 degrees in the penalty area, again no foul given. Hardly a game goes past where Jack is not hobbling off for treatment because of an ankle ‘assault’ (sorry Tom for using the assault word) by an opponent, usually after he has released the ball, after all that is the way to stop Jack as endorsed and encouraged by the media and carried out by a majority of the teams we play. Even the Nevilles have admitted as much from their Man U days. These assaults are not accidental, they are a result of the ‘Arsenal don’t like it up’em’ mantra so lets give it to them, the refs won’t stop it. It’s a bloody disgrace.

  • bjtgooner

    Tom @ 4.45am

    I replied to your comment: –

    “As to why Jack should modify his game and lay off the ball instead running with it into crowds of players ,two words – self preservation.”

    I think my reply is clear enough not to require further elucidation.

  • Tom

    Walter
    Let’s go back to basics and see where we disagree on this once again, seeing as it’s getting muddied up a bit.

    I’m most certainly not questioning your refereeing credentials , nor have I said McNair tackle was not a foul. Further more, I’ve also stated I would’ve been ok with any sort of punishment , a yellow or red for the Man U player.

    I’m also in total agreement with you about the fact Dean has been a terrible referre for Arsenal in the recent seasons , and we got no help from him in the last game either.

    The only thing we seem to disagree is whether McNair’s tackle was malicious enough to be called an ‘assault ‘.

    You think it was , I think it wasn’t and neither does Wenger.

    Below there is your attempt to recount the facts as you saw it;

    ‘Wilshere ran with the ball. McNair was chasing him.
    Wilshere was in front of McNair.
    McNair threw himself off the ground in order to stop Wilshere/the ball.
    McNair didn’t make contact with the ball at all but completely turned the ankle of Wilshere around.’

    To make your argument stronger, you conveniently omit the part where Wilshere himself goes to ground to play the ball that had gotten away from him.

    If someone was going by your description of that tackle alone , the might’ve got an impression Wilshere was running with the ball , controlling it , and McNair went to ground chopping Wilshere down from behind.

    McNair was never in control of the ball, and at the time of the tackle neither was Wilshere. When a player takes a heavy touch on a ball and has to go to ground to make a play on it , he’s no longer in control of the ball.

    Again , I’m not blaming the victim and I feel bad for Wilshere and Arsenal,
    but I did say many times before on here that I would like Wilshere to stay on his feet and not go into sliding challenges as often as he does.

    But maybe Arsen Wenger has a point when he says Wilshere wouldn’t be Wilshere without that part of his game.

  • khitb77

    @ Mick

    re: November 25, 2014 at 11:14 pm comment

    “What a very original line of thought’ did you come up with it yourself. Time for bed, I don’t think I can take any more crap like that.”

    You are a deluded fool if you can’t see what is happening to Arsenal.

    This website scratches around looking to blame EVERYONE else for our failings.

    If it’s not the ref, it’s the opponent thugs who injure our players, or it’s the rival fans, or it’s the media, or know nothing pundits or most likely it’s the AAA who aren’t real fans because they have issues with Wenger.

    I can’t understand how you can all be so blinkered? How can you explain our numerous arse kickings at the hands of Chelsea, Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Everton etc? In these games we are consistently out thought by the opposition manager. Our “rivals” adapt and (sadly) overcome with such regularity that it’s now just becoming a question of when will we press the self-destruct during the game!

    It’s very easy to sit and analyse the performance of the ref or his assistants and point to mistakes they’ve made but WHY doesn’t this website every put the same energy into analysing Wenger’s tactical mistakes?

    The amount of time and effort being needlessly spent arguing about the McNair challenge on Wilshere is pathetic. If you lot could actually engage your brains you’d realise that Wilshere shouldn’t even have been on the pitch by that point for an obvious red card “butt” on Fellaini.

    Yes, the same player then pushed Gibbs in the back which directly led to Utd’s first goal but this was a game we dominated and then threw away. We weren’t terrible in terms of our general play and on the balance of play we certainly didn’t deserve to lose but you have to ask why couldn’t Wenger adapt our tactics at half time to exploit the makeshift Utd defence? Why doesn’t he ever adapt our tactics and instead arrogantly believe that our style of play will win out, surely by now he’s seen enough examples of games where we’ve failed to win by playing this way!

    I would have absolutely loved to see Wenger build another great side, but too long has passed since our last great side, the game has moved on but he hasn’t. Wenger is too set in his ways and can’t accept that he could be wrong.

    In some ways the very worst disappointment is that literally millions of people can see our weaknesses, people who know only a tiny fraction of what Wenger does and yet year on year he fails to address these problems!

  • Mick

    @khitb77
    Of course, whatever. This is a pro Wenger site, we support the club and manager. You would be happier on Le Grove, a site more suited to the more enlightened person such as yourself, rather than trying to wind up deluded idiots like us.

  • gw

    @ mick

    Just a quick question – do you think that Arsène has done as well as he should have this season in dealing with the identified issues from last season?

    I ask because there seem to be only two acceptable views. He is god and has never made a mistake or he is useless and never gets anything right.

    Is it conceivable that this season he made a good signing in sachet and a big error in not replacing TV?

    I just want to know if some of the people on here believe he has made any mistakes or if the start to the season was the best it could have been?

  • Mick

    @gw
    Of course he makes mistakes, just like any other manager does. The thing is we don’t pretend that we know all the answers, we support him to find the answers as he usually does. Nobody here denies we have had a poor and disappointing start to the season but fluctuations in form and fortunes happens, that is part of football and if you cannot handle that then go watch a film instead. Our job is to support the team irrespective of where we are or how we are playing, we always give our support, that is what true supporters do.