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October 2016
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Why the next Arsenal manager has to be the best the club has ever had.

By Tony Attwood

If you are a regular reader of Untold you’ll know about my interest in the way that football is portrayed in the media.   While of course like every other supporter of Arsenal I wanted a stunning victory on Sunday and was disappointed, there is one tiny crumb of comfort from the affair, for it gives us a chance to observe the media, the aaa and the bloggettas in full cry against Arsenal.

Like I say, I’d sooner not have the chance to observe them, but since it is happening all around us, I’ll take the opportunity of watching the hounds baying for blood.

You might recall that I’ve written in the past about how even tiny details can change the perception of the game.  For example we can note the way that time wasting by goal keepers is never shown on TV and is replaced by pictures of the player who led the last attack, trotting back towards the half way line, and then the re-showing of the last attack.

There’s a reason for that, of course, because TV can re-show such incidents and can pick up issues that might have been missed – but nevertheless such cutting away from the live action to the recording does give a wholly false impression of how the match is being played, and how it is being refereed.

Moving forwards I was particularly frustrated with the way the media (and here include the newspapers as well as TV) dealt with the Barcelona match.  For the people in the ground the key issue was the referee.   But for people watching on TV, and then taking the news from the newspapers’ web sites, there was no referee issue.

By chance I have recently discovered something else that adds to the debate, while researching the current series on the 1970s that is running on the Arsenal History Society website.

Last week I wrote and published article 22 in the series: July to Dec 1978. Surviving without Macdonald and here’s a little extract…  It relates to the match on 2 December 1978, in which Arsenal beat Liverpool 1-0 at Highbury.  It reads thus…

“The other post-match criticism was perhaps more interesting and less expected – for perhaps the first time the papers questioned why TV had edited out a number of the more rumbustious tackles from Liverpool….”

That complaint was genuinely extraordinary, for it reflected something that many supporters had been feeling for some time – that TV reporting was becoming horribly biased.   And as a complaint it was not alone for it followed on a comment  in the Observer on 7 April 1974 that saturday evening football on TV was turning humdrum games (such as the 0-0 draw between Arsenal and West Ham the previous day) into exciting affairs through skilful editing and hyped commentary in order to keep the TV audiences up.  It was quite probably the first time such an accusation was made – and it was undoubtedly true.

Quite where this newspaper awareness of TV’s power to manipulate the reality of football went is not clear, but certainly by the 21st century it was all left behind as the press (or what was left of it) started to invent their own parody of reality, ultimately becoming (in the case of the Telegraph for example) more interested in what half a dozen people who were probably not at the game said on Twitter, rather than the fact that those present at the match would often see an utterly different game from the one delivered to the TV audience.

Leap forward to the present day and an article in the Guardian: “Tottenham’s pursuit of the title turns up the heat on Arsène Wenger” by Daniel Taylor.  This article contains the comment about “the frenzy that seems to accompany every bad result is becoming louder each time. Paul Merson is among those who think he should be cut loose if Leicester or Spurs win the league.”

Now the link that is part of the phrase “the frenzy that seems to accompany every bad result” is one that the Guardian has themselves placed within the Taylor article and it leads to a piece by Amy Lawrence – a piece about the game, which doesn’t really seem in any way to be about the “frenzy that seems to accompany every bad result”.  Rather the “frenzy” article appears itself to be part of the frenzy.

So, there is a frenzy created by the media for Mr Wenger to go.

But rather than just react to the last few results I decided to do some work, comparing the achievements of Wenger during his 20 odd seasons at Arsenal, with what happened at Arsenal in the 20 seasons before.

In case you want to read it, it is here, but I’ll save you the burden of extra reading by summarising.

The article lists the last 40 seasons of Arsenal, and looks at the trophies won.  Arsene Wenger comes out on top – he has achieved more in his 20 years than Neill, Howe, Graham and Rioch did in their 20 years.

And just in case you are thinking that I am including coming second, third or fourth as a trophy, no I’m not (although I did out of interest look at the average position of Arsenal  in the League at the end of each season under Wenger – 2.6 – against his predecessors – 5.4.)

But no, the main analysis is by trophies won.   And to be fair to George Graham, I include the League Cup as well, even though much of the time Arsene Wenger was putting out a youth team in the League Cup games.

So in terms of trophies won, Mr Wenger has done more in his 20 years than the predecessors did in their 20 years – and he’s financed a stadium build as well.  But that is not all.

For then I included an analysis of the league win percentage of all the managers of Arsenal who have managed over 100 league games with the club.  Mr Wenger is not just top once again but is also top by a long way (Harry Bradshaw of whom you’ve probably never heard comes second and Herbert Chapman third).

And, as I went back through those figures an interesting other factor turned up – his win percentage has been going up year by year.

So what does all this show us?   Of course it doesn’t prove that Mr Wenger should leave or should stay, nor does it tell us whether a chance of manager would be for better or for worse.

But what it does show us if Arsenal are going to move forwards after Mr Wenger goes, they are going to need to recruit the best manager the club has ever had.  Better than Wenger, better than Chapman, better than Allison, better than Whittaker, better than Graham, better than Mee.

He’ll have a bit more money than Mr Wenger, true, as he won’t be thinking about the cost of the stadium, but he’ll also have one hell of a task.  He’s got to be the best we’ve had ever to be better than Wenger.

I am not convinced we will find that person, but obviously when it comes to the time for Mr Wenger to go, I obviously hope we do.   But equally I hope we avoid doing a Tottenham.  They’ve got Mauricio Pochettino – but just look at how long it took them to find him.

  1. Chris Houghton 1997-1997
  2. Christian Gross 1997-1998
  3. David Pleat 1998-1998
  4. George Graham 1998-2001
  5. David Pleat 2001-2001
  6. Glenn Hoddle 2001-2003
  7. David Pleat 2003–2004
  8. Jacques Santini 2004–2004
  9. Martin Jol 2004–2007
  10. Clive Allen and Alex Inglethorpe 2007-2007
  11. Juande Ramos 2007-2007
  12. Clive Allen and Alex Inglethorpe 2008-2008
  13. Harry Redknapp 2008-2012
  14. André Villas-Boas 2012 – 2013
  15. Tim Sherwood 2013-2014
  16. Mauricio Pochettino

Remember, getting rid of a manager is easy.  Finding a better manager is harder.

Two Anniversaries – the full list is on the home page

  • 1 March 1913:  The Football League rejected appeals by Tottenham to prohibit Arsenal from moving to Gillespie Road reiterating, as they had pointed out in the 1910 AGM that League rules gave them no control over the location of each club.
  • 1 March 1993: Chelsea 1 Arsenal 0.  Arsenal scored four goals in 14 league matches between 21 November and this game.  During that period Arsenal won just two league games, both away, both 0-1 against Man City and Oldham.

The Untold Books

The latest Untold book is Arsenal: The Long Sleep 1953-1970 with a Foreword by Bob Wilson, available both as a paperback and as a Kindle book from Amazon.   Details of this and our previous and forthcoming titles can be found at Arsenal Books on this site.

From the History Society

Arsenal in the 70s part 22. July to Dec 1978. Surviving without Macdonald.

88 comments to Why the next Arsenal manager has to be the best the club has ever had.

  • Gar

    I think we should go all out for Diego Simeone when Arsene decides to step down- he’s turning Atletico into an extremely competitive outfit in spite of the big two bias in Spain, if he can manage to instil part of his spiky nature to our team he could be a huge success we already have an extremely capable team full of tactically flexible players, we have the infrastructure in place for the next manager to be a success- we just need to stop the board making silly statements to the gutter press while the next manager does his job- no statements about who we can afford to sign etc

  • Wolfgang

    Obviously its agamble to replace Wenger.There are many talented guys out there.People like Simeone,Conte etc.
    However it aint easy .Let’s be honest. Every team wants a manager who can win most of the time. If its the German or Spanish its possible.But not in England.

  • WalterBroeckx

    There are plenty of better managers out there. You can find them even on Untold. 😉 And on any other Wenger out blog. 🙂

  • Gar

    Don’t forget Football Manager, Walter

  • Josif

    Excellent piece, Tony. I’ve already commented on the history page but I will summarize my comment here:

    I actually think we don’t have a reason to be worried. Wenger’s heir won’t have to think about off-the-pitch issues (availability of the training ground, stadium building, stadium debt, shaking off Boring Boring Arsenal label, alcoholism of the players etc). He will have a core full of players in their best years unlike Moyes at United or, indeed, Wenger when he first arrived.

    They say a smart man learns from other people mistakes and a fool learns from his own. We have a great example of Man United who have struggled to replace Ferguson for various reason. Ferguson left his heir with a team full of players past their best or on the wrong side of thirties. I knew his heir would have to spend 200 million pounds to reconstruct the team but Moyes didn’t do it and United fans don’t have patience for Van Gaal who actually produces big players.

    Another mistake made by Manchester United was their decision to allow Ferguson to pick his heir. When you give that decision to a man with enormous ego, you always have to consider his fear that his heir would do a better job. Maybe that’s why Ferguson went with Moyes, a man for whom 6th and 7th place was considered as over-achievement.

    When Arsenal decide to pick a new manager, he will have to tick a few boxes:

    -he will have to realize Arsenal FC are the biggest club in London, 3rd most successful club in England, 2nd most consistent participant in Champions League and the most successful in the history of FA Cup so only top results are expected;

    -he will have to realize we don’t accept racism, xenophobia and cheating (which means Laurent Blanc should think about Chelsea);

    -he will have to realize that the Arsenal way of playing is something he has to oblige as the bar has been raised during Wenger-era);

    -he will have to be a gentleman;

    -he should be between 48 and 55.

    Josep Guardiola was my choice as he ticks all the boxes but he went for oil money. Diego Simeone has ever chance to become a Mourinho with a huge footnote: unlike Mourinho, Simeone doesn’t have an inferiority complex because of his playing career. Simeone has won Primera with Atletico and could give us the edge over endless bags of money from Manchester and other part of London.

    Also, I wouldn’t give Arsenal to someone who hasn’t had a managerial career. That means no Henry, no Bergkamp, no Vieira. Being a great player doesn’t make you a great manager. Hell, Henry was a crap as our skipper and the best Arsenal player at the same time!

    It will be a difficult choice but I’m not worried.

  • Tasos

    Once Arsene Wenger has departed maybe Arsenal should go for Mauricio Pochettino (Removes tongue from cheek)

    In the meantime there’s plenty to play for this season. A premier league title and/or a record third successive FA cup is up for grabs.

    Such bad times we live in us Arsenal fans.

  • Saadman

    By best, you mean the “most successful”. If someone comes in and wins us 6-8 trophies in 3 seasons, people will say he did a better job in 3 years than Wenger in 20, ignoring the the unfortunate circumstances that our club had to endure during Wenger’s reign and how the more successful manager had it easier than the Frenchman by not having to cope with those adversities.

  • Milan

    This season isn’t over but unlike Petr Cech, I don’t expect the table to look any different next weekend, other than Leicester having extended their lead. Hopes of them hitting a sticky patch are running out time. Come Sunday, there will be nine Premier League matches left. Time is not on Arsenal’s side.

  • Nicky

    Not sure why the next manager of Arsenal is being talked about this early. Arsene’s current contract doesn’t end until next season and much success can come our way between now and then……leading no doubt to a contract extension!
    In my inevitable descent into senile decay, I often dream of the immediate post-Wenger times. Who the new manager will be, his policy and tactics. Would there be a mad spending spree. Would our Club become a sheikdom, an emirate, a sugar daddy’s plaything?
    Would a futuristic Arsenal become a latter-day Chelski or Man Citeh?
    You see, the problem I have with today’s headline is that the next manager MAY NOT turn out to be better than the best one we have ever had. 😉

  • Adetunji

    hmmm….I don’t know how people define success. but I believe that success is when you’re happy or your boss is happy with what you’ve done in a career. I don’t believe there will ever be a more successful manager than Wenger.except if we relocate our stadium n build a 100,000 capacity all from the club’s purse n still compete with the best!

  • Josif

    @Milan, Kante is out for two games. They have to deal with Pulis and Watford. Norwich were close to nick two points off them. The pressure is raising and they could explode.

    I think Liverpool-City and West Ham-Spuds are really big matches for us. We need Reds and State Aid to do us the favour.

  • Tom

    Arsene Wenger isn’t going anywhere and under the current model is still the best option to lead the club.

    The majority owner clearly doesn’t care about football, not even the American version, and since he’s become the majority owner of the Rams- the crown jewel in his sports empire, they have had six consecutive losing seasons with a combined record of 36-59 -1.

    Wenger is to Arsenal what Warren Buffet is to Berkshire Hathaway and no amount of disgruntled Arsenal fans is going to influence Kroenke’s decision, as long as the right numbers keep coming in.

    Steady appreciation on his investment with an occasional bump, the sort moving the Rams across the country to LA will provide ( $1.5B), is all Kroenke requires.
    He couldn’t care less if Leicester or Tottenham pip Arsenal to the title this season or the next, because trophy winning is not a requirement in Kroenke’s world, wealth building is.

    Arsene’s job is as safe as it’s ever been.

  • Fishpie

    I love this analysis and the idea that comes from it. It’s very clever Tony, as always. Based on trophy success stats and win rates etc, compared with our past managers, the only logical conclusion is we currently have the best manager we’ve ever had and, here’s the crucial bit, by implication, the best we are ever likely to get. This is logical and fair enough.

    But the Arsenal managers you are comparing Mr Wenger’s record with are Terry Neill, Don Howe, George Graham and Bruce Rioch. All fine Arsenal men, most achieved trophy success. But they weren’t Matt Busby, or Shankly or Fergurson or Guardiola or Mourhinio. Now these managers achieved even more and were, simply put, of a higher order.

    Greater managers have existed before and that’s the standard the club should be setting itself, not cowering at the prospect of losing a manager who has been great for the Arsenal for sure, but not so great that he gets a guaranteed job for life especially when much points to him not being as great as he needs to be anymore.

    I’m only responding to the logic of your piece Tony, the fight isn’t over yet this season and Arsene still has a chance to prove me wrong.

  • Tasos


    But wouldn’t a successful Arsenal team be more beneficial financially to any shareholder?

    If your right then how has this man accumulated so much wealth with that attitude.

    I’m sorry it doesn’t add up.

  • Bleeding gums Murphy

    Interesting article Tony. My only hopefully constructive criticism is how polarised you and Walter (at times) and certainly lots of your readers have become. If anyone dares critique Arsene you become defensive and put them in with your polar opposite. I am struggling to have much optimism at the moment though will be over there tomorrow and watching Sunday and willing us on to victory. If we fail this year then I hope Arsene resigns with dignity. As much as I love the man it does appear he has become stale and blinkered. It may be that we need fresh ideas to take the team and club forward. Just like we did when we signed Arsene. I will keep the dwindling faith I have in him now a little longer and see if he can pull a rabbit out the hat.

  • para

    We need to petition the TV companies to show the game. We are not interested who is in the crowd, to see the managers sitting on bench or anything like that when the game is playing. It should be just football and ALL replays in a corner of the screen. At half time they can then show the full screen replays.

    “Paul Merson is among those who think he should be cut loose if Leicester or Spurs win the league.”
    Well, i think there are many more who think that today, me included. It is not because of any particular bad result, it will be because it is shown that AW has come to a stand still now.

    “Remember, getting rid of a manager is easy. Finding a better manager is harder.”
    The longer Arsenal wait, the longer it takes for a new manager to bed it and create his team, all the while Arsenal seems to be going backwards.

    As stated above, Arsenal is at a stand still, even going backwards. Change is needed now. What ever happens end of this season(if by some LUCK we get FA and PL or even CL, it can happen), change has to take place. Everyone has sussed out Arsenal, and without change and new ideas we will be at the same place again next season.

    I’ve said this before, and got slagged off:
    Our players are neither spontaneous or innovative, they play to a certain pattern, which is brilliant when they are focused and sharp(sadly as we know, they are not that every game) and is rubbish when they are not.

    They end up looking lost when their attack and pattern keeps fizzling out, and they have no where else to go. They start to foul opposition players more, make more mistakes than usual and hang their heads.

    All this i have observed over the last 3 seasons, and this season will be the 4th one this is taking place.

    If anyone of our ex-players was going to be appointed, they would surely be sitting alongside AW and Bould? That this does not happen shows either they do not want to sit alongside AW or the Club does not want it. I tip for the former really.

    So, to summarise, change has got to come now, too long have we suffered some mediocre performances, and by performances i mean, lack of leadership, lack of determination to try different things when “the pattern” does not work. Trying to score the first goal, this does not always work, and especially when the other team scores, we mostly tend to drop our heads which usually lead to another goal against.

    AW needs to check out the opposition, create game plans(plural) and stop relying ONLY on the players. They have not always got that which is required to fend for themselves out there alone when things go wrong. Many times they need that input from manager or even a leader on the pitch.

    With all that, the team can be winners if these things are addressed, and we are left wondering why they are not addressed.

  • ARSENAL 13

    hahaha…Seriously?? Tom trophies mokes your business more profitable. More in prize money. Isnt it??

    we lost to Man Utd, and we are all pained by this. OT has to our bogey ground. Therz no other explanation Or is there something more scientific at work here!!

    All this loss has done is make our way to the title more hard. Therz still everything to fight for. Instead of speculations about Mr Wengers future, why not support the team and back them with all our strengths.

  • Milan

    Tom, if we had not won the 2014 FA Cup, he would have left. His contract was up and I think he knew he could not have stayed. But we won and he got a new three-year contract, most likely principally to win the league within that three-year period. We are heading towards the end of the second year of that contract. Wenger is not going to be sacked. He is not going to resign. He would only do so within that contract if we could not qualify for the Champions League.
    However much anyone might want Arsene Wenger to go, a) you cannot leave a void, so say who you would replace him with, right now, and b), he has a further year to go on his contract. So, right now, Arsene Wenger has a season and a bit to win the league. If he does it, he will get another contract. If he doesn’t, he will leave Arsenal at the end of next season.

  • Tom


    Wealth generates wealth and while no one is questioning Kroenke’s business acumen, the game has been rigged for and by people like him for a long time.

    Here’s an example for you. American cities in order to hold on to their football franchises will accommodate the craziest demands put forth by owners threatening to move to another city.
    Updates to stadiums or new stadiums ( partially at tax payers expense) are a common practice within the NFL, and municipalities will do everything to hold on to their prized teams.

    Stipulations guaranteeing certain features and additional upgrades to existing stadia to match industry standard, at tax payer expense of course,
    are a common place within the NFL.
    If a bunch of owners decide to put swimming pools in the end zone, like Jimmy Jones ,the Dallas Cowboys owner did , other cities have to match the league’s standard in their own stadia.

    Kroenke’s extravagant project got the NFL’s approval because it’s a win win for every owner down the road.

  • Tom

    You seem to be forgetting that the contract extension offer was on a table for Wenger way before the final with Hull.
    It was only Wenger himself who might’ve made that decision to quit had he not won the final. We will never know for sure.

    I’m not saying Wenger won’t walk away on his own, but I’m saying Kroenke has no interest in losing Wenger, league title or not.

  • Tasos


    I know little about the NFL. Maybe your right, maybe your wrong, I really wouldn’t know.

    But I do know Kroenke has had success with his sports teams in the past.

    And anyway I’m not sure what exactly people want Kroenke to do at Arsenal, he’s not the owner.

  • jamiestunner

    The fact that Wenger is probably our second best manager of all time cannot be disputed.
    However, a failure to see signs of a regression or stagnation in recent seasons is also criminal in my opinion.

    I remember thinking during the Barca match about how many of our players played do us the last time we lost to them… and how they managed to catch us on the break like they did in that 4-1 many years ago.

    Player names changed, but the manager remains the same, and the attitude of the players also remained the same. Mr. Wenger needs to leave and stop tarnishing the great legacy he built.

    We no longer have any excuses do our failure. We refused to spend like ManC Chelsea and ManU, and we couldn’t win the league. Now spuds and Leicester, with a fraction of our spend are doing better than we are. Leicester are probably just having a flash in the pan season, but they sit 5 points ahead of us with just nine games to go. We can’t claim that we have been handicapped by the spending of the teams above us, because the teams above us spend a fraction of what we do.
    They don’t necessarily have better players than us, but they have a better attitude than we do. They have players with more Hunger. They have a manager that does more with the resources at his disposal than our manager does with even more money.

    We need to stop living in the past. The same way a team/player’s form is judged over 5-10 games (and we’ve definitely had an uninspiring run of form), a team’s current situation can be measured over the last 5-10 years (no league titles, 2FA cups, and consistent round of 16 CL exits)

    We are definitely a good team, consistently better than 15 other teams in our league, but we need to think about being a great team. Wenger might be one of the best managers in our history, but has not proven himself to be one of the best managers in the world in the last 5-10 years.

  • Andrew Crawshaw

    Mr Kronke owns 70% of the club’s shares. Unless he decides to sack Arsene, the only other way for a change of manager will be for him to decide to go. I have been to the past few shareholder’s meetings and there have been no signs of a desire on the part of Stan to change things. I do think that Arsene is reaching the point when he will let the board know that he wishes to move on. I expect it will be at the end of his contract next season, but there is a possibility that he may decide at the end of this season if he feels that the players continue to let him down.

    Finding a better manager will be a real trick, there aren’t many around and most of them are already tied to other clubs.. As others have said getting rid of a manager is far easier than it resulting in a long term improvement in club fortunes.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Agree with the posts saying Wenger is going nowhere anytime soon, unless it is his choosing…or matters unforseen.
    As for a replacement, what the club seem to realize, and many others need to get, Wenger is now what is fashionably called a legacy manager.
    With all the resources going, it will likely take years, and perhaps more than one manager to overcome his departure.
    The WOB think Wenger goes,all problems are over, money abounds…all the reported £200m is given to the manager, each top player gravitates towards Arsenal and nowhere else, we get physical players in that the refs will just let be physical, all happy days from Day Wenger out+1…silly, naive WOBsters.
    There are not many current blue prints for replacing these types of managers…apart from the obvious.
    As far as I can see, the ideal scenario, for a club with a relatively risk averse culture, is for preparing for life without Wenger , for the club to identify, get hold of, and ultimately prepare someone from within.
    This to me suggests Wenger will most likely sign another contract…but of course none of us really know.
    I am not going to turn this into slagging off the board, but agree with quite a few out there, I doubt if there is anyone on that board…at least not without help…with the smallest degree of the knowledge to replace Arsene Wenger. In fact, I do not think their is a board in elite football with such knowledge, that will be a real journey into the unknown.

  • Mick

    I would be very interested to hear from some of the folk (eg Tom) who want to see the end of the Wenger era as to what their expectations will be of whoever replaces him.
    What would be their job description for him in terms of his expected level of performance. Would they expect him to win the Prem League and if so in what time scale? Would a couple of cup successes but no league title constitute failure? Supposing Arsenes successor did not win anything in his first two years would you be clamouring for him to be replaced?
    So come on John and your mates, tell us what your hopes and expectations are for the next Arsenal manager and how long you are prepared to give him should your criteria not be immediately met.

  • Mick

    Sorry Tom, I meant (eg John).

  • WalterBroeckx

    Interesting question Mick.
    Suppose Wenger goes now… then we still would have the same players. As they are useless according to them we still would have no improvement.

    Ah sell them all and buy new one. As can be done probably in football manager computer games. But every person with an ounce of football knowledge knows that is not just buying 11 top players and you have a team that wins everything. Even Real Mad who does this almost every season is running behind Barcelona again….

  • thierryhenry22

    Completely boring discussing the next manager while in the middle of a season. I think Tony’s point has been missed the commenters today.

  • Gunner6


    I asked this question everytime my colleagues/friends who moan when Arsenal lose or win unconvincingly.

    They usually shut up straight away looking bewildered, confused and irritated.

    And I have not even asked who they think should replace Mr. Wenger.


  • jamiestunner


    Our players are not useless (except Flamini), but they are not of the required quality for a team that wishes to be great. Giroud for example would be one of the best second choice strikers in the world, Ramsey is a great utility player in CM, AM, AND RW.

    the main problem is the fact that these good options have become our main options.
    Madrid is always behind Barca because they sign players for the short term, and Barca sign players that are still helping the team seven years after.
    How many players we signed before 2010 are still regulars in our team? Kos is the only one I can think of.

    Even the Barca you speak so highly of consistently sign big names to bolster their squad, while keeping in touch with their legends. Arsenal turn over players as much as any other team (so much for stability). We just run through players of lesser quality

  • Gooner S


    “this I have observed over the last 3 seasons, and this season will be the 4th one this is taking place”. Priceless. That made me laugh out loud.

  • proudkev

    Great article again Tony.

    Pre-stadium under Wengers management our lowest league position was 2nd. After our austerity and the huge investments from overseas, our lowest position under weger has dropped to a disastrous 2.6. It seems the FFM and the experts in the media can all do a better job. Well whoever becomes the next manager, they will benefit hugely from the foundations Wenger helped to build. That is easier to appreciate if you are of an age that remembers football through the thirty odd years preceeding Wengers arrival. It is also interesting taht throughout Europe Wenmger is recognised for the great manager that he is but in England he’s a target for abuse.

    Personally, I think the way Wenger is treated in the media is disgusting. He changed English football for the better. Some of the things he found when he arrived baffled him but it explained why the English National side has been so hopeless since 1966.

    First off the drinking, the poor diets and the late night clubbing. This was all part of our ‘culture’ and one Wenger found alien – so he did something about it. Don’t forget we had Chelsea fan Merson stuffing stuff up his nose, Tony Adams drinking himself into oblivion and half the team were members of the Tuesday night club, a club to celebrate alcohol abuse. Welcome to England Arsene. Even now we get the old school relics like Alan Brazil telling everyone who will listen how clever it is to pour alcohol down your throat. Cue round of applause. Wenger put a lot of the ‘old’ players noses out of joint and some of them havn’t forgiven him. How dare some Frenchman come here and tell the Brits how to behave.

    Lets move onto the ‘English Game’. Wenger said when he came to England he couldn’t believe youngsters were playing on full size pitches in 11 a side games. He said this would hamper technique and that the players who stood out were the bigger more athletic lads. Hence the reason England was technically inferior and why we went for a more ‘energetic’ and ‘long ball’ game. Again, Wenger criticised this and a lot of people won’t forgive him for it. How dare some Frenchman come to England and knock us. After all, we invented the bloody game!

    Wenger was viewed as attacking the establishment and our culture. That was unforgiveable. This is a very good reason why he is sneered at. This will explain why the financial situation during the stadium move was conveniently ignored and the money invested from abroad. Instead of sympathy for a traditional club trying to cut its cloth and a manager with his hands tied, he was attacked with an annual countdown clock. Spurs have waited 55 years for a title, Liverpool have never won a PL title and yet Arsenal get abused for not winning one for the years we became a selling club – despite the growth of the club during that period. Meanwhile the biggest club in the World can’t qualify for the Champions League despite spending hundreds of millions. Yet Wenger did it while selling players and recruiting prospects. (Amazingly, Wenger gets abused for the quality of players we had during austerity and abused for only finishing 3rd or 4th with those players. That’s how bright the hypocrits are).

    I remember reading about Wengers shock when he tried to arrange a training session at our old University facility. Imagine, a Premier League Manager that can’t arrange a training session because the local University have first dibs on the facility!! This is what Wenger faced when he arrived here, yet don’t expect to read that anywhere soon.

    So those who treat Wenger with so much disrespect need to realise that when he arrived, Arsenal was in a bit of a mess. A shared, outdated training facility, an outdated stadium, a drinking culture, kids playing on full size pitches, a reputation for boring football and a former manager that accepted a financial inducement from an agent to sign a player. A club that in recent years had finished mid table, while boring the pants off the fans. Yet Wenger owes his success to the back four that finished 12th!!

    Sometimes there is a heavy price to pay when you over achieve and raise expectation levels. Wenger is paying that price.

  • thierryhenry22

    @bleedinggumsmurphy They are like that because they remember all the times Wenger has been fucked over all these years and downright abused by the media and anti-arsenal arsenal fans. So when he does make his rare mistakes such as other day, it’s easier to forgive because Untold Arsenal actually understands just what Wenger brings to Football and our club. We have a rare gem in our hands and every year since the Invincibles (another season where everyone else was terrible apparently, nothing to do with great acheivement) everybody has to been trying to get us to swap our rare gem for any old beach pebble which has recently washed up on our shores.

  • John

    Mick and Walter
    Not once have i called all our players useless.We have a couple of world class players(Cech Sanchez and ozil),mixed in with 6 or 7 very good players(kos ,belerin ,coq,cazola,ramsey,willshire giroud).Some players though are still here on sentiment,are injury prone or are not good enough for a team of Arsenals standing.I have managed and played at an ok level so im not nieve to think that you only have to get 11 great players to win things ,but what you do need is a manager who is tactically up to date with how the game should be played now which is different than a decade ago.Managers can get stale and philosophys which worked years ago dont necessarily work now.The game has moved on.One major factor in a good manager, and although i dont like him myself, is what mourinho’s good at and that is motivation.You need to instill a belief in a team and be able to motivate them and get them to run through brick walls for you,not to be their best friends and mollycoddle them.This is exactly what leicester are like and where some of their players lack skill wise,they more than make up in their work rate aggression and their will to win.This i dont see in this Arsenal team and that comes from the manager.He is under no presure to deliver like at other top clubs and it shows in how he sometimes sends out his teams.We all like to blame someone for not doing as well as we should .Most on here blame referees ,some the players,some injuries but when its happening year after year there is only one common denominator and that is the person who is in total charge from transfers to picking the team and thats the MANAGER!!

  • MoW

    wenger is living off past glories. a lot emperors do. when he leaves, i’m worried that the club will have to go through a period of turmoil, since everything has been geared around one man. he’s essentially running the entire club and i wonder if anyone has the chops to run things after he leaves. it’s very hard to determine how good he is in the current football universe. he was great 15 years ago. but he’s had 12 years and a bank full off cash to build a team. let’s be honest. very few managers are afforded that privilege. what does he have to show for it? two FA cups and the epiphet “the manager who keeps proving his critics right”.

  • Josif

    I have to mention Simeone again. Come to think about it, his career suggests he could be a new George Graham.

    He won the league with Atletico as a player. They did after million years and Cholo was a leader on the pitch. They did it in 1995-96.

    Fast forward to 2013-14. Simeone won the league as Atletico manager. They did it in the last league match at Nou Camp with late Diego Godin’s equalizer that cancelled Alexis’ stunning opener. Gap between the league won as a player and as a manager: 18 years. Graham won the league as an Arsenal player in 1971 and as a manager in 1989. Gap: 18 years. Even their football is similar – tight defence comes first.

    So, we would basically replace Wenger with Graham v2.0.

    Then, there is a man who is reigning world champion. His name is Joachim Loew. A gentleman, believes in hard work and Arsenal have a few Germans in the team (Ozil, Per, Gnabry).

  • John

    Are you really saying that the game against man utd on sunday was a one off and a rare mistake.??Really..And you honestly think that there is only a few on this site can see what is really happening and that the rest of the world is blind really,?? If thats the case then you really need sectioning.Unbelievable.

  • Mick

    Re your 2.18pm post
    You didn’t reply to any of the points I asked about and I didn’t mention anything about useless players or any of the other stuff you waffled on about.
    I repeat the simple questions I asked….

    What would be your job description for the new manager in terms of his expected level of performance.
    Would you expect him to win the Prem League and if so in what time scale?
    Would a couple of cup successes but no league title constitute failure?
    Supposing Arsenes successor did not win anything in his first two years would you be clamouring for him to be replaced?

  • thierryhenry22

    @john1 We played Barcelona midweek (a fixture every club in England would love to play). United played Midgetland midweek. Still think its easy to call our players and lazy and not hungry? You’re unbelievable mate. And ungrateful.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Mourinhos rep for motivation is now somewhat diminished, his qualities are at best temporary.and the very best …witness their performances now they are playing for their manager.
    Great points as usual Proudkev. Funny how the past plays tricks with ones memory…age can of course be an advantage…and a disadvantage on this front.
    People have fond memories of GG, so do I , he did great things. But he had his flaws, as you say, the ending was not so great.
    Wenger critics cite lack of ambition….remember the same claims back in the day, when we were regularly losing key players to Juve…Utd…Derby county..Everton, and probably Cov for all I know.
    And some want their Arsenal back, I would assume they are referring to some happy time under Wengers tenure
    If there are things wrong or need improving on the playing staff….and the last result and recent performances do suggest a need for improvement, I am sure Wenger will be working to put it right
    But we can be comforted, if Wenger goes, there is always the man a few forums/blogs fairly recently suggested …almost in unison….Owen Coyle, cometh the hour, cometh the man…

  • thierryhenry22

    Haha the FA Cup is getting dragged through the dirt at the moment by a lot people. The most famous domestic cup trophy in the world- suddenly it’s useless and not an achievement.

    COYG please win the league this year! I can see it hurting even some of our own fans lol

  • MoW

    wenger’s hit his glass ceiling. he can’t operate at a higher level. he doesn’t know how to win the league and he doesn’t know how to win CL knock out games. granted, he’s the master at finishing third or fourth. but that’s his ceiling. it all depends on expectations. if you think 3rd or 4th is the club’s ceiling then you must think arsene is great. lucky you. if you want that ceiling removed then you’d likely prefer a change of manager. wenger is groundhog day. every fan, blogger, ex-player, pundit and journalist knows how it ends before the season starts. like i said, wenger is brilliant at proving his critics right, again and again. yawn.

  • Fishpie

    Mick, Gunner 6 and Walter:

    I haven’t quite given up on Mr Wenger. I owe him my greatest supporting days. But I admit I am close to @BleedingGumsMurphiy’s viewpoint in that I hope Mr Wenger pulls the rabbit out of the hat this year but if he doesn’t I hope he resigns with dignity.

    As to your questions:

    Q:What would be your job description for the new manager in terms of his expected level of performance?

    A: My jon description for the new manager would reflect my ambition for the club. His job is to build a team that can seriously challenge for the Premiership title and the Champion’s League.

    Q: Would you expect him to win the Prem League and if so in what time scale?

    A: I would hope to see progress by the third season in terms of a decent squad emerging, a football style established and some form that demonstrated there is real hope ahead. I would expect him to challenge for the title by his fourth season and sustain it over another 2 or 3 seasons.

    Q:Would a couple of cup successes but no league title constitute failure?

    A: Ultimately yes, unless the cup was the Champion’s League. Cup success would always be warmly welcomed especially as it helps build confidence and believe and sets a standard of what the club should be doing but if there was a real sense of momentum in squad, form and progress I would not hold the Manger to account in the League or FA Cup.

    Q: Supposing Arsenes successor did not win anything in his first two years would you be clamouring for him to be replaced?

    A: No, 2 years is not enough but if a Manager came in who clearly did have the respect of the players and did so badly as to take us towards relegation, I’d reserve the right to clamour.

    To all intents and purposes, I like the way Arsenal used to do things. We’d give a new Manager a few years to build up something and after some success, we’d then give him a couple of years to rebuild and then, if the rebuild didn’t work, come to and agreement to part company. It felt fair to the Manager and fair to the fans.

  • John

    Firstly, for a new manager coming in would get time to introduce new regimes new players and to stamp his mark on the club.He would not get 10 years of making the same mistakes year on year and improvements would have to be made.Targets would be set and would have to be met .The targets wouldnt necessarily mean finishing 4th every year and making the club money.Making the club sucessful would be.That means winning trophys.
    Thierry yes we did play barcelona last week and although there is a slight glimmer of hope the realism is that theres more chance of the aggregate being 6 or 7 -0 over the 2 games.

  • John

    Oh and thierry whats ungrateful about one of the so called top and richest teams in europe winning 2 trophys in 12 years and not finishing in the top 2 in over a decade.And we cant even use the excuse about playing great football anymore because what i’ve seen on the whole over the last few years on the whole has become predictable and boring.

  • Mandy Dodd

    TH22, the FA Cup is only getting dragged into the dirt by those who say it means nothing, but many of the same who were crying , phoning Adrian Durham for solace, and generally throwing their toys out of the pram when we lost the ..league cup.

  • porter

    What would I want from another manager with the same squad ? Or even a new temporary coach until the season end.
    Difficult to say but perhaps a few fresh ideas. It would seem that some of our squad appear to be ,shall we say ,. a little stale and are having problems with self motivation. We also seem to be falling between the stools of being a pass and move team and a more defensive hit them on the break one.Frequently we end up hitting long balls to Giroud with supporting players too far away to get on to the loose ball which gives the impression that certain people are not trying. Perhaps making the attack a more cohesive force might bring these players into the game and restore their form . ,We could try switching Alexis to the right so that he goes down the line instead of cutting in from the left a move which defenders have worked out.If Theo were to do the same from the left , who knows what might be gained , it would certainly make the other team think because it would not be in their game plans . Put Danny and Giroud up top , play three at the back when teams are bus parking.

    I’m not saying all these things would work but they are different ideas and if you do go for change the only reason for doing so is to reinvigorate our team ,they are all capable players but they seem to have lost their way a bit.

  • Col

    Instead of comparing 20 years of Wenger with 20 years of other managers, wouldn’t it be more instructive to ask how Arsene Wenger of 2016 compares with Arsene Wenger of 1997? He has a wealth of knowledge and experience, but one thing that happens to all of us as we get older is we tend to prevaricate more, are less decisive, and get set in our ways. Is that true of Arsene Wenger? Is his heart still in it? It would be more of a surprise if he was immune to the effects of ageing. He will retire eventually, the question is ‘when’ not ‘if’. I think he could go another 5 years, but I would be surprised if he actually did.

  • proudkev

    “but he’s had 12 years and a bank full off cash”

    What a load of bollocks this statement is.

    I don’t mind conctructive criticsm but this kind of ignorant horseshit drive me bananas.

  • porter

    Wenger 19 years 6 cups …3 leagues
    Graham 9 years 1 cup…..2 leagues …2 league cups ….1 European cup winners cup.

    Close run thing.

  • Rosicky@Arsenal

    I feel sorry for the WOB suggesting Wenger has lost the plot.
    They simply forget how we beat United and above all Bayern this year at the Emirates.

    Even the first 70 min against Barca were a testament to Wenger and the teams brilliance.

    Also it is hard to digest that we stand 3rd at the moment ahead of United livepool city chelsea and the Wob are back in force after just one poor result.

  • Mick

    More waffle. You still haven’t answered properly.
    I refer you to Fishpie (4.26pm) for what constitutes a good intelligent answer.

  • Ben

    Can anyone tell me how is Simone with the Atletico youth players?

  • Pat

    Funniest bit of Arsene Wenger’s press conference – when he thanked people for caring about his future.

  • proudkev

    John, MOW and Tom

    “and thierry whats ungrateful about one of the so called top and richest teams in europe winning 2 trophys in 12 years”

    Caught out again John posting in multiple names!! You havn’t even got the brains to alter your comments or you grammar mate, what a clown.

    Agreeing with yourself and hitting the dislike button 3 times probably turns you on. It never ceases to amaze me that people actually do this. It is a sad indictment of social media.

    That is why I take a lot of the WOB comments with a huge pinch of salt, idiots like you who just see this as a game.

    So let’s play the game:

    Please explain your comments and use ‘evidence’ to support your comments:

    1. How we had equal parity financially in each of the 12 years with our main rivals.
    2. Why you expected us to out perform Man Utd, Chelsea and Man City in EACH of the previous 12 years.
    3. Why you expected a team with below par players, you have repeated this a number of times, to achieve success
    4. How selling your best players to rivals, shopping for prospects, while others have a nett spend of circa £100m is not relevant
    5. How we had enough money in EACH of the last 12 years to win the Champions League or the Premier League and why it is failure not have overcome Bayern, Barca, Real, Man Utd, Chelsea etc in each of those.

    6. Why you make post under multiple names.

    Come on John, Tom, MOW and whatever other names you use, please provide the supporting evidence on which you base your multiple, repetitive claims.

  • para

    Gooner S
    March 1, 2016 at 2:09 pm

    They are serious concerns for me regarding the consistency of the team. It’s no go to say other teams are also inconsistent, our goal is to become the best, that means work, work, work.

    To rely on the misfortunes of others does not bring out our best.

    We have a squad that has lots of skill and fire and when it clicks, then the passion and determination is also there.

    If for some reason it disappears, then i would expect them to find out why and try to rectify it, but what i see is the same pattern, on field as off field.

  • para

    Maybe the clue to the Manu game is the comment AW made that he feels sorry for VanGaal?
    I wonder.

  • Menace

    I haven’t read all the posts but just skimmed through the John (still smells needs harpic).

    Oh Fishpie! of a higher order Mourinho? As Wenger says, you are naïve.

    Para – sorry for you. The only one going backward is you & there are several in the same direction. Your instructions for Wenger obviously make you feel champion, have you considered, diet, training regime, medical & physical targets .. oh well that’s not fantasy football is it!

    Tom you don’t need to be wealthy to generate wealth. You need money & it can be borrowed.

    But lets get to Tony’s amusing best to replace Wenger. I would never replace Wenger just move him up a level. His intelligence is irreplaceable. His knowledge is incomparable & his loyalty unquestionable. That us his weakness he does not know how to cheat.

    I would chose either of the Mickey Mice. Riley or Platini both have proved beyond doubt that they can get away with anything & have good contacts to win anything. The wouldn’t need to train a team. They would just buy the result.

    I’m sure Tony will see the joy of having such WINNERS to manage our team. 😉

  • Jerry


    Excellent article comparing Arsene Wenger to prior Arsenal managers.

    You would actually be surprised how well Arsène Wenger compares to the names you mentioned:

    1) Arsene Wenger (in 19.5 yrs): 15 trophies
    3 PL titles, 6 FA Cups (tied for most), 6 FA Community Shields, Win Pct: 57.4%

    2) Bill Shankley (15 yrs Liverpool!): 10 Trophies
    3 First Division Titles, 1 Second Division Title, 2 FA Cups, 3 FA Charity Shields, 1 UEFA Cup*,
    Win Pct: 52%

    3) Matt Busby (24yrs United): 13 Trophies (went 8 yrs w/o a title)
    5 League titles, 2 FA Cups, 5 FA Charity Shields, 1 European Cup, Win Pct: 50.5%

    4) Ferguson (27 yrs United): 38 Trophies total
    13 PL titles, 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 10 FA Community Shield, 2 CL, UEFA Cup Winners’ Cup
    EUFA Super Cup, Intercontinental Cup, FIFA Club World Cup, Win Pct: 59.67%

    5) Jose Mourinho (5.5 yrs Chelsea): 8 Trophies
    3 PL titles, 1 FA Cup, 3 League Cups, 1 FA Community Shield
    At the 3 other clubs: would add 14 more trophies (including 3 CL)

    Pep’s achievements cannot really be compared since he only managed in 2 team leagues where his clubs significantly outspent 90% of the competition. We’ll find out how great Pep really is starting next year.

    The only manager whose accomplishments were significantly better was Ferguson’s. Ferguson did also have a big financial advantage compared to Wenger (£226.5 mil to £13 mil net transfer spend).

    That’s right Alex Ferguson had a net transfer spend of £213 million more than Arsene Wenger from 1996 to 2013 (with the huge sale price of Ronaldo)! So not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

    *UEFA Cup= current Europa Cup

  • Rosicky@Arsenal


    Interestingly uptill last year media and the blogtettas were bemoaning that wenger has the worst record against the top 4 teams since 10 years or so and we only are good against lower sides.Now this year Wenger has the best tecord against the big teams and the top 4 and now there is no mention of such record.
    The media and the blogtettas are ridiculous i would say.

  • proudkev

    Oh dear.

    Side splitting laughter at just how desperate some people are.

    Question: How do you win a trophy you don’t compete in?

    The European Cup Winners Cup win needs to be put into perspective – not used as something to beat Wenger up about because he’s never managed Arsenal in it.

    Some facts some people either don’t know about or are ignoring:

    – The Cup Winners Cup was for domestic Cup winners in the European leagues and not league champions
    – It was the THIRD in importance behind the European Champions League (League winners only then) and the UEFA Cup.
    – The opposition was weaker than in the UEFA Cup and the European Champions League
    – We played 4 teams on the way to the Final, the mighty Odense, Standard Liege, Torino and PSG (pre-oil PSG)
    – We beat Standard Liege 10-0 on aggregate in the secnd round game.
    – In the same season, the UEFA CUP was won by Dennis Bergkamps Inter Milan
    – In the same season the European Champions League was won by AC Milan, who defeated Barcelona

    I am not discrediting the win but adding the missing perspective all too conveniently ignored.

    As we have never played in it under Arsene Wenger, it seems bizarre to even mention it, let alone comparing that trophy to the Champions League. It is as relevant as blaming Wenger for not winning a cookery competition.

    If we had played in it, a third tier European competition, I belive it is highly likely we would have won it but we don’t know do we.

    It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the Cup Winners Cup with the Champions League. I mean, come on you can be anti-Wenger but making up shit like this just shows desperation. And ignorance.

    Pathetic debate sometimes that smells of deperation.

  • proudkev


    Well put mate.

    Yep, as I mentioned above, the WOB’s don’t even bother to debate sensibly. Its appples vs pears and a recyling of stories disproved years ago.

    Evidence based comment is replaced by multiple posting under different user names, comparisons of the European CWC to the European CL and of course wild claims that we somehow had a pot of gold wenger decided not to spend when the oilers went berserk. Sometimes I wonder whether these guys are actually being serious or just trying to wind everyone up. Can youn really be that stupid?

    Mind blowing stupidity = a weak argument.

  • Josif


    I have to disagree with you regarding CWC as some could put the names of our opponents in the last season FA Cup to discredit our success – Hull (relegated later), B&H Albions (CH side), Middlesbrough (CH side), Man United, Reading (CH side) and Villa (just above relegation). You can only beat what is in front of you.

  • Mandy Dodd

    Have to laugh at the media. Had the misfortune to look at the Evening Standard…..don’t bother, it is currently full of anti Arsenal vitriol, then, stumbled on this horse shit article

    Tragic, they write something to this effect every year in their desperation, guess they will get it right one year by law of averages.
    The player doesn’t appear to say anything of the sort…..Spurs…and their friends in the media!
    The first balance of power shift article I have seen this year, which often precludes a bad run of form for their darlings. Maybe the ES are actually secret Gooners in disguise.

  • proudkev


    True BUT the point is Man City, Chelsea and Man United took part in the FA CUP. In fact we beat Man Utd away in the quarter final.

    The CWC did not have the same level of competition, it was a third tier european trophy behind the other two.

  • Gunner6

    Fish pie
    Writing from my phone so I will keep this short.
    You want the new manager to build a squad that will consistently challenge for the title.
    I wonder what is the team doing now……
    You make it sound like there is a formula and human traits don’t apply. Astounding.

  • Fishpie


    I stand corrected. Those Wenger stats do indeed compare very well with the Greats. Thank you for looking all that up and putting me right.

  • GG

    All said and done, Arsene has been our greatest manager.

  • Fishpie

    Hi Gunner6

    Yes, I guess I’m more in the camp that questions whether we are really challenging this year.

    In my heart of hearts I fear we are in the top 4 this year because Man U and Chelsea aren’t. We haven’t been exactly convincing over recent months. But there’s still time.

    Not sure why my comment earlier suggested there is a formula as such. It was kinda matter of fact I guess but I would expect a new manager to have a plan, a strategy and I would expect him to know how to deal with players as people; cajoling them, build their confidence, banging heads together when needed, using some hoodoo psychology stuff etc.

    But yes I would be pretty business like with my manager given the money I’d be paying him.

  • Josif

    Proud Kev,

    PSG played CL semifinals in 1994-95 after winning their group with all six victories and knocking Barcelona out of the competition. Milk-rich Parma won UEFA Cup by beating Juventus.

    Nobody’s taking anything away from Arsene by praising Graham. 🙂

  • Peter Kay

    The PGMO must collectively fall off their chairs laughing (I’m sure they do read this site to keep tabs on what we know of them) at the clamour of so many so-called Arsenal fans to replace Wenger and his “rubbish” squad since they have been instrumental in ensuring Arsenal don’t have too much trophy success by robbing us of a good dozen or more points each season.

  • John

    You think im posting under 3 different names,quite strange.You must only think that there is is only me wanting change and that we arent doing as well as we should and you actually believe that its impossible other people feel differently than you.There are millions of football fans and many websites ,some pro wenger,are seing why arsenal will never win the league whilst wenger is in charge.

  • Mick

    When are you going to answer my questions?

  • john-L

    On the related issue of the insight from “expert” pundits and the media, I noticed the BBC Breakfast News sports reporter displaying the strident press coverage of the serious criticism of all things Arsenal and Wenger uttered by the distinguished pair of Souness and Keane.

    The same pair who have proved to be complete failures as football managers, following playing careers characterised by regular injury-threatening assaults on opponents.

    Criticism from these sources reinforces my faith in Arsene.

  • Zedsaunt

    Fishpie you write, ”But they weren’t Matt Busby, or Shankly or Fergurson or Guardiola or Mourhinio. Now these managers achieved even more and were, simply put, of a higher order. ”

    The era of Busby and Shankley finished with the emergance of Brian Clough. Clough operated under different conditions. To win twice in Europe, as Clough did, with a squad of sixteen, seventeen players, managing a small East Midlands club, requires a deep breath and a long examination.

    Ferguson, for all of his trophies, never went beyond the boundaries of his possibilities. Clough blew everything and created a new definition of what could be achieved. Guardiola and Mourinho, for all their trophies, are job lot coaches succouring the vanities of their owners.

    Wenger has built teams. He has changed how the game is played. He has changed the language of the game. He is the only manager in England who has pulled football away from rugby so that football could be played as football without the diktats that states the plebs are expressing themselves.

    With the Invincibles Wenger, as Clough did in Europe, put his team where his mouth is.

  • DaviidHillier'sSuitcase

    Having looked into Mr Stan Kroenke’s past,Mr Kroenke married the daughter of the Walmart Empire I believe.He owns plenty of real estate,a lot of which,now has Walmart Shops on them.He reputedly inherited,through his marriage $4.2 Bln.
    Judging by the feedback from supporters of his sport’s franchises in the U.S,there appears to be plenty of disenchantment,with lack of success on the field and higher prices at the gate,being a theme.

  • proudkev

    You miss my point.

    Which is:

    Trying to claim Graham won a European trophy while wenger hasn’t to discredit wenger is not fair comment. How on earth is that like for like? It isn’t.

    1. Wenger never competed in the CWC.
    2.The CWC is not the Champions League.

    It’s like comparing winning the Emirates Cup to winning the FA cup. Apples to Pears.

    I can’t believe I have to explain this!

  • proudkev


    Mate, I’m afraid some on here are not comparing like for like. It’s called embellishing the truth to suit a narrative.

    From ‘wenger owes his success to the back 5′ bollocks, to ’12 years refusing to spend’ and ‘ wenger is not as good as Graham because Graham won the cup winners cup’. Unbelievable.

    The same old nonsense, it’s like groundhog day. My Mother in laws got more sense and she’ld give the village idiot a run for his money.

  • Tom

    “John , Mow and Tom…”?????????

    I think you have finally lost your mind. I told you to stay away from LeGrove, it’s not good for your mental health.
    That’s what happens when you ignore a friendly advice 🙂

  • Col

    Proudkev: you may want to trash Graham’s reputation at every opportunity, but he won more trophies per year, and in particular league titles, than Wenger. Wenger is a great manager, but its not like he is some type of god-like figure and all the others aren’t fit to lace his boots. If Wenger had the famous back 4 this year + someone who could score goals like Ian Wright (all Graham’s work) I reckon Arsenal would have a 10 point lead right now.

  • Brickfields Gunners

    After going through this exhaustive article and comments ( skipping over the usual idiots comments , of course ), and reading what everyone wants/ hopes or expects ,I ‘m just curious to know as to what would your options be if things don’t pan out as you wish this season ?

    1. Give up following Arsenal and/or football .

    2. Start supporting a moneyed club – after all they buy loads of players every season. Some often win things too .

    3. Attack Untold Arsenal and other like minded blogs or attack AKBs and other positive sounding persons .

    4. Protest outside the Stadium ,selected street corners or tube stations.

    5. Wear black shirts , black armbands , black scarves or black bin bags over heads. It WAS stylish a few years ago !

    6. Make you tube videos to run down the club , AW and the current players.

    7. Stage protests outside the shareholders homes , offices and other businesses in England , USA And in Russia .

    8. Hit the bottle or do drugs . Or seek professional counseling .

    9. Follow the new or latest anti-Arsenal cult , guru , blog or former player who apparently has all the answers .

    10. Cuss and swear , then pour yourself a glass of two of wine , get on with your life , and come back anew for next season’s tilt .

  • Brickfields Gunners

    For those that chose no. 10 , here’s the next stage to future happiness …

  • Brickfields Gunners

    ‘ Day is over , night has come .
    Today is gone , what’s done is done .
    Embrace your dream , through the night ,
    Tomorrow comes with a whole new light .’


  • Fishpie

    No 10 is what I’ve done for the last 10 years or so. A nice Rioja mainly. But 4 and 7 I’d consider doing. 1 has crossed my mind. Very close pre 0zil season. 1 is something that would end a lifetime’s support but if the club continue to ignore fans who call for more ambition and higher standards, I could find myself feeling this isn’t the club I thought it was or hoped it would be. And yes, maybe we’d be happier apart. I’m not their kind of fan.

  • porter

    The European Cup Winners Cup win needs to be put into perspective – not used as something to beat Wenger up about because he’s never managed Arsenal in it.

    So where do you put the inter cities fairs cup then . Is that of no value either because it was pre Wenger. To many of us that were there in my case after 15 years of tedium at Highbury it was a great night and the one that was a precurser to the 1971 double . You can only win the competitions put before you in Graham’s case his record is that he won the competitions that we were in and his record as I said before is not too shabby.

  • Jerry


    I don’t think Proudkev is trying to knock George Graham’s achievements. Wenger and him are both great managers, but it is not correct to say things were so much better in the Graham era compared to the Wenger era.

    George Graham’s 9 years: 7 Trophies:
    2 League titles, 2 League Cups, 1 FA Charity Shield, 1 FA Cup, 1 UEFA Cup Winners Cup, Win Pct: 48.9%

    Arsene Wenger 19.5 yrs: 15 trophies
    3 PL titles, 6 FA Cups (tied for most), 6 FA Community Shields, Win Pct: 57.4%

    As you said, Graham won more trophies per year, but that difference is negligible, if Arsenal win just 1 trophy this year, Wenger’s trophies per year rate will be higher.

    Ian Wright was a great player, but there are not too many players available that can put goals in the back of the net at his rate. The only players in the PL now that put it in at his rate are Aguero and Costa. (Vardy’s rate is much lower due to his abysmal last season).

  • porter

    And then delete the pre season friendly and ?

  • Zedsaunt


    When you think about it, Graham never had to deal with managing a team in the EPL reality of 24/7 news, twitter, shirt sales and everything else that goes with a spinning globe, and market brands, and instantly identifiable players playing the planet’s greatest sport.

    One game is a great event. Putting one game into a season of 38 games requires a huge effort of focus. The season is a long hard slog. The game without the distraction of the commentators is ninety long minutes.

    These are huge distances – go for easy narratives. The season starts in one year’s August and finishes in the following year’s May. Go for a narrative that you can sling over a ravine.