How do we know that a manager is succeeding?
Richard Bedwell
Rather than come up with a short comment that would get lost in what is a long and interesting response I thought I would respond to Tony’s piece in a little more depth.
In this age of data driven assessment there are, I believe, three basic measures by which all managers are judged. They are
- The final (or occasionally, for clubs near the bottom, projected) league position,
- Amount spent to achieve it and
- Crowds attracted to witness the process of getting there.
Analyses over many years tell us that the correlation between salary payment and final league placing is almost a perfect one. Year in, year out, Arsenal have been the fourth highest payers in terms of total salaries to playing staff. So finishing fourth is exactly what should be expected and why managers who underperform (at least by a few places) usually get the sack.
Obviously if you can achieve what you do without recourse to net spending in the transfer market then that is a massive bonus – and, up until the summer of 2013, that is exactly what Wenger did. Qualifying for the Champions League can be viewed as the icing on the cake and winning a knock-out trophy perhaps as the cherry on top of that icing. Last season, the first in which he had the ability to go into transfer market deficit, Wenger achieved all of that.
Looked at over a longer period the only other clubs who have prevented Arsenal achieving a higher position in the League are those that have had a great deal more money to spend (on salaries and transfers) or, as with Liverpool last season, have had far fewer demands on their players thanks to an absence of European football.
As far as crowds go Arsenal have remained at a 99% sell out rate throughout the whole period of Wenger’s tenure – despite the fact that capacity needing to be filled leapt by 58% half way through. This, to the unemotional data analyst, can only confirm that, regardless of trophies won, demand to watch us remains at, or above, supply. It also says something pretty significant about the attractiveness of the style of play and the lack of traction that Wenger’s critics seem to be getting.
It’s worth adding on the stadium front that, apart from Arsenal and the financially doped Man City, every other club that has moved stadia has subsequently been relegated. Sometimes, like Southampton, they claw their way back but history tells us that is often after a very big fall indeed, many changes of manager and occasionally go into bankruptcy. Mostly they don’t come back to anything like the level they were at before their move.
Arguably the next two and a half years of his contract provide Wenger’s greatest test. Financially Arsenal is very much on the up while the financially doped clubs are having to operate under much greater strictures. They’ll still be active in the market but they will have to sell to finance those buys and will have to get it right first time pretty much every time; a very different situation than has been the case over the last several years.
So, being as unemotional as we can, data tells us that Wenger has performed at or above reasonable expectation consistently for almost two decades. Does that make him the most likely manager to achieve the same or better over the next few years? I look forward to hearing unemotional, data driven, arguments to the contrary because, like it or not, that’s how decisions are made these days.
Classic Untold
Why do we not sign every player some think we need
Forget home advantage, the world of football is changing
This is a good read. Intersting, informative and yet terrible if this truly is how “success” is looked at. How’s about looking at the league positions over the past ten/twenty years? Success shouldn’t be the driving point for the managers if they aren’t winning anything. If they aren’t winning anything then surely “progress” is the way forward. And by this I mean if we finnish fourth one year, then third has to be the goal the next and then second and so on and so forth.
Not sure the doped clubs will find life any harder, most likely their accountancy practices will just need to be slightly more imaginative.
49 Unbeaten: It is a zero sum game – for every club that progresses another regresses. Therefore remaining stable is a pretty decent outcome – ask Charlton fans who were unhappy at the lack of progress under Curbishley. However our points totals have increased over each of the past four seasons, which IS progress, together with the Cup win last season.
Excellent article.
I look forward to many more years (not just 2.5) of Arsene being in charge at Arsenal.
you’ve made when the press lies about goal keeper smoking in the shower hmm who was peeping? and your forward is fake storming out of training and they can talk about how weak the other team is just incase they lose!
Look; if I can get Arsenal to win the Premiership every season on Football Manager, as well as all the trophies, its surely pathetic a man being paid to manage Arsenal can only get us to 4th place every season. I’ll forget about the FA Cup last season because that’s inconvenient to my rhetoric.
Wenger doesn’t know how to do transfers; all you need to do is search for the best players and then offer more and more money until the other club and player accepts.
Wenger clearly doesn’t know his players well enough; I can tell you the Stamina, Stregnth, speed, and ability points of all the players in my team.
He doesn’t know tactics; I can just pause a game in play and work out the best the tactics to use.
Pete – Are you seriously putting Charlton and Arsenal in the same sentence? And to be honest I don’t really care for the other clubs that don’t progress as long as ours does!
Sadly esxste, i think that is genuinely the way most of the Wenger-out brigade think.
esxste – Is that a joke? Sarcasm right? Surely not a serious answer right?
I am sure that esxte’s post is ironic. The exaggeration makes the basic point about all the “experts” who know better than Mr. Wenger
Media assessments of success vary according to circumstances and depend on which team is under discussion. When we win the FA Cup, it does not count for much, as it is no longer important etc…
Now that Chelsea have lost 2 games, the notion of an invincible season has been quietly forgotten, .. after all, only one team has done it in modern times, so it is no longer mentioned.
On the other hand, all “right thinking” football fans will look forward to SG winning the FA Cup on his birthday in his last game in England!
(more irony, in case of any doubt)
49 – you miss my point. Charlton were happily chugging along around half way in the PL – but there was increasing restlessness amongst the fanbase that they were not “progressing”. From the outside, it was obvious that 10th in the PL was a fine achievement and it was not realistic to expect anything better.
Nevertheless, the long-serving manager (Curbishley) was worn down and left. They then went through about 4 managers in 4 years and ended up in League 1. They are now struggling in the lower reaches of the Championship.
What I am stating is that 4th place is a realistic prospect, but to finish higher is very tough indeed as we are seriously outgunned by three other clubs financially. Fortunately, 4th usually gets a CL spot which is economically crucial (and crucial for player acquisition). We ARE progressing in that more money is becoming available (hence signings like Ozil and Sanchez) – but it is a marathon not a sprint and it will take several more years before we sufficiently close to MC, MU and Chelsea to challenge them “on the level”.
My concern about your point is that you are ignoring the very substantial downside risk of finishing lower down the League that bringing in a new manager entails. Liverpool, Everton and the Totts have all finished in the Top 4 in recent times – and could easily do so again. Hence one bad season for MU after they change manager and they end up 7th.
It may be boring, but we all need to be patient. And sort out those accursed injuries.
If we can also lever Mike Riley out of his job – getting closer – that should also make a significant difference.
“It’s worth adding on the stadium front that, apart from Arsenal and the financially doped Man City, every other club that has moved stadia has subsequently been relegated. Sometimes, like Southampton, they claw their way back but history tells us that is often after a very big fall indeed, many changes of manager and occasionally go into bankruptcy. Mostly they don’t come back to anything like the level they were at before their move.”
Didn’t see Bayern Munich get relegated when they moved to the Allianz arena.
This article seems more like designing the criteria to fit the result.
You guys can dress it up however, you want. Less money, more points, biased refs, more injuries-the simple fact is that Wenger can no longer beat the best on a regular basis. If he were to start doing that again as he did before when he had less money, a smaller stadium, same biased refs then I’d say he deserves to stay.
When did we become so emotionally charged about our club finances. I suggest it was as soon as the club started using that as an excuse for Arsenal not winning anything. I never heard any complaints about finances when we were winning titles 10-15 years ago. Or beating the big European teams or even losing to them. Back then it was just understood that our team was either better or worse than them. Now instead of actual results on the pitch we start judging Wenger’s achievements on all sort of quasi-football criteria.
We’ve been taught to accept relative mediocrity on the pitch whilst praising our balance sheet off it.
I can see AW spending some reasonable money on really, really big players next season and a headline of that Mourinho Shit complaining of financial disadvantage. I just can see it.
can only agree with your assessment, the club has been punching above its weight with Wenger in charge. We all want to move on, step up, but not so easy when we compete in a league with 3 clubs that have had vastly more resources over several years.
Critics might point at areas where we could do better, maybe with some validity, there is always room for improvement. Coaching, injuries, game management, transfers, ref management have all been highlighted by some as areas in which we could do better. All opinion of course, but when dealing with facts, our manager has performed unbelievably, and there is no reason why he will not continue to do so.
@ Richard Bedwell – Nice article .Agree on all points.
Meanwhile , I’m sure the so called ‘real’ , ‘true’ and ‘in the know’ fans will show their displeasure towards the AW and the club by staying away , thus depriving us of income !
Go , on do try it , I dare you !
In the meantime ,here’s one of those , ‘Where the sun don’t shine….’ advice jokes , which seems quite appropriate for ‘them’ ,so go on do the necessary !
http://johnhartstudios.com/bc/
The two bug bears that critics of Wenger have are:
1. His most recent teams don’t know how to defend, &
2. He can’t beat the best teams (probably as a result of point 1.)
The last 5 years have provided a highlight reel of results that have shook each & every Arsenal supporter to the core. From being the 1st premier league club to let a four goal lead to slip to being the 1st English team to let a 3 goal lead slip in the CL.
I remember when Arsenal under Wenger were the 1st English team to win in both the San Siro & the Bernabeu. Admittedly, last seasonn he became the 1st English team to win at the Westfalensatdion in one a rare few away victoris against a so called “big” team.
Until he rectifies point 1, he won’t win anything of major significance again. So we can hope and pray and assume things will work out under Wenger but any progress that his supporters may claim cannot be backed up by his teams defensive vulnerabilities.
However, so many are now brainwashed to accept 4th place a nice cup run as out lot nowadays. Long may it continue.
R&D
Bayern – I think this have covered in previous article here as to why they are a financial beast in Germany. This would in some way explain why building a new stadium would not cripple them.
10-15 years ago – Teams lived (or tried to live) within their means. We had some degree of financial muscle due to our success on the field. If we had stayed on this trajectory, the new stadium would have taken us to another level. Alas the introduction of free money. We were saddled with the new stadium while they didn’t had to worry about crippling debts.
One question, would Chelski and Man City be where they are without the money?
I am not saying AW is not fallible, he is. His attacking style will always create opportunities for the opposition. But is is how he wants his team to play. Maybe he could ask his players to curb their attacking senses a little, but how little is little?
When the opposition is there to be beaten, would you hold back? Or take a chance and kill a game off? We armchair supporters have the luxury of foresight. Who knows whether he did or did not tell his players to curb it. But would he be critical of his players for trying to wrap up the game? I don’t know.
But what I do know is he has been punching above his weight and should be commended for that.
redandread
Call us when the bundesliga has the equivalent of 2 oilers and man u, with whom bayern has to contend when they are moving stadia. Oh, while you’re at it,please point us to (at least)3 bayern players with broken limbs within the past decade due to ref shite…
Good one Wengerson
redandread
The “most recent” arsenal teams beat(historically) Dortmund and bayern, in Germany, at their peak! They also (outplayed and) beat Barcelona in 2011, when they were virtually unplayable, becoming the only team to do so in that period! However, most of us are not expecting victories against the epl top 4 with all this ref shite going on.
Still, in the last 4 seasons, we have beaten ch3l5ea, man city(arteta strike), man u(ramsey goal) and liverpool
Besides, your obsession with these “big” teams have been shown for what it is, just an obsession. It does not guarantee anything as you beloved morinho proved last season.
Apparently Wengers teams dont know how to defend. I guess last season when we had one of the best defences in the league that was because of flukes and good luck then? It gets so tiring repeating the same thing over and over again to these aaa lot.
RedandDread
You are wasting your time on here trying to explain your points.Most on here can’t see our defensive failings and frailty.They cant see how tactically inept we’ve been this season in most games and cant see any flaws with our once great manager.They have an excuse for every possible reason why we have regressed as a team over 10 years and these are either
Referees
Oil money
Injuries
Commentators
Biassed journalists
Dirty opposition players.
The manager of arsenal fc is not accountable for poor results like at any other club in the football league and is paid 8 million a year weather he suceeds or fails.
Gunner 6
His record against the 3 best teams in the land for the last 5 years is as follows:
UTD. : Wins 1 – Draws 2 – Losses 6
Chelsea: Wins 2 – Draws 2 Losses 5
City: Wins 2 – Draws 4 – Losses 3 (not including Community Shield)
So that’s 5 wins in 27 games and a total point gain of 23/81 pts. or 0.85pts per game
This is not including the three times that we have met & lost to each of these clubs in Cup competition.
Is that punching above his weight. The hard truth is that he has been achieving the bare minimum that would be required for a club the size of Arsenal.
The manager at Arsenal has to be judged against the best in the land because they are one of the beat clubs in the land. And against the best he’s failed more often than not in recent times.
Here are the T*tts record against those 3 teams and us in the same period:
Arsenal: Wins 3 – Draws 2 – Losses 4 (not including the two cup wins we have had)
UTD.: Wins 2 – Draws 4 – Losses 3
Chelsea: Wins 1 – Draws 4 – Losses 4
City: Wins 1 – Draws 1 – Losses 7
4 wins in 27 – total points 21/91
So during a period when Spurs have changed manager more often than I change underpants, flushed millions down the tube and generally been an organizational mess, we’ve earned 2 more points off the same top 3 clubs.
sure is Jammy J, its a shame that UA cant get some stats that can be referenced whenever this comes up save anyone replying.
Wengerson at 4.11pm, thanks, saved me writing the stats! What short memories people have.
@ Nick Lee
I see that mate. They have an excuse for every situation. I used to be the same way and defend Arsene at every possible chance but eventually you have to consider that maybe he isn’t as great as he once was simply because the record and results say so.
@ Jammy J
Our so called great defense and Golden Glove keeper couldn’t stop the other teams in the top 5 putting (you know the best teams in the land, of which are one) plundering 22 goals against us in just 6 games. As I said Wenger and his defense has not shown he can beat the best.
R&D
I fail to see why you are only comparing Arsenal’s results against the top 3. EPL is won or lost against all opposition.
My retort above is living within their means. Yet you gave me results against the top 3.
Any team with that amount of money season after season should be able to build a very strong squad.
This is not senseless defense of AW but a pragmatic view of things happening around Arsenal. Some we can influence, some we can’t but have to content with regardless.
Cost of the Allianz Arena was 340 million euro compared to 470 million pounds for the Emirates. That’s a difference. The Bayern was only 50% owner with the other half owned by 1860 Munchen. This part Bayern eventually purchased of 1860 for 11 million euro only.
So the cost of the stadium for Bayern was at most 181 million euro, considerably less than Arsenal paid for the Emirates.
And then we are not even considering any funding there may have been with regards of World Cup 2006.
@ redandread and nick lee
“I see that mate. They have an excuse for every situation”
Now that you 2 are aware of “our” excuse for every situation, what exactly is your excuse for hanging around a pro-wenger site?
R&D,
In 2007 Bayern Munich only finshed 4th in the Bundesliga. And didn’t qualify for the CL I think.
That was 2 years after having the Allianz Arena move.
And that for a team that won 12 titles in the last 20 seasons.
Maybe it did affect them but as there were no oilers in the Bundesliga not so much as it affected Arsenal
redandread
“…we’ve earned 2 more points off the same top 3 clubs.”
Since all that separates us from spurs is those 2 points, how about you go support them until Wenger leaves? Or indefinitely?
And Kentetsu thanks for pointing out the cost compared to the Emirates
didnt Bayern share with another team as well? 1860?
@ Walter
As you are aware, the AAA are not interested in logic at all!
What is the legacy of their beloved morinho in world football? A world class stadium? State of the art Training Facilities? A one of a kind Invincible Trophy? How about an offer to the (defeated)opposing team to replay a match after they felt they were hard done by the result?
Did Mourinho actually make and nature any players career? (genuine question).He seems more a mercenary figure…
Just out of interest also was it Wenger’s fault that the Ox decided to become a goalkeeper when we lost to Chelsea?A mystifying moment that I still don’t get, but speculate upon.
Hey Walter
You and your fellow UA members have a wonderful site but I’ve tried to generate some debate regarding Wenger’s recent achievements. You have the right to celebrate and support Arsene Wenger for what he has achieved at the club. Nobody doubts what he has achieved-what they doubt is what he can still achieve and the increasing evidence is that he will not challenge for the top prizes in football. Those same prizes that Arsenal are set up to challenge for and win.
However, you must be aware there is a growing element of the support (and people need to accept and understand that questioning Wenger doesn’t equate to not supporting Arsenal) that believes:
1. The manager is not tactically aware enough to go head to head with the best teams
2. He’s been unable to develop a solid defensive structure that would make us more difficult to beat
3. The injury record of his team over the last 6 years has been horrendous and has show no signs of abating-furthermore he has appointed ALL bar one of the specialists responsible for dealing with our players fitness
4 He has had more money at his disposal than he has cared to spend.
5. His recent recruitment policy has had the team struggling in key positions for several years now. Whether it be need for strikers, defensive midfielders or centre backs.
There is simply no excuse imo, that Wenger has for his recent record against the best teams (and I don’t even throw Stoke (a) into that equation). The simple fact is that the better managers with better players available to them have shown a consistent ability to beat Wenger’s teams. And for those who say we beat Barca & Bayern, remember we lost both of those TWO legged ties. Our win against a fading Dortmund last year was a back to the walls victory (which I have already praised) but was countered by a typical defensively naive loss at home.
I hope that at some stage your fans on this site eventually realise that every loss Wenger suffers is not the responsibility of bias referring, oil money, injuries and stadium costs. It would do well to analyse objectively why these games have been lost and why in the end we’ve won so very little for so very long. Wenger can be wrong you know……admitting that doesn’t mean that you hate him or Arsenal or support Chelsea or Mourinho. He has put himself and the club in a position to be judged against the best and deserves to be.
To your point 3: since 6 years you say about our injury record. And you are right that is since 2009. Any coincidence that it is the year that Mike Riley became head of the referees? The one with the blueprint on how to beat Arsenal by kicking them to pieces and how to tilt the pitch to the extreme? No it is probably the foult of AW how Riley acted that day?
I also suggest to read the Rangers articles on the site since 2009. And then tell us to spend all the money yesterday as if there is no tomorrow. If AW would have spend all the money on players that people like you said he should buy there would be no Ozil or Alexis at Arsenal and no more trophies than we won now
wengerson
January 6, 2015 at 4:56 pm
@ redandread and nick lee
“I see that mate. They have an excuse for every situation”
Now that you 2 are aware of “our” excuse for every situation, what exactly is your excuse for hanging around a pro-wenger site?
I’ve asked that very question many many times.
I’ve often used this analogy:
They are like ‘Die hard rock’ fans at a ‘jazz’ concert.
a) First off:
-They don’t like the musicians.
-They don’t like what they play.
b) Then:
-They barrack the players.
-Insult the fans.
c) And to cap it all:
-Get upset when the Jazz fans ‘call them out’
As you say, why the f**k keep posting somewhere that has diametrically opposed views to your own, if not solely to ‘shit stir’, for want of a better phrase?
Jambug
Something tells me that they will not answer that question…
@ redand read
“I hope that at some stage your fans on this site eventually realise that every loss Wenger suffers is not the responsibility of bias referring, oil money, injuries and stadium costs. ”
And in an event that we never actually realize this? Will you leave us alone?
Walter Walter please stop it.Please retweet that post -To your point 3: since 6 years you say about our injury record. And you are right that is since 2009. Any coincidence that it is the year that Mike Riley became head of the referees? The one with the blueprint on how to beat Arsenal by kicking them to pieces and how to tilt the pitch to the extreme? No it is probably the foult of AW how Riley acted that day?
ON any other website or talk to ant real fans of football and they will tell you that you are deluded and not of sane mind.Im all for conspiracy theory’s but that is madness.Oh and you can come up with all the stats and graphs and tables you want.You are the leader of this mad cult..
nick lee
You had me at “ON any other website…”
How about you go back there?
To the Wenger out brigade, just contemplate this for a moment.. You agree with Peirs Morgan. Enough said!
Nick lee please just piss off to a different blog. You seem as frustrated in your comments as we. No-one is a winner here. Everyone is sick and tired of your ignorant, repetitive comments and then when you get asked very fair questions, you have no answer to them so you just ignore it and then go on to post another brainless, ignorant comment.
Evening all.
Firstly, yet again today I have seen this repeated nonsense about Arsene Wenger not being able to defend. It’s rubbish.
I often here Wenger detractors say twenger only had success because he had the Graham back 4. Well, to those of us who have been watching the game a long time, we can recall the Graham back 4 being part of a team that finished 12th. 12th. Let’s repeat that, 12th. It wasn’t this all conquering defence you believe. This 12th place finish was achieved without any oil money floating around. Now George Graham didn’t just have a back 4 that defended, the whole team did. At the expense of attacking football. That is where the ‘one nil to the Arsenal’ chant came from. We also had the media screaming ‘boring Arsenal’ at every opportunity too.
I stood on the terraces and watched some good stuff but some boring and tedious football too. In a wonderful but old stadium with restricted views and cold concrete terracing.
When Wenger joined, he took the Graham back 4 and coached it to work with the rest of the team in a more fluent and attacking way. His first full season we won a double.
When the back 4 needed to be replaced, Wenger did so. He didn’t wave his cheque book in the air and buy the 4 best known defenders he could find. Ashley Cole, Kolo Toure, Lauren and Sol Campbell. None of these were big stars at the time, the only one that was rated then was Campbell. Wenger, who does not know how to defend, coached this defence to the only modern day ‘unbeaten’ premier league season. Only an idiot would believe a tactically naive manager who cannot defend would achieve this incredible feat.
Those fans who choose to come onto Untold and repeat the recycled garbage that has almost become folk lore about Wenger not being able to defend, are ignorant. This is the problem. They join a ‘gang’ and arrogantly believe they know best. They do not consider any evidence that contradicts their views. They recycle the George Graham defence nonsense. They ignore the Invincibles back 4.
They ignore the biggest achievement the club has achieved – the stadium.
They ignore the fact that if Wenger had not secured CL qualification year on year, ( their 4th place trophy) we wouldn’t have Ozil & Sanchez. And we would be even further behind the oilers & the rest.
Ignorance is bliss. But it is also the home of an idiot.
Nick Lee. Look, you don’t share the opinions of fans on here so you are only here for a row. Best everyone just ignores you unless you want to debate sensibly.
You call us a mad cult. I would call you the same but my spellchecker keeps correcting what I type.
@ Walter
So if I read your reply re. pt.# 3. Our dismal record against the better teams in league is foremost the fault of Mike Riley and the deep referee conspiracy?
Regarding your reply to pt# 4, I never said he should spend money that he doesn’t have but that it appears that he hasn’t spent what he has had available to him for transfers.
I have tried to engage in a sensible debate on this forum but have been met with abuse and a series of replies that in some cases a 12 year old would be embarrassed of.
Anyways, here’s hoping Arsenal don’t go bust in the next couple years and that A very incompetent Mike Riley doesn’t have any more nasties waiting for us.
I guess we’l just have to wait till Arsenal make more money than anyone else and a new batch of professional referees come on the scene before we can win anything of note.
Nick Lee
a)On your own admittance you visit other sites that have the same opinion as you
and
b)You think Walter, one of the co founders of this site is delusional and insane.
I know this because you said the following:
“ON any other website or talk to ant real fans of football and they will tell you that you are deluded and not of sane mind.”
So 2 questions.
1) Why not stay on sites that share your view, and converse with people who think as you do?
2) Why constantly post negative comments about Wenger on a blog that is overtly pro Wenger and co founded by someone you consider insane?
2 perfectly reasonable questions that deserve 2 reasonable answers.
RedandDread
With your seemingly obsessive need to dismiss the ‘oilers’ money as merely a trifling irrelevance I posted this elsewhere.
“”It always makes me laugh when people try to say the money makes no difference.
Just 2 things for starters:
a)If the money makes no difference then why the f**k spend it then ?
b) And who’s going to tell Roman he’s poured a Billion quid down the drown because the special one could of won it all without it……….except he didn’t did he, and no, he’s not that special until he does.
THEN FOLLOWING NO REPLY, THIS:
I have to say I’m a bit disappointed really.
Even though my 2 questions above where not directed at anyone by name, I would of thought at least ONE particular individual would of been keen to put me straight.
Oh well, it seems those that think the money makes no difference have no explanation as to why it gets spent anyway.
Poor old Roman, he must be gutted he spent all that money for no reason at all.
Unless somebody to can explain otherwise.””
Well knows your chance.
Why the f**k do they spend it ??
@R&D – Pleas could you point me into the direction where you have been abused
*please
Oh fuck it. I have lost interest in the whole charade. But you better watch it guys, the agents provocateur will soon start crying about being abused and the their ‘freedom of speech’ being curtailed.
On Tony’s anti-abuse article from a few days ago we got some nauseatingly self-righteous indignation from the usual suspects about being ‘patrolled’ and bullied but how can one continue to respond to wind up comments without shit getting nasty? I applaud those who try but as I have always maintained, people don’t take time to post repeatedly on blogs if they aren’t super convinced they are right and when people go to post comments that are contrary to a blog’s point of view, all they are looking for is a fight. They are never going to change their minds and they have no plan to change any mind either.
It is best to let sleeping dogs lie by just scroll past their comments. I think this is good for everyone.
As the two moaners seem to think I am insane I will no longer reply to them 😉
When I have a bit of time it is actually a nice way to pass the time but who am I to stop them from being unhappy.
Corr: Now’s your chance.
Shame Brickfields is having a kip,could do with a few jokes…
I reckon youre right Boo, scroll on scroll on!
So if we’re a “mad cult” should we start up some initiation rites to new comers? Shouldnt we also be trying to take over the world…a ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa??? (aha?)or something.
Will the cult be holding any naked parties at midnight around a big fire?- you can count me out of that, I have to be in bed at 9.00pm…
Bootoomee
You are right of course. I just cant help calling them out for the shit stirrers they are.
As for this constant whining about there ‘right to an opinion’ and being ‘insulted’, what trash.
Firstly, they seem to be free to post there opinion whenever they want to me to me.
Seems to me they construe any descent in there opinion as a restriction of there ‘right’ to that opinion. Again, nonsense.
Insulted? Personally I think they get of lightly. The odd profanity but nothing that should really offend any Worldly wise football fan I would of thought. Must be sensitive little souls.
But even IF they where, what the hell do they expect. No matter how much they may protest, they are not here to debate, they are here to criticise and ridicule Wenger at every turn and as such there sole intention is to inflame and enrage.
I find it intriguing the way that people talk about the manager and the players as if they know everything about them – as if the commenter is somehow omniscient. I watch the matches like you all do and there are times when we don’t do well but I am not always certain whether the reason is because the manager got it wrong or the players didn’t perform well. I am not omniscient nor was I in the changing room to hear what instructions were given nor on the training pitch to see what was practiced. Sometimes the other team was just better than us…
Some commenters seem to be using data with several unknown variables to decide whether or not a player of manager is doing their job. Some owners do the same thing and end up with several managers or scads of players on the payroll for extended periods of time. That is something you can do on a video game but imagine working in that environment? I suppose if you are being paid a lot you could feel good driving home in your Bentley but I am not sure I would want to stay around a long time. Strange, but even the players that left to win trophies with richer sides have generally only great things to say about M. Wenger.
Regarding the correlation with Mike Riley’s appointment in 2009, the article I wrote last March on penalties very clearly demonstrated that, since then, Arsenal have only received half as many penalties as they used to while conceding more. In NO season since 2009 have Arsenal been awarded more penalties than they conceded. For every other team the number of penalties awarded/conceded is approximately proportional to the number of goals they score/concede.
The likelihood of this arising by chance alone is infinitesimal.
This is fact. This is evidence. This is proof. QED.
And this is just an example. Similar research has been carried out related to cards per foul, fouls awarded/conceded and number of contact injuries.
The fact is that since 2009 things have gone very wrong with the officiating.
I am not normally one for conspiracy theories but this is undeniable through statistical evidence. If you disagree, come up with statistical evidence to the contrary. Otherwise your views in this regard are worthless.
Nick lee unlike you who uses lies and half truths when you state a fact every fact given on this site is backed up with everdence.
As for your bully boy tactics and name calling the only member of a cult is you .
Not only am i debating with a bunch of cult followers but a group who many haven’t seen highbury or the emirates.In fact most of you probably haven’t seen the united kingdom or know where the UK is.I am a footballing man ,i have played and watched english football on park pitches as well as been to most of the grounds in the uk.I read daily uk papers ,watch sky and like to think i know a little bit and have a small knowledge about football in this country and what makes real fans tick.It is easy to sit at your computer in india or belgium or mongolia and comment about arsenal and what we as fans should put up with but unless you are there you dont really know .
Nick Lee
Well that’s your CV out of the way.
Now how about answering a couple of simple questions.
Ah now we come to the real fans only from the UK and us foreigners being of minor worth 🙂
I am what you earthlings call an alien,I come from Alpha Centuri,(its like Disney land but worse) we get poor streaming but does that mean Im not longer considered an Arsenal fan? We aliens love Arsenal!!
We abducted one of you earthlings once, a strange man called David Icke we thought he was a Gooner, but he wasnt,he was a weirdo and sent him back in exchange for a picture of Willie Young.
I am from north London and unlike you I have supported arsenal since 1968.
So the fact that I think your comments are raceist and that you are an out and out idiot.
And like I said earlier you are a bully
Nick Lee as the United Kingdom is a county it should really start with capitols I see living in the UK hasn’t helped your writing of English.
I seem to remember you making fun of someone using bad English last week. Bully
Nick. I live in Essex. I was born in Islington and lived near Highbury Fields. I went to games with my Dad, Uncle & Brother. In the sixties. I Stood outside the Town Hall in 1971 when we won our first double, I was 7.
I played at a very good level in my teens & was lucky enough to spentd some time at a couple of well known clubs too. In my fifties and still playing.
Despite this, I accept that I am an amateur.
This is where you get it all wrong mate.
It is fine to have an opinion but yours is based on the fact that you believe you know best. So you judge Wenger by what you would do. Or your fellow agenda followers say. So you played a bit of park football, you watch TV. Perhaps you have gone an unbeaten season on that FIFA computer game thingy. Bizarrely, this very strange CV you have prepared in your mind, has created an incredible level of delusion & arrogance. You seem to believe you know more than a man that has achieved most things at the top of the game, while you push paper in your office. Truly unbelievable how arrogant some of you are. It is like someone attending a one day First Aid course and criticising the operating procedures of a Heart surgeon. It truly is beyond crazy.
Nick Lee, I am Uk born and happen to agree with a lot of what the fans on here from India, Belgium , Nigeria, USA, or wherever.
What has nationality got to do with it. Do uk citizens have a monopoly of all opinions Arsenal? Hope not because our greatest manager, and some of our greatest players are not from the UK.
Wonder where Chelsea or City would be without non UK influence?
Why nicky Lee….what a xenophobic, semi-racist, chauvinistic rant about you and ¨us smelly foreigners¨ who have never had occasion to watch the Arsenal live. Here are a few issues I have with you personally and your purported ¨true¨supporter status:
1) RedandDread at least posts in a civil and non-demeaning manner but you vaunt your ¨purity¨ and demean those who aren’t living in the UK….shame on you,as 90% of the Arsenal’s supporters live overseas you ignorant dolt.
2) After reciting your CV for us, explain how ou know so little about the Club, its manager and its history? IF you’ve been everywhere AFC have and supported them since a dog’s age but you still can’t seem to put too rational and salient statements together. your rant above is a perfect example of stupidity, ignorance,prejudice, denigration and perfidity and sums up your character clearly.
3) I am now more convinced than ever that you are a rather adolescent and immature wannabe ¨expert¨ whose sole reason to come on UA is to shit stir and be the ¨cat¨ among the pigeons so to speak. However you have been unmasked as the LeGrovel shite you are…..grow a pair,grow up and get a life.
4) By the way you write,it is clear that you don’t care for a dialogue but rather a monologue and rant. Walter and I together have more sense in our little toe than you have in that unbalanced mushroom you call a brain. I have been a professional referee and a passionate advocate of great Football since I began participating in my teens. I have seen a garbage truck’s worth of clowns like you pretend their views are more ¨valuable¨ than mine or others because they’re brits or from the ¨old country¨ but unfortunately for them….they were invariably wrong.
Anyway Walter and Tony, this nitwit has surely earned a banning from UA for his insulting and facist-like comments and since there are countless other sites he can troll who will ¨admire¨ his myopic view of all things Arsenal….I strongly suggest he get his ass kicked off UA and pointed towards those sewer sites asap. I am positive that the vast majority of the UA family will agree to that!
I knew that as soon as i saw Nick post “Why dont you move to the UK, seems like everyone else” the other day, that he was one of those ‘get those bloody foreigners out of my country’ types. His last comment has just confirmed that. This just shows that type of people that are in the aaa; stupid, short-sighted, ignorant (i cant stress this one enough) morons.
Just read my posts that should be evidence and racist
Now that he has shown his true colours, can he finally be banned? I have absolutely no time for xenophobes (specially the type that tries to hide it under the banner of pseudo-patriotism) and his presence will only cause further arguments.
Great article, to the point, based on facts – a typical Untold article. Thanks to the author.
Arsene Wenger said once that he does not judge a player by his passport. The same goes for an Arsenal supporter. All true Arsenal supporters deserve the name, wherever in the globe they are situated. And I speak as someone born in Britain who lives a very few miles from the Arsenal stadium.
I can’t claim to have played football, in the park or anywhere else, apart from kicking the ball for my son. But I still claim my right to be a supporter!
Wow exceptional racism! I’m from the UK citizen season ticket holder but I’m Chinese wonder if that makes me a good arsenal fan hmm and I thought racism didn’t exist!
Loved your comments jambug wengerson proud kev Mandy and Walter made me laugh
Didn’t expect that xenophobic statement….
Anyway, if that deluded person (I won’t call him supporter) thought Arsenal could survive financially without global revenue, he is out of his mind.
Bricked not here so here’s some jokes to lighten the mood
The seven dwarfs go to the Vatican , and because they are the seven dwarfs, they are immediately ushered in to see the Pope.
Grumpy leads the pack.
‘Grumpy, my son,’ says the Pope, ‘What can I do for you?’
Grumpy asks, ‘Excuse me your Excellency, but are there any dwarf nuns in Rome ?’
The Pope wrinkles his brow at the odd question, thinks for a moment and answers, ‘No, Grumpy, there are no dwarf nuns in Rome .’
In the background, a few of the dwarfs start giggling.
Grumpy turns around and glares, silencing them.
Grumpy turns back, ‘Your Worship, are there any dwarf nuns in all of Europe ?’
The Pope, puzzled now, again thinks for a moment and then answers, ‘No, Grumpy, there are no dwarf nuns in Europe .
‘This time, all of the other dwarfs burst into laughter.
Once again, Grumpy turns around and silences them with an angry glare.
Grumpy turns back and says, ‘Mr.. Pope! Are there ANY dwarf nuns anywhere in the world?’
The Pope, really confused by the questions says, ‘I’m sorry, my son, there are no dwarf nuns anywhere in the world.’
The other dwarfs collapse into a heap, rolling and laughing, pounding the floor, tears rolling down their cheeks, as they begin chanting……
‘Grumpy shagged a penguin!’
‘Grumpy shagged a penguin!’
Windows vs Ford
For all of us who feel only the deepest love and affection for the way computers have enhanced our
lives, read on:- At a recent computer expo. (COMDEX ),Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated, “If Ford had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1,000 miles to the
gallon.” In response to Bill’s comments, Ford issued a press release stating: If Ford had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics (and I just love
this part):
1… For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash………twice a day.
2…Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.
3…Occasionally your car would die on the free-way for no reason. You would have to pull to
the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue. For some reason you would simply accept this.
4.. Occasionally, executing a manoeuvre such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.
5…Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive – but would run on only five percent of the roads.
6….The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a
single “This Car Has Performed An Illegal Operation” warning light.
7…The airbag system would ask,”Are you sure?” before deploying.
8…Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.
9.. Every time a new car was introduced car buyers would have to learn how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.
10..You’d have to press the “Start” button to turn the engine off.
PS – I’d like to add that when all else fails, you could call “customer service” in some
foreign country and be instructed in some foreign language how to fix
your car yourself!
Please share this with your friends who love – but sometimes hate – their computer! .
Description: Description: cid:37A2FA5F-81F6-49A1-B496-9D49B80D64BC
This is a story about the bond formed between a little girl and a
group of building workers. It’s allegedly true and might help to confirm
your belief in the goodness of people and that there is hope for the human race………………..
A young family moved into a house next door to an empty plot. One day, a
gang of building workers turned up to start building on the plot.
The young family’s 5-year-old daughter naturally took an interest in all
the activity going on next door and started talking with the workers.
She hung around and eventually the builders, all with hearts of gold,
more or less adopted the little girl as a sort of project mascot. They
chatted with her, let her sit with them while they had tea and lunch
breaks, and gave her little jobs to do here and there to make her feel
important.
They even gave the child her very own hard hat and gloves, which thrilled
her immensely.
At the end of the first week, the smiling builders presented her with a
pay envelope – containing £5 in 50p coins. The little girl took
her ‘pay’ home to her mother who suggested that they take the money to the
bank the next day to open a savings account
At the bank, the female cashier was tickled pink listening to the little
girl telling her about her ‘work’ on the building site and the fact she
had a ‘pay packet’.
‘You must have worked very hard to earn all this’, said the cashier.
The little girl proudly replied, ‘Yes, I worked every day with Steve and
Billy and Mike. We’re building a big house.’
‘My goodness gracious,’ said the cashier, ‘And will you be working on the
house again next week?’
The child thought for a moment. Then she said seriously:
‘I think so. Provided those wankers at Jewson’s deliver the fucking
bricks on time.’
@ Va Cong – Some fine stuff , thanks .
Different strokes for different folks …
Nancy just received terrible news. Her beloved grandfather just passed away. She went straight to her grandparents’ house to visit her 92 year old grandmother and offer her some comfort.
When she asked how her grandfather died, her grandmother replied, “It was a heart attack, he got it while we were making love Saturday morning.”
Horrified, Nancy told her grandmother that 2 people nearing 100 years of age having sex would surely be asking for trouble.
church bells”Oh no, my dear, ” replied granny. “Many years ago, realizing our advanced age, we figured out the best time to do it was when the church bells would start to ring. It was just the right rhythm. Nice and slow and even. Nothing too strenuous, simply in on the Ding and out on the Dong.”
She paused, wiped away a tear and then continued, “And if that damned ice cream truck hadn’t come along, he’d still be alive today!”
Lost in translation –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77iH_7fTfE8
The Vagina –
The best engine in the world .
It can be started with one finger.
It is self lubricating.
It takes any size pistons , and it changes its own oil every 4 weeks.
Its a pity though that the management system is so fucking temperemental !
Brickfields Gunners – that is hillarious – management system indeed!
Good stuff brickfields
And to all of you who would like to kiss Bunkerinho’s ass – here is something quite interesting.
http://www.soccerissue.com/2015/01/02/will-the-real-jose-please-stand-up/
And now I had the chance to read the above thread and yes Nick Lee you are what would be called in the US (and I’m sorry for not being a UK native but I’m sure that I’ll be helped out) – WHITE TRASH or TRAILER TRASH.
You probably vote for the BNP. You probably didn’t finish high school, and if you did, it’s sure as shit you don’t have any academic accolades. In short, you are a biggot and more importantly, an idiot.
Goodbye. I hope you are banned from UA.
Stubbing it out !
An exhibitionist named Joe was preparing to board a flight to Atlanta. As he approached the open door of the plane at the end of the jet way, a very attractive flight attendant was collecting boarding passes.
As she reached toward him for his boarding pass, he opened his raincoat and exposed himself. “I’m sorry sir,” she said politely, “but you have to show me your ticket, not your stub.”
Cheers for the link to the “special brew” one TG,poor old HN, “what doesnt kill you makes you stronger “is a bit limited in its understanding.Ive often wondered what other clubs think of Mourinho.Bullies are alwyays frightened people.
As for last nights comments on this thread,it reminded me of an article published here on the 5th Sept.2010
untold-arsenal.com/archives/7477
It just reminded me of someone …
http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/
Pardon
A flat-chested woman was delighted when her Fairy Godmother said her breasts would increase in size every time a man said ‘Pardon’ to her.
She walked down the sidewalk, accidentally bumped into a man and he said, “Pardon me.” Her breasts instantly grew an inch and she was ecstatic. The next day, she bumped into a man in the grocery store, he begged her pardon and another inch was added to her breasts. She was in seventh heaven!
She walked into a Chinese restaurant, collided with a waiter who bowed and said, “A thousand pardons for my clumsy behavior.”
The next day, the headline in the local newspaper read, “Chinese Waiter Crushed to Death!”
@ All of you
Excerpt from article (untold-arsenal.com/archives/7477)-Racism among the Anti-Arsenal Arsenal blog:
Re: Blog site Le Grove
“Overall they are just a vile site with vile views, there is a great amount to say about them, however unlike a lot of their posters I have things to do but I felt I had to just say something to defend Arsenal and speak out against the racism and hate permitted on their site.”
Comments from the mad cult above:
Jammy J -“His last comment has just confirmed that. This just shows that type of people that are in the aaa; stupid, short-sighted, ignorant (i cant stress this one enough) morons.”
OMGarsenal – “I am now more convinced than ever that you are a rather adolescent and immature wannabe ¨expert¨ whose sole reason to come on UA is to shit stir and be the ¨cat¨ among the pigeons so to speak. However you have been unmasked as the LeGrovel shite you are…..grow a pair,grow up and get a life.”
omgarsenal – “Walter and I together have more sense in our little toe than you have in that unbalanced mushroom you call a brain.” “.I strongly suggest he get his ass kicked off UA and pointed towards those sewer sites asap.”
Tommygun – “And now I had the chance to read the above thread and yes Nick Lee you are what would be called in the US (and I’m sorry for not being a UK native but I’m sure that I’ll be helped out) – WHITE TRASH or TRAILER TRASH.”
Essentially these comments are aimed at man who dared to question the general viewpoint on this site that Arsenals shortcomings on the trophy front in recent years are:
(a) A result of certain clubs having more money than Arsenal, & a
(b) A Mike Riley inspired referee conspiracy that has been in place since he took over the PGMOL
Whereas he was unwise to make comments regarding the nationality of certain Arsenal fans, I believe he was just trying to point out that if you’re part of the local fabric, English, been associated with Arsenal for a long time and understand a segment of English fans mentality then you might think differently to someone who is supporting the club via TV, radio & internet from afar.
It appears that anyone opposing your viewpoints, some of which are quite honestly absurd (namely point b), is labelled as an idiot, a racist, a bully, White trash, Chelsea lover but never a concerned Arsenal fan.
I don’t see any willingness to engage in sensible discussion re the managers tactics, recruitment policy nor his absolute control at Arsenal. Every questioning viewpoint is shot down with some reference to, oiler money, referee conspiracy, injuries or some other excuse.
TBH, I actually thought this site was pretty interesting, particularly on the referee analysis (which most people believe is just down to incompetence and not some evil anti-Arsenal agenda) and learning about the history of Arsenal. However, on the subject of Arsene Wenger there appears to be an unwavering, almost blind, support for a man whose record in recent years can only be described as average at best and whose managerial capability to compete with the best has been questioned by not only arm chair pundits, but ex-players & other managers. Much like yourselves, when Arsene has been questioned about his tactical approach in recent times he has been rather snide, demeaning and ready to cite his many achievements and longevity without addressing the subject matter. “I’ve been a manager for 18 years at this club, don’t you think I know what I’m doing”-much like you lot, not answering the question.
Walter, I posed a valid question yesterday regarding certain issues which many fans, media, ex-players, ex-managers managers have. Your three replies are as follows:
1. “To your point 3: since 6 years you say about our injury record. And you are right that is since 2009. Any coincidence that it is the year that Mike Riley became head of the referees? The one with the blueprint on how to beat Arsenal by kicking them to pieces and how to tilt the pitch to the extreme? No it is probably the foult of AW how Riley acted that day?”
I was shocked that a grown man could actually believe this. The only part of this I could relate was the reference to the UTD. game in 2004 when Riley gave a horrendous performance.
2. ” I also suggest to read the Rangers articles on the site since 2009. And then tell us to spend all the money yesterday as if there is no tomorrow. If AW would have spend all the money on players that people like you said he should buy there would be no Ozil or Alexis at Arsenal and no more trophies than we won now”
At no point did this begin to address the point I made in my post.
3. “As the two moaners seem to think I am insane I will no longer reply to them 😉
When I have a bit of time it is actually a nice way to pass the time but who am I to stop them from being unhappy.”
And then this. So the two issues you replied to were the ones to with referees (where you have implied their is a Mike Riley led conspiracy) and money with some tenuous link to Rangers. At no time did you address the matter of perceived tactical failings, a flawed recruitment policy, his inability to develop a better defensive structure for the team, an ongoing injury crisis (ongoing for many years). These are valid concerns that many Arsenal fans have, not only those that want Wenger out. However, much like our Arsene does, it was met with a wink and a snub
Whereas I do not agree with all the viewpoints on other Arsenal sites (and if you think Le Grove is anti-Wenger then you should visit Arsenal Truth), they are all raising valid points which the an increasing amount of people in the football world wonder about also. However, it appears that many on this site, much like our leader are unwilling to discuss.
ReadorDead
I have tried to engage in ‘sensible’ debate with you regarding your dismissal of the relevance of the oil money with the following:
“”jambug
January 6, 2015 at 8:18 pm
RedandDread
With your seemingly obsessive need to dismiss the ‘oilers’ money as merely a trifling irrelevance I posted this elsewhere.
“”It always makes me laugh when people try to say the money makes no difference.
Just 2 things for starters:
a)If the money makes no difference then why the f**k spend it then ?
b) And who’s going to tell Roman he’s poured a Billion quid down the drown because the special one could of won it all without it……….except he didn’t did he, and no, he’s not that special until he does.
THEN FOLLOWING NO REPLY, THIS:
I have to say I’m a bit disappointed really.
Even though my 2 questions above where not directed at anyone by name, I would of thought at least ONE particular individual would of been keen to put me straight.
Oh well, it seems those that think the money makes no difference have no explanation as to why it gets spent anyway.
Poor old Roman, he must be gutted he spent all that money for no reason at all.
Unless somebody to can explain otherwise.””
Well knows your chance.
Why the f**k do they spend it ??””
As yet, despite all your words above you have not answered the question.
@R&D -Have a look at the comments on JustArsenal, on anyone of their articles and tell me that it isnt full of ignorant morons. Heres a comment from the first article i clicked on (the article is referring to a transfer rumour);
“I believe strongly that Just Arsenal is controlled by Wenger and Company to spread these silly rumors to keep fans amused and distracted. Look at the number of polayers linked with Arsenal for the past few years transfer window, and the number is Astronomical!!! what we get insted, KK, Welback(last day, due to Falcao deal to MU), and few youngsters.
This man Wenger is a sick, eggoistic, stubborn Ba$$$tard, and as usual he plays this game every transfer window, and at the end he does what he planned to do which is NOTHING!!!! Just look at last summer window, he sold Vermaeleen, Loaned out Jenkinso, did not buy any, and made our defense laughing stock of the whole EPL. We are officially a mid table team incapable beating any top 6!!! Arsenal fans please, please stop this nonsense, these rumors are targeted to fool you another time like he did it in the past 10 year. Concentrate on the bigger issue in hand which is Wenger himself. He should be kicked out of Arsenal, becuase he will NOT leave on his own. Only a decent individual will do that which Wenger is not.
I have no hope, and have minimum trust in him. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, he did it many many times so shame on us . “Enough is Enough, Wenger out”
@ jambug
No one has ever said that the money hasn’t made a difference but what many quarters are saying is that it is not the sole reason for the inadequacies on the football field that Arsenal have shown in recent years. However, after a certain time if you call wolf too often, then no one wants to believe you anymore. In specific, money had nothing to do with our inability to win the league last season. A season that saw us beaten badly at the home of all our rivals-defeats that in the end cost us our title challenge. Remember we have been milking the CL money for a much longer time than City-Everton had no CL money nor oil money and Liverpool had no oil money (admittedly, they had a less strenuous schedule due to lack of CL). Money had no say in the chronic injury situation facing our players, a situation that has seen us lose major players for long periods, season after season (and this doesn’t have anything to do with Mike Riley and his Arsenal kickers brigade-ask Theo Walcott, or Mesut Ozil, or Mikel Arteta or Laurent Koscielny.)
Everyone acknowledges the impact oil money has had but it certainly doesn’t explain why we have capitualated in each of our last 3 title challenges, nor why we cannot seem to resolve our chronic injury crisis, nor why we concede silly goals and make so many defensive errors or find it difficult to stop opponents heading the ball into the back of our net.
In other words-at some stage you have to look at the football reasons and not just blame the outside influences. Is it the Qatari’s fault, or Roman’s billions that Arsenal cannot defend well enough to challenge the best teams in the world.
@ Jammy J
Are your comments any better. Seems the pot is calling the kettle black to me. Trust me some of the posts on this site are no better than the one you have quoted. There are good and bad posters on all Arsenal sites.
ReadandDead
And as for this !!
“And then this. So the two issues you replied to were the ones to with referees (where you have implied their is a Mike Riley led conspiracy) and money with some tenuous link to Rangers. At no time did you address the matter of perceived tactical failings, a flawed recruitment policy, and his inability to develop a better defensive structure for the team, an ongoing injury crisis (ongoing for many years). These are valid concerns that many Arsenal fans have, not only those that want Wenger out. However, much like our Arsene does, it was met with a wink and a snub
Whereas I do not agree with all the viewpoints on other Arsenal sites (and if you think Le Grove is anti-Wenger then you should visit Arsenal Truth), they are all raising valid points which the an increasing amount of people in the football world wonder about also. However, it appears that many on this site, much like our leader are unwilling to discuss.”
That statement is simply ridiculous.
Point by point:
1-(where you have implied their is a Mike Riley led conspiracy)
Implied?
Not implied at all. Openly claimed and supported with data that indicates our treatment from referees has changed quite dramatically since his tenure began, such as less penalties for, more against, more cards per foul etc. etc. just for starters.
2-and money with some tenuous link to Rangers.
How tenuous? A discussion about money within football and the resultant perils and pitfalls would surely be remiss NOT to mention the likes of Rangers, Leeds United etc. wouldn’t they?
3- At no time did you address the matter of perceived tactical failings.
Perceived? By who? You? Nick lee?
By tactics all you are really doing is moaning about the defence isn’t it, which has been countered many many times on here. To say it’s not been addressed/answered is just not true.
4-flawed recruitment policy,
The recruitment ‘policy’ as you call it, is directly linked with finances and has been discussed many many times. Again, to suggest that it hasn’t is simply not true.
5-develop a better defensive structure for the team
See point 3
6- an on going injury crisis (on going for many years).
This has been done to death on here. From the impact lenient refereeing has. To the new fitness coach. I myself was involved in a long debate touching on the management of player recovery and return to first team football, but as we are nearly all just laymen speaking here, it is all just opinion and speculation in any case.
But yet again, to suggest it has in some way been avoided is just NOT TRUE.
Then you finish with this grandiose statement…..
7-These are valid concerns that many Arsenal fans have, not only those that want Wenger out.
…….inferring that Untold Arsenal are the only people not willing to discus these issues.
You are unbelievable, simply unbelievable.
@R&D – Im gonna just back out of this. I think almost all of your comments are completely wrong and im sure you believe them to be completely right, so this is absolutely no reason to carry this one any further.
ReadorDean
You say:
Everyone acknowledges the impact oil money.
You don’t, or at least all you do is try to trivialise it, because you go on to repeat the exact same things you’ve been saying for the last few days, which have been countered and discussed many many times.
Then you say nobody answers you.
As I say in my post at 2:29, every point you make has been countered and debated on here numerous times.
You may not be convinced by the arguments, I hardly thought you would be as you are as set in your anti Wenger ways as we are in our pro Wenger ways, but this is a pro Wenger site so it’s hardly a surprise we are mostly are of a common view.
You on the other hand have been asked to explain, what with your strong held views, exactly why you insist on inhabiting a site so opposed to your views.
I’ve used analogyies abound to try and obtain an explanation from you and Nick for your presence here without success.
As we seem to of reached such a profound impasse, perhaps now would be a good time to explain, because our wittering’s must be driving you as mad as yours are us.
RedandDread
Your wasting your time with this bunch of zombies.All your points are valid and at any other club the manager would be held responsible for the failings over the last few years.Not here mediocrity is rewarded with pay rises and new contracts.
The racist has it in for Zombies now.
Even the dead aren’t safe from this mans prejudice.
Lets hope he doesn’t develop a dislike for the colour Red or his mate could be for the chop !!
Hey saint Nick……..why are YOU wasting your time on UA, slither back to LeGrovel and stop whining about how badly you’re treated here……in actual fact maybe RedandDread and Nicky-boy are one and the same? It wouldn’t be the first time a Groveler tried that one, right Tony and Walter?
Jampot why do you call me a racist??All i was doing was stating facts i haven’t called anyones religion or race.I stated that a lot of people who post on here are from abroad and thus dont have the perspective on the uk game as someone who lives here.If you were indian,lived in india and was on an indian cricket messageboard i wouldnt be arguing with you about indian cricket because i dont know the culture of indian cricket and know what their fans think and the way rival fans think.
I also understand where red is coming from.He has been called because of his football beliefs on here.He pays good money to watch arsenal and to be called an AAA by some who have never played the game and certainly havent watched a game of football live never mind seen arsenal play i find insulting also.
Its not just Jambug that thinks your a racist i can assure you. You didnt out and out say it, but with the language you used, it is clear to anyone with half a brain that your a xenophobe.
Well that rules you out jammy cos you haven’t got half a brain.
Nick Lee
And as for this statement:
.”….to be called an AAA by some who have never played the game and certainly havent watched a game of football live never mind seen arsenal play i find insulting also.”
How on earth can you make such sweeping statements when you know absolutely nothing about people, save what they wish to reveal on here?
Conversely I could say I find it insulting to be spoken down to by a self righteous, pompous half wit like yourself, but you’d probably get all offended and run off crying to your little mate.
Genius..
I haven’t laughed so much in ages.
I think Rd & Dread has a right to his views, he certainly avoids the confrontational language of young Nick.
Red has mentioned the chronic injury crisis – without realising that he is actually defending Wenger. Let’s face it, Arsene must get realy ticked off that he can’t work on the training ground with his best players and pick his best team. For whatever the reasons are, Arsenal have had injuries to very important players on a regular basis. This has weakened the team.
The problem we have is that those who dislike wenger use injuries to beat him up. They blame him for them. On the other hand, those of us who support the manager feel these injuries are unlucky. We point to the fact that Arsenal has a team of medical professionals and that it is not wenger.
There is no evidence to suggest wenger himself injures players. None. If there is, nobody has produced it. Simply posting a link to a league table of injuries is not evidence. Try that in a court of law.
Man Utd are suffering a lot of i juries, Man City too, are these all incompetent and need of help from an office worker that makes comments on a blog?
I personally believe the disgraceful tackle that smashed Eduardo’s leg in half lost us a title. I genuinely believe that.
The tackle that put Jack out by McNair, is included in the league table of injuries, so too was Theo’s injury. Debuchy landing awkwardly etc. When the amount of games missed is totalled, it included Ramsey and Eduardo’s time out of the game.
With any statistical breakdown you need to apply weighting. This is how you conduct intelligent analysis.
Therefore, in order for me to believe arsenal football club is at fault, I need a medical & sports scientist (not some bloke on a blog who thinks he is an expert) to analyse EACH injury and assess who was responsible.
If not, then I refuse to believe Arsene Wenger is responsible for our ‘chronic injury crisis’ as described by Red. I will continue to sympathise with the Manager and the club for these injuries, that prevent us from playing our best players and which are a large contributory factor to the reason we do not ahve as many points as we ‘would’.
Bank on it .
A man and a woman meet in an elevator. “Where are you heading today?” the man asks.
“I’m going down to give blood.”
“How much do you get paid for giving blood?”
“About $20.”
“Wow,” says the man, “I’m going up to donate sperm, and the sperm bank pays $100.” The woman angrily gets off the elevator.
The next day, the man and woman meet in the elevator again.
“Fancy meeting you again. Where you off to today?”
“Sperm bank,” she says with her mouth full.
The pissing contest.
A certain couple loved to compete with each other , comparing their achievements in every aspect of their lives : salaries , athletic abilities , social accomplishments , and so on.
Everything was a contest , and the husband sank into a deep depression because he had yet to win a single one.
Finally , he sought professional counsel,explaining to the shrink that while he wouldn’t mind losing once in a while, his unbroken string of defeats had him pretty down.
“Simple enough. All we have to do is devise a game that you can’t possibly lose.”
The shrink thought for a moment , then proposed a pissing contest. “Whoever can pee higher on the wall wins – and how could any woman win ?”
Running home , the husband called up, ” Darling , I’ve got a new game !”
” Oooh , I love games ,” she squealed , running down the stairs. “What is it?”
“C’mon out here ,” he instructed, pulling her around the patio.” We’re going to stand here,piss on this wall , and whoever makes the highest mark wins.”
” What fun ! I’ll go first.” The woman proceeded to lift her dress, then her leg , and pee on the wall about six inches up from the ground . She turned to him expectantly.
” Okay , now its my turn ,” said the beleaguered husband eagerly .He unzipped his fly, pulled out his penis ,and was just about to pee when his wife interrupted.
” Hang on a sec,” she called out .” No hands allowed !”