By Tony Attwood
A poster on X recently wrote…
- Time per Liverpool corner: – 22 seconds – 34 seconds – 18 seconds
- Time for Raya yellow card for time wasting: – 19 seconds
The writer who noted those times then followed up those statistics with the comment “It’s pre-meditated.”
I was grateful to read those statistics, but I can’t agree with the conclusion if it suggests that this was pre-meditated by the ref. For pre-meditated suggests it is planned by the referee – he knows in advance he is going to help Liverpool to get away with it. But it could well be planned by players who know how the ref will respond.
Thus such a state of affairs might come about through incompetence, or it might be that the bias is sub-conscious while the reporting could well be simply copycat, but it is being used by some clubs In this case, Liverpool are seen as a fair-minded team, and indeed are promoted as such by some journalists, although without anything by way of evidence which compares the club to other clubs. And the reverse might be true.
That situation reveals simple copycat journalism set out in order to get an article off to the sports editor as fast as possible, before moving on to the next piece.
The result of such actions can be seen in the correspondence column here. For if you follow some of the comments on this site, you may well have noted one correspondent writing in what has become a typical fashion, abusing us for even raising the issue that something is not right, but without providing any evidence to support the correspondent’s case.
On the other hand, I don’t think we’ve had anyone take up the issue of why David Coote last season saw over half of all the matches he controlled as home wins, while Jarred Gillett saw almost half the games he controlled as away wins. While Anthony Taylor saw over half the games he controlled as draws. And these are all referees overseeing more than 20 Premier League games.
To put it another way, if the away team is told that Darren England is the referee, they know they should play 11 behind the ball and go for a draw, because judging by his figures they ain’t gonna get a win. While a home team seeing they have Robert Jones knows to go full-on to score and then just hold onto that winning position, since Mr Jones very rarely oversees a game in which the away team picks up points.
But this is not to say that there is deliberate bias. As the research undertaken during the pandemic shows, referees are influenced by the crowd. But since then referees have changed – some taking no notice of the research and still being influenced by the home crowd, while others are fighting against that influence so much, they bend over backwards to help the away team along.
However, even in these circumstances, I don’t think the referee actually knows he’s doing it. Which is yet another reason why a) the PGMO needs to be brought under control perhaps by being overseen by an outside independent controller. Or if you prefer Nanny. And b) an attempt needs to be made to educate the journalists who make fun of Arsenal fans who suggest anything is wrong with refereeing and show them that quite a few of us are looking at this seriously.
The simple fact is there is no proper discussion of refereeing in the Premier League, Just consider the basic facts.
First here we have a monopoly supplier of referees that has basically said it has run out of money. How can that be other than through corruption or incompetence?
Second, here is a monopoly supplier of an important commodity which has no public face and allows no media engagement with it – unlike in other countries where the referee can give interviews after the game.
Third, there is a media which unwittingly or wittingly supports the stance of PGMO by utterly refusing to engage in the debate. The key point is not that some Arsenal fans think Referee X is biased, or that some fans of another club think that Referee Y is biased. It is the fact that the media won’t engage in any sort of debate at all. Not even, how come the referee answers questions on TV after the game in Germany, but is even told which car he is to be driven away from the ground in, in England?
Simply laughing at anyone who raises the issue of referee competence is playing into the hands of the ultra-secretive PGMO, and is exactly what they want. Likewise suggesting that there is clearly bias, doesn’t get us anywhere, because those who laugh at this and call it a “conspiracy theory” are already fairly numerous.
The only way forward is to try and fix this by having a much more open PGMO, enough referees so that no club sees the same ref more than twice in a season, and far better training for referees so that we stop having obvious “home club” referees and equally obvious “away club” referees.
The way I see it, the entire refereeing system and rules is set up to permit biases etc. In order for the game to be fair, you must remove as much judgement as possible and let the teams decide how they want to play.
What I mean is, in terms of fairness for example the delaying restart rule is set up to be unfair. It would be simpler to say if the player kicks the ball 1.5 seconds or 1 seconds after the whistle is blown he will be penalized for delaying the restart. This gives teams the right to now, be clever or to be stupid. What would them happen is that the referees judgement call is no longer required and every team can be treated equally.
We could go through all the rules and convert 90% of them to be more objective and less subjective thereby removing elreferees from the centre stage and leaving the players and teams to make use of the rules as they see fit. There is absolutely no need to micromanage the way the game is played.
In my view, the referees are upset at Arteta for exposing their bias or ineptitude, and they are thus seizing every opportunity to punish Arsenal. I think the gunners can forget any domestic silverware this season and focus on Europe.
One thing is absolutely certain.” We are reffed differently “.Why?There are numerous examples of this that cannot be explained by simply saying we’re paranoid.
Guys, any reader whichever club you support,
I’m wondering if this systematic display of refereeing incompetence we have been witnessing soince the start of the season is limited to Arsenal being mishandled, or if there are other clubs whose fans have the ‘feeling’ that their club is being treated the same way.
Let us know, we’ll look into it.
Chris, whilst the particular bias against Arsenal is, in my view. consistent and has been evident for years, I am sure that you are correct that other clubs have been screwed by PGMOL on occasions. If recent memory is correct, Wolves seem to have been the victim of unfair refereeing on quite a few occasions.
Sally Pally suggested this in the previous thread, noting that established bias, from which everyone knows Man Utd were the notorious beneficiaries, now can be seen to favour 115 City. Taylor on Sunday may have been pro-City in favouring a draw between their two main rivals, rather than necessarily pro-Liverpool. However, would he have denied Liverpool a late goal or denied them a clear corner? We will never know, but may well have our suspicions.
First off I have to say that the time given on X is incorrect. I have taken a look it was on 30 seconds when Raya was carded. This isn’t to say that all this isn’t still a crock of shit, because it is, but if we are going to look at this objectively we need to get the facts correct.
By coincidence there was an article on the topic of goal kicks, and how long teams took over them, in The Sun just recently, and the findings taken from Opta are very interesting.
The Sun starts with the observation that “it appears there is a trend for some of the best teams in the division to take longer between a goal kick being awarded it and being taken, suggesting it’s a smart tactic not to rush them”.
These are just a few of the stats, with the full list of teams in the article I’ve linked at the bottom:
-Manchester City have the longest delay in taking their goal kicks this season, with an average time of 39.3 seconds.
-Arsenal rank second in this regard, with the Gunners taking 37.8 seconds on average to take a goal kick.
– Ipswich take 37.7 seconds
-Newcastle take 35.3 seconds.
-Brighton, Manchester United and Liverpool taking 18.5, 20.3 and 21.5 seconds.
-Tottenham are the team that takes the shortest time at just 16.9 seconds on average
So, despite Man city’s recent protestations about Arsenal and their ‘Dark Arts’ it is in fact they who waste the most time at Goal kicks with an average time taken of 39.3 seconds. Nearly 10 seconds longer than the time Taylor booked Raya for.
And lets not forget, that is an AVERAGE TIME TAKEN by Man city, so obviously they often take even longer.
As such, it would be interesting to know how many cards they have received for time wasting? I think we all know the answer to that don’t we.
Lets also not forget that that average is not for a team under duress. Hanging in there under pressure. That time is for a team very rarely in such a position. They just do so as a matter of course. Game management you might call it. Exactly what we got all the abuse for up at the Etihad.
If you look at my link you will see every teams times, which I have averaged out at 28.29 seconds.
Raya was therefor booked at what is the AVERAGE time taken over a goal kick in the premier league as a whole, and at a time that was nowhere near Man City’s AVERAGE.
The article was Published on the 21 Sep 2024 by Tony Robertson, who is the Suns Digital Sports Reporter apparently
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/30575410/average-time-premier-league-team-goal-kick-genuis-tactic/
Before I go, and given it is media darlings Man City that are time waster in-chiefs, I think it’s interesting to note The Suns initial comment that, “When it comes to Man City taking goal kicks, IT’S A SMART TACTIC NOT RUSH THEM.
So SMART when it’s Man City, DARK ARTS when it’s Arsenal.
Two sets of rules: One for Arsenal. One for the rest.
Two ways of reporting. One for Arsenal. One for the rest.
I am surprised the author of this article has not picked up on the northern bias the PGMOL has installed with regards to the recruitment of referees.
Seventeen of the twenty premiership referees are located north of Nottingham and the other three are located in the South West.
Eleven of the twenty reside in the Liverpool – Manchester area.
Not ONE referee is located in the South of England, Greater London, The South East, East Anglia and the Midlands south of Nottingham – a catchment area of approximately 35 million people.
You have a situation that conjures up conflicts of interest – the perfect example was the VAR official for the Bournemouth Vs Arsenal – a lifelong Liverpool fan.
My opinion is that it is incompetence – pure and simple. I don’t think that PGMOL possess the required intelligence for it to be corruption.
Me2
“My opinion is that it is incompetence – pure and simple. I don’t think that PGMOL possess the required intelligence for it to be corruption.”
If it was purely incompetence then surely we would have just as many bad calls go our way as against us, no?
Of course we’ve had the odd few decisions go our way over the years, but nothing like the amount that go against us. And when they do go our way, don’t we know about it!!
Your point about the geographical bias is a good one, but being new here (I’m guessing) you wouldn’t know, but it has been highlighted many many times, though as you say not in this particular article.
As you say, another disgraceful bias, and another one that goes totally un questioned by the media.
Just a thought if PGMOL are soon to be bankrupt, could this mean that some refs that may have been paid hush money, finally speak up?
I have sadly believed for a long time certain refs have it in for Arsenal going back to the mike dean show in 2008 .Sadly now it seems all refs are following the same path when they ref our games . At least 3 fouls yesterday merited yellow cards van dyke ,nunez x2 who only got a yellow in the 93rd minute where as we have had 3 players sent off for minor infringements no matter what the pgmol says and are getting players hurt again and again refs turn a blind eye when it suits like taylor yesterday when the donkey nunez kept clattering our players and gesturing play on ,funny how quickly he called a foul when the ball ended in the pool net for what should have been the winner and var went missing again .Regardless of the outcome of the 115 charges I think pgmol will make sure we have lost enough points to make sure any points deduction against city will not matter to the final table , as Del boy used to say everyones a winner meaning city sky and pgmol.
PGMOL probably can’t afford to run a website, and even if they could, there would be no useful information on it. They have an account on X.com, but it contains no information relating to their PL activities this month. Even more telling is the fact that they have disabled replies to their tweets.
One of their recent Tweets announces Howard Webb’s appearance on the “Stick to Football” podcast “brought to you by Sky Bet”. You couldn’t make it up.
@Nitram,
2 sets of rules… right on !
I am quoting a Twitter/X post here :
“When Arsenal drew at The Etihad last season and City were missing a couple of players, there was so much noise about it being a bad result for Arsenal, and how Arsenal should’ve gone all out to win the game, weak mentality etc etc
Yet when Liverpool played for over 20 minutes against this, and really didn’t push for a winner that would have taken them 7 points clear of us, there is absolutely none of that scrutiny, and the talk is back on Arsenal and how injuries aren’t an excuse?”
Humour me… click on the link please : https://x.com/Rory_Talks_Ball/status/1850882544113233968
As far as I am concerned, the way the team handles shit thrown at them this season is just brilliant. And I am talking mainly about the players. Partey at right back ? No fear !
2 highschool kids playing the last 15 minutes or so ? No fear !
Merino ? Better by the day !
Saka ? no comment !
Havertz ? Fight fight fight !
etc…
And for all these ‘critics’, that was 14 straight games against TOP 6 opposition without losing. Please read again.
So, yeah I’m still having fun watching them amidst all the BS thrown at us and will keep on doing so. 5 points behind in october, so what. Our injured players are going to come back for the december/january roller-coaster fitter then the competition. Think about that.
By the way, we’ve got Sky Sports criticizing the referee on tape….
https://x.com/SkySportsNews/status/1850860079743942776
Are they going to lose their licence ? or maybe they risk nothing as PGMOL is broke and can’t afford lawyers….
Chris
Good points. All, totally overlooked by the agenda ridden media.
@Nitram, 2 sets of rules… right on !
And like yourself I want to reiterate the point that was at the heart of my post above regarding Goal Kick times.
Raya was yellow carded after 30seconds. The AVERAGE time it takes for a goal kick in the Premier League.
The reason it is so important is because there, in one moment, is the epitome of what we keep saying about how subjectivity in the rules is used as a way to treat us differently.
Yes, 30 seconds is over the 15 seconds *’rule of thumb’ time allowed for a goal kick.
*(there is no actual time specified in the rules, which leaves it up to the referees discretion. Oh don’t they just love that)
So, okay by the ‘rule of thumb’, or the referees ‘discretion’, or letter of the law (although in reality there is no law!) it can be argued the yellow was justified.
Much like our cards for time wasting/kicking the ball away.
The question is, why are we held to these exacting standards on so many occasions when clearly nobody else is?
TWO SETS OF RULES
@Nitram,
what is not said either is how the situation is on the field. Are the players being harrassed by the defense so none is free ? Or is the goalie just munching on his sandwich, texting is wag or counting grass leaves…. No context ever given.
@ Chris
It so utterly typical that when Dermot Gallagher was asked “did you think it was a foul [by Kiwior]?” His reply was, something like “it could have gone either way, so if the ref gives it as a foul, it’s a foul”. This is so typical, he wouldn’t even admit he didn’t think it was a foul but merely gave an excuse to justify the ref giving it.
@ Nitram
“Yes, 30 seconds is over the 15 seconds *’rule of thumb’ time allowed for a goal kick.” I’m a bit confused by that. Where does the 15 seconds rule of thumb come from? Given you also said earlier, “Tottenham are the team that takes the shortest time at just 16.9 seconds on average.” That would make the rule of thumb 15 seconds actually below the lowest average of any team!!!
@ Richard
Couldn’t agree more with your idea of taking referee discretion out of the game as much as possible.
I’ve always been a great believer of having a timekeeper and when the ball is dead, the clock stops until the ball is live again. All the arguments are gone then whether it’s time taken at dead ball situations, the number of substitutions in the last five minutes, the amount of time a player takes to leave the pitch when substituted or whether someone is wasting time (or not) going down with cramp. The time thing is a simple one and 100% foolproof….hence it doesn’t get introduced.
One rule that the referees said they were going to reinforce vigorously a few years back was booking any player who didn’t retreat 10 yards immediately a free kick was awarded. They booked anybody and everybody for a few games and then as soon as players started towing the line they stopped booking them…..and so we have the same problem back again……and referees use their discretion to book who they choose whilst not actually “applying the laws of the game” to everyone!!
All the fuss about the natural position of the hand, or whether there was intent, or whether it was ball to hand allows referees the option to interpret the rules as they choose. In field hockey, if the ball hits your foot it’s a free kick whether it’s intentional of accidental. No discretion, the same rule for everybody. The problem is, referees want the option of interpreting things for themselves, they welcome subjectivity as it gives them power and then when they are called out for having made a bad call, they come up with all sorts of reasons why they were correct and had no choice but to “apply the laws of the game” just as they did by sending off Van Dijk for twice deliberately kicking Havertz off the ball…….oh wait!!!
Chris
On that, as pointed out in the Sun Article, it is, broadly speaking, the better teams taking the longer times over free kicks. Though obviously not an exact science I believe that is due to the way teams, especially the more skilful teams, play out from the back.
In the ‘good old days’ it didn’t take long to just roll the ball to the corner of the six yard box and ‘hoof’ it upfield. Same plan every time.
Now ‘playing out’ from the back is a science. A dangerous science. Get it right and the rewards can be high. Get it wrong and it can be a catastrophe.
The keeper cant just lay a short ball across the box if everybody isn’t ‘set’. What seems a good idea suddenly isn’t when the right winger hasn’t dropped or is under duress. Take it from the other side. What seemed a good idea isn’t if the opposition suddenly put on a big press. Change of mind. Put one over the top.
My point is that a goal kick in your own box is now much more akin to a free kick outside the oppositions box.
As teams play now, your players need to be ‘set’ for a goal kick in the same way they have to be set for a free kick, and nobody expects a freekick outside the box to be taken within 15 seconds. Even 30 seconds.
Playing out from the back. High press. High reward. High jeopardy. Personally, I think that’s why goal kicks take so long.
Maybe a rethink is needed as to how much time is allowed for a goal kick?
Mikey
“I’m a bit confused by that. Where does the 15 seconds rule of thumb come from?”
I remembered it wrong, it’s actually 30 seconds, and I should of called it ‘Natural time’ and it was from some research I did for an article I wrote back on the 9th of August 2023 regarding added on time after another mis-informed whinge from Guardiola. He was throwing his toys out of the pram again, this time complaining about the about of time added on at the end of our Community Shield match. During my research I found some analysis that had been carried out by the statistical analysis website FiveThirtyEight.
From the article:
During the World Cup back in 2018, the statistical analysis website FiveThirtyEight decided to take a look at the amount of stoppage time being added to games
They allowed a certain amount of ‘natural’ time before it was adding time to their stoppages. The ‘natural’ time was based on the average length of time taken for each activity, which were as follows:
Event Average Time Taken In Seconds
Throw-in……….. 20
Warning………. 30
Goal-Kick……. 30
Corner Kick….. 45
Free-Kick……… 60
Penalty………… 60
Altercation……. 30
Arguing With Offical 30
In other words, if there was a penalty given and it took two minutes to be taken, only the second minute would be counted as an ‘excessive stoppage’.
—-That is from the article, and ever since then I have pretty much used those times as a guideline to what is an acceptable amount of time to be taken for each event before it is considered excessive, or ‘time wasting’. They called it ‘natural’ time.
As you can see, the average of 30 seconds for a goal kick, as revealed by OPTA recently, hasn’t changed since 2018, so I think you’d agree it’s fair to say, 30 seconds isn’t excessive.
So why was Raya Yellow carded for taking what at least two sets of research has shown to be the average/natural time for a goal kick to be taken since at least 2018
This is the link to the old article entitled ‘Time added on: how Guardiola and Smith conspired to be quite wrong’ if you want a look: https://untold-arsenal.com/archives/102767
The people who should read these comments are the ones at Pigmol ( sp. deliberate). I’ve been an Arsenal fan since 1946 and I believe English referees are the worst that I can remember. Their lack of accountability is farcical. Even when in the rare instance where they admit a mistake they offer an apology. Points given to the aggrieved would be more appropriate as recompense. There is nothing to say a game is only worth 3 points when obvious mistakes are made. People are awarded damages in a court of law retroactively so why can’t that be done in football. It doesn’t always have to be done in real time.